How To Grow a Charming City | The Agenda

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>> Steve: THOUSANDS OF SORELY NEEDED CONDO UNITS HAVE GONE UP OVER THE PAST DECADE PLUS IN THIS PROVINCE. AND TO BE SURE, THERE'S A HOUSING CRISIS AND EVERYONE AGREES WE NEED MORE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. BUUUT... FOR ALL THE ENGINEERING WONDERS OF SOME OF THESE BUILDINGS - 50 STOREYS, GLASS AND STEEL - DO WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT MAKING IT ALL A BIT MORE, WELL, CHARMING? WITH US NOW ON HOW TO GROW CITIES WITH, SHALL WE SAY, GREATER CIVIC APPEAL, LET'S WELCOME: MARY ROWE, SHE'S PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE CANADIAN URBAN INSTITUTE; AND LONGTIME ARCHITECTURE CRITIC AND URBAN AFFAIRS COLUMNIST, CHRISTOPHER HUME. WE'RE DELIGHTED TO HAVE YOU TWO BACK HERE IN OUR STUDIO. LET US START WITH -- WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT PICTURES OF WHAT'S GOING ON AND GET YOUR FEEDBACK ON IT. MARY, START WITH THIS: CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THE CHARM OR A CHARACTER OF A CITY IS? >> Mary: NO, YOU REALLY CAN'T. I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE RIGHT OFF THE TOP THAT WE TALK HONESTLY ABOUT THAT BECAUSE CHARM IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. I ALWAYS WORRY, AND I'M SURE THAT MY ESTEEMED COLLEAGUE TO MY LEFT AND I ARE GOING TO HAVE AN ANIMATED CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE THERE ARE LOTS OF PARTS OF CITIES THAT LOCALS WOULD PROBABLY NOT USE THE TERM "CHARM" BUT THEY WOULD SAY IT'S THEIRS. IT REFLECTS WHO THEY ARE. IT HAS COME UP AS A RESULT OF WHATEVER NEEDS AND ASPIRATIONS THEY HAD. SO IT HAS A KIND OF LOCAL CHARM. BUT WHAT I WANT US TO DO IS BE CAREFUL TO NOT SOUND CONDESCENDING AND JUDGMENTAL -- THAT'S CHARMING, THAT ISN'T. IT'S REALLY GOT TO BE ABOUT AUTHENTICITY AND RESONANCE WITH THE LOCAL COMMUNITY, AND I THINK YOU CAN DO THAT. >> Steve: OKAY, MR. CONDESCENDING AND JUDGMENTAL, LET'S GO TO YOU -- I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS MEANT FOR HIM. >> Mary: I HANDED IT RIGHT OVER. >> Christopher: WHAT CAN I SAY? >> Steve: DO YOU FEEL YOU CAN DEFINE THE CHARM OR CHARACTER OF A CITY WHEN YOU SEE IT? >> Christopher: WELL, I KNOW IF I FEEL A CITY IS CHARMING OR NOT. TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, STEVE, I NEVER THOUGHT CHARM IS TORONTO'S STRONG SUIT. WE HAVE CHARMING AREAS, CHARMING NEIGHBOURHOODS -- CABBAGETOWN IS CHARMING, THE AREA AROUND RONCESVALLES IS VERY CHARMING, YONGE AND EGLINTON, THIS AREA THAT WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW WHERE I GREW UP, IS VERY UNCHARMING. >> Steve: 12 YEARS OF LRT CONSTRUCTION WILL DO THAT TO YOU. >> Christopher: YONGE AND EGLINTON IS NOW THE SORT OF METAPHOR FOR THE WHOLE CITY. IT'S A CITY OF CONSTANT CONSTRUCTION. IT'S LIKE 1984. INSTEAD OF CONSTANT WAR, IT'S CONSTANT CONSTRUCTION. IT'S PRETENTIOUS, OVERDESIGNED CONDO TOWERS, AND BEHIND IT, ACRES AND ACRES OF LOW-RISE, TWO-STOREY, POST-WAR HOUSING THAT SOMEHOW MANAGES TO SURVIVE DESPITE IT ALL. BUT CHARMING IS NOT A WORD I WOULD USE TO DESCRIBE TORONTO. IT'S LIVABLE AND WE LIKE IT AND WE'RE ALL HERE. BUT CHARMING, NO. >> Steve: HE GAVE A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES OF NEIGHBOURHOODS IN THE CITY THAT HE THINKS ARE CHARMING. DO YOU WANT TO ADD TO THAT? WHEN YOU SEE CHARM, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF IN THIS CITY? >> Mary: AGAIN, I THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR. FOR ME, PART OF WHAT MAKES A CITY REALLY INTERESTING IS UNIQUENESS. AND SOMETIMES I WOULD CALL THAT, I MAY CASE, I LIKE GRIT. I LIKE NEIGHBOURHOODS THAT HAVE MIXED USE, DIFFERENT KINDS OF FORMS, DIFFERENT KINDS OF DESIGN THAT'S BEEN PUT INTO THERE, NOT IN A QUITE SO TIDY AND THOUGHTFUL WAY. SOMETIMES I WORRY, CHRIS, WITH CHARM, THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A POSTCARD-LIKE KIND OF EMBLEMATIC, THIS IS A PERFECT CITY, VERSUS YOU AND I KNOW TORONTO HAS ALL SORTS OF NEIGHBOURHOODS THAT ARE INTERESTING, LOTS OF SURPRISES AND UNIQUE TO THOSE NEIGHBOURHOODS. SO WHETHER -- MAYBE "CHARM" IS TOO SENTIMENTAL A WORD. I'M TRYING TO FIND A WORD THAT'S MORE DESCRIPTIVE OF FORWARD-THINKING, RESPONSIVE TO WHAT PEOPLE WANT. >> Christopher: YOU KNOW, IF WE GO TO PARIS, LET'S SAY, PEOPLE WOULD SAY PARIS IS A CHARMING CITY. IT'S MORE THAN CHARMING, PERHAPS IT'S HARMONIOUS. THERE ARE VERY STRICT RULES ABOUT HOW TALL A BUILDING CAN BE, THE MATERIALS THAT THEY HAVE TO BE INCLUDED IN THE BUILDING, THAT SORT OF THING, THE USES EVEN OF THE FLOORS. AND IT ADDS UP TO A SENSE OF HARMONY AND SORT OF -- YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE THERE BECAUSE YOU KNOW -- >> Steve: THEY ALSO HAVE A LOT OF FRENCH PEOPLE SPEAKING FRENCH WHICH ADDS TO THE CHARM. >> Mary: CAN I COUNTER THAT AND PICK ANOTHER CITY IF WE'RE GOING TO DO THAT. WASHINGTON, D.C. LOTS OF HARMONY IN TERMS OF THE PUBLIC BUILDINGS. THE REAL INTERESTING PARTS OF WASHINGTON, D.C. AS YOU KNOW IS THE NEIGHBOURHOODS THAT SPARKED UP THAT ARE IDIOSYNCRATIC AND INTERESTING. >> Christopher: CITIES HAVE THEIR PUBLIC AREAS AND THEIR SORT OF PRIVATE AREAS. WHEN WE THINK ABOUT TORONTO, WE DON'T THINK ABOUT THE NEIGHBOURHOOD THAT I LIVE IN OR NECESSARILY CABBAGETOWN, THOSE KINDS OF PLACES I MENTIONED, EVEN THOUGH IT'S CHARMING. WE THINK ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING AT KING AND YONGE. WE THINK ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING ON BLOOR STREET. WE THINK ABOUT WHERE THE BASEBALL STADIUM IS. THOSE PARTS OF THE CITY THAT BELONG TO EVERYBODY, NOT NECESSARILY JUST THE PEOPLE WHO OWN OR WHO LIVE IN HOUSES. >> Steve: FOLLOW UP ON THAT THEN. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING AT YONGE AND KING OR YONGE AND EG OR NEAR THE SKYDOME -- ROGERS CENTRE, WHATEVER. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT OR REFERRING TO? >> Christopher: YOU JUST TOUCHED ON ONE OF THE POINTS I WANTED TO MAKE WHICH IS I BELIEVE THAT THE CITY IS UNDER SUCH PRESSURE TO CHANGE. THE PACE OF CHANGE IS SO FAST THAT NOBODY -- I SHOULD SAY NOT NOBODY, BUT WE FEEL AN INCREASING SENSE OF ALIENATION. WE FEEL UNTETHERED. AND WHEN YOU JUST MENTIONED SKYDOME, THE NAMES OF PUBLIC BUILDINGS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THAT. IT STARTED AS SKYDOME. THEN IT BECAME SOMETHING ELSE. AND NOW IT'S ROGERS CENTRE. THE O'KEEFE CENTRE BEING HUMMINGBIRD. I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT IS RIGHT NOW. EVERYTHING IS UP FOR SALE. EVERYTHING IS UP FOR GRABS. YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GOING TO MOVE ONTARIO PLACE NOW -- >> Steve: EVEN THE LEAFS DON'T PLAY IN MAPLE LEAFS GARDENS ANYMORE? WE SOUND LIKE A COUPLE OF FOGEYS HERE. CAN I READ THIS HERE? THIS IS FROM A PUBLICATION CALLED STOREYS, S-T-O-R-E-Y-S. >> Christopher: I WRITE FOR IT. >> Steve: WELL, COINCIDENCE OF COINCIDENCES, I AM ABOUT TO QUOTE FROM YOU. >> Christopher: OH, GREAT. >> Steve: HERE'S A PIECE THAT CHRISTOPHER RECENTLY WROTE AND, SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD, BRING THIS UP AND I'LL READ ALONG FOR THOSE LISTENING ON PODCAST. >> Christopher: WOW. >> Steve: HE WROTE THAT. >> Mary: HE DID. >> Steve: WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? >> Mary: HE'S PRETTY DAMN ELOQUENT. THERE'S A REASON HE WAS A JOURNALIST FOR ALL THOSE YEARS. YOU'RE TALKING TO TWO OLDER WHITE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED HERE FOR A COUPLE OF DECADES -- I MOVED AROUND. WE NEED TO TALK TO ALL SORTS OF OTHER PEOPLE. THEY MAY GO TO SEE AN EVENT AT A HOCKEY GAME, A CULTURAL EVENT, THE BALLET, AND THEY'RE COMING FROM OTHER PARTS, THEY MAY BE VISITING. THEIR EXPERIENCE OF THE CITY IS QUITE DIFFERENT I THINK THAN PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO WRING THEIR HANDS AND SAY IT'S NOT THE WAY IT USED TO BE -- JUST A SEC, CHRIS. WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT -- I DON'T KNOW IF I AGREE THEY COME AND DON'T LOOK AT CERTAIN PARTS OF THE CITY. A LOT OF PEOPLE COME TO VISIT FAMILY, FOR INSTANCE, AND THEY MAY BE IN SCARBOROUGH OR NORTH YORK OR WESTON AND THEY HAVE LANDMARKS THERE THAT ARE PART OF THE FABRIC OF THAT NEIGHBOURHOOD. THE CHALLENGE WE'VE GOT IS WE'RE ACCOMMODATING TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE COMING IN EVERY YEAR AND HOW ARE WE GOING TO ACCOMMODATE GROWTH. AS YOU SAID IN THE PREAMBLE, THE ONTARIO GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN A POSITION ABOUT TRYING TO OPEN UP THE CAPACITY TO BUILD MORE UNITS, AND SO THERE'S GOING TO BE NEIGHBOURHOOD CHANGE. AND THE CHALLENGE I THINK WE FACE AT THE CANADIAN URBAN INSTITUTE, ACROSS THE COUNTRY, IS HOW DO YOU BALANCE INPUT FROM LOCAL FOLKS WHO ACTUALLY HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN THE QUALITY OF THE BUILT ENVIRONMENT AND THE NEED OF THE FUTURE PEOPLE THAT ARE COMING. >> Steve: DOES OUR FEAR OF THE KIND OF CHANGE THAT YOU REFERENCED IN THAT EXCERPT THAT I READ LEAD TO AND RESULT IN MORE NIMBYISM IN THIS CITY WHERE NOBODY WANTS ANYTHING BUILT IN THEIR BACK YARD? >> Christopher: WELL, I THINK IT CERTAINLY ENCOURAGES THAT. IT SETS THE STAGE FOR NIMBYISM THAT IS WORSE THAN WE'VE EVER HAD BEFORE. I THINK MARY MAKES SOME GOOD POINTS. BUT I WOULD SAY TO HER THE FACT THAT I'M OLD AND WHITE AND MALE HAS RELATIVELY LITTLE TO DO WITH WHAT I'M SAYING. I LOOK AT AREAS LIKE THORNCLIFFE PARK, THAT ARE VERY IMMIGRANT HEAVY NEIGHBOURHOODS, THE NEIGHBOURHOOD AROUND THE ONTARIO SCIENCE CENTRE, AND THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE PROBABLY NOT BORN IN TORONTO OR IN CANADA FEEL STRONG ATTACHMENTS TO THEIR NEIGHBOURHOODS AND THEY DON'T WANT THE CHANGES THAT ARE BEING FOISTED UPON THEM EITHER. AND I THINK THE THING IS THAT OF COURSE WE ALL EXPECT CHANGE. AND CHANGE CAN BE GOOD. I THINK CHANGE IS ABSOLUTELY DESPERATELY NEEDED IN A CITY LIKE TORONTO. BUT THE TYPE OF CHANGE THAT WE'RE EXPERIENCING HERE AND THE RATE AT WHICH WE ARE EXPERIENCING IT MAKES PEOPLE FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE AND IT MAKES THEM SUSPICIOUS. >> Steve: CAN I PICK UP ON THAT WITH YOU, MARY? WE'RE TALKING MOSTLY ABOUT TORONTO SO FAR. BUT OTTAWA IS A BIG CITY. MISSISSAUGA IS A BIG CITY. HAMILTON IS A BIG CITY. BRAMPTON IS A BIG CITY. ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS WE'RE DISCUSSING HERE THE SAME ISSUES IN OTHER BIG CITIES AS WELL? >> Mary: NOBODY WANTS CHANGE, IT'S AN ADAGE WE CAN JUST DRINK COFFEE ON AND KNOW IS TRUE. THE QUESTION IS, HOW DO WE ACTUALLY ENCOURAGE DEVELOPMENT TO MAKE SOME SENSE? I THINK THAT'S PART OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, CHRIS. >> Christopher: IT IS. >> Mary: IT'S HAPPENING SO QUICKLY. THERE'S A PERCEPTION PEOPLE HAVE -- WE WERE TALKING ABOUT HOW GRUMPY PEOPLE ARE AT THE MOMENT. IT'S BECAUSE SO MUCH IS HAPPENING. THE CONSTRUCTION IS HAPPENING. THERE'S THIS CRANE AND THAT CRANE AND WE'VE GOT INFLATION, ALL THESE OTHER PRESSURES. I THINK THE DILEMMA POST COVID IS THAT MORE PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO WORK FROM HOME. THERE'S TONS OF PEOPLE THAT STILL GO INTO THEIR OFFICES OR TO THEIR WORK PLACES. SO WE STILL NEED VIBRANT NEIGHBOURHOODS AND VIBRANT PLACES WHERE YOU WORK. AND THE BALANCING OF THAT IS GOING TO BE TRICKY. I THINK ONE OF THE VACUUMS WE SOMETIMES HAVE IS WE DON'T HAVE SORT OF PUBLIC LEADERSHIP THAT'S POSITIVE ABOUT HOW YOU COPE. I WAS THINKING IN LONDON WHEN THEY WENT THROUGH FOUR AND A HALF OR FIVE YEARS OF THEIR ENORMOUS TRANSIT INVESTMENT, AND IT WAS AWFUL WHEN THAT WAS GOING ON. >> Steve: NOW THEY HAVE THE LINE. >> Mary: NOW THEY HAVE SOMETHING GORGEOUS. HOW DO WE CONTINUE TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO THINK IN THE LONG TERM. WHAT I HEAR FROM CHRIS IS THAT THERE IS A LEVEL OF DISTRUST, RIGHT? THEY WON'T TRUST THAT EVENTUALLY WE'LL GET THROUGH IT? >> Steve: GO AHEAD. >> Christopher: IF YOU LOOK AT DEVELOPMENT IN TORONTO AND PLANNING IN TORONTO, WHICH IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE ARCHITECTURE AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT WE THINK OF WHEN WE THINK OF CHARM, MOST OF IT IS PIECEMEAL. THE CITY PLANNING IS ONE BUILDING AT A TIME. EVERYTHING IS PLANNED AND APPROVED OR NOT IN ISOLATION OF EVERYTHING ELSE. THE ONE PART OF THE CITY THAT HAS BEEN DONE WELL I WOULD SAY AND WHICH IS AN EXAMPLE THAT WE SHOULD ALL FOLLOW AND WHICH OFFERS HOPE AND OPTIMISM FOR THE FUTURE OF TORONTO IS THE WATERFRONT. WHY? BECAUSE WATERFRONT TORONTO STARTED, YOU KNOW, IN 2020 -- NO, NO, NO -- 2000, SORRY. TWENTY YEARS AGO. AND THEY SPENT THE FIRST TWO OR THREE YEARS PLANNING THE WHOLE WATERFRONT FROM SCARBOROUGH OVER TO ETOBICOKE. THEY DIVIDED IT INTO A SERIES OF PRECINCTS. AND THE PLAN FOR EACH PRECINCT WAS PUT OUT FOR INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION. SO WE HAD THE BEST PLANNERS IN THE WORLD IN TORONTO WORKING ON THE WATERFRONT. NOW, DOUG FORD AT THE TIME WAS SAYING, IT'S A BOONDOGGLE, THERE'S NOTHING GOING ON, I HAVEN'T SEEN A THING IN THREE YEARS? NO. BECAUSE THEY HAD THE WHOLE THING PLANNED OUT. NOW WHEN THE DEVELOPERS GO DOWN THERE THEY KNOW ON SITE 35B, THEY'RE ENTITLED TO BUILD 35-STOREY BUILDING AND IT MUST BE MADE OF SUSTAINABLE MATERIAL. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE ALL THOSE WOOD CONSTRUCTION BUILDINGS DOWN THERE. IT HAS TO BE LEED PLATINUM, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. SO THE CONDITIONS ARE SET. AND IT'S PLANNED AS A COMMUNITY, AS A WHOLE UNIT. NOT JUST (ONOMATOPOEIA) LIKE THAT. >> Steve: HAVING SAID THAT, WELL, YOU TELL ME. I TALK TO PEOPLE WHO SAY THERE'S A SENSE AROUND THIS TOWN THAT EVERYTHING IS GOING UP SO MUCH SO FAST ALL AT ONCE. THE CUMULATIVE IMPACT OF IT IS, IS TO GIVE ONE A SENSE THAT THE PLACE IS A LITTLE OUT OF CONTROL RIGHT NOW. DO YOU NOT FEEL THAT? >> Mary: I MEAN, I DO SENSE THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE FEELING THAT. THERE'S A LOT OF STURM UND DRANG ABOUT IT. I THINK ONE OF THE CHALLENGES WE'VE GOT, IF YOU LOOK TOWARDS THE WEST SIDE OF THE CITY AND YOU SAY HOW ALL THOSE CONDOS SUDDENLY SEEMED TO GO UP ALONG THE GARDINER, AND YOU THINK, WELL, WHERE WAS THE PUBLIC REALM INVESTMENT? DID WE ANCHOR THOSE DEVELOPMENTS AROUND SHARED SERVICES AND SHARED AMENITIES SO PEOPLE HAVE A CONCERN, DID WE GET THE SCHOOLS RIGHT? DID WE GET THE PARKS RIGHT? SO I THINK THERE'S AN ANXIETY THAT'S CONTRIBUTED TO THERE. I WOULD SAY, CHRIS, THAT ONE OF THE DILEMMAS WE HAVE -- THE WATERFRONT HAS TAKEN A LONG TIME AND PEOPLE HAVE BEEN GROUCHY ABOUT HOW LONG IT'S TAKEN, RIGHT? >> Steve: 40 YEARS. WE'VE BEEN AT IT FOR 40 YEARS. >> Mary: BUT IF YOU LOOK AT FOR INSTANCE REGENT PARK -- >> Christopher: TWENTY YEARS. BECAUSE I'M TALKING ABOUT WATERFRONT TORONTO. CAN I JUST MAKE ONE OTHER QUICK POINT? THE OTHER THING THEY DID THAT WAS QUITE BRILLIANT, BECAUSE IT WAS A SORT OF SEMI-INDUSTRIAL WASTELAND DOWN THERE. I KNOW BECAUSE THE STAR BUILDING WAS DOWN THERE. I WATCHED IT OUT OF MY WINDOW -- >> Mary: YOU USED TO TREAD THOSE FIELDS. >> Christopher: YES, TRIP OVER THOSE FIELDS. BUT THE FIRST THING THEY BUILT THAT PEOPLE COULD SEE WAS SUGAR BEACH, SHERBOURNE COMMON, PLACES LIKE THAT. SO PEOPLE COULD SUDDENLY THINK, OH, MY -- >> Mary: PUBLIC REALM. >> Christopher: THEY FOCUSED ON THE PUBLIC REALM AND PEOPLE COULD SUDDENLY THINK, YOU KNOW WHAT? I COULD LIVE HERE. I CAN SUDDENLY SEE THIS IN A DIFFERENT WAY. IT'S NOT JUST A PLACE I DRIVE THROUGH ON MY MAY TO SOMEWHERE ELSE. IT'S A PLACE I WOULD LIKE TO STAY NOW. AND THE EMPHASIS IS COMPLETELY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE'RE DOING. AND WHEN POOR JOHN TORY DECIDED HE WAS GOING TO BUILD RAIL DECK PARK, 21 ACRES, AND THEN IT TURNED OUT, OH, NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT. THE CONDO DEVELOPERS ALREADY OWN THE LAND. >> Mary: ISN'T THAT ONE OF THE CHALLENGES? YOU SAID THE WATERFRONT, IT WAS KIND OF AN OPEN -- AND THEY'RE TAKING THEIR TIME DOING IT. REGENT PARK IS ANOTHER WHERE THEY RAZED SEVERAL SITES AND THEN BUILT SOMETHING UP. THE DILEMMA THAT YOU'RE SPEAKING ABOUT, STEVE, THAT MOST TORONTONIANS ARE DEALING WITH, IS THAT THEY'RE IN A NEIGHBOURHOOD THAT'S ALREADY BUILT UP IN SOME WAY. SO HOW DO YOU INCREASE THE DENSITY? HOW DO YOU TAKE MAIN STREETS, FOR INSTANCE, THAT HAVE INTERESTING RETAIL AT THE GROUND FLOOR AND HAVE TWO OR THREE STOREYS ABOVE WITH INTERESTING HOUSING -- >> Steve: WE HAVE SOME SUGGESTIONS HERE, ACTUALLY. >> Mary: LET'S HAVE A LOOK. >> Steve: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT A PART OF THIS CITY -- AGAIN FOR THOSE LIVING OUTSIDE THE CITY, WE'RE GOING TO GO TO THE JUNCTION NOW. THE JUNCTION IS IN THE WEST END. WE'RE GOING TO FIRST SHOW -- THIS IS A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT PICTURES OF DIFFERENT STUFF GOING UP. THIS IS A PHOTO FROM GERLACH CALLED JUNCTION POINT. IT'S A MID-RISE BUILDING, EIGHT STOREYS, 111 UNITS, DUNDAS STREET WEST. AN AUTO BODY SHOP USED TO BE ON THAT SITE. SO I GUESS WE CAN INFER FROM THAT THAT THIS IS A BETTER USE FOR THAT SITE THAN SIMPLY AN AUTO BODY SHOP BECAUSE LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LIVE HERE. STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION. FOR THOSE WHO CAN'T SEE BECAUSE YOU'RE LISTENING ON PODCAST, THIS IS A TRIANGLE SHAPE, IT COMES TO A POINT. CHRISTOPHER, START US OFF HERE. THIS IS NOT JUST SIMPLY A RECTANGLE OR BOX OR DROPPED INTO A NEIGHBOURHOOD SOMEWHERE, IT'S A BIT INTERESTING LOOKING. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT IT? >> Christopher: I LIKE IT. I WROTE ABOUT THIS BUILDING WHEN IT WAS FIRST MENTIONED. THERE'S A LOT OF DRAMA IN THIS BUILDING. THAT POINT, YOU CAN'T IGNORE THAT. IT ALMOST COULD BE DANGEROUS, IT'S SO SHARP. THERE'S ANOTHER BUILDING LIKE THIS DOWN ON MILL STREET. THE INTERESTING THING HERE, STEVE, IS ALSO THAT IT'S A MID-RISE BUILDING. EIGHT STOREYS. THAT'S A REALLY NICE HEIGHT. AND THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF OPPORTUNITIES IN NEIGHBOURHOODS AND ON MAIN STREETS WHERE BUILDINGS LIKE THIS ONE, OR AT LEAST THIS SIZE, COULD BE BUILT AND ENHANCE THE NEIGHBOURHOOD. THERE'S ROOM FOR RETAIL AT THE STREET LEVEL. THERE'S ROOM FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO HAVE A HOUSE, YOU KNOW, WITH ALL THESE BEDROOMS THAT ARE EMPTY. I MEAN, I HAVEN'T BEEN TO THE THIRD FLOOR OF MY HOUSE IN SIX MONTHS BECAUSE I HAVE NO NEED TO GO THERE. SO WOULDN'T IT BE NICE IF I COULD LIVE IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD, I COULD STAY THERE AND LIVE IN A PLACE -- THEY'RE SO USEFUL. BUT DEVELOPERS DON'T LIKE THEM BECAUSE THERE'S NOT AS MUCH MONEY TO BE MADE. THEY'RE JUST DIFFICULT, JUST AWKWARD. THEY REQUIRE JUST AS MUCH APPROVAL AND RED TAPE AND SO ON, BUT THERE'S MUCH LESS PAYOFF IN THE END. >> Steve: LET ME SHOW MARY THE NEXT PICTURE. THAT ONE IS JUNCTION POINT. THIS ONE IS JUNCTION HOUSE. SAME NEIGHBOURHOOD. LOW-RISE. NEON SIGN ON THE ROOF. KIND OF COOL. THAT'S THE SIGNALLING THE ENTRY POINT TO THE NEIGHBOURHOOD, YOU KNOW? THIS IS NINE STOREYS. WHITE AND RED BRICK. IS IT BIGGER ON THE TOP THAN ON THE BOTTOM? IT KIND OF CONVEYS THAT LOOK ABOUT IT, THAT IT'S NOT JUST A BOX. IT'S GOT SOME CONTEXT TO IT. I DON'T KNOW. MARY, WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> Mary: A COUPLE THINGS. TALKING ABOUT SPECIFIC PROJECTS, AND I DON'T KNOW THE SPECIFICS OF EITHER OF THESE PROJECTS. BUT YOU CAN SEE IT'S A BIT BRUTAL THE WAY THAT BUILDING IS MEETING WHAT THE HOUSES ARE NEXT TO IT. THAT'S A LITTLE UNFORTUNATE, BUT IT COULD JUST BE THE PHOTO. HERE IS ONE OF THE CHALLENGES THAT CHRIS IS SPEAKING TO. WHEN YOU SEE THE MID-RISE STUFF GO UP, IT'S OFTEN VERY FORMULAIC AND PRETTY DULL AND AGAIN LOOK THE SAME REPEATEDLY. I'M A LITTLE MORE SYMPATHETIC THAT I THINK WHAT HAPPENS IS THE DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY GETS A PATTERN AND A DESIGN THAT THEY KNOW THE CITY WILL APPROVE AND IT'S JUST EASIER TO GET IT APPROVED, RATHER THAN THAT KIND OF INITIATIVE, THE FIRST YOU ONE YOU SHOWED, WHICH WAS KIND OF INTERESTING, HAD SOME INTERESTING ARCHITECTURAL ELEMENTS. THAT'S THE FIRST THING. SO I THINK VARIETY IS A REALLY IMPORTANT THING AND I DON'T KNOW QUITE HOW TO GET IT. >> Steve: SHELDON, PUT THAT PIC BACK UP AGAIN IF YOU CAN FOR A SECOND? I APPRECIATE THAT IT'S QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THE HOUSES NEXT DOOR. BUT THE IDEA I THINK WAS TO CONVEY A KIND OF GRITTY WAREHOUSE. >> Mary: YEAH, YEAH. LISTEN, I DON'T WANT TO BE PARTICULARLY CRITICAL OF THESE INDIVIDUAL PROJECTS. JUST A SEC, CHRIS. ONE OF THE DILEMMAS WE HAVE HERE IS WE CAN'T SEE THE CONTEXT, AND SO CHRIS AND I ARE ARGUING SO MUCH OF IT IS ABOUT PUBLIC REALM AROUND IT. ONE CAUTIONARY COMMENT I HAVE ABOUT THESE UNITS AND THESE DEVELOPMENTS -- AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS -- BUT IF YOU THINK ABOUT, IF THERE WERE PRIOR TO THIS, IF THERE HAD BEEN TYPICAL MAIN STREET RETAIL ON THE MAIN FLOOR AND THAT GETS KNOCKED DOWN AND YOU INTENSIFY THE HOUSING UNITS, YOU LOSE THE HOUSES THAT WERE ABOVE THE STORE THAT ARE GENERALLY AFFORDABLE AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO PUT MOM AND POP INDEPENDENT RETAIL INTO THAT KIND OF A DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE OF THE COST OF THESE THINGS. YOU TEND TO GET CHAINS. SO I THINK WE'VE GOT TO THINK REALLY THOUGHTFULLY ABOUT NEW MECHANISMS THAT WILL ENCOURAGE INDEPENDENT RETAIL TO LOCATE HERE. >> Steve: LET ME PUT THAT TO CHRISTOPHER. THERE'S A NEW THING IN TOWN -- WELL, I DON'T KNOW HOW NEW IT IS, BUT FACADISM, WHERE YOU TAKE, IN A WAY, WHAT THEY USED TO CALL THE AIR CANADA CENTRE, NOW THE SCOTIABANK ARENA, IS FACADISM. YOU'VE GOT THE OLD POST OFFICE BUILDING AT STREET LEVEL AND UP GOES THE BIG CONSTRUCTION BEHIND THAT. WE'VE GOT ONE SIX BLOCKS NORTH OF HERE ON MONTGOMERY STREET WHERE THE OLD POST OFFICE IS THE FACADE AND THERE'S A BIG CONDO TOWER THAT'S GONE UP BEHIND THAT. IT MAINTAINS THE STREETSCAPE, THE OLD STREETSCAPE WHILE AT THE SAME TIME BUILDING LOTS OF NEW STUFF AROUND IT. WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> Christopher: FOR THE MOST PART IT DOESN'T WORK, BUT THERE ARE EXAMPLES WHERE IT DOES. AIR CANADA CENTRE IS ONE OF THEM -- WHATEVER IT'S CALLED. >> Steve: SCOTIABANK ARENA. >> Christopher: SCOTIABANK ARENA. BECAUSE IT'S MAINTAINED AT A SCALE THAT'S BIG ENOUGH TO STILL HAVE THE ORIGINAL IMPACT. AND THERE'S ANOTHER STRETCH ON THE WEST SIDE OF YONGE SOUTH OF WELLINGTON, THE BCE PLACE, IT USED TO BE CALLED, A WHOLE ROW OF 19TH CENTURY RETAIL BUILDINGS. NOTHING ESPECIALLY FANCY. BUT IT WORKS BECAUSE IT'S A WHOLE BLOCK. BUT TOO OFTEN IT'S JUST A QUESTION OF SOME POOR FACADE THAT'S KIND OF BEEN SQUEEZED INTO THE -- LIKE THE BAY ADELAIDE CENTRE. IT'S TERRIBLE! YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT FAIR, I DON'T THINK, TO THE NEW BUILDING AND IT'S NOT FAIR TO THE OLD BUILDING. THEY BOTH END UP WITH THE WORST OF BOTH WORLDS, IT SEEMS TO ME. >> Steve: WE HAVE ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING HERE. IT'S A FAKE FACADE. SHELDON, COULD YOU BRING THIS UP? PIC 7. THIS IS KIND OF TRYING TO CREATE FAKE CHARACTER WITH A NEWLY BUILT OLD-LOOKING FACADE AT STREET LEVEL AND THEN A SORT OF MODERN GLEAMING CONDO ON TOP OF THAT. THIS IS COLLEGE STREET, EAST OF SPADINA, DOWNTOWN TORONTO, THREE STOREYS OF A FACADE MEANT TO LOOK OLD AND THE REST A NEW TOWER ON TOP OF THAT. MARY, WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> Mary: YOU KNOW, THESE ATTEMPTS AT WHAT WE WOULD CALL FAUX -- >> Steve: FAUX IS BETTER THAN FAKE. >> Mary: SAME IDEA, THOUGH. YOU KNOW THE OLD ADAGE, THE GREENEST BUILDING IS THE ONE ALREADY BUILT. WOULD YOU RATHER SEE ADAPTIVE REUSE OF AN EXISTING STRUCTURE AND INTENSIFY AROUND IT? YES. IT'S SO HARD TO DO THIS WELL, EH, CHRIS? >> Christopher: IT'S A MESS. THE BUILDING YOU SHOWED IS A MESS. THINK OF KING STREET WEST FROM LET'S SAY SPADINA EAST TO -- WHAT? -- UNIVERSITY. A LOT OF THOSE OLD WAREHOUSES, FACTORIES EVEN, HAVE BEEN SAVED AND THEY BECOME OFFICE BUILDINGS, THEY BECOME LOFTS, THEY BECOME ART GALLERIES, THEY BECOME RESTAURANTS. THEY ARE SO FLEXIBLE. AND, YOU KNOW, I SOMETIMES THINK THAT THE BEST THINK AN ARCHITECT COULD DO IS JUST TO BUILD FLEXIBLE SPACE BECAUSE THEN -- >> Mary: IT CAN BE REPURPOSED. >> Christopher: ABSOLUTELY. EACH GENERATION WANTS SOMETHING DIFFERENT. NEIGHBOURHOODS CHANGE. WE DON'T HAVE INDUSTRY HAPPENING ANYMORE IN TORONTO, BUT WE CAN STILL USE THOSE BUILDINGS. >> Mary: THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING DOWNTOWN. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE A REPURPOSING OF SOME OF THOSE COMMERCIAL -- >> Steve: THERE IS NO BIGGER CHANGE HAPPENING IN ANY NEIGHBOURHOOD IN THIS CITY THAN 50 METRES OUTSIDE THIS STUDIO. EXACTLY, YONGE AND EGLINTON. ONE MORE PICTURE, SHELDON. PICTURE 8. YONGE AND EGLINTON. THERE ARE MORE CRANES AT YONGE AND EGLINTON THAN THE ENTIRE CITY OF BOSTON, SO SAYS JENNIFER KEESMAAT. YOU KNOW, WHEN IT'S DONE, THERE ARE LITERALLY BILLIONS AND BILLIONS DOLLARS' WORTH OF CONDO UNITS GOING UP AT YONGE AND EGLINTON, THIS IS $12 BILLION LRT GOING EAST-WEST ALONG YONGE AND EGLINTON, THE SUBWAY IS ALREADY THERE, THEY'RE REDOING THE SUBWAY PLATFORMS THERE. WHEN IT'S DONE, IF IT'S DONE, I MEAN, THIS SHOULD BE PRETTY COOL, DON'T YOU THINK, MARY, AT SOME POINT? >> Mary: ABSOLUTELY. BUT, BOY, YOU HAVE TO BE PATIENT, DON'T YOU? >> Steve: YOU DO. >> Mary: WE WERE TALKING ABOUT HOW PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THIS NEIGHBOURHOOD AND HAVE BEEN HERE 20 YEARS, THEIR CHILDREN HAVE ONLY KNOWN CONSTRUCTION ZONES. SO THE LEVEL OF PATIENCE THAT'S REQUIRED. WHAT YOU JUST HAVE TO HOPE, FINGERS CROSSED, THAT THE BETS THEY MADE IN TERMS OF HOW THEY ACTUALLY APPROVE THESE VARIOUS BUILDINGS AND IF THEY'VE MADE SUFFICIENT INVESTMENT IN THE PUBLIC REALM, THAT IT WILL FIT TOGETHER. BUT THAT BEING SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT? IT WILL OPEN AND IT WILL FEEL NOT QUITE DONE AND IT WILL FEEL TOO STERILE, AND THEN OVER TIME, TIME IS THE FRIEND OF NEIGHBOURHOODS -- >> Christopher: TIME IS THE GREAT HEALER OF NEIGHBOURHOODS. >> Mary: IT IS. >> Christopher: BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, STEVE? THE WORK WILL NEVER STOP. THAT'S THE THING. I MEAN, IT WAS -- I REMEMBER WHEN THE MINTO BUILDINGS WERE BUILT ACROSS THE ROAD FROM HERE. THERE WAS A HUGE OUTCRY. AND MARY IS RIGHT, PEOPLE GOT USED TO IT. THEY DID SOME NICE THINGS. THEY PUT THAT LITTLE PASSAGEWAY. >> Steve: BETWEEN THERE. >> Christopher: YEAH. AND A NEW TRAFFIC LIGHT -- >> Steve: CHRISTOPHER, I REMEMBER DAVID CROMBIE WAS A GUEST ON THIS PROGRAM JUST AFTER THOSE BUILDINGS WERE BUILT, MR. 40-FOOT BY-LAW, RIGHT? I ASKED WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE SKYSCRAPERS? HE SAID I LOVE 'EM. IN FACT I BOUGHT ONE. PUT THAT UP, SHELDON, PICTURE 8. THIS IS A FUTURISTIC LOOK OF WHAT YONGE AND EG COULD LOOK AT. TORONTOREALTYBOUTIQUE.COM IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT MORE OF THIS. SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE USED TO BE A THREE-STOREY, THE BEST OF EAST GERMAN ARCHITECTURE, WHERE YOU USED TO GET YOUR OHIP CARD RENEWED. YOU ARE KNOW WHAT THAT BUILDING WAS CALLED? IT WAS CALLED ONTARIO GOVERNMENT BUILDING. [LAUGHTER] >> Steve: HOW IS THAT FOR A FANCY CREATIVE DYNAMIC TITLE? NOW WE'VE GOT THE MINTO TOWERS THERE WHICH ARE SO MUCH BETTER. >> Christopher: THAT'S A GOOD THING. I'M NOT SAYING IT ISN'T. BUT I THINK THE POINT HERE IS THAT WHAT DICTATES DEVELOPMENT AND GROWTH IN TORONTO TOO MUCH, TO TOO GREAT AN EXTENT, IS THE VALUE OF PROPERTY. EVERYTHING IS REDUCED TO ITS VALUE AS A PIECE OF PROPERTY. AND THAT'S WHY THE CONSTRUCTION WILL NEVER STOP. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN THE MINTO BUILDINGS WENT UP, BUT IT WAS QUITE A WHILE AGO. I WOULD THINK 20-ODD YEARS. >> Steve: NOT QUITE THAT LONG. >> Christopher: 15 TO 20, OKAY. AND THAT WAS ONE BIG HUGE PROJECT. NOW THEY'RE GOING ON AT DAVISVILLE ALL THE WAY UP. WHEN THE SUBWAY IS DONE, THE PLAZA, WHATEVER IT IS, ON THE NORTHWEST CORNER WILL HAVE TO GO, AND I'M SURE THEY'RE ALREADY THINKING -- >> Steve: WE'RE HERE ON THE SOUTHWEST CORNER AND THEY HAVE $2 BILLION WORTH OF PLANS FOR THIS PLACE. >> Mary: BUT THIS IS NOT UNIQUE TO TORONTO. I LIVED IN NEW YORK FOR YEARS, AND THIS IS THE SAME CHALLENGE. >> Christopher: I'M NOT SAYING IT IS. >> Mary: THE CONCERN ABOUT THE REAL ESTATE AND INVESTMENT COMMUNITY HAVING TOO MUCH SAY. HERE'S ONE OF THE THINGS WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT. HOW ARE WE GOING TO FIND WAYS TO MEASURE THE CUMULATIVE IMPACT OF THIS KIND OF INTENSIFICATION? WHAT ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE SHOULD BE WATCHING FOR? AND, SIMILARLY, WHAT KIND OF POLICY TOOLS NEED TO BE PUT IN PLACE FOR THE CITY TO BE ABLE TO EXERT SOME KIND OF MEASURE OF MONITORING AND CONTROL -- >> Steve: WHO IS GOING TO BE THE NEW MAYOR RESPONSIBLE FOR IT ALL? >> Mary: OH, YES, AND WHAT ABOUT LEADERSHIP? I ALSO THINK IT'S A LARGE PART ABOUT BUREAUCRACIES AND SYSTEMS AND THE CIVIL SERVICE -- >> Christopher: DON'T YOU THINK THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS COIN IS THE FACT THAT RENTS HAVE GONE THROUGH THE ROOF IN TORONTO AND THERE'S A KIND OF INSECURITY ANXIETY, PANIC THAT PEOPLE HAVE. I HEAR ABOUT IT ALL THE TIME. THEY DON'T KNOW IF THEY WILL BE ABLE TO AFFORD THE RENT NEXT MONTH. THERE ARE TWO RENT STRIKES GOING ON IN THE CITY RIGHT NOW. THAT'S THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS OUT-OF-CONTROL DEVELOPMENT. YOU KNOW, REAL ESTATE AND HOUSING ARE HOMES FOR PEOPLE, BUT IT'S BEEN REDUCED TO A COMMODITY LIKE SO MANY OTHER THINGS. >> Steve: WELL, I SUGGEST THAT WE RECONVENE THIS GROUP IN 10 YEARS AND SEE HOW YONGE AND EGLINTON AND SOME OTHER PARTS OF THE CITY HAVE GONE IN THE INTERVENING DECADE. WHAT DO YOU THINK? ARE YOU IN? >> Christopher: IF I'M STILL ALIVE, I'M IN. >> Steve: FROM YOUR LIPS TO GOD'S EARS. CHRISTOPHER HUME, MARY ROWE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON TVO TONIGHT. >> Christopher: THANKS, STEVE.
Info
Channel: The Agenda | TVO Today
Views: 3,298
Rating: undefined out of 5
Keywords: The Agenda with Steve Paikin, current affairs, analysis, debate, politics, policy, charming cities, civic appeal, city planning in Ontario, The Agenda, theagenda, OTT, Accedo
Id: 2qVt0gLUWvs
Channel Id: undefined
Length: 27min 0sec (1620 seconds)
Published: Thu Jun 08 2023
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