In Fashion: David Sims interview, uncut footage

Davidson's welcome to show studio thank you first question it's big question what makes a great fashion image that is a very big question I can only probably describe it in its in terms of its ingredients I think it's got to first will have attitude and it's got to speak about style probably character I think it's going to talk about whatever the person is wearing but I think for me that has to come after all those other things it's interesting to me that you you say character because I think that's one of the things I love about your your imagery is you get a sense of there being a lot of enjoyment and a lot of and communication and sometimes a sense of kind of like revelry on the shoot and you look at it and you imagine that those people were being quite spontaneous and having a lot of fun but then is that the case all your shoots file or is it sometimes you anxious to get the picture I won't describe myself but I mean I think I have my moments of being kind of you know free and having fun but quite serious really but I mean the people in front of your camera it has to depend on whoever that person is I mean if it's somebody who's not so comfortable I have there's certain kind of things that I devices that I can kind of take them through that makes it seem as though they're sort of being spontaneous like what I kind of wouldn't it's not because I want to keep secrets I think I just feel silly so they are bit no I'm sure they're not and we've talked a little bit about kind of your views on imagery but I want to go back and actually kind of talk through your life because when you were young you grew up in Yorkshire were you kind of creative when you're a kid well I did I mean my parents I was born in Sheffield my parents come from Liverpool originally and just every couple years or so we moved further south it wasn't I kind of spent any particular time in any one area I are probably most informed by the years between sort of 11 and 16 which was spent just sort of outside in home County's agricultural farming areas not very much going on at all and I suppose by comparison to a lot of the people there I kind of looked outside of those areas for it's funny those areas can kind of can tend to be a little bit insular so if you if you if you if you are if you want to be different you shows up quite quickly and that in itself kind of I suppose pushes you on does it make sense did you want to be different than yes still do I think all that I wouldn't live a pet I don't think I appear to be like that but I've always sort of thought of myself I was I've grown to accept that you know that outsider part of me is probably the thing that drives my ambition most you know I think you know in the late years I've kind of probably become more affected by the business side of what I do perhaps participate in it more but prior to that the money wasn't the D the important thing I think it was it was a need for some kind of validation that's interesting I wanted to ask you that later bit is pertinent now because I think it's simplistic but I think a lot of people would describe your work as anti fashion and I wondered as you yourself became a part of the fashion establishment and as you say working a lot more with the real kind of like the big brands and fashion if that affected your aesthetic also if that affected you and your outlook as a person yeah it does I think you know what I'd love to sit here and say I wasn't affected by it but but however there still remains that you know younger self not not only rebellious I mean I don't I never really thought of myself as anti fashion because I don't really have a grip on what fashion was I mean when when me and the group of people kind of that I collaborated with started I don't think we were even very particular we're of fashion seasons I mean of course only the real seasons but I mean say I didn't particularly understand the business at all and I for me the distinction is kind of what I talk about style and not fashion fashion is the industrial kind of realm where a style I think is everything that you know if people aren't brought up in that environment if they're not sort of there because it's been part of their upbringing I think it's because they have an interest in in styling and that inner sort of broader sense is just how people express themselves and I think I don't want to start flag-waving but I think in Britain at a certain point in time that's that's all we had it's what we had is as teenagers I can't speak for teens now I think maybe it matters less to distinguish yourself in the way you dress that the tribes don't seem to kind of matter anymore but when I was growing up that stuff that was that was really something that it was very potent and and I think that just kind of transferred into kind of you know the kind of image making I did tell me more you said then about sort of working with the more commercial clients and you said I didn't do it for the money a different need for validation validation from who well I suppose that was a reaction to not having had any kind of sort of success at school so you know I didn't assume that I was going to succeed as a photographer I what I wanted to do is make sure my pictures appealed to a certain group and that if I was getting the kind of response that I'd hopeful from within that group I'd feel good about myself what group was that Outsiders I guess well but what is an outsider I couldn't literally off the bat just just just just define what the that group of people is is something about wanting to fit and not feeling that you fit is a slightly confused experience would you say you're quite confused as a person yeah I mean I tend to overthink things and I think there's a reason for that I'm not I don't think you know I take on quite slowly to ideas because I want to understand them thoroughly once I do that once I'm sort of in possession of what I consider to be a deep understanding I'm more confident with it so there has to be a frame around that which appears to be quite confused yeah let's go back and talk more about when you're a boy because you mentioned kind of school cuz he left school when you're 17 were you ambitious in any ways did you think about things like career or were you what do you like as a young person after all I mean probably just a little really honestly I was ambitious but had no reason to feel like I would succeed I you know I have a tendency in this kind of discussion to go on about school because for me it was a profoundly unsuccessful period of my life and it was mutual I mean school hated me and I hated school so it just didn't it was never going to work out was one of those children that should have probably been sort of you know sent somewhere something that didn't involve me disrupting other people's education did you have a gun I walk I'm again I think we've just rated a gun okay good you override it that would be the real scary day seems gun crime I had a gang yeah me and my gang consisted of me and one of the person he was that very very dear friend called Andrew who he was a little bit older he started out being my brother's friend and my brother was the brains in the family so he got he actually made his way to a better school than my sis have a twin sister I probably mentioned that but he made his way to school that was some distance from home and it sort of separated him from as a little bit it's a more academic school I guess and slowly but surely or in fact not not true at all actually in this paper one evening I certainly became friends with it somebody who'd been a very close friend of here is this guy Andrew because my brother was doing homework or something and didn't want to go out so I went down the local chip shop and him being a little bit older than me I found out quite a lot about the birds and bees that night you went to near school hated you you hated school but do you not think that that time and even I guess that like feral teenagehood where you're kind of wasting time and you don't know what you're doing and you're wandering around as that influenced you and what you find beautiful and what you find intriguing yeah note I can't escape I mean even if I want to leave that sort of influence behind it still keeps coming back is a fondness for it which sometimes is it sort of embarrasses me a little bit because it's so it's so persistent and I would like to think that I can move on and find kind of you know new inspiration and and different horizons but it's not to be are you intrigued by teenagers today that you mentioned earlier that perhaps their lesson less passionate about sort of being individual so you look at young people I wouldn't say that categorically because I just don't claim to know I think that you know the the flow of information now is so is so is so fast and it's so broad that I think people don't have to adopt identity is quite in perhaps in the same way that they did in our generation but sometimes those kind of statements concerned really silly because there are probably lots of teenagers out there would disagree wholeheartedly and I'm not trying to speak for them I've lost the Train of your original question I just do you look at young people and find them fascinating yes I'm what level I couldn't exactly say I suppose what I'm looking for I think most of all I'm not particularly interested in the style of fashions that seem to kind of happen now cuz I feel like I'm so familiar with them all but music would be probably the thing that would you know want to know more about and still get stimulus for tell me because you were very into music as a kid you kind of talked about that as entities before like things like punk and new wave when did that interest come about I was always interested in music I can I can remember standing up for one or particular bands that I liked even as even as something like go I can kind of remember my childhood distinctly because we move so regularly I can think what was I doing in that house at that particular time so when I say I remember age six listening to bands and my brother and sisters are saying it's ridiculous to listen to that kind of music you know and I felt strongly about it strongly enough to stand up for it so I suppose that would suggest that you know it had an effect on me I'm going to throw it out there I guess that's because my even my education went so badly because the early years was with particularly humiliating and I didn't catch up and read and write as quickly as my peers and I think probably music fed something that might not otherwise existed well would come from quite a sort of avid group of music listeners in my family my father was particularly into music and and I think that probably had an influence he's sang a lot essentially because you talk about your family with kind of a sense of that you were close and you were inspired by them and informed by them but also this vague sense of separation that also you created your family did they encourage you oh yeah no very close encouraged me well you know I didn't really give them much reason to hold on to hope when I was at school my brother and sister seem to do quite well I think there's this kind of you know sort of deep sense of culpability that I have comes from feeling bad about not sort of succeeding at school why does that still sort of linger today just one of those codes that you can you know you like you try and shake off but it's sort of that default thing and the older you get the better you are at sort of recognizing it and avoiding perhaps some of the responses that you might have to that sensation so I want some effect by as much I'm just aware of it do you not feel smart and talented oh no very humble you get a lot of criticism in it is it's it's brutal out there if I go to Mars ah yeah I think like anybody I'm quite sensitive person especially so yeah I probably would always find it difficult tell me do you remember the first time you picked up a camera ah yeah I was told to put it down well as my father's character I think he was constantly worried that I might break something that he'd worked hard to get um it wasn't just cameras it was all manner of things but um I mean it's weird that she I was thinking about pictures before I actually made them and I was pretty because I was printing I'll give him a job as a printer when I was 17 and that was sort of I suppose was this a slow up run to start to take my own pictures I was seeing pictures before I was taking them actually I'm sure that everyone could say that but in my case it it was especially true because I was able to visit a old level course when I was a long short of it was that I got a job when I was 17 that was to be a printer and I'd asked if I could get a sort of release for part of the week to maybe go and study and I thought maybe it's the first time I could turn my hand to something academic and I was allowed to go off on a Friday morning to sit on a nano level photography course at a college and it just so happened those worthy well on that particular morning every week there was a kind of slideshow slash lecture and I think that was the sort of tipping point for me who was it images by that you were looking at they started out with the Masters and Victorians and went all the way up to you know present times which was the early 80s men I mentioned because some photographers particularly you know Tim Walker talked about it when he was interviewed for this series he talked about this kind of real passion and knowledge of the history of fashion photography and how he's informed buyer and he references it are you the same not for fashion not particularly now I'm very fond of certain fashion images but I wouldn't call myself describe myself as being particularly okay with that and that alone certainly wasn't the first kind of photography I looked at is what I was looking at more reputation I know it might sound a bit worthy to sit here and to say that especially in contrast to what Tim was saying but it took me a while to kind of find fashion photography the early kind of most of the pitch I was looking at early on were repet eyes or document photography and here are the fashion photographers that continue to influence you oh well I mean I do the obvious ones is Richard Avedon and having paneling tell me a little bit about and because you mentioned the kind of seeing images before before you kind of started taking them and I'm interested because it kind of goes back to what you're I asked you right at the start there is this this notion that your your imagery is kind of yes Ponte Gnaeus and like this idea that things just happen before you're before the camera but do you go to your shoots with an idea of the picture you want or do you just kind of see how it goes on the daily shoot see what happens I have to have some sense of structure and and probably most of what happens is that you'll create the circumstances first put it this way if I get there and all I do is recreate what I kind of think of I probably would feel slightly disappointed I think there has to be you know so therefore I guess it answers an earlier question there is it there is always that I suppose the plan being is that you create enough sort of backup in into pre visualizing so if you've got no ideas that presented that on you know on the hoof then you can fall back to those ideas but I want to you know what really for me is I mean somebody said I'm a typical Capricorn because I need to have solid ground in it before I can move forward nothing that's fair enough so that's just planning it's just a way of creating to the safe platform from which to spring from and then I would go looking for something that hadn't actually occurred and I like it when ideas occur as you're going as well what happens in my case especially if it oh this sounds a bit corny as well but I will go looking for the song for that picture and there's lots of music that I will always choose to listen to in order to warm up but there's sometimes a song that you pressed unexpected to hear and that's something uh it will invent a character for me and I'll lock in to that then I used to have a friend that DJed for me who you may actually been yeah he optically wide-ranging and good knowledge of music so and lots a good taste as well so he used to come and play on set and he'd sort of watch what was happening with the picture and pick a song to go with it and I'd sort of stand there for you know Parveen oh no not that one not that one can't kill it and we've quite bossy until we found the right tune tell me some of the songs that I would I would have heard over Davidson sheets in the past oh god I mean again it really depends on the mood I mean at some point I always have to listen to little dole by by the Stooges that one does it for me and always crashing in the same car by buries it but there's so many and tell me gee I don't know if you feel like you have a best shot that's a massive cliche to ask a photographer but is there a song that's been playing where you've got a shot that you love particularly where maybe you hate the song but now you love it you know I used to listen to Oh everybody knows this is nowhere by Neil Young and I'm sure there's a few short side would say significant to me on account of listening to that all having it at play while we were working in let's go back a bit until I want to continue talking about your trajectory because I'm interested in need some of the assisting jobs that you had because your sister kind of all sorts of people your sister went for an assistant over Nick Nye and then he had mister for a card stick and I didn't get the casting order all of the Cystic ultimate rejection talked about I'll pull it off on that I'll telling me mister chewing my not removable but tell me lots of the people you did assess because some of them there are static is very different to users would like Robert Edmund Norman what's ambiguous you assisted Nigel Schaffer in on some jobs yeah briefly yeah yeah so tell me about all of those different sort of roles well is that my probably my my longest and earliest consisting job was with Robert who was really hard working and a lot more technical than perhaps people might imagine he's also very kind of ambitious and commercially ambitious photographer really didn't stop working I think because he was driven by the need to succeed but in the process I he did pictures which I mean I still have a sort of you know there's part of me that still loves to do what could be considered a very commercial image but I do that in perhaps as some what why do I like why do I go towards that sort of image sometimes it's just because it's perhaps not what is expected of me and now I also think they're very difficult to execute so he he kind of I suppose created a very steep learning curve for me as a taskmaster tough guy to work for for for for a young 19 year old from the countryside did you have a good work ethic I learnt it on the job I mean I wouldn't describe myself as being particularly hard-working and when you're working for something like that has to go up a notch really it's a fury fast and furious process no one was great because whatever it took he sort of had it I mean whether he inherited it from his father I can say I guess he must have he's well growing up in a household where they talk about photography and look at art and Norman I used to tear open his Polaroids it's from those lamp pack Polaroids sometimes I just used to look at the Polaroids of done ting how the hell did you see that that's just astonishing he was also really good fun to work with his and it slightly uh it would he was complexed he was slightly odd character really but supremely talented very funny and really good company tell me about working because I'm interesting that paired with you you said briefly you worked with with Nigel because I feel like he's all my Nigel Schaffer and he's almost his aesthetic is it's almost part of that set of you where I think you established a kind of a new voice not an image okay I can yes I mean Nigel you know he sort of what is he he's the most stubborn and resistant of people I think and I'm not sure if he makes a virtue of it or it's just the thing he holds on to but I think that's sort of profound in his pictures he hasn't ever seemingly steadies work towards what might be considered to be to make it more desirable more purchasable you know he's work reflects him actually and he is it quietly sort of what's the word I guess he's a difficult character and I liked that aspect of his work a lot I was drawn to it and he's good fun to work to be within and we went on some good adventures together but that was very much towards the end of my time as an assistant and I was kind of already by then ready to kind of start doing my own thing and but I really enjoyed working for am I really respected what he's stood for and more and I think when I suppose work has an impact it's because it's you know chimes very strongly of it is its it you know it speaks about somebody's can own personality and where they stand the worst kind of work is where there's just a constant to the flim-flam you don't really know where you stand with someone so annoyed like Nigel isn't easy to get to talk to about his work but in in that I suppose it you know within that experience of him you kind of get closer to where his was work stems from and I'm interested in sort of you can you mentioned before this connotes that you perhaps didn't have the there's knowledge of fashion it wasn't something you can see me but by this point you must have been kind of yeah more aware of the industry more aware of the image makers purely because you were assisting and what titles were you kind of engaging with oh the face I mean I was really I was super impressed by Ray Petri and that's what kind of drove me to want to work for Norman initially because they'd had such a good collaboration over the years but Ray was sort of like somebody who managed I think through his work to make London feel like it was a special place we could have always been something of a backwater I suppose without idea in the face I think you know within you know this town I guess it fashion wouldn't have occurred quite the way it did and has done since I mean we just have a different take on it you know so I think that's probably been talked about plenty of times I'm not going to harp on about it too much but I think ray for me in particular just because of my age see to be you know the most important sort of figure in all of that although there were lots of great and brilliant talented people around as well it's interesting I know you said he did on a fashion about that debt that idea of London because for you you've mentioned a few times me that you grew up in the countryside you talked about yourself as kind of a country boy did London symbolize something to you yes it was only 45 miles away but it seemed like a you know it could have easily been another continent and the face arrived in the local news agents and I remember being it caught my eye straightaway Jerry Dammers was on the cover maybe somebody here probably knows that but um whether ray was in it at that time I don't think he was but it was this idea of fact I can even keep saying fashion but it wasn't something a word that I used they were just kind of like people wanting to dress differently and you know within music there's lots of examples of that so it seemed to me just to be a style thing it was directional it wasn't business amazing yeah it does did you have ideas of beauty at that point did you know what kind of people women or men you thought were beautiful and you thought were intriguing because I think that's one of the things that yes again through music you know lots of lots of things that you'd find yourself strangely attracted to but I think you know a practicer was particularly lucky growing up in a time where that it felt like a lot of the styles that sort of musicians were kind of adopting was was was really there aren't generated by their own imagination it didn't come with any real sophistication attached to it so you could it although it did appear to be extremely sophisticated you you could still kind of venture with it as a kid and were you dressing then like you dress now uh-huh we tried I mean we've you know living more Awards I mean we used to it's funny I was talking somebody about this is a day how vintage describes you know so many things for people now but there was a store in the local town I lived and it wasn't called vintage anything it wasn't even called flea market or you'd either go to the charity shop but there's a shop it was called revisited and and I'm gonna ask my mum what did that mean and she meant basically dead people's clothes so that's what we were wearing yeah Bowie was a huge influence he's trying to dress like Kim as as much as you could afford to dress like him and tell me about you mention when you're assisting you were getting to that point where you wanted to start sort of just doing it on your own what were your pictures like at that point I think you know a nice assisting I had so little time to make my own images I had been particularly impressed when I was 16 from what I'd seen of the America of talk of photographers and in particular Larry Clark and I think you know I'm kind of embarrassed saying that now because I didn't either so little of what he was photographing I you know was I didn't particularly understand it wasn't familiar to me I wasn't involved in a scene like that but I respected him first of all you know for being able to take those don't make those kind of images and print them and all of the kind of work with this sort of craft skills that people don't really talk about when he's discussed as a photographer which now he sort of issued a little bit really there was a there was a kind of a desire in me to kind of make something raw and I suppose you know what people would say now is a sort of rock-and-roll spirit I guess I mean you know my my one single abiding desire at that point was to photograph Iggy Pop so I guess I was just kind of imitate aping what I thought ever he might be up to at that point it's interesting because you've said in interviews before that kind of the imagery that you guys when I say you guys I do mean that set of image makers and I think you uttered in a new aesthetic people like yourself people like yeh again occurring day and you said that that kind of aesthetic and that grungy aesthetic that it was circumstantial tell me what you mean by that well it's only circumstantial because I think that it wasn't like you could go to a designer and that you weren't documenting anything that was sort of already made or written up it was just kind of being made on the hoof I mean I was just I was just kind of copying the things that I thought were great and turn me on that's all hmm it's interesting you say you were copying the things that you thought were great very few people are comfortable admitting that I think but all young creators do that when you're writer you copy the writers easing together how you get there otherwise that but I always think the magic comes from kind of thinking that you're copying something to I don't think you imagine it's pastiche what you're doing is celebrating something that you relate to in someone else's work and inevitably because it's you and it's not them you know you kind of elude or pre-digital let's say you could never copy something to the intr degree that things seem to be able to sort of be pastiche now and it was the mistakes it was the things that you didn't get right that almost kind of make it significant now I'm from you know the naivety is what kind of informed the result more than no how was there a point where you stop copying ah no because I think sometimes you sort of forced to copy things which is a slightly depressing answer to that but however what I'm trying to avoid is comparisons with my peers and my own generation I also feel like that sort of propriety the sense of it has been lost in this sort of rush for content and and it seems like whoever does something now it's the person that did it last kind of owns the you know the signature title on on on work which I find really shocking they didn't seem to be much that can be done about and so therefore I'm trying to do at my best or at my freest is to kind of outrun the notions of things that people might have for what's right and what's the zeitgeist I'm not I don't care about those things really I kind of want to always sort of turn it on its head but how do you combine that with having you know a style and having something that people know you for and and respect you for you know it's funny I think you kind of have to let go and you can't and I'm sure the photographers will feel the same if if what informs a picture was a naivety and and you know a connection with things that's when you're you're young you're you're wide open you're in your influence you know daily and the older you get the more familiar you are with the kind of your surroundings and that kind of landscape the operating so you're not going to be as stunned and as blown away by things so therefore when someone says we'll do 90 speaker you what I'm not that person anymore it would I think it would just do a disservice to the early work to to copy it but it happens a lot and I know why people do it because they're fond of those images they want it to be you know that we you know remade but it becomes you know that becomes pastiche in yourself is a particularly painful thing to do I think yeah so that you know whether that's just a voice in my head or a specter of fear I don't know but I want to do things that surprised me even though that I'm what you would do is perhaps discover a new element a new something that you can work on and you try to kind of take that to its farthest extent and then maybe you're finished with it it's interesting from what you say it makes me wonder do you sometimes think it's easier to produce good work when you're younger not necessarily younger in terms of age just younger in terms of less informed yes because that insouciant means that you're free you're not perhaps so where some of the fifth you know sort of I guess yeah definitely I mean the thing is I also wish that when I was younger I wasn't so uptight and I'd done more than I did I would look back on that time think I should have just gotten on with doing more that would always be my encouragement to someone in their 20s or even younger who sort of wanting to be creative is just you just got to just go with your instincts I tended to critique it that like so I mean from it was Anna Coburn that helped me out of that habit really a little bit because I used to draw everything well I well I didn't I didn't imagine that I was I thought I was going to be a cartoonist an item as I used to draw a lot and add these little a5 ring bound sketch pads Daler that yellow and red things I don't have anymore I'm still really fond of them actually but what happened was ended up with a draw for it's a filing cabinet full of these sketches which were all intended to be ideas for photographs but never got done and then it was it was Anna Coburn that came around one day said you got you have to stop drawing you've got to just do pictures and you know it's an arguable really that's all I she was right so I had to do I'm interesting you know because you'll see you are a very collaborative person I find you interesting with you and and people who've worked with you've had these kind of very intense and almost quite wayward relationships is where I'm never win oh here they are a bit way tell me one in particular tell me about meeting Dido that must have had a bigger a bigger honey he was a hairdresser for quite a long time before the sort of you know fashion history would have you believe his grace died the nineties but he didn't he was he was kind of quite a busy hairdresser through the eighties as well I know I'll take him I am outing him yet rightly so because I think he couldn't have got to where he did yeah without there's a sort of necessary skill set that doesn't come because you stood watching somebody in a salon - for a couple of years you know he was he was still slapping himself around London and you know working for all manner of publications until I met him he was working with Robert and I think his career sort of took on a you know accelerated working alongside him and when I first started taking pictures for the face we didn't have any hair and makeup at all it I wouldn't it would be great to say I was adamantly against having I mean I think I wanted my pictures to happen and to occur in an amongst a very small the smaller the number of people around it the better but eventually Guido came on board and I remember sort of having conversation with him that went something like well let's just see where this takes us and you know I think his hand evolved again when he started to work with with Lee McQueen his work with me was very particular but I think Lee opened her and it happened at a particular point in his life as well and I think that he started to do other things that he probably would never have done if he'd only ever worked alongside himself hmm tell me how what was your working relationship like because it must have been a lot more than just kind of him doing the kind of the Beatty on the shoot and you taking the pictures what we referencing together were you kind of just going out together what was it there was more conversation you know the idea whole idea of like swipe art which is what they kind of I heard that first that term first used in in the States well in New York in particular and thinking that's weird you mean they put a picture in front of you go this is the reference that's what we do it's seemingly part and parcel the nature of the way images are arrived at now and I'm no less guilty of it than anybody else in some cases but for me it's only a start point the thing that you want to do is engage in something you feel you possess and you own if you if you're stuck looking a picture thing and I've got to recreate that it's never going to be a good marriage at all I mean even to the extent used to get this kind of thing we call it sort of Polaroid fever where you do a great Polaroid and then you'd spend a good hour of your life trying to recreate what you've seen in puddleby and I think really what you need from your collaborators and what I had in particularly with Guido is a huge amount of support if I was feeling a little tentative about saying you kind of give you that nudge and you can do it and you know I really appreciate it having that around I mean and then you just have those conversations that may go on sometimes you know after a shoot and between shoots and they just for me they sort of cook up a conviction a sense of belief in an idea in who you want to be I think the wid thing about creativity for me is the way I kind of arrive at sort of engaging with an idea is that it sometimes lives surrounded by the things you don't want to be it's really odd perhaps contradiction or contrary thing to say rather is that you know I don't want to be that but it helps you to identify with the thing that you do want what were you worried about being and there's the same things you're worried about being today not believed I suppose back then do you feel that less though ah you know there wasn't so much irony in what I did back then and I know that's sort of like a little you know the idea of something being ironic isn't exactly a sort of you know I had something I alone possess but I like hiding meaning inside something that's on the surface seems to be to be lightweight and kind of pointless hmm it's it's code isn't it because you are you only wanted kind of like you don't people to come up till they slap you on the back I get it you're great I mean that could be as sort of undermining as how home somebody could turn around go they hate your work sometimes I had somebody hating your work is an affirmation that you're doing things the right way tell me I'm interested you say you know you were worried about not being believed do you look at your fashion imagery you think it is authentic some of it yeah I mean there's always got to be a corner of the frame that kind of you own I mean even when I'm doing a picture for the most commercial of entities you know you gotta you gotta kind of look at it girl up well that bits me that little narky kid who looks like a beautiful woman jumping around in a dress that that's an interesting notion you kind of touch that there's something always I really want to ask which is you know that that aesthetic and perhaps you know you said you wouldn't call it anti fashion or grunge or whatever it was but that aesthetically you were pushing maybe like the naki kids as a good way of putting it like it did become commodified not just from you but from again I don't want to pigeonhole you but that that set of you Glenn much further in day it did become part of the way fashions or beauty became fashionable and then it became glamorous and and it stopped being teenagers and it became models and they were the ones wearing their makeup and kind of posing was that firstly was that an odd process to see happen and how did you handle that you know I never found it flattering when someone pic pics on one of my pictures to copy at all that's the short answer to that and you know like I said I was trying to create a sort of sense of belief in authenticity my work which you know it sounds bit preposterous to sit here and push that but I can't pursue something without a real sense of conviction so I have to what sometimes I have to manifest that sometimes it's there freely so to see it kind of like taken on as a as I guys thing or you know that's the blueprint that's the answer is is sort of you know it messes me up tell me more about that what being messed up yes I mean I attend quite know what else I can tell you that you know you I am very possibly very possessive I don't want to see things that I feel in my signature and my own ideas you know shopped around it cheapens it for me it takes the virtual way hmm must be strange now because that aesthetic you said 90s before and that's it like that 90s aesthetic it's it's that so fashionable now and it's having this odd revival amongst young image makers and young designers and is that quite odd ah it's odd if it's presented me as something new yeah I can understand why there's a generation that wants to sort of strip back the layers and get back to some kind of war harmony some sense of sincerity in their work I wouldn't say it's of a great interest to me at all because you know I feel like a read through it and I think that I think there are some real major protagonists of that style which do it very well hey for example well Nigel yeah I'm there for it's like saying were you gonna listen to Brian Adams or Bob Dylan why would I bother with the other you know people have their choices that's they can listen and look - they can listen to and what look at whatever they like I I just feel there has to be a distinction between what's a good thing and not so good and they're not so good is never good but do you worry though because you kind of touched it before you know the industry works at an incredible pace and I think there is this then complete obsession with the new and the yarn and do worry sometimes that actually people don't even remember who did it first and there is that I think I think they sort of lost in like I said earlier on it's sort of the last person to do something is the first yeah I don't think I'm the only one to feel like that about imagery but I think that's particularly you're only going to ever hear that from somebody probably my age I don't think it really matters so much I don't think it's a preoccupation the way it was look in the 90s if you kind of found copying some of these work if there was a similarity it was it was you went into a crisis and it was the kind of cruelest thing you could say to somebody on set or in it in that environment that looks a bit like so and so it really undermine that idea very quickly was I think there's almost that's that is the virtue now oh god it looks like that it's the catch you know there's a want that feel and they want that hook so I think that is what drives it a little bit and tell me it I'm interested just in this in this notion of a kind of the pace of the industry and is it hard to collaborate in the way that you enjoy doing now in the way that the industry works because it is much more yes much quicker is it hard to have those meaningful relationships that you talks about relying on ah I could be that it's just me my answer to that would be yes because people have less time we'd have weeks and weeks between one project and another and we would kind of meander in those weeks and describe things that we will will press fill inspirational and and I don't have so much at that time right now has there become as they're overcome a choice in your career where because we kind of jumped quite look forward I imagine you starting on your own and did there come a point where you realize that your work was very influential and that people and you kind of thought I'm going to be part of fashion fashion and the establishment in the industry was there every moment we thought actually hanging or liking I think probably when I went to New York as a photographer for the first time and I started to work for some of those American publications and it you know you were very aware of what was being talked about not just about me but other other people from London and I didn't last very long in that environment cuz I was so like I said it was quite narky really and I made myself a bit unpopular in one or another art department and so Mallis got sort of chased out of town really and came back to London and I was lucky at that point I was asked to go and talk with them Frances Hodgson about maybe doing an exhibition at swimmer's that was had always been a bookshop but they would start out in the gallery and I come a bit suspicious really I thought what is he just want to kind of tap into this color you know this name thing so I took a set of prints I mean it sounded I I thought it's been clever at the time but now I'm hearing myself say in such a public space and sounds a little II stupid idea but I kind of put prints in I thought he might opt for because they were more known and more commercial and and to distributed a few lesser-known images in and amongst them and hoping that you know he would kind of fall flat on his face and go I want these in there and I'd know that I didn't have to go through the process of doing the next which is quite frightening idea for me so I was kind of after me hoped that it wouldn't work but he turned out to be such a smart man and has a such a fantastic insight I think to photography that he immediately picked out the pictures that I thought he would have missed and we agreed to do an exhibition but then suddenly looked thinking and looking at about an exhibition look at my pictures on the wall I suddenly I would sort of felt absolute sort of like you know I thought they were kind of abhorrently I thought the useless so I decided then to switch styles and started to run use daylight in pictures over lighting things and that's that was my my reaction to seeing things that were done all in natural light I suddenly wanted to go the complete opposite end of the scale and use as many lights as I could fit into one sitting and then they then came the blue background which was a chore it was a choice again because I wanted to have something that couldn't possibly be copied because it was so ugly it was so not good taste that I thought it would escape you know this trend thing it's really interesting to me cuz it feels like and correct me if I'm wrong it was like most of your career decisions and maybe aesthetic turning points have been driven through insecurity rather than conscious decision you deaf I think we'd have to sort of probably able to sit down and Alice out the stage but it feels like you it comes from a kind of not wanting to be like something or want to prove something I know yeah so that's the that's the confusing bit as me wanting to be liked but doing nothing about it you know doing everything I think I guess what that is and I do this is really not the time or the place but I'm going to go ahead anyway I suppose what I'm doing is testing whether people actually really want to see this picture so what I do is is is kind of cover it all with these rabbits that what might be choice so that sort of bad components because at the heart of it is something that matters to me and I'm close to and that is about as good a description as I'll ever give it I think hmm and tell me do you it's a coil question sir I feel like there's a lot of emotion in your work but I don't feel particularly like there's that much darkness and I think that something that cook that's very different to some of the people who kind of started out with people like Korean perhaps or people that maybe you're some of your peers or referencing people like now in Goulding is not the same I mean darkness doesn't interest me per se look a lot of my heroes have indulged in their own dark misses and their behaviors and I I'm not without sin I and I I'm not leading to anything sort of you know terrible but I mean I think we're all susceptible and vulnerable to you know to things that might make us appear to be dark the real dark behavior is the abusive behavior so no I'm not interested in dark if people find that they have passion in looking at sort of you know morbidity or I don't know high romance or whatever it is but for me there has to be freedom first I don't really see a virtue in something that's dark on its own it's kind of to me that's just like banging drums it doesn't mean anything hmm do you think that there but there always has to be some form of kind of emotion something I think there has to be a hope for the work that her work has to arrive at something it's got to communicate and it's up to the you know it's up to to the artist to decide what they're communicating mm-hmm if it doesn't reach you it doesn't reach you I think there's like a lot of there's a kind of obligation now to go with our and sort of accept it because you know arts the Great Communicator and I think by and large that's absolutely the truth but I thinks this distinction between whether it works or whether it's it's good is is it's become sort of growingly difficult we're also informed by the sort of the critics before now there's so much art sometimes kind of just do all you can lose the good in amongst the bad quite quickly I think but if you can stand there and think that it's kind of meant something for you I guess then I can't believe I'm bordering and talking about are yeah it's good do you felt I meant it do you think people miss the point in your pictures quite a lot I've never really bother to sit and think about that too much it's it's it's whether I think it's there and then I assume that instinctively or naturally someone who's that in tune with whatever that that thing that little ingredient is that they'll pick it up well I really like it when somebody says that there's a romance in my pictures because I think then I thought they're seeing it you know this is it's not it's not the first thing it's not written all over the picture I find romantic pictures whole-cell romantic pictures really a bit iffy mmm this is much more simplistic question but I think some of your most loved imagery is of men rather than women do you prefer cheating women would you prefer shuting men you know the thing is it's the thing about men is there's so many kind of taboos that kind of like stand in front of describing men that it's just easy prey you know women are presented in a bigger variety it's more diverse you know they can play with the sexuality or the sort of you know but for men it's still slightly restricted even though that sounds silly to be sitting here and saying that now I think there's something about the private world of men which is quite compelling in it and then perhaps that's what I'm sort of trying to tap into with those words and if there is loved imagery that I've done of girls it's because they look more like boys in any case it doesn't really bother too much with the standard sort of the principles of what femininity are it's interesting just talking more about that notion do you feel because I think you know doesn't so much turd about the way fashion imagery and the fashion community depicts beauty and depicts standards of beauty do you feel like a responsibility as a fashion image maker sometimes but I wouldn't I would say that they're particularly important to me what's your responsibility would I need to take I guess maybe do you worry about the way it's not so much the boring thing are we talking about anorexia right yeah in a way but we're bigger than that do you think about the effect that kind of like because fashion which it's so prolific it's everywhere and fashion so popular now and do you feel that the image that you create can will be seen as something incredibly aspirational to someone very young oh you know what I think there's this there's a little bit of a danger in thinking so much about it and the way that that question sort of describes as it might it might stop me dead in my tracks and whether I'm engaging in it enough is is probably for other people to decide but I die by the honest and simple answer that is no I don't really think about those things necessarily I think about who's in front of me and am I responsible for them yeah definitely if someone wants to collaborate and they're willing to do things and it's fine you know there's a kind of sign off on on it should be mutual I don't want to feel like somebody's sort of intimidated or suffering in front of my camera and tell me do you have things in your in your career that you still want to achieve there where do you see the direction of your image Mason going where do you see yourself going because you have had time times off in your career I'm interested in how do you always kind of bring yourself back and keep keep going coming back was was it something of a mammoth effort really I think just taking time out like that sort of you know I guess the Machine that sort of exists in order to kind of keep you going and being creative and asking things from yourself sort of more let's come to a grinding halt so it's a kind of getting back was quite tricky but I also think probably mostly that was because I came back in an analogue you know period and came back in it straight to the digital one so that I think I was playing catch-up I felt completely useless it's the sort of restart of that return I what drives me is you know and it's simple and if not very cliche is to say that I think probably the best thing I'm going to do is the next thing I think that it's funny you know you're kind of all those sort of peaks and troughs all the turns in the river happen careful manner of different reasons so I just kind of quite happy to keep going with that sounds terribly whimsical it's not I mean there is a determination in there as well have you come to like fashion cuz you talk about you don't come to understand it a lot more I think I like it less why because I think it's in a phase now where I think that people imagine that product is king and I think there has to be a respect for product but I think ideas and style are the most important I think then people don't relate to product you can't I mean you can have 100 handbags if you don't have a sense of what what a thing is it it won't necessarily be any you know it's that it's that is the that sort of capricious nature that some designers rely on for video I was this yesterday but now I not but I think probably what made me have any sense of belonging within within this industry at all was that it can talk about attitudes and it can talk about spirit and I think we're not really in that time now because everything has to be successful I remember a singer once saying to me you're fine being if tougher because like if you do one set of pictures for ID every six month you you keep your credibility I have to sell loads of records and if I don't I don't have any credibility doesn't know how good the work is and I remember not really getting in at I don't know your works great what you're worried about is a bit simplistic about it but I kind of think that things have to be successful now and I for one find that particularly sort of like depressing yeah I wanted to ask you that if any you know it's like you're going to turn up to a meeting so it's a how many interest to Graham followers over got yeah you've got to look at what's in front of you and I think there's a great importance given to all of the above which is deeply ironic given I'm talking on the internet right now isn't it I mean I I don't know what to say further than that but it confounds me you feel that when you shoot a campaign do you feel that but before it was the brand that felt the responsibility that that campaign would sell the bag or the dress or the shoe do you know I think that what has happened is it's people think that there's a formula for everything and there just isn't a formula for everything what there is is their sense and there's ideas and there's desire there are some deeply human qualities in work was what people want if they're investing in are creating some producing something they want their return which to me kind of yes I get it if you all want that yacht in the harbor that you know you can operate from through the summer season fine but I don't think that's what's spoken traditionally to women I don't think it's spoken to anybody you know it's that kind of manufacture element that I think is in danger of undermining you know what little interest there is left for design really and so when a designer comes along who has convictions and wants to talk about spirit and wants to test people's appreciation of things all those things that may not relate to the mass-market I'm glad because at least it gives I think a little bit of breath of life back to you what for me are the truth the true values that give I think you've liked this the industry start out is there's a sort of you know a highly industrialized process it was something else and I think we may be looking at some of this sort of you know it's like we're in an occupied we've been occupied at the moment I think you seem very uh prehensile about the future of fashion no no I don't I'm not apprentice' because I think like from what I can tell people still want to be creative it's just that whether their voice will be heard through the usual channels is is to be seen you know and I guess that's why there's a host of people who are wanting to make their own magazines and and and that's can be as you know a launch for their ideas in their work it just it just I can get why me I can't I can't give you this a you know the punchline to all of this but you feel like your voice is being heard well I presume maybe somebody's out there listening right now who knows but sometimes I'm time David thank you very much pleasure

Channel: SHOWstudio

Views: 36,610

Rating: 4.9061031 out of 5

Keywords: Footage (Media Genre), Fashion (Industry), David, Sims, Interview, Voice, Exclusive, lou stoppard, Interviews, Series

Id: QTX-PM3C6mA

Length: 63min 29sec (3809 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 27 2015