How to Forgive When You Can't Forget

so let me begin with a uh a story if it was more academic i would call it a case study and call it a story a good a good jewish story i deal with many different people a council and a coach and obviously one of the big issues people struggle with is grievances grievances they have that sometimes are legitimate sometimes are not legitimate to be perfectly frank but they live with it and it can consume you like a cancer i hope nobody here has this in their spirit but you know if you have something that you feel you've been hurt some person has in some way wounded you and you feel it's almost to the point of unforgivable it's not easy to just get rid of so i'm not going to go around the room and ask if anybody has that i don't think that you know if it was more of a group therapy maybe we'd do that if you insist on doing it i'm not going to stop you but from my end it's fine we speak the ideas and we hope that it will be applicable every person in their own way but obviously the topic is much larger than just grievance and forgiveness and forgetting and so on so let me just begin with one of one powerful story that happened with me personally where i had to deal with a young woman who grew up in a very dysfunctional home abused by her parents in more ways than one physically emotionally hemosexually and it was a let's put it this way it was not in her mind it was not in her imagination she truly was hurt where anyone hearing it would say she experienced a personal holocaust and uh and how do you how do you address something like that and just tell somebody move on grow transcend so that's nice words when you haven't experienced it but anyone that's hurt has been hurt emotionally knows it's not something you can just tell someone to move on many people want to move on but they can't move on because they are squanted by the nightmares they're haunted by the different impacts lack of trust i mean the implications of being hurt especially when you're young especially in a profound way by people that are supposed to love you is not a simple matter so i don't know if you i'm happy to be getting into something so heavy but everybody here is over 18 adults we can talk about some painful things it's part of reality of life so she came to me she knows me a number of years she's been listening to me online and then came to some of my classes bc before corona now we're somewhere in between and there'll be a day where it'll be ac and we'll have a new era to talk about and she so she thought she could trust me so she opened up i said i really it it affects every aspect of my life i can't find healthy relationships because it always comes back to me can i trust this person i'm always testing people i have challenges in every area that are but won't consider to be intimate personal commitment trust love yeah yes i get by i have a good job i'm secure and i feel financially and at material level things are working fine but on an internal level and every type of therapy i've tried has not worked so what do you say any ideas and obviously i'm going to share what i have to say but my point that i'm saying it's not easy if you really identify with someone empathize with them you can't just say as i said before let's just move on how do you balance on one hand acknowledging and validating the feelings at the same time helping someone grow through that so i'm not going to give you a uh a type of like quick fix that i said something and there we go overnight she was healed i know we all like happy endings she still struggles but it was a living example among many that i think we can really use is something that we can all apply in our own way i'm using an extreme example obviously because because extreme examples usually make the point a more crystallized way but at the same time the fact matters even if it's not that extreme we all have a measure of elements like that where you feel well you've been you feel hurt you have uh grudge maybe resentment or anger as i said it could be legitimate maybe it's not always completely legitimate how do you deal with that and we have to always throw into the equation the fact that we're all subjective when you're subjective you have additional blind spots and biases and are you maybe overdoing it is there a way to free yourself so generally speaking in psychology you'll find that there are different schools of thought on this matter but you find an interesting twist there some people cannot get back cannot get beyond the hurt that they experienced when they were children or in any life in any environment and they just continuously carry it whatever they do they always have that element of even wanting revenge or other sentiments that are not necessarily constructive or productive then there are those that do find a way to free themselves by either completely cutting off from family members or others that have hurt them and building their own life but to say that they've healed you can't really say that they're just running the other way in other words basically think of it like a burning building there's two ways to deal with that burning building either you keep coming back and getting burned again or you run away you'll never go back but you're still impacted because the fact that you cannot go back is also shaping your life because you're still carrying it however you're running the other way so you either become what they call either an enabler or a co-dependent or you become someone so independent but you're not really independent because you've never freed yourself so in jewish thought what i want to introduce you know we're coming young kipper was just right before sukkot right just uh ten days ago something like that okay so just a few weeks ago young kippers actually means a day of atonement a day of forgiveness and it so much encapsulates what forgiveness is now many people i don't know your experiences with judaism and jewish thought but i will say share this with you and i'm sure you're familiar with some of this judaism has been around for over 3 300 years to be exact almost 3 800 years if you come from abraham now in business they say anything that lasts that long means they have something going for them right you may not know what it is but if you saw a business that if you think that apple or amazon or will be around 3 300 years from now they probably have very good mark most of us don't believe that will happen no matter how powerful they are the roman empire is stronger than any empire and there's no remnant of it they don't even know who their descendants are and here we are a nation with our challenges and with our ignorance at times and our alienations and everybody you know anyone sitting in this room obviously connects in some way but for everyone sitting here there is i would say a thousand jews that wouldn't come into a room like this uh i don't mean anything about your room i mean any type of room that has any jewish association i've had i don't know called the privilege but the but the the the opportunity to meet many jews that would never go into a synagogue or seoul or jewish or jccc or any jewish environment and the reason is because either they're completely alienated or they dismiss the whole thing as one big joke primitive etc but the fact of the matter is that these three almost 3 800 years has created a system of an approach to life that can actually tremendously help us here right now in the 21st century and a bit of a middle of a pandemic as well it's tremendous wisdom i'm not sure if you're familiar with this but the very basis of this country the united states of america which is considered the first institutionalized government that formalize the concept of civil rights of equal rights that all people are created equal i would amend the word men so it shouldn't have any wrong impression all people are created equal we all have unalienable rights where did the founding fathers get these ideas from it wasn't just became a big and innovative this is a classic biblical concept that every human being was created in a divine image and they turned it into an institution they turned it into a nation that is the most successful nation in history with all our debates and all our polarization it still remains as such and we as jews have benefited from that so they understood that wisdom you know i've always wondered there's books out there i don't know if you've ever seen a book called on two wings by michael novak the christian scholar another book the the hebrew republic these are these are academic books that make a case that the invalid fathers shape their ideas were shaped what they call torah metaphysics it's their words they use the word torah they don't even use the word bible so they clearly saw wisdom that many of us are not even aware many jews are not even aware of so the wisdom of yom kippur the wisdom of dealing with grievances dealing with forgiveness when you can't forget and related issues there's a lot of literature on this that would blow you away when you start realizing how relevant it is to the point that you start saying how did they know that a thousand years ago or three thousand years ago they didn't have it was before freud and before it before adler and before uh victor franklin before all the what we call modern psychology and yet you find tremendous wisdom so i'm gonna share what i shared with this young woman that i shared the story i told you before a story there's a story everybody knows the story the story of joseph joseph if anybody had uh grievance he had a big one he was a boy seventy-year-old teenager who was due to jealousy of his brothers because they felt their father jacob was showing favoritism so they plotted to kill him out of jealousy this is what the bible tells us they didn't end up killing it they ended up selling them into slavery now the story doesn't get better 22 years for 22 years his father thought he was dead the brothers lived with that guilt but that's what they did and he didn't end up being a slave he ended up becoming the viceroy of egypt the second in command vice president and um and what happens when they finally meet seems to be an interesting and dramatic episode what happens when they meet so we all know that joseph because he was young the brothers didn't recognize him when they came due to the famine they went down to egypt to buy green to bring back home to israel where their father jacob and their family would live joseph recognized them they didn't recognize him and this went on for a while until finally now going into all the details that moment where joseph finally cannot control himself and he reveals his identity to them now what do you think would happen this was a soap opera or a uh a film what would be the situation a man was sold to slavery for no reason he did nothing wrong his own blood brothers some half brothers his full brother was benjamin but they were still his brothers and they were great people they sold them into slavery where he could have died in a prison unknown yes and now he became a powerful man what would you do if you were in that type of power did he have any tinge of anger do you have any tinge of revenge you think he's a human being how could he not so what happens he tells them i am joseph he sends everyone out of the room it's a very moving moment sends everyone out of the room i'll just give you one one more tip that i want to add before i get to what actually happens so what really cause what provokes him to finally reveal his identity because his brother judah was actually the mastermind behind his whole conspiracy so if all the brothers judah was the worst he sees judah stands up and says when joseph says i want my i want benjamin to remain here with me so judah who had promised his father jacob that he would guarantee in benjamin's life he gets up and says no you take me benjamin has to go back to his father's he's the youngest child when joseph sees that that judah the man that conspired to kill him and settlement to slavery he couldn't control himself any longer that's the words in the bible he could not control himself and he sends everyone out of the room it reveals himself to them so here what happens most of you know probably what happens i'll just summarize when they hear that it says in the bible the torah they were shocked what are they supposed to say and they were completely at his mercy they had no way to defend it they could not bring themselves to they could just simply not deal with it when joseph seale sees how shocked they are and how disturbed they are it wasn't just to save their own skin it was their whole um you know going back 22 years it's a lifetime joseph says to them words that till this day the tells us these words have protected the jewish people in all of history because he rose to the occasion in a way that is unprecedented he said to them you did not send me here it is god that put me here in order that i bring you and our father jacob and our entire nation sustenance because if i was not here they would all die from the famine because it was joseph that masterminded the whole approach to um to store the the grain for seven years when it was plenty so when the famine struck there was grain that saved their love saved their lives he says you did not send me here god sent me here and he repeats a number of times so of course the obvious question is i mean yes joseph is on that level can any of us even imagine ourselves behaving in that way if you saw the nazis come to you and they say we want your forgiveness for what we did to your parents or your brothers and sisters our answer would be go to them and get forgiveness i hope i to forgive you for what you did the atrocities the blood-boiling atrocities and yet joseph was able to rise to this occasion so this itself is a whole study in human nature what exactly did joseph know that he was able to do that what can we learn from it i shared the story with a woman i mentioned earlier and i'll tell you what happened she started crying because she got an interesting way as angry as she was she understood she said exactly these words she says so how do i become a joseph how can i experience what he expects i would i would do anything to be able to go there i don't want to live with my parents i don't want them to be the demons in my head i have sleepless nights i can't trust and all the other consequences i would love to be like joseph so i said so let's study it together and i realized that was the opening instead of giving her advice and some type of waxing eloquent and pontificating about how to forgive and so on i said let's study the story here's a real human being in real life and as i mentioned the czar said because joseph was able to step aside and not think about himself and realize that there's a bigger picture his children and all of us today have been blessed with many blessings because he was able to suspend his own interest for the greater good now it all sounds great and romantic and and noble but as i said when it comes down to it apply it to any situation that you're angry at someone right now that may have hurt hurt you or assaulted you it's not going to be that easy just to become a joseph so what did this man know what did he know that we can learn from this goes right to the heart of yom kippur itself you know keeper of the story of yom kippur is the story of forgiveness the jewish people as a whole also did a terrible betrayal god told them do not i am your god do not build false gods well 39 days later they built the false god it's called the golden calf and um because of that moses comes back down from the mountain he sees this golden calf they're worshiping you know total betrayal a total violation total infidelity about this the story of sinai was the story of a marriage a marriage between god and the jewish people and the and this this spouse has basically cheated on her husband the jewish people on god what do you do now what do you do and it's obvious there's no escaping the facts moses of course reprimands then but he marches back before he marches back he breaks the tablets and then he marches back up on the mountain and what does he do he beseeches god he prays to god to forgive the people there's a whole chapter in the torah which i find to be one of the most powerful chapters this intimate conversation between a man like moses and god and since you're just paraphrasing moses says to god look they did a terrible crime and god says to exactly right so go build yourself another nation you're not part of this you're up in the mountain with me when all this happened and moses said no i'm not going to build another nation because all human beings are flawed you created us as not perfect human beings so i'm not defending what they did they're accountable and they're responsible but if you don't give me the ability to tell them that there's a a power of forgiveness and there's hope then there's no use the whole human race will always fail and moses for 80 days two sets of 40 days argued with god and i would have loved to be there to see exactly what happened how a man stood up to god i would not take no for an answer he would not take no for an answer and to put as i said paraphrase moses says to god forgive them you're the one that made the law you can also forgive them that day when they broke the law and god said no i created a world of cause and effect you put your hand in fire it gets burned what do you want me to do they did this to themselves i didn't do it to them that was not up to me to have free choice and moses said well you created the laws yes you can you can create a situation where even if someone puts their hand in fire they still can heal and you know what happens moses wins out it took 80 days 40 days to get the law 80 days for forgiveness and your kipp is the holiest day of the year many people have no clue why is it the holiest day of the year why that day why not why not why not why not passover is because it's the only day in history where a man prevailed over god and was able to gain the greatest gift in life i always ask people what do you think is the greatest gift people say i should have a life without any worries no the greatest gift of life is no matter what challenge you have you have the strength to be able to deal with it that's a realistic request what moses gained was the birth on your kipper of hope that's why right after khan nigeria what do we say we have to call it three times we say moses and we said that god says i have forgiven them as you have requested me to do now you can ask the question god didn't know you would forgive why did he need 80 days of moses knocking down the doors obviously god knew he would forgive but he knew he wanted a man to reach deeper and say you too have your deep love between both of you meaning people and god and if you dig deeper you'll find that love now these events that i just described the story of joseph the story of moses these are things that do not happen every day tell me how many people you know have that capacity what's so funny by the way that's what's funny you've never seen someone take a picture i was thinking maybe have something on my nose or you know everything fine alright your advice you look good so do you the people can't see you but they see me they will look great maybe later you'll pound it around um you've got a little light moment in this heavy conversation so it's got a little light yeah what touches me when i share this story and i i really is that think about a person like that living with us right now in this this morning i did an interview about how to um disagree without hate you know the relevance of course right they live in a polarized country and those is a pandemic and then there's all these things happening you don't find that people are even looking to find common denominators it's like literally different universes and i'm not even talking about which side of the aisle so we talked about that but it reminds me of these stories of men and women who were able to get beyond themselves but joseph knew the same thing with moses knew that life is not defined by the moment so even if you're insulted and even if you're hurt and even if it's deeper that doesn't define your life we define our lives the events around us do not define me what joseph was doing he didn't forgive them because he was like being passive or pleaser or wants to be agreeable and doesn't want confrontation it didn't come from weakness joseph developed those 22 years a resilience and a strength i am not going to be defined by the suffering that i endured and the jewish people have always been that way we've suffered more than any nation and yet we do not call ourselves sufferers because our experiences that you go through do not shape you i should correct myself they shape you they don't define you what defines you is who you are not what others have done to you whether it's good or for the bad that is a tremendous lesson and that's what joseph tucks reached it was actually his own dignity and pride that he was fighting for he was not going to be defined by his brothers what they did to him and that's why it wasn't difficult for him because it was his own dignity his own spiritual dignity saying oh i'm not ashamed by what you did yes you've hurt me it's between you and god between you and yourselves and your guilt and your conscience you want to know who i am i am a person who came to egypt and i discovered greatness i became a second in command and i saved the world and i'm not saying that not in an arrogant way in a humble way share a story with you that happens with my own with my father your grandfather my character is named after right and actually i've shared it because today i got an email from someone a voice note from someone and they told me how it helped them i'll share both stories with you my father passed away 15 years ago was a journalist his name is garcia jacobs in 1989 rosh hashony and kipri ended up in the hospital he had a mini stroke he suffered from diabetes and other issues he ends up in the hospital he was very close with the only the reason you're here which is to hold the laboratory um they were close on arabian kipper the day before young caper i was summoned by their oven to get a piece of lekka like as a piece of honey cake which we give each other on the day before you give her for a sweet healthy year and the rabbit told me in yiddish give this two pieces of cake give this to your father and should have a sweet and healthy year then he smiles and says to me tell your father that when he finishes the mission for which he was sent to the hospital he'll be released from there okay i made my way off right right before you kipper that early afternoon i'm off to nyu where my father was my mother was there with him you give him the cake i give them the message the ribbon-shaped okay my mother started running around if you know my mother started running around and talking to women about lighting candles i put on filling and then your her and this you know my father called her back and said you're a guest here i'm the one on the mission so it's my mission here let me do it my way you know whatever he did just to show you that this wasn't like a cute little line the day after young kipper the rubbers chief of staff his main secretary comes this is he was already old man alien but he came all the way to manhattan from crown heights and he says the rebel wants to know did you finish your mission yet now tell me something anybody goes to the hospital for missions who even wants to go to a hospital it's not exactly you go there for for a sightseeing tour but for enjoying it you go there because you have no choice my father was in danger he had a stroke that could be could have gotten worse god forbid that's where you go to the hospital and here the ribbon completely doesn't even talk about that he says no you're there for a mission you finish your mission god the only way god could have gotten you there was if you caused a stroke because he wanted you there for another reason you finish your mission and then you can leave i shared this story in the last six seven months number of times i've been speaking a lot online i shared this story because he had a pandemic everybody's got their issues i can't travel school sports restaurant i mean you all know it's affected every sector of life every aspect of life so i share this story that you know there's a god who's in control we're not the ones in control and now he doesn't want you to go to synagogue same god that wanted you to go to synagogue last year doesn't want you to go now so that means you have a mission at home or you have a mission wherever you end up you may be stranded on a desert island that's your mission is it pleasant no did we ask for it no but that's where you are so i've been sharing the story i even shared i remember speaking to a group of students kids and they related to it now is the time instead of instead of uh instead of complaining and frustrated which we all are frustrated you say okay so what am i what can i do now how can i be innovative how can i dig deeper how can i find new resources that's how leaders think and that's how the rebel was conveying to my father so i shared this story so let me just tell you the second half which is why i'm telling it to you right now so simply i mean i may have told the story anyway but this was made it really drove the point on a rabbi in boston university his name is rabbi rabbi and he left leaves me a voice message right after simple start so tutorial was some date night right sunday and monday morning i get a message from him what is his message he says i shared your story and i want to tell you something there was a young a young student who came from new york his father is in a hospital now to do the covenant issues six months memorial hospital in boston and he came to be there with him for circus wants to visit his father so he went he asked me if you could stay over we didn't really have guests then but how could i say no to someone let me say hello hi to you okay everything is a mission means i gotta take a drink okay there's a spike like since the store is still hovering um if i start sounding incoherent there will be of course they teenager 18 19 year old guy was his father was russian born he also was a russian and he came out of russia as a young kid and he said every day he would go to this walk over to the to the hospital come back and he said he ended up becoming a tremendous asset he read the torah he helped sing with people you know he became a part of the whole thing i was really very appreciative after simple story i said that and i wanted to thank him because he really helped us tremendously in the chabad house in the vu especially under the circumstances he says i don't know why your father's in the hospital but it could be and he shared the whole story that i just shared with my father it could be because you should come here and celebrate some kastura and help with so many people who want to maintain connection with you it really was really helpful so perhaps maybe that was the mission listen to this and i have a voice note so this is a true story the next day the next morning after this was the night of simple it was started and the next day the young man called rubbish and says you want to know something my father's been released from the hospital the day after simple start now i'm not going to tell you i don't know god's mysterious ways but he must wanted to share that with me and i will say this there's no question that we know today that there's psychosomatic effects they say think good it will be good some say the way they put it is the way the neurons are fired that's how they get wired i don't remember a few years a number of years ago there was a film called what the belief do we know power of attraction you have all these this stuff now i'm not talking anything magical mumbo jumbo but there's no question that attitudes change realities you think of one person lying in a hospital that god forbid has no guests no visitors no flowers no balloons nobody nobody nobody another person lying in another bed to the same hospital but has visitors and family and guests and then and they're saying that you tell me will there be a difference in these two people's healing process any doctor will tell you absolutely because one person has the willpower the encouragement and some way it affects our adrenaline affects our chemicals affects some type of effect that has on us but we have fighting power now is it a guarantee no guarantees but you can rest assured as part of the healing process another person is demoralized and feels like a victim and feels like i've known with me and no one's there for me i don't care who cares you can rest assured that person is going to give up easier you know you all know the whole henry story with the leaf right on the tree you know the story stella huh i'll tell i'll tell it i'm just so if everybody knew what i would have to say i could use the time for other stories um actually actually there's a couple i know khabar of the west village now they're they're renting from um chilling what's the name the author uh calvin schilling he lives in the home where they say that's for oh henry that was where the tree is it's a big big oak tree anyway the story goes like this it's a long story i mean it's a short story but it's a short long story that's part of that one so but the the violent punchline is this it's a guy he was in his death bed and it was really down and you know you you paint all kinds of pictures in your mind you're lying you're never lived in bed and outside the window was the summer so there was a big old tree with leaves on it and in his own mind he started identifying with the tree that as the tree begins to wither and as the leaves begin to fall in the autumn that that his own life his own his own life would also be that way and he would look at the leaves and every time he fell he felt that he was getting closer to death and then he just saw a few leaves left and he said okay this is the end one of the visitors that came to see and realize that so he went outside at night and he painted a leaf on the tree so even when all the leaves would fall there'd always be one that remains and he wouldn't know the difference that's essentially the story and as long as that leaf was there he continued to fight and he did not die i mean it's a story it's a metaphor if you wish but this these are these are realities and joseph knew this what he learned from his great father jacob who learned from isaac who learned it from abraham that you control your destiny you don't control what happens to you but you control how you're going to deal with it a good swimmer is not someone that knows how to master every storm what's different between a bad swimmer and a good sport a storm comes a mass member will fight the tide to the point of exhaustion and they can end up drowning god forbid a good swimmer if there's a storm he stops fighting you float you know you allow yourself to be carried by the flow and then when things come down you continue swimming it's all about navigation and what joseph knew was how to navigate yes he was in a deep pit literally and figuratively the worst possible way but he would not allow that to define his life so for him it wasn't a challenge to forgive it wasn't about oh you hurt me and now i'm going to forgive he was not defined by these experiences and therefore it was a situation where he very well knew what they did there and he very well knew that they deserve punishment and they would get a punishment the terrible punishment one of the prayers we say in yom kippur is that terrible the ten martyrs why are they killed by that the roman emperor had his own evil intentions but basically he said what is the law he calls the ten great scholars and says what's the law when someone sells someone else into slavery it kidnaps a person and sells them into slavery now they have to be honest so the rabbis great rabbis rubbing a keeper of ishmael the greatest sages they said if he put to death kidnapping is like murder especially with an intention to murder so the emperor with his again because he had his own intentions said well that's what your grandparents did you're the ten tribes sold their brother into slavery and they were never punished for it and they send up someone up to heaven to find out if this is true one of the saddest prayers i don't know if you ever paid attention to it and they're put to death in the most barbaric way so clearly the brothers were not exactly right what they did but joseph was not going to be part of this this does not define who he is they deserve that that would be god's choice it would not be him part of it you know the word for forgiveness in hebrew anyone knows the word for forgiveness has another meaning it means a circle it means a circle when we're born newborn children everything is like freshly fallen snow i know we're far from the snows left everything we've gone through but just as a metaphor as an example so it's like freshly frozen you're clean pure innocent the first time somebody hurts you the first time you experience toxic behavior it's like someone trampling on the snow and then as life goes on we all get stepped on that's pretty exactly if we have healthier parents and a healthier environment in a nurturing environment it happens less and later in life but we're gonna we live in a hostile world so we have a perfect circle when we're born what happens is this circle is broken when is it broken when a trust is breached when a promise is broken when someone who loves you doesn't know it doesn't behave in a loving way when you lie to when you see deceptive deception or duplicity you know you ever think of this when is the first time a child lies when's the first time you ever lied i know i'm suggesting that you've lied in your life but i'm assuming that you're like me so you probably lied once or twice children don't lie that's why their parents have to tell them don't say everything that's going on at home because then what you see is what you get so you know where we learn we learn from our parents the first time we see them being deceptive that's how children are they cease to be seamless and we become somewhat duplicitous in some way so our circle gets broken and every time there's any form of abuse or any type of trust that's been breached or any violation of a person's dignity or privacy or intimacy what happens is the circle gets broken so you know what forgiveness really is it's not about forgiving the other it's closing your own circle fixing the circle that has become broken in your life and that's what i told this woman as well i said at the end of the day your parents may never deserve forgiveness because they never ask you for forgiveness they have never shown remorse yeah they want you to forgive them because it's convenient i want you to come so the pictures look good and the neighbors won't talk that negatively about them but they've never shown since a sincere remorse in that case that is so but so why do you need to forgive you're not forgiving them but they did they did they will you're forgiving yourself you're closing your own circle you don't want the rest of your life to be defined by people who virtue one way or another and that is the tremendous lesson here after world war ii after the holocaust you know there was a big debate among the jews when the germans began to offer reparations they all created the the germans called them um till this day it gave billions of dollars uh it will come to me in a minute the fund they created essentially reparations for what they did to the jewish people whether it was the books they burned whether it was lives that were taken health and so there's a there was a big debate some jews said they're not going to take their blood money you don't want them to in any way ever think that with money they're going to buy off what they did they're going to get some forgiveness so they're going to get some redemption absolutely not others say take the money iran who cares what they think you know we can build institutions the second party won out not because they felt were forgiving them they said the hell with them who cares what they think we meanwhile can do things with the money let's do things with the money they're not they're not being forgiven by us they were able to say we are not going to be defined by them and we will build i remember uh once my elderly gizelle was very close with my father so he after my father passed away ellie rizzell i stayed friendly with him so i was once sitting and speaking with him and i sat there with all respect and i asked you a question you were in the camps is it true that when the jews marched to the gas chambers there were times that they would sing a song called i believe with complete faith in the coming of the messiah so he said well i can't tell you because we were in the barracks far away they kept us away from the gas chambers so we really could not um hear anything we knew what was happening but we weren't close by but i can tell you on a daily basis that song other songs prayers kaddish shma all the time especially when a holiday came when the nazis were particularly cruel where prayer said so i said look i'm a spoiled american kid growing up in america i never really experienced this but it sounds to me like something something odd and this was that jews had all the right to be extremely angry at god this is the darkest moment in our history being killed just because you're jewish where is god how is god being silent how is he allowing one and a half million innocent children to be go up in smoke and the jews are not only accepting that they're singing god's praises explain this insanity to me and i said it with humble respect and he said to me and i've heard this from others echoed by other holocaust survivors he said to me first of all we know that jews are insane so that's not a big issue right now but so all joking aside the jews were declaring they were not in denial they were not dismissing they were not living in fantasy la la land they were declaring forever and ever that you can take our bodies but you can't take our souls you can take our lives but you can't take our faith we will prevail if it won't be us it will be our children and if it won't be our children will be our grandchildren so it wasn't a declaration it wasn't a a a an act of weakness it was an act of strength and they would not go down die without making that statement so it wasn't about oh you know what i forgive god or whatever no i don't forgive and i don't forget but i am not being defined by this i don't know the story is true but i once heard that when one of the nazis was about to kill a jew the jew asked can i say my final prayer and the nazi said what go ahead and he began to whisper the jew and i said what are you saying he says i'm thanking my god what are you thanking your god for your miserable jew about to kill you you're my mercy where's your god she said i'm not thanking my god that he didn't create me like you you know i mean whether it happened or not i wasn't there i've heard the story a number of times but he all captures the story now number of years ago i was in germany hanukkah berlin i asked the rabbi to take me to brandenburg gate that was where hitler imagined stood thousands of hundreds of thousands you know you see the images the videos the legions of his juggernaut and him going on going hitler right there what is there now hanukkah where hitler stood 80 years ago when i asked the rabbis how'd you pull that off the christmas trees out to the right and to the left he says i convinced the curator that for the choreography of the moment it would really be cool to have the menorah with the light in the middle and the trees on the sides and all that and you have little jewish children running around going to yeshiva lighting candles shabbos the nazis children and grandchildren change their names they're hiding their identity they don't want to know anyone know who they are so i'm not in any way dismissing or in any way justifying or explaining away the holocaust six million a third of our nation is decimated they'll never forget that but we don't and we don't forgive them either but we forgive ourselves and we even forgive god in a way because we're not going to become defined by their bestiality and that's why we're here today and we will build and we continue to build now you can say all this sounds something beyond us no these people are regular people i know joseph was not a regular person but the lesson of joseph exactly what am i the rabbit told me to tell my father your life you're on a mission when you're on a mission whether you're in a dark place or in a light place they're both parts of your mission you navigate whatever it may be and you become a greater person in the process i have to say this i've seen people carry grudges even with their brothers and sisters often it's about things that are not anything in our category i know brothers that don't talk to each other simply because of money now that may sound insane but i'm sure you know some people like that i know none of you are in that situation so you're telling me i met a multi-billionaire whose two children don't speak to him he's always been controlling them with money he didn't he wasn't particularly abusive but he thought he could buy everything and he essentially destroyed their lives in the process he knows me and he knows i know his shoulder he's i set him so he says what can you do to bring us together i said would you be willing to give away your billions to uh give it to me and i'll take it i didn't not quite like that that was not my intention i said then we're ready to give away the billion tell god i'll give away the billions but i'll have my children attack my life you know what he said to me gave me some thought he said i'm not sure if i would i said so you can you're asking me how am i going to correct that so in other words you're telling me one day you're going to die nobody has figured out how to take your money with them to the next world at least as i know nobody with all the innovation nobody has figured that out so you're not going to take your money with you who's it going to go to not to your children because you're writing you're cutting them out of your world because you're angry so it's going to go to the government basically very nice so that's your choice that's a really i see a real vision or you really think ahead and the problem is you get so seduced by the momentary and the instant gratification of material life and you forget eternal values we're all guilty of it i'm guilty of it as a matter of fact one of my favorite things like the pandemic in a way has taken away many of our comfort zones security blankets when you come to think about it a lot of people tell me you know what i once couldn't live without a baseball game now the whole thing i don't give a damn what do i care you know or not to go to twice a week to a new restaurant my whole life was around that a museum and this suddenly we realize that all these things that we become spoiled and i'm not saying we should have you know we all would have loved to have we went back to the old normal as they keep saying but as everyone thought it would be over by june so okay the nightmare lasted for three months and now we're back to normal let's go back to our cafes now it's it's dragging on a little longer maybe once a century god decides he wants to remind people they're not in control of your life really but you're in control of how you will your attitude and it's interesting i don't know how all of you think about it but i see it as like a real test of who you are you want to know what a character or person is like you don't see when they're comfortable you see when they're not comfortable you know they say i don't know who they say about but it's like a tea bag you want to know how strong you are you don't know how strong a tea bag is until you put it into hot water there's little innocent tea bag with leaves you put it in hot water and suddenly the aroma and the powder and all of that so warren buffett once said not now a few years ago he said when the tide is out you see who's been swimming naked you know so it's very easy to look great when everything the party is on but suddenly things are stripped away from you and you have to improvise and you have to innovate who are what are you made of now i wish it didn't come with pain and loss my own community we lost many people death i mean so i'm not suggesting this is some blessing without pain there's plenty of pain and we wish it would happen other ways but to say that there are things to be learned from this to say that we cannot become greater people so i would say at the end of the day that if a person cannot let go of something that hurt them even if it's the deepest possible hurt there's something that's still you need to fix within yourself it's not just the person that hurts you of course you'd love to turn the clock back and say i wish my parent didn't touch me or i wasn't abused i wasn't hurt this in this way but that's after the but now it's after the fact what are you going to do right now let me tell you the end of the story with this one your move she finally did get it on her terms i wasn't pushing her i didn't tell her to do it i didn't even tell her to forgive her parents i was just helping her to become a stronger person and the point came which she did with a lot of people do sometimes she wrote a very strong powerful letter to her parents but she never sent it but she freed herself from it because she revented and said everything she wanted to say and she's on she's i would say she's in a very healthy place right now she'll never forget what happened that void is there of course she wants to have a healthy mother and healthy father who doesn't want to have the nurturing and the love that we all deserve but i feel that she's she freed herself a bit and i think within a year or two she'll probably find the right guy because now she has the openness and it took time but it ultimately came down to finding within herself a deeper um a deeper uh toward one deeper resilience of the spirit that's stronger than the pain that happened to her because that's ultimately what real healing is you find a place that's deeper than where the pain took place it's like going back to the point where she was born before the earth came and when you can access that that's where the healing comes as long as you continue to live on the same plane the same level where the pain came from that is just a part of your life and you can't get around it but you find that type of sense of purpose in the case of my father in the hospital discovering some mission that he didn't know he had or a case of joseph the strengths he found when you find that then you suddenly realize one second i have so much about me that's beautiful i'm going to allow the toxins of my life to contaminate and pollute my existence and my being it starts becoming a matter even of pride and that's what the jews in the holocaust did not allow they were not going to go down just die as victims they went down as heroes and they went down leaving values and if they couldn't do it their children would do it and it wouldn't be their children it would be their grandchildren it's the only way that our grandparents every one of you has grandparents great grandparents has a story either went through the holocaust or through russian persecutions or before that pogroms having the whole american jewish population most of it the first immigration beginning of the 20th century came because of the pogroms in eastern europe or you go back further the inquisition the crusaders i mean here a history of of of uh they talk about systemic racism we've got 3 300 years of it under every every government and every obama so the end of the day we've been through it all but like the tea bag and like the verse in exodus which says as they were oppressed by the beginning of exodus as the jews were oppressed they thrived and they flourished because they were exactly that you squeeze an olive you get the best oil nobody likes to be squeezed we're not inviting it we're not asking for it but once it happens we will become greater nevertheless and every jewish challenge every suffering that we have what have we turned it into pharaoh bathed in the blood of jewish children we have not passed our crusaders with all kinds of recipes and foods we celebrate haman like hitler wanted to kill all the jews and ended up becoming and and whatever it is and you go to step every one every tragedy we turned into a celebration so that's uh that's a statement that's a statement that we are not defined by our enemies nothing will define it we will define ourselves and i want to conclude something i always heard from my father as a journalist you would always say there are three types of people people who make things happen people who watch things happen and people ask what happened if you believe in fake news they have the fourth category now they tell you what happened that never happened it's another start but it's not relevant to this so i would like to say to you to you and to myself we have the ability the choice to make things happen to be proactive you want to know the single most important ingredient in all success never be reactive you need to be an influencer before someone influences you and it doesn't there's no in between there's no like you know like the guy that's taking the poll and says so you democratic republican he thinks he says i think i'm from the underside you know like the guy that says uh i used to be indecisive and now i'm not so short that's also a position so you really have either you're going to influence which means each of you have your skills you have your talents you have your sphere of influence and you're going to take the bull by the horns and use a situation like this and do something proactive make things happen or you're going to choose to watch things happen or be told that things are happening i think it's a pretty obvious choice and that's why jews have always been troublemakers for good or for bad they wanted to make things happen sometimes they knew what they're doing sometimes they didn't that's another story but the point is i believe that story of forgiveness is not just about forgiveness it's about taking control of your life and the things that happen to you that instead of you being shaped by them and defined by them you define what you do with that i mean you're able to do that you become a very different type of person because no matter what comes your way you'll figure out how to navigate so much more can be said on this topic and i wanted to just say it as well now in the honor of daniella right that clearly your family has suffered and um but the way jews have always dealt with suffering is i remember when i said shiver from my father i remember only you know there's a big whiz in here most of what people told me people say all kinds of stuff sometimes intelligence sometimes that's intelligent you know like many people have died i remember someone telling us you know you get through it it's a transaction um but one thing i do remember one person telling me when someone you lose someone close that you love it's like a hole in your heart and holding your soul like a hole in your living room and you keep falling into it and one day the hole doesn't go away you never forget the hole you can always access it and often you remember it even when you don't want to but you learn to walk around it and i found that to be something really empowering until this day you know you learn to walk around it which means we don't forget our losses we don't forget the pain but we don't let it become the force that we fall into and it's not what the soul wants as well as i said at the outset that the other soul is right here with us as well as the shamans the souls of others loved ones and we truly believe that we truly believe that the souls that were here before us and for whatever reason god took them and they're not in physical bodies right now their journey continues it absolutely continues it's just in a different plane a different dimension do you think the jews could have gotten through what we went through they didn't believe that how could anyone have survived if they didn't know that something's going to live on and i can't speak for people who carry crotches to the grave or like this guy won't even spend money to make up with his children ridiculously giving away permanent life and temporary pleasure i can't relate to it but i know that people get consumed you get your vision gets completely blurred you only see what you see you're unable to rise and become a greater person i'd like to believe and i hope that these words i said would come from my heart they say words come from the heart and to the heart so only if it entered your heart then you know that it really came from my heart if it didn't then blame me okay so i thank you for your indulging me and your attention again for making this happen i hope these words can help us all everyone has their stuff they got to work with we've all been shaped by things of the past and uh we have the opportunity to become greater than you can ever imagine i'll conclude something i read in henry kissinger's uh diary or memoirs when nixon resigned through the watergate it was in 1973. um long before you were all born uh so so he called kissinger into his office the oval office and they said come do you ever pray kisses are of course jewish he didn't pray so alexis said let's get on our knees let's pray together they do a prayer then they get up and nixon is walking out to sign the resignation papers the first time ever in history it wasn't exactly a beautiful evening and on the in the outer hall there was that famous portrait of jfk he's sitting in this like pensive mode with his hands in his uh his head i'm sorry in his uh in his palm and nixon this is what christians are right nixon mother whispers whispers they love you because you remind them of what they want to be and they hate me because i remind them of who they are i always like to feel that um and i say this a tribute to the rabbit who think i'm here for the first time in this new what we call it cyp house cyp house okay that that the rebel as a true leader and i sat on his feet that mentioned before that i worked for him remembering his words but if i could capture one of the things that he uh really i believe touched people was that wasn't about him you felt that you can achieve anything you set your mind to it not who you are but what you're able to be and that's what true uh leaders and mentors they let you see a better part of yourself that you sometimes yourself don't even see we have to always remember that that you have a lot better within you than you could ever imagine and when you can access that you can forgive every anything even without even if you can't forget so i bless you all that we should be able to do that as michelangelo said as mechanizable said i know i said conclude the speaker says conclude it means another 20 minutes michelangelo said when they asked him how do you sculpt those beautiful angels in the marble and he said the following he said i see the angel trapped in the marble and i carved and carved and set her free so we don't create beauty you have the beauty within you you have the angel the music the soul the flower but sometimes it gets trapped in concrete or in marble or concrete or in other substances and we have to carve away and then that angel is set free you can spread your wings to soar and achieve anything you set your mind to so maybe use this time especially coming from the holidays especially in this pandemic time see it as that pressure that's going to bring the best out of you and really rise to location and be something far better than you ever could have imagined i thank you all listening to me we're all musical notes from a large composition and may remember the day when our grandparents and great-grandparents and ourselves see the full fruition of the vision of what they gave their life for that is a world peace world of harmony within diversity of all nations no war no famine no ignorance no hatred a war a world of diversity but beautiful love that connects us all so thank you very much thank you very much robert jacobson uh for joining us today for your words and thank you to laura t.a and the name of the foundation for making this happen as we have heard jacobson has had um the unique privilege and experience of working with and working for the long-term has a lot of insights on many topics um of human nature which can be seen in his book or maybe politely or i highly recommend anybody reading you don't have it you have to get it yes but anybody has any questions about tonight's conversation about anything else i'm happy to take questions questions you can ask anything you like nothing is taboo and i do press conferences yes i will tell you just in case you do have questions we don't cover you can easily access me meaningfullive.com is our website we especially lately the last few months been producing literally non-stop programming this is a full robust schedule of events and different online stuff and uh text that video or your name podcast on all the platforms okay sergeant sometimes joseph had the chance to speak to his audience you know to actually express himself and you know complete that circle what happened like do you need to complete that circle do you need to speak to those people do you how do you complete that circle with them okay that's a good question look the the first of all you can complete the circle even without anyone else if for example uh a lot of people have difficulty a parent who's hurt then has died and they feel they never really got their revenge or never had reconciliation ever had resolution so it's impossible to say your circle is dependent on someone else it's true someone can hurt you but you can fill your circle many different ways so you have to take different i'll just give different scenarios there are people who are alive that have hurt us and they just refuse to college i said yeah out of convenience maybe they just want you to forgive them to get rid of something called the bad blood they say you know bygones is he basically stuck a knife into my heart twisted it and it continues to cause me to bleed so it's not exactly my mind you get even angrier because they try to minimize it and dismiss it so then i would say you don't really have a partner you don't have someone even willing to work so then you could pray for their soul but i wouldn't suggest going into the line of fire i've told people who are parents who insist that they come see them i say may not be healthy for you because you're going to just get more taxes coming your way now if it's a scenario where a parent i'll give you an example i have no scenarios where parents actually do come to an epiphany or an awareness and it's authentic not talking about playing games so then you have someone to talk to that obviously uh has another dimension so i think it's case by case you have to look at who you're dealing with what kind of hurts happened and what you do with it now you have to be to be ready to accept some people just very want the parent or the let's put this with what you call the perpetrator to some way acknowledge something and they're like almost obsessed with it you may not get it to be very honest but you have to remember god does not put you in a situation life your destiny is dependent on another person if they remain cruel or insensitive then it's their problem the circle has to be completed by you it could be completed through the people you do love and other people who have been hurt and don't want to get married because they don't want to bring children that they may hurt and i always tell them that's the opposite that's how you redeem it have children and don't do to them what was done to you and many who actually do it and take the leap discover redemption that way so there's many ways to go about it it's hard to really speak about in general terms because every case is different but there's no question i would i would definitely advise talking to someone you trust a mentor or a friend colleague because they can help sometimes they have a certain distance they're not emotionally entangled so they can give a little more perspective having something like that can be very helpful because they can because you also want to know should i push not push like let's say you're in doubt maybe the perpetrator would acknowledge if approached the right way and then you live with that guilt should i challenge them or not so it's good to run and buy someone because you don't want to obsess the rest of your life with the situation bang your head against and there are there are unfortunately different situations some people just cannot whatever reason they can they can't find a way to become greater themselves and they remain who they remain you know now i i have to acknowledge i don't have personally ever suffered in such a way but i've seen a lot of it and i think i can relate to it but i do want to make the disclaimer that i don't have the credibility of someone i can say you know i suffered as much as you did and i got through it i want to say that but i do know people that have and i know them by name and i know people who become i'm in awe of how refined they are how they allowed how they harness and they channel all their anger into constructive ways and they build beautiful lives and they help others in that regard you know so if any of you are dealing with any of these issues if you want to call me privately anonymously i'm happy to speak i'm happy to maybe advise them and i know people have gone through stuff that can be really helpful there's no one like someone who's gone through the fire because they just have a certain a certain credibility and experience that you can't put in a book and and unfortunately we live in a world with a lot of hurt a lot of parents of her children sometimes knowingly sometimes not knowingly and not just parents and children you know we hurt each other and people even we love i don't like the quote oscar wilde but he has a lot of good quotes um but he said we love this we kill the things we love most so that's a pretty cynical statement i don't want to say that but i don't believe that's true but it's true we could kill things we love because we don't either we don't understand or we try to do it on our terms or we think we have it figured out but we want to control the situation to be to really do do justice you have to be sensitive to the nuances of every situation is different there's no blanket thing what i spoke about was i think principles that we can learn from joseph and so on but then applying it needs you need to know the circumstances and um and again i i've seen unbelievable i've seen i mean the greatest people i personally know are the people who've gone through such challenges because they became extremely refined very very clear honest honesty the honesty of people who've suffered and come through it is is humbling but most of us are not that honest when you have to face something and really acknowledge it and people have to realize that honesty there's also of course i should mention the fear many of us feel we're fearful like damaged goods and if people knew how what we went through who knows what they think of us we have to also get beyond the shame and the pro and pride issues so i'm not suggesting going out there just talking about it everywhere um but i do think that it's important to be able to get beyond the stigma i'm saying you feel oh you know what someone knew what happened to me no one want to have a relationship with me etc etc so i'm just covering some more of the ground on this topic thank you sure two more questions and then please um one question i'm curious about like what if you're in a situation that um you accidentally hurt someone and that person forgave you but that person is still suffering and you feel remorse for that like for example let's just say that you accidentally hit somebody in a car accident and that person is now paralyzed and that person you know forgives you right but you still see this person suffering with their life has changed yeah how do you get closure in a situation it's a very difficult one but i will share there are you know there are some very powerful stories that have happened even recently i think i just read one about a cop a crooked cop a corrupt cop put away someone in prison for completely false accusations false and and now they're best friends and they've created an organization dealing with with corruption and stuff like that i would think that obviously it has to be cooperation but i think one way would be you know you're committed not to that person i'm gonna say you whoever calls that paralysis or that accident in a way has a responsibility even if they're forgiven to redeem it so it could be you have to join with that person and doing something creating a foundation that will help others in that situation and really talk to them and say look i know you've forgiven me but i am i live with this and i cannot just forget it so i would look for ways to cooperate with a person like that maybe do something bigger for the human race or something that that person would like to do maybe you can encourage them i mean again let's say you i mean whoever it is that uh going through that that's ultimately one of the best ways of healing because there's nothing you could make the accident happen paralysis there you can't reverse the can't turn the clock back it's the only way is to take him and to turn to something greater that's where you see many who both criminals and and perpetrators and ultimately they find some redemption in that way they do something that will help others i mean like you have stories of people who killed children or adults from driving and one of the ways is they become great advocates against strong drug drugs drinking and driving does it solve the problem does it heal the child well it doesn't bring the person back to life but at least you can say what i've that what i've gone through has turned has turned into some positive force for the good so it's not justification it's not even forgetting but it's definitely harnessing because the other option is just to live with the guilt the rest of your life and do nothing that's just demoralizing that doesn't do anything it doesn't do a good thing that's how i would approach it most likely again case by case but that would be one of the ways yeah i'm gonna ask a question about half a totally different topic aged couples here and newly american couples and obviously everyone can benefit from any twelve of our relationships what would you say is the biggest challenge that confronts married couples and how do you consult advocates um it's a whole evening of a song but yeah i'll i'll segue from what we spoke about i think certain principles um look everybody offers secrets to to healthy relationships and you know they're not working because they keep being on the syllabus because if it didn't work well you need another book right so clearly it's like this pursuit for uh for perfection i think some of the the jewish secrets because again i go back to 3 800 years of history my grandparents must have done something right and the divorce rate was then as it is today we probably would none of us would be here so they did something right i would just if i could put it into a formula i think there's some of you may be familiar with this concept of hasidic thought that's called bitto you've ever heard the word bittel b-i-t-t-u-l it's a combination of modesty humility above all suspending yourself in face of something greater than yourself like what i described with joseph i think any marriage that has that you can overcome anything the problem becomes when people get dug in dig into their own egos and they're completely convinced they're right and then if you have two people doing that you understand where this that's gonna head the ability to be flexible and um and sometimes forego or overlook certain things and not to say like say you know what then keep a scorecard i've overlooked three things now you have to overlook three things it doesn't usually work well when you do that um so i think if two people have that attitude you generally can get through anything in my opinion and i'm talking from hard-earned experience talking dealing with many many thousands of couples if you can't have that i have to say there's going to be clashes that may be very difficult to overcome so i think introducing that element like we talk about the third partner in every relationship is god and that when two people have what i like to call beyond physical and emotional and intellectual compatibility they also have spiritual compatibility that there's some vision greater than the sum of the parts like the hovers above the bride and the groom that higher cause if you wish or higher mission is i think a force that really transcends differences and can over i'll tell you an example i uh married off many couples but remember one now we suggest that sometimes very secular couples that have no connection to judaism at all but then i always have to messy they want me to marry the most i said you probably want to hear a little about the jewish approach to marriage we talk about three pillars in jewish home life which is kosher shabbat and uh and i never tell people you have to do anything but if you want to know what are the ingredients of a healthy marriage these are three key things and then i made a suggestion which i always do which is optional but i i believe in it strongly i said when you start a new beginning you're getting married do something make a commitment together once a week at least let's say thursday evenings whenever whatever works but scheduled study something together it could be anything you like read a book together study a passion a story i mean there's plenty of literature out there and let me tell you a story about that happened absolutely when i'm asked a while and then i say maybe once a month also have a group in your home post something bring friends talk about meaningful things not just the superficial stuff and i always say the reason is because these type of activities create bring spirituality into your home and that spirituality adds and nurtures a relationship it's not just the two people based on their own resources and their own tools so here's what happened it's a couple who were a beautiful couple beautiful people decided to get married and they made this commitment they began thursday evenings they would study something together okay a few years passed their life their lives were going well but then you know as it is every marriage has its challenges it started getting difficult and they told me it said that saved our marriage was the thursday night coming together there was a point we weren't even talking to each other we were so angry at each other we were asleep angry we didn't look at each other we ignored each other couldn't agree on anything but since we made that commitment we decided no matter what we're doing that even when we would have hated each other but we're studying something they said that was like the gloom and we were able to rebuild upon that so having things like that in your life that are more than just your own interests something you committed to something great like even the friday night shabbat and i tell people specifically when you're not in the mood that's when you should do it because that's what will give you strength it's like any exercise you don't want to exercise only when you're in the mood you want to go certainly you're not in the mood that's what makes an exercise so we do something like that those are the things that keep you together even when there's challenging situations now no magic i don't think there's magic it's always good to have a third party when you're dealing with other with issues but it always will come when people rise above their self themselves if it gets down to who's right and who's wrong you're pretty much on the collision course you know that i'm right you're right they're not right then it's going to become a debate and a negotiation and a compromise and resentments and and i don't usually see things happening well when you you know this isn't about a business negotiation and meeting halfway it's about just a certain gentleness and tenderness and just not being so trapped and locked into everything you think don't take yourself so seriously maybe that's a good way to put them i think that's what marriage really teaches you especially when the children start coming around so it wakes you up not to take yourself then you sleep too seriously your confidence first time you die for your child thank you

Channel: Rabbi Simon Jacobson at Meaningful Life Center

Views: 1,875

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: spirituality, soul, meaning, purpose, god, kabbalah, torah, chassidus, mysticism, psychology

Id: L5olyT54VnM

Length: 77min 19sec (4639 seconds)

Published: Tue Nov 03 2020