INR5: Matt Dillahunty "Hyperbole Will Destroy The World"

so there are people you won't like my parents and other people that I was raised with would like to take credit when I'm being nice you know that talks about oh he cares about humanity is such a good it just baffles the hell out of them that I can somehow both be working for Satan and still be pretty nice so they give all the credit for the nice parts to God and I'm like no I'm a better person now than I was then so I don't have to have all of that baggage I was actually a title for tonight's talk and normally I don't bother titling talks I write almost a new one for almost every event but this is I did this parts of this last week in Kentucky at the Kentucky free thought convention I called it hyperbole will destroy the world and I have to begin by pointing out for English majors word nerds and other people like me who might be drawn to being overly pedantic about things yes I know hyperbole is a great literary device I mean that it tends to lose its effectiveness when we're using it in conversations and debates because if you say something like oh this weighs a ton the implication is that everybody knows that it doesn't actually weigh a ton which is why a little gravitas to what you're saying but if you say I've witnessed a miracle oh wait how do you define miracle what is it that you're talking about because I'd like to think that that's hyperbole and I can just shrug it off but you might actually mean that you witness something that is supernatural coming in to save us all and I don't buy that so it gets confusing because we're not necessarily clear so I understand that most of what I'm going to talk about has nothing to do really with hyperbole I'm talking about exaggerations but the title was just too good not to use it because reactionary exaggerative creation of caricatures will negatively impact conversations and efforts to improve the world by creating barriers and unnecessary divisions which inhibit productive conversations just doesn't sound as good as hyperbole will destroy the world a lot of it can sound something we're all guilty of we're right I was right before when I was wrong I know I'm right and I know you're wrong I already I've already I've already done the hard work of knowing that I'm writing you're wrong and it's far more important for me to show you or say that I'm right and you're wrong than it is for me to show that I'm right and you're wrong these types of exaggerations come up all the time in all sorts of areas that plague our communities and by that I'm talking about the Atheist community the skeptic community the free thinker community whatever freaking label you want to put on it comes up in every conversation there are many times where it's not even hyperbole it's just kind of overstating the case it's you're really confident and so you're gonna take that extra step you've been having this reason conversation you've spoken to believers over and over again you know where they're going you know where you want to get you've got to hurry up hurry up and then you may go just a bridge too far and you may still be right for example one of the things I cautioned people about when I did a video talking about not overstating the case for fear that you might accidentally shift the burden of proof to something you can't meet is this assertion that Jesus never existed maybe he didn't I'm perfectly fine with that possibility I have my friend Richard carrier just wrote a 700 plus page tome covering this trying to use Bayesian analysis to determine and you know it was it probable I think dr. price is probably going to talk about it tomorrow with the existence of Jesus or the the myth area of this and that's great because I love the conversation is an intellectual pursuit but if you're talking to my mom and trying to convince her that she's wrong I don't care how good your scholarship is on Jesus mythos ISM you don't know your audience and you're adopting a burden of proof now that you're probably never going to be able to meet we're already in a position where the bulk of historians kind of view this is a a narrow little niche and a perversion and they scoff and whatever and what needs to happen is the work that some people are doing to demonstrate that this is the case but I don't want to adopt that because I don't need to demonstrate that he was a myth in order to point out that this is still I could granted that he existed and say do we have a good record of his words and deeds I don't see that we do I don't know how you've determined that and so I can't get behind it I can grant that he existed in that we a good record of his words but perhaps not his deeds now all of a sudden we just have to look at his words and say yep he said this do we have any reason to believe it's true I could grant that maybe we even have some reasons to believe that he might have known he's talking about it this was an amalgamation different people whatever bla bla bla bla bla and he fed the multitudes with loaves and fishes how did you determine that the reason he was able to do that was because it was God how did you rule out you know aliens how did you rule out every other possible naturalistic explanation to determine that the supernatural explanation is the most likely when the whole foundations of science are based on methodological naturalism the recognition that we seem to currently be blocked from confirming supernatural causation and we're not even sure how somebody could demonstrate that it's possible they're the ones who believe something got the burden of proof why would I shift that by exaggerating my position how many have heard former believers this may primarily be a Southern Baptist thing I know that I know that I know that I know that Jesus Christ is Lord and risen boy if that's not exaggeration you don't know that you don't know that you know that you know that you know that you think that you know that you believe that this is what you're going to say I will I will pick on someone who Sam Harris sorry I mean he and I are we are in an agreement in alignment on many things some other things were not that's the way it is by the way that's true for me and everybody me and South me and RN me and Sammy and Richard whoever picked somebody I'll get more to disagreements in a bit but Sam Harris and Leonard Christian nation included this thing where the Bible says pi equals 3 no it doesn't of all that's a teeny little book it's a teeny little letter and if you're gonna go after the Bible why would you pick something so obviously spun out into it you know the land of interpretation and exaggeration why not pick something better the Bible doesn't say pi equals three tubes soom that these people had anything any concept that they were coming up with a mathematical constant when they were or a mathematical description of the universe when they were describing a well that happened to be these people were measuring from their elbows to their fingertips not all that accurate why not use something better and yet apologists throw all of themselves trying to come up with defenses and I saw pictures of wells that were like that well would come up and then it had a broader border at the top so that you could get your 10 across measurement near 30 around anybody's nuts none of that's gonna convince anybody but you're so right that you're so convinced that you're right and they're wrong that you just go with it preachers are just in it for the money stop preachers in megachurches maybe some could be Joel Osteen maybe most preachers have a second job some of them have a third job this isn't some top-down institution where the next preacher is picked on high by a ruling class and let in on the secrets this is a system where people like me who sat in the Pew feel called and work their way up there the church may in fact pay for their education but they're doing it because they believe it I didn't when I was a teenager I thought I was supposed to be a preacher that's what God wanted that's what my parents thought that's what the other people in my youth group thought I am by the way somewhat of a preacher and that's but not the way they expected but I was terrified of public speaking so I ran off join the Navy didn't want to do that That's not me no no there's some irony afraid of public speaking turns out by the way the secret of public speaking is don't people tell them what you think you want to say I don't know these are my thoughts you accept it you don't boom done man that shit's easy but I didn't want to do that I was terrified of public speaking everybody thought but I wasn't in any way in it for the money I mean this is some calling and every preacher I ever had wasn't in it for the money most those guys didn't get rich and by waiters guys almost exclusively I don't think I've ever seen a Southern Baptist woman as a preacher they're usually in control of a lot of things behind the scenes even though you know because God's pretty much dead set against them actually being in charge of a man so they're really way smarter than us and they do it like the the string pulling from honey I think we should yep whatever you say my wife loves it I was raised Southern Baptist religion is a scam well a scam implies some intent to deceive and people have asked me for years aren't you mad that your parents raised through Southern Baptist aren't you mad at those preachers they all lied to you they were scamming you no they didn't know they weren't scam is an intent to deceive somebody a lie is an intentional deceit my parents taught me what they honestly believed was correct they happened to be wrong so far as I can tell but there was no malice and no intent to deceive and the same is true for the preachers that I grew up with I'm not mad at them they're victims just as I was they are guilty of nothing more than being human beings who don't think correctly they were raised in environment they were taught these things they accepted it it made sense it makes them feel good and that's it does that mean there's not Liars out there no tons of them don't know who they are because I can't read minds no matter how much time I spend doing magic and mentalism onstage different things I actually can't read minds religions a tool to control people can be used that way but when you start saying it was intended to be that way now you've adopted a burden of proof that you need to meet we are generally good at being little quasi Mon droit mind reader's we read people's intentions all the time walking around the crowded airport I don't have to exchange conversations with everybody who's moving around I read their body language I see which way they're going you make eye contact with somebody and there's an unspoken communication yeah I am kind of going to the right or I am going to cross here and we just go we do it we do it all the time we're so good at it we don't even need to be able to see the person in their face because we do it in cars on the road our body language extends out to the cars is it any surprise that people might take that and say wow I think I'm a little bit psychic you get this constant confirmation of your intuitions about picking up the phone and things like that you build this stuff up and it makes sense but we can't actually read minds if we could we could apply for the jrf million-dollar prize but we certainly act like we can read minds and we do it all the time and it's to me it's been kind of frustrating does Ray Comfort really believe what he says I don't know I can't read minds I'm willing to take his word for it I've met a lot of people who say the same things that he does that seem to believe I know that I actually honestly believe those things when I was a believer I would actually need some strong evidence that he'd someone doesn't actually believe what they say what about Joel Osteen I don't know I'm not sure what it is that he says he believes how do you get a stadium a former like Indy was NBA basketball stadium or something we went to the church aren't and Phil and I went there and toured it it's amazing and they're so proud he doesn't take a dime of money he doesn't get paid at all for his service to the church well if I was making all that money off the books that they sell in the church I wouldn't make you pay me a salary either if I could afford to set aside this three and a half million dollar mansion while I move up to the ten million dollar mansion and wait for the property values to change before I sell this one off for five what do I need with a salary from your church I should be paying you I bet he's never thought that pat robertson believed Falwell peter Popoff surely he couldn't believe I mean we've caught him fraud he's got his earpiece in he's getting messages from his wife she's saying all kinds of racist crappy things and it's clear that this is a fraud and I agree but I can't tell you what he actually believes and one of the things about belief is that once you get convinced of something you can get convinced of the peripheral things as well and then you may not rationalize excuses for this like oh I believe God's actually healing people but my wife's just telling me this stuff because God doesn't do it as often as we might like and it's really important for me to convince people that God's doing it now so that they stay in the church so that they keep contributing so that the real miracles can happen the way we rationalize things is amazing something that Seth pointed out kind of drives me a little nuts but well I I'll skip that for half a second here this idea of reading minds is something a conversation my wife and I've had a number of times because she and some of her friends when talking about the religious right when it comes to women's issues would they say things like the religious right just want to control sex the religious right just want to punish women for having sex the religious right just want to punish women for trying to control their own bodies the religious right want to make women slaves to their biology don't say any of those by the way when I say stuff like don't say any of those I'm not up here as the you shall do what I say in case that wasn't clear I'm telling you why I think this is a bad idea and it's because you're pretending to be a mind reader you pretend to know what their intentions are and not only are you doing that but you're almost certainly wrong when I was part of the religious right I didn't want to make women slaves to their biology I didn't want to control sex I didn't want to punish women not even loose women I wanted to find loose women I just couldn't tell anybody about it don't say what their intent saw what their intentions are unless you can demonstrate it instead say that the religious right wanna institute policies that have the effect of punishing women for their biology making them slaves their biology and controlling sex because that's what they're doing and you haven't adopted a burden of proof with regard to their intentions you say their policies do these things and they don't care enough about it to stop and now you hammered them just as strongly as before but without the added weakness of pretending that you can read minds religious people are stupid ah my IQ didn't go up when I found my way out of religion I just had better better ways of looking at things I had more access to more information I had a better understanding the world in some context some people may say well you do you're not as stupid as you were fine then let's be clear about the context because there are plenty of brilliant people who have believed and who do believe we oversimplify we talk about oh well they're defending something that's stupid so therefore they must be stupid being stupid acting stupid stupid on this issue these are getting more specific they're so that you're not summarizing the entirety of somebody's character I'm now going to make fun of some stupid comments and the debate that I did in Church of Christ in San Antonio there was a guy who got up and said the gravity is responsible for 78% of all accidents involving following bodies I don't know what the other 22 is caused by but he gets up there he's a preacher this was a parade of preachers coming up to the podium they're talking to other preachers it was one of my favorite was probably my favorite debate of all time because it was over the course of three nights it was nothing but Christians pretty much and it was nothing but Christian preachers from the church Christ pretty much say that nothing pretty much the hyperbole with the sorry gravity is responsible for 78 percent of all accidents and following falling bodies and I just grabbed my wife's arm and I was like oh I tweeted it and they got pissed because I'm making fun of them the thing is I don't think he's generally stupid hope for all I know he misspoke for all I know he was actually citing some actual statistic about you know whether or not you're pushed or fall over I don't know but it struck me as funny oh no you're making fun of us okay somebody else got up to say and he's a physicist although he hasn't done any physics since the early 70s because became a preacher got up to say that we can't know that God answers any specific prayer if we pray and it comes to pass we cannot know that God actually did that but we can know that God answers some prayers wait a minute if this is true for each individual instance I pray I can't know whether God even if it comes true I can't know whether or not God did at that time I pray nope I pray yes but maybe then how is it for the entire series he can say that we're certain that God does that sometimes it's a horrible mistake there he's got it on his slide there was this parade of preachers getting up there mocking people with letters after their name oh my gosh I really wish no I don't I was gonna say I wish that Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss could watch these debates because they were mentioned over and over and over again but I like them too much to want them to actually have to sit through this but they kept mocking the idea of people with letters after their names and one of the preachers got up and said I don't know much about the science but I talk preacher friend of mine who does so let me tell you why the science is wrong I don't mind ignorance it's fixable with education I don't even mind willful ignorance so much I mean I do but I mean it's one of those things that this is your choice I I'm a fan enough of freedom that if you really truly want to be ignorant well bless your heart but what I can't stand is the celebration of willful ignorance and the encouragement of other people to embrace it as well it's like Don Don McLeroy from the Texas State Board of Education saying somebody's got to stand up to the experts thanks dentist please enlighten us when they're up there and they're saying these things they're exaggerating and the problem with this is that when the preachers get up there and do it they're the experts to the people who are out in diffuse so the experts are expressing this incredible confidence in their position that the people in the pews haven't supposedly studied to the same extent as the person standing in front of them so now these people are extra confident and they're probably either going to repeat what this guy just exaggerated or they're gonna exaggerate it more let's not do that if I say something up here if Seth says something if Arendt said something anybody I don't care who it is if they say something up here and you really find it important and you think that it's probably true if it's possible to fact-check it do it make sure that I didn't just exaggerate or miss remember there's no point in its letting it spin out of control first debate I did against Father Hans Jacob see at UNBC agreed with me through the whole process yes you can come to correct moral conclusions through purely secular means because that's what the debate was secular morality actually almost every debate I've had turned out to be about morality even if that wasn't the topic there's only a couple exceptions and then in the closing when I couldn't respond to get and he says secular moral secular morality necessarily leads to Nazis and gulags and eugenics okay now let me let me check you here real quick you are you just exaggerating or you know does this this is it so he goes off on his little tirade and he knows I can't respond to him thankfully during the Q&A right after their like the third person asks a question basically said hey what you think it was closing because then I could reply over the course of this I started a patreon project that kind of has the discussions about how to have debates I'm not asking you all to donate although if you want to whatever but the contents available for free to people to talk about how better to how to better have these conversations how do you lose an argument because I get lots and lots of unsolicited advice through the emails like oh you know for any given call that somebody calls into the show one person will send an email saying ah just to understand how you maintained your patience you you almost convinced me there's a god because you are like the the saint of patience and then somebody else are right into my oh my god you're an arrogant dick how could you talk down to that person that way and they're talking about the same exact telephone call and as long as I'm getting both of them I'm okay I'm gonna keep going when it begins to lean you know almost entirely one way then I'll have to do some work there but one of the ways that people suggest you lose an argument is if you are the first one to lose your temper I completely disagree because there are times when losing your cool is justified there are times when if you're not angry upset irritated at what was just said you're not paying attention don't confuse passion with anger just cuz somebody gets angry doesn't mean that you get to dismiss the content of what they're saying if you get into the style over substance well you're no longer interested and having the conversation this is theater there's a reason I wear these boots just for the people who actually I like them but for the people who are more interested in theater oh let's put some style up there because if I came up in gym shorts and flip-flops all of a sudden people take me less seriously I did an entire episode of the show in drag specifically to debunk this point spoke with my normal voice I was not trying to be insulting to anybody I did the show and drag and the whole point was what I'm saying is not impacted in any way by Who I am what I like to do how I like to dress any of that other stuff and if you think it does screw you you are not willing you are not yet ready to get into conversations at these level just losing your temper cost you a debate it can but merely saying that losing your temper because oh you lost his temper first he loses Wow bite me I'll debate your dumb ass next Oh what about the first to use profanity no there's a time and a place for that too and I'll Google or go to youtube Stephen Fry on swearing it's all you need to hear ever everybody heard somebody Bry already heard it those aren't the ways that I find that you are more likely to lose the debate you know how most debates are lost the first person to make an exaggerated unsupported assertion which can be used to demonstrate bias ignorant dishonesty zealousness and irrationality and is actually caught doing that by their opponent because sometimes it just flies right by that's when you're at risk of losing debate they didn't do anything you did it you make it easy to mock and parody your position the more obviously exaggerated and ridiculous your claims are so let the other side do that let them be the ones to work from a script let them be the ones to constantly demonstrate that they don't understand the topic let's the rest of us dig in or say you know what I don't know or hey I don't really have a good answer for that right now can I go back and research that because most of us are never going to be in a formal debate with times and judges we're gonna be having conversations with our family and friends so why would we ever ever try to pretend that we have the answer when it's so much easier to say that's a good that's that's an interesting question let me think about that and get back to you and then go off and do research try and find some people who might know and if nobody knows be ready to say I don't know and it appears that nobody else does how can we find out because if they're the ones claiming to have the answer to the thing that nobody else seems to know now they get to tell you how they came by that answer I'm very hard on bad arguments especially when they come from people who are ostensibly representing my size if an issue I'm a lot nicer on the people who have bad arguments that you know of course yeah that inflatable earth theory you know not quite there yet on your on your science but you get back to me when it's there and then I will accept it here's the big secret Christians are stupid and so are Hindus and Scientologists and Muslims and Mormons and Lutheran's and Catholics Jains and Buddhists so are atheists and agnostics and skeptics and secularists and freethinkers and deists and so Republicans and Democrats and greens and libertarians and socialists and especially communists we're all stupid about something at some point this isn't the sum total of our character to be stupid or wrong or moronic or idiotic it's who we are we engage in the exaggerated oversimplifications that are hyperbolic and reactionary when we're trying to talk to someone that we disagree with we're demonstrating that no matter how idiotic their position may be you might be doing worse by exaggerating your position because even though they might have the burden of proof you know hey I believe it God exists great please demonstrate that when you adopt a burden of proof that you can't meet not only did you fail to convey your position you've reinforced theirs in some people's minds it shouldn't be I know it's a fallacy but that's the way it really works ah he tried to prove Jesus didn't exist and failed therefore Jesus really really really existed No so why do it we've seen it in discussions between believers and non-believers we've seen it in discussions about social justice issue we see it all the time where now that I found out that you're an idiot on this issue I'm gonna summarize your character by that and then write you off as you know you are the evil side now no matter how much stuff we happen to agree on you're the enemy because this is the issue I'm focused on now and we disagree here no matter how subtly we may disagree we see it over and over again don't get me wrong Phil Plait did this talk at the amazing meeting several years ago about don't be a dick in which I think he was being a dick by not specifically coming up with any examples or people or nothing when he got done I'm like well what's he talking about he talked about a youtube comment is you talking about you know something I posted somewhere who knows that's kind of a dick move let everybody just I think he's talking about so-and-so think he's talking about let me be clear I'm not talking about anybody in in particular in any of this ridicule is useful ridiculous ideas are as far as I can tell deserving of ridicule there's a difference in how you address ideas versus how you address people I don't think I can be an arrogant ass in case you didn't know there are occasions when people have called into the show where I have actually apologized afterward I don't know me I'm diabetic me my sugar was a little wonky maybe I had just heard Pascal's wager for one two times maybe maybe the next time somebody tells me to look at the trees I'm just gonna yeah I don't know happens recognized as good as they give on the show that if they're willing to have a conversation recognize points move things forward that call might take 40 minutes if they're not no no no you're done call some Christian show there's a million of them there's one of this one mockery is useful people like it when Christians call into the show and say something ridiculous and they're exposed and embarrassed and it's like yay hooray team let's keep making them stupid we're making them look stupid no I don't me wrong I'm not without ego and I'm not without the possibility of taking pleasure in someone doing that but that's not the goal and it's not the reason I do the show and it's not the thing that I look back at the show and say man I'm really happy that person called made themselves look stupid man I'm really really really happy that g-man an african-american in the United States called in to say that he'd be okay with slavery and well I the declaring victory is a whole nother issue I don't know if there's anybody I've ever debated who didn't clear victory fine the rest of us know reality III didn't take any pleasure in the fact that I am sad I'm talkin bout what the Bible says he's like no no no I'm making all excuses for it and redefine slavery and twisting things out just accept it your minds been so poisoned by these religious ideas that you will bend over backwards in exaggerated to defend him those aren't my favorite moments from the show I care more about how we disagree than the fact that we disagree or perhaps even the topic about which we might disagree the Reverend Barry Len who's like the head of Americans United for church-state separation I've shared the podium with him many times and I would again and I would debate the pants off of him if we were discussing whether or not a God existed I'd love that but I'm happier to share a stage with him then some atheists and skeptics that I know who are prone to let they let the other side be the ones that are claimed to know things to know that they know that they know that they know I never offer a demonstration let them be the ones that are looking irrational and reactionary let to be the ones that are saying things that are incredibly divisive let them shatter their group I'm not saying don't argue I'm not saying don't have positions I'm not saying don't mock don't ridicule I'm saying think about what you're doing when you have these conversations and it doesn't numbness to my with me and a theist me and anybody what's your goal what's your reason for doing this is it show how smart you are how clever you are how right you are where is it to make the world a better place oh well you're the you're on the TV show you call people morons Anita to hang up on yes sometimes I'm right sometimes I'm not not perfect like I said I'm not giving you instructions telling you what I think you'd be wise to take them as instructions but they are not intended explicitly in that way I don't get to be the ultimate arbiter of what qualifies as anything because the ideas are shared and we have these conversations we have to remember that we're dealing with people I'm not preaching unity or hive mind I'm not preaching don't be confrontational oh my gosh I've been saying for years we need firebrands and diplomats and I think that on some occasions I'm wanted on some occasions I'm the other and I still don't necessarily have it right about when to switch but I'll keep working on it we need firebrands and diplomats we need to have compassion for believers because they're victims they're victims of being human of being imperfect human beings who've been presented with an idea that everybody around them seem to accept and they accepted it too how stupid these ideas that seem to be reinforced these ideas that ease their discomfort with the unknown and their concerns about dying it's not surprising to me that religious ideas have existed and thrived and they need to be destroyed if they're not true they need to be destroyed there's lots of ways to do that mere mockery mere exaggeration mere you're an idiot is never gonna get there we need good arguments and less hyperbole because if that doesn't happen the divisive parade of horrible hyperbolic reactionary arguments and claims that we see will continue to harm every single cause they touch no matter how right that position may be and it will continue to divide or expand divisions until in some sense it destroys the world and I'd rather that didn't happen because I either like this world or I like what this world can become and either way it's the only world I've got so far as I can tell so let's all stop it up Thanks you

Channel: BillJ Castleman

Views: 38,537

Rating: 4.9331102 out of 5

Keywords: Matt Dillahunty, Athiest, Athiest Experience, INR5, Imagine No Religion 5, Unholy Trinity, Humanist

Id: c8rgDC28oo4

Length: 34min 57sec (2097 seconds)

Published: Sun Jun 28 2015