How to Share Christ with LGBTQ People | Guest: Becket Cook | Ep 582

hey guys welcome to relatable happy tuesday this episode is brought to you by our friends at good ranchers go to goodranchers.com ally that's goodranchers.com ally [Music] all right guys we've got a very fun show for you today we are talking to beckett cook he is the host of the beckett cook show he wrote a book called a change in affection a few years ago and that is about his conversion to christianity and going from an actively gay lifestyle uh to now an obedient christian lifestyle and so we're going to talk about that i'm sure that there's plenty in the conversation that some people will find very controversial but for the majority of my audience you are just going to be incredibly encouraged the power and the grace of god in redeeming people's lives i just love hearing people's testimony there is such power in a testimony and it just reminds you of the sweetness and the goodness of the gospel the faithfulness of god the relentlessness of god to pursue whomever he is going to pursue in whatever ways he is going to pursue them i love that about god and i love hearing individual stories of that redemption in their own lives and so you're going to be so encouraged and then we're also going to ask him some questions towards the end of the conversation we're going to ask him okay do you attend the gay wedding of a friend as a christian do you use preferred pronouns as a christian what about that verse in first corinthians that says that we're not even supposed to associate with someone who calls themselves a christian and is sexually immoral in any way or who is an idolater it lists a whole host of sins what does that actually look like do we exclude them from our lives how do we love these people in a way that is truthful but also gracious we're going to get into all of that um and before we do i do want to say that yesterday i was in louisiana go listen to yesterday's episode that we had already had pre-recorded with a professor um you're going to love it you're going to absolutely love yesterday's conversation if you haven't listened to it another possibly controversial conversation because we talk about race in america and we talk about the claim of systemic racism and he has some um non-mainstream views about that that are very interesting and i know you're going to learn a lot from it but yesterday we were in louisiana i went to monroe louisiana and i was on the unashamed podcast with phil robertson and with al robertson and you're going to love that episode whenever it comes out i don't know when it's going to come out but then also i interviewed them for my show that episode will come out at a later day but i just love them so much i know a lot of you guys love them um i posted yesterday on instagram that i was going to louisiana a lot of you were asking me what i was doing in your state i was there very quickly flew there yesterday morning and then guys my flight got canceled i got to the airport and my flight home got canceled and i had to drive home last night and that was kind of crazy but i'm here i'm safe and sound to bring this content to you today so um yeah lots to look forward to lots to look forward to in ali land for different interviews coming out but let's get to this interview without further ado here is our new friend beckett cook [Music] beckett thank you so much for joining us i've been wanting to have you on for a really long time so i'm so glad this worked out can you tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do thank you ali um yeah i i live in los angeles that's where i am right now and um i i for many many years i was a production designer in hollywood but my when my book came out in 2019 i kind of lost i kind of got cancelled in hollywood yeah because my book is pretty scandalous so uh that's that's so so now i'm i'm pretty much in full-time ministry uh i kind of travel around the country speak at conferences at churches and i'm writing another book and i also have a youtube show called the becca cook show so that all keeps me pretty busy yeah and i you know i went to seminary in 2014 to at talbot school of theology at biola so i knew god was kind of pulling me out of the production design world and into more kind of full-time ministries so that's so that's where i am now and for people who have no idea they're coming into this just having heard of beckett cook what was your book about why was it so scandalous scandal so it's called a change of affection and my affections dramatically changed 12 years ago so when i was when i was very young i don't know in elementary school probably fifth or sixth grade i started to to realize that i was attracted to the same sex which was a really strange phenomenon to happen when you're a kid in dallas texas when it's very much taboo to be gay or even to have those feelings and so i i kind of wrestled with that and sort of had this like external life where i was friends and and popular with people in school but then on the inside i was dealing with this kind of struggle and didn't really know how to process it and then in high school that's when kind of the dam broke because i ended up becoming best friends with someone who at jesuit who was uh going through the same thing and we started going out in dallas to gay bar i mean i was like 14 and 15 years old going to gay bars wow in cedar springs oakland and going to the start club and um your parents did they have any idea what was going on no well not not really because i was the youngest of eight kids and so by the time by the time my parents got to me they were just very hands off they're like just do whatever we don't even know what you're doing and you know i was making straight a's in school so they didn't really they didn't really pay attention for better for worse i think for worse but so i had this kind of leeway to move about the cabin freely and um and so and so i explored gay culture in high school i was you know pretty precocious and and then the same thing i went away to college and the same thing happened i became best friends with somebody who was dealing with this you know same-sex attraction we came out to each other and again i had like a confidant and a you know partner in crime and in college where we could go out and no one really knew and and in high school and in college i was in the closet and i never thought being gay was kind of a permanent thing in my life i thought it was just gonna i thought you know it was weird it was like this is what i'm feeling now i'm just gonna go with these desires but eventually i'm gonna you know have a wife and kids but right so i never really i'm sorry to interrupt but you were catholic because you you went to jesuit you said which for those who don't know that's a catholic school in dallas so you were raised catholic i was raised roman catholic yes gotcha uh i know yeah a big catholic family and so and then um and then after college that's when after college i moved to tokyo with my best friend and that's when it became really my identity because while i was in japan while i was in tokyo my roommate invited his friend from texas to come visit us and his friend and i ended up falling in love and it i can't say his name but it was a guy and um and we ended up falling in love and that's when it was the first time i'd ever had that experience and that's when it was like okay this is definitely who i am this is my identity it's immutable this is the way this is my life now and i came out to everyone i came out to my family my friends and and and that's when i just kind of that's when it became my full full identity yeah and what does that feel like the feeling of going from okay this is just kind of maybe a fleeting feeling that i have or this is a phase that i'm going through you said in high school and maybe some in college you thought oh i'm still gonna grow up and get married to a woman and have kids what was that transition like and why do you think that transition happened from these are just some feelings that i have that may or may not be fleeting to okay this is now permanently immutably who i am was it the falling in love that made you feel that way or were there some other things going on that kind of made you say nope this is this is me i mean part of it was the culture around me because it was becoming more and more accepted in the culture but it the tipping point really was the falling in love aspect because that's that's when i just felt like okay this is i'm all in and i you know i didn't i no longer cared about what people thought of me or i no longer cared about this because it was still there was kind of stigma attached to it in the early 90s and so so i but i didn't care and i i was just like i told everyone and i told my you know my family they they my parents reaction was actually really lovely uh and again part of it was because i was the youngest of eight but they were just very calm they and they believed they believed that homosexual behavior was sinful i mean they were very clear on that but they were super loving to me in spite of that and uh and they didn't really you know there were no kind of dramatic scenes of like throwing me out of the house or you know quoting scripture to me because they already knew that what they knew that i knew what they believed so there was no need for that so they were just over the years they were so so sweet and and lovely to me which i really really appreciate but um but and then i and then after that after you know coming back from tokyo i moved to los angeles in 1993 and that's when that's when it kind of really really got shifted into high gear because when i got to la i got into this you know really fun group of friends all from the east coast ivy league schools like really smart ambitious uh they were straight people gay people and though all those friends now run hollywood they they literally create all the content that the world sees now which is crazy and and so once i got into this group of friends i mean and i was in los angeles i just felt like so liberated and free and like this is you know this is my life and i cycled through five really serious relationships with guys uh live in we live together and so and i and i we you know we did everything in hollywood because all of my friends were in the business they were aspiring writers actors directors producers we all wanted the same things we wanted to make it big in hollywood which they all did in a big big way and we all wanted to have these kind of extraordinary experiences which we were having in spades because we were we were always invited to the you know movie premieres every week and to the oscars the emmys the golden globes and the after parties and the vanity fair parties and all these i was always kind of just invited to things like i was i would end up at ariana huffington's house all the time you know for cocktails or having dinner with tom hanks and meryl streep you know and just all these things so i was having these great experiences and our other thing was we all wanted to find the one true love and so we were always kind of on the on the search for that and and you know i as i said every time i would get into a relationship with a guy i'd be like okay this is the one yeah he's gonna save me this is like you know this is amazing and of course it would end in two years it was always like the shelf life of two years on these relationships yeah i think a lot of people can relate to that um and when you say that you know you thought that this person was going to save you what i mean what do you mean by that what were some of those feelings why do you think and maybe this is just how everyone feels when they're searching for the one but why do you think you felt like oh my gosh i have to find the one it's a form of like romantic salvation that i'm seeking what do you think that was in you that kind of created that desperate longing i think it was a longing for purpose really because i had no i knew i knew that god was never an option for me because i was gay so he was very okay so you were not you didn't i even identify as a christian or a catholic at this point no and even growing up in the catholic church i never i never connected with it at all i just thought it was kind of theater you know and and i i never felt any connection really to god growing up and so uh so yeah i think i was looking for meaning and purpose in my life because i that and the only way without god the only kind of purpose you can get is either through your career or through a relationship i mean or i don't i mean there may be other ways but those are the main ways and so that's kind of what i threw myself into was my career and and was in these relationships and i thought and especially in the relationships i thought the guy would you know somehow really give my life this like purpose and meaning and and it felt that way you know at least in the beginning of these relationships it felt like i had had some sort of purpose but then they would of course vanish over time yeah so you are in what stage of your life are you in 20s 30s still in my 20s yeah okay so that's when you were living in la with this great group of people you were going through a series of really serious relationships and at what point did you realize okay these people that i'm it sounds like also in addition to like wanting purpose you really wanted to be known we all want that intimacy you want to be fully known by someone and fully loved for everything you are i think that is a desire that all of us have and sorry maybe your disconnect from god was also causing you to kind of seek that intimacy um and that fully known-ness in someone else but when did you realize okay i've tried that several times and it's not actually giving me the thing that i'm looking for it's not actually fulfilling me well you know in these kind of relationships especially in gay male 1 i think especially in gay male relationships there's this it's not unconditional love it's always quid pro quo and it's always kind of like as long as i have a great career and you have great abs like we're good to go but like the second you slit like you know a lot of my friends won oscars and uh and golden globes and all these things and it's like suddenly like if my friend dustin lance black won the oscar for the movie milk then suddenly he's like okay like he you know yeah the quid pro quo changes so so um it was always that kind of pressure i when i was in these relationships i always felt like i was walking on eggshells and that you know just the one wrong move and it would be over and and that was actually the case and there was a lot of infidelity a lot of you know lying and drama and so i think you know after the fifth relationship i just kind of was like i mean i was already starting to feel this in general in my life i was just kind of like is that all there is to a fire is that all there is you know i i was getting to that point of the law of diminishing returns we're setting in and i just felt like you know i've been doing this for so long i've been going to you know i would go to parties i would go to prince's house you know for a private concert in his backyard and tell all these things and and i'd go to fashion week in new york and paris and i thought you know for a long time those shiny objects sustained me and and my friends sustained me because they were so fun and interesting and and smart and but after you know because even since high school after like 20 years of doing these kind of things and purchasing these kind of shiny objects you just start to i in my life i just started to feel like i can't do this anymore like this isn't gonna sustain me for the rest of my life i don't know what i don't know what i'm gonna do but i can't keep just doing this [Music] okay quick break for our first sponsor of the day and that is birch gold you 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[Music] so tell me what it was like hearing the gospel maybe for the first time or in a real way the first time or understanding it and tell me about becoming a christian when and how and why yeah well it started in paris in march of 2009 i was at fashion week i used to go to fashion weeks a lot in new york comparison so i was at fashion week i went to a bunch of the runway shows i went to a bun and they have after parties and i was at an stella mccartney's after party and everyone from the fashion world was there kanye was there just it was like and people were dancing and drinking champagne and it was at this nightclub in in the middle of paris called regime and i just that's when it really hit me that that i just felt overwhelmed with emptiness and i just kind of like felt like this cannot be my life like like this was fun this was a great you know i had a great time for a long time but this cannot be my life anymore and i i ghosted the party went back to my my the apartment i had rented and i was kind of up all night in a panic about my future and then i you know i get back to la a couple days later and then cut to six months later i'm with my best friend who is gay and and we you know we used to do the kind of we used to hang out all the time like every almost every night and every weekend and and on the weekends we would go to brunch in venice we would go shopping in west hollywood or beverly hills which is gay church brunch and shopping and then we would go to this coffee shop in silver lake and hang out because it was like it was kind of you know it was always kind of active and crowded and fun people interesting people and friends we knew so we were there that day and and uh we were chatting and we know suddenly we we look over and the table next to us is a group of young people with bible physical bibles on the table and we i had never seen a bible in public in l.a in my life yeah so it was it was a shocking site and my friend was was shocked too we were we were both like what is going on like this is bizarre especially in silver lake which is a very kind of progressive enclave of la and so we were half rep repulsed and half intrigued by them and so why do you think you felt some feelings of repulsion because it was just like because historically for you know for for us evangelical christians and we just i assumed they were just evangelical christians you could kind of tell so evangelical christians were always the enemy in in gay culture and so so that was it was kind of residual revolt it wasn't really i wasn't like super revolted by them but it was just kind of that residual like ooh like christians but then i was kind of like wait a minute i i don't really know what my life is about maybe they have some answers yeah it's always like a christian's fantasy come true i turn to them and i'm like hey um are you guys christians and what's the gospel no way by that time in my life i had i had really i by that time in my life i was a practical atheist like i i honestly believed that the bible was an ancient myth like any other ancient myth i i believe god was a fairy tale i didn't i didn't believe in it and but when i saw them it just i just felt like you know what have i got to lose because because of that night in paris six months before i just thought you know maybe i just want to talk to them and see what they say and so i i honestly didn't even remember like what the the what the gospel was really i mean i kind of knew obviously vaguely but i just needed to hear it so i turned to them and i just said you know what do you guys believe because i grew up roman catholic i don't really remember and they said well we go to an evangelical church in hollywood on sunset and and you know they told they told me basically the gospel and this is what we believe and and of course i get to the 64 000 question and i say what is your church and hollywood believe about homosexuality and they said well we believe it's a sin and i i at in that moment i really i wasn't surprised by that by that answer and i really appreciated how honest they were and that they didn't try to dodge the question and you know kind of obviously like i was glad that they just said it you know just outright and and so in that moment i thought okay what if i've what if god does exist i mean there's a slim chance he does exist and what if homosexual behavior is wrong is sinful and what if i've built my entire life on a false foundation and i don't know it like that that's a possibility yeah and so so i was receptive i was open to hearing that from them whereas like a couple years before or five years ten years before that i would have been like you guys are crazy you need help you need therapy um but i was open to hearing that and then they invited me to their church the following sunday called reality la and um which i still attend and i so i i had no idea what i was getting into because i had never been to an evangelical church i didn't know what it was like i didn't know what it looked like i was used to stained glass windows totally different catholic church yeah i was used to vestments and hats and stuff and so i show up i i didn't actually i didn't know if i was going to go because you know it's a big deal to kind of yeah it was like betraying your your community like you know if if anyone ever found out besides my best friend who was there like it would just would have been very weird and what was his reaction was he kind of like what are you doing he didn't um he was intrigued as well and and and he didn't really know that i was going to that i was going to follow through and actually go to the service the following sunday and i didn't either because i spent the whole week kind of going back and forth like am i going to do this is it so weird if i go and it could be humiliating and what if nothing happened nervous about people being judgmental or right away castigating you that wasn't the fear no not at all no i just thought you know what if n my biggest fear was what if nothing happens and then i'm just still stuck in this kind of no-man's land of like no purpose in my life and no meaning and so i i ended up that sunday morning i woke up and i i just was like i guess i'm going to do this and i drove to the the it meets in a high school auditorium in la public high school which is funny and um and so i walked in and it was just kind of this really plain auditorium and the worship band was playing and i remember thinking when i walked in i just was like oh christian music that's so weird i forgot that existed gross but then i was like wait a minute it's actually nice like it's and so i i and then i found a seat i i sat near the front and by myself and the pastor comes out and he starts preaching on romans chapter 7 and as he's preaching for an hour just things start to shift in me it's crazy as he was preaching i was hanging on every word and i was riveted to the sermon because i was like wait a minute everything he's saying is true and i don't know why i feel that way right now what's going on and and i just was i didn't want him to stop preaching because i was like this is amazing like this is the gospel this it turned everything i i believe i thought religion was on its head and i was like this is good news this is crazy and so after the sermon he he left he before he left the the stage he said there's people on the side of the church on the prayer ministry and if you need prayer for anything you can go ask so that was another kind of moment of like do i go over there if i do it's kind of people might be watching me and it's weird but i was like whatever i'm here so i went over to this guy and i said on the prayer team and i said you know i don't know what i believe but i'm here and again it's a christian thing yeah fantasy come true and he's and he says well can i pray for you i'm like yes and he you know lays his hands on me and he starts praying and it just felt so loving and i was like why how does this random straight guy love me so much and care about me so much and and it was just felt very powerful and i thanked him i went back to my seat and there's another 25 minutes of worship music playing so the lights are kind of dim it's a i go to a reformed church but so it's this sounds kind of wacky but the light's dim but um and so i uh as soon as i i sat everyone else was standing and singing and worshiping i sit down and all of a sudden the holy spirit just flo like like overwhelms me and in that moment god revealed himself to me and i'll never forget i mean in my mind he said god said i'm god jesus is my son heaven is real hell is real the bible is true welcome to my kingdom and i was like and it's like isaiah when he's in the temple and he sees the holiness of god and he comes undone that's what happened to i just started bawling and bawling like but i was crying harder than i had ever cried in my life wow except as an infant but it because i was just born again i was i was kind of an infant yeah and then um so i i was was wretching for the next 25 minutes and then i i got in my car and i drove home i didn't even know how i made it home because i was in such a state and i got into bed to take a nap because i was so overwhelmed and uh and it happened again god's like it was like moses is in the cleft of the rock and god passes by with his glory god was like let me show you some more of my glory and it just was like this huge dose of god's presence again and i was like whoa and i just burst into tears again jumped out of my bed and in the middle of my bedroom i was like god you have my whole life i'm yours i'm done and and i knew in that moment that homosexual behavior was a sin i knew it was wrong i i knew it yeah i knew immediately i knew it wasn't who my identity anymore i knew that dating guys was no longer a part of my future but i didn't care because i just met jesus and i was like uh i'm gonna go with that guy good riddance to that life so this wasn't this wasn't a product of you know a process over time of people really teaching you hey here's why we believe homosexuality is wrong here's what the bible says at that point you didn't even really know what the bible said about it right besides what the christians had told you originally when you saw well i knew i mean i was i was aware of what the bible because i you know i grew up in the catholic church and we i knew what the bible had to say about homosexual behavior but but it was so god had so much grace on me that day first of all the fact that he that all happened the very first time i went to a church was remarkable and uh and he had so much grace and he made it so clear just it was like an instant i just knew that this is not who i am this is not my life and and and good and i was like and i still to this day am in shock about i mean that was 12 years ago september that was september 20th 2009 and i'm still stunned by it but i have zero desire to go back to egypt and to go back into bondage i have no desire like i i'm so like i'm so thrilled that god rescued me out of that darkness and out of that life because that life what the media you know what the media doesn't show obviously is that life is very dark uh especially for gay men and so there's just so much like it's like the glue the glue that holds that community together there's three i think there's three things that that hold it together and this may i mean this may i mean obviously there are exceptions i'm just generalizing but uh alcohol drugs and sex like that's what really binds that community together and at least when i was going growing up and going through that that whole thing so i was thrilled to be out of that bondage because it really is it's such a um i mean so much goes on behind the scenes that people don't talk about and just like at parties and there's there's you know people in bedrooms doing crazy things and it's just it's just a dark world and i'm so happy to be out of that world and into god's marvelous light i mean it's just so it's so i i can't even express how how amazing obviously you know how amazing it is but it's just amazing to be in christ [Music] another ad breaks to tell you guys about express vpn one of my favorite sponsors because it's something that i use every day when you go online without a vpn internet service providers can see every single website you visit they can legally sell this information without your consent to ad companies and tech giants when uh who then use your data to target you with advertisements for their products and things like that whenever you use a free service online you are actually the products they are selling you to third parties who are then advertising to you so you will buy their product it is kind of a racket honestly so if you want to protect your uh internet activity if you want privacy when you browse online then you need expressvpn that way internet service providers cannot see your online activity your identity is anonymized by a secure vpn server your data is also encrypted for maximum protection all you have to do is download the app you create your account and that app can be used on five different devices and so my husband and i share an account it's on both of our computers it's on both of our phones my family has expressvpn super easy to use i love knowing that it's just running in the background protecting my privacy i don't even think about it but i highly recommend you guys checking this out to protect your online activity visit expressvpn.com ally today that's e-x-p-r-e-s-s-vpn.com ally you'll get three extra months for free when you do that's expressvpn.com ally expressvpn.com ally [Music] there's a couple things that i want to highlight and get your thoughts on one thing that i noticed when you were describing the reaction of your parents and then describing um the reaction and the response the reception that you got at the church that you first visited you talked about their sweetness about their kindness and about just the love that they showed you a lot of christians who know that homosexuality is a sin we've talked about that several times on this podcast and what the bible says about that they have a tough time though balancing or knowing what it looks like to love someone and also speak the truth to them because one of the things that you said was very formative and that you appreciated was that the group of christians that you saw blatantly said yeah we think homosexuality is a sin a lot of times today we hear a whole lot of caveats and well you know we believe god loves everyone we won't talk about that yet but you appreciated both the sweetness and the love of people who received you but also the truth that those christians told you um so can you talk a little bit more about that for christians who are wondering how do i love but also speak the truth in love to people in my life who are gay or who identify as transgender whatever it is yeah i mean jesus was a master at this obviously if you and i've done this a couple of times where i'll read all four gospels through in one sitting and i'll i'll pay attention just i'll focus on how jesus interacts with people and he never compromises truth or grace he's he always he's obviously the he balances grace and truth perfectly and you know when he yes of course he he eats with and uh he's he spends times with tax collectors and sinners and prostitutes but he always like even with uh levi when he calls levi to come follow him levi leaves his tax booth and basically that and then there's a then he has a celebration at his home and that's that celebration is a sign of repentance that that he's left that behind he's left that life behind and even the woman at the well the the woman in samaria like you know jesus was so loving to her and so kind to her but he called her out on her sin and and i mean that's and i so i in in leviticus 19 actually if i can just read this for a second um this is about you know loving your neighbor and uh it says it's leviticus 19 verse 17 it says you shall not hate your your brother and your heart but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor lest you incur sin because of him and so loving your neighbor in other words means telling them the truth telling your neighbor the truth and so that's what that it's it's people kind of think like oh it's not very loving to say these things and to say homosexual behavior is a sin and but it's actually the most loving thing you can do because because you're if you don't if you if you're gay affirming you're aiding and abetting someone's eternal destruction and so that that's the most unloving thing you can possibly do and so i i find it to that's why i was so appreciative of how these these young christians just told me the truth because that's that's actually loving and they were you know they weren't they weren't cruel about it or mean about it they were just very honest and very they just said it very simply and so um yeah i think i think you ca jesus you can't check your you can't check your convictions at the door when when you're you know talking to people or when you're evangelizing you of course be gracious and loving but you you have to tell the truth and i think i think that's we're losing a lot because of this this issue is so you know controversial now in culture we're losing a lot of that even pastors are kind of afraid to talk about this issue yeah and that's kind of that kind of leads to my next question because it seems like for christians when compromise happens when deconstruction happens when they do kind of start embracing more worldly ideologies and dogma and trying to kind of somehow mix that in with christianity it does seem like homosexuality is the first thing like with gen hat maker that's one example we've kind of seen that evolution over the past few years i remember and i think it was 2015 when she talked about you know she doesn't think uh being gay is a sin we've seen that with several other what you would call you know professing christian influencers and it seems like for people who call themselves progressive christians that's the main thing there might be some other things that they think is wrong with traditional conservative christianity but that seems to be the main sticking point and the main reason why some people deconstruct why some people become so-called progressive christians why do you think that is and what do you what do you think about that what do you think about christians who say well you know i believe in jesus and the gospel and all of that but i also believe that being gay is fine well i i always think about so when i was in high school at jesuit everyone at jesuit everyone at ursuline this you know this was 30 years ago they believed there was it was just unequivocal they believed that homosexuality was was wrong homosexual behavior was wrong it just we didn't have to say anything it was just understood now some of those very same people from my high school on facebook there there there's a lot of them are gay affirming and so i my question is why what's happened over the last 30 years yeah gee i wonder what's happened and obviously it's the culture and and we live in a very specific time and place in history and culture in in the united states and there's been you know for the last ever since stonewall in from 1969 until now there's been this concerted effort to to obviously normalize homosexual behavior in all kinds of media and tv shows will and grace and uh you know queer eye and all these tv shows and those that those shows have a massive impact on people's understanding of this issue and they of course when when you see movies like you know brokeback mountain or all these other kinds of movies it just it it continues to it's such a storytelling is so persuasive and it's persuading an entire generation an entire culture that this behavior is not only good and righteous but it's also holy it's because it's gone from a sin to a sacrament over the last you know 50 years and so we have to understand how powerful the culture is and we have to understand that we are in the middle of it and we have to be aware of what is what's affecting our belief systems what's affecting our worldview is it the word of god or is it the culture is it netflix is it so you have to be aware of that because it's again the culture is so obviously right now is so powerful and just the constant onslaught of media that is pro lgbtq you know it's just it's just it's unbelievable really at this point and and so we have to be aware of what what's affecting us and that that's why i always i always tell people like if you've watched an hour of netflix you've just been lied to implicitly or explicitly and now you need to read the bible for an hour to be renewed in your mind you need the truth and so i think that's that's the trap and and by the way satan satan is thrilled about this he's thrilled that he's got entire generation deceived about this issue and he's laughing all the way to the bank he's winning this battle he's not going to win the war we know that but he's winning this battle and you know he's been lying from the beginning he lied in the guard he twisted god's word in the beginning to eve and he said did god really say you can't do that and he's doing the exact same thing with this issue he's saying did god really say homosexual behavior is a sin i mean it's really just whispered in the bible right right and it's it's not in the pattern the the the passages that talk about it you know they're not really clear and oh it could be cultural distance it means something else it's only talking about pedophilia it's only talking about rape yeah there's something that we've uh talked about a lot on this show and it's an alliteration that i like to use when it comes to the definition of marriage and holy sexuality because you do hear those arguments a lot that well the bible only prohibits it here and really it means this but as christians we don't just read the bible saying what does god say not to do but we also look at the bible and say well what does god say to do it's not a mentality for the christian for the one who is submitted to christ of what can i get away with the mentality is how can i deny myself and glorify god the most and so we also look at what god actually affirms it's not just that he says homosexuality is wrong although that would be enough if he did but he also affirms that marriage is between a man and a woman so that's rooted in creation it's reiterated throughout scripture it's repeated by jesus himself specifically in matthew 19 and it is reflective of the gospel because it is representative of christ and the church as we see in ephesians 5. so it's not just a physical bond the definition of male and female is actually representative of christ in the church that means it not only has gospel significance it has eternal significance and it's just the hubris of the culture of human beings and of progressive uh professing christians to say that we can redefine that that like that thing that is representative of something so huge and so eternal and it's fine it's fine we can redefine this big huge significant thing and it's okay and it really does just like all sin like you said go back to the garden and it also goes back to pride that we think we are more loving than god we think we are wiser than god we're more compassionate and empathetic than god we know truth better than god that's really what it is it's all about exchanging the god of scripture for the god of self yeah speaking of the exchanges in romans 1 you know there's the three exchanges that paul talks about that we exchange the truth for a lie and it's interesting because what does paul use as the illustration at the end of that that section what does paul use as the illustration for suppressing the truth homosexual behavior and why does he do that because it's patently obvious anatomically physiologically that two men or two women do not go together and that's why paul uses i think if paul were around today he may use the example of abortion as suppressing the truth because you know even when i was when i was living as a gay man i was pro-choice and but it's like i i knew deep down i knew that that that that was a baby in the womb but because all my friends were pro-choice and i just you know i just took that on and and that's just actively suppressing the truth and so but anyway yeah so the bible is um says nothing positive about homosexual behavior it's all negative and and it's so i mean as you said just from genesis to to revelation it's just it's not just those six passages that specifically address it it's it's the entire scope of of the story of redemption and yeah and the thing is the bible is not a handbook on homosexuality it's the greatest love story ever told but but it's so clear about this issue and paul says do not be deceived you know if men who practice homosexuality will not enter the kingdom of god it's just it's so abundantly clear and and so after i got saved that day after i i came to faith and when i read the bible i mean i mean i was i was just voraciously reading the bible i was obsessed with it and uh still am but i but every word just jumped off the page and i was like whoa like this is crazy i can't believe that i'm a part of this story of redemption and and in the passages that talk about sexuality i just was like they completely rang true to me and i just knew that this is the truth this is the truth wow um okay i've got building on that i've got three specific kind of advice questions to ask you one thing we talked about um why a lot of christians obviously we know why non-christians kind of give in on this issue but a lot of christians give in on this issue is not yes because of the culture and i guess one of the messages that culture tells us that political activists which are ruthless tell us is that if we do not affirm someone's so-called sexual or gender identity then they are going to die they're going to kill themselves it is like condoning violence it's always that it's never like well you know this kind of hurts someone's feelings and it's always straight to you're condoning their death you're condoning violence against them if you happen to disagree with that well no one wants to be on that side of course no one wants to right so i think that's one pressure and i'm wondering if you have some advice specifically when it comes to well i i don't know if i'm trying to split up these questions or bring them together one thing that people ask me a lot um that i've tried to answer but i want to hear your perspective should you use um the preferred pronouns of someone even though you know you're not affirming transgenderism and the second question is in this whole truth in love realm should you go to um a gay person's wedding as a christian to show them love well let's start with the gay wedding thing um so when i right after i i kind of i think it was like six months to a year after i got saved my agents at william morris invited me well one of the agents uh was gay is gay and he was getting married to a man and uh we were out at dinner and he hit the the woman agent she turned to me and she said becca you're going to so-and-so's wedding right and i said of course i'm going because in that moment i just felt like oh like i'm supposed to be loving i'm i should do this right because i was a brand i was a baby christian i didn't really know what to do and so i ended up going to the wedding and it was a huge mistake because once i got there i realized wait a minute after all these people here are celebrating sin like they're celebrating this union between two men and i can't be a part of this like so um so my my thing my thing with with gay weddings is i absolutely will not go ever again i won't put myself through that again and i i i just think i mean it's a tough question for for parents like do you go and show your you know your love to your child while at the same time making it clear to them that you you disagree with with what's happening but i find that you know jesus you know this i mean this is these are hard words but jesus said hate your mother hate your brother hate your father like and and come follow me and in other words like i have to be no i have to be number one in your life and and so you have to ask yourself is this is my attending this this this gay wedding is that glorifying to god and is my presence there showing support for this and again it's not about yes be you can go to to dinner to the dinner with them or whatever but to go to the union to the wedding quote unquote um i think is is is not a good idea for a christian to do i think it's it's damaging because you're you're sending the wrong signal you're you're basically saying like i'm affirming this as well with all these other people i'm affirming this union yeah so that's that's dangerous and then with the pronoun preferred pronouns it's funny that you ask me this question because i i try to stay out of that but um well you don't you don't have to you're you don't have to answer that question if you don't want to i just thought that you might have an interesting perspective even though i know transgender and homosexuality is not the same thing but as someone who was evangelized to and had that good mixture of truth and love in your opinion what is the mixture of truth and love there i mean it's hard because kind of in in principle i would say you know don't use preferred pronouns because you're just you're adding to the the chaos and the confusion of the world and so you're just you're just you're just not you're not helping in any way you're not helping bring truth salt and light you're not you're not bringing truth into a situation by using preferred pronouns so in principle i'm opposed to that um and i also think it's just post-modern gibberish and you know it's just like derrida and foucault are just winning you know because yeah because people are following everything yeah they're falling for this stupid deconstructed lie of you know oh gender's not real and simoned above wise yeah yeah there's no gender you know it's uh there's no there's there's not binary sex there's just kind of fluid gender and you can choose whatever you want so i think i think it's um important to to be kind of clear on that to the culture as a christian and and not not equivocate not waver on it because that culture already is so and even christians in the church are already so confused about it so i think it's important to be clear on that however that said in in any given situation it depends on you know if i'm talking to somebody who is transgender i or i'm not going to be i'm not going to go out of my way to be cruel to them so i'm not gonna like call them joe if their you know name is christine you know like i'm not gonna and i'm not gonna call them he when when they present or appear as as a woman so it's just i i it just depends i think it depends on the situation and i think you need wisdom and and i would pray about that but in general but in principle yeah i think just the the this whole pronoun gender stuff is so demonic and that we need to be be firm on it and clear about it but then also love people well [Music] last sponsor for the day you know them you love them maybe you even eat them it's good ranchers all right you're tired of going to the grocery store and trying to pick out the cut of meat that your husband told you to get you're like did he say t-bone did he say rib-eye i don't remember you know what you don't even have to worry about that and then you'll you look at the different cuts of meat even if you can remember which kind of meat your husband said that he wanted to grill that night and you're like well i don't really 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i love good ranchers for that reason because it makes my life so much easier and it's a genuinely really good product we eat good ranchers almost every single night and maybe my favorite my absolute favorite thing about it is that it is all from american farms and ranches it is so hard sometimes to find products that are actually made in america we want to support america the one of the uh solutions to all this crazy globalization and great reset stuff is localization depending on our own communities depending on our own country for the things that we need eighty percent of the meat in grocery stores imported from overseas so go to go to ranchers you'll get all american meat ethically raised sustainably sourced plus if you use my uh my link goodranchers.com ally or promo code ally you get thirty dollars off plus free express shipping so go to goodranchers.comally that's americanmeat delivered right to your front door to get thirty dollars off plus free express shipping go to ranchers.com ally goodranchers.com ally [Music] i do think that there is a difference in talking about something or someone and talking to someone and you don't want to lie to them i think that you could simultaneously say to someone hey you know i love you i want to be your friend but here's where i stand on this like you are a man you're a woman whatever it is i'm going to be as kind to you as possible if you want me to call you sally i'll call you sally but here's where i stand here is the truth um so i think it is possible to i know that nuance is a word that is very overused nowadays sometimes to excuse people for just confusion but i do think in interaction with someone and in conversation with someone there is some nuance but i'm with you definitely on the principle absolutely i'm not going to use the preferred pronouns if i were writing an article if i were talking about a story like a man competing against women in sports um i'm not going to add to that confusion by using the improper preferred pronoun but it can get a little bit complicated um with people um okay here's the there's many things i could i want to ask you but here's one thing i have a really hard time with personally and that's first corinthians 5 11. now i'm writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is gilso a fellow christian if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed or is an idolater reviler drunkard or swindler not even to eat with such a one now a lot of people have friends who profess to be christians who are gay or who are greedy whatever it is and i'm not sure how often we actually implement this biblical rule i mean what is your take on that what would your advice be to christians who are kind of struggling with this well well i'm not gonna i'm not gonna go against paul that's for sure yeah um so i mean yeah i mean those words he's those words that you just read are they're harsh and they they seem harsh in our culture and they sound hard but um yeah if someone is professing to be a christian yet they're living a life like for example they're they're they're prac they're living a life of of homosexual behavior and they're living that life and identifying as gay and i think i i mean i i think i would do what paul says and you know because and first here's the thing you know and there is this is all over the new testament but and i'll just read in first john um this is what john has to say and he says in john 3 first john 3 says no one who abides in christ keeps on sinning no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or knowing known him whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil for the devil has been sinning from the beginning and then lastly he says no one born of god makes a practice in other words continues in unrepentant sin so no one born of god makes a practice of sinning for god's seed abides in him and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of god so and so if i if i meet someone who professes christianity and but then you know goes to a gay affirming church or is gay and lives that life fully then i treat them as a gentile as paul would say i treat them as a non-believer and so i yeah i uh i don't i'm trying to think if if i do i don't i don't i really don't hang out with people who who are doing that who are in that situation so i guess and just by kind of default i don't associate with people who are doing that yeah i think that's um a difficult area for people who again are told that love is unconditional affirmation but you made such a great point earlier that the most loving thing that we can do is really agree with god and agree with god in what he says is good and right and true and there is a way to exemplify that truth in love and as you pointed out earlier jesus is the perfect example of that now i do want to say to people that jesus was the perfect example of the embodiment of of grace and truth and we are also told that stephen was described as that full of grace and truth we know how both of them ended up so being full of grace and truth does not mean that the culture is going to love you that the person that you're talking to is going to respond well that you're going to be accepted by the world actually if you look at the life of stephen um you might get metaphorically stoned canceled whatever for being full of grace and truth and so realize that the outcome or the response is not indicative of your of whether or not your obedience is right the indication of whether or not your obedience is right is if it's biblical yeah and you know jesus i'm just trying to find the sermon on the mount uh but jesus said yeah jesus says um blessed are you blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake for theirs is the kingdom of heaven blessed are you and this is i mean this is like i'm sure you get this i get this all the time blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account rejoice and be glad for your reward is great in heaven for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you and then you know jesus says they're they're going to hate you because they hated me first and so yeah i take great comfort in that that our master our king suffer he suffered you know the worst kind of of mistreatment and persecution and so when and okay and paul's what's the verse count it all joy brothers is that peter or paul peter paul or mary um but yeah i mean it's just like i and one of james who is it i think it's actually james james oh james okay okay sorry um but i you know one of my favorite verses i i don't like to choose favorite verses but one of the verses that really resonates with me and has always resonated with me since i became a christian is when paul says i count everything as lost because of the surpassing worth of knowing christ jesus my lord now i i've lost a lot of friends like i've i lost my closest closest friends from from uh uh saint mark's in hockey so the i had when i was at jesuit most of my friends were saint mark's and hawking people and they were my roommates in la like we were all best best best best friends since high school and i lost those friends i lost my career but again just like paul you know paul this is another thing about this issue is it's it's so we're so in this kind of obviously if you if you've read the rise and triumph of the modern self we're in this expressive individualistic kind of period in history and if you're you know if you're not living your authentic life or being true to yourself then somehow you're not you know that there's something wrong with that but i just find that um i kind of i just lost my train of thought wait where was i going okay the rise in trying for the modern self that's carl truman and we're kind of told that if you're not authentically being yourself at all times then you're not going to be fulfilled you're not going to be happy and all of that and you but you lost all of these friends yeah so what i was going to say is paul paul we kind of live in this time where we're just like we look at ourselves in our lives and we want happiness we want we want all these things and it's like paul if you look at his life he was shipwrecked and beaten and and uh he was jailed and but all he cared about was running around the mediterranean planting churches spreading the gospel and that's all he cared about it wasn't his life wasn't he was per were purchased we are not our own we were bought with a price and so our life is not our own and so that that's the that's the the struggle with you know with being a christian is this is not we we are no longer we don't own ourselves christ owns us now and so i just look to paul and i think of you know what he went through and i'm just like my life is you know my my life is a cakewalk compared to what paul had to deal with and so uh i think we need to kind of remember and go back to the word of god and remember you know all the the the people who you know all the apostles were were martyred except john who was sunbathing on patmos and writing revelation yeah but um but yeah we have to look back and look at the early church and the martyrs of the early church and how persecuted christians were in the first century by nero and others and so yeah so it's it's not we kind of are so internally focused right now in our culture and it's so toxic and we we need to look outward and look upward really yes absolutely could not agree more i am so thankful that you took the time to come on and share your story i actually had a bunch of other questions to ask you about things that are currently going on uh in culture that you've been talking about on your podcast but i was just so invested in your story and i just knew as you were talking that this was going to really benefit the people that need to hear it so thank you for once again sharing your story with us and for answering some questions that i know aren't aren't always easy to answer but that a lot of christians are wrestling with then um you lent us your wisdom into those and so i'm very grateful can you tell everyone where they can find you where they can buy your book and all that good stuff oh yeah um you can buy a change of affection on any amazon or barnes and noble whatever anywhere really and uh and you can find me on youtube at on the becca cook show or it's on any kind of a podcast platform as well or rebeccacook.com becketcook.com is my website so you can go there if you need awesome well thank you so much thank you ali i appreciate it [Music] you

Channel: Allie Beth Stuckey

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Id: dlLXqmc4UUQ

Length: 68min 8sec (4088 seconds)

Published: Tue Mar 15 2022