Interview with the Author: Dr Craig Keener on his book, Spirit Hermeneutics

[Applause] [Music] hi I'm Craig doom up with Pentecostal pastor calm and with me today actually I'm with him he's been incredibly gracious to to host me today is dr. Craig keener who is author of a marvelous book this book spirit hermeneutics reading scripture in light of Pentecost dr. keener Oh Craig just photo Craig yeah look ray I just I just want to say this is a great book before we get going just a great book I got into this and and halfway through it I got to tell you I was thinking this book is an awesome book we need I need to get this out to as many pastors and and not just pastors the way that you wrote this book you're definitely an academic I know you've worked on a lot of some of the some of the top projects in Christendom here over the last several years but this book is written not only in a scholarly you could tell the scholarship that's went into it but it is it is so readable and so applicable yeah I was just sitting there thinking man where is this book bang so I just want to first of all I want to say thank you and thanks again for for bringing me into your home this is just great I know that you're swamped and and to take your time is just I can't tell you how much I appreciate it but can you give me a little bit of there's a lot of books on hermeneutics out there and I've got a bunch of them most of them haven't been off my shelf in years at least what what brought you to to to write on the whole topic of hermeneutics I actually have a free booklet on hermeneutics on the Internet okay I have it on my on my website at Craig keener calm there's a free resources section but I only wanted to do a free one and it's not a very popular level because I wanted to make something accessible for free I don't want to duplicate the wheel there's so many as you said there's so many hermeneutics books and plenty of good ones there was no reason to duplicate that and that that's there are good ones and that's why this is that this one jumped out because I mean you know there's good ones but this is you know and I'm not just saying this because you're sitting here this is just a step above from my perspective thanks the the the other one the one that I I did for free is just you know the basics of reading in context and and getting background and you know paying attention to the genre and and so on which I found a lot of my incoming students even though in principle everybody says they agree with uh-huh practice it was violated all the time so it was just something basic for those who didn't have access to other resources but with regard to this book you know it's something that I I didn't normally deal with as much in my hermeneutics classes my interpretation classes I just took it for granted you know we're supposed to pay attention to the spirits leading and everything in our lives certainly in their Bible reading but I hadn't really thought about writing a book on it I figured everybody knows that already and then Thomas Young asked me to write something for the Pentecostal manifesto series uh-huh and I I thought about it and the idea really appealed to me the first I I protested they said that's not really what I'm good at you know I'm good at you know digging into the background and he said no you're the one to write this and he kept insisting and finally I said all right as long as I can write it is a biblical scholar uh-huh and deal with what the Bible teaches us about how to how to hear the spirits voice and the tax uh-huh because I'm not an expert in philosophic community and all those things thank God I've been exposed to this thing I'm not that's not my area of scholarly uh-huh primary expertise right and so I I agreed to do it on those terms and and then over the next few months as it was working on other projects as I would be praying and in studying scripture and just noticing how the word leads me as I read the Bible I you know I began to pull things together and organize them and then and I and I actually found they had a lot of work written on particular topics that I could I could draw from researched so anyway right well you know in here I and I tell you I went through it and and you know I think I ran out of multiple markers highlighting everything but I I right at the very beginning you talk about the approach that you're taking but it says here that I believe that with some today call a Pentecostal hermeneutic is simply an emphatic expression of what should be a wider Christian hermeneutic and you know when I read that I was like absolutely I mean because Pentecostal what I mean it's not like we're some subs well maybe we are subset and in some people's mind but I mean we're we're we're Christians and we've been given you know you know one one Lord one spirit one baptism we have we have the Word of God and the Spirit isn't at war with itself so there shouldn't be really in some ways there shouldn't be a Herman a a Pentecostal hermeneutic versus a Presbyterian hermeneutic or anything I you know I and and yet you're right it's just when you when you think about it you go wow you know that's I mean of course but how come it hasn't been done before that yeah we should we should all depend on this spirit and that's what the Pentecostal revival was about in the beginning it was for the renewal of all of the church and actually the Pentecostal revival has really in a sense pervaded so much of the church in terms of I mean the majority of Christians today are not cessationists know the majority of Christians today affirm all the gifts of the Spirit they don't always practice all of that but then I know some Pentecostals so don't practice it either yeah yeah so we need we we need to really believe and be Pentecostal in practice right and and depend on the spirit in our relationship with God in practice as well as in principle and I think in principle almost all Christians affirm the importance of the Spirit mm-hmm in reading scripture I mean you you go through the church fathers they talk about it you you go through writers like Luther and Calvin they emphasize very heavily the illumination of the spirit right so it shouldn't be controversial right we depend on the spirit to teach us these things I thought I think it's bashing Calvin of course he's at a time when it seems like this bit like the spirit is not manifesting itself as it is today or it had been and it's interesting when you look at there was no sense that he believed that there was that the ends of the gifts were there he he says in one spot he says how marvelous must have been to have all these gifts in the early church operating and how wonderful be when our hearts aren't so hard I'm kind of paraphrase him but he he said you know how hard must our hearts be that we don't have them now is what he said I mean there was no I I think that I don't want to make him out to be a charismatic or a Pentecostal but I mean there was no sense where he really thought that that there was that there should have been a stop age even though he looked around and from his vantage point I think that there probably was in many ways but but that happens you talked about some of the evidence law through history even in the way that you did you know talked about the Pentecostal hermeneutic that that that just because there are certain ups and downs so that there's times of great activity and then there's times of lesser that doesn't mean that you know what was it was it was it was it here we said that God didn't pour the he didn't pour the Holy Spirit out and then putting back another thing a bottle I know that was a great line that was enough so so the so you come at this now you know to just to be clear you're teaching at a Methodist University it's or it's it's about 50 percent United Methodist and then a bunch of other stuff okay and and you are yourself ordained in not not what would typically be considered a Pentecostal organization but you are you are fully committed and and and without I mean by experience and by by Bible by study to the to the Pentecostal worldview is that right it is is actually two days after my conversion from atheism I didn't know anything about what the Bible taught about tongues I never I hadn't read the Bible I mean maybe two days after maybe a critical chapters I don't know but but I was just so overwhelmed with the awesomeness in the majesty of the God who graciously saved me that the only way I could give him praise that was worthy of his his honor was as if he gave me the words to do it God knows lots of languages it became you're not in another language and you know I didn't know that there was a name for it back then but is that right so Jim doing it ever since once in fact you make mention of that that you that you often pray in the spirit yes and how edifying that is for you and you also talk about other spiritual experiences that you've had and and some of this perhaps perhaps one of the reasons that comes across so fresh and so powerful and so clear in this and it's so readable is because of your experiences you you've been a missionary or leaves you served in wide you know in a large geographic area around the world had a chance to interact with different people and different cultures different expectations you know and so you found that when they open up the Bible and read it and believe it and act on it God does amazing things and so you bring that entire experience whether it's for healing you you have some taught you talk in there about healing miracles even where you have friends who have been personal witnesses eyewitnesses of people being raised from the dead yes and that's that it you know I mean people look at you with it may be raised eyebrows even among Pentecostals and you know in in America but it's true never it's this is just something that's a an expectation it made me think when I was reading that Philip Jenkins wrote a book called the next Christendom yes and he says that a lot of the alot but for instance in Africa an entire entire community will convert to Christ and then they'll send they'll don't want one of their young people to be you know to raise up two to be a pastor and a leader and theologian they sent them over to American University even the even Pentecostal ones they come back saying there's no such thing as demons there's no such thing and and they say you know get out of here we'll do this ourselves that's a reminding me because there's a there's an actual experience of this that you bring to the table and also in the experience that that that reflects in this let's let's just talk about a few things you the what what would be you talk about well a biblical worldview but about a Pentecostal worldview when you kind of flesh that out a little bit because you have to have in order to have a spirit hermeneutic you have to have a I guess a spirit you'd have to start with a with a worldview or at least at least the foundational premise for that could you could you talk a little bit about that proverbs well in not just proverbs its but its affirmed multiple times in Scripture that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom in the beginning of knowledge yeah so often and this may be more true of those of us have been trained rigorously academically but in academic circles were often taught okay solve this intellectually and so to resolve it intellectually screen out the hypothesis of a God and figure out how you can make this work in purely natural terms well I mean it it I think it's a reaction against those who try to short-circuit the process of investigation by just saying okay well God did it who cares how he did it uh-huh and so I understand why people do that but at the same time you know we can explore all the things like how God did it but still if we don't recognize that God is behind all then we're gonna lose our sense of awe we're gonna lose what holds all of it together that it's it's about it's about him and I I found I found that effect on myself sometimes even when I was working on a book on the historical Jesus which is a field of New Testament studies where people try to reconstruct as much as we can about Jesus from purely historical yeah means and actually I think from purely secular historical means there's a whole lot we can say about Jesus but we could say oh a lot more we also know him personally yeah and so you know for the sake of the book I'm using this kind of fairly narrow methodology and it made sense as long as you start by saying what you're doing this is a minimalist methodology this is you know what we can say based on these things the problem is it's really hard to do that without it spilling over into the rest of the way you think and so my wife would say something to me and I would respond can you give me evidence for that assertion now the testimony of a reliable witness is itself evidence and so you know I'm asking for for supporting evidence because I'm in this mindset this methodological mindset of give me other evidence for this yeah and I can assure you that whether you're an egalitarian or complementarian I'm in the gala Tyrion uh-huh but either way you're gonna get in trouble if you say something like that your wife and I needed to reckon with you know she's a reliable witness and if she says it then chances are this is accurate and so when there was working on the miracles book it started shifting me back into reality because I was coming at it with this rigor well here are these testimonies let me see if I can find any other way to explain them and often you can find an alternative explanation a non-theistic explanation and sometimes there are multiple possible explanations and God can be working through other things but after a while the evidence for God's working these miracles became so overwhelming I'm like I would be an idiot not to just believe that God does these things and and be willing to accept more of this evidence the real turning point for me this isn't the most dramatic of the incidents but it was the turning point for me uh-huh was when we're visiting Congo my wife's country in in Africa Congo Brazzaville and you know I'd heard this story before from my wife but I had never really interviewed the witness and so at this point I interviewed Madame Jacques Antoinette melambe she reported that when her daughter was about two years old she cried out that she was bitten by a snake and she stopped breathing and there was no medical help available in the village so her mother strapped the child were back ran to a nearby village and there a family friend evangelist Coco and Goemon Luiz prayed for the child child started breathing again and the next day she was fine Wow and I asked how long did it take to get to this other village I'm thinking like maybe a couple minutes she said no it was about three hours now six minutes with no oxygen the irreparable brain damage starts in Terez the daughter now has a master's degree she had no brain damage at all Wow and so this isn't the most dramatic I mean I have other cases with medical documentation and so on no medical documentation available here because you know there were no doctors available but this one really struck me because Antonette melambe is my mother-in-law interests is my sister-in-law Wow and not did that one's mother-in-law but we did the firmament with Coco Muys as well and he also confirmed the story huh well you know it's it's interesting because again coming back to this whole idea of a Pentecostal or as a spirit hermeneutic compared to anything out which which you know you clearly say and I think it should be just Christian is you know you start with the with by reading the Word of God as a believer and you know I just it always amazed me that today you know that even in our even in our seminaries I would say conservative or Pentecostal or what you know that you know we I don't know what the the reason is but we we kind of grab what we've been moving to bringing in if not people who only look at it from they think it's just like another book you know or at least not with enthusiasm for you know the for what I I'm gonna put this in my turn for the God of the Bible he does he's miraculously you know I have a friend of mine that said that the entire Bible is unbelievable I mean really from the I mean from the very beginning you know God creating the heavens and earth it's a miracle I mean Jesus Christ rising from the dead after three days is a is unbelievable I mean it's a stumbling block it's it's foolishness I mean an axe head rising is I mean on every page there's something that is supernatural and miraculous in in many ways and you know so it's I mean I just you know why is it that when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit or believing get the Word of God and interpreting it we have that we have you know that we have so much problems I you know you know the biblical writer talks about you know about the Jews I always was I understand in some some ways where you go to Jewish rabbis to try to learn something about Scripture but if but the Bible says that if they don't believe it if they don't realize of Christ that really the veil is still there now this is me I'm not putting words in your mouth and I would think that you know that that while what we definitely could learn some that really the the reality is is that through the through the Spirit of God who is in us and working through us our eyes are open to much more that is there then then then those who have no claim to Christ I that's what I would think yeah what I was talking about earlier in the Academy is often called the hermeneutic of suspicion uh-huh you question all you can and whatever's left you can believe and that some of that goes back to David Hume and elsewhere but it's like Sherlock long you know there's there's some value in in in rigor in exploring things yes if this you know and we don't want to be gullible proverbs also talks about that not just you know a fool just believes anything he goes on either way no and by the way I want to I want to point out that you know that now we're we're kind of taking the mean concerned I'm we're talking to Pentecostal pastors here and give us a spirit so I've kind of taken that that path but really this book is about far more than that it's really I mean because you talk about the absolute necessity to really pull out the rest I don't mean to interrupt you but I'm just the reality is that I mean you know you've spent a lot of time on the on the near the you know the Near East you know the the historic cultures understanding it in context so that we can understand it and and find out what it was saying what the meaning it was in that context so that we don't get it out of context so so so I want to I would really want to point out that this is filled with scholarship I've kind of taken a little bit talk about the Pentecostal aspect but but you're definitely for rigorous study yeah but those things in terms of the cultural setting and so on that's not intrinsic to a hermeneutic of suspicion the hermeneutic of suspicion is do you know it has to do with what you believe and richard hayes who until recently was the Dean of Duke Divinity School points out that as Christians we need to read not with a hermeneutic of suspicion but with a hermeneutic of faith uh-huh we say we believe so let's just believe let's let's take this as God's Word to us let's hear God's voice in this and you know second Corinthians chapter 3 brings that out you were saying about the the veil and then in chapter 4 talks about you know our gospel is veiled to all those who don't believe on this in this age because it's a matter of the presuppositions partly a matter the presuppositions with which you start if you say miracles can't happen you're gonna read it from a certain lens mm-hmm if you say Jesus is Lord you're gonna read it from another lens you know we we saw Jesus alive from the dead the Apostles say he's exalted to the right hand of the Father he's poured out the spirit you live in light of that reality so in 2nd Corinthians chapter 2 Paul talks about how you know people look at us and to some we're the stench of death leading to death and others the aroma of life and it's the same way with the cross the message of the cross as you said is to those who are perishing foolishness but to us it's God's power and God's wisdom because we're willing to take God's word for it we start with that premise of faith and it doesn't need to be a blind faith I've done a whole lot of you know writing on the historical reliability of the Gospels and so on my faith isn't a blind faith I was converted from atheism I know you know I had blind faith and unbelief back then but to have real a real living faith biblical faith is not a leap in the dark biblical faith is not make-believe where a biblical faith is a deliberate step into the light of God's truth because God is trustworthy it's not like we have to work up a feel in the faith it's not like we always have to intellectually satisfy our doubts about this detail or that detail or is that God is trustworthy yeah you know and and so you've got questions in this detail or that detail that that doesn't mean you have unbelief but we willing were willing to trust God ultimately the the spirit who speaks to the text the spirit of testifies of Christ so second Corinthians three speaks of the the veil when people are reading but it goes on to speak of how the the Lord who revealed himself to Moses in that text unveiled mm-hmm in glory there corresponds to our experience of the Spirit today and that by the Spirit we are confronted with God's own presence as we read the text and of course not just as we read the text right we are being conformed from one dimension of glory into another dimension of glory he says in 2nd Corinthians 3:18 as we behold the Lord and he goes on to say in chapter 4 how how in Christ the light of God's glory it is as sean has revealed in the moses only go see part of God's glory but in the incarnation where God Himself became flesh and especially in the cross where we see God's heart revealed towards us most fully we get to see something beyond what Moses saw you know not the cosmic spectacle of fireworks but we see God's heart unveiled towards us and if we read in light of who God is of who God has revealed himself to be and we're looking for God's heart as we're reading Scripture that's that's the right presupposition mm-hmm and experientially we meet God in faith in the biblical text and trust him to transform us mm-hmm so when when when we're looking at this and weren't for pastors you have a a really an outstanding observation early on that I really really liked it to pull out here because again it's think that this book is not just for academics not just you know it's for its for pastors by the way just a little aside here this goes along with kind of something that I've been thinking about for a write a great book that this is that they almost go hand in hand there's a book out called the pastor's public theologian just an outstanding book where you know we're pastors we don't have to just let the academic said they said everything that pastors are all in our communities and and and it used to be the pastors I mean that the academic the the the studies were actually done by you know they may have been pastors here but they were working over here too there was a combination they were kind of setting the the stage for the for the overall culture in their community and sharing the Word of God and applying it but you you may you make a mention that that I think is really something that pastors ought to think about you say that there's a too often you didn't say this but when I was that thought too often that's right you mentioned the need yes to study for Sunday's sermon and to come up with these points of application for your congregation but you say that you know there really has to be a two-fold study one has to be one has to be an overall thorough study of God's Word to study it and to and to prepare reading the whole reading at all and in content in as much context we can find and understanding it there and and to often you know perhaps perhaps academics only do the one and and they don't do the application and perhaps pastors get caught up in in a you know schedule and they're so busy that they're only doing it for a Sunday morning with certain points and how important it is that really you have to keep both sides going right and what we said earlier about the academic rigor the Bible is given to us in textual form uh-huh so it should be a no-brainer that it's we need to study a textually the same principles we would use you mentioned earlier about people study at the way they study any text the same principles we use for studying other poetry or other Hebrew poetry well there isn't actually you know but but for ancient Near Eastern poetry as I guess their closest parallel this the same principles we would use for studying ancient letters and so on well we'll use those for the the biblical genres at the same time it's not just like any other book it is a book yeah and therefore we need to read it the way we would read comparable books in a comparable in terms of literary but it's not just a book it's also God's Word and that's the dimension where where we as Christians read in a particular way that's different from others because we read it with faith expecting God to teach us of course we can learn from other books too obviously where did that go though where I mean why did I you know it's so needed but why why do we need a book today that says you know that this is you know the Bible is a book for believers we have to read it to believe I mean that's uh I mean I think I shared with you earlier but I read that I mean I've got to highlight it in here I'm like why do we even have to say that and that wasn't and that wasn't to say you know I I mean that highly cuz I'm like we definitely have to say that it and and that's so true you I mean you're you're just you're really when it comes right down to it the big thing you're saying you're going up going through and you you give some great help and you give some insight on how to pursue that and you even set it off against some other things like language deconstruction really response some other things and and you're not completely opposed to some of those things I may be but yeah I mean you're if you're real generous and some of those suitors and which I which I think is real important I think that's great but but really what what you're doing is you're saying here's here's God's Word it did come to us it came to us from it from a certain time with a certain cultural setting it has definite meaning and and it may be may be applicable in in all these different realms but before really what we need to do to be faithful is read it in faith but also to but also let's let's sit down and take a look and study to show yourself approved right because people yeah you can read the Bible in faith but faith is only as good as its object faith is only good if your object of faith is trustworthy God obviously is trustworthy but if you're misinterpreting a text right you know their people go around claiming all sorts of things based on biblical texts out of context and then they get upset when that doesn't happen but the text doesn't actually say that in context and so we need to figure out what the text actually says you know as well as is putting our faith negative I got to say the funny stories just there was one fair prominent I wouldn't call him a theologian but a fairly popular and prominent teacher at one time and he he gave some pretty interesting pulled some texts out of you know these proof texts and one of it I remember the one of the funniest ones is that he taught that men should never wear shorts and he took his his text the Bible says that God does not desire to look on the legs of man no that's true that's true so funny now obviously that's a wild extreme example II did happen but that's an extreme example but but we do have we do have a lot of a lot of times if people with great zeal but but that zeal perhaps leads them to and zeal for the holy spirit but perhaps that zeal leads them to say you know what that we've got the word in the spirit and I'm just gonna flow with the spirit and I'll just come up with you know you know the you know like they're not like they're not United they're not connected we need the word is the anchor because we're supposed to discern the spirit and and in the spirit inspired the word and that gives us a concrete anchor a very large one that we can use so we don't get blown about by every every wind of teaching that comes along and I saw I've seen so much of the being blown about yeah you know I've been you know charismatic Pentecostal since 1975 so I've seen a lot of weird things done in the name of the Holy Spirit coughing out demons into jars make sure you seal well don't give it air holes but and then you know just so many weird things done by the way I mean we would we would say we would affirm that I mean as perhaps as misguided and as off you know off biblical truth that maybe there's no doubt in here you talk about the reality of casting out demons there's a there is a there is a that is that's a that's a reality in countries around the world yes yes yeah yeah yeah and so it's just year when you talk about this you're just talking about you know there there's some fringe yeah and maybe some that you know that they have other motives there's a you know which part of this I emphasize normally depends on the audience to whom I'm speaking with my introductory students I find a lot of them come from backgrounds where they're not really paying attention to context you know in principle they believe it but they're all these we take all our five favorite Bible memory verses yeah and most of them in context don't mean how we use them some of them do and I hate to tell you I you know I I went to a secular school it was it was it was foundationally Christian but it wasn't a it wasn't a semi I wasn't a Christian school per se and I had a I grew up in a Pentecostal Church loved you know I loved it was great I would never trade it for anything but I had a philosophy class there and I a couple of years ago I came across at one of my early philosophy and I thought it was being this great witness and I look back on that paper you just mentioned that but you know it really is sometimes I think you know they'll say his youth is wasted on the young I've heard and I think dear Lord I'm glad there wasn't a lot of other recording media back there you know putting down you know about every five years I look back and I go wow did I really say that but I didn't mean that but but that's right a lot of times it just you know we you had mentioned that and I didn't mean to interrupt but you you find that that people are writing not from the Bible but from tradition right even when they are approaching it they're just everything is coming from my tradition rather than them taking it you know sitting down and taking a hard look at what God's Word says right yeah and Jesus had something to say about that too just temporary yeah who valued the human traditions ultimately over the Word of God yeah they wouldn't have said that they were doing that he's quoting from Isaiah it was going on in Isaiah's day no traditions can help preserve truth or they can help preserve something else yeah but it needs to be more than tradition in our lives I mean if we have Pentecostal tradition you know sometimes one generations experienced a revival becomes the next generations tradition becomes the next generations legalism you know they did it this way but what we need isn't necessarily to imitate what they did what we need is the encounter with the same presence of God the same holy spirit plus rebirth the revival to begin with yeah so I mean it may be expressed in the same way but different revivals in history of had different you know like some people were saying no you know with revivals people are falling on the ground and weeping and and whoever heard of a revival with people laughing you know well Acts chapter 13 when God pours out the spirit the one thing it says about about that outpouring not not described in detail like in the x2 or x4 but at that pouring pouring it says that they were filled with the Holy Spirit and with joy I mean you don't have to laugh when you have joy but don't put God in the box that it has to happen only this way there are different aspects of the spirits work in our lives and let's welcome whatever God God really brings to us yeah that's just not well what answer things are misinterpretation scripture right you know I think I think what what takes that to to a level that's really unsustainable is is it once it happens people are afraid that if it stops they almost want to keep it going because they are afraid that if if a certain move of God stops and that means that God Himself is gone so they want them I mean at a certain point it kind of becomes they want to keep doing it just to do it if that makes sense and then at another time and then the other thing is is that if God is doing something here we fly people in from all over the place and we a cookie cutter it back you know where where that doesn't seem to be you know what what God wants to do at that at that place and at that time and and so the manifestations yeah yeah it's uh it's it's interesting how that you know so somehow that dynamic and and you know I think perhaps Pentecostal because we are is we have a desire to flow in the spirit that perhaps we you know we have to maybe that's an area that that we need to step back and let other for like you said from other traditions teach us even though we're you know we can definitely there's one of the things I want to that I wanted to touch on here and and that has a do and and this this isn't a big part but sisal by the way earlier what you said about the deconstructionist and so on oh yeah I don't agree with deconstruction no I just I just you know there was some useful insights yeah which wouldn't need to be a deconstructionist to have but yeah they did contributes them so yeah you know I you know I hate this conversation from I you know I think really when it comes right down to it reader response is a form of deconstruction I mean basically it's you know I it's kind of like it drives me crazy I know I'm if this made me I may be wrong I these Bible studies were people you know the the leader goes around says what does this passage doesn't mean to you and what does it mean you and I feel like sometimes I have a friend of mine that says he wants to stand up sometimes says it means the same thing to everybody you don't have this private interpret not me you may it may speak to you and there may be a UH there may be a powerful a move of government but in terms of just everybody just you know making it mean whatever they want and you actually you cover a good section in there about that if it means if it means something different to everybody it mean has no meaning at all yeah I think the value of reader responses it's descriptive rule of getting different interpretations on the table so we can listen to one another hear from one another from different cultural standpoints which of course is part of global Pentecostalism yeah we have it the Spirit works through all of us not just just one of us yeah thing like that but at the same time yeah it needs to be anchored in what the text actually was communicating so you know you have a passage that says you shall not commit adultery there's somebody in the room who is committing adultery literally it should speak to them very clearly absolutely somebody else is committing adultery in their heart maybe this passage isn't talking specifically about that but the implications of the text in light of other passages literature still speak to them so on that level yeah you know obviously the the application people people use the term meaning in different ways and I want to argue about semantics but in terms of it needs everybody for you actually have a section there about what is the meaning of meaning and it reminded me of the love a tall back twenty years ago what does is me it was it was I got to tell you this is uh the but again Craig dr. keener I'm just I can't tell you how from my perspective how the book when I read it I just I just it hit me and I just thought this is just a great work and and you know sometimes you know we're you know we're looking at all maybe a lot of different other for lack of better word sexy or type topics to handle but this is something that's core to pastors I mean I think you know I I just you know I I just know pastors are always you know sometimes they feel like they're shut out of this stuff and you don't know but this book you've written this book I don't know I don't know what you wait um but when I read this I thought this book is written to pastors and I was thinking Sunday school superintendents to adult Bible teachers and I was just sitting there thinking this is just a great book and I think I know it sounds like I'm just sitting here trying to Peggy and I that's not the case I wouldn't but I wouldn't be here if I hadn't you know I was just at first I started to think I'm gonna I want to write a review of this real quick and I thought gosh the guy's only four hours away I wonder if I can get a hold of him because so much better too you know they have the author talk about this but so I I just I would just encourage the pastor's that that are listening to get a hold of this book spirit hermeneutics reading scripture and light of Pentecost I I can't tell you you know I come across a lot of books and I know your time is precious I know that your you have a lot of books that are recommended to you on a regular basis but I'll tell you that you know if you read this book and if this doesn't say something powerful to you and help you hey I'll buy it back from you it's it's it's it is it is that good and I I'm up and because I read this and I'm gonna wrap up this real quick and but because you've been generous in your time and also I know you been feeling real you know top of the world lately just like a lot of people right now but the but you've written you've written extensively you have Craig keen or calm where you have a lot of a lot of material written there on the mostly on a non-academic level there yeah you know Bible studies and sermons and videos yeah yeah and and I found that your tunes yeah and I've read a lot I've friend of mine right now Bryan Peterson do you know talking we're going through a series on Ezekiel's use of John again account you know understanding John in context of who he was pulling from and in this case he focuses on that even though there's a lot of other things there's no denying that but but you've written a lot about you've written a lot in John just some I see quite a bit and it looks like I think at one point you said that he'd been working so much on John in one point that it was a you know the it was affecting some other studies or it was spilling over or something so I'm looking forward to looking looking at that as well and people could find out what's another site where they can find some of your material oh well on Amazon you've got the books oh okay you mentioned that you said you have is uh is the is a material on hermeneutics that the the free section said I'm dr. Craig Peter calm yeah the freak the free witness okay like the the more academic books that I write actually the publisher owns them and not myself I can't give this away for free but but yeah yeah you do and you do a lot of video so is there anything like forgot here that I should that you would like to pass her to know about the book that I haven't for those who get turned off by footnotes just ignore the footnotes you read the text oh my gosh I don't Holly could do that I'm sitting here I want better here and I will take what if we put a bit of this is footnoted and I I love the footnotes I'm sitting here going through this and I'm like wow this is great first of all it's always a nice reference to know when you've referenced something you know good reference for other books to pick up but but you've got you've got extensive notes in bibliography and if they skip some of that stuff my goodness no but but you're but you're right you can just read through it yeah you don't have to read the index yeah but maybe more importantly I think well at least I thought it was more important this kind of hermeneutic is just it should be the normal Christian where you're not Scripture having said that years ago when I realized about the importance of reading the Bible in its cultural context I was you know when I was a young Christian because I had no Christian background to really get a hold the Bible I started reading 40 chapters of the Bible a day and you do that you can get through the New Testament every week or through the Bible every yeah but eventually as I was doing that the first thing it did was you know within a couple weeks it was like whoa all these verses I memorized through out of context it it made me grapple with the context with the flow of thought through a book of the Bible but then the second thing that happened to me after some timeless I began to realize that the writer was was especially in the letters takes into account things that they didn't have to explain because these were this was information already shared between the writer and the first audience you know they don't have to stop and explain this is Greek you need to get a translation if you don't read Greek they didn't have to stop to explain okay here's the situation in Rome that I'm addressing and whatever and that's when I began to get seriously interested in background and eventually realized you can't expect everybody busy pastors or other people even you know a lot of Bible School teachers you can't expect them to spend years going and researching the background right somebody needs to collect all this and make it available so that's why I wrote the IVP Bible background commentary and that's to put in the years of research into the background at people's fingertips like this is the background you can use for this passage this is background for this passage and just all the way through the New Testament it gives background so right you're preparing a sermon you want some background on what's going on in the passage that's that's to put in people's fingertips and that one is is on a very accessible level there's about it's sold like half a million copies there's another another there's also the cultural background Study Bible that came out in 2016 it's available in the NIV and the NKJV because those are the the Bibles that the publisher owns right but I most of the New Testament notes for that John one edited Old Testament I entered to the New Testament Wow well that's it so it just by the way there the Sun sounds like a like a typical preacher right yeah and in closing and then another 20 minutes but but you know there is a you you actually mentioned something about about it's because you mentioned in context I think I remember that you would actually mention that you have a that you have a Study Bible coming out but you had mentioned how other study Bibles with the notes that people had just read only those and and you're encouraging people to read far beyond that of course but but so often you know things get settled not because of the Bible but because of the notes be said one person once said that the Bible sheds a lot of light on the commentaries and you know it's true but but so that's so so that's that's another another tool and another something that's available to help the Holy Spirit to shouldn't say help the Holy Spirit duty wants but it is an aid that the Holy Spirit has allowed God's people to use and you mentioned in their the gift of teaching how you know some oh we overlook that gift so often but it's a gift that the Holy Spirit gives a church teachers to come along and help us with that is so that's I think I'm gonna go go pick one up but I appreciate that I haven't up until just a couple years ago and I hadn't really thought that much about the most of the studies in terms of the the ancient Near East stuff I have a friend of mine who's specialized in that he's constantly giving me updates and we went back and forth on that and then I read yours and I think man I'm missing something here I need to go back and take take a look at this stuff and help me you know another five years I'm gonna become an why day why did I think that so but hey dr. keener thank you very much I appreciate it and and thanks for giving me some time today to talk about this book I'm really really delighted to be here and also thankful that you took the time to put this down thank you so much thank you

Channel: Craig Dumont

Views: 1,519

Rating: 4.6923075 out of 5

Keywords: Dr. Craig Keener, Hermeneutics, Spirit Hermeneutics, Biblical interpretation, Craig R. Dumont, Craig Dumont, Pentecostal Pastor, Book Review, Interview with Craig Keener, Author Craig Keener

Id: XI202gx_tzw

Length: 51min 49sec (3109 seconds)

Published: Sun Jan 28 2018