Investment Leaders Panel: Resource Resilience & Maintaining Momentum for the Green Revolution

[Music] all right so thanks to our opening panel for kicking off the event today so um joining me here on stage we have John Mayor partner and Mining Analyst at SP Angel next we have Jen hang Von cinberg head of global Prospect evaluation at BHP exploration we have Sunny Shaw investment team leader at resource Capital funds and we have Patrick chidley uh partner at 3 PPM so thanks everyone for joining me today kick things off so let's talk about kind of the global macro environment and kind of um you know the impact of everything that's happening right now on exploration and project financing so you know what are some of the implications on the junior sector how is it impacting where investment is going so maybe John you're closest to me do you want to kick it off uh yeah okay I'll try and keep it short because we could talk about this for days we've got plenty of time um yeah look it's it's a tough it's been a tough environment for the mining sector uh as interest rates Rose in the United States and elsewhere around the world money has been sucked out of uh the riskier sectors um and into safer areas now I think I don't agree with it because there is still a degree of inflation going on in the world although it's good to see those numbers coming down uh last night uh in the US and and certainly a good element of control elsewhere in the world it's taken a little while for inflation to come down but that's okay um and of course we've got a couple of Wars going on which we never really like to talk about but it has impacted again how people view the world uh the risk they want to take and what they want to do with their money so um you it wasn't so bad with the Russia Ukraine war um you know people saw that as relatively well contained certainly until recently uh but when things kicked off between Israel and Gaza very unfortunately uh that again had another impact because people who tend to invest uh from that end of the world uh and are clearly taking a more cautious view now I think hopefully that's about to come to an end uh I'm not taking sides here I'm just saying we don't like War at all of any sort um although the concept of throwing Metals at each other is always is isn't so bad for the sector um but uh yeah hopefully this period of uh drisking uh is soon to pass and we certainly see some green shoots anyone else want to jump in well I think one of one of the sort of impacts we've had from from the changes in the global macro has been um the uh increase in the gold price which has come through which um you know is definitely feeding through into the uh earnings and cash flow of the of the major gold producers um and I think as we go through the year I think that that Trend will continue um and we'll see more money going into the gold sector and hopefully um down into the the Juniors as well as we move through and uh the higher gold price environment begins to entrench itself as opposed to look like something that that's just going to get washed away U because for example you know real rates are going to be high and I think that's been one of the sort of reasons why Gold's gone up is that the the the real rate environment isn't really as as as large or as high as as the Market's been been expecting yeah look the only other thing I would add um consistent with the themes others have talked about is is just overall cost of capital has gone up um cost of capital was always high for the mining sector um it's just got even higher and so that means incentive prices need to be that much more supportive for new project velopments uh for them to make economic returns and that's you know that will drive investment into some projects and unfortunately not into others as a result so um you know John brought up a you know an interesting point about kind of the risks and you know how you kind of manage that so I wanted to go a little bit deeper into that um so you know as investors and kind of players in this space have how do you how do you manage um you know geopolitical risk um what do you see as some of the biggest kind of risks but then also opportunities so you know how how do you kind of turn that around into different opportunities for this sector from our side I think geopolitics is in some ways creating more opportunities I mean we're definitely seeing you know a drive towards more local Supply chains and I think that's particularly the case for the Midstream side and the processing side I mean you can't change where Upstream you know resources are and mines are the best quality mins are where they are uh but I think you're seeing a lot more impetus and capital in the Midstream part of the cycle in you know Western economies and and Europe creating opportunities I mean the risks on the other side is you know is really around skill sets I mean the China has been so dominant in all of these markets for the best part of a decade and you know replicating that will not be easy um and managing that is going to be critical to successfully achieving some of these Supply chains outside of China yeah I guess for a company like ours it's it's certainly something we take into account when we look for new new opportunities uh geopolitical risk is is one of the metrics we judge uh new Investments on um and with a a world that is changing we becoming more on certain uh we have to really think through how we're going to mitigate those risks it doesn't mean that any jurisdiction are necessarily off the table but we do have to come up with a very clear justification as to why and do you use like metrics for that or is it kind of a no we have some clear metrics that we need to uh need to look at it they Encompass all all the normal ones right I mean security is is top of mind um also Supply chains as Sunny mentioned really important there's a number of metrics we we judge these Investments against so um you know we're all kind of investors in this space so you know um I thought it'd be interesting to look at you know where where are you currently focused your attention um what's kind of U kind of the big drivers for your Investments at the uh currently and um you know where where do you think others in the space um you know should be focused at this time I think as sun says you you you've got to follow the assets to some degree um but again you you do have to be very mindful of of the countries you walk into uh and as we know not every Mining Company likes to go into South Africa um we kind of agree with that because it's you know for one reason or other they eat management time and you can understand the reticence of boards really not wanting to be there because they got a lot of other another a lot of other things to focus on so if we think of what know countries that we really like um well other parts of southern Africa are really good uh Zambia is particularly popular because it has a combination of uh good quality exporation and uh and and assets particularly in the copper mining area uh if you go across if you go to Botswana Namibia they're very popular go up into countries like Malawi uh that's doesn't look so bad uh even the Congo is manageable although you you you need the right people to manage all that you go across into Latin America uh Chile Peru uh they have their challenges but but they're okay uh and then if you're lucky enough to find things in more developed countries like um Australia Canada even the UK may I may I suggest it you know I think these things are possible these days I think you know although the environmental aspects are very important um there are workable Frameworks now and that that's good and okay there's native title issues in in in many areas but this you have to deal with this one way or another wherever you are the nice the nice thing about Africa is generally the the governments are fairly pragmatic I've always found and that that means you can actually do business there yeah no I would agree I would agree with that analysis uh at BHB we're really focused we're really U driven by our long-term commodity outlooks um which are focused on um on the energy transition copper nickel as well as on on a growing world population looking at how we're going to feed them and that drives our investment in Poes um our primary focus at the moment is copper uh that's really top of the line uh from an expiration perspective and and we're really looking at all the different belts in the world um however taking into account what we were talking about before in terms of geopolitical risk uh security um and ESG metrics so yeah I think there's a there's a definitely um a pull from some of the the sort of Nations that don't have very secure supplies for for minerals in terms of reinvesting um or beginning to invest even in some cases in countries like the UK uh and um and so there's money actually coming in to support those sort of projects um I think Cornish lithium would be a good example um and uh and other countries um in in in areas like in the EU for example not very much mining activity a a brand new uh legislation to um attract U more secure supplies of critical metals and um and I think that that should actually stimulate expiration in Nations that haven't really been explored strange thing is there there's there's Western Nations that haven't been explored very well at all when you don't need to necessarily go to South America and Africa even though they have very strong mineral belts there which perspective that there's lots of countries like Finland for example country I know well um is um is very perspective geologically and uh I think there's a lot of low hanging fruit to be had there what we need to do though is is one of the problems and we'll talk about this in a minute is the financing for for that how do we get finan into um creating those those Supply chains at the Upstream in terms of where's the mineral going to come from it's one thing to build a battery plant but there no good if you haven't got any Supply if a supply has to come from a either from China or from from a country where the Chinese uh kind of have the the all all all of the good deposits there so with this kind of um kind of increased focus on kind of regional Regional Supply chains um do you find local governments are pushing for more exploration and stuff in places that were previously unexplored not really I have to say I don't think governments are really very um focused on on exploration because it's not something that's that's many countries actually understand it's a it's a new thing I mean Canada is very very good at this Australia is very good at this um um but I think a lot of other countries need to kind of look at what's going on and or has gone on in Canada and Australia and say you know how can we copy this how can we bring this over for example in Canada uh you have uh the the the flow through funding um scheme which which allows them to raise more money at lower prices U by taking advantage of of certain tax breaks that that they have that system could be applied in other countries for example in particular in Europe where there's a lot of high taxation um and there's there's a lot of uh you know highly perspective geology and uh I think that that that would be a very good formula for for stimulating uh homegrown supply of some of these these metals and minerals I would agree with you Patrick um what we find when talking to governments specifically in Scandinavia is that there's yes we need to Green the supply chain yes we need to develop more mineral resources but when it comes to how do you then stimulate that in country people are really not tuned into that question I think it's partly to do with uh with as you say long history of under exploration in those countries or no focus on it yeah I think uh on the other hand it's also due to the um the short-termism of politics because exploration of course only pays back in 15 20 years from now right so doesn't earn your votes today actually probably the opposite right um but there are I think things lessons that can be learned from from how some of um how the UK and Norway for example have handled their their own off off shore oil and gas industry and apply some of those models to the um to expiration investment in in Europe and I think there's there's a couple of different models that you could apply there to attract more investment yeah I think governments see it as problematic until they until a project gets close to close to cash flow and then they start working out what they can spend the money on you know and suddenly they're they're they're allocating cash to new Bridges and new new social projects and things that they can the local politicians can take credit for so yeah we're a bit cynical about the way way governments approach our sector if you take Sweden actually they seem to be very PR mining until you get to a certain point in fact the minister of mins is I mean there there is a sea change there um but on the one every project has to deal with with Greta thunberg and her crowd I think they'll get there in the end well I mean the overriding thing is when we're talking about critical Metals uh which will will be essential for the um the energy transition if if if fossil fuels are the are the problem then you have to have more more metals and so I think uh you know even those politicians on that side of things that uh have always you know not wanted uh you know oil and gas and coal uh they have to they have to become more realistic about the need for developing new metal mines basically so how do you how do you grow that Focus uh for governments and investors to start kind of focusing on on kind of exploration projects well I think I think uh lobbying governments would be would be actually quite productive I think um I think there's there's a lot of uh um other Industries have heavy Lobby groups I don't think the mining industry really has a a strong Lobby group anywhere in the world uh except maybe in some of some of the less developed countries uh and Australia um but but you know in in in Europe in the states even I mean you talked about the states the oil industry is very very strong Lobby in the states as we all know um and uh you know for for for oil drilling for expiration and oil in the States you you get a full right off as a as an investor in that project so as a as a retail investor you get a full right off in the year that you spend the money that's a huge advantage that that the oil industry has over the metals industry uh and why would it be different especially now that it's recognized that you know you more copper mines are going to be needed and and probably less oil and gas and coal but you know so we are we are seeing certainly more interest from Western governments um I had a call from the US state department the other day I then met some of their guys on a field trip in Malawi um you know these guys are now out and about suddenly asking questions about what's going on and and looking like uh they're encouraging it uh haven't seen the uh the color of the money yet um but there's definitely the UK and European uh governments are um are headed in that direction for example the French have set up a new critical Metals fund it's a bit slow getting going but it but it is coming it's like like everything the EU does it's a little bit on the slow side um but so long as it does come it's important I think you know we're lucky in some respects the Chinese have only focused really on um metalogy and and buying projects uh can you imagine if the Chinese had really focused on on training up a million geologists as as Joe Stalin did and sent them around the world they they'd be making discoveries all over the place because I'm sure there would be reason be funded uh and thankfully for for the guys in this room and in this conference Hall um they are running around with big checkbooks buying up things that are being discovered the only thing from a western perspective is it's not really good if it's all control by China mhm I think you touched on on a really important point and the investment and exploration by Western mining companies has been decreasing over the past 15 years and I think that's another Trend that needs to change you talk about how are you going to get momentum it's not just influencing governments it's also looking at the bhps we tinos of this world and looking at okay so where are we putting our money how are we managing our investments and can we increase that because if you if you simply look at some data some data from the industry um in the in the 2000s we were spending something like 5% of our um of our our net cash flow on on exploration nowadays is less than one across the industry so there is a general decrease in the amount of investment in this and that needs to be turned around if we want to be able to supply the amounts of copper and nickel that we're going to need going forward and there's an R any there because companies like riotinto and BHP making cash flows that they couldn't dreamt of 20 years ago particularly driven by iron or uh where in some bizarre way they seem to somebody controls the market there because it's the the price is almost 10 times as much as your cost of production you you don't see that in a lot of Industries um so it' be quite nice of the boards of the major companies to push a bit more cash out there but you know frankly the the junior expiration industry wasn't so badly funded for a long time it's only over the last uh year or so that it's really dropped off um and there is money there is money around this it's generally family office money it's money from people who kind of know what they're doing um but we are starting to see green shoots of of other cash flowing it yeah one of the points y there's a great point that you made about um you know the percentage of of Revenue that's been spent on exploration Now versus how it was previously and also I think it's worth pointing out how how it can Compares with the companies that the market itself really likes so you know tech tech companies spend a huge portion more on average of their revenue on on on R&D and expiration is your R&D basically in in the mining industry and so yeah I mean I think there's an argument that uh I I don't necessarily think that the lack of expenditure comes from from uh the BHP board necessarily or the the board of the company um but I I think it's more that there are some investors out there who are always always there to say no give me my money back don't spend any money on exploration because also remember they don't want any new discoverers as well I mean those investors want to see high high prices and that comes from a lack of Supply uh in Rising of course you know Rising worldwide demand so I think I think um probably the investors need more pressure from you know from from if they want to be part of the green transition uh then investors need need need to basically ask their companies to spend more on exploration find more Supply and and and solve the the equation in terms of what's missing there which is uh all of these metals that I think we've all agreed are going to be in short supply you know over the next 10 years or so yeah so we have a question from the audience I just thought I'd throw in a couple of questions um one for Yan Hank I mean maybe you can say why BHP is so determined not to have anything in South Africa I it would be interesting to get BP analysis I'm afraid that K com okay so that's questions not been answered and then I just general questions um do does the panel agree with Stanley dren Miller who in my experience has been write on just about everything that copper is the is the place to be right now um and um a few sort of backup comments would be helpful and on gold it seems to me uh Patrick you were saying how gold you know is partly been driven by the fact that real rates are not really that high and that's probably right but isn't geopolitics a lot to do with it and and and China um just building up its gold reserves to um you know be stronger than the United States and and how do we analyze how that's going to hand out uh yeah I'll take that question on gold then first then um basically um you're right that a lot of the new demand is coming out of China and Central Bank and and central banks elsewhere in the world as well um I I think geopolitics is is driving that in terms of uh what we've seen in terms of the the risk of having your money in dollars and dollar dollar dollar based um instruments um as a as a Sovereign Nation so there is a move to try and and and re uh use gold more more as a as a monetary instrument and I think that's going to be a trend that's going to continue U particularly when you look at the trade between the Middle East and China in oil I think I think Gold's going to become more of a a part of that trade I can't exactly say you know how it will what the mechanics of that are but uh I think that it's going to be um important to to basically take money out of of dollar accounts and and uh you know as we've seen with with the US and Russia there's been a huge problem for Russia having their reserves in in dollars if gold is being dominated by the central banks do you think silver is actually the metal that Western punters will will get active in I think Silver's always going to be more leveraged than gold to to um to changes in in in in in the prices um but I think gold is still for me I mean go gold is is is is is still going to be a very attractive asset to have um for for for punters for for the retail um as well as obviously central banks but silver yeah you're right silver you know can have its day as being much more leveraged um metal to U those changes in in the gold price in fact um and you've got industrial demand growing as well on Silver correct yeah with solar panels and and the likes yeah it's my personal view that gold and silver are default metals and when I say that I mean when people can't decide what else to put their money into they're not sure the Dollar's going to be good anymore if If the Fed starts cutting rates if you're a Chinese citizen and you uh clearly need to to invest and save for your health care for your retirement uh where do you put your money um you're not allowed to buy Chinese property anymore because president C said that properties for living in and not investing in quite like our government to say that actually um but also that uh you know they've had so many scandals with investment groups um and other organizations within China in fact the Chinese government issued $140 billion of sovereign bonds uh I think it was last night uh it's what they call a special Sovereign bond issue the fourth that they've done in 25 years um so they don't do those sort of things very often but they do I mean $140 billion of of new cash into the economy to prop up uh failing Industries is is is pretty good um and actually the their EXP expansion into electric vehicles is so huge if there's any if there's any interruption in that expansion you've got you've got to ask who's going to pay for all that so I guess the Chinese government's going to be there now if they carry on issuing these special bond issues um then they'll have to drop the currency because as it stands I reckon they're pretty close to being accused by the US of being currency manipulators um all all all central banks manipulate their currencies frankly it's just a question of how much do they do it and how much of a problem for the rest of the world is it uh the good thing is China although China's not selling any electric vehicles we're not selling anything much into the US it is managing to sell everything elsewhere in the world um so it is a a juggernaut that is not easy to stop I think in the meantime Western governments have been caught a bit short because they simply haven't done the planning that's necessary they don't have the electrical power they don't have the grid capacity they don't have the charging points uh Etc Etc to to take all these Chinese vehicles so there's going to be a bit of a catchup and the the comment to make at the end of this is it all needs copper I was going to say that is this exactly what it does you've just highlighted the case for for for expanding copper growth I mean we we forecast that by the 2030s we're going to need four times as much copper produced on an annual basis as we have today that's a massive task where you see um uh minimum grades going to I mean for a new mind what's a good minimum grade in that environment that's a great question and and a really difficult one to answer can I can I refer you to YouTube um which is the Oracle of many many engineering things there there are videos on YouTube suggesting mining methods that would take you down to 3% copper in underground mines which and actually they've been around for a while uh and when we first saw these these sort of engineering theories should we say um uh proposed by people like cadelo in Chile we thought really is is that is that possible now it's looking much more likely much more achievable actually I mean yes it requires big big amounts of capex but I did see a mine in the Philippines some years ago that was um that was mining down to 3% copper uh but there was no explosives it was it was a fairly easy mining process an open pit I mean open pit the grade could be point2 or something I don't know it could now but for underground this I'm thinking of underground mining could Elco I think reckon they can go down to 0 three if you've got a a large block Cave of some sort yeah I think that's I think that's achievable um the the flip side of that is that by expanding existing mines and going to ever lower grades we're still um basic basically precluding Capital flowing into expiration to find new mines yeah yeah and that's that that's some of the conundrum that we have in the industry at the moment yeah I would say that also as these Minds get bigger and deeper and more complex the risk of failure in those pits and in those underground workings seems to increase uh you know and that's just a that's just a fact of engineering and nature frankly so I it's certainly still a very good idea to get out there and try and find uh more conventional grades I mean ideally you want to pck the starts at 1% um but you're quite happy mining it down to 0.5 um so so that's what you're heading for and I'm sure these there's lots of scope to find more of these i' agree I think that's one of the points isn't it is there's not enough money going into exploration to find new high quality you know resources in in Copper and other metals um meantime there's a lot of money that's going into expansions into low quality or and uh you know more risky sometimes in very risky countries um and it's those the real special ones are the things that um are found uh through exploration from from scratch I think that that that you know camoa for example would be an excellent example of of a pure exploration Discovery that's turned into one of the world's leading Minds within a fairly short space of time I'd say so I mean just to continue on that what are you know when you're evaluating these types of projects what are what are you looking for um you know and how do you how do you kind of eval valate based on you know whether it's grade or um everything else that you guys have been talking about I mean from our side we're uh we're alternative investment manager so we focus on later stage opportunities that are shovel ready so we we take things from the point that the feasibility studies have done all the way into production or producing assets that are underperforming because the the time for your investment period has to match with our investment Horizon so we are patient Capital with with 10year funds uh but you have to you know realize some of those Investments within a four to five year period so uh we focus we're commodity agnostic but we follow the trends I mean we we definitely like copper and some of the other energy transition materials um we've done investments in over 50 countries so we do manage geopolitical risks accordingly um but it and and quality management teams are also important so we' like to partner with good operators good management teams uh in realizing those things yeah for us we're we're obviously earlier in in the in the value chain with our investments so it starts with good geology right so the fundamentals need to be there uh mineral systems components need to be in place and then it's the same same with what you said good management good teams um good track records operationally safety ESG those are really the uh the attributes we're looking for but it has to start with good solid geological foundations yeah it's a golden Ro always invest in good management but when you when you're looking at expiration companies the management that you start with shouldn't be the management that you end with because the the geologist sometimes you get a guy who's a geologist who can take it all the way through but normally they need to be uh sensible enough to to hand over to more to people who are more expert at the feasibility study stage at the fin financing stage at at the at the construction stage um so finding somebody who is actually going to manage that process in the right way is good and of course trust and honesty are all important in this uh and in fact when I look around the sector 99% of the management teams are great um but they do they need a bit of guidance and actually that's where hopefully uh the involvement of BHP riotinto anglos and others uh can be very helpful yeah and then and just to build on that point uh we do that through our new explore program where we actually do support the management teams in developing their understanding not just of the technical but also of the actual uh development of their uh leadership capabilities their management aspects and and how to take a project forward and find investors so yeah and laring on top of that is an additional comment I'd say jurisdiction uh and infrastructure so a lot of big mining mining projects um the reason why they cost so much is that they're in the middle of nowhere in in in the high Andes or wherever and and they just can't work you know so um infrastructure is very very important and so um earlier the panel was talking quite a bit about um you know these the critical Metals um for the energy transition so um just wanted to kind of see how much how much this you know greater thematic is really influencing um investment decisions as you move forward look I mean from our side it's definitely a Tailwind uh from a demand perspective so we we have our own views on on Supply demand and there's definitely Tailwinds on the demand side for many Commodities but particularly those that are involved in energy transition and and by the way that includes for us you know high grade iron oil you can't decarbonize the steel industry without highr ion oil and that that is becoming rare yes ion know is a big industry but high quality drri is is even rarer um we look at you know copper and then we look at some of the niche Commodities as well um rare silicon you know nickel nickels tough one you know with Indonesia um uh from an investment standpoint and you've seen that over the over the last year or so but I think each commodity has their own specific Supply demand issues that we need to look for but overall the Tailwind in the sector probably hasn't been as good for you know I would say 20 years since you know China industrializations which is which is a real positive I I would add to that I think the when I consider the 30 something years I've been in this industry we we've never had such good Tailwinds um we've never had an electric vehicle Revolution like this that is that is creating so much additional demand it just so happens that right now it coincides with a dip in Risk Capital that's available do we have any questions from the audience before we start to wrap it up we've got another coming back on the aror thing how much do you think aror de demand has been boosted by wind turbines and things like that have you broken out I'm looking at Sunny really because you were talking about Anor I mean have you broken out how much of the demand is is due to this energy transition well I don't think we've broken it out specifically for you know bu you know wind turbines as such but you need you need steel not just in wind turbines but you need it for solar panels you need it for broader infrastructure so I think overall steel demand will continue to follow uh GDP growth so I don't think you get you know a a a huge boost as such from energy transition as you do for other Commodities having said that I do think when you look at the world we're about to go into we're going to go into an infrastructure Le economy globally you know there are not just in places like India Africa which need increased urbanization I think the West are going to go through a reinvestment on their infrastructure spending so I think I think that that broader thematic will drive demand overall you can feel that coming I mean America needs a new bridge all of a sudden in fact it's not the only one uh and there was some stuff on the news uh the UK news last night talking about another new bridge that is required in fact there there are several um so yes I you can see I think the news flow is heading in that direction um and certainly as a way of of restimulating economic growth uh although there is reasonable economic growth in the UK but um but you you can just see it's it's helpful to push things along to spend a bit more money in that direction yeah and and I think if you look at countries where a high uptake of electric vehicles at the moment you start to see congestion on the electricity system which is going to need a major overhaul if you truly want to move to a 100% decarbonized uh transport system thank you I've got a question for you following up on that very point so as we move to the the green energy and we need for you know clean energy let's talk about solar and wind and nuclear where do you see that going and where do you see the big driving for the metals needed for that I can only see it grow going forward um I would add um Hydro to that list um I think there will be an additional growth in Hydro electrical demand I think uh nuclear will be sort of the stabilizer of the Grid in the future uh to basically look at the fluctuations that you get from from solar and wind um but it has to grow if you want to decarbonize the system all right uh we have time for one more question from the audience if there are any before we start to wrap it up all good all right so uh my last question for the panelist is really just kind of some forward looking thoughts for uh the industry for investment um you know some I don't want to say predictions but um you know where should we be focusing what are some kind of key points that you want the audience to take away from this panel uh well I just really share what I'm doing myself with my own cash um because I'm I am investing in early stage uh exploration companies and they do seem to be they seem to be going okay actually uh I mean we're talking about very low valuations in these markets um I put some money into kavango the other day it's actually doubled since I did that it's quite remarkable and and you know they I think they'll make a discovery in Botswana they're working very hard towards that they've actually picked up some Assets in Zimbabwe and I think I'll just make a point that you know some countries look like they're they should be blacklisted but actually people you know there are people who go in and make things work in these places and that's not just good for the for their own companies but it's good for the people in the communities that they serve and where they work and so that's very important I'm going to take it a little bit in a different direction uh if I look forward we've talked about the increased demands coming our way on on copper I think when you look at the overall way in which exploration has been approached over the past decades it hasn't really been a step T but I think with the new technologies that are emerging both in terms of sensors as well as uh artificial intelligence and a combination of those two we're going to see some breakthroughs in in our ability to actually pinpoint where those new discoveries are going to be and I think that is really going to drive uh a where some of the investment is going to go but also where we're going to find uh the next big resources sounds great yeah and I I would add to that I mean maybe not so much a prediction of the future but um you know the sector has been so underinvested for many years and so when you do see green shoot or Demar look I think it's going to take slower candidly I think the energy transition is going to take a long time because you just can't you can't produce 10 million extra tons of copper by the end of 2030 you just can't I mean uh so I think there is the you need to be patient and I think technology is going to increase and drive efficiencies going forward um in in the sector which will benefit and we haven't seen much by way of Technology yet in the sector other other Industries have I think we're behind in mining on that side I agree I think there's going to be definitely some some good um technology driven gains in the industry as we go forward um you know one of the things as I always say about um you know project that we we're invested in is uh you know in the future it it it it's in a country where well people get paid more than they do say in the most African countries but in the future we probably won't have any truck drivers or or or loader operators when we get to mine it in you know 7 to 10 years time maybe so um there's going to be technology coming into the industry that that helps lower costs uh in the in the medium term in the short to medium term though I do have to say I think uh the outlook for gold is very good um I think that uh you know we've already seen a little bit of it and obviously coming you know from from the Chinese demand Central Bank demand supporting that but also the overall investor in the West in the US in particular is going to become much more interested in gold as uh as the FED Cuts rates um inevitably at some point it's being delayed at the moment that that decision making but I don't think they can hold it off for for for much longer can I make one point on AI um there is a company that's majoring on a AI um and has a discovery it's working on in Zambia and that's great but I noticed they're also talking about Ai and hi and the AI only works if you have human intelligence backing it up this is very true this is absolutely true uh that's a good point to end on and uh you know take forward to your meetings for the rest of the day um but I want to thank our panelists for joining me here um early in the morning so thank you

Channel: 121 Mining Investment TV

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Id: OWEASjgXiME

Length: 42min 13sec (2533 seconds)

Published: Wed May 22 2024