How To Work Less and Get More Done with Alex Pang | Feel Better Live More Podcast

maybe our assumptions about the necessity of overwork the constant pressure of deadlines always at your back maybe our assumptions that we need that in order to do really good work maybe that's actually completely backwards maybe in Florida to do the kind of work that we really want to do it's necessary to pay more attention to how we rest Alex welcome to the podcast no thanks very much it's great to be with you yeah look I have been looking forward to speaking to you ever since I read your first book well the first book of yours that I've read which is called West which I think I where's in about 2017 yeah something like that really weirdly enjoyed I know we Vince right said a bit on Twitter and when I saw that your new books coming out shorter all about how working less could get more than I thought okay I hope he's in London soon to actually do some PR then I can actually grab you and talk to you so that's are coming on ya know so first question for me is how's London mean so far that's been great and I will confess I am one of I'm a huge Anglophile I did a dissertation on Victorian science so I've been coming here for a long time so it's always great to be back yeah fantastic anything you do in particular when you get to London you know usually I'm here for work so you know the days are spent doing workshops or consulting or what have you so my most of my free time is in the evening and I take my camera and go out walking and London is a fantastic place for just you know turning a corner and discovering some you know yeah brilliant little square or beautiful street so that's usually what I do I mean that's super interesting Alex because that in many ways plays into what you write about you write about rest you white specifically about deliberate rest and you know I know from myself when doing book promotion and you're on book tours it is full-on and hectic and you can be go go go from stardates at the end of the day interviews talks workshops whatever it is which is fun obviously we're very fortunate to have that opportunity but I know this year with my third book I have actually been very proactive about putting deliberate rest into my days it's something I probably didn't do on previous book tours and it sounds like photography in the evening for you in some ways is your way of counterbalancing all the work stress in the day it's not fair to say we can finish now because that's exactly right you've pretty much summed up the order but the argument of of rest I mean I think you know one of the things that we often underestimate is the value of that kind of that kind of activity and that kind of your active rest in helping us make sense of the day you know sort of order process ideas have new ideas and you know kind of generally make sense of our lives right and one of the things I talk about in the book is the importance of what I call deep play like serious hobbies for people so you know whether you are this you know this can be anything from you know painting as it was for Winston Churchill to mountain climbing to you know other sorts of sports or you know or or chess or you know or or my wife is a serious quilter and these you know one of the things that deep play does is it offers and all offers a lot of the same pleasures of our of our work in a very different kind of context you know one of the things you talk about in or if in your in your latest book is how building healthy habits on top of on top of existing practices is a valuable thing and you know I think for super busy people or people who are really passionate about their work it's often difficult to detach even if they want to because you know you kind of naturally gravitate to thinking about you know thinking about problems that that you're trying to solve and deep play is really valuable because it offers that it it offers busy people an interesting alternative to their or to their to their working lives and for me I realized that these kinds of evening walks have that kind of purpose for me because they are you know it's an opportunity both for a certain amount of reflection there's also in a place like this a lot of interesting discovery one of the things you've got to do in workshops or interviews you know you listen very closely you have to pay attention you're responding to people and you're kind of doing that with a place when you're out walking with a camera and then finally there's often a kind of autobiographical dimension to deep play it connects to things that you know experiences you had in your childhood or family things and I realized a few years ago actually walking around London one evening that my dad as a history professor and I used to go down to Brazil with him as a kid when he went to archives he'd spend the whole day in the archives and what would we do after that we'd go out walking in the evening right and you know all of a sudden it hit me I'm doing the thing that you know I used to do with my dad when I was 8 years old and I thought there's something really interesting going on here so yeah it's you know it's a it's a simple thing that turns out to be actually for me pretty deep yeah it's interesting for me that you know it's adults hair I see a lot of patience and a lot of the time people seem to get an understanding of the importance of down time the importance of rest after they burnt out like I don't know it's something about the human condition where you you can hear it and you can say oh that's important but I'm busy you know I've got a busy I need to keep going but when people burn outs and they suffer the consequences of it often that's when they go wait a minute mm-hmm I need to start putting some of this into my life how did you get interested in this whole idea of deliberate rest well you know I've seen very much the same thing and in both of both of my books no matter how smart you are it seems you've learned about this stuff the hard way you know even Nobel Prize winners are you know are stupid about how they you know how they spend their time and sort of and their energy and how hard they work before they get smart and so it makes it a little easier for me to say that I did exactly the same thing right you know I was a canoe I worked as a consultant in Silicon Valley in order think-tanks doing technology forecasting and futures work for about 10 years or so and kind of reached that point where it's the sort of work that's fascinating but you're always kind of half a project behind and it is basically impossible to catch up right the nature of the work is there's always always new clients new projects it's difficult to know when to be you know when to declare yourself finished because there's always a little bit more you can do to make something a little bit better and especially if you're a perfectionist it's that it's a it's a perfect recipe for overwork and burnout and so you know I found it was it seemed clear to me that you know I needed it kind of take a step back and sort of figure out how to do things differently or it was going to get really bad I was lucky enough to have an offer to go to to go to Microsoft Cambridge for three months to have a sabbatical and to do some work there and it was there that I discovered that and I was I was working on technology and attention projects about halfway through I had this realization that I was getting incredible amounts of stuff done I was reading a lot I was having great experiences but I didn't feel the kind of time pressure that was just a part of like everyday life in Silicon Valley and it made me think you know maybe our assumptions about the necessity of overwork right the you know the need to have or the constant pressure of deadlines always at your back maybe our assumptions that we need that in order to do really good work that we need that as an expression of passion maybe that's actually completely backwards maybe in order to do the kind of work that we really want to do it's necessary to pay more attention to how we rest and that actually that rest is an important part of our creative process not just you know it's obviously important for you know recharging or mental and order physical batteries but there's an important creative dimension to it as well and that's what got me started on the research that eventually became rest and which I followed up with shorter so it really does kind of flow out of my own you know my own kind of near-miss with burnout and my own just completely fortunate discovery of you know the value of rest yeah and you mentioned that you could always do a little bit more make that project a little bit more finished a little bit more completes but there's another way of looking that as well in the sense that often say to patients that look your to-do list is never done mm-hmm right because even if you're in a meeting and you're completing something there will be another email that rocks up whilst you're in that so it's it's this whole idea of how do we create some borders mm-hmm which I think in many ways technology has made it harder for us and I guess you know I want to delve into shorter the new book and how we can a you know you know evolve our working parts but I think that whole idea that technology was meant to save us time technology was meant to free us up so that actually we can do more of the things that we love actually for many of us have the reverse effects where instead of technology helping us it's now enslaving us and we're sort of a prisoner to these devices that actually is making us more stressed than ever before yeah you know I think we've there are studies that that find that many of us interact with our phones or check our email something like a hundred fifty times a day now and it is remarkable how in a short span of time these have gone from yeah court of curiosities to being all you know to being like the thing that we spend we spend most of our attention with and the and the thing with which most many of us interact interact with sort of in the world and I think that it is remarkable that we have the ability to carry our you know essentially to carry all offices around in our pockets but being always but you know the capacity to be always available the the ability to answer an email instantly has moved from a technical capability to a kind of social expectation not really with any one sort of setting out to do that but that's definitely the way it's evolved you know when people first developed these devices that ideal was that you would be able to break work up into chunks that you could do at different times a day as appropriate to you but it's turned instead it's kind of ground work into a fine powder that now kind of settles throughout you know settles throughout our days and finally it doesn't help that you know Silicon Valley you know where I live has done an incredible job at you know using behavioral science to make these devices even more compelling so yeah and but I think that you know all of this means that especially in a world where boundaries for work don't really exist the way that they did went in you know agricultural economies or in industrial economies when you stopped work when the Sun went down or when the factory factory whistle went you know when we have to make the choice for ourselves about wind projects are finished when work is done for the day it becomes you know it becomes more of a challenge to do so and it becomes really easy to default to the idea that well we'll do just one more thing yeah so but you know making it making it a choice makes it a lot harder look when people ask me about stress I've sort of written a previous book on stress and people say what's the biggest stressor in the modern world then I say of course well it's different for different people but I've got to say it's very hard for me to get away from the idea that's the biggest or one of the major stressors for most of us is the fact that those boundaries between work life at home life have pretty much vanished you know I think even 15 years ago I'm gonna surmise you in most jobs you would have finished your work let's see works a bit late you finished at 6 p.m. let's say you got home you might have had some food at home and then you probably actually put the TV on to unwind and actually just you know or read a book or something whereas now it's not uncommon as soon as that happens or during your dinner even you'd be looking at your smartphone and actually I've got a working email just get back to after dinner and it's this kind of slow insidious constant like barrage of information that we're just constantly consuming it is having I think a detrimental effects YES on our productivity or work but also on our health mm-hmm and I think this is why your work I think is touching on something super super important you started off this conversation talking about deep play mm-hmm well when you are doing deep play and I love you to define what that is as well but when you're doing deep play I'm gay thing that actually you're probably not on your device you're probably by default switching off at least through one definition about Sam you know I think that the the point about about boundaries is exactly right you know and one of the things that I've seen in my latest book about companies that have moved to four day weeks is that one of the biggest benefits that that these schedules deliver are clearer boundaries between work time work time and personal time and even within the day between the time you spend focused on work and the time you spend hanging out with your colleagues but to get to the deep play you know I think one of the one of the really important features of deep play is that for people who are passionate about their work for or for people who are in you know high-stress jobs or it's difficult to like leave stuff behind deep play offers a real it's important because it offers a kind of easy way to switch out of work mode right it's something that is just as compelling as work and therefore you know you don't have to like work hard to settle your mind or you know and stuff you know you can just get right into it which is you know which is really important for developing the habit and keeping it so what is deep play D plays got a couple features paradoxically it offers some of the same kinds of psychological rewards as work but without the frustrations so Winston Churchill talked about in this book painting as a pastime about how painting was great for busy people like politicians and writers because for him you know painting was like politics not you know not the comparison that most of us would draw but for him it was like politics because in both cases you needed a clear vision of what you were going to do you had a certain amount of time in which to act you had to kind of strategize to figure out or how are you you were going to create this thing it was but it was different because you were you know work in paint and outdoors rather than or with words and it didn't have the frustrations of political life because while he was painting he didn't have someone from the Labour Party looking over his shoulder saying you know those clouds are bigger and the earth and the trees the wrong color and so and I am amazed at the number of you know great scientists you know of neurosurgeons CEOs people who were in incredibly competitive you know ambitious fields people who you know do world-class work who have these kinds of serious hobbies that will take them out of the lab or the c-suite sometimes for you know two or three weeks at a time but it's like the only thing that could possibly get them out yeah and so I think that you know and so as a way of you know creating creating an alternative to work that has a really clear boundary you know you can't think about office politics when you're 200 feet up a mountain right as a way of provide you know providing exercise and kind of you know a different sort of cognitive exercise yeah Rahman see if well many people you know I interviewed volts along go on this podcasts a few months ago he's you know you know a lot people think he may well win a Nobel Prize one day this work on fasting and what it does in the body he's a very very accomplished musician I know many scientists who are accomplished musicians one of my best mates who I play in a band with he is a helicopter doctor and a leader in Xiamen II in France and he's an excellent bass player and an excellent ski Mountaineer and it's amazing it's not I guess there's that perception isn't there that oh you know I can't engage in my hobbies because I got to focus on my work I don't have time but you could almost flip that and I guess you would make the case that actually by focusing on those deliberate periods of passion and creativity and sport and you know deep play I guess you would make the argument that you can it be more productive in your work as well as feel better about yourself yeah you know I think it does it does a couple really important things you know one is that it's a way of reminding you of what you love best about this thing you know when there's like office politics or when you're in projects that you know aren't going very well it's you know it's easy for you know your enthusiasm for work to flag and to kind of wonder you know what is it that I'm doing here you know not just with this project like what am I doing with my life and deep place serves as a way of helping you remember you know what what life and accomplishment at its best is like right I think another important thing is that it can serve as a kind of or of kind of creative playground in that you know it's a it is an opportunity for your kind of creative subconscious to keep you know to kind of turn over ideas even while you're focused on something else and we often think of this as a total you know the these sort of aha moments as these sort of mysterious you know unpredictable things in reality though you know psychology psychologists have done a fairly good job of identifying periods when these are more likely to happen and deep play offers a space in which your mind can turn over ideas that or that you haven't really quite worked out but can be really important and I mean one great example is actually the musical Hamilton right lin-manuel Miranda had been working on in the heights for like seven years and he finally takes a vacation and he takes Ron sure knows biography of Hamilton with him and he says as soon as I took a break from in the heights Hamilton jumped into my head and it's you know and it's a fantastic example of how these breaks aren't like a competitor to work or a competitor - you know - good thinking but rather or you know but rather our partner to it yeah and I think that is such a key point Alex isn't it we win this more is better culture where our there's so much to do so the harder I work the better it's gonna be the more I'm gonna get done if I work through my lunch break you know what I'm gonna get more done people around me you're gonna see that I'm working more and it's that big badge of honour in society that in some ways we need to start reframing Vance as I come out I think I've heard you say it before it's your own what I'm saying I mean that the rest is not works opposite rest his works partner yeah each one you know each one justifies the other supports and sustains the other I mean it's a bit light you know it's a bit like it's a bit like a good marriage right Rove you know or if you are different from your spouse and yet together you know together you support each other yeah sort of you make you make each other better and better people and work and rest I think operate in very much the same way yeah I giving a lot of well-being towards the companies now and you know one of my top tips for them is one of the lowest tech tips that's out about which I say try and take a tech free lunch break every day even if it's just for 20 minutes it's like for all the fancy tech we've got like if you and I explain it so if they understood biochemically physiologically what happens and I've done it with so many people so many patients that they come back there they're more creative the more productive they feel karma they're less stressed in the afternoon but they're also less stressed when they go home to that partner in the evening which results and improve relationships and all kinds of things and this why I'm such a huge fan of your work because there's there's so much synergy in what you're talking about and I think the more people that can talk about this and raise awareness of this for people I think the more benefits that are going to be that rest is important it's not a substitute for for work it's gonna help you work better yes you you know you've been banging that drum around the world for a few years now do you think people are starting to get it I think people are starting to get it can you talked about you know the the sort of you know the idea of overwork is a badge of honor right I mean how common is that these days but you know they're all so big you know big structural things that keep us at the office that you know that command our attention and I think one of the things that we're beginning to realize is how powerful like changes within organizations can be in encouraging that kind of tech free time or time for reflection you know whether it's something you know something small like the imposition of no email evenings or whether it's something big like redesigning the entire workday right so so there are so there are times when people you know can completely focus on their work without having to check their email be distracted by slack or or other things and actually having tech free lunches together where you know you've got you know where instead of you know talking with people for like two minutes around the water cooler you actually make time to have serious conversations with you know with your colleagues and that turns out to be an incredibly powerful and valuable thing both for the happiness of individuals but also you know for the performance of companies as well and so all of this stuff turns out to be beneficial for you know for people's mental health for their physical health for their performance as you know as economic agents and workers but also as you know parents and partners and it also helps I think families but all you know and companies and organizations as well how did you start getting interested in this quite revolutionary idea of the four-day workweek yeah because you know I've been thinking about this throughout the morning before before we got together let's think about you know Alice has having to make the case for why a four hour is not for how were we a four-day workweek is so beneficial there should be the next book that should be that one yes exactly I think Tim Ferriss did that one what's the 4-hour workweek which is a great book actually because for me it's not actually about working four hours a week it's about understanding that time is a precious commodity and how you spend that time right it's important so that's so that's what I got from that book but you're trying to make you're making a very strong case in it about why 4-day workweeks should be considered mm-hmm what I want to flip it a little bit and go when we're living in a culture where the World Health Organization are calling stress the health epidemic of the 21st century when burnout is you know going up year on year when most people these days are feeling that just chronic state of overwhelm instead of making the case for the four-day work we do we almost need to make the case for the five-day we can actually you know at what point have we proved that the way we've currently got many jobs set up in you know why don't we ever prove that that's an optimum way to set a workplace up for productivity or for human health hmm you know the five-day workweek is an artifact of the industrial 20th century right it was and it was something that unions and reformers fought for for decades all right the Chartists and what the 1830s and 1840s were talking about eight hours for work eight hours for sleep eight hours for what you will and they were actually talked out I think about a six-day week but you know the five-day week is something that gets worked out in the 1900s you know the 1920s and we just sort of stuck with it and like many things you turns into this default that you never question now the reason that I started questioning it actually was when I was promoting rest I would get questions along the lines of okay so you know what does a single mother do in order to get more rest right what tips and tricks do you have for them and at a certain point I realized that the answer you know the answer was not do this do that certainly the answer was not have another middle-aged guy tell you what you're doing wrong in your life but rather you know the answer was that look you know working moms parents and to some degree all of us live in a world that expect us to raise kids as if we don't have careers you know pursue our careers as if we don't have children to do both to some impossibly high standard and then to put the blame on us individually when we don't live up to those standards right we don't need tips and tricks in order to do to do you know sort of to solve these problems you don't need to be supermom what you need are structural changes that don't expect you to do both of these things simultaneously and you know you look at things like the problems that we have with burnout with you know sort of with chronic stress you know health issues in the workplace depression work-life balance turns out I mean one of the reasons I wrote this book was that the four-day week is a wonderfully elegant way of attacking all of those things at once right you know whether it is mental health in the workplace whether it's the enduring problems of flexible careers or of you know or of encouraging encouraging and promoting women into executive positions allowing parents to continue to have good careers once their what once their parents it turns out that you know we've approached these problems with like different strategies and sort of different company policies but turns out shortening the workweek offers a way of dealing with all of them and it is if it's incredibly simple I think it's pretty effective and it's and it is available to a wider range of you know kinds of businesses than we might expect and I'm seeing it unfolding in more parts of the world then you know I expected when I started working on it two of the countries that are that have the most places that are experimenting with it are Korea and Japan all right places places in which overwork is such a big thing that they've been then that you know Korean and Japanese languages have their own words for working yourself to death and that says it all doesn't it exactly right you know when you need when you need to change language in order to reflect that reality you know that you've got a serious problem on your hands but you know in those places you've got companies that are as big as like a couple thousand people who have moved to you know four day weeks or six hour days and not only has you know profitability not gone down it's actually skyrocketed these companies have done really really well so you're saying that by working less things in just stay still profits productivity went up right so this is an alien concept for many people how can you possibly work less right but gain more right the simple answer is that you know if you look at the way in which which many of us work or many of us have to work our days are filled with distractions interruptions you know poor meetings not very good project management crashed schedules once you can get a handle on those things I mean it turns out that stuff wastes something like two hours of productive time every day according to some studies so if you can get a handle on that stuff all of a sudden you're a lot closer to being able to you know to do five days work in four just by like clearing away that well but if we think about that on a you know on a 40-hour work week five days a week so if we're losing two hours a day because we're not being productive that's ten hours a week that's 25% off that you know in adverse Acamas working week where we're not really working so you know I guess we could even go further back from a four-day week potentially it's it's incredible that and it's not to do with technology is out to do with us get a bit bored at work and going onto Facebook and Instagram or what is that I think yeah technology is part of it definitely you know we are the we are being humans as distractible at work especially if we're not working on something that's totally compelling to us I think also the fact that you know in a world in which we don't have such clear boundaries it's easier to feel like you know you if the school calls or if you get you know or the you know an email from your doctor it's okay to deal with that at work and sometimes you know it is absolutely it really is necessary to do to deal with those things immediately but the fact that you've got this kind of interference between work stuff and personal stuff means that it is you know that does that does hit your productivity and then I think that if most of us have experienced lots of meetings aren't terribly well run there were too many people in them they kind of go on too long and but you know this is but we've accepted that this is the way that meetings work and so just by doing these relatively simple things right not accepting the default that the software imposes of a meeting being an hour long but making meetings 15 or 20 minutes long getting rid of the standing you know daily 9:00 a.m. you know 9:00 a.m. thing that kind of doesn't start your day necessarily sort of on the at the you know with that sort of highest energy using technology a little bit more mindfully and also creating times of day where it actually is okay you know to tell people who you know just have one quick question that's gonna turn into 15 minutes you know go away I'm gonna finish this thing all of that stuff together turns out to make it yet to take you a long way to being able to work more effectively you know get more done in a shorter period of time and to allow you to do you know in four days what you know you you used to need to do in five I think once you start doing the maths on this with some of the statistics you're giving I think is probably very clear very quickly that this may well be the way to go for many companies if not all companies you know you mentioned meetings and you know my own career has changed quite a lot in the last year's so I started off training spear National Health Service daughter which is what I have done for the bulk of my time for the for most of my career but it's pivoted in the last years whereas I still see patients but I'm also an author now a podcast host you know why I go and speak to companies and you know I love on a personal level what my job is now there's a huge amount of variety and it certainly makes me happy doing what I do but in terms of meetings that's something I've really reduced like I I've realized actually a lot of people would constantly sell we should get together and have a chat about things and talk about ways to collaborate and in the past you know the people-pleasing part of me but yeah sure let's go do that and you think you know you're doing all these meetings you're not getting actually your own work done and you're not actually getting any getting anywhere so now it's case ok well email me with your ideas or email my PA with your white is and if there's something there maybe we'll proceed on email so that's my own strategy that I saw to adopt to try and address some of this yeah but on the topic of the email how much of a work suck and a Productivity suck is email it well you know it is now inextricable with most of our work so going to zero is or is impossible for most of us but you know just the amount of let's just take two things and one is the amount of time that is lost to the distraction of email even if even if it's an important message right once you get into flow working on something you get interrupted by a message and just reading it will or take you out of what you were doing and it can take a good 15 minutes or so to get back into that state where you're really focused again on something now we are interrupted by email or other things on an average of 11 minutes and so it's you know you want I think they'll be more you know I know you know but you know we all have that experience of ending the day and wondering why don't I get done and part of the reason that you know we have these days is that we have these you know this constant barrage of interruption that unless once again you make a conscious choice about setting boundaries around can really destroy your attention and destroy your day but I think you know the other important you know I think the other important thing that you know your experience suggests and that and that I see in the book is that there's really important like social dimension to these issues we often think of attention and focus distraction as things that happened between like our eyes and brains and a screen but you know my capacity to focus at work depends on other people's ability to respect my attention right and our ability altogether to work in ways that let us really be effective it's a bit like you know going to the movie theater and you know you have this you know everybody has this thing that we're supposed to pay attention to not our phones certainly not phone conversations and you you know you work together so that you can focus on you know focus on what's happening you know happening sort of up on stage and I think being a you know recognizing that there is this important social dimension to all of these things is one of the keys I think to dealing with them really effectively I love the way that you're pitching this is a societal and structural issue because I think it really takes the pressure off the individual I mean you're touching that already you know it's not not necessarily what can I do individually to get more deep play in my life although that can of course have some marriage but really what you're talking about is restructuring Society and it's hard for me not to fast forward a few years and think well the research you present in shorter is really compelling the stories are really compelling is I mean do you anticipate a point in the near future where you can almost say companies have a moral responsibility to implement working practices like the four-day work week for the health of their employees for the health of the country for the kids you know social cohesion but also on a business level so they can be more productive you know I think whether they do it for business reasons or for moral reasons they see benefits right these companies talk about a sort of work-life balance scores going way up people people are healthier because they have more time to do things like you know whether it's go to the doctor or train for a marathon or go to the gym they also are healthier because they have more time with their families and of course you know we all know that you know time with other people is an important thing in keeping us keeping us sane but also keeping us physically healthy and so I think that the I love the idea that there is you know that in a sense we should treat we should treat attention we should treat kind of mental health in same way that we aren't that companies are now learning to treat you know environmental concerns right as something that is important yes it's important order for economic reasons but it's also you know important for moral reasons as well I would love to get to that point and I think probably sooner rather than later we will you know when you start thinking about it and when you come at it from that position I think thinking of you know thinking of organizations thinking of workplaces as places that can do good things for people's health that can be redesigned in ways to make them healthier you know and not just about adding plants or healthy snacks which you know are great things and which actually a bunch of these companies do but you know redesigning the way in which people work so that people can be healthier is if they were clear there would be tremendous public health benefits to that it sounds like it's a philosophy that's more in tune with the population of the 21st century so what I mean by that is you know we read lots of these articles that Millennials are now seeking jobs that give them purpose and passion rather than just what's the salary gonna be like what's a career progression gonna be like which is certainly a change from twenty thirty years ago instead of how a lot of people choose their jobs and I guess a natural consequence of that might be if we're trying to do a job that we're passionate about that's gonna make an impact on the world's well we can't do that if we're burning out and actually we've got no time to enjoy the benefits of a happier healthier society so it kind of feels as though this is a movement that could very rapidly grow particularly with great books like yours to contribute to that conversation yeah I mean have you seen particular types of works particular types of companies more receptive than others to this kind of thinking I have been impressed at the range of industries in which the four-day week has been implemented I mean it literally is everything from software startups to car dealerships to repair shops to there's a steel maker and in Birmingham who makes bulky bowls that works you know a four-day week now and so you know it's not just like it's not just creatives it's also not industries where you know people are looking for a totally laid-back lifestyle you know no one goes into software because it's gonna be you know an easy life yeah and I mean I think that what they do all share are people at the top who really feel the necessity of this right who you know have had that experience you know that brush with burnout that we talked about earlier having people having a workforce that is willing to take a kind of growth mindset to be kind of experimental who often maybe are themselves parents and have enough experience in their jobs to be able to say you know we've been doing it this way for the last ten years here's how we can do it better right here's what's broken in the system yeah and I know enough now so if I think I can fix it when you've got those things it you know everything else becomes just a matter of like scheduling and logistics whether you are you know whether you're creatives whether you're making things whether you're salaried or hourly I think that you know or a kind of culture is upstream of all of this yeah there's lots of employers who listen to this podcast you match car dealers I know there's one very very hot card car dealer in the UK who's boss and team listens to this podcast but there's also many HR departments who listen and for those of them who are think okay alright I like what you're saying Alex I can see the benefits but I've got no clue where to start how would I bring that into my workplace what would you say to them you know so for offices the first place to start is meetings right you know nobody loves meetings generally in most places meetings aren't aren't terribly well-run and so getting a handle on them making them shorter is a way both of clearing out a bunch of time in the sort of in people's schedules it's also a way of um it's an easy win because it fixes an enduring problem that everyone is aware of and yet tends tends to go unrepaired it also then sets up the question all right if we can fix this what else can we fix right sort of you know you've lived what you lived with bad meetings your entire career and yet if it turns out in a few weeks that you can get control of them maybe there's other stuff that you can deal with and then finally the other important thing is the social dimension right you know you get twenty people in a meeting for an hour that's you know that's 20 person hours that's like you know half a week of one person's time it's really easy to underestimate you know just how many human hours get absorbed in meetings and once you until you start to reduce them and use and you realise good heavens you know every meeting turns out to be really expensive and I think what you're talking about is I don't we touched on this with Tim Ferriss book before but it's all coming back to this idea that time is a precious commodity it's a non-renewable commodity what do we use that time for we ain't getting it back right when it's gone and I guess you know in essence your argument is also that if you're working work mm-hmm be productive at that work and when you're resting west yeah but don't try and mix and match it all because then you don't do either one particularly well right you know one of the things in both rest and shorter that I learned from the people I studied and talked to is that focused periods of intensive work beat long semi distracted hours every time yeah right you know you can more done in four hours where no one bothers you then you can in 12 where you know you're kind of switching in and out I mean dealing with different things 100% and I'm interested to you how that played out as an author mm-hmm I'm gonna share with you how it plays out with me as an author so when you're writing how do you get your writing done because I saw you a teach opposite you do other things as well yeah so what I do is I get up super early so when I'm working on a book I'm up generally by about five or so put in a couple hours take out the dogs come back write some more and usually in that walk I'm turning over ideas and I realized wait you know if I do this do this transition this way it solves this problem right so that's a kind of creative time for me by about nine or ten or so the biggest part of the writing day for me is done and you know and I do this even though I am absolutely not a morning person right I am someone who in college started homework like at 10 o'clock at night all the time and but you know when you've got kids when you got a job do you have kids I do I have two ones in college one's about to go off okay so and but you know when you've got those kinds of demands and when you've got you know the constant lure of Facebook and LinkedIn and Twitter and other stuff you got to find a time when when you can work undisturbed and for me the super early hours are valuable partly because no one else is up if I'm gonna you know if I'm gonna do this to myself I'm not gonna waste time like on social media yeah I'm actually gonna do something with that time and you know and then the rest of the day I do everything else I talk about in rest I'm a huge fan of naps you know I walk a lot and doing all those things I've been a you know my first my first academic book took ten years to write doing all that you know and I was like you know you know and that kind of constant state of sort of overload and you know thinking that you know this was simply the way that unruly genius operated right working the way that I described in rest in this in ten years I've been able to finish three books yeah I think the results speak for themselves yeah a hundred percent I can't say how many of the things you do are the things that I do particularly when writing so like you I'm juggling many things too young kiss mantra but younger than yours nine and seven at the moments you know seeing patients all kinds of other things that I've got going on like many people do these days I'm not saying I am vertically unique everyone feels that they're busy and they've got lots and lots of different things to do when I am writing while I'm in those months where actually I know I need to write and I need to deliver something I wake up early now I wake up early most days anyway I am a morning person sometimes go to 4:30 when I'm writing but I know if I get a half for till half a window whenever writing or a 5 a.m. Thanh Nien am writing I get so much more done than that if I start it let's say at 9:00 9:00 a.m. and I tried to sort of plow through for the entire day I never ever be three or four hours of intense work in the morning and so when I'm in Whiting mode and I know you know having you know written three books in three years I've really had to refine my process so that I can actually spend time with my family you know spend the time seeing my patients you know spend time on myself and my own hobbies I've had to get really good at how I use time and I know that that morning type for me is peak creativity I just don't want to be contacted in the day by many people so I try not to go on email I try not to talk to people who helped me in my team or anything because it's I know that I need to you know protect my mental space so that I can deliver what I'm trying to do at the moments right and I guess you know not everyone listen to this as an author but they will have something in their life that's important to get done and I guess what you're also saying or all the follow-on sort of idea from your work is that we got to find out what works for us on an individual level as well as a structural level we've got a fighter trying to figure out actually one why don't we particularly good at working when are we good at just sort of closing things off and not doing any work it's yeah it's I think it has real value this no I think that for me it took two or three weeks right to really understand how mornings work and I have certain practices right and one important one is actually I set up everything I possibly can the night before okay because I don't want to have to make a single decision at 5:00 in the morning like what to wear you know where what I'm gonna work on so the night before I will outline the writing tasks for the next day you know I set up breakfast I set out the clothes that I'm gonna wear and so I can just operate on automatic until the time when I flip up the screen and I start work the great thing about that is that you know I'm not spending any energy making decisions other than what the next words are yeah it's also important because it's a sort of sort of self blackmail right you know if I'm gonna go to the work the night before of setting stuff up I'm a lot less likely to rationalize like sleeping in right I'm kind of making my future self or to commit to this and also you know when you do that really interestingly setting up setting up questions that you sleep on makes it more likely that you'll actually answer them you know you're kind of your mind turns things over even while you're asleep John Cleese had a wonderful line about how when he first started you know writing comedy sketches that he would get stuck on something at night and you'd go to sleep in the next morning not only would he have the answer he couldn't even remember why he was stuck yeah and that you know it sounds mysterious but you give your mind practice you let it work on this and it learns how to do it and it is you know it is utterly miraculous yeah this is under you your new responses as well and I can't learn what that state of consciousness is called just as you're falling to sleep right but I have a gadget state exactly yeah and why don't you tell us about that so right it's it's essentially you know those moments in between in between wakefulness and sleep where you know you are it's those moments when you know you're often you're it's a little bit like dreaming yeah except you're often or of dealing with you you're you're you're sometimes thinking about stuff that you know you're kind of turning over things from the day or thinking about ideas or problems and every now and then in those states you know we have these experiences of you know having ideas come to mind yeah and it's you know it's a it's an illustration of how you know how our creative a kind of creative minds are capable of doing things kind of without our conscious effort and without our force and you know one of the great things with deliberate rest that deliberate rest offers is a space for your head of creative subconscious to work on problems that have eluded your own solution and whether it's you know little things like how to handle these paragraph transitions where sometimes some very big ideas you know people there were you know some famous cases of mathematicians and scientists you know working for years on problems getting stuck you know putting them down and then a few weeks later while they're on a you know sort of at the beach or about to get on a train all of a sudden the answer comes to no it comes to their mind when you give your brain the downtime precisely not when your constant rying to be productive working more exactly you know and how valuable is that if you are in a creative industry if you're a leader who has to be thinking about next year's products who has to be you know trying to make sense of global trends you know thinking about you know what while you know what things just over the horizon could be a real opportunity or a real problem it's really difficult to think about that stuff just when you're at your desk dealing with you know the everyday and answering emails one of the great you know and being able to do stuff like get out on your bike or work in the garden on that you know maybe that fifth day yeah is amazingly valuable for these company leaders and for the band for the people who work for them yeah I mean I love that idea you know mulling things over at night so you wake up with the solution and it's something that I very much try and do in my own life I'm very I'm very attentive to what I'm doing in those 10 or 20 minutes just before I fall asleep I often recommend people I think one of the worst in chica news watch the news before you go to beds I think you wake up for the anxieties and worries often impacts your sleep I think for me if I'm trying to solve a problem again you got to be careful you don't want it to be too stimulating where I actually it stops you from sleeping but there's a few ideas I'm mulling around I'll often think about them or read about them just before I go to bed and set myself up for that morning burst of creativity exactly you know what are the other things that I do is stop writing in mid-sentence because you know I don't reach the end of a section or you know even the end of a paragraph because partly it is you know it's easier it's easier to start writing if you don't have the existential terror of the blank page facing you as a writing exercise picking up where you left off just makes things a little bit easier but it also means that your mind continues working on the rest of that paragraph and then the next one and the next one even while you know you are thinking about other things you see you leave unfinished so that your brains trying to complete it a little bit and actually yeah I like that exactly and there were and and you know I cannot I cannot take credit for this you know Stephen King and Ernest Hemingway talk about doing this yeah so but you know worked for them well exactly exactly and if we delve into the neuron a little bit off deliberate arrest I mean what happens when we you know are switching off and a fully immersed in that passion you know going for a hike or playing a musical instruments or going for a wall what what is going on in our brains that gives us all these benefits right you know there's been a bunch of work in the last 20 years in neuroscience and the psychology of creativity that's helped open up our understanding of of what's going on in the creative mind in particular in those periods where it feels like we're not in conscious control of sort of these processes or when our attention is elsewhere so the first thing is that you when you kind of switch off your attention it sort of feels like your brain sort of shuts down but it actually doesn't right you know your brain is actually every bit as active as it is when you are thinking hard about something it's just that sort of the connectome the parts of the brain that are talking to each other are different and in particular the parts of the brain that are associated with more creative activity as opposed to kind of just straight on problem solving are sort of are more connected and more active so you know in a sense what the brain does is switch into a mode where it's ready to solve problems on your behalf now sometimes we have the kind of low-level experience of this brain working on our behalf almost every day right you know when you think you know when you're trying to remember who is the musician who was in that band and then had that single and you can't remember who they were and then five minutes later you're doing the dishes and all of a sudden they come to mind that's the default mode Network that's those those brain connections opera continuing to work on that problem even while you've gone on to do something else now in the daily schedules of highly creative people what you see them doing is layering periods of really intensive work with peer with these periods of deliberate rest these activities like walking or gardening or you know going for a swim other activities that are not very cognitively demanding but which you know get them out of the office and which give their creative minds time to keep working to keep turning over these you know problems that they were just thinking about thinking hard about thirty minutes ago and when you kind of load up your creative mind with that sort of with those with those outstanding problems it kind of likes to keep working on them and if it has the space to do so at the end of that you by the end of that swim or that hike it's likely to have made some progress and you know I think that you know we think of because we think of creative work and other kinds of work as involving willpower you know expenditure of effort we tend to shortchange how powerful that other part of our brains can be other part of our minds but if we give them give it the space to operate if we practice the liver at rest not only do we recover the energy that we spend in those highly intensive focus periods when you can actually get you know there's plenty of substantive stuff that you can get done when you're you know when you're concentrating there's no question about that but there's also creative stuff that you can come up with that you might never if you didn't take that time if you didn't have that practice and so you know that's that you know that for me for you know someone who loves writing who loves you know solving the problems that you know that that writing books involves you know having having the practice that helps me you know helps me create create better work that helps me see the world a little better is you know that's like that's worth organizing my entire day and my wife around yeah it's it's this whole cultural idea that more is better doing doing doing is what gets you ahead was really seeing this resurgence aren't we in terms of the importance of sleep the importance of rest the importance of deep play you know really starting to understand I think more and more it needs to get out there much more than it currently is but little by little trying to get the idea out there that actually less can be more where they're actually not doing something can be beneficial can have multiple benefits rather than looking at what you're missing out on we need to start framing it as what we're gaining from doing that but I do wonder whether there is a big education piece here that needs to happen societally and the example that comes to mind for me is in the recent general election in the UK if my memory serves me correctly Jeremy Corbyn who was the opposition leader he or his department or his party at some point I think had hypothesized that public sector workers at some point in the future would move to four day weeks or they were looking into it and I was super interested by that but he was actually belittled in the media but by many people in the media say oh this is just more but it is and I'm not but I'm not making a political argument either way I'm simply saying that I think that that whole idea as a concept is one that has value and it's one that we should be looking at seriously individually on a company level but also politically in that sense of how we structure our working systems but I didn't see it get any traction because people thought it was another reason to sort of hammer him down with right and I think does this whole idea have a bit of a PR problem does it needs I know you're addressing that with your book but do we need to really get the messages in your book out there to politicians to policymakers to say look there is a strong case here for doing this this is not slacking off this is actually going to be beneficial for the economy right you know I think with a you know the last election the opposition was really effective at hammering hammering the idea that the four-day week was you know was gonna require another money tree that you know and that it basically was another giveaway and but if you look at the companies that are doing it you know it's a very different kind of proposition right it is you know it's not about working less it's you know it's it's not a way you know it's not a way of punishing capitalists um it is a way of making businesses more productive more sustainable and making people happier you know I think that if you were if you were making the case to shareholders or to investors you know I think you would who were reluctant and who were so accustomed to the idea that you make more money by making people work longer hours or by you know reducing what Walmart calls time theft you know stuff like going to the bathroom time theft time theft yes it's how I see you it's not yes not working is time theft right think about think about what that means for the way you know you think about how life should be lived and how the time should be spent but you know I think the sort of the way that you would I think the way to to make the larger argument is first of all that the shorter work week has demonstrated benefits in terms of recruitment and retention productivity and profitability work-life balance and talent development if you can tell me which one of those things you don't like as an investor or shareholder we can talk about making adjustments but I think you know once you see the numbers that most you know most people who pride themselves on making you know smart investment decisions or being rational economic actors will see yeah it looks counterintuitive at first but because you do all these other things in order to make the four-day week work yeah all right this makes sense at another level I think that the you know one of the there is a kind of cultural change that these companies have to go through and thinking in moving away from the idea that overwork is like a sign of productivity or it's a sign of virtue as what and these are you know these are all companies where long hours of the norm right in the restaurant industry people work you know fifteen hour days for weeks on end these are cultures where you know overwork as a mark of virtue as a kind of necessary step for success is just like built into the DNA of these professions and one of you know this is one of the founders put it it took us a while to get to the point where you know we realized actually anyone can sit in a chair for 12 hours a day that's not the hard thing the hard thing is the impressive thing is being able to do your work in six hours and you know and knock it out and get out of there that you know for so long we've treated we've treated long hours as a kind of proxy for commitment as a proxy for dedication for passion for productivity and it turns out these companies show that that is you know that's exactly backwards the people who are really good at their jobs are not the people who need huge amounts of time to do them they're people who are capable of really focusing in on what's important on identifying you know where the key parts of the problem the sort of you know the most effective way to solve them and then actually go about doing that that's you know that's what we should value that's what these companies value yeah and you've got ways of really nice cases in the book about companies I think there's one that's a restaurant actually which did make that change and managed to do it yes but one thing I just wanted to think about is is there a danger that if a company moves to a four-day work week that's they push their employees really really hard on those they say yeah you can have you time off but I'm gonna work you into the grounds for those six hours a day whilst you are there have you seen any evidence of adisyl um it is a more intense day definitely but I think that and there are stories of you know one or two people at a company who will quit rather than make the changes that they need to in order to to you know to to make that work for them but I think the the the two things that kind of counterbalance that intensity are first off the fact that in all of these companies the workers themselves figure out how to make the four-day week work right the change starts at the top you need a FET right now you need a founder or CEO who says we're gonna do this and you know we're gonna do these experiments some of these things are gonna fail but we're gonna figure it out but nobody at the top knows everyone's job well enough to figure out which parts they can take out which parts you can automate which parts you know are actually incredibly valuable that you want to be able to preserve for yourself and focus on so the actual kind of redesign of the work is done by people themselves and most people turn out to be fairly good judges of you know of or of what they need to do you know where they need to focus the other thing is that you that one of the reasons you give people an extra day off or you know you close the office at 3:00 if you're doing a six hour day is that yeah the work is more tiring but it's more tiring in the way that you know finishing a marathon is tiring as opposed to being in you know unproductive meet you know unproductive frustrating meetings for 10 hours is tiring both of those you know both of those things take a lot of energy but you feel really really different at the end it's productive fatigue exactly yes so you know I think that um you know so at least you know so far the the indicator is that yeah people actually you know you do work harder it's a little more like high-intensity training you know in the gym but you know it turns out that the set that's you know the extra recovery time the feeling that you are more in control of your own job that you have more time to work effectively even though you're working fewer days and there were a couple companies have have done surveys where they asked people do you have enough time to do to do your work and actually the percentage of people who say yes goes up when they go to four day weeks which yeah an extraordinary thing right it's an it's a great it's a beautiful indicator of the subjectivity of time but also how much time normal companies turn out to waste all and I think the fact that you know you are doing this with other people right you're having the experience often sometimes fairly intense experience of you know all of you redesigning the work so that you can all share this common benefit you know that's hard but it's worthwhile hard yeah and that is extra benefits doesn't it you know it's something we've spoken about on this podcast many times before about how important that human social connection is yeah how important is to feel as though you've got some control over how your life how your day goes down exactly which is what you're sort of suggesting have come if if some1 senior it comes says okay let's try and do this and then actually includes the team saying hey what you guys want to put up save what do you think is about if a time suck you know and the more people who are invested in that together the the better you feel individually but also collectively yeah you know one founder said that you know all of my employees now act like they own the company and all I did was give them a day off it's an that is as a company owner that is exactly how you want people it has a hey've I mean it's win-win-win or round this isn't it it's just the case of persuading people to give it a go I gasps you know we could go into the weeds on every single industry of course some industries might find it more challenging than others but either no fundamentally you're talking about how'd you do productive work when you're working and how do you sort of balance that with doing productive resting when you're resting I've already said it but it really is that profound for me that that's what we're fundamentally talking about but else what would you say you know my company is many people are self-employed these days so if there's a freelancer or some a self-employed listening to this right now who likes your ideas and buys into them I guess yeah I can see that can you give them any tips on what they can apply from this kind of systemic structural change in a company but what they can do individually as a freelancer okay you know I think one thing is recognize that these problems aren't individual ones right that they are collective ones and that you know you're yep every change we make in terms of being more mindful of our attention of how we use technology of you know how we how we run meetings is a potential gift to someone else these companies you know all of them worry at the beginning that clients are gonna hate this and it turns out clients are universally supportive because they are solving problems that the clients also have Yeah right you know if and it's one thing to hear about some place in Sweden doing it but if it's a company that you know you've worked with for years that understands your culture and you understand then the lessons from there feel like they're a little more transferable but to get back to what individuals can do I mean I think that you know recognizing recognizing that that social dimension is one thing but I think that on a daily basis you know if there is one if there's one serious place in which to begin I think it's recognizing that you know that work and rest are not competitors but rather they are partners for all of the reasons that's that we've talked about and that structuring a day in which you start with you know your biggest most significant tasks right you clear away time in your schedule to work uninterrupted on that kind of creates us if not only helps you be more productive it also creates a space for rest there's this great you know the saying in the US Marine Corps you know the rest you get is the rest you earn right you know when you're when you're when you're training you've got a certain amount of time to complete a task and then a you know a finite amount of time before the next task starts the fast you know the fence so the faster you can get through one challenge the more time you have to sleep before the next one and I think for all of us one of the ways to justify getting more rest is structuring our days so that if you get what you know if you get some of that big stuff done first it's a lot easier to say yeah I can take a nap or you know I can take that walk I think recognizing that layering that kind of focused work and deliberate rest also has creative benefits as well as health benefits is you know is a good thing for order of solo performers and then I think finally you know recognizing how how much technology is both woven into our daily work and can absorb and direct our time and direct our attention if we do not consciously manage those things ourselves is you know the other great challenge for knowledge workers in the 21st century all right these devices do a fantastic job of making choices for us when we don't make them ourselves and they generally don't make choices on our behalf yet right they make them on the behalf of their makers or advertisers or you know or of companies who are interested in us as data and so you know taking control taking control of our kind of digital lives and our device lives is the other really essential thing I think that you do in order to carve out space both for better work and for better rest one of the biggest sources of distraction is a smart fence so what is your best tip for how we can better manage our smartphones okay you know in their sort of default State smartphones are like toddlers you know every their everything is equally interesting they want to share stuff with you right now and if you don't respond to them it's a disaster and so you know I think of it as you know let's let's help our smartphones grow up a little bit let's let them be a little more thoughtful about when they demand our attention and help them understand what we consider to be important and so what I've done is you know I turn off all the notifications for news and other things sort of just completely zero that out and then for phone calls and for texts I follow something that I call the zombie apocalypse test which is in the zombie apocalypse who do you need to be able to call and for me it is basic you know it's immediate family right my wife my kids a couple other people and those people I give one ringtone just the opening bars of Derek and the Dominos Laila oh yeah why cuz no matter where I am no matter what's going on what background noise there is that's gonna cut through I'm gonna hear that and I'm I'm gonna know oh it's my wife or my kids everybody else in my contacts list and the world at large gets the opening bars of a yo-yo ma solo Bach concerto because that kind of you know if it if it comes on while I'm doing something it's easy to ignore it's easy to make basically it's easy to make a decision about whether I want to shift my attention to the phone or whether I want to keep working on this other thing and so I think that you know by doing that my phone goes from being something whose purpose is to interrupt me according to you know whatever rules it wants or according to someone else's preferences and it becomes a little bit more like you know an assistant who you know who knows who you're gonna want to hear from you know who knows if you're in the middle of a meeting they should interrupt you and knows how to say no to everybody else so that's so you know turn off notifications think about the zombie apocalypse test choose the piece of music that you're all that you know is gonna cut through everything and you know have a happier life I love it I love it and you're using technology and you're you know you're sort of playing with it a little bit make your work for you ROM and work against you now that's a brilliant set I think a lot of people could do with applying those in their own life I'm have their different ringtone that's interesting something I could possibly put in I'd see why wave although I've gotta say my phone is often on silent so I miss cause that's the other strategy but I look this podcast is called feel better live more when we feel better in our lives we get more out of them out of all the research you've done and of all the books you've written what is your one tip that my listeners can start applying into their everyday lives to improve the way that they feel the simplest things that I would suggest would be yet everyone should take their evenings in their weekend's more seriously by which I mean you know take them as yours if there's a you know that the research tells us that whether you are in a creative field or in you know a high intensity occupation that you know you are less likely to burn out you are more likely to have a happy life and more likely to be you know better at home and at work if you are able to detach from work when you're off the job and I think that you it is it is fashionable these days to think about work and the boundaries between work and life having dissolved as a kind of cool thing there actually is a use to those boundaries and I think that that recalled that appreciating their value and and respecting them when we are both when we are at work and just as importantly when we're out is it turns out to have benefits for us both in the immediate term and in the long run you know over the course of decades if you you know if you take your vacations if you have a hobby that interests you that engages you on the weekends you know not only you know you're you are likely later in life to be healthier you know you're more you are less likely to have chronic illnesses dementia now you will be that you will be more likely to be the person you want to be then you know if you if you over you know if you overwork if you allow email to be the last thing you see it might and the first thing that you see in the morning just having those boundaries and allowing yourself to have that time is the simplest thing I think that we can do and in some ways the single most powerful thing that we can do yeah Alex I love that thank you so much for sparing some of your time today I wish you all the best for the rest of your time in London we're actually both speaking on the same stage tomorrow Oh life lessons at the Barbican so I think I might just before you so we will no doubt see each other in the green room tomorrow at the Barbican but Alex you've written some great books I really would recommend them to people listening to this or watching this on YouTube thank you so much and hopefully we can continue this conversation at some point in the future great now this has been a real pleasure so thanks very much press subscribe to get more inspiration and ideas on how to feel better so you can get more out of life and if you have a moment why not check out this conversation that I've picked out as a perfect follower remember lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better you've lived more

Channel: Dr Rangan Chatterjee

Views: 10,135

Rating: 4.8743458 out of 5

Keywords: The Four Pillar Plan, NHS, GP, Four Pillar Plan, lifestyle medicine, the stress solution, feel better in 5, feel better live more, fblm, health, paleo, wellness, drchatterjee, rangan chatterjee, how to make disease disappear, low carb, vegan, keto, podcast, apple podcast, obesity, type 2 diabetes, joe rogan, sleep, jay shetty, health advice, richroll, therichrollpodcast, new normal, 4 day week, working week, productivity, creativity, work-life balance, leisure time, play, active rest, rest

Id: 3eWvlvOysiU

Length: 87min 3sec (5223 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 24 2020