How to Fix Democracy | Adrian Wooldridge

[Music] so we're on John Adams Street central London just up from Charing Cross outside the Adelphi building where The Economist's perhaps the world's leading and most venerable liberal magazine about politics and economics reside but the Economist is concerned they're celebrating 100 and 75th anniversary and on that 170 fifth anniversary a manifesto for renewing liberalism The Economist which is perhaps the global mouthpiece for liberalism for democratic liberalism say liberalism made the modern world but the modern world is turning against it so The Economist is concerned then we should all be concerned about the future of democracy and we've come to the Economist to talk to Adrian Wooldridge their political editor and the Badger columnist about the future of democracy the crisis of liberalism and how to fix yeah here we have the economists from volume 1 - now around here this was all when Walter banner was edited Walter Badger was editor for 17 years and he was not only the edge - proves the The Economist's only full-time employee he had one assistants so he basically did everything he was writing like crazy but he also managed at the same time to write for large numbers of other magazines at the same time so he wrote there that is the greatest book the English Constitution who's writing the whole of the Economist and had so much energy and time left that he wrote for other magazines at the same time which make might explain the fact that he died when he was 53 is excreting right [Music] Adrian Wooldridge the political editor of The Economist and Badgers columnist Adrian is democracy dying dying is too strong a word but democracy is in real trouble I think from 1945 onwards until about 2000 we believe that democracy was the wave of the future democracy just kept going and going getting deeper and stronger and spreading around the world and since about 2000 it started to retreat and that retreat has gotten worse in the last few years and the two most disturbing things about that retreat I think are the two sort of great beacons of democracy are in trouble judge from purely democratic point of view one of course is the United States which is going through extraordinary turmoil at the moment and has Trump as a president who is a sort of was elected democratically just but seems to have a very soft spot for authoritarian regimes and the second is the European Union which is very dubious when it comes to democracy it's run by an unaccountable rather arrogant elites which seems to sort of have the whip hand over democratically elected government such as the one in Britain so she's the one in Greece and it's very contemptuous a lot of the of the Eastern European governments so there's a tension between the European Union and democracy and there is a sort of disfigurements of democracy in the United States you mentioned America yeah Trump and suggested that America was having problems with his democracy but what's undemocratic about Trump he was elected it doesn't seem as if he's pursuing some sort of coup of any kind he seems to respect at least implicitly the legal system of the country in fact he uses it all the time to suit people why is there a crisis of democracy in America there's a crisis of democracy in America for two very obvious reasons one is that when Trump is campaigning with his people his campaigning is a populist not somebody who respects institutions so it's us against them it's the wisdom of the people we migrate because democracy in its best form depends on a willingness to limit the the power of the people through constitutional restraints and to respect the opposition if you heard the phrase the loyal opposition coming out of trumps mouth you'd be very surprised but there's something else going on which is that Trump is is is sort of making money out of being president most obviously most obviously with the hotel which most obviously I'm being careful in my words and most obviously with the Trump Hotel just down the road from the White House and that has a sort of emerging world third-world feel to it America used to be the case you could retire from being president and you wouldn't go into the business somehow making America third world therefore undemocratic I don't think it's person izing I think it's accurate I think one of the things that Trump is I think people think of Trump is a fascist if they're on the left that's a completely bogus bogus comparison what he is in too many ways I think is is is a Latin American style strongman azshara vet yeah Chavez sort of figure or and and that works me but did the poor Amer on rather Amish exactly so democracy isn't working well in America that's correct it's malfunctioning it's malfunctioning it's malfunctioning a completely different way in a sense the problem with American democracy is almost it's too democratic that's you have lots and lots of power giving other people the problem with your opinion did ma cracy of course and that and you know there is a profound crisis in European democracy is in many ways it's not Democratic enough you have an unelected group of Europe rats who are obsessed with certain certain principles freedom of movements of the written and the rest who have jobs that aren't contingent upon performance support upon being a rip-rip reelected who are increasingly in conflict with national governments as I say Italy Greece Britain Hungary many Poland and that is a very dangerous system you certainly wouldn't look at Europe now if you were an African and say that is a wonderful democratic system which we want to which we want to him take the same of the United States it used to be the case that if you're in the emerging world you would look at America look at Europe and say we want to be like them increasingly they look at those political systems and saying yeah we want to be like China so the greatest book of liberalism in the 19th century is a description and celebration of the rise of a democratic liberal power the coming power that is defining the world for the 19th century and beyond is the United States and top was a bit nervous about democracy but in the end he says this is the wave of the future and this is a good thing now if you were to write a book about the great rising power of the 21st century it would probably be about China and China is absolutely the antithesis of democracy because it isn't it's an anti individualist state it regards the individual as as an atom and ants as part of the system it's a surveillance society and it's a society that doesn't believe in the strengths on the power of the state it believes that people exist to serve the state not the states we observe the people so we've gone from the 19th century where liberalism was the coming thing so the 21st century where as exactly as you described it surveillance capitalism is is the coming thing we always used to think that capitalism and democracy is somehow somehow were inseparable in that the advance of capitalism would also be the advance of democracy now we're seeing exactly the opposite that this every guy it's totally wrong there's nothing anything that the end of history it was anything but the end of history now I think that that that capitalism didn't democracy can quite often be aligned they were for much of the the second half of the 20th century but now they be again become separate you think of this those people at Davos listening to the presence of China talking about how he believes in free trade and free markets they're all saying wonderful marvelous lets they like him they don't like Trump Trump is the you know whatever is false is the Democrat he is the author at em but the businesspeople want smooth markets even if it means no rights for individuals in that context now that's extremely worrying so explain what the difference is if there is one between liberalism in a British sense or a global sense as opposed to the American sense and democracy are they the same thing no liberalism precedes democracy in many ways a lot of the early liberals are skeptical about democracy but ultimately liberalism and democracy are completely compatible because what liberalism is about is about the idea that that the world should be ordered on the basis of the rights abilities and responsibilities of individuals that you should make your own life that life isn't determined by where you're born which is the sort of old aristocratic view of things so although the early liberals are skeptical about democracy they make their peace with democracy very rapidly because they realize that democracy is part of the liberal project their point of so democracy is part of liberalism but it isn't exactly the same as liberalism and one of the things that liberals always say is that democracy is a great thing providing that you don't confuse me with populism with the idea that the people are all wise that everything must be decided by plebiscite that democracy is so important so powerful that it has to be in some way where's limited by constitutional rules you have to have representative democracy you have to have Bills of Rights which which enshrine the rights of individuals in law you have to have checks and balances you have to have institutions like courts which limit the power of the demos to make decisions so it's constitutional democracy that it's all about and I think one of the things that's happened in the last few years we had a glorious period I think when this preoccupation with constitutionalism and this Kaka patient with the populace with the will of the people with the same thing that democracy was seen as liberal democracy and what we've seen since 2000 is a separation between the two things that you have on the one hand populism which says that democracy is the one of the people that's trumpism in many ways and none way or breaks it on the other hand you have constitutionalism which says that liberalism is all about constitutional rules about as a stable set of rules is it and that's that sort of elite view of liberalism which is all about is is all about these rules and restraints has become separated so you have the European Union which is all about fundamental rights which is all about the rule of experts which is all about which is all about formal side of constitutional restraints second-ranking almost 19th century liberalism that's what it is I think separating out from democracy when you have these two things at war with each other as you do now you have a very dangerous situation coming back to America I know you've written quite a lot about the politics of identity engulfing the left in America to what extent is that also undermining democracy massively massively because the the notion you might explain what the politics of identity years yeah the politics of identity is essentially that's different groups of people have different and probably irreconcilable interests that are built into their biology to their gender to their ethnicity but if you're saying that people have irreconcilable interests based upon their group identity that's a very dangerous thing for democracy because it creates the politics of group antagonism we've seen that in India for the last hundred years with devastating consequences also people are going further than that they're saying that the the validity of an argument is not determined by its logical consistency or its empirical validation but on who's saying it so people say speaking as a black woman speaking as a white man does that mean people can't talk to one another any means it's a democracy not just essential to democracy it is essential to democracy but it's essential to the liberal order Badgett in whose name I write said that liberalism is essentially the politics of discussion it means that you can discuss things people with different views different outlooks different interests discuss things and they come to reasonable solutions on the basis of discussion this is the politics of refusal to discuss it's saying that speaking as a black man or speaking as a black woman I cannot come to a reason agreement with you because you've had different historical experiences from me and we will never agree on anything some people be watching this and say a typical position of a dominant white male a senior person at the economy how would you respond to that I would respond to that by saying that that that's an extremely dangerous argument partly because it argues that there can't be any empathy between people the people who've had a certain historical experience cards empathize with people who've had different sort experiences and I think that that makes a mockery of the whole of human literature of the whole of the humanities the humanities are about the possibility of having empathy with people in fact different experiences from your era so it's nonsense because it says that says that my interests are ultimately because of my position in society because of my race because of my gender ultimately irreconcilable with their interests in other words we have a world of groups which are in fundamental conflict with each other I didn't that's true I think that the interests of lots and lots of different groups are reconcilable and I think that their reconcilable through economic growth through parliamentary institutions through liberal institutions and through reasoned debate and discussion so do you think to strengthen democracy or at least to solve this current crisis the left the progressive less generally has to get beyond the politics of identity or at least temper it I think they have to get beyond the policy of identity I think that's a that's a dead end but they have to but also the rights have to understand the legitimacy of many of these complaints if you're a young person now in Britain it's very very difficult to get a house it's very very difficult to buy in but there's a legitimate worries there's a legitimate frustrations if you would be descendant of a slave owner sorry if you're a descendant of an old person the person who's been a slave you are probably poorer you are probably subject to a range of experiences which are a consequence of chattel slavery so I think the right has to understand the legitimacy of some of these I would say slavery is absolutely fundamental that Madison at least in the u.s. but we know what wouldn't it also be plan to say that the most vital and vibrant democratic movement certainly in the West and particularly in the US have been identity politics movement black lives matter me too you think that those aren't legitimate that they're not a manifestation of democracy I'm saying that if they depend on the idea that nobody can understand their arguments who has have that expensive there is a distinction between drawing attention to problems that have been ignored or or alighted or not given enough attention to with a politics of zero-sum games quite often politics radical politics starts off with very legitimate complaints and then provides extreme or dangerous solutions to those can say so me too absolutely there's lots of legitimate things going on black lives matter absolutely lots of legitimate things going on but if you go on from that to say that a white person is should be presumed to be guilty of all sorts of nefarious things that is an illegitimate thing to do in the discourse about the crisis of democracy people often talk about Trump and then in the next breath they mentioned brexit and they shake their head but what was so anti-democratic or undemocratic about the brexit vote and why does brexit or should brexit indicate the vote that the decision that supposedly democratic decision for the British electorate to leave the European Union why is that a manifestation of the crisis of democracy there are two forms of crisis of democracy which are in tension with each other and the tension between these two things is exceptionally interesting one is elites not paying attention to the will of the people but the other is the the idea that the will of the people unfiltered by institutions and constitutions and Parliament's wise and wise you know wise men like men wise women as well of course it's a problem is a problem and I think that the referendum is a classic example of that because the referendum is an example of a democratic mistake it's the idea that you can give people a choice yes or no to a very complicated to a very complicated set of issues but you're allowed once to make this decision and the will of the people is final I'm against referendum this is factually call them in of demagogues and I think there are instruments of demagogues I think they unleashed monsters I think they're the wrong way of making decisions I'm in favor of representative democracy and that means the people every four five or however many years it is voting for representatives who all so you so for you that the crisis of democracy in the brexit case wasn't so much the brexit vote but just the very nature of clever satori democracy absolutely I was I was against them I even even more against it now it's done and were you for or against browsers against brexit I regard myself as being a strongly anti British brexit euro skeptic I mean I think Europe has got a lot of problems I'm very hostile to Europe in all sorts of ways but I didn't like the referendum and I didn't like getting out of Europe I wanted to remain within Europe as a euro skeptic because I think we're losing more than we're gaining what we're going to do I think through checkers is to have a bizarre position whereby we have to obey all of their rules when they say over their rules the worst of all possible worlds why does economic upheaval undermine democracy what is it about being perhaps an economic loser and economic casualty that makes one sceptical about the democratic system and democratic political parties well there are two things that we're really talking about one is upheaval and the other is stagnation I think if you have a world with lots of an upheaval but in the context of significant economic growth that's tolerable because people are being asked to change their jobs they're being asked to move their houses but they move into better jobs than moving to better houses they're in aggregate gaining what we have now is a combination of stagnation and upheaval so you you have to change your job you have to change your house you have to move around but you're not in aggregate getting better off and that's a lethal combination so the piece of upheaval is fast and it's been for a long time but the remote but the economic growth is is slower and the rewards of that growth are going to a very narrow of people say this it's a lethal combination stagnation rising inequality and upheaval okay Adrian you've depress me enough how to fix liberal democracy your magazine came up with a manifesto what do we have to do here to fix it the fundamental issue is stagnant economy in the West the stagnant economy is what's poisoning everything because it turns the idea that that we can all share in collective prosperity to the idea that we're all at war with each other we also need to deal with the inequality problem a world in which you have a very small gilded elite that's seem to be not playing by the rules getting ahead of everybody else does just creates resentment that needs to be the elite absolutely there with that higher taxes just I'm not against my taxes I'm certainly in favor of inheritance taxes which prevents big fortunes from being folk from from being passed on from generation to generation I'm a I'm against things like like like the idea of legacies at Harvard University and things like that anything that smells of aristocracy of the transmission and vast privileges from one generation to another needs to be attacked and I also think that finally we need to unify the two liberalism's as it were that liberalism that sees power coming from the people and the liberalism that sees constant constitutional arrangements as being absolutely fundamental they've been separated they need to be you know that happen I think elites need to be less arrogant particularly the European elites need to be less arrogant they need to be less theological I would say that we would have none of these problems that have been created by the breakfast and the rest of it if the euro elites hadn't insisted on this theological notion that's the Four Freedoms entail freedom of movements and we can never adjust or question that that's that's elite theology that's weird just about them the elites changing their behavior don't the people need to reinvent themselves - well I think I would say that the people quite often get a raw deal and they have got a raw deal as a result of the sort of economic policies which we collectively as the elites of dude that the elite bailed itself out in the banking crisis in the way that it wouldn't pay like coal miners now there may be systemic risks in banking but nevertheless at least a few people who'd run gone to prison in this country wealth and decision-making has been overwhelmingly concentrated on London and the last of a country have been been left behind so I think the notion that we have a self-serving elite that is looked after its own interests is true and I think one of the great problems for liberalism is that liberalism in the 19th century was essentially a philosophy of people who are outside the ruling class demanding reform within the within the ruling class it was an outsider's philosophy saying we need to open up opportunity to everybody now liberalism has become the philosophy of the ruling class it's been captured by a ruling class on a set of interest groups and we need to pay much more attention to new issues such as redistribution such as regional inequality and the frustrations of the elite now I think that the brexit vote was a mistake but I think it was a mistake that was made for very very good reasons that large numbers of people thought it can't be worse than this [Music] you

Channel: Bertelsmann Foundation

Views: 5,107

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Keywords: adrian wooldridge, the economist, liberalism, democracy, brexit, european union, trump, populism, liberal elite, history of liberalism, reinventing liberalism, democracy dying, andrew keen, how to fix democracy, bertelsmann foundation

Id: IVyciIymutM

Length: 24min 13sec (1453 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 01 2019