Interview With A Murderer (True Crime Documentary) | Real Stories

give me a minute this is [ __ ] important to me and this is gonna start the program yes yeah nice you bastards you're having it tell me when my name is Bert Spencer I don't run and I don't hide and I do tend to say it as it is regardless many of you will remember my name in relation to the murder of Carl Bridgewater I did not kill Carl Bridgewater and I am here to prove to you that I did not [Music] on the 19th of September 1978 thirteen-year-old Karl Bridgewater left his home in Words Lee the West Midlands back thousands of other children across the country he was carrying out a paper round for pocket money he's a reliable that you know you could always rely on him to do things you know so never died no worries about him doing his paper there at 4 p.m. Carl was making one of his final deliveries of the day to you tree farm the owners an elderly couple were out it seems Carl entered the farmhouse and disturbed the burglary Carr was then shot in the face with a shotgun at point-blank range the cold-blooded murder of a young boy sparked the biggest police manhunt for a child killer since the Moors Murders we have a good witness and a very clear and lucid type of witness and he had a very good close look at a man sitting behind the wheel of what is probably a blue estate car there's a distinct possibility that this is one of the men that we are looking for the police's suspicions were quickly aroused by a local ambulance officer Spencer we shopping at me and Johnny whatever I mean it's very hard to describe that you know your feelings to that person since Carl's murder nearly 40 years ago but Spencer has lived under the constant shadow of suspicion now he has decided it's time to speak out the murder of 13 year-old Carl Bridgewater even by the grisly standards of murder itself that you tree farm in Staffordshire on the afternoon of September 19th 1978 was appalling on his after school newspaper round he unknowingly disturbed an antiques burglary at this lonely farmhouse almost brutally shot down it was evening meal time like you know and we usually sat down to our evening meal all together and Colin returned and Janet got a bit worried you see so I went to look for him when I got down by you tree form there was a police car there you see so I pulled up and asked him if he'd seen a paperboy at all you know and that's when he said that there had been an incident with a boy you know and I have to wait West Midlands Police reconstructed Carl's last-known movements in a bid to jog the public's memory I am quite sure that the offenders went to the farmhouse to break in and steal antiques and as I say I'm looking for a link in other similar offenses as police began to gather witness statements there was one in particular that stood out local company director Roger Edwards gave a very specific account of a vehicle and its driver I saw a pale blue saloon car the Vauxhall Viva turning into you tree farm I noticed the driver was a man he was wearing a dark blue uniform police searched for records for all owners of such vehicles in a 50 mile radius one of the owners was ambulance officer Burt Spencer when police realized that he wore a uniform to work and was a part-time antiques dealer but became a focus of their inquiries this is what Burt Spencer told police officers during an interview at his home just five days after the murder of Carl I'm a married man residing with my wife and family at the above address I'm very interested antiques mainly clocks and occasionally purchased things for my collection I'm not a dealer I'm employed by the West Midlands Health Authority on Tuesday 19th to September I was on duty at the hospital from approximately half past eight until approximately ten past 5:00 I'm the registered owner of a Vauxhall Viva saloon motorcar in that first interview there were some pieces of information which Burt chose not to volunteer to police he did not tell them that he knew the Bridgewater family and that in fact he had been close neighbors of theirs in words lived for a number of years nor did he tell them that he regularly hunted with a shotgun on land surrounding you tree farm where the murder was committed criminologists professor David Wilson is used by police forces across the country to get inside the minds of murderers Karl Bridgewater is one of the most infamous unsolved murders in British criminal history and if Bert Spencer has agreed to be interviewed that's too good an opportunity to miss after an initial approach through his biographer Bert Spencer has invited professor Wilson to meet him at his home in a remote part of Lincolnshire so they can discuss the murder of Carl Bridgewater it's giving me away that's very kind of it that's coming out to meet me as well well I've read so much about you it's a pleasure to meet you I am it's very nice to meet you how are you I'm so pleased to meet ya well it's lovely to meet you thank you yeah some of it was good you're more than welcome to come into our home come on thank you hello Christine Christine hello my name is Dave as well so it's very nice to me oh well I hope some of it was good as he saw some of it come on in come on in just go on in and relax all right yours yes some of them are in here and always animals behind you this is one of your escape sheep some got burnt when my former wife had a funny and threw me out and she burnt a lot in the garden lots of things she banned but these are some of them yet yeah she burnt your paintings burnt another stuff well she went a little bit unwell uh-huh she's doing again and that's in one of those episodes yeah let's turn our stove work at the time also you're on your I'm going oh that's from a long time ago yeah I did nineteen years with them uh-huh a problem is anything good you've done in life like saving lives delivering babies that was lovely helping deliver babies that was beautiful it doesn't care for anything when you get yourself into trouble yeah it's all demolished yeah and it's a shame really cursor it's still in my mind is telling my heart I'm still in my heart and ambulance man although physically I can't be now yeah well what about cup of tea there maybe start formerly having a chance okay a sturdy bench I'm sure I've got a 30 feet thank you what was that appeal to you about ambulance driving that's been a recurring theme I know I don't know we used to go out in the middle of the night helping babies needs to stop in the snow and no mum I'd have a baby so I took a cause to make sure I'd never do anything wrong the baby would survive my rough handling as it were all these little things soaking wet covered in blood and this little tiny thing I got life and I don't know what it is I'm getting emotional I know you are you get me just wait a bit yes yes of course you tell me when you feel ready to start we're going through star emotional stuff let's talk about the death of Karl Bridgewater yes where were you when you first heard the news that Karl Bridgewater had been murdered at home no sorry sorry how's it work next day how did you react bloody hell yeah when you were first interviewed yet by the police here was this shocking murder of a paperboy you knew the farm yes you knew the family the Bridgewater's but you didn't really offer very much to the police in that first interview I knew them they weren't personal friends I know you you're not personal friend if you got stabbed tomorrow in Boston I haven't got much to offer I knew you yes there's a witness who says that he saw a Vauxhall Viva all right which you had at the time right and the person driving the Vox over here was wearing a uniform with two pairs on it thank you for saying that if you ever went down to you tree farm down the lane and saw a Vauxhall Viva turning left you'd see a back of a Vauxhall TV returning left you've seen nothing else whatsoever you've just mentioned a car that could have been mine it wasn't because of the sighting of a uniformed man in a blue Vauxhall the police decided to question Burt again this time at Corbett hospital where he worked they were particularly interested in his alibi which his secretary Barbara provided I can confirm that mr. Hubert Spencer was at Corbett Hospital all afternoon what bird did not tell police was that Barbara and he were close friends and neighbors someone said he didn't tell the police that Barbara ripe old lived 10 doors up the same road she was the secretary he was a secretary at the hospital they didn't ask you know I could have said I've got green socks on tonight I've just had to poo in the toilet they didn't ask hmm and I appreciated what they were there for they were asking questions and I answered the questions I answered every question you continue to campaign against people thinking that you had anything to do with that crime I've stopped that now listen I'm on camera I don't give a [ __ ] think what you will well I think I was you know in shock for quite a while and I just well no I just wouldn't believe them that hitted know I you know I just thought there was smoke and he told the DA just couldn't believe that it had happened in the weeks following the murder of newspaper boy Carl Bridgewater a local ambulance man Bert Spencer was the police's prime suspect things were going and dropping into place which I'd say as a not as an ordinary as a policeman or a detective but I would have said blue car Bert's got a blue car person in uniform that wears the uniform knows the family Bert knows the family he knew where they lived well three out of three makes a story despite the growing body of circumstantial evidence pointing to Burt just 10 weeks after Carl's murder the police suddenly had a new lead and a new set of suspects a professional gang had used a shotgun in another farmhouse raid just 10 miles from you tree farm [Music] they're at least picked up four men all known to them as armed robbers Michael Hickey Vincent is cousin James Robinson a fourth Malloy after several days of interrogation one of the men Patrick Malloy admitted to being a tree farm he said he was upstairs when he heard a gunshot and that his accomplice 16 year-old Michael Hickey had accidentally killed Karl with a shotgun Malloy's confession led the rest of the gang to turn on one another despite the absence of any physical evidence against them these confessions led to their successful prosecution and the so called Bridgewater for were jailed for between 12 and 25 years but there was one person who was convinced that the bridgewater four were innocent they'd been set up by the police then as the teenager Michael Hickey was led away his mother and rushed to the front of the gallery and cried down to him tearfully I'll fight Michael I'll fight at the time no one paid much attention to an Wieland's campaign as far as the public was concerned Carl's killers were safely behind bars but then exactly one month after the Bridgewater trial there was another brutal shotgun murder in the sleepy rural community of Stourbridge here at Holloway house farm a half mile from you tree again another brutal shotgun killing this time the victim was a 70 year old farmer called Hubert wounds it wasn't just the uncanny similarity of the shootings or their proximity that made headlines it was the name of the person who immediately confessed to the killing that person was Bert Spencer in the middle of a late-night social gathering Wilkes his close friend Hubert Spencer left the room returned with a shotgun and killed him Burt has never talked in detail about the one murder he does admit to the shooting of his own friend farmer Hubert Wilkes his little oh man I love him because he was like the father on December the 13th 1979 farmer Wilkes hosted a gathering for Bert's 40th birthday at Holloway house farm Wilkes his daughter Jean Bert and his first wife Janet were the guests Hubert Wilkes used to brag the farmers used to get together and he'd mix special cocktails to get their women pissed and they'd ever swap around thought nothing of it but I must have thought something of it I'd had a lot of whiskey before I went there because he was my birthday I did a lot of whiskey I used to drink whiskey don't there cuz in case it makes me nasty put the drinks in Easter dough and he says in a great big loud voice Janet I've made you a special cocktail and I cannot remember what happened next apparently I took his gun from the doorjamb went to my car got a hacksaw I cut the barrel off I went in so now I went and shut him Bert also viciously attacked his wife Janet who managed to escape from the farm still bleeding in a state of shock Janet's daughter remembers exactly what her mother said the night her father murdered Hubert Wilkes she is asked not to be filmed my mother said she got up from the ferry and they had a fight she was trying to grab the gun off him he constantly hit I picked another gun out from another door jamb virginica I drove up the lane I saw an ambulance oh my mate and I stopped I stopped it's all insane and a driver came up and he said Bert don't go down the lane there's a gunman on the loose I say Barry I think it's me Bert confession and refusal to offer any defense or explanation to the jury meant his trial lasted just four days he was sentenced to life for murder Bert's conviction and the many similarities between the murder of Carl and Wilkes were further ammunition to those convinced the bridgewater for were innocent this is one of the fields that used to be belonging to the farm today nearly 40 years after the night he murdered farmer Wilkes but Spencer is returning with the criminologist David Wilson to Holloway house farm the scene of his crime and farmer Wilkes formed you tree farm as well and this far that's Holloway house far there oh my gosh it looks pretty impressive doesn't it that is oh wait was I was his gardener is chauffeur what would you say to Hubert Wilkes no I'm sorry Shane no I'll say nothing nothing this hurt I shot him didn't I friend it hurts Church me I don't expect you to understand that it does no I understand that I understand that it's very emotional and they were powering my different bloody mad didn't I for a few minutes how come Hubert Wilkes ends up dead in exactly the same way as Cole Bridgewater I don't know about that I don't know circumstances or what did what you call it coincidence or whatever but apparently you did yeah that must strike you but Constance yes yes they said to me they said it's exactly the same as Carlisle in fact everything those eerie similarities were to haunt Bert Spencer for his entire time in prison and they also fueled the campaign to free the bridgewater for who in 1981 launched the first of several appeals against their convictions for Carl's murder claiming Bert Spencer with a real killer there are a number of coincidences which if there hadn't been that second murder at the farm on the road one may never have known about it shouting Burt's name from the rooftops one of the bridgewater four men started the longest prison protest in history 89 days Michael Hickey demonstrated on the roof of Lester's top security guard tree prisons stating his case through a makeshift loudhailer Hickey also painted the name of the man he believed was the real killer on the roof for all to see Spenser the investigative journalist Paul foot was persuaded to join the Bridgewater campaign and with his help Bert's name was rarely out of the headlines these alleged what did they call him celebrities the campaign group is full of celebrities all trying to get me hung for the crime they didn't know what they're talking about but they some what some of those groups came to Wormwood Scrubs 11:30 one night and outside the big war with the razor on it chanting chanting the kill Bert Spencer Gilbert Spencer Gould Bridgewater blah blah inciting the inmates to kill me and you members of that campaign group judge me I won't name you here I won't name and shame you here I may do one day I may well thank you very much but for agreeing to see me and I'll see you again soon hello they welcome anytime thank you you fool to seeing you again safe journey thank you come on yep I'm developing a picture of I don't want to easily jump to labels but there was some huge narcissism and think about how he could switch on and off emotion we need to check the materials in relation to his movements on the day that Karl Bridgewater died but that's just coming behind us with another dog so do you know whose dog it is beau we're gonna find out up there alright come on baby in there love in there that's what's going through his mind at the really he wants to know exactly what I think he wants to know if he passed the test there he goes the hero and he's owned my animal lover child lover killer I had no involvement in the Carl Bridgewater murder I did not kill Carl no involvement whatsoever and this lie has been going on for 18 years but Spencer was released from prison in 1995 he served 14 years without parole for refusing to show any remorse or shed any light on why he had murdered Hubert Wilkes less than two years later the Bridgewater for would also find themselves free man cries of joy tears of jubilation and first embraces with those who'd help them find freedom the Bridgewater Falls convictions were quashed because lawyers were able to prove that the original confession which was also the key piece of evidence against him had been forged the defense lawyers also repeatedly named an alternative suspect Burt Spencer mr. Bennett Hytner QC spoke about a man seen by police after the murder called Herbert Spencer mr. Spencer had also failed to disclose that he knew Karl Bridgewater but he bought from sold antiques and that he had permission to shoot treefon with carl Bridgewater's killer still at large but spencer once again found himself being asked difficult questions about the newspaper boy's death or joining me now a bert Spencer who's been accused of killing cold Bridgewater his wife Christina and and Whedon Michael hickeys mother do you now feel the need to get involved in the search to find that man I won't rest let's put it like this until the perpetrator of that child the killing of that child is behind bars I mean he has been accused of this and by prisoners net as seven times at least now after reading that this morning a lot of people are going to draw the conclusion that you've killed Carl Bridgewater are but nothing keeps the spotlight off me well as people like Ann Whelan pointing her finger at me I do not fear any police investigation I would welcome one it wasn't me that accused you in the very first place I want to finish please yeah and is this not a fact you did have guns is this not a fact you were an antique dealer is this not a fact you live next door to the child and you refuse to tell the police that is this not a fact that your car was seen turning into you tree farm that the police went out in in a 50-mile radius to look for box'll weavers they came up with a few rocks order is a fact that you were the only man in uniform that was Sam and it happens really much is this a fact when they went to your house you could have said go and see my colleague mrs. Wray bowl she will give you an alibi if I did so your papers have gone they don't lie on this program he went to the hospital no sir I have this in I don't need papers and if I had it worth worth it well I'm sorry happy so this is not a court all right neither is a trial by media all right but let me ask you one question for the record my dad kid did you shoot Carl Bridgewater I did not and that is on the record and no attempts by these people no amount of attempts is going to remove it from the record talking about facts that lady is fact during the course of the campaign to free the bridgewater for and wheelin accumulated thousands of legal documents which she believes may still help cat-car Bridgewater's killer David Wilson has been given unrestricted access to the materials and are all these boxes related to the case yes cabinets and all those boxes and the boxes all be hung and in everything it's crystal clear in some of these boxes that you see that the evidence is there to convict the person that is responsible for the horrific murder you know psychopath I think yes so that's what I'm hoping anyway and you've been incredibly vocal about saying that Bert Spencer was responsible for Carl's murder why do you think he's never sued you well because he did it because he's guilty he sued me he takes me into a court of law orders me the quashing of those convictions inevitably put the spotlight back on to Burt's pen so you met him a few times how did those encounters go I find him personally again a personal feeling this is quite a chilling man how does Spencer react to you on a personal level most of the time wishes me dead that's the best thing that could happen to me so and I'll tell you why I think cuz he knows that I'm right I've got a feeling he wants to be challenged he knows he's guilty I think he's playing a game with everybody I know I just know I'm not just pointing a finger because of the sake of it but in my eyes Bert Spencer killed Carl Bridgewater I don't want to speak to an Waylon I have no interest whatsoever in my life she's not in part of my life she's a nothing I actually hate the [ __ ] I worship the ground she's got come into her horrible [ __ ] her boy did it I am absolutely convinced professor David Wilson recruited a team of researchers at Birmingham City University to sift through the bridgewater archive which Ann Whelan had kept in her shed I said old fashioned research in these boxes are documents collected over the course of 20 years by and wheeler who is the mother of Michael Hickey one of the Bridgewater for frankly they're a treasure trove of information and I believe in these boxes is the identity of the killer of Karl Bridgewater searching through the papers the researchers uncovered documents that David believes may be of real importance all ambulance officers kept time sheets these would have proven Burt's whereabouts and supported his alibi but crucial records and logbooks on the critical days had vanished luckily ambulances daily record sheets and unfortunately on the day of Carl's murder the record sheets are missing Bert claims it was corrupt policemen who removed the records to make him look guilty at the time when they thought he was the prime suspect [Music] as the search continues there's another revealing discovery the complete transcript of the second interview conducted with Burt at Corbett Hospital the police officer says I made known to him the reason for my visit and said have you visited you tree farm Spencer replied yes I have you found out when asked if he'd ever been to you tree farm in uniform Burt replied I think so in his first police interview Burt Spencer failed to disclose that he knew the Bridgewater's and had been their neighbor for several years this time he admitted he did know Carl Bridgewater he said well you know I used to live in the same area the officer said three doors away you were 21 and he was 25 he would know you I suppose well perhaps I didn't recognize him replied Burt that's a very odd statement isn't it I didn't recognize him is he meaning the press photographs or is he meaning actually in yew tree farm that day this Karl bridgewater have to die for the simple instrumental reason that Burt didn't recognize him but Karl recognized Burt since killing Hubert Wilkes nearly four decades ago but Spencer has lived with the label of murderer we make mistakes some of us make dreadful mistakes I took a life okay night I am fully aware of the the awfulness of that the wind blowed that up look I got a charity and I say with you the Lord's Prayer forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us what a load of liars we are as a nation we will not forgive those who trespass against us we want revenge why didn't you forgive me your lawyers you're two-faced as you talk to your God and he will do something about it one day after sifting through the original police investigation into bird Spencer David wants to ask bird directly about the mysterious missing ambulance time sheets and his alibi those records by going missing were unable to corroborate what it was that you said about where you were because your are your argument is that you record that hospital all day what was it in the book what was in the book might have been something that could exonerate you completely yes yes something in the book might have been something that would incriminate you completely so the book going missing is quite important in terms of the story we've been discussing it is but if there was something in that book that could incriminate me why didn't they give it to those media we've got him because it was you that took it that's good you get in go get in but you knew that headquarters really well I knew it really well you definitely were at corporate hospital all day all day all day every minute of that day and it was proven so well it hasn't been proven because the thing that could prove that burr were their records and the records went missing I'm worried that you're getting cold I am cold yes so let's go back to the hearse I am cold who is boat Spencer bird Spencer is I am my daddy's boy he was a nasty hard bastard are you and that's this way are you a nasty hard bastard no but I'm he's bi and I so that I'll never falls too far from the tree is that what you're arguing possibly I don't know if you jump on my back you'll get hurt okay if you don't jump on my back I love it and godly and 3-yard don't attack me cuz I am my daddy's boy and it'll come out she's not angry you know is it no it feels like a threat yeah shut up like a threat I have to you asked me a question I'm trying to answer it Who am I you answered it very clearly I did you did to maintain I understood for you was not threatening you it's not Sorrenti it's not threatening anyone if anyone jumps on my back with aggression in mind I can deal with it like my dad did I am my daddy's boy but if we cross you bar you've done it you've crossed that barrier I won't hurt you I'll discuss with you a question or question you a question anybody what does it mean to be labeled as a murderer just stop me if you could switch off time and go back in time to 1978 in 1978 what would you have changed in your life at that point I'd have been away on holiday away from the West Midlands the bad memories in 78 if if you want to stop you can stop just stop you know fair credit to him I keep trying to explain to him and thought people will look at this and he calls it trial by media well actually it's him burrs cold it's him that's it's him that set himself up as a court he's put himself in the dog as a criminal psychologist David Wilson is trained to evaluate offenders showing symptoms of psychopathy this is known as a peace can it's not a clinical diagnosis but a recognized method for evaluating the criminal mind widely used by law enforcement what I'll do tonight is I'm going to do a piece cat on him which is simply looking to see if based on the things that he's written the performances in terms of TV my own knowledge now of him through some 20 hours of interview am i dealing with somebody who's psychopathic I haven't slept for two nights thinking about did you start with the delve on this delve on that I'm not happy with him he's all to do with multiple psychotic killers is he trying to make me one is he trying to tie me into Karl Bridgewater and he feels as though in he years I wasn't there I wasn't guilty I know he's raising it all up again there criminalizes may uncle P bloody arrested I'm Eliza he's cut me on trial by media I want to ask him face-to-face what do you want to achieve from this broadcast the sound of a shotgun being discharged in an enclosed area like this is absolutely ear-shattering a thirteen-year-old newsboy from words least armored car Bridgewater never heard the shot that killed him he died instantly as he was blasted at point-blank range in the head professor David Wilson has now spent more than 20 hours talking to Bert Spencer and believes he may be displaying some of the classic symptoms of psychopathy for further insight David decided to contact Bert's daughter was still on good terms with him she was a friend of Carl's and played with him on the street where they both lived and she believes her father is innocent of murder but even she thinks there's more to the story than Bert will admit my god my dad was number one suspect I've always felt that he saw something that day Bert's daughter has a theory that while her father did not kill Carl he may have inadvertently stumbled across a crime scene at yew tree farm suddenly you hear a gunshot go off and then after it's all dispersed you go in and you see something and you can't believe what you're looking at and what you witness in and what you see and you just horrified I've tried to discuss that with him on an occasion but he was very emotional that's remarkable she herself says that she thinks her father was at yew tree farm on the day that Karl Bridgewater was murdered she herself believes that her father with who she retains a wonderful relationship hasn't revealed the full truth that there's something more going on and she thinks at the very least what more was going on was he was at the farm on the day that Karl was murdered no isn't that a powerful piece of testimony because this is not somebody who's attacking Bert this isn't Paul foo this isn't the bridgewater for campaign this is his own daughter hello again David thanks for coming all this way good to see you again and you're wearing a tie Burton David are returning two words Lee Stafford Shearer where Burt Spencer and Carl Bridgewater used to live as neighbors just five doors apart somewhere here Carl lived one of the houses and we lived in that one there which one that one nailer and Carl lived somewhere there so one two three four five doors away is coverage Lawson yeah yeah yeah gosh I kind of imagined see this is why I'm so interested to be here I kind of imagined that was gonna be really big no it is believe it's very intimate this was a kids playground all the kids play with each other yeah yeah but you have no memory of Carl whoa no we're now seeing Carl's picture in the paper but I thought yeah they all look like that they all I hope no one's offend the way I talk I'm not offending anyone it was just a kid playing with other kids meant nothing to me I said in the nicest possible way I didn't know him seen him perhaps hundreds of times da-jung down with his mates it's lovely to come back it's it's lovely to come back but doesn't this have released you're flabbergasted I'm flabbergasted why well I kind of thought this would be really emotional no it isn't it's lovely to come back and see how nice this place has been made driving away but suddenly spots another house he recognizes he asks to make an unscheduled stop Bob lived up here oh we've got a camera hello camera barbara was Burt's former secretary at the ambulance station 40 years ago and she's the woman who gave him a cast-iron alibi on the day Carl was murdered she has never spoken on camera before no no it's better this time loving better this time I wrote a book Barbara yeah to show why a lot of people were wrong in the allegations I'm gonna be crying I'm gonna be and what's a long long time you still look lovely Barbara Barbara answer me this question and I want that not to interrupt Germany the one bit from your witness statements that I wonder if we can clarify is that you didn't know if perhaps that had gone for lunch on the day that Karl Bridgewater had been murdered you didn't know he could have gone for lunch you said and he normally takes his lunch between 12:30 perhaps as late as to depart to lunch that day that Karl Bridgewater was murdered going back a few years now can I remember what to say I said with time but this is it I always used to go 1 o'clock to 1/2 1 but he had various times what he'd be missing it got lots of hospitals to help with it just come with recording so he could have gone for lunch on that day between those times yes yes well that's great I just wanted to clarify though and that's wonderful thank you yeah so did you go I went though I don't know if if try say you don't know yeah this is this is part the story they scatter this you've been the scapegoat for murder and you can't remember if you went home for lunch I used to me no I didn't I didn't have a set pattern David I was all over the bloody place and and my phone's never stopped and I was up so if you had no set pattern BER you could have been there four o'clock you could have been there at five o'clock yeah by ruling by opening up further possibilities you make it more complicated and more possible rather than less complicated let's close those possibilities that you're making in your mind and you're making them in my mind really nice enough I'd sure I didn't go home for lunch you'll have to believe me you can't disprove it I don't want us to argue any further we're not arguing we seriously discussing something that touches my emotions I've clarified that good I'm delighted to have met you Barbara yeah Bert insists that others saw him at the ambulance station on the day of Carl's murder but his so-called cast-iron alibi from his secretary Barbara is not as cast-iron as he's always claimed he called that this farm sometime after four o'clock to deliver the evening paper and I'm satisfied from the inquiries we've made that he disturbed or came across intruders to the house that he was either invited into the house of taken into the house and they're shot in the head at point-blank range quite cold-bloodedly and I can honestly think of no motive other than if he disturbed intruders we've got to go right here then it should be on the right Bertie's revisiting yew tree farm for the first time in almost four decades as a young man he worked and shot on the surrounding farmland and he himself admits having been inside the house on at least three occasions oh gosh this is it oh my god we're talking down here hundreds of times hundreds Atocha near the farm well crikey yes and had you been inside the farmhouse I had I'd been in his robe to them and sat down with them cup of tea with them I knew people come I knew the doctor came I knew someone delivered papers but not who what does it feel like to be standing outside the place this you know your name is attached to the story of the farm that once stood here I know and if Carl was alive what is it you would like to say - well come on thirty five years ago because of two horrific murder cases that happened in this vicinity your name and mine became intrinsically joinder how I wish we could have been fused together under different and happier circumstances through the through the power of silent prayer I have spoken to and prayed for you Carl and many times that's Carney's what I say to you god bless you and what do you think Carl might say back to you I really don't what do you think he might say he might say you kill them you might but he would know that that would be a lie you wouldn't say that is apparently a nice little boy scout you wouldn't lie why do you think he got murdered that day well I can only go on what the police said it was a robbery robbery and he got disturbed there's a robbery in progress robbers don't normally shoot 13 year old boys knowledge of ambulance man thank you very much point taken I'm Gallants men don't normally shoot their best friends an ambulance man David don't go an armed robbery in full dress uniform to places where they are very well-known for me he was shot because he could identify his killer I know what you're thinking but let me just make this perfectly clear I would not have under any circumstances come on an armed robbery to a farm I thought people were in and when I was known and I knew someone delivered papers now maybe you weren't doing an armed robbery you could have been doing anything you've spotted something when you were in the house you could have been taking things to sell on and Karl bridgewater because the back door was open was used to walking in of the back door was opened because he would deliver hand-deliver the papers to the elderly couple that's what's in the police statement so if he sees the back door open he walks in and he then encounter somebody and he goes oh hello mr. Spencer yeah that's the theory of yours is here no it's actually a theory that said a lot of the lies I've told about me and you still believe them I think that he was shot Carl was shot because he could identify that the person or people who were breaking in that's feasible is that feasible it's feasible I have no good against that but whoever he or they or them okay it certainly wasn't me who therefore who were arrested for it I believed had done it I don't know I believed it they did and you still believe they did yes I do while Bert says he still believes the bridgewater for were responsible for Carl's murder there is at least one other theory professor Wilson has uncovered during his recent investigations a theory that the police never tested at the time one other vehicle a green Land Rover was spotted in the driveway of yew tree farm on the day Carl Bridgewater was murdered and it is probable that that vehicle belonged to none other than Hubert Wilkes so had Wilkes seen something that incriminated Bert Spencer that day but was he possibly involved in the burglary himself here is the photo fear of one of the men that was seen that day yep and above is Hubert well should be more squinty a bit more generally it doesn't look like him you don't think that looks like I don't know he had no hair like that and he got squinty eyes he was generally you know I mean by that but that looks somewhat caning you don't think he could have been at yew tree farm that day I never thought that it's not a possibility yes Bert's wife Janet challenges his version of the events leading up to the murder of Wilkes especially the sexual advances and special cocktails but Janet did tell a local reporter at the time that there had been conversations about Carl that night we can confirm that mrs. Spencer told our reporter mr. Tony Bishop that there had been talk about the Carl Bridgewater case at Holloway house farm on the evening that mr. wilts was shot David Wilson and Bert Spencer will now meet for one last time David will confront Burt with his theory and present the results of his psychological assessment this broadcast this film will be rather like an Agatha Christie David it twists and turns halfway through it you still don't know if the butler did it if I found evidence that clearly proves that what you've told me was rubbish right bring it okay bring it okay how would you like him to be remembered as a cheerful boy always going around nice and cheerful and helpful and you never saw him miserable you know he was always smiling and happy you'll be tormented somebody else tomorrow are all your people as Professor David Wilson has spent the last six months looking into the murder of newspaper boy Carl Bridgewater and interviewing one time suspect Bert Spencer who has consistently denied any involvement in the boy's death all right you comfortable yes I think the phrase that you use that I always remember was that you said to me that you wouldn't run and you wouldn't hide I never do your alibi is the you were Corbett Hospital all day on the day that Karl Bridgewater was murdered there was another person at Corbett hospital that day who of course was Barbara bolt the others well but Barbara rifles in particular was we made a written statement I believe she made several written stream well okay I didn't know that others who worked in the same floor space made verbal yes okay he was here but they didn't write it down didn't have to the coppers at the time didn't do everything right what I think is right they didn't ask will you make a statement will you make a statement they didn't feel the need someone's already done it and Barbara ribald made those statements and as you know I've tracked down those statements and you were there when I asked her could she say that she was there all afternoon and was able to verify that you were there all afternoon and she can't she can't guarantee what times you may have left Corbett Hospital all afternoon means that you don't have a cast-iron alibi via The Alibi is well it disappears but I accept what you say I don't have now a cast-iron alibi do you have any evidence that I killed Karl Bridgewater if you do sir bring it forward if you don't shut your mouth okay you've now annoyed me you've you get annoyed by me fairly radio and you threaten me quite a lot it's not threatening it's right talking straight I also asked you but in relation to the Wilkes connection what was happening the night that you took Hubert wiltz life your wife at the time made statements to various places saying that Karl Bridgewater was mentioned that night only if it was I wasn't in the room at that time I didn't mention it she says it was mentioned I don't care what she says I'm not rubbishing her statement I'm saying to you I wasn't in the room when it was if it was you can't just say what she says it was that's what I'm saying to you that's my response Hubert will with goading you I wonder if that plays a part in relation to what happened that you have you spoken with Jean Wilkes who sat in the lounge that night no I haven't why well because I can't find Jean well there was no discussion of the karlby daughter Kate if there had it been David so what did you and Hubert Wilkes ever discuss robberies we never did right okay now I'm going to play you something but at the moment I'm particularly wanted you to hear what your daughter said in relation to Hubert Wilkes and the discussion of robberies I particularly remember he would stand fire with his back to the fire and I was lying on the settee he would just constantly talk about robberies and how you can commit the perfect crime by escaping through the woods I don't agree with that here but wilt used to come to my house and drink whiskey never discussed robberies with me so your daughter's wrong she's made a mistake or she doesn't think that bad okay a lot of people think I killed Carl Bridgewater I know I didn't but I can't change that opinion this is really where I'm coming to would you mind if I showed you something would I mind show me these nice dressing photographs show me these are the leaves of the crime scene photographs of Carl Bridgewater right that's at the scene I assume yeah yes okay that I've showed you that because I think with the fact that you no longer have an alibi that something happened that day that involved you at yew tree farm and I want you to listen again something that killed him inside if a story ever came out like I finished my shift dispersed and you just horrified [Music] was that what happened did you go to you tree farm that day your daughter thinks that you did go to you chief I heard what you said she also thinks it was after my shift after 5:00 p.m. too late too late mate even if I got there two quarter past when he passed there's no gunshot that was an hour to go did you go no I did not you you've forgotten the time she said did you go after your shooter for Christ's sake what for what I wasn't working there that month what for well after our first interview I did a piece gun on you my shed it means psychopathy scan so this isn't a clinical diagnosis this is a way that I can gain some insight into the person that I'm talking to and the total score for you was in the high range a total score that falls in the high range should be a cause for serious concern it suggests that the person of interest may have many or most of the features that define psychopathy such a person is likely to be egocentric callous cold-blooded predatory impulsive irresponsible dominant deceptive manipulative and lacking in empathy guilt or genuine remorse for socially deviant and criminal acts and that fits you to a tee it also fits you you Bokke some of the things you've said to a tee this is you've oh you are and you just condemned me then haven't you you are somebody that I regard as a psychopath as a liar yeah as somebody who is bent the truth as somebody who's manipulative as corning you're not this kindly old grandfather figure that's your stick but and I see through it and all I can say to you is in the absence of you having any alibi because you were there when Barbara Raible says she cannot stand up where you were on the afternoon but Carl Bridgewater was America say let me get a word in I am going to get a word in David I think you need to see a psychiatrist you are wrong so very wrong your egoistic all mister important what the hell does it matter what you think the evidence shows how the hell can I be there when I wasn't there you like to prove that go ahead do what you want but I think you need psychiatric treatments on there's something wrong with the way you think that is my belief I think now it's really a question for other people to make their decision these kinds of things because all I can do is tell you what I felt and I will raise this elsewhere okay do that thank you big silence in the room he's a [ __ ] nutcase I didn't know that I didn't know that he knows that if he starts admitting that he was at yew tree farm then actually then the police have got to be reinterviews it's all loaded absolute nonsense really is I could not believe what I was hearing he can't work it out so he instead of failing he wants me as a scapegoat I'll certainly stand by my man every inch of the way this psychopath needs a cuddle right [Music] well as ever in the world of birth Spencer just when you think you've got some kind of conclusion another opening offers itself as a possibility somebody's made contact with us that I've been wanting to speak to throughout this entire process Bert's first wife Janet has never spoken before on camera and has maintained the silence for some 38 years I don't know what she's going to say but I know whatever she says is going to be absolutely fascinating Bert and Janet married as teenagers had lived in words leave for their entire marriage this is the first time janet has ever spoken publicly about her husband why do you want to talk about it now after you've never spoken publicly to the press before by now why 38 years later because I just think it's about time I tell my side of the story Janet how long were you married - Bart Spencer for about 16 17 years what was it that first attracted you to him I don't know his personality came across you know it was a very nice person on the day that Carl Bridgewater was murdered did seem his normal self I came into the house walk so straight so is the kitchen which we've had a kitchen extension and it's however look at the garden nice big window and I saw bird standing there with his hands in his pockets body language telling movie wasn't very happy and I also noticed a jumper that had been pegged on the line in which which a man had put her women down picked jumpers on now at that I went down so I must him and I have seen our Chi he said he didn't feel very well was that one of Burt's work jumpers what color was it it was a casual jumper green a green jumper did you ever see that jumper again never but it was it was it clear to you the burr had washed the jumper yeah it just disappeared just disappeared mm-hmm the night that Carl was murdered you went out to celebrate a family member's birthday yeah what happened when you and Bert came home from that celebration we came home fairly early before 10 o'clock and he went to bed I put a television on and I was listening to news at 10:00 I think it was at that time and of course their headlines were all to do is very murder of car and as I listened so he saw the fact that he'd live very close to where we used to live here he was the farm and then I know Bert had gone up the farm shoot Sheila he knew the area well and I was was just horrified with all the connections really to all such a birth so I I went upstairs into the bedroom shook his arm he wasn't asleep and I just said to him please God please tell my that you had nothing to do with that murder you know and his reply was now our didn't but don't you think they'll be after night on my patch that was his reply Janet in September 1978 turds Bert own a shotgun yes you did what happened to that shotgun I remember him saying probably the day after Karl Bridgewater that God would a peach water murder this he ought to you know get rid of Esau Ty keep somewhere and I don't know what happened sorry buddy there was a gun in the house at the time and he did have a shotgun license for it I need disposed of the shotgun the day after car Bridgewater was heard yeah did you question him about why he wanted to do that no I'm afraid not how didn't hi my name is my husband I just couldn't believe that it's you know it'd be anywhere remotely involved in something like that I should have done I suppose but you know as you said yourself is it's very plausible man I've just wanted to believe that's you've got nothing to do with it so I didn't ask what he'd done with this well was about worried yeah the next day I think I don't know whether that place or in the next I but certainly about had a few calls about him yet he was he was concerned and I said well I don't know why you're worried because you really work and what did he say to that he says well I I wasn't there all day he said he wasn't at work all day hmm he said I went there all the time because I said well it's just because I didn't feel well so he said I was in the toilets for a long time I saw me problem I said well surely someone must have seen now some that I have must have heard you all saying you go in the toilet [ __ ] now that clearly collected antiques bought and sold antiques were you ever worried that some of those antiques were stolen now I never suspected that although he did a lot of will wheeler daily but there was a time in between before mr. Wilkes was shot something was found in in one of our friends shed a bag containing antiques have been found in their shade because someone had same bird coming out of their driveway and so the husband went down to have a look in the shed and found this bag of antique brass we're and copper and and and suckled beretta bassist Robert had been us two movies an IDs question him about this bag and his words to me where you must never ever tell anybody about that ever so I said well how can but you know what happened so then I said it he buried them somewhere around the Prescott area which is off the i-44 now when you put all the various pieces of information that you're in possession of together now what does it lead you to conclude well man it was now concrete and evidence but I really believe he did Navin if it didn't actually show he he now is more about that and he's later on would it surprise you if the truth was about Spencer your ex-husband killed Carl Bridgewater would that surprise you no it wouldn't in fact do you suspect that's what happened well you know it's hard to sigh but deep down yes I probably I do really now it's it's something I've had to live with for a long time but I'm not saying anything oh my might amount to nothing what my memories are but would you like the police to reopen this case well are can I say that that's the only course of action that I think he's you know because he's written a book and I've got a documentary coming that's you know he's forced my hand really I've never ever spoken before [Music] regardless of all of the allegations that keep coming my way here this I will never ever be a scapegoat for the murder of Carl Bridgewater for you or any other idiot who comes forward with allegedly accusations I feel sure there will be more in the future I will cope with them [Music] you

Channel: Real Stories

Views: 4,476,146

Keywords: Real Stories, Real Stories Full Documentary, Real Stories Documentary, Full length Documentaries, crime documentary, true crime documentary, real stories crime, real stroeis true crime, real stories documentary crime, bert spencer interview, bert spencer david wilson, interview with a murderer, interview bert spencer, bert spencer, david wilson, david wilson interview with a murderer, david wilson interview, interview with a killer

Id: RODwEfemEBs

Length: 79min 30sec (4770 seconds)

Published: Sat Oct 20 2018

Reddit Comments

[u/iWinston]

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

[u/magickitty92]

Riveting. Wow if you want to learn about psychopathy -this is a good way to start.

[u/polishgravy]

How was he not charged but convicted?