Fixing the Financing Environment for Juniors

[Music] my name is PIM please to meet you uh I represent Hawk Point Capital Haw Point capital is an investor in the mining space we typically invest in um in in equity and and see ourselves as partners and want to work collaboratively with management teams to help execute their business plan we take a long-term uh View and and approach uh and very happy to be locked up for many years in order to get the True Value creation that we believe a company could achieve hi everybody uh Philip CLE managing partner of Orion um uh we're an asset manager focused on um all aspects of the mining and metals vertical um the bit that I look after is private Capital so we put together financing solutions to to companies that wish to do really one of two things uh buy or build so it's really construction Finance and m&a finance and we invest right across the capital structure in all Commodities except for fossil fuels um and it's a global business my name is lon sa ER We Run The Kings Road Capital fund it's an equity Focus uh fund on the junior mining space and we invest from anywhere from early stage exploration to development and production and royalty hi Ariel teerman I'm at energy Capital Partners um we do sort of traditional Investment Banking advisory so m&a Capital raising um we do a bit of a merchant banking model as well but for the purpose of this panel we'll sort of focus on our advisory work hi everyone it's uh it's Juan Alvarez from nabari here um nabari is a a private credit fund um we specialize in debt uh mainly to the kind of the the junior the upper Junior market which are getting close to production and cash flow obviously as a debt provider there needs to be some uh ability to to pay us back um but it's certainly we're looking at a space that is underneath uh where the banks and and you know like the traditional lenders will will lend to to mining companies all right great thank you for those um so as I mentioned before we're today's topic is really looking at you know financing and how to kind of make that environment better for the junior space so to things off I thought we could really just talk about you know what are some of the biggest funding challenges that you're seeing in the Market at the moment um maybe I'll start at the far end this time yeah thanks Amy look um I think I think certainly you know this the smart money is there right like people like uh people on this panel uh the streamers the private Equity guys private debt uh you know even the BH PS and the other majors of the world kind of have their you know like their junior exporation funds um but how do we how do we get the you know the the generalist investors in involved because that's kind of you know like generalist generalist investors will often happily kind of uh invest in some you know like tech company uh that has similar kind of risk profile to a junior minor but uh this seems seems to be a dir of investment into into the into the junior mining market right which kind of kind of needs it um so I was kind of talking to a few people like CEOs and Brokers and people at the at the coace and there's there's a real range of you know reasons why people think that uh you know the generalist investor doesn't come into the mining industry one of the common ones was regulatory um but it was funny because some people were saying well um the regulatory environment is too tough we should let the you know like we should relax the rules we should let um the market do what the market does best which is uh you know like um sort the wheat from the chaff and others were saying well you know like it's it's too loose uh and so you get companies who shouldn't really be there uh and giving the rest of the rest of the industry a bad name so I think uh you know I'm not sure we'll get to a to An Answer here today because I think if there was a magic Silver Bullet um we would kind of have already have already you know like implemented it but um but yeah like certainly one of the challenges is getting the getting the generalist investor back into into mining go ahead um yeah I think I mean I think there's probably it's sort of like an overdetermined phenomenon like I think there's probably many issues some of it in terms of the generalist investors but the nature of them you know it's probably more of a macro issue in other words you know when we actually see real indications of rates starting to decline you see a lot of those investors coming back into the into the space um you know I think past that it's it's um you know you speak to a lot of Canadians and they like to point to sort of cultural issues of just the interest in the junior mining space leaving the market and people who traditionally invested going leaving as well I don't I don't know if that's totally the case uh but I think past that it's you have to sort of look at um some of this on a case-by Case basis so you know the the factors that have people investing in gold are very different than investing in critical medals and and base medals and things like that um you know I think for gold it's it's there is some issues like where does gold fit into the whole sort of ESG and critical Metals environment which you know part of the answer is pretty straightforward and for then things in the battery sector I think it's just you know that that part of the industry is still trying to figure itself out I I don't think people quite know where that sector is going and um you know nickel goes from being one of the hottest things one day to to not so much the next day um so you know what are the issues it's sort of like how much time do you how much time do you have well I think the journalist investor that has avoided the sector has done well by doing that uh obviously it's been a tough few years um fed uh basically having the rates high up in the last few years have demolished a lot of the small cap sectors including the junior miners I think because when you're looking at a prospect of getting to cash flow many many years down the line the increase of time value of money is very very critical and obviously it deters from investors looking into you uh as a prospect unless you have a really interesting uh project that would make a difference and what I've seen as I look at the sector for instance in Canada tsxv liquidity rates have come down by roughly 20% year-over-year until a few months ago I didn't get the update in the last one or two months but when the liquidity has dried up like that the effect has been that for every company the amount of money you could raise have come down on average and obviously their market caps have also come down so suddenly dilution became a very big topic and uh and the money that was raised uh were predominantly funding General and admin expenses of these companies to keep the lights on and to keep the companies listed uh if their market cap was on the really small side let's say 10 20 million I mean if we do the basic math if you are having a market cap of 10 20 million and if you dilute by 15 20% a year I mean you're looking at raising 2 million 3 million a year and then if your GNA is one and a half let's say then you only have another million at most to play with to improve your project to expand your project and that money is not that significant to make a um to to answer the questions about geology and other Metallurgy or other other metods that you need to advance uh to to move the project forward so in a way the investors started to fund these companies not necessarily to see results on the projects themselves but rather to keep the managements on board and uh only the really best of the best were able to raise in decent quantities uh to make a difference in their project so it has become a very bifurcated Market from what I've seen there have been a few handful of winners where uh they could raise $2 million plus at one go if they wanted to and they could really Advance the project as they planned and on the other side there were these struggling really micro caps trying to get through the day and uh by diluting themselves and gaining some time hoping for a better market so I think that has been the problem so we need some more liquidity to come in uh to basically change this dynamic or maybe the companies have to have a good look at themselves and see argue what what they're really adding value in the uh in this um Junior mining space uh and maybe slim down their management teams or combine a few ideas together so that their overall expenses versus the money going into the ground uh that ratio basically improves in favor of the investors yeah I think from our perspective a lot of what we do is is Project Finance um and you know we like I said before we invest right across the capital structure um so in debt structures in royalties and streaming off takes and then right into the equity but the hardest thing right now in our space is the public markets um Equity is very hard to come by even for some of the better projects it's quite daunting for companies to even approach the public markets to try and raise that Equity even if it's back sto by parties like Orion very very difficult because the liquidity is not there um and it's when it is there it's only there for a brief period of time so therefore timing is really important as well you know we we are a cyclical industry so unless you're right now in Copper or uranium or something like it is really really difficult to access capital in the in the equity markets even for project Finance so that's the hardest thing right now yeah maybe one or two other points that that I would add um you stating the obv is I think um there's a lot of cap being taken out of the market by by virtue of passive investing so I think we're we've identified the generalist or the lack of generalist interest but that's Amplified by by passive investing which uh which particularly hurts the junior industry uh I would say um what I also believe to be the case is that um not every company out there and and that's a bit to to lon's point necessarily has covered itself into into glory in progressing his project and and truth be told maybe not every project deserves to be funded and the market is effectively funding with a feet it's not a nice thing to say but I think there is some truth in it um at the same time juniors are finding themselves at a really tough end of the market if you only look at what BHP has recently done they've basically said I'd rather buy it and build where W Juniors don't really have that choice and they have to go all the way to develop and and ultimately build and that's been a tough place to be um and then what hasn't helped either is investors just look at a risk return and they look at the risk of the mining industry and we haven't covered ourselves in glory there's plenty of examples out there of of companies that that have stumbled as recent as this morning another announcement of a company that you know was quite a well-known name in the London Market um get put into Administration so so it it doesn't help the perception either when you can invest in Tesla and the likes and earn a pretty robust return on a risk basis as opposed to going into an industry that's tough and then before the weekend we didn't make it any easier either there is another company out there that has spiced the results and if I'm a generalist and I just take these two news announcements over the last week I'll be like thank you very much so I think we're scoring an awful lot of on goals we on the panel here have a responsibility of identifying that it can be done and hopefully we can instill some positivity into the market to say we can find the good projects and we can back them and we can put them into production and show that it can be done but so far I I kind of can't I know we identifi the generalist but I think they're acting extremely rational in the way they do and it's up to us to prove them wrong and to show them that we as an industry can perform can book the returns and can put the projects into production and deserve their time attention and crucially money just uh just to follow on from that how do you kind of make that determination on what can potentially be a a successful investment or um you know what are some I suppose keys that you could share with these generalists that might be scared of entering the industry I I I I struggle with I I think you need technical skills I think you need deep technical skills um and I think the challenge is also that and I'm delighted that we're in a position that we can do deep technical due diligence and can look at what's behind numbers that are presented in presentations and jork reports and 43 101s so I think it it will inherently be a challenge for for a generalist to do that work and to have that angle um but what they could do is is look at the likes of the people on on this panel and and take some comfort from them and from their track record uh of of investing and and hopefully um get behind that I still suspect though that when they do the risk return they're probably more geared towards investing in the late development or early production States as opposed to the the expiration States because of the inherent risks and the the technical qualities that you need to evaluate those risk and and sometimes in my view the ability you need to have to actually get behind the the reports that are released at the exchange and and and look at the real drill database and and do the site visits and all the rest of it which can't always be expected from a generalist yeah I would I would I mean I would say if I was a generalist investor you know don't like don't be a stock picker they're they're not set up for it um you know I would also Imagine that pre sort of 20043 the beginning of the China super cycle there the generalist exposure to Metals in mining Pure Play was probably pretty pretty small um I think they probably felt like they had to join the party when all these stocks were were were running and maybe we're seeing a bit of a reset now to where things were sort of historically I would also like to add that in general when you're looking at the really Junior side of the mining industry Buy and Hold rarely works I mean there always under time pressure to refinance and dilute so you have to really keep a Keen Eye on the financing cycle the news cycle of the company and whether your money is going through the ground to really answer some questions that are to be answered uh so all these things are uh important for you to keep track so you need a really dedicated time frame if you're um in that segment of this mining uh mining companies obviously if it's an advanced project uh then you can take a maybe more longer View and relax because if there's value that is proven hopefully time will help you to realize that value uh I think some of the critical aspects of success uh in your question I think obviously geology is very critical you need the right set of rocks that can be M uh extracted and processed uh and obviously knowing how to finance that operation is very important sometimes I'm seeing companies with a good Prospect doing a really bad choice of financing and suddenly they're creating an overhang in the stock performance and that that's sad to see because obviously you rarely find really good quality assets so if they're mismanaged on the financing side that could also hurt investors and um what also needs to be highlighted I think is the difficulty of getting social license in today's context in many geographies so it has uh been delaying these project implementation Tim taes a lot getting permits uh and uh I mean what used to take maybe 5 to 10 years uh is maybe in taking double the time now I read I I I heard a statistic that from the real start to production the average is now 29 years I didn't do the study I don't know how it can be done but uh but the um but the idea is it's gotten much longer than before and obviously time is when you're investing time is very very important and that delay of time is a big issue I think in the in the financial returns of these Investments I think it um it really depends on what kind of investor you are as to the work that you need to do so and there's kind of two ends to the Spectrum so there there's guys like ourselves that will have you know reasonably large funds of say two billion do and there'll be sort of 20 average $100 million investments in that fund so so with in that context the amount of diligence that you need to do for each of those Investments it needs to be extensive because you have such concentration of risk um and so that's exactly what we would do so we we know we look right across the company we think about not not only downside by the way but also upside in the con concept of optionality around our investments but in terms of the diligence that you do it pervades everything and I would say that you know ESG actually is now really top of the list something that's just crucial for us and our LPS it's a really understanding the sustainability metrics of the company the Frameworks that that company would apply is crucial before we can make an investment right through the technicals um like Pim was saying um and really focusing on you know what is the question you're trying to answer in a diligence process now what is the risk that you need to address what is the risk that we need to mitigate is the team capable of doing so is the team set up to achieve what its objective is um and then really you know increasingly because let's be honest if you get the commodity call right a lot of the rest can be forgiven understanding the market environment in which you're investing is is is absolutely key and then on the other side if you're a generalist investor and you have you know 150 names in your portfolio of small investors you just cannot do the same level of diligence and that's a problem for mining because we are quite a technical industry and so what do you do if you're a generalist like that well I think you need to focus on where the liquidity is first and foremost because like you say you know you might need to be in and out and then secondly I think that you know you know either you you you follow some of the bigger names that invest in the space you know black rocks and that kind of thing and and take comfort from those yeah just just to add to that um I think we've we've probably all read that that kind of report or study that said that you know mining amongst young people is at the bottom bottom of the list of Industries where people want to like sorry where young people want to enter um lower than oil and gas um and so so mining has this real uh like it's a it's a dirty word right uh nobody wants to enter the industry and the the ESG angle um I think is an opportunity for us right the energy transition we can kind of rebadge ourselves as as as an attractive industry to to you know enter into to invest in um all these young people who are on their kind of their phones and their and their iPads have no idea that the medals that go into them have to be mined out of the ground uh and so I think that you know like again us as an industry have like this have an opportunity to kind of advertise this this kind of this positive for for society and I don't think we do that very well at all at the moment I mean can we talk a little bit more about that um you know ways to improve the public perception for the mining industry um is a lot of it do you think tied to that energy transition discourse and kind of demonstrating what you know the potential is moving forward for you know EVs and everything else I certainly think it's an opportunity to to kind of reset right the the mindset of the of of the public because we're not going to reset that mindset uh with you know gold or you know Iron Ore but we have a chance to reset it with things like that things that are in you know medals that are involved in the in the energy transition sector well I think I think it's a really crucial Point actually um you know it is an opportunity for us in the space we certainly make a big point of it and our LPS which comprise um you know State Pension funds of the US Canadian Pension funds um and Middle Eastern Sovereign wealth they don't really want to talk about gold anymore they want to talk about decarbonization thematics and how we play into that um and so it's you certainly got their attention um I don't think that the mining industry as a whole does a particularly good job of advertising what it does that good in the world um but you know I'm not sure what what more we could really do yeah I don't I don't know if um you know I think I think people tend to think I think it's human nature to think that if you just sort of change the message a bit it's going to sort of change people's perception I I sort of suspect that um once if young people sort of see lots of people making lots of money investing in the junior mining space magically their sort of like aversion to it will will will change um you know the critical Metals the critical Metals in energy transition space is certainly like the theme that is supporting the mining space at the moment um but um you know I think even that has its own issue ues because uh if if you're if if mining is now claiming that it's part of a part of the uh Tech value chain then it's going to be subject to the same ups and downs as as as as the tech value chain will be and I think that's you know that's a very different story than sort of long-term Chinese urbanization right when you're saying we're part of sort of battery chemistry now I do think if you look back a year from now to here um you can take some comfort that progress has been made we're not there yet and I think everything you're saying is is correct but um if I look at and I don't think I'm at a particular aggressive algorithm but if I look at Reuters Bloomberg and and financial times the number of articles that they start covering on EV thematics and and the sourcing of it in combination with or or you know spurred on really by by BHP approach for Anglo gives me hope and and definitely makes me feel that we have made progress over the last year you know and I'd like it to to continue and people starting to jump on to the thematic and they start to also recognize slowly slowly but you know I'm not getting the craziest looks anymore at at cocktail parties and the likes when um you know when you mentioned the importance of mining in the in the EV transition and that was a very different thing you know one even two years ago so I think we're making progress that's not to say we're done but it it is it is slowly slowly improving and if we keep just not scoring own goals and doing progressing what we have in our control uh then I'm actually quite quite hopeful um on the point of of young people we all have a responsibility here right so we all have a responsibility to talk to you know our children and our colleagues and and our friends because a lot of it is based on on misinformation or or no information and just simply no knowledge so there's a responsibility there that that we have and and we should take very very serious yeah I think I think people take it for granted whatever our Modern Life uh is based on obviously it's coming from the ground uh in different variety of products that we use every day uh so it's not I think limited to energy transition which is a good packaging I agree but I think whatever we use is basically was minded or grown from the ground so people just don't think about it and appreciate it they just go to a store and get it and they don't think that it had to be created like that so And when they see an operation uh where people are working mining certain um certain minerals out of the ground they might reject to it if it's in their backyard because it doesn't look as good so I think that's that's the missing link I think Unfortunately today we as Society we've lost touch of uh the end product and how it's how it's created so can I just just to jump on something Phil said I think I think the question for the junior mining space um is is really around the gold gold companies you know the gold companies still by number by number make up the majority of the junior mining space and they you know you sort of see I think gold company management teams and Boards trying to figure out where they where they fit into this this transition thematic um and how do they sort of convince people that it's better to invest in a junior Mining Company rather than an ETF or into Bitcoin if they sort of take that view of um you know governments harming their Fiat currencies so I think the question a lot of that Junior mining question of lack of funding for the Space is really around you know exploration stage gold companies I think uh before I continue on with my questions do we have anything any questions from the audience so we've talked about the energy transition and U money coming from LPS and the like into the sector for that but what about um energy security has there been much pressure or Capital flowing into the space um people looking to uh secure materials I guess um with China having really quite a strong grip on the supply chain of materials there's a need for Western countries to start producing developing materials but it doesn't look like we can do it half as efficiently as China big question there um and just wondering money pressure have you seen money coming from there I could take that one um so I think the Thematic really um is De globalization um and that plays into a number of um interesting Commodities that we've been looking at and and in fact have invested in over the course of the last sort of year or two um and a lot of that is connected with with energy so you can think about the supply chain for example for things like rare Earths and graphite and high Purity manganese these are all really controlled by China um some of them through the mining and processing but all of them through the processing of that material and we don't have in the Western World the capacity outside of of China um but we also don't have this is really crucial across the sector as a whole but particularly in energy transition the human capital we don't have the knowhow right we gave up on that years ago and as a consequence we need to build an industry that is De globalized um if we want to have a supply chain out of China and that is a massive challenge um so it's uh it's a it's a sort of risky investment thematic but something that needs to be done if we are to have a supply chain outside of China yeah and on on more conventional Metals um you know I I'd say the challenge is slightly different um in that we do have the knowledge to extract lithium and um copper and and and nickel um at least till a till a concentrate phase the the challenge really becomes permitting I see that as a bigger challenge in the non-china kind of oecd Supply than I than I see anything else I think that the skill set could be solved the money can be solved provided that there is a clear track on permitting with Milestones that have to be met and that can't be dragged out that the 29 years that that was quoted earlier is is something that's beyond anyone's Horizon and even if it were to be half it it just can't be done and and we ended up voting with our feet and V and and investing in Brownfield operations in an established nickel field um where we already had a mining license because we can't just see how we can risk a decade or more even with our longer term investment Horizon so I think if if governments wanted to truly help diversify their supply away then one of the first things they ought to look at is their permitting regimes and I think the capital then will follow and with that we can upscale people and and get them from elsewhere but without that permitting hurdle I I can't quite see how you can square this away yeah I think I mean I think it's you know um investors aren't sort of tasked with solving the Western world's problems on energy security they they want to make money for their for their LPS I think you you sort of see governments trying to step into the fry to to figure out different ways to solve this and the US has one method Canada sort of trying to figure it out um Europeans are so slowly trying to figure it out and they're trying to invest address this permitting issue as well the time time will tell you know I think there if someone said that a company could get a premium somehow out of having a total totally dellink uh value chain from China there's you know there's sort of a way to address that but I I just like Phil said the Western world's not really set up set up for that at the moment so you know who whose responsibility is that it's not really investors responsibility and actually you're probably at a bit of a disadvantage now if that's your sort of criteria for for investing does it follow on that basically the West needs to take difficult decisions about per team but would would maybe Mr Trump might be the most likely to do that even though may not like him yeah um or was rational he was trying to cut down the process of Permitting within the US like I'll give you one example there was this project in Alaska south32 was involved um and they needed a road to make that happen they worked on it for many many years the Ambler Road um and uh if there's a road there's a real good copper project and we're talking about energy transition copper is very critical as one can imagine so us has this option to create a massive project in in the middle of Alaska if they get this road in and after many years the company get gets the permit then the uh basically the presidential Authority changes in the US a new federal government comes comes in and during the Biden Administration they actually reverse the decision and cancel the authorization and obviously as an investor is also very very frustrating when you can't rely on a permitting process that has taken so long and after all the the company has received the permit to progress the project and it's reversed so um I think there's a I think the the ideology of the um governments are very very critical especially many of the leftist Leaning governments uh are against these type of projects being implemented even though they like to say about how they're Pro uh energy transition Etc so I think it is important that we need a more business mindset at the level of the government's authorities uh who would basically er do a quicker job and more open job in terms of the required procedures to approve a project or not Etc thanks uh just to carry on on that theme uh the investors have to be very careful in the US because if if I can give one example uh for polyat in Minnesota which is quite a difficult State um just before Donald Trump got into Power the Democratic uh leadership there gave polyed its mining license because they wanted to get the credit for creating the jobs before Trump came in because otherwise they they didn't want to see Trump running off with all that credit they got the mining license they thought well hey we're off and then suddenly they got hit with a bunch of lawsuits to stop them from doing what they're doing and they still haven't managed to do it and then I I wanted to mention something it's interesting the point that was mentioned earlier on investors being confused as to what some of these companies are particularly in Canada you know are they gold are they Rare Earth whatever uh or are they cannabis and it would be kind of good if the management teams could just settle down and stick to one thing I mean I get that the nickel Market has been blown up a bit and uh uh so it it makes a lot of sense to say okay we're going to park nickel for now let's go and look for some copper because that's what the world really wants and in fact it's worth mentioning today that copper prices have just hit a new high at nearly 115,000 a ton and for the first time that I can remember suddenly all the Traders are scrambling around trying to get physical copper to bring to take back into the states to fill in the short positions and I wonder if this suddenly means that actually the US might not have enough copper for proper functioning markets because as as Reuters pointed out this morning China is smelting 50% of the world's copper and therefore they have control over a lot of the material so we'll see where it goes I I think on the on the permitting front you there is a there is a dividing line where it becomes a bit of a paradox saying you want to make per easier but you're supporting like an ESG and environmentally friendly sort of approach but yeah there's definitely not enough copper um and I think as part of the go back to bring money into the sector I think um everyone here has in their mind of what grades need needed to be you know had on the ground to make a functioning economically viable copper project I think that that's going to change as well uh because the sort of grades that we were used to is just they they're just not not there anymore so um just being conscious of time we're just about out of uh time for this panel I feel like we could probably go on for another hour but these guys have meetings to get to um so I thought we could just kind of start to wrap it up with a look um I suppose at the financing environment moving forward if you have any kind of thoughts for um you know what would you share with a generalist or what would you share with the investors in the room um and the juniors in the room in terms of uh you know what maybe some positive thoughts for for the industry moving forward well I would say um you know we're we're um we've just closed our fourth mind Finance fund or the initial close at least um and that initial close is quite hard work during the course of last year harder than it has been historically uh for a whole host of reasons connect Ed with just private Equity generally actually um but what I would say is that over the course of the last month or two the phone has really been ringing there is a renewed interest in the space and I think it's a consequence of the run that we've had in Copper and gold and then previously in uranium um and uh as a consequence you know we are hopeful that uh yeah there'll be more Capital flowing to the sector sorry funds were ringing by investors or uh people seeking money prospective LPS well I think the US general list Market is very very critical especially for the Canadian Junior space um when us investors show interest and start allocating to the sector then in a way that liquidity lifts all boats and suddenly um books get the allocations get tougher um basically all books starts to close much quicker at higher levels so I think us investors appetite for the sector will be a uh change of change of scene when it happens and I think that's that's when we will see a reating um in the sector yeah may maybe one thought from my side is you know even if you find yourself as a company in a tough environment I believe there is ways in which you can make money stretch um what I see all too often when companies raise the little bits of money that Looney is referring to um you know they're trying kind of think of ahead at the next fundraising and they're drilling holes that really don't do anything it's an info hole it's almost a guaranteed result but hopefully it will stand them out and set them in good stad for um for the next fundraising what I much rather see a company do is use that money for doing some mapping which doesn't really cost the Earth but could really help improve your geological understanding do more remaining work do more mat work truly progress the project that will get people like us really spending time uh on you and and and noticing you as opposed to you know doing another hole which was almost a guaranteed hle that really doesn't progress the project so I'd love people to think about their money and think how they can progress the project as opposed to how they can get the next funding done and I think that would really help them as an industry and help them as a company um and set themselves up for for more successful fundraisings further down the line no doubt yeah I mean what I found working with sort of Pim and Phil and these guys is they're they they you know they they want to put money to work in the space they want to help companies succeed um so I'd say to companies you know if you're working with you know an Orion or Hawks point you know be open to ideas and different different structures I think where there's a will there's there's there's a way um and also I'd say you know sometimes companies should be open for a little bit more dilution when the Market's open to raise money because um when when Junior markets when Junior mining investing opens up a lot of people go raise money so don't don't worry if it if it means putting a little extra gas in the tank to make sure you can survive the the next downturn I think you know take take the money and and run and move on with life any final thoughts yeah I mean I think I think Pimp's kind of hit the nail on the head right like we we as in Industry have to just uh put runs on the board you know like uh be kind of do things that will make us more successful and uh and and that will then start to to attract uh the you know like more more more funds so you know don't be a a gold company with a sniff of lith lithium that suddenly becomes a Lithium company or a Lithium company with a sniff of gold that suddenly becomes a old company and then just you know like waste and Frid his money away on on on on nothing and not not creating any value all right well certainly a lot to uh consider and take away from this panel so um I want to thank all of our panelists for joining me uh early this morning thank you

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Length: 41min 57sec (2517 seconds)

Published: Tue May 28 2024