>> Steve: THOUSANDS OF SORELY
NEEDED CONDO UNITS HAVE GONE UP
OVER THE PAST DECADE PLUS IN THIS PROVINCE. AND TO BE SURE, THERE'S A
HOUSING CRISIS AND EVERYONE
AGREES WE NEED MORE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. BUUUT... FOR ALL THE ENGINEERING WONDERS
OF SOME OF THESE BUILDINGS - 50
STOREYS, GLASS AND STEEL - DO WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT MAKING IT
ALL A BIT MORE, WELL, CHARMING? WITH US NOW ON HOW TO GROW
CITIES WITH, SHALL WE SAY,
GREATER CIVIC APPEAL, LET'S WELCOME:
MARY ROWE, SHE'S PRESIDENT AND
CEO OF THE CANADIAN URBAN INSTITUTE;
AND LONGTIME ARCHITECTURE CRITIC
AND URBAN AFFAIRS COLUMNIST, CHRISTOPHER HUME. WE'RE DELIGHTED TO HAVE YOU TWO
BACK HERE IN OUR STUDIO. LET US START WITH -- WE'RE GOING
TO LOOK AT PICTURES OF WHAT'S
GOING ON AND GET YOUR FEEDBACK ON IT. MARY, START WITH THIS: CAN YOU
DESCRIBE WHAT THE CHARM OR A
CHARACTER OF A CITY IS? >> Mary: NO, YOU REALLY CAN'T. I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE RIGHT
OFF THE TOP THAT WE TALK
HONESTLY ABOUT THAT BECAUSE CHARM IS IN THE EYE OF THE
BEHOLDER. I ALWAYS WORRY, AND I'M SURE
THAT MY ESTEEMED COLLEAGUE TO MY
LEFT AND I ARE GOING TO HAVE AN ANIMATED CONVERSATION ABOUT
THIS, BECAUSE THERE ARE LOTS OF
PARTS OF CITIES THAT LOCALS WOULD PROBABLY NOT USE THE TERM
"CHARM" BUT THEY WOULD SAY IT'S
THEIRS. IT REFLECTS WHO THEY ARE. IT HAS COME UP AS A RESULT OF
WHATEVER NEEDS AND ASPIRATIONS
THEY HAD. SO IT HAS A KIND OF LOCAL CHARM. BUT WHAT I WANT US TO DO IS BE
CAREFUL TO NOT SOUND
CONDESCENDING AND JUDGMENTAL -- THAT'S CHARMING, THAT ISN'T. IT'S REALLY GOT TO BE ABOUT
AUTHENTICITY AND RESONANCE WITH
THE LOCAL COMMUNITY, AND I THINK YOU CAN DO THAT. >> Steve: OKAY,
MR. CONDESCENDING AND
JUDGMENTAL, LET'S GO TO YOU -- I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS MEANT FOR
HIM. >> Mary: I HANDED IT RIGHT
OVER. >> Christopher: WHAT CAN I
SAY? >> Steve: DO YOU FEEL YOU CAN
DEFINE THE CHARM OR CHARACTER OF
A CITY WHEN YOU SEE IT? >> Christopher: WELL, I KNOW
IF I FEEL A CITY IS CHARMING OR
NOT. TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, STEVE, I
NEVER THOUGHT CHARM IS TORONTO'S
STRONG SUIT. WE HAVE CHARMING AREAS, CHARMING
NEIGHBOURHOODS -- CABBAGETOWN IS
CHARMING, THE AREA AROUND RONCESVALLES IS VERY CHARMING,
YONGE AND EGLINTON, THIS AREA
THAT WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW WHERE I GREW UP, IS VERY UNCHARMING. >> Steve: 12 YEARS OF LRT
CONSTRUCTION WILL DO THAT TO
YOU. >> Christopher: YONGE AND
EGLINTON IS NOW THE SORT OF
METAPHOR FOR THE WHOLE CITY. IT'S A CITY OF CONSTANT
CONSTRUCTION. IT'S LIKE 1984. INSTEAD OF CONSTANT WAR, IT'S
CONSTANT CONSTRUCTION. IT'S PRETENTIOUS, OVERDESIGNED
CONDO TOWERS, AND BEHIND IT,
ACRES AND ACRES OF LOW-RISE, TWO-STOREY, POST-WAR HOUSING
THAT SOMEHOW MANAGES TO SURVIVE
DESPITE IT ALL. BUT CHARMING IS NOT A WORD I
WOULD USE TO DESCRIBE TORONTO. IT'S LIVABLE AND WE LIKE IT AND
WE'RE ALL HERE. BUT CHARMING, NO. >> Steve: HE GAVE A COUPLE OF
EXAMPLES OF NEIGHBOURHOODS IN
THE CITY THAT HE THINKS ARE CHARMING. DO YOU WANT TO ADD TO THAT? WHEN YOU SEE CHARM, WHAT DO YOU
THINK OF IN THIS CITY? >> Mary: AGAIN, I THINK IT
DEPENDS ON WHAT PEOPLE ARE
LOOKING FOR. FOR ME, PART OF WHAT MAKES A
CITY REALLY INTERESTING IS
UNIQUENESS. AND SOMETIMES I WOULD CALL THAT,
I MAY CASE, I LIKE GRIT. I LIKE NEIGHBOURHOODS THAT HAVE
MIXED USE, DIFFERENT KINDS OF
FORMS, DIFFERENT KINDS OF DESIGN THAT'S BEEN PUT INTO THERE, NOT
IN A QUITE SO TIDY AND
THOUGHTFUL WAY. SOMETIMES I WORRY, CHRIS, WITH
CHARM, THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
A POSTCARD-LIKE KIND OF EMBLEMATIC, THIS IS A PERFECT
CITY, VERSUS YOU AND I KNOW
TORONTO HAS ALL SORTS OF NEIGHBOURHOODS THAT ARE
INTERESTING, LOTS OF SURPRISES
AND UNIQUE TO THOSE NEIGHBOURHOODS. SO WHETHER -- MAYBE "CHARM" IS
TOO SENTIMENTAL A WORD. I'M TRYING TO FIND A WORD THAT'S
MORE DESCRIPTIVE OF
FORWARD-THINKING, RESPONSIVE TO WHAT PEOPLE WANT. >> Christopher: YOU KNOW, IF
WE GO TO PARIS, LET'S SAY,
PEOPLE WOULD SAY PARIS IS A CHARMING CITY. IT'S MORE THAN CHARMING, PERHAPS
IT'S HARMONIOUS. THERE ARE VERY STRICT RULES
ABOUT HOW TALL A BUILDING CAN
BE, THE MATERIALS THAT THEY HAVE TO BE INCLUDED IN THE BUILDING,
THAT SORT OF THING, THE USES
EVEN OF THE FLOORS. AND IT ADDS UP TO A SENSE OF
HARMONY AND SORT OF -- YOU FEEL
COMFORTABLE THERE BECAUSE YOU KNOW --
>> Steve: THEY ALSO HAVE A LOT
OF FRENCH PEOPLE SPEAKING FRENCH WHICH ADDS TO THE CHARM. >> Mary: CAN I COUNTER THAT
AND PICK ANOTHER CITY IF WE'RE
GOING TO DO THAT. WASHINGTON, D.C. LOTS OF HARMONY IN TERMS OF THE
PUBLIC BUILDINGS. THE REAL INTERESTING PARTS OF
WASHINGTON, D.C. AS YOU KNOW IS
THE NEIGHBOURHOODS THAT SPARKED UP THAT ARE IDIOSYNCRATIC AND
INTERESTING. >> Christopher: CITIES HAVE
THEIR PUBLIC AREAS AND THEIR
SORT OF PRIVATE AREAS. WHEN WE THINK ABOUT TORONTO, WE
DON'T THINK ABOUT THE
NEIGHBOURHOOD THAT I LIVE IN OR NECESSARILY CABBAGETOWN, THOSE
KINDS OF PLACES I MENTIONED,
EVEN THOUGH IT'S CHARMING. WE THINK ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING
AT KING AND YONGE. WE THINK ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING
ON BLOOR STREET. WE THINK ABOUT WHERE THE
BASEBALL STADIUM IS. THOSE PARTS OF THE CITY THAT
BELONG TO EVERYBODY, NOT
NECESSARILY JUST THE PEOPLE WHO OWN OR WHO LIVE IN HOUSES. >> Steve: FOLLOW UP ON THAT
THEN. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT'S
HAPPENING AT YONGE AND KING OR
YONGE AND EG OR NEAR THE SKYDOME -- ROGERS CENTRE,
WHATEVER. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, WHAT
ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT OR
REFERRING TO? >> Christopher: YOU JUST
TOUCHED ON ONE OF THE POINTS I
WANTED TO MAKE WHICH IS I BELIEVE THAT THE CITY IS UNDER
SUCH PRESSURE TO CHANGE. THE PACE OF CHANGE IS SO FAST
THAT NOBODY -- I SHOULD SAY NOT
NOBODY, BUT WE FEEL AN INCREASING SENSE OF ALIENATION. WE FEEL UNTETHERED. AND WHEN YOU JUST MENTIONED
SKYDOME, THE NAMES OF PUBLIC
BUILDINGS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THAT. IT STARTED AS SKYDOME. THEN IT BECAME SOMETHING ELSE. AND NOW IT'S ROGERS CENTRE. THE O'KEEFE CENTRE BEING
HUMMINGBIRD. I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT IS
RIGHT NOW. EVERYTHING IS UP FOR SALE. EVERYTHING IS UP FOR GRABS. YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GOING TO MOVE
ONTARIO PLACE NOW --
>> Steve: EVEN THE LEAFS DON'T PLAY IN MAPLE LEAFS GARDENS
ANYMORE? WE SOUND LIKE A COUPLE OF FOGEYS
HERE. CAN I READ THIS HERE? THIS IS FROM A PUBLICATION
CALLED STOREYS, S-T-O-R-E-Y-S. >> Christopher: I WRITE FOR
IT. >> Steve: WELL, COINCIDENCE OF
COINCIDENCES, I AM ABOUT TO
QUOTE FROM YOU. >> Christopher: OH, GREAT. >> Steve: HERE'S A PIECE THAT
CHRISTOPHER RECENTLY WROTE AND,
SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD, BRING THIS UP AND I'LL READ ALONG FOR
THOSE LISTENING ON PODCAST. >> Christopher: WOW. >> Steve: HE WROTE THAT. >> Mary: HE DID. >> Steve: WHAT DO YOU THINK
ABOUT THAT? >> Mary: HE'S PRETTY DAMN
ELOQUENT. THERE'S A REASON HE WAS A
JOURNALIST FOR ALL THOSE YEARS. YOU'RE TALKING TO TWO OLDER
WHITE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED HERE
FOR A COUPLE OF DECADES -- I MOVED AROUND. WE NEED TO TALK TO ALL SORTS OF
OTHER PEOPLE. THEY MAY GO TO SEE AN EVENT AT A
HOCKEY GAME, A CULTURAL EVENT,
THE BALLET, AND THEY'RE COMING FROM OTHER PARTS, THEY MAY BE
VISITING. THEIR EXPERIENCE OF THE CITY IS
QUITE DIFFERENT I THINK THAN
PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO WRING THEIR HANDS AND SAY IT'S NOT THE
WAY IT USED TO BE -- JUST A SEC,
CHRIS. WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT -- I
DON'T KNOW IF I AGREE THEY COME
AND DON'T LOOK AT CERTAIN PARTS OF THE CITY. A LOT OF PEOPLE COME TO VISIT
FAMILY, FOR INSTANCE, AND THEY
MAY BE IN SCARBOROUGH OR NORTH YORK OR WESTON AND THEY HAVE
LANDMARKS THERE THAT ARE PART OF
THE FABRIC OF THAT NEIGHBOURHOOD. THE CHALLENGE WE'VE GOT IS WE'RE
ACCOMMODATING TENS OF THOUSANDS
OF PEOPLE COMING IN EVERY YEAR AND HOW ARE WE GOING TO
ACCOMMODATE GROWTH. AS YOU SAID IN THE PREAMBLE, THE
ONTARIO GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN A
POSITION ABOUT TRYING TO OPEN UP THE CAPACITY TO BUILD MORE
UNITS, AND SO THERE'S GOING TO
BE NEIGHBOURHOOD CHANGE. AND THE CHALLENGE I THINK WE
FACE AT THE CANADIAN URBAN
INSTITUTE, ACROSS THE COUNTRY, IS HOW DO YOU BALANCE INPUT FROM
LOCAL FOLKS WHO ACTUALLY HAVE A
VESTED INTEREST IN THE QUALITY OF THE BUILT ENVIRONMENT AND THE
NEED OF THE FUTURE PEOPLE THAT
ARE COMING. >> Steve: DOES OUR FEAR OF THE
KIND OF CHANGE THAT YOU
REFERENCED IN THAT EXCERPT THAT I READ LEAD TO AND RESULT IN
MORE NIMBYISM IN THIS CITY WHERE
NOBODY WANTS ANYTHING BUILT IN THEIR BACK YARD? >> Christopher: WELL, I THINK
IT CERTAINLY ENCOURAGES THAT. IT SETS THE STAGE FOR NIMBYISM
THAT IS WORSE THAN WE'VE EVER
HAD BEFORE. I THINK MARY MAKES SOME GOOD
POINTS. BUT I WOULD SAY TO HER THE FACT
THAT I'M OLD AND WHITE AND MALE
HAS RELATIVELY LITTLE TO DO WITH WHAT I'M SAYING. I LOOK AT AREAS LIKE THORNCLIFFE
PARK, THAT ARE VERY IMMIGRANT
HEAVY NEIGHBOURHOODS, THE NEIGHBOURHOOD AROUND THE ONTARIO
SCIENCE CENTRE, AND THOSE PEOPLE
WHO ARE PROBABLY NOT BORN IN TORONTO OR IN CANADA FEEL STRONG
ATTACHMENTS TO THEIR
NEIGHBOURHOODS AND THEY DON'T WANT THE CHANGES THAT ARE BEING
FOISTED UPON THEM EITHER. AND I THINK THE THING IS THAT OF
COURSE WE ALL EXPECT CHANGE. AND CHANGE CAN BE GOOD. I THINK CHANGE IS ABSOLUTELY
DESPERATELY NEEDED IN A CITY
LIKE TORONTO. BUT THE TYPE OF CHANGE THAT
WE'RE EXPERIENCING HERE AND THE
RATE AT WHICH WE ARE EXPERIENCING IT MAKES PEOPLE
FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE AND IT MAKES
THEM SUSPICIOUS. >> Steve: CAN I PICK UP ON
THAT WITH YOU, MARY? WE'RE TALKING MOSTLY ABOUT
TORONTO SO FAR. BUT OTTAWA IS A BIG CITY. MISSISSAUGA IS A BIG CITY. HAMILTON IS A BIG CITY. BRAMPTON IS A BIG CITY. ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS WE'RE
DISCUSSING HERE THE SAME ISSUES
IN OTHER BIG CITIES AS WELL? >> Mary: NOBODY WANTS CHANGE,
IT'S AN ADAGE WE CAN JUST DRINK
COFFEE ON AND KNOW IS TRUE. THE QUESTION IS, HOW DO WE
ACTUALLY ENCOURAGE DEVELOPMENT
TO MAKE SOME SENSE? I THINK THAT'S PART OF WHAT
YOU'RE SAYING, CHRIS. >> Christopher: IT IS. >> Mary: IT'S HAPPENING SO
QUICKLY. THERE'S A PERCEPTION PEOPLE
HAVE -- WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
HOW GRUMPY PEOPLE ARE AT THE MOMENT. IT'S BECAUSE SO MUCH IS
HAPPENING. THE CONSTRUCTION IS HAPPENING. THERE'S THIS CRANE AND THAT
CRANE AND WE'VE GOT INFLATION,
ALL THESE OTHER PRESSURES. I THINK THE DILEMMA POST COVID
IS THAT MORE PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO
WORK FROM HOME. THERE'S TONS OF PEOPLE THAT
STILL GO INTO THEIR OFFICES OR
TO THEIR WORK PLACES. SO WE STILL NEED VIBRANT
NEIGHBOURHOODS AND VIBRANT
PLACES WHERE YOU WORK. AND THE BALANCING OF THAT IS
GOING TO BE TRICKY. I THINK ONE OF THE VACUUMS WE
SOMETIMES HAVE IS WE DON'T HAVE
SORT OF PUBLIC LEADERSHIP THAT'S POSITIVE ABOUT HOW YOU COPE. I WAS THINKING IN LONDON WHEN
THEY WENT THROUGH FOUR AND A
HALF OR FIVE YEARS OF THEIR ENORMOUS TRANSIT INVESTMENT, AND
IT WAS AWFUL WHEN THAT WAS GOING
ON. >> Steve: NOW THEY HAVE THE
LINE. >> Mary: NOW THEY HAVE
SOMETHING GORGEOUS. HOW DO WE CONTINUE TO ENCOURAGE
PEOPLE TO THINK IN THE LONG
TERM. WHAT I HEAR FROM CHRIS IS THAT
THERE IS A LEVEL OF DISTRUST,
RIGHT? THEY WON'T TRUST THAT EVENTUALLY
WE'LL GET THROUGH IT? >> Steve: GO AHEAD. >> Christopher: IF YOU LOOK AT
DEVELOPMENT IN TORONTO AND
PLANNING IN TORONTO, WHICH IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE
ARCHITECTURE AND EVERYTHING ELSE
THAT WE THINK OF WHEN WE THINK OF CHARM, MOST OF IT IS
PIECEMEAL. THE CITY PLANNING IS ONE
BUILDING AT A TIME. EVERYTHING IS PLANNED AND
APPROVED OR NOT IN ISOLATION OF
EVERYTHING ELSE. THE ONE PART OF THE CITY THAT
HAS BEEN DONE WELL I WOULD SAY
AND WHICH IS AN EXAMPLE THAT WE SHOULD ALL FOLLOW AND WHICH
OFFERS HOPE AND OPTIMISM FOR THE
FUTURE OF TORONTO IS THE WATERFRONT. WHY? BECAUSE WATERFRONT TORONTO
STARTED, YOU KNOW, IN 2020 --
NO, NO, NO -- 2000, SORRY. TWENTY YEARS AGO. AND THEY SPENT THE FIRST TWO OR
THREE YEARS PLANNING THE WHOLE
WATERFRONT FROM SCARBOROUGH OVER TO ETOBICOKE. THEY DIVIDED IT INTO A SERIES OF
PRECINCTS. AND THE PLAN FOR EACH PRECINCT
WAS PUT OUT FOR INTERNATIONAL
COMPETITION. SO WE HAD THE BEST PLANNERS IN
THE WORLD IN TORONTO WORKING ON
THE WATERFRONT. NOW, DOUG FORD AT THE TIME WAS
SAYING, IT'S A BOONDOGGLE,
THERE'S NOTHING GOING ON, I HAVEN'T SEEN A THING IN THREE
YEARS? NO. BECAUSE THEY HAD THE WHOLE THING
PLANNED OUT. NOW WHEN THE DEVELOPERS GO DOWN
THERE THEY KNOW ON SITE 35B,
THEY'RE ENTITLED TO BUILD 35-STOREY BUILDING AND IT MUST
BE MADE OF SUSTAINABLE MATERIAL. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE ALL THOSE
WOOD CONSTRUCTION BUILDINGS DOWN
THERE. IT HAS TO BE LEED PLATINUM,
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. SO THE CONDITIONS ARE SET. AND IT'S PLANNED AS A COMMUNITY,
AS A WHOLE UNIT. NOT JUST (ONOMATOPOEIA) LIKE
THAT. >> Steve: HAVING SAID THAT,
WELL, YOU TELL ME. I TALK TO PEOPLE WHO SAY THERE'S
A SENSE AROUND THIS TOWN THAT
EVERYTHING IS GOING UP SO MUCH SO FAST ALL AT ONCE. THE CUMULATIVE IMPACT OF IT IS,
IS TO GIVE ONE A SENSE THAT THE
PLACE IS A LITTLE OUT OF CONTROL RIGHT NOW. DO YOU NOT FEEL THAT? >> Mary: I MEAN, I DO SENSE
THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE FEELING
THAT. THERE'S A LOT OF STURM UND DRANG
ABOUT IT. I THINK ONE OF THE CHALLENGES
WE'VE GOT, IF YOU LOOK TOWARDS
THE WEST SIDE OF THE CITY AND YOU SAY HOW ALL THOSE CONDOS
SUDDENLY SEEMED TO GO UP ALONG
THE GARDINER, AND YOU THINK, WELL, WHERE WAS THE PUBLIC REALM
INVESTMENT? DID WE ANCHOR THOSE DEVELOPMENTS
AROUND SHARED SERVICES AND
SHARED AMENITIES SO PEOPLE HAVE A CONCERN, DID WE GET THE
SCHOOLS RIGHT? DID WE GET THE PARKS RIGHT? SO I THINK THERE'S AN ANXIETY
THAT'S CONTRIBUTED TO THERE. I WOULD SAY, CHRIS, THAT ONE OF
THE DILEMMAS WE HAVE -- THE
WATERFRONT HAS TAKEN A LONG TIME AND PEOPLE HAVE BEEN GROUCHY
ABOUT HOW LONG IT'S TAKEN,
RIGHT? >> Steve: 40 YEARS. WE'VE BEEN AT IT FOR 40 YEARS. >> Mary: BUT IF YOU LOOK AT
FOR INSTANCE REGENT PARK --
>> Christopher: TWENTY YEARS. BECAUSE I'M TALKING ABOUT
WATERFRONT TORONTO. CAN I JUST MAKE ONE OTHER QUICK
POINT? THE OTHER THING THEY DID THAT
WAS QUITE BRILLIANT, BECAUSE IT
WAS A SORT OF SEMI-INDUSTRIAL WASTELAND DOWN THERE. I KNOW BECAUSE THE STAR BUILDING
WAS DOWN THERE. I WATCHED IT OUT OF MY WINDOW --
>> Mary: YOU USED TO TREAD
THOSE FIELDS. >> Christopher: YES, TRIP OVER
THOSE FIELDS. BUT THE FIRST THING THEY BUILT
THAT PEOPLE COULD SEE WAS SUGAR
BEACH, SHERBOURNE COMMON, PLACES LIKE THAT. SO PEOPLE COULD SUDDENLY THINK,
OH, MY --
>> Mary: PUBLIC REALM. >> Christopher: THEY FOCUSED
ON THE PUBLIC REALM AND PEOPLE
COULD SUDDENLY THINK, YOU KNOW WHAT? I COULD LIVE HERE. I CAN SUDDENLY SEE THIS IN A
DIFFERENT WAY. IT'S NOT JUST A PLACE I DRIVE
THROUGH ON MY MAY TO SOMEWHERE
ELSE. IT'S A PLACE I WOULD LIKE TO
STAY NOW. AND THE EMPHASIS IS COMPLETELY
THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE'RE
DOING. AND WHEN POOR JOHN TORY DECIDED
HE WAS GOING TO BUILD RAIL DECK
PARK, 21 ACRES, AND THEN IT TURNED OUT, OH, NO, YOU CAN'T DO
THAT. THE CONDO DEVELOPERS ALREADY OWN
THE LAND. >> Mary: ISN'T THAT ONE OF THE
CHALLENGES? YOU SAID THE WATERFRONT, IT WAS
KIND OF AN OPEN -- AND THEY'RE
TAKING THEIR TIME DOING IT. REGENT PARK IS ANOTHER WHERE
THEY RAZED SEVERAL SITES AND
THEN BUILT SOMETHING UP. THE DILEMMA THAT YOU'RE SPEAKING
ABOUT, STEVE, THAT MOST
TORONTONIANS ARE DEALING WITH, IS THAT THEY'RE IN A
NEIGHBOURHOOD THAT'S ALREADY
BUILT UP IN SOME WAY. SO HOW DO YOU INCREASE THE
DENSITY? HOW DO YOU TAKE MAIN STREETS,
FOR INSTANCE, THAT HAVE
INTERESTING RETAIL AT THE GROUND FLOOR AND HAVE TWO OR THREE
STOREYS ABOVE WITH INTERESTING
HOUSING -- >> Steve: WE HAVE SOME
SUGGESTIONS HERE, ACTUALLY. >> Mary: LET'S HAVE A LOOK. >> Steve: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT
A PART OF THIS CITY -- AGAIN FOR
THOSE LIVING OUTSIDE THE CITY, WE'RE GOING TO GO TO THE
JUNCTION NOW. THE JUNCTION IS IN THE WEST END. WE'RE GOING TO FIRST SHOW --
THIS IS A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT
PICTURES OF DIFFERENT STUFF GOING UP. THIS IS A PHOTO FROM GERLACH
CALLED JUNCTION POINT. IT'S A MID-RISE BUILDING, EIGHT
STOREYS, 111 UNITS, DUNDAS
STREET WEST. AN AUTO BODY SHOP USED TO BE ON
THAT SITE. SO I GUESS WE CAN INFER FROM
THAT THAT THIS IS A BETTER USE
FOR THAT SITE THAN SIMPLY AN AUTO BODY SHOP BECAUSE LOTS OF
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LIVE HERE. STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION. FOR THOSE WHO CAN'T SEE BECAUSE
YOU'RE LISTENING ON PODCAST,
THIS IS A TRIANGLE SHAPE, IT COMES TO A POINT. CHRISTOPHER, START US OFF HERE. THIS IS NOT JUST SIMPLY A
RECTANGLE OR BOX OR DROPPED INTO
A NEIGHBOURHOOD SOMEWHERE, IT'S A BIT INTERESTING LOOKING. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT IT? >> Christopher: I LIKE IT. I WROTE ABOUT THIS BUILDING WHEN
IT WAS FIRST MENTIONED. THERE'S A LOT OF DRAMA IN THIS
BUILDING. THAT POINT, YOU CAN'T IGNORE
THAT. IT ALMOST COULD BE DANGEROUS,
IT'S SO SHARP. THERE'S ANOTHER BUILDING LIKE
THIS DOWN ON MILL STREET. THE INTERESTING THING HERE,
STEVE, IS ALSO THAT IT'S A
MID-RISE BUILDING. EIGHT STOREYS. THAT'S A REALLY NICE HEIGHT. AND THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF
OPPORTUNITIES IN NEIGHBOURHOODS
AND ON MAIN STREETS WHERE BUILDINGS LIKE THIS ONE, OR AT
LEAST THIS SIZE, COULD BE BUILT
AND ENHANCE THE NEIGHBOURHOOD. THERE'S ROOM FOR RETAIL AT THE
STREET LEVEL. THERE'S ROOM FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME
WHO HAVE A HOUSE, YOU KNOW, WITH
ALL THESE BEDROOMS THAT ARE EMPTY. I MEAN, I HAVEN'T BEEN TO THE
THIRD FLOOR OF MY HOUSE IN SIX
MONTHS BECAUSE I HAVE NO NEED TO GO THERE. SO WOULDN'T IT BE NICE IF I
COULD LIVE IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD,
I COULD STAY THERE AND LIVE IN A PLACE -- THEY'RE SO USEFUL. BUT DEVELOPERS DON'T LIKE THEM
BECAUSE THERE'S NOT AS MUCH
MONEY TO BE MADE. THEY'RE JUST DIFFICULT, JUST
AWKWARD. THEY REQUIRE JUST AS MUCH
APPROVAL AND RED TAPE AND SO ON,
BUT THERE'S MUCH LESS PAYOFF IN THE END. >> Steve: LET ME SHOW MARY THE
NEXT PICTURE. THAT ONE IS JUNCTION POINT. THIS ONE IS JUNCTION HOUSE. SAME NEIGHBOURHOOD. LOW-RISE. NEON SIGN ON THE ROOF. KIND OF COOL. THAT'S THE SIGNALLING THE ENTRY
POINT TO THE NEIGHBOURHOOD, YOU
KNOW? THIS IS NINE STOREYS. WHITE AND RED BRICK. IS IT BIGGER ON THE TOP THAN ON
THE BOTTOM? IT KIND OF CONVEYS THAT LOOK
ABOUT IT, THAT IT'S NOT JUST A
BOX. IT'S GOT SOME CONTEXT TO IT. I DON'T KNOW. MARY, WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> Mary: A COUPLE THINGS. TALKING ABOUT SPECIFIC PROJECTS,
AND I DON'T KNOW THE SPECIFICS
OF EITHER OF THESE PROJECTS. BUT YOU CAN SEE IT'S A BIT
BRUTAL THE WAY THAT BUILDING IS
MEETING WHAT THE HOUSES ARE NEXT TO IT. THAT'S A LITTLE UNFORTUNATE, BUT
IT COULD JUST BE THE PHOTO. HERE IS ONE OF THE CHALLENGES
THAT CHRIS IS SPEAKING TO. WHEN YOU SEE THE MID-RISE STUFF
GO UP, IT'S OFTEN VERY FORMULAIC
AND PRETTY DULL AND AGAIN LOOK THE SAME REPEATEDLY. I'M A LITTLE MORE SYMPATHETIC
THAT I THINK WHAT HAPPENS IS THE
DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY GETS A PATTERN AND A DESIGN THAT THEY
KNOW THE CITY WILL APPROVE AND
IT'S JUST EASIER TO GET IT APPROVED, RATHER THAN THAT KIND
OF INITIATIVE, THE FIRST YOU ONE
YOU SHOWED, WHICH WAS KIND OF INTERESTING, HAD SOME
INTERESTING ARCHITECTURAL
ELEMENTS. THAT'S THE FIRST THING. SO I THINK VARIETY IS A REALLY
IMPORTANT THING AND I DON'T KNOW
QUITE HOW TO GET IT. >> Steve: SHELDON, PUT THAT
PIC BACK UP AGAIN IF YOU CAN FOR
A SECOND? I APPRECIATE THAT IT'S QUITE
DIFFERENT FROM THE HOUSES NEXT
DOOR. BUT THE IDEA I THINK WAS TO
CONVEY A KIND OF GRITTY
WAREHOUSE. >> Mary: YEAH, YEAH. LISTEN, I DON'T WANT TO BE
PARTICULARLY CRITICAL OF THESE
INDIVIDUAL PROJECTS. JUST A SEC, CHRIS. ONE OF THE DILEMMAS WE HAVE HERE
IS WE CAN'T SEE THE CONTEXT, AND
SO CHRIS AND I ARE ARGUING SO MUCH OF IT IS ABOUT PUBLIC REALM
AROUND IT. ONE CAUTIONARY COMMENT I HAVE
ABOUT THESE UNITS AND THESE
DEVELOPMENTS -- AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS -- BUT IF YOU
THINK ABOUT, IF THERE WERE PRIOR
TO THIS, IF THERE HAD BEEN TYPICAL MAIN STREET RETAIL ON
THE MAIN FLOOR AND THAT GETS
KNOCKED DOWN AND YOU INTENSIFY THE HOUSING UNITS, YOU LOSE THE
HOUSES THAT WERE ABOVE THE STORE
THAT ARE GENERALLY AFFORDABLE AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO PUT
MOM AND POP INDEPENDENT RETAIL
INTO THAT KIND OF A DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE OF THE COST OF THESE
THINGS. YOU TEND TO GET CHAINS. SO I THINK WE'VE GOT TO THINK
REALLY THOUGHTFULLY ABOUT NEW
MECHANISMS THAT WILL ENCOURAGE INDEPENDENT RETAIL TO LOCATE
HERE. >> Steve: LET ME PUT THAT TO
CHRISTOPHER. THERE'S A NEW THING IN TOWN --
WELL, I DON'T KNOW HOW NEW IT
IS, BUT FACADISM, WHERE YOU TAKE, IN A WAY, WHAT THEY USED
TO CALL THE AIR CANADA CENTRE,
NOW THE SCOTIABANK ARENA, IS FACADISM. YOU'VE GOT THE OLD POST OFFICE
BUILDING AT STREET LEVEL AND UP
GOES THE BIG CONSTRUCTION BEHIND THAT. WE'VE GOT ONE SIX BLOCKS NORTH
OF HERE ON MONTGOMERY STREET
WHERE THE OLD POST OFFICE IS THE FACADE AND THERE'S A BIG CONDO
TOWER THAT'S GONE UP BEHIND
THAT. IT MAINTAINS THE STREETSCAPE,
THE OLD STREETSCAPE WHILE AT THE
SAME TIME BUILDING LOTS OF NEW STUFF AROUND IT. WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> Christopher: FOR THE MOST
PART IT DOESN'T WORK, BUT THERE
ARE EXAMPLES WHERE IT DOES. AIR CANADA CENTRE IS ONE OF THEM
-- WHATEVER IT'S CALLED. >> Steve: SCOTIABANK ARENA. >> Christopher: SCOTIABANK
ARENA. BECAUSE IT'S MAINTAINED AT A
SCALE THAT'S BIG ENOUGH TO STILL
HAVE THE ORIGINAL IMPACT. AND THERE'S ANOTHER STRETCH ON
THE WEST SIDE OF YONGE SOUTH OF
WELLINGTON, THE BCE PLACE, IT USED TO BE CALLED, A WHOLE ROW
OF 19TH CENTURY RETAIL
BUILDINGS. NOTHING ESPECIALLY FANCY. BUT IT WORKS BECAUSE IT'S A
WHOLE BLOCK. BUT TOO OFTEN IT'S JUST A
QUESTION OF SOME POOR FACADE
THAT'S KIND OF BEEN SQUEEZED INTO THE -- LIKE THE BAY
ADELAIDE CENTRE. IT'S TERRIBLE! YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT FAIR, I DON'T
THINK, TO THE NEW BUILDING AND
IT'S NOT FAIR TO THE OLD BUILDING. THEY BOTH END UP WITH THE WORST
OF BOTH WORLDS, IT SEEMS TO ME. >> Steve: WE HAVE ANOTHER
EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING HERE. IT'S A FAKE FACADE. SHELDON, COULD YOU BRING THIS
UP? PIC 7. THIS IS KIND OF TRYING TO CREATE
FAKE CHARACTER WITH A NEWLY
BUILT OLD-LOOKING FACADE AT STREET LEVEL AND THEN A SORT OF
MODERN GLEAMING CONDO ON TOP OF
THAT. THIS IS COLLEGE STREET, EAST OF
SPADINA, DOWNTOWN TORONTO, THREE
STOREYS OF A FACADE MEANT TO LOOK OLD AND THE REST A NEW
TOWER ON TOP OF THAT. MARY, WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> Mary: YOU KNOW, THESE
ATTEMPTS AT WHAT WE WOULD CALL
FAUX -- >> Steve: FAUX IS BETTER THAN
FAKE. >> Mary: SAME IDEA, THOUGH. YOU KNOW THE OLD ADAGE, THE
GREENEST BUILDING IS THE ONE
ALREADY BUILT. WOULD YOU RATHER SEE ADAPTIVE
REUSE OF AN EXISTING STRUCTURE
AND INTENSIFY AROUND IT? YES. IT'S SO HARD TO DO THIS WELL,
EH, CHRIS? >> Christopher: IT'S A MESS. THE BUILDING YOU SHOWED IS A
MESS. THINK OF KING STREET WEST FROM
LET'S SAY SPADINA EAST TO --
WHAT? -- UNIVERSITY. A LOT OF THOSE OLD WAREHOUSES,
FACTORIES EVEN, HAVE BEEN SAVED
AND THEY BECOME OFFICE BUILDINGS, THEY BECOME LOFTS,
THEY BECOME ART GALLERIES, THEY
BECOME RESTAURANTS. THEY ARE SO FLEXIBLE. AND, YOU KNOW, I SOMETIMES THINK
THAT THE BEST THINK AN ARCHITECT
COULD DO IS JUST TO BUILD FLEXIBLE SPACE BECAUSE THEN --
>> Mary: IT CAN BE REPURPOSED. >> Christopher: ABSOLUTELY. EACH GENERATION WANTS SOMETHING
DIFFERENT. NEIGHBOURHOODS CHANGE. WE DON'T HAVE INDUSTRY HAPPENING
ANYMORE IN TORONTO, BUT WE CAN
STILL USE THOSE BUILDINGS. >> Mary: THAT'S WHAT'S
HAPPENING DOWNTOWN. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE A
REPURPOSING OF SOME OF THOSE
COMMERCIAL -- >> Steve: THERE IS NO BIGGER
CHANGE HAPPENING IN ANY
NEIGHBOURHOOD IN THIS CITY THAN 50 METRES OUTSIDE THIS STUDIO. EXACTLY, YONGE AND EGLINTON. ONE MORE PICTURE, SHELDON. PICTURE 8. YONGE AND EGLINTON. THERE ARE MORE CRANES AT YONGE
AND EGLINTON THAN THE ENTIRE
CITY OF BOSTON, SO SAYS JENNIFER KEESMAAT. YOU KNOW, WHEN IT'S DONE, THERE
ARE LITERALLY BILLIONS AND
BILLIONS DOLLARS' WORTH OF CONDO UNITS GOING UP AT YONGE AND
EGLINTON, THIS IS $12 BILLION
LRT GOING EAST-WEST ALONG YONGE AND EGLINTON, THE SUBWAY IS
ALREADY THERE, THEY'RE REDOING
THE SUBWAY PLATFORMS THERE. WHEN IT'S DONE, IF IT'S DONE, I
MEAN, THIS SHOULD BE PRETTY
COOL, DON'T YOU THINK, MARY, AT SOME POINT? >> Mary: ABSOLUTELY. BUT, BOY, YOU HAVE TO BE
PATIENT, DON'T YOU? >> Steve: YOU DO. >> Mary: WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
HOW PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THIS
NEIGHBOURHOOD AND HAVE BEEN HERE 20 YEARS, THEIR CHILDREN HAVE
ONLY KNOWN CONSTRUCTION ZONES. SO THE LEVEL OF PATIENCE THAT'S
REQUIRED. WHAT YOU JUST HAVE TO HOPE,
FINGERS CROSSED, THAT THE BETS
THEY MADE IN TERMS OF HOW THEY ACTUALLY APPROVE THESE VARIOUS
BUILDINGS AND IF THEY'VE MADE
SUFFICIENT INVESTMENT IN THE PUBLIC REALM, THAT IT WILL FIT
TOGETHER. BUT THAT BEING SAID, YOU KNOW
WHAT? IT WILL OPEN AND IT WILL FEEL
NOT QUITE DONE AND IT WILL FEEL
TOO STERILE, AND THEN OVER TIME, TIME IS THE FRIEND OF
NEIGHBOURHOODS --
>> Christopher: TIME IS THE GREAT HEALER OF NEIGHBOURHOODS. >> Mary: IT IS. >> Christopher: BUT YOU KNOW
WHAT, STEVE? THE WORK WILL NEVER STOP. THAT'S THE THING. I MEAN, IT WAS -- I REMEMBER
WHEN THE MINTO BUILDINGS WERE
BUILT ACROSS THE ROAD FROM HERE. THERE WAS A HUGE OUTCRY. AND MARY IS RIGHT, PEOPLE GOT
USED TO IT. THEY DID SOME NICE THINGS. THEY PUT THAT LITTLE PASSAGEWAY. >> Steve: BETWEEN THERE. >> Christopher: YEAH. AND A NEW TRAFFIC LIGHT --
>> Steve: CHRISTOPHER, I
REMEMBER DAVID CROMBIE WAS A GUEST ON THIS PROGRAM JUST AFTER
THOSE BUILDINGS WERE BUILT,
MR. 40-FOOT BY-LAW, RIGHT? I ASKED WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE
SKYSCRAPERS? HE SAID I LOVE 'EM. IN FACT I BOUGHT ONE. PUT THAT UP, SHELDON, PICTURE 8. THIS IS A FUTURISTIC LOOK OF
WHAT YONGE AND EG COULD LOOK AT. TORONTOREALTYBOUTIQUE.COM IF YOU
WANT TO LOOK AT MORE OF THIS. SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE USED TO
BE A THREE-STOREY, THE BEST OF
EAST GERMAN ARCHITECTURE, WHERE YOU USED TO GET YOUR OHIP CARD
RENEWED. YOU ARE KNOW WHAT THAT BUILDING
WAS CALLED? IT WAS CALLED ONTARIO GOVERNMENT
BUILDING. [LAUGHTER]
>> Steve: HOW IS THAT FOR A
FANCY CREATIVE DYNAMIC TITLE? NOW WE'VE GOT THE MINTO TOWERS
THERE WHICH ARE SO MUCH BETTER. >> Christopher: THAT'S A GOOD
THING. I'M NOT SAYING IT ISN'T. BUT I THINK THE POINT HERE IS
THAT WHAT DICTATES DEVELOPMENT
AND GROWTH IN TORONTO TOO MUCH, TO TOO GREAT AN EXTENT, IS THE
VALUE OF PROPERTY. EVERYTHING IS REDUCED TO ITS
VALUE AS A PIECE OF PROPERTY. AND THAT'S WHY THE CONSTRUCTION
WILL NEVER STOP. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHEN
THE MINTO BUILDINGS WENT UP, BUT
IT WAS QUITE A WHILE AGO. I WOULD THINK 20-ODD YEARS. >> Steve: NOT QUITE THAT LONG. >> Christopher: 15 TO 20,
OKAY. AND THAT WAS ONE BIG HUGE
PROJECT. NOW THEY'RE GOING ON AT
DAVISVILLE ALL THE WAY UP. WHEN THE SUBWAY IS DONE, THE
PLAZA, WHATEVER IT IS, ON THE
NORTHWEST CORNER WILL HAVE TO GO, AND I'M SURE THEY'RE ALREADY
THINKING --
>> Steve: WE'RE HERE ON THE SOUTHWEST CORNER AND THEY HAVE
$2 BILLION WORTH OF PLANS FOR
THIS PLACE. >> Mary: BUT THIS IS NOT
UNIQUE TO TORONTO. I LIVED IN NEW YORK FOR YEARS,
AND THIS IS THE SAME CHALLENGE. >> Christopher: I'M NOT SAYING
IT IS. >> Mary: THE CONCERN ABOUT THE
REAL ESTATE AND INVESTMENT
COMMUNITY HAVING TOO MUCH SAY. HERE'S ONE OF THE THINGS WE NEED
TO THINK ABOUT. HOW ARE WE GOING TO FIND WAYS TO
MEASURE THE CUMULATIVE IMPACT OF
THIS KIND OF INTENSIFICATION? WHAT ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS
THAT WE SHOULD BE WATCHING FOR? AND, SIMILARLY, WHAT KIND OF
POLICY TOOLS NEED TO BE PUT IN
PLACE FOR THE CITY TO BE ABLE TO EXERT SOME KIND OF MEASURE OF
MONITORING AND CONTROL --
>> Steve: WHO IS GOING TO BE THE NEW MAYOR RESPONSIBLE FOR IT
ALL? >> Mary: OH, YES, AND WHAT
ABOUT LEADERSHIP? I ALSO THINK IT'S A LARGE PART
ABOUT BUREAUCRACIES AND SYSTEMS
AND THE CIVIL SERVICE -- >> Christopher: DON'T YOU
THINK THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS
COIN IS THE FACT THAT RENTS HAVE GONE THROUGH THE ROOF IN TORONTO
AND THERE'S A KIND OF INSECURITY
ANXIETY, PANIC THAT PEOPLE HAVE. I HEAR ABOUT IT ALL THE TIME. THEY DON'T KNOW IF THEY WILL BE
ABLE TO AFFORD THE RENT NEXT
MONTH. THERE ARE TWO RENT STRIKES GOING
ON IN THE CITY RIGHT NOW. THAT'S THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS
OUT-OF-CONTROL DEVELOPMENT. YOU KNOW, REAL ESTATE AND
HOUSING ARE HOMES FOR PEOPLE,
BUT IT'S BEEN REDUCED TO A COMMODITY LIKE SO MANY OTHER
THINGS. >> Steve: WELL, I SUGGEST THAT
WE RECONVENE THIS GROUP IN 10
YEARS AND SEE HOW YONGE AND EGLINTON AND SOME OTHER PARTS OF
THE CITY HAVE GONE IN THE
INTERVENING DECADE. WHAT DO YOU THINK? ARE YOU IN? >> Christopher: IF I'M STILL
ALIVE, I'M IN. >> Steve: FROM YOUR LIPS TO
GOD'S EARS. CHRISTOPHER HUME, MARY ROWE,
THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON
TVO TONIGHT. >> Christopher: THANKS, STEVE.
