Iain Dale speaks to former EU Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier | LBC

hello and welcome well today we're going to talk to the author of a new book it is called my secret brexit diary no it's not nigel farage it is michelle barnier who i think in the four years after the brexit vote took place was probably one of the most famous people in the whole of europe and he's now running to be president of france and i'm delighted michelle to welcome you to lbc thank you thank you good good to be here well let's take you back to the morning of june the 24th 2016. now at that point you didn't know what the next few years would have in store for you but what was your reaction no nor me no because i i didn't think the result was going to go the way it did but what was your reaction when you heard that britain had voted to leave the eu i was very surprised because the day before the night it was not the feeling even in the brexit camp if i true and i was disappointed because uh i i thought it was a not a good decision for both of us the uk and europe i always thought that the brexit because it is a divorce is a loser's game so i was surprised and disappointed but it was a sovereign decision of the uk people 52 percent british citizens and we i immediately saw that we will have to to respect this vote because it was um it was and it remained a silver and vote for the british people do you feel that you understand exactly why britain did vote in that way there is two points in your question the first one is to understand the reasons yes i tried to understand i spent a lot of time to to listen to meet everybody in the uk and and to to listen to to look at the reason because i think as i wrote in my book in particular in the first chapter a warning yeah for everybody too late for you today for the uk but not too late for us the second point is is less easy to understand and i still not understand the the added value the brexit for the uku and for us because early on in the book you you talk about the fact that there are lots of people who are just dissatisfied with a lot of things in britain not not particularly necessarily the european union but they were angry about austerity the the policies of the david cameron government so they took took the opportunity to kick the government which i guess can happen anywhere but if it can happen in britain it could happen elsewhere do you think that it could happen in another european country yes i think so exactly for the reason you mentioned the social what i what i call it what i saw the social anger the lack of public services no future no job and control in migration so we can find exactly the same popular feelings social in many many regions of europe the reason why i i wrote this chapter the warning and to just to say as a politician responsible politician that we have to draw the lessons and and the answers as you correctly said are not all to be found in brussels brussels made many mistakes in the 30 40 last years we can come back on this point there's bronchus in brussels objectively you can find bureaucracy also in london probably or in paris many reasons have to be found in brussels many answers but not all the answers the other answers are to be founded in each national capital and and sometimes at the regional level for the transportation for the social care do you think that one of the main driving factors in the brexit vote was immigration or because the the opinion polls the surveys that have been done subsequently say that sovereignty was the main issue driving the brexit vote immigration was number two or number three but a lot of people in this country who are devout remainers they think it's largely driven by immigration what's your view no i don't think so i think the uncontrolled migration is a key problem for france for instance coming from abroad from the third country i think that the the political reason the rhetoric reason but sovereignty of uk was probably the first reason um it is my point of different because i think that we need to keep and to protect our national servant everywhere not only in the uk and what we have accepted to do in our interest in europe is to build what i can call this solidarity between our national sovereignty a solidarity between our national sovereignty and it would be the line of my mandate if i am elected french president national sovereignty what you call global britain unemployment no future and and and migration with this um unfair confusion from farage and some others between the the freedom of movement in europe and the migration coming from abroad now do you think that if britain had followed other european countries in 2003 2004 and restricted immigration from eastern europe rather than i think britain was only one of two or three countries in the eu too ireland and uk well if if the blair government had handled that differently do you think we probably would never have had a referendum it's difficult to rewrite the story but it's clear and true that at that time 2004 at the time of taxation of poland and 10 countries from the eastern part of europe uk had at that time the possibility to to stop or not to accept the the the freedom of movement and at that time your country asked for the polish people and some other from romania or bulgaria to come a little two years after for brilliant romania but they asked him to come to work and for the progress and for the economy of the uk so it was not fair in my view to to critique and and to put all the responsibilities on this freedom of movement which was a choice a sovereign choice for the uk yeah absolutely but i suppose my point is that if that hadn't happened in that way would nigel farage have ever got the oxygen that he then got to develop ukip and because i don't think at that point i don't think if there'd been a referendum on eu membership i don't think that the leave side would have been anywhere near winning once again is it difficult to rewrite but what what was not correct and in my view very unfair from farage was to confuse deliberately uh this freedom of movement from polish people coming to uk inside the eu and and the the migration from syrians and the refugees from from the middle east so i think it was not fair how did you get on with nigel farage i told him i was going to interview you and he said oh he's a great guy i absolutely love talking to him which slightly surprised me because in the european parliament he was always quite insulting to you no but duration was always correct because i'm generally speaking i respect the others and and all of this negotiation i it was not a tactic it was my my personal feeling i have for the uk uh very old and very solid respect and admiration for for your culture for many statements including and first of all the western churchill and and uh for for the diplomatic capacity and i have a great respect so i i always respected huge and definitive difference with him um i never i never forget what the answer to me when i met him in my office at his request and i recall this this story in my book uh my my question at the end of our meeting was mr father okay you wanted the backseat you can't painful but it's okay now we are going to deliver the brexit in a few months from now how do you see the relation between uk and eu after the brexit and his answer was very very very immediate and spontaneous mr barney after brexit you will no longer exist so mr farage and some other want to destroy the eu no way no way because he always maintained that that wasn't his objective he he what he used to say was his answer well i know i mean that's very interesting because he would say publicly that he always wished the eu well and it wasn't his uh wish to see the eu collapse after the brexit eu will no longer exist it's not true it's not the reality and it will not be the reality so so but in the same time once again i don't need mr frash to say that we have to draw the lessons that to change what need to be changed in brussels to to to avoid new new brexit elsewhere do you think part of the problem that the eu has always had is it it's always had this aim of ever closer union um and the message that i think that sent to the uk was well in the end there will be a united states of europe and that was even people who were supporters of the eu just found that quite difficult quite a difficult concept in the you side between 28 member state 27 now there's so many differences sensitivity sensitivity parties and so on so many opinions if you you ask me because i'm in front of you today i am a goodist since i am 15 i'm not a federalist i never be and i am european because i think it is a national interest of my country to be european but would you describe yourself as french first and european second or the other way in europe in the frontline of my twitter account but yet in europe for a long time patriotism europe and i think that to be patriotic and to to be european goes together so my vision of europe is is not a federal state it's not the united states of europe it is the the reality is more complex and this rarity is unique never in the past except the time of the empire nowhere in the world we have such a in france we have a world which is very very expressive and very correct for to say what i see about europe is mutualization in fact pouring pulling is not merging pulling and not merging so the the the political project of europe is complex because we need to respect the national identities of each member states it's its culture its language 24 languages it's traditions it's different and every country is very concerned by its own national identity and asked to be respected so this is why it is so complex when i'm when i was in the council of minister of the european council i i took part of the open council for the last four years the council of head of states where i was invited you have 24 cabin with translator two translator by cabin it's very very expensive it is very complex it could be much more simple you can put out the cabinet translator and we we we speak everybody speaks the same language english english thanks to still still yes it's not we we we are working for united europe not a unified europe uniform that's quite uniformity uniformity is there a difference though because i think to people in this country they would see that as almost i know it is a different word but it's almost the same word where unity means a united states and no no unity is not the same thing that uniformity we need to respect that we want and i want if i'm the french president that you respect the national identities and the national differences but but in the same time we need to pull uh our certain part of our policies to contribute what i call the solidarity between our national sovereignty just to to be respected in the world because the reality there is the reason why i think that it's much better to be together than alone and i respect the choice of uk to be alone okay but in the current world if you look at all the challenges we have to face in the next decades or the next few years i think we cannot fight we cannot be respected we cannot defend our interests and our value alone in the current world if you look at the climate change uh the terrorism the the poverty in africa and the fl and the the flows of migrants if you look at the the financial stability the risk of a new financial crisis be careful for many of these challenges it's it's better and it's more efficient to be together what is my my definitive feeling let's go back to uh the book and you when you were appointed as the friend as a brexit negotiator by jean-claude juncker european against it being french but you're president okay but you had an interesting past with jean-claude juncker didn't you and i think you were quite surprised that he asked you to be the negotiator yes we were opposed in uh it is your point in a internal election for the presidency of the commission in 2014 but it was a loyal competition and he won i lost that time it was fair and a few years after he asked me to to be his special advisor for defense which is unusual for the president commission to have a special adviser for defense and he has the great merit to engage to push uh some new steps for not a european army i'm not in favor upon a corporation and we we have created a structured cooperation for defense in between the european country and also for the first time uh investment fountain defense so it was a a proof of our trust and the friendship that he asked me to be on this side for the the defense matters and a few weeks after the brexit referendum he asked me in varso we were a meeting with i was with him for a meeting with obama and he asked me just before this meeting to if i agreed to be the negotiator for you and what was your immediate reaction was it excitement or did you foresee the difficulties that and or did you foresee that it would take so long the boss the boss i don't think i didn't think at that time it was it would be so long because we cannot imagine that mrs may will face so many difficult majority to approve the deal she agreed three times but but it was true for sure a very difficult and complex negotiation at the base and it was also historical so i did not hesitate to say yes i'd love to hear your assessment of some of the personalities involved in these negotiations from the british side because obviously you had you were a constant you were there the whole time but you faced a series of different british negotiators for one player was that did that give you a bit of an advantage in the negotiations the fact that they're worth different people representing britain and and at the beginning you were dealing with david davis but then ollie robbins seemed to be the main protagonist um and he was obviously a civil servant but seemed to be theresa may's representative rather than david davis the choice of the uk it was the choice of the uk was to have a two level of negotiator the political level and the technical level at the cabinet of the president the prime minister or europeans who is to be frank a very very impressed and very competent person general generally speaking i can tell you that the real respect and admiration i have i had and i have now for a long time uh towards the the the ic87s of the uk which are professional and competent and i'd be with david davis we i knew david davies for a long time before because we we were two days together two european ministers in 1997 and we negotiate together for a long time the treaty of amsterdam so we had a good oration even if we have no we don't agree on the european vision uh but i do even if sometimes i was disappointed by some speeches or buy we had good relationship with the negotiator over uk but my ma i don't know if it is an advantage it was a reality i stay i remain along the time for the day one to the last day and the challenge negotiator over here that famous picture on of your first meeting with david davis well you had lots of notes in front of you and he had nothing he got a lot of criticism for that in the in the british press and i mean he has a slightly different story about that of saying that well it was that was not a negotiating meeting it was it was a photo opportunity um but he had his right is right i i was sorry for this this polymeric because he asked me to have a short meeting in my office before beginning this negotiation session and it came with the ambassador and earlier beans without paper but i i was prepared to go immediately after for the negotiation with my to deputy uh sabine and stephanie and we have our dosi in front of us and and he asked himself for the photograph and he defused the photograph after himself not me and so so i i was sorry for this polling because it was not true huh he he also got a lot of criticism for not getting into the detail and you kind of confirm that in the book don't you where you said sometimes you had thought that he would be in in in the room but he delegated a lot of the detail it was not a daily base in brazil we were not a daily base in negotiation one per month uh and uh so um for the details we worked with europeans and and and this and this team and sometimes i i've been surprised by some speeches for instance my describe booker first famous dinner with jean-claude juncker and te resame the ten downing street and a few days before i was surprised to to to hear or to listen david davis speaking about the the the two agencies they do european agencies see it you know in london the medicine agencies and the banking agencies and he said uh it's perfectly possible for us to keep these two agencies in in london despite despite the brexit it was not true so it was one of my surprises huh you had quite a lot of surprises over the four years didn't you yes but the reason why along this wrong road i tried to avoid any kind of passion aggressivity emotion i am able to emotion i was very moved in in ireland but i i tried to avoid to show emotion and and passion and to to stick to the fact to to stick to the legal base to stick to our interest and to to listen to the uk interest but to to stick to the facts do you think in retrospect it was because it was not a meeting it was not a congress it was a negotiation of two treaties of one thousand and forty hundred pensions very true i wonder in retrospect though if you think it was a good idea to have so many press conferences because there's a conflict isn't there between transparency and letting people know generally where the negotiations are at but at times i felt that the negotiations being conducted almost through the press conferences do you think that it was a good idea to do it that way i think it was a good idea to have at regular time one one per month or not so not too many uh press conference because but there was no uh interference between this press conference and negotiation we just say what where we are where we were in this press conference and uh on our side we have chosen would be a surprise for the uk side to use what what is unusual in brussels to be fair uh it was in unusual total transparency because this transparency avoid the leaks many times good point and also it was one of the tool of the the trust and the unity of the 27. we have this died in our side which is once again unusual to say everything to everybody on every issue at the same time everything and every every every issue at the same time speaking at the same time to the german chancellor or the prime minister of malta and it was the reality of negotiation on our side it was constraints for the negotiation in brussels we had a special group of 27 brexit delegates one per country and my team report to this group twice per week and i report myself one per week to the parliament the total conference and you were very successful in keeping the 27 unified weren't you because i think as you say in the book that there were attempts by the british government to try and pick one or two countries off by talking to them directly david successfully tried every day to bypass my team to pass by myself to engage directly with the government it was a mistake it was losing time why because i was a negotiator not only at the commission as usual but also at the same time on the same mandate negotiator of the 27 leaders and the the european parliament which is once again unusual and i think the uk did not understand this difference and until the very last moment but it was losing time to try to buy spice because i never never i could have worked without without the total coherence between my position and depression from the states and the parliament but another point is is important speaking about unity and the paradox is that the leverage of unity has been the unanimity in that negotiation we were obliged on the european side to be unanimous to conclude one member state could have blocked everything one more so that means that one concern of one member state are to become the concern the 26 others and did it ever get close to that well i mean in the latter stages france was obviously not very happy about the some of the fishing arrangements for example in france um but were there other countries that that were expressing concerns which could have led to a veto it was the rule was every once for all every one for all that means that one concern specific concern not only fishery for france or for for denmark or for belgium or netherlands or or ireland but speaking about the peace in ireland we'll come on to that in a few minutes the main the main point the main example the peace in ireland is a concern from ireland sharing and supporting by the 26 houses but the same for gibraltar or spain the site the british bases in in cyprus and so many issues every one for all and it this unanimity this obligation to be unanimous has been the main leverage of unity rob replaced david davis um a few months for a few very few months i don't think you really got on with him did you no we have no not the same character we have not the same past the same experience also it was a little bit difficult perhaps it was much more political generally speaking right in front of me in particular with david frost in the last year people speaking always about rhetoric philosophy politics but the fact is that this treaty was about trade transport fishery peace in islands also less less philosophy than practical things the paradox if i may say frankly speaking that for negotiation between the french and the brits i i think i used to be much more pragmatic what do you mean i i just repeat the paradox between the french and british negotiator if you look at the two during this time i think that i used to be more pragmatic and now i don't know now i know i i'm still pragmatic but the pragmatism is the quality of the usual quality of the brits did you feel that one of the main challenges that you had was to work out who was actually speaking on behalf of theresa may because um obviously ollie robbins became a key figure did you find that he was the main channel in the end and that the politicians almost took a side role no i'm i'm having my mind clearly the polymix the attack sometimes not not very fair against the earlier robins and audiobeans works in my view uh at the owner of the the uk government it it he was and he used to be and i think he still is a great person and a very responsible and very competent man so also facing the the change of the minister and child of the black city he assumed yes europe he get the guarantee of the continuity during the mandate of teresa but after i left and we had a new team for the conclusion of the first negotiation remember the conclusion was clearly negotiated by boris johnson david frost in particular under irish issue what was boris johnson in some ways easier to deal with than theresa may [Music] we made the deal with the boy johnson the deal the two deals the first one on the political institutional brexit november 19 and the second deal the economic and trade brexit christmas when 2022 20 20. we we made the deal with boris johnson we did not succeed to make the deal with uh with terry zama that was to succeed and you succeed to to get approval and the ratification department did you trust boris johnson i'm ready to trust him but the point is now the trust needs the respect of the signature trust needs in in the medium and long term the fact the reality for the uk to respect its signature to implement the treaty as it is one person who you are quite critical of in the book is um martin selmair who was dubbed in the british tabloid press the beast of berlimon and he he was jean-claude juncker's chief of staff but very very influential and you accuse him of interfering in the in the processes which wasn't really his job and he once he once famously said that northern ireland would be the price that the uk has to pay for brexit when you heard that reported what was your reaction i have not the same feeling it is not my position uh but i i do with with the martin zermayer is a very competent man a very professional very european no question at that point it was unusual for the commission and for the cabinet of the president to have a specific and unique negotiator and the fact is that i always add with jean-claude juncker directly a link of trust and friendship so it was perhaps sometimes difficult to accept by his cabinet but but uh finally we succeed to to to work together but did you ever have to say to jean-claude juncker you need to stop him talking no i just to check with george young that he trusts me it is support my line and it was the case until the last time very diplomatically put um on northern ireland um i certainly felt at the time and you i don't think you'll agree with this but i felt at the time that the eu was almost weaponizing the issue of northern ireland because it knew that it would be a very difficult one for britain to handle and that difficulties were put in place that need not have been difficulties i'll give you one example leo veradka the irish t shirk made a speech in belfast i can't remember the day but i think it was sometime in 2017 and he said in the speech that it would be possible for britain and ireland to sort out the border between them and almost immediately almost within weeks he was singing a very different tune and the suspicion was that the the the commission had stamped on this and said no no no you you can't do side deals with britain this has to be done through us tell me your perspective on that first of all i am i always be able to count on the support and the friendship of rio veradka the same for mural martin after him as a t-shock number two uh it was clear from the very beginning i don't remember clearly this speech of robert but it was clear that being a member of the single market the irish problem must be the probably 27 because what is at stake for us in ireland is number one the peace which is a common responsibility number two the protection single market so let me just be frank we never used the irish case in a bad bad phase for the negotiations never but only my only concern because i'm very i love the irish people but perhaps because i'm french but uh i i feel very well in the island yeah to to be frog and and uh except when you the the one in rugby which we tried very often um but um i feel very well i i love this country and the people frankly uh and and what is that stake in ireland it's not the question of trade or goods or technical it's a problem linked to the peace the people so no question to you this this issue for just technical or tactic of negotiations and my goal was very clear what create problems in ireland is brexit nothing else now nothing else so we try to find operational solution technical solutions for the problem created by brexit we tried with the resume several times the family the famous backstop the global backstop the limited backstop okay johnson arrives and asks for a new change we work with johnson brandon with him not without him not against him we work to find a solution with him and we and we found the solution with him i know perfectly what he signed um and to be wrong i think there is a way to to to to maintain the stability of iran in the peace without drama if we try in both side to implement this this protocol uh by dramatizing the issue we are speaking about checks and control uh in belfast for the part of the goods coming from england to northern ireland through belfast and not super debris you know that part of the goods are coming for this part coming directly to them through belfast we are speaking of checks and control and let me be clear a part of the checks and control have existed before the brexit and i i recall in this book in my meeting with mr dodd mrs doddan nigel dodds yeah the dup politician and i asked do you recognize mr dot that part of the checks exist today is answer is this so we have to de-dramatize just miracle for the the people and the auditors a cow coming from england to belfast if there is no border on the ground a cow entering in in the same country from england to northern ireland entering in france he's entering in from the same time mechanically and because the island is a is a indeed and i completely understand that but that that could be a problem if british food standards for example were inferior to those in the european union but they're not in fact in many ways they're they are superior and and it seems to a lot of people that while the protocol had there had to be a protocol nobody's denying that and i don't think anybody's saying well it well apart from maybe some of the unionist parties that it should be abolished completely but where you then find difficulties in the implementation and clearly there are difficulties i don't think anybody's denying that um those difficulties need to be resolved are you confident that they will be resolved soon i i know i'm not no longer in charge for the commission now that the mission is in the hands of a very wise man and very competent with the vice president of the commission mauro sefkovic and he is doing a good work we are ready to find operational and technical solutions to discuss with the uk not to re renegotiate the protocol so if we if it is clear and in the next few days and weeks the uk government must be very careful if it's clear that we work in the framework of the protocol i think we can we can we can be able to find solutions for instance for for the transport of medicine and some other would you say the uk government must be very careful in the next few weeks what do you mean i think that we have to respect this protocol for the uk government to respect its signature this situation is following each capital obviously by the irish people but also in washington so but it at stake is a pc island so everybody have to be responsible and i think that we have to work to implement in a clever way practical way without any kind of dramatization or the ideology this protocol i know that it is scientists i know the position of the dep but i know also the positional majority of the political party in northern ireland but because this protocol is is in favor of the economy of northern ireland let's move on to your future because you're standing to be president of france um you hit the headlines in this country recently as i'm sure you know when you said that you thought that power should be taken back from the european courts and also there should be a referendum on immigration into france nigel farage called you a massive hypocrite for that and welcomed you to the eurosceptic calls um it did seem extraordinary that somebody who's been defending european institutions would then effectively seek to undermine them i i've been never impressed by mr farage or his polymix and his critics and never impressed during the negotiation i'll certainly not be impressed now definitely not so so so he's wrong because what i'm speaking about is precisely a new french national policy for migration coming from outside of europe i never put into question as mr farage the the freedom movement inside europe i knew never put into question the fact that my country is one of the leader of the europe from the very beginning and i want to for france to remain and to be strong and europe to be sold so i'm i'm working as a french politician responsible running for the french presidency on the problem which are the problem of france today with a uncontrolled uncontrolled migration policy and this policy does not work in france it doesn't work at the european level so we have to change and and mr farr can say what what you want to say and i have nothing to do with him nothing never but i i have something to do with the french problem and the the the french concern to to to be responsible and i have no lessons how does a referendum help i mean you you've seen what happened in our referendum i mean what do you even ask in such a referendum did i find specifically dedicated to the question of migration but what do you ask because there is no reference in the french constitution to migrations so we have to put some words to be able to take the national measure we need uh in in some cases but what is that measure the first the first point is about the capacity for the parliament to decide every year on quotas for migration economic migration from outside abroad a second point is to give what we call the constitutional shield to have the capacity to have in our constitution which is the case today the words we need on the migration some would say though that you're only doing this because you know that it to win you've got to get votes back from mourinho le pen's far-right party and that they're obsessed by immigration and therefore you have to talk about it in this way to get the right wing vote please look this morning this morning in very very great newspaper figueroa an article a tribune signed by mr emmanuel vals the former socialist prime minister of france saying exactly what i said exactly the same so i i don't i don't care on mrs lepen or the others i care about the problem and the the fact with the which not that work in my country and to find solutions i'm european i'm patriot and i have no reason to receive neither or from the patriotism from the european involvement but i i mean the difference with many other is precisely the brexit i want to draw the lessons we have to tackle to answer to the concern of the people in the right way you voted for emmanuel macron last time if you win the nominee second second ballot yeah right um if you win the nomination you will be fighting him now you've been quite critical of him recently what did you think of his reaction to the creation of the orcas pact between britain america and australia um did this decision of to cancel this uh contract submarine is very serious um on the substance itself obviously but also and perhaps more seriously about the method and the fact that the behavior of between allies is not was not correct this contract has been cancelled without any prior discussion between allies between the united states america australia uk and france and it was not fair and i think that the good behavior not the right behavior to have between allies if alliance means trust and not allegiance i'm not ready to accept an alliance which would mean allegiance it's not the interest of nato to have a weak uh leg in europe so once again i think it was not the right behavior and now the promise series and the french are unanimous and disappointed the u.s and the uk a lot of effort to do to rebuild the trust because this trust is seriously fragilized if you become president how will the relationship between france and the united kingdom be different from if emmanuel macron wins again i'm not looking to create a difference everywhere when the the french attitude is correct when the french decision are correct i will support and continue or in profile we could have the same the same feeling about the fact that the situation today is very very serious and it's not good for both sides so we need to rebuild the trust before between allies after the ocus crisis we need trust to be sure that the signature of uk will be respected and the brexit treaty for ireland and for the fishery this is a precondition for us to to rebuild the cordial antennt that's a very positive way to end michelle barnier thank you let me just add okay i always add during all this negotiation three points in my mind and it is the truth number one to defend the eu the integrity of single market no way to accept any kind of cherry picking number two the peace in arnold number three the spirit we need in a medium and long term to cooperate between uk and europe and uk and france and i will remain on this line well if you win and i wish you luck i've never interviewed a french president before so i hope you'll come back uh when you when you are in the or maybe i can come to the elysee an interview that would be good let's first of all do the people french people decide but i'm ready to come in any case fantastic michelle barnier's book is called my secret diary it's out now and it's a cracking read thank you very much indeed

Channel: LBC

Views: 39,193

Rating: 4.771739 out of 5

Keywords: lbc, lbc live, watch lbc, interview, interviews, politics news, british politics, uk politics live, live debate, debate, current affairs 2020, Coronavirus, Coronavirus uk, Coronavirus update, Coronavirus news, Brexit, Coronavirus symptoms, coronavirus explained, covid 19, corona, boris johnson, boris johnson interview, boris johnson coronavirus, coronavirus speech, farage, James O’Brien, Iain Dale, Nick Ferrari, Johnson

Id: gFGHSw4lcrc

Length: 46min 28sec (2788 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 29 2021