'India Doesn't Know China Well Enough, It's A Weakness'

[Applause] hello and welcome to HSN I am Surya gangadharan China is marking the 70th anniversary of its founding as a communist Republic and there are parades galore in Beijing today and tomorrow although tomorrow is the big day and time for us here in India to look at the India China narrative and try and flush out what is it about China that makes it so intimidating and so powerful and so impressive too I have with me professor BRD puck of java linear University he's a linguist he's a specialist in China studies he's adept at the Mandarin language he studied it for many years and he writes frequently on India China issues professor Deepak welcome and thank you for this interview thank you the in the narrative you get in India about China is uniformly negative is this fair is it actually does it actually reflect what is happening between us not exactly you know I would say that it is from both sides you know in fact back in 2017 you know post-doc LOM Global Times which has now been read by various people in this country so they had one annual conference and I was one of the speakers in the annual conference and you know working language with Chinese so that's why they must have invited me and there was heated discussion and the anchor he intervened and he turned to me was a deepest what is your b1 they say I said you see you know so China looks down upon India and India doesn't think big of China this paradigm you know from both the sides it is problematic in and there may be some truth in this you know how these kind of approaches they have formulated you know on both sides of the border but essentially they remain problematic in so one why in a China looks down upon India it is I believe we have to go back in history especially the modern period you know so during the modern periods when we were under British you know that time the kind of Chinese people so they came to India so they made the narrative you know where they thought that India was an unpublished country Indian people so they will not fit to fight the British subjugation and it was sort of like shadow country and we should not be looking at a country which cannot fight for its own survival in and these were images including their you know famous writer lotion so he had similar narrative you know about India and the he even criticizes Tagore as you know a poisonous the terrain nothing to learn from India and I think these images they were carried on you know to the People's Republic of China and People's Republic of China you know during its initially is especially one you know beef were talking about suzerainty versus sovereignty issue and that I think also deepened you know this kind of these kind of perceptions in the minds of the Chinese people and I think we had some opportunity if during say 50s and even 70s to resolve some of our differences but somehow I believe be a lost though the opportunity and in the last 40 years especially you know since the reforms so China has made tremendous in achievements I would say that you know it is you know only one country which had achieved so much you know in the history of mankind in the shortest possible time in sustaining a growth rate of 9% you know for 40 long years it is extremely impressive and that is how you know today of China so when it compared India it compares its GDP which is five times larger than India it compares its defense spending which is again five times you know more than us it compares is human index indicators which are way had us whether it is education higher education top ranking of their universities you know you can say Social Welfare so and so forth in I mean these are some of the indicators I think the approach with which they formulated about India during the modern history of Indian China relations and then you know by this you can say humongous achievement which they may during the last 40 years so the gap it has widened to such an extent so that there is a feeling you know in Chinese people so that we are much much ahead of you know India but I think perception again that way I that's what I said that you know India doesn't think big of in China you know that is also a you know a problem in that paradigm because I think when we talk about our civil additional context with China undoubtely in India influenced it in big wave either it was our literature whether it was our astronomy our mathematics you know our ideas even technology you know whether sugar making technology so on say China learn it from us you but I think you know this kind of image it is extremely deep rooted in the Indian mindset and believes that we were always stronger spiritually than China and we can still you know in beat them as far as spiritualism is concerning but I think during the modern period also you know because of maybe our connection with the British our forces going into China you know suppressing the Chinese rebellions and popular movement you know that also I mean if the part of the problem in so I mean the problem of you know looking down a brown and not thinking big about that it both are problematic I think we should move away from these paradigms and realistically and constructively think about you know what is doable because China should not believe that India is a banana republic it is a small country you know as we have in the periphery it is a big country it is one of the emerging poll polls of economic growth in the world and that is the consensus you know not only within India but outside that within the decade we are going to be the third largest economy in the world so China I think to some extent they have also started to take us seriously and that's how we find you know Chinese enterprises making their ways to India in a big fail now when you talk to Chinese scholars I was at a meeting of Chinese and Indian scholars recently and I recall one of them saying that China does not regard India as a strategic competitor now from what you have told me there is a recognition in China that we could be a power maybe in a decade or so but they would still like to leverage whatever power they have now to try and keep us down or at a disadvantage how does this actually work out do you think they really believe we are not a competitor or somewhere down the line there is a sense that we are at danger perhaps I think you know as far as talent situation is concerned and given the comprehensive national strength of both the country China really doesn't believe that we are the real competitor at this point in time and I think all their energy they are channelized towards United States so United States have been designated as enemy number one and the competitor number one which I believe under present circumstances is also maybe understandable because China has emerged as the only challenger you know to the existing hegemon so that it United States of America and so their defense capabilities you know even that economic orientation and the global economic dynamics so they are you know revolving around this perception and we would have you know no doubt when we interpret that bulk and Road initiative so it is also you know one of the you can say measures to check or I would rather say that it is and it is a pre-emptive surgical strike on the American Dee globalization American protectionism and American nativism and China trying to you know take a global stage and trying to dislodge united states narrative you know from not only the region that is the asia-pacific but also all over the globe in and that is how we will see that in a search ina is increasingly taking a center stage as far as geopolitics and geo economics at global stage is concerned and Bri just one of the indicators of that in have we correctly read the Chinese and how do you see the manner in which we are trying to counter them I think we have not in I would simply say we have not because we have not built the kind of capacity we should have done in order to understand China the for example our you know understanding of China's foreign policy understanding of China's you know strategic affairs understanding of China's civilization culture you know so and so forth it is extremely shaky because I believe that China studied in this country they started pretty late in even if the goal founded Bishop worth in 1921 and China studies were initiated but the discourse primarily civilizational in so it was only after the 1962 conflict that they started to lay emphasis on China's foreign policy its defense and so on and so forth in it and even now you know we have not built the kind of capacity B should have been building for example I also do a bit of translation you know what Chinese scholars they're doing about India and you won't believe that major mainstream Indian literature it has been long translated into Chinese in everything you know from remain Mahabharata Mudbug but gita surah das you know ramcharitmanas you know source agar serene and das this Ram Jarrett Manas including even today you know the Sultan literature you know which we find so it all has been translated into Chinese it and if I compare because I I am engaged in some of the projects you know with Ministry of External Affairs and one of them is a translation of Chinese classics and modern contemporary works into Hindi so we have selected just 25 in and this is just started off now so I think before be you know be be be have a correct understanding of China we need to have a correct understanding of Chinese civilization China the history Chinese fun policy Chinese defense and you know various phases of say social cultural problems you know which exists inside in China but the problem of Indian China's quality of that we don't have direct access you know to these areas or these demands because of the language and whatever is available with us so we try to take a circuitous route either through Europe or to America which i think is not a proper way to understand China essentially we are I think creating sort of like lopsided understanding of China if we are taking a third I wrote him so based on what you've just told me how do you read our policy towards China the measures that we take with them against them you know what is your reading of how do you analyze it I think you know as far as security environment in a between India and China is concerned to be very frank so it has improved a great deal right from the first confidence-building measure I will say you know 1954 when we signed you know the first agreement it is also known as you know this punchy Sheila yeah in 1954 so that was I would say that first you know confidence-building measure or crisis management mechanism in a between India and China and followed by then you know you know series of course after the conflict over the deep freeze and then you know from 1988 onward jwg and then you know a series of confidence-building in 93 96 2005 2012 so on and so forth so I think these majors to some extent so they have stabilized you know our bodies with China even though there are you know incursions or transgressions and I believe they are from the both sides you know because we are not clear about you know the a lysine line of actual control and the perception so they are essentially different you know but having said that I think these measures so they are I would say we are managing our you know differences we are not trying to resolve them in we are just controlling and managing them to certain extent and that is why you know so we have certain stability but as soon as the relationship deteriorates if there is another transgression you know then everything goes up it goes up for example in Dhokla here you know before that during the President Xi Jinping's with it in 2014 like in Tamar sector and in Dalek peg Aldine so I mean neither if our I think you know some of the majors which are only controlling and managing our differences in so what should be doing is rather than controlling we should be finding a long lasting solution so I just want to ask you here there is a perception in India that China is not interested in resolving anything because they don't see it as a competitor and therefore we are not quite relevant and therefore whatever whatever you know so is that a direct perception I think at this point in time maybe yes you know because China you know given the Earth's metrical relationship you know bid India naturally so they are at the Huayra position and they would not like to lose the ground so in fact I would say that you know be had a couple of opportunities which we didn't encash the last one you know being this 1979-80 when they again talked about the package deal and we didn't even bother to ask them for the explenation enough so what they meant by the package deal how do they interpret the package deal in rather be adapted this sectoral you know way of resolving the water problem which is extremely difficult in I mean we would also lose bargaining power and China they will also lose bargaining power if we try to adapt sectoral approach you know towards the resolution of the borders so I believe even now you know the only way out to resolve specially the border problem which is the most or the core of the core problem as far as you know India China relations are concerning though our security boundary has brought into various you you know other areas including the rivers including the maritime security you know counterterrorism so and so forth you know including multilateral cooperation but I think the border problem is the crux and the only way to resolve this problem is still the package dealing and I believe you know some of the Chinese in fact one of their former ambassadors you know he was ambassador in India so according to him in one of his Roddick articles of course is written in Chinese so he categorically explains what the package deal is and how we should be resolving it and according to this article you know which of course was written in early 19th at that time the equations were different so he says that it should be the swap for example India should keep 90,000 square kilometers of the land in eastern sector and China 35,000 square kilometer of land in the western sector he explains categorically and that is no you know giving away tongue in that package deal I think we should have you know gone back to these writing but I don't know how many people they have access to what you know ambassador Chung at that time roti so last question in the absence of any deal and you're saying India is just managing this relationship do you foresee a time when perhaps another Dhokla and I think could recur I think the possibility is always there you know because alessi is not defined in and Alice is quite grey because our perception there a perception the differ and especially if you see the kind of infrastructure development in the which is taking place on the Chinese side of the border whether it is western sector or middle sector or especially nowadays eastern sector and if you believe on these reports you know the Chinese they have even come inside Indian territory in eastern sector also in a which was not her happiness so the possibility of Dhokla meeee like you know standoffs yes it remains but I think at the same time at this point in time I think India has a sort of like advantageous position given its standing in the region and the global you know the global dynamics there the way they are unfolding for example China's equation with the United yes they are deteriorating and I don't I don't think Trump is responsible for that you know there are whole lot of issues any American president you know so he would have taken the similar steps what Trump is taking in and the kind and the way the China is you know challenging the u.s. hegemony or circled as established international order so any American president would you know go in that direction so I think we need to and cash you know these equations to our advantage and maybe if the China feels that you know it cannot take so much in from every direction and that is the time when they may you know conclude an agreement what is for the liking of you know both of acid-proof is the deep work on that note thank you very much you're most welcome you

Channel: Strategic News International

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Id: o8j5tXgjr58

Length: 21min 3sec (1263 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 01 2019