How To Write Evil - Tony DuShane

Tony DuShane, Writer/Podcaster/Teacher: I  hate that person I hate what they did to me   I'm gonna write a character about  them and I'm gonna show everybody Film Courage: How do you write evil? Tony: Easily enough unfortunately I think we  got a lot of evil in all of us so it's okay   to just dive into the part of us that's dark  if I'm you know it's I think writing evil is   to write evil you have to almost pretend like no  one's going to read it because you don't want you   don't want anyone to think you're evil oh my god  I would never be that evil well there's just a   beauty to knowing we all have an evil inside of us  and we can go there we just choose not to sure so   there's there's just a beauty of  just really letting it go on the page   and not and and some people read it and be like  oh you know I mean I you know I can't write serial   killers like that that narrative just that scares  me I don't like even I can never watch a serial   killer film those things just don't make sense to  me but you know we we can find we we can embrace   the our tendencies because we all have  bad in us it's you know and we're not   we're not politicians well well politicians are  more bad than people than normal but but we're not   trying I don't think we need to present ourselves  as beautiful flowers we're all a little corrupt   and especially in the film industry you see a  lot more corruption but under the guise of like   oh this is virtue and you get behind the  curtain a little bit and you're like ooh so it's   kind of easy to write evil it's almost  easier to write evil than it is to write a   you know evil's interesting it is and do you  think it's more interesting to write a virtuous   character who secretly has evil  or an evil character that you know   you see it and you go okay this is definitely evil  and then you're seeing sort of what that person's   life is like are we more intrigued by what's not  shown and what we're discovering as the audience   as well I'll first answer that as the writer so  what I try to do is when I find I go back into   my life and I go you know what I hate that I hate  that person I hate what they did to me I'm gonna   write a character about them and I'm gonna show  everybody just what a piece of crap human being   this person is and when this person watches the  movie they're gonna go oh my goodness that's me   I need to change my life so that's the original  intent and then I start working on the character   and I start massaging the character and then I  start to realize oh crap I have empathy for the   character and then I develop more and more empathy  and I'm like oh crap that character is part of   me the character may never really grow in the  story may still be a piece of crap in the story   but I develop empathy for why they're not good  people but as far as the layers of an evil person   having virtue and a virtuous person having evil  I think it's about I want to tackle both of those   both of those intrigue me to no end because  there is a flip side to everything there's   and I don't think I would actually the virtuous  person who has who's not getting in touch with   the evil would intrigue me more than working  with on an evil person that's has virtue because   because there's there with with a virtuous  person they're they're actively pushing down   that evil where with with an evil person they're  actively going I'm virtuous no really I'm virtuous   can you think of any characters that bring  to mind that are evil that you actually   have empathy for I know a lot of people  have talked about the joker but that   you go you know what maybe this person there's  there's you have some soft spot for that person   yeah and well the evil characters I  mean for the most part the antagonist   if it's a like like a superhero movie or a James  Bond or a mission impossible the the antagonist   has to be more interesting than the hero I think  that the layers got to be there and then then   we're like how is the hero going to get through  this so I find the do I have empathy for the   for the hero for the antagonist and those kind of  hero type movies I think I just get a kick out of   how evil they are and I'm like happy they're evil  because I'm sitting there enjoying their evilness   and how how is tom cruise going to get through  blank blank blank you know in the in those in   those total formula movies that I just adore  beyond belief I know they're not going to die   at the end that's not the question the question is  how are they not going to die that's what that's   what keeps us watching why is evil important in  storytelling I think we're intrigued with eagle   evil I think if we I mean you know I grew up in  a very religious household so there's the bible   the bible is just all evil this is bad this is  bad this is bad don't do this and there's there's   a lot of and then they go through this there's so  many evil stories in the old testament you're like   wait god's telling you to kill your own  son you know there's there's I think   our collective mythology has just a ton of evil  in it and we may try to paint it as like oh no   no we're all good we're all good but you think  about you know how we got here and what's going on   and evil is the theme you know Genghis Khan man  you know that guy's a hero of his narrative but   what did he do actually I can't remember what  did he do he pillaged he pillaged and you know   it's like the Norwegians the Vikings you know what  did they do you know they were they're heroes of   their own stories but they're decimating cultures  so I think I think it's a general narrative of   what what we should explore and that's and  then how and then how are we coping with   the evil around us and then how are  we coping how are we coping with   empathizing with evil things you know and there's  times when there's beautiful times when I have   evil thoughts even if I'm just driving around Los  Angeles and I'm like that person who cut me off   probably shouldn't exist on this earth there's  a little joy to having that fantasy even though   we don't act out the fantasy but we  do get to write down the fantasy so   I ithink I don't think you know we don't go  through the whole day with all virtuous thoughts   I was I was just at starbucks getting a cup of  coffee and this idiot in front of me is like had   this huge two different credit cards you know  all these all these stipulations to his order   all he got was one drink and one thing I thought  he was an Uber Eats guy and this guy is just and I'm sitting there going that guy might  be you know it's part of the human collective   he may be dispensable and then it's just  you know it's it's a fun thought to think   about but in real life we never do it and then  if I followed him home I would see that he's   a good father to his kids and he was just having a  rough day so that's you know there's where there's   evil and there's empathy we need we need the whole  we I guess we need the whole story and that's why   we tell the story we need the whole story to map  out the the whys of he was the antagonist in my   life for five minutes because my venti coffee was  late okay no I talk about going way out no I saw   someone at a store the other day trying to return  something but quote didn't have the credit card   and was arguing and the workers were very nice and  they said I'm really sorry sir if you come back   with the credit card you'll be fine no no I need  service and and wouldn't take no for an answer   and in that moment I'm looking at the person  like okay this is weird and doesn't seem right   but who knows maybe legitimately it didn't have  the credit card and it just he had the receipt   or they shouldn't be on this earth anymore they  had all this stuff but my point is I mean we   we see we used to see tabloids and we would see  evil there and now we can go on social media and   now we're all judges of what's evil even if  it's one video of somebody pushing someone in   a convenience store yeah and we don't know what  happened on the other end to prom we don't know   we just see that one snippet you know and so now  we're watching evil played out in in real life   quote unquote but we don't know who really was the  offending party who was the first one to sort of   prompt something so and that's just that's that's  really intriguing because that's all point of view   so we're getting we're getting everyone tells  their own truth and i'd rather ha i'd rather   have that in fiction and on the page and be able  to work it than to try to understand the real   social media conflicts that we get you know that's  where I'm just like I I'm skeptical of all of them   is it healthy for writers to go to dark places  I used to think that it was important to   liv I one of my favorite writers is William T  Vollmann and he's a guy that would go to the would   stay in the tenderloin [San Francisco] and stay  at a house to the you know and do crack and he   and he's actively said these things so I'm not hit  but I even interviewed him it's it's published but   he would actively go to these places and and  I thought you know what I need to do what he   does not not to the crack end but I needed  I want needed to be around certain elements   that were dark in order to get inspiration  and i've I realized I don't I really don't   it's there there's dark everywhere I tell you we  don't need to seek it out there's there's there's   dark amongst us and you know it's and maybe that's  why Vollmann's written so many more great books   than i've ever written maybe maybe maybe I'm doing  it wrong and he's doing it right when he goes   I mean he's he embeds himself in war and does a  lot of he's he's what he does is gets there and   feels it and needs to know the whole story but  that's what he's writing I'm not writing that   and I don't need to I don't need  to essentially try to lose my mind   if I'm working on a character that's trying to  lose their mind that's losing their mind and   then go wait a second I need therapy three times  a week now it's just I think what I need to do   is to and what all writers need to do is just  go what's my personality who am I don't need to   try to be someone else I you know I would love  to be a woman but I'm not a Vollmann so it's   within my parameters in my daily life the dark  doesn't the dark comes to us no matter what I   don't it's anyone who seems as privileged and you  know wealthy and think and it seems like they have   it all together no there's dark there they don't  need to go move into a dark area they they have a   wealth of they have a wealth of material that they  can build from from their own experience and yeah   sure so the sort of gonzo journalism Hunter S.  Thompson approach you don't have to necessarily   take that but what about recounting dark stories  do you find sometimes with your students that   they have a tough time or there's others that  they can't turn it off that it's like flows like   a a bad faucet well the the problem with the true  stories that come in with my students is they say   oh no this really happened and this is true and  I'm like but it's not interesting enough you're   not you're not putting enough conflict in there so  it's usually this happened and this made me really   upset and I'm like okay yeah but make me care  so you can it could be based on something true   but to make that particular event that was true  to you and dark to you to to make it universal   you're going to have to really kind of dissect  it you're going to have to maneuver it around   you're going to have to play with it and massage  it to get the essence of what happened we need the   emotional essence of what happened we don't  need the play-by-play so when it comes to   true things that happen I think a lot of  the times when I'm dealing with students is   get out of the play by play what's the what's the  what's the emotional effect that you're trying to   get through because that's more there's more truth  to conveying the emotion than just showing the   play-by-play because we want to get to the hearts  of our of our readers and audience do you think   that sometimes we think a story is interesting  and it's not it's not really that or that any   any story can be interesting even if it's just  someone waiting in line for coffee and there's   a person who's paying with two credit cards and  needing special attention yeah it's I think um i think every story is interesting but it has  that's when the idea that's when the idea comes up   this idea sounds good but it has to be put on the  page the the idea that's not put on the page is   not a fleshed-out idea so there yeah who wrote  that book it was the whole book is the timeline   of the book is a guy on an escalator going down  or up the escalator I think it's called mezzanine   and I can't remember the author's name right  now and that sounds like a very boring book if   you were to pitch that oh yeah this whole book is  based on a guy going down an escalator in a mall   that's like well that doesn't sound interesting  put it on the page though craft it and it becomes   something that people are engaged with so  I think we can knock out our you know we   I find joy and fun in the most mundane  things and then I'll write them down and then   as I keep writing them and massaging them then  I'll be like oh wait there is something in there   there's something in the mundane oh that's  cool but it ha I mean it has to be written   for for anything to happen that's so you know  if I were to write that story about the guy at   Starbucks probably most the story would be based  on what a terrible I what person I am but from   but not you know I that's how I would approach it  but I wouldn't approach it from that point of view   I would approach it as the hero of the story  but it would be dissecting everything that's   terrible about my thought process while  as I'm writing the protagonist that's me   that protagonist is not going to know that their  thought process is terrible and then that's where   comedy will probably come in because the the or  you know the urge to do all these certain things   I'll look back at it and I'll be like that's  when I find the empathy in other people and I   know and I realize the stupidity of myself and  the stupidity is glorious and just like this   this pretty presumption this presumptuous  you know who am I to judge and it's just   like that's that's I think that's  the juice that's a lot of fun for me. Question For The Viewers: How do you write evil?

Channel: Film Courage

Views: 54,398

Keywords: Screenwriting tips, screenwriting 101, screenwriting for beginners, screenwriting techniques, screenwriting advice, writing a screenplay, how to write a movie, writing advice, writing tips, Tony DuShane, drinks with tony, filmcourage, film courage, interview

Id: QPz5NrQolqM

Length: 16min 21sec (981 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 12 2021