How to Escape the Dietary Pleasure Trap | Interview with Dr. Doug Lisle

don't usually do this at night but I have a very special broadcast as I was promising you with two of my very favorite people plant-based doctors friends for over 50 years co-author of my favorite book in the whole world the pleasure trap they don't usually appear together they do it my conferences but all the conferences are canceled so I'm bringing them together for you right now live please welcome dr. Doug Lyall and dr. Ellen Goldhammer how you guys doing good Alan Alan one answer great it's so great to see you guys thank you so much for doing this so what I thought I'd do is you know people love to ask questions but they asked you guys pretty much the same questions over and over so what I thought I would do is I got a couple of scenarios that people have sent in to me and we'll just ask your opinion on how you guys might handle different situations because as you know from chapter I believe is chapter four in the pleasure trap getting along without going along sometimes social pressure is it's difficult for people so how would you guys answer this this scenario so you two have just had a wonderful dinner at a vegan restaurant you're full you're satiated and the waitress comes and brings you your check and at the same time brings you a complimentary way the first thing I do is I give the check to Alan would you pay it dr. Cole's hammer so she drops the check off and then with it she gives you a complimentary piece of carrot cake with two forks what do you do no no I eat the whole thing and I don't let him have any like are the two of us there yeah you two just had a full stationing dinner together I I'll tell you what I think happens I think Alan takes one bite of it and leaves the rest for me just just to sort of be sociable and to pretend like he's not like a saint you know what I mean so he'll just be like oh I'm not going to read your in the fact that I'm perfect so I'll give you a little break and I'll just take wet that's what I think happens actually what I would do is I would say I think this must be for you that works all right next question oh I'll go to you first dr. Goldhamer and then you can answer for dr. Lisle dr. Lisle can answer for you so a publisher has come to both of you and have asked you to write an autobiography your life story dr. Goldhamer what would dr. Lyle's life story be called in dr. Lisle what would dr. bull hammers life story be called well for doctor a while we would we would title the book in the beginning [Laughter] that's pretty good all right too many things come to mind [Music] I think Alan would be quit whining and just do it something like that so you know you guys wrote this book but there's another book that's really very similar called the pleasure trip you guys for not that one no yeah that's the story that most people's lives have happened and I know that you guys have been friends for over 50 years and I think you agree on almost everything but there is one small thing that you don't agree on and I'd love to discuss it in a friendly manner because I think that is where we see people often not succeed so what we're talking about is this the pleasure trap versus the ego trap Wow this is not gonna be friendly just schedule skip over the the pleasure trap I think we both agree on is a hidden force that undermines health and happiness it's a major issue and it's one of these issues where you know for some people a little bit can lead to a lot and so it's a great challenge for people that that have this vulnerability to various substances for example an alcoholic that struggles with alcohol realizes they have to not drink in order to be able to be successful with their life because if they drink a little there often you know the next thing they know they're waking up underneath the bridge naked wondering how they got there so although some people can drink a little bit and do fine not everybody can and for people that can't they shouldn't so if you happen to be an alcoholic you know the best strategy is to avoid that particular trap by avoiding drinking and it turns out there's other problems besides drugs that are a problem for some people some people find certain foods and types of food particularly troublesome so if they indulge in those foods they can't just have one because or even if they do manage to just have one they spend so much energy trying to not get into the trap with it that it becomes you know more a problem than it is a benefit and so for those people particularly people struggling with weight issues or health issues they have to learn the pleasure trap can be a very insidious force it can be very disruptive and sometimes it's easier just to not do it at all than it is to tease yourself with this constant temptations under the guise that well you know if you're normally you should be able to do that I think for many of us we just have to realize there are certain areas in our lives it's easier to just say no and so if you're overweight or if you have health issues or you have addiction issues the pleasure trap is a dominant force and has to be identified but that's not necessarily everybody just like some people could have say have an alcoholic drink and not become a drunk those people it may not be quite as important of an issue and perhaps it's more important for them to be able to go along and get along and not do have people drinking and smoking at all you mix them you make them self-conscious and feel guilty about their addiction and therefore you know if you're one of those people that can do that you know you might choose to indulge to some level just hope that you don't crash and burn around it's priceless yeah I mean the truth of the matter is that there's really nothing that he's saying there that I would disagree with it all and the I think that probably probably we have to look a little finer detail to find out sort of where it is that we would disagree and and it's going to be these are going to be the disagreements are going to be in our in our parameter estimates about what we think about people in their behavior and we and I think both of us would acknowledge that where we disagree there's a lot of unknown territory so as I was actually talking with a Jay earlier Alan about something that that that sort of venting my spleen on some things that frustrate me about where I look at things differently than the rest of the world and actually where you and I this is where you and I actually completely share our vision and in rejection of mainstream psychology and mainstream treatment for eating disorders drug addiction or anything else in the Sun and that is that that from my vision the pleasure trap is actually remains massively underestimated and so and so I I believe that I actually don't believe the other leaders in our field actually understand this I think that they in other words we give lip service to the idea oh yeah yeah there's the problem it's difficult it's like no no you you've now just massively underestimated the problem and so I I think the pleasure trap is exceedingly difficult to deal with and I the question is mmm-hmm can we look at the pleasure trap itself as an either/or phenomenon so I think that anybody that has worked with the thousands of people that I know and I have worked with which is very very few people on the planet have worked with thousands of people but both of us house and as a result we are aware about how difficult this is for people to deal with it so the the the phrase mastering the hidden force is you know was not an accident al I came up with that description and it was very careful and very precise this was this was no small feat to actually come up with the subtitle of that book he also came up with the title but that was just lucky but the subtitle holds a warning and that is that you don't master anything easily the whole process of mastery is something that you expect to be very difficult and probably complicated and very challenging and a hidden force means that it's going to be tricky and if there's anything you know any good description that that was a masterful description of the problem it remains so underestimated that it is not actually seen for what it is and as a result we have a rather frustrating for me misunderstanding in the world about the poster trial and that is that people fail routinely with dealing with the pleasure drop despite you know sometimes incredible an outstanding treatment like they might get a true north like the kind of commitment they might be getting when they sign up and are re hooked into a J's community so anything were there or the mcdougal community in other words if you're making a major investment one would think that a major investment and a great deal of knowledge would generally have high expectations for success and it doesn't and it doesn't because of the potency of the pleasure drop okay so the and then what happens is is that people when they when they fail which they frequently do then if they're demoralized and confused they may look for other explanations as to why they specifically are having a problem and my answer is you're having a problem because this is exceedingly difficult the other answers that they get are there must be something wrong with you you must have some kind of trauma history and the trauma history is resulting in you being somehow compromised to the point where you can't succeed and that someone else's fault now this is relieving on the one hand because it advocates responsibility and makes it makes us look like we are not such a bad person after all that is struggling with us and failing that someone else's fault that did something bad to me 20 years ago over 40 years ago this is a mistake there's no truth in this whatsoever and there's overwhelming scientific evidence that rejects it the horrendous and disgusting misleading and deviously motivated research called adverse childhood effects research is isn't it is it is treason to this process there isn't anything wrong with you that caused this problem you are functioning perfectly in an environment for which we're not designed okay that is the problem and until you understand that deeply down into your bone marrow you're going to be looking for health in all the wrong places okay you don't have a problem because you're you know I don't know you that you need a bunch of extra nutrients for some vegan brownie this no the problem is is that it's difficult to eat a whole natural foods diet where Alan and I differ is actually his thinking is I think he will back this up his thinking is is that he knows how slippery the slope is and so what he's thinking is if you get super clean your palate will be super sharp and if it's super sharp then you are not likely to be slipping down the slope of supernormal stimuli it's basically at a really acute abstinence model very understandable I have met many people that have actually done it in been successful and they will tell you the story that they couldn't believe that they could get there and it took them many weeks to get there many weeks of self-discipline but when they got there they got there and then it got easy okay which is the story which eyelids but in the pleasure trap my and so Alan will say you know I II know whining just do it the whereas my problem with that approach even though I completely agree that there's logic to it and that it is a path up the mountain it's you don't necessarily have to get to the very top of the mountain to see a fantastic view and so the point is is that by setting the bar there you miss out on the opportunity that there may be people that can do a very good job but not an exquisite job and if we set the bar too high they can find that they are actually not willing and not really able mode additionally to set the bar that high and they're not going to get there but what they can get to is that they can get to really an excellent job okay and so my attitude is just to set the bar high enough that you get good enough results and that you that you can integrate that into your lifestyle if possible and the and if that if you can't do that yeah go ahead so I don't disagree with you on that but right thing the the standard has to be that you're able to make enough progress doing that yes getting healthier faster than you're getting sick yeah sitting you're feeling better faster than you're feeling bad and unfortunately some people they need you know a half-assed effort would be fine and they would be feeling pretty good when I some people require inordinate amounts of effort particularly if they're already sick if they're grossly overweight if they're an addict the amount of effort it takes to where they can feel like they're making progress that they're getting better is a lot oh sure they're pretty healthy and a lot of fortunate things go for maybe they don't have to be quite so rigid in order to be successful I see those people very often because they feel so good they don't bother to get you know come see me right a lot of times it's because they've struggled and failed and for those people the pleasure trap becomes the dominant threat these are maybe an important issue for everybody sure I don't disagree but that's the fair standard is are you getting healthier faster than you're getting sicker are you getting a decent rate and unfortunately that's where sometimes people's definitions get cloudy there was no question so I want to point out something that that I me I don't think even though I've said it in a thousand ways different ways I probably I've never never said it quite this way and that is that that there there can be an underlying an underlying mmm assumption but if you quote do something in the right way it's going to succeed and what I'm trying to say is that the answer to that is that that is false the truth of the matter is most people are not motivationally or personality constructed in such a way that they could do it perfectly and most people are not also constructed or motivated enough to do it well so the truth of the matter is is that the majority of people who will walk down this road an attempt to make major changes will fail and it's not because there's anything wrong with them it's because essentially you know if you if you are 5 foot 5 don't think you're going to be playing in the NBA okay so there's nothing wrong with you if you're 5 foot 5 or nothing okay but you're not gonna be playing in the NBA there was one guy that size in modern history that did his name is Mugsy Bogues I think you miss 5-3 ok he was the only one so all of the guys that are 5 foot 7 and shorter you will not play in the NBA and there's nothing in the world wrong with you ok the pleasure trap as I stated earlier this is aimed massively underestimated force people expect that they should be able to make these changes they listen to us and they listen to others and they learn and what they hear from others is to do this and do that and what they listen to us what we say is careful there's a big massive trap in the middle of this thing now do this and do that okay and people nod their head and say yeah and then they fail and then they say how come I'm failing and then we have trauma mongers who will say well the reason is there's something wrong with you and it's like no that isn't the reason we told you there's a big massive trap between you and your goal and it's the trap that is actually not discussed by any of the other leaders of the field save neal barnard who wrote the the food seduction braking the food seduction but other than that all of the people that we admire respect and who we basically agree with on the dietary processes that we have great respect for great scientists great educators but they don't talk about this and even when they hear about it it's quite quickly dismissed as if this is a no problem just adopt this thing and it's like no you guys do not understand what you're dealing with and so the my frustration these days is really not very much with the argument over the pleasure trap versus the ego trap that is an interesting and fascinating dynamic okay because those two things actually work at cross-purposes the higher you put the bar the the better your solution is to get out of the pleasure trap but the less likelihood that you will as a result of the ego traps intimidating but if you go too low you won't do well enough to get out of the program so these are a fascinating you know Mexican or Chinese finger traps that kind of trap that you can't pull them out too quickly because you'll catch yourself and so so Alan and I this has been an interesting discussion between Alan and I over the arocs about this and we both acknowledge it and we we might disagree a little bit on these parameters but the truth of the matter is it's the third issue that has been ignored by almost everybody and that is it's that's why we call the book a trap okay it's like listen this wasn't how to live healthily and do good diet etc and watch out for a few little things along the way to get gets you into trouble no that's not what we called it we called it mastering the hidden force that undermines health and happiness how big a warning you need and so this is I think like I said Alan and I are very close cousins in the way we think about this I'm just the nicer one yes you know the thing that's interesting I see though the same person that struggles maybe early and I'm looking down for prospective of 30 years yes right people struggle you know they weren't that sick they were trying to do this it was a problem this is the ego trap was a big issue though all these things came in then they got motivated yes thing that motivates people often is pain debility and fear of death sure now all of a sudden that same personality much same lifestyle all of a sudden demo sucks it up quits wining doesn't have to get enough feedback that they're actually now able to be successful with it they may not be perfect but they're doing well enough now that they can avoid at least the pained ability and fear of death that appropriately motivates them sure I remember Alan you and I had an acquaintance and I I don't it's actually a sad story but it's amusing and Alan's response that I wanted to share with people because it it summarizes the frustration of a pair of doctors who have spent a huge amount of their career trying to help people out of these traps so we have a mutual acquaintance and friend you might say he is sort of a distant his friend but we like them and he smoked his whole life and starting at age 12 and he did no matter how many times any of us said anything about it he said hey I'm just gonna do it and then when I die I die okay well about three months before his death he was diagnosed with lung cancer and then he was in excruciating pain that's what took him into the doctor and then he he informed us that he had quit smoking at which point Alan said Justin doc just in time 58 years plenty I Q and ie not enough motivation alright so yeah I completely agree with you Alan so I keep I tried to summarize this for AJ's people and for anybody else that essentially this is an underestimated problem this is why we have to focus very hard on our environments harder on your environment than you do on yourself because you aren't the problem your environments the problem and the and the issue is that it's going to take an unusual personality with an unusual level of motivation that's what's required and so the and so as you say there's there's actually quite a few of unusual personalities that roam around TrueNorth or chef AJ or anywhere else bunch of wack goes looking to do something really far out at first they're odd bunch of oddballs and so there's a lot of the unusual personality what there isn't is unusual motivation there's normal motivation there's significant motivation there's intelligent motivation but there isn't unusual motivation it's usually unusual personality plus unusual motivation that's what's required and that's what I think that would line up with your clinical experience well yeah this is why I never get selected for jury duty because I agree with you dr. Lisle and I agree with you dr. cold hammer but here's my dilemma I understand what you're saying dr. Lisle there are people and they seem to usually be more men or younger women that can go to the MacDougal program and do a very good starch based diet with a little flour sugar salt and get lean and reverse their disease but like dr. Goldhamer says just because something is less bad doesn't make it good just because someone is less fat doesn't make them thin and the reason I'm saying this is the people that come to me aren't necessarily the people with heart disease diabetes I'm not really trying to reverse a disease they want to be thin you even said yourself dr. Lisle that losing weight is the number one personal goal in the world and on what I have found for myself and the people I work with that you can't do a B diet and get an A figure and that at least for the people that I work with are generally women that are older 40s 50 60 70 s that have been overweight or obese their whole life right without you plus Goldhammer diet you're going to be less fat but but if you really want to be thin for whatever reason you're can't do that on a more flexible diet what do you think so what do you think that a lot a lot of people a lot of people would have lied to be a student's okay and of the people that actually were a student's the people that were a students are a small subset of the people that could have been a student's the people that could have been a students were out partying having gates okay and enjoying their existence while they were in college and the people that could be a students and didn't do that they are the a students okay so you're absolutely right if you if you doesn't matter quote how much you want it the truth is is that you got to pay the price so we'll find out how much if somebody really wants something that's difficult to do by how much effort and diligence they're going to put in to do it and what I argue is we're gonna watch that motivation be there the the world and its day that tells us what the story is and the date the day that explains to us that for most people it's not worth it okay that's what it's telling you so it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with them okay this is this is the disgusting explanation that is fed through you know all kinds of psychological sources it's like no that isn't the reason the reason is there's a big massive motivational confusing trap that the the organism is facing because it's an evolutionarily novel problem and they're not designed to solve it so it doesn't really matter how smart they are it doesn't really matter how motivated they are it doesn't matter about a lot of things doesn't matter how educated they are the truth is it takes an unusual configuration of circumstances to get extraordinary behavior out of an individual to have that kind of success that's the truth that in order to really evaluate whether or not the price is worth the benefit they have to get to the benefit so here's my promise they say well the price is huge and we agree it's huge the price of living healthy in a world designed to make you fat sick and miserable tremendous effort maybe beyond many people's current you know capacities the more motivated they are obviously the higher percentage of people are able to have it have a fighting chance sure people get a chance to see the benefit and get used to it and stop paying such a huge price that you pay initially they can probably evaluate is it worth the effort like the people that managed to get there rarely come back and say well you I lost all that weight I recovered my house it's not worth the trouble sometimes it's the vast majority now what they don't say that but their behavior tells you that that's precisely one of them it's because they haven't gotten to the point where they get the benefit without such a huge price not true ok this is you're now not understanding what you're saying you've had a lot of people that might lose 40 counts and they look great and then we see them three years later and they put back 25 pounds what took at what took place they did do it well they did it exceptionally well they got excellent results now if you were to say to them do you like these results they'd say oh my god these results are fantastic I'm so happy about it would you want to keep these results of course I'd like to keep these results how come you didn't the answer isn't because that they that they didn't understand the benefit they did understand the benefit but the truth of the matter is in the face of the pleasure trap in the face of the pleasure trap they ran on a daily an hourly basis the cost-benefit analysis of continuing to do that decision-making pattern and they didn't do it sometimes don't do it though because they've gotten out of pain so their mortgage is gone and now it's like well now that I don't have pain I wouldn't mind having a little of this and it doesn't weigh with it yeah yeah you're doing pretty well and okay so maybe they didn't maintain all the weight loss but yeah I feel pretty good and then slowly but surely they start getting sisters back then before long then you get the call which says I think I'm ready for another chance another round a control agreement but my point is to understand what's actually happening there that you're you're seeing the argument that if they would just get onto the mountain once and feel it that they'd never leave it and the answer is no that's not true well under estimating is sidious nature of the pleasure drop know definitely that but know this is why actually my approach there's many angles to this and we can see how slippery the problem is the there's a reason why when I'm focused on any kind of problem solving the thing that I'm most focused on is what I call esteem processes so I'm really trying to get away from gee how good was the result I'm trying to actually get people to pay attention to the internal process that takes place on a daily basis when they're internal audience observes that they have done behavioral excellence this is what I call self esteem so this is why I have a website's team dynamics and all kinds of videos on there trying to explain that you can get distracted from the most important success thread that exists and that success thread is what does it feel like inside to do it well and do it properly not once you've reached some top of the mountain place but in fact in the process of doing it extremely well the feeling that your internal but the problem is that voice is quiet and it's actually not nearly as loud as the evolutionarily novel supernormal feedback that you're going to get from some that you're going to eat so you you have to be aware of that feeling of behavioral excellence and essentially get quietly addicted to it to feel and that that's what I want people to focus on more than anything else you know we've had a number of patients particularly this year that have been at the extent senator for many many months some of them came in quite ill some of them came in with great goals you know large goals that they want to override I've really noticed over the years that people that are at the center for a while it gets easier and easier as they get into the habits and they have support and there's no temptation and then occasionally when they go home they get into struggles so what we're thinking is maybe we need to stop that and just not have them go home anymore and I have these problems because it's not the food that's the limiting factor when they're eating the food there's no temptation they're doing fine and they get the results that are predictable but when they go home and they're around the pleasure track and these social things and all that other stuff yeah that's where the real battle begins so but the point is people think it's the food that's the battle and I can tell you from looking at people that do struggle in the real world don't have that much trouble when all those channel factors and all the social tension systems are reduced it's not like they're oh they just can't stand it because the food no it's the circumstance right we've got to change the environment not worry about changing our personality yeah it's actually a that's why we wrote the book that we read which is that it's a comprehensive analysis of multi factors that's involved you're looking at the entire cost benefit an Olivia Minh as it confronts this problem day after day in situation after situation there are many multitude of factors that are involved and as a result we're gonna find that yeah even with the exhilarating process like the one that AJ went through of doing super well AJ being an unusual personality unusually motivated and super focused on keeping our environment clean you put all the three things together and you have someone who is not wobbled okay but the vast majority of people are not don't have such an unusual triangulation of horses and as a result like of course we do know that nothing like going too to the center and having your life turned around and knowing what that feels like literally the nervous system can feel normal ie good for the first time isn't they can remember that's highly motivated and so that that's going to capture motivation but that motivation is still going to run into the trap that surrounds you and so that that's what makes this problem very difficult if they go home [Laughter] all right all right actually we have a question live for Doreen that I thought was a good one and what did you speaking of pleasure trap what do you guys do for pleasure well the food the food is excellent pleasure and if I could ever get a date that would be pleasure Allan's married that's pleasure that's of course there's although you know we have the same normal nervous systems that everybody else does the difference is that we don't have to dip our oranges in chocolate no problem animals were designed by nature to not be pleasure deficient if they are in if there have a normal relationship with their environment that's why you've got pleasures or centers in the brain of every animal so we're not we're gonna do the same things everybody else is going to do except we're not gonna be getting trapped into super normal things that's all and you know with this more recent acute viral issue you know obviously there's the tragedy of all the deaths and disability and economic outflow and all that but the real problem is that they've closed basketball social basketball is closed you know the gyms are closed I mean that's that's a real tragedy so you know that's that's certainly been a source of deficit so we get back to playing basketball yeah that's the biggest problem in our world you guys have been you really have a lifelong friendship over 50 years do you remember the day you met and I do could you talk about it yeah I remember cuz I was we were enough it was the summer school before fourth grade and I remember watching dr. Lyle although back there he wasn't dr. loud cuz he didn't have it was a few years before he got his doctorate but if this was for three and I remember watching him interact with the other students and the teachers and I thought you know he's a lot smarter than the other kids and I said he's also a lot smarter than the teachers and so I realized he was really would be the best investment of energy trying to get to know him and I just made a very focused and concerted effort to do that and I absolutely remember those those first days it was just starting really stuck out in my head how much difference there was listening to him talk versus the other kids talk in this program yeah I think that's a that's an interesting story telling I'll tell you what the real truth is but I think Alan is known since he was a kid that he like can irritate people I think he considered that a nuisance in other words the fact that he was right they were wrong they were you know they do stupid things could be either dangerous or wasteful waste his time he just can't consider to other people just generally a nuisance but he could see that I got along with other people so he would somehow annoy them by by essentially doing things in a way that made sense to him and it would upset everybody then he knew that he could sort of smooth the little social edges around by putting me as a buffer in between so basically I'm a potholder that's more or less and I think that's there's I think we recognize that stuff we recognized early a an independence of thought I think more than any intelligence I think we both recognize that we were they were neither one of us is easily swayed by any public opinion and so I think we I think that's probably what we smelled very early and I'm more easily swayed than he is but but I was the closest thing you could you so that's I think that's what it was there's a Down assist you guys have any pictures of yourself when you were little together yeah I do actually I have a picture of us in junior high school we we got Alan was the graduated number one in our class and I graduated number two it's disgusting anyway the but the picture I had what it is remarkable because we think that were kind of growing up when we're in ninth grade but the truth of the matter is is that Alan looked an unbelievable amount like his son it's it's actually stunning the so I'll take that picture out for for him one of these days now that he cares story on that that first of all you need to remember that we although we had a very similar GPA Doug tended to take like the really difficult classes higher in math I made a concerted effort to try to not waste a lot of resources studying things I didn't think was going to have utility for me and we both had the same art class with Miss Nichols oh yeah I forgot to do my final project I just forgot and he did a rather elaborate very nice project and as we were walking into the room I pulled something out at the trash can and turned it in figuring well you know if you turn in something they've got at least past you and I called it recycled art and this is what recycled art was very popular and it was just a piece of paper with some dripping mess on it whatever and so waiked we both turned in our projects and they they took your best project and they put it up at the at the car wash and they took my project because it was the only one I turned in and put it up at the car wash the guy that on the car wash didn't it was like he didn't want it up in his car wash but it was just a dripping piece of trash and so he paid 50 cents to get it taken off the wall he bought just to get it off the wall well at the end of the year we get our grades and we both get B's and art and like you know I went to the professor third teacher you know art teacher I said who are you to judge my art everything I've done has sold my public has spoken I want an egg and she changed my grade to an end that was the difference in our GPA that I got an A in art and he got a B and he actually had a very nice project but anyway that is that is such a great story man you know about ten years ago I have a friend named Sheila and about ten years ago I found out that her sister was actually a classmate of you guys growing up her name is Monika and so when we're at a party I asked her because this is when I actually just started to know you guys it's been about 10 years and I asked her what you guys were like and she said that you guys were so smart that the teacher basically told you just to leave the class and play basketball and that if you would just leave she would give you aids is that a true story number one and number two did you guys know you were gonna be so successful in your chosen fields well I don't I don't know that we were really that smart we were you know we're that we were we were good students and there's a lot of smart kids like us around there I felt like there were smarter kids arrested in school the but there wasn't anybody crappier than Allen so I knew this and I knew that it would be in my best interest to free ride on that so I I knew in this world like a good animal that I wasn't gonna starve but he gets you far away from him so that that that was probably the deal but I don't remember about I remember Allen also finagling he is the ultimate finagler so he was never in class because he's always doing some special project and getting extra credit and for giving speeches when everybody else was terrified of giving speeches so he was the master of I'm doing an independent study and and I got to I learned a little bit about that and I pulled that off a couple times myself I never would have done it without following his lead so yeah he was quite a character maybe you can tell me if this is true doctors Monica said I guess dr. Goldhamer still likes to play poker and I guess he liked to play poker and there were people there maybe they were smoking cigars or something and he actually had like a little personal fan and he goes that's fine if you smoke and you bloated right back to them is that true did we lose him yeah is that true dr. Goldhamer yeah I wasn't too much of a fan of people blowing smoke in my direction so yeah he did he was but he had a little span you could put it in his pocket I've seen it and he set it out on the table and he flipping on he goes no I don't mind it awful most days he would smoke like if you were in a restaurant or if you were on a plane or something you know they there was no consciousness of no smoking or whatever so you know it seemed to me that if they wanted to produce the smoke they should be the ones filtering it with their own lungs and not having meat did you guys ever go on double dates what I remember that couple probably Cal two or three times we we our girlfriends in high school knew each other they were good friends so we went on a few dates no not nothing nothing I don't remember anything fancy about any of those things one party as a senior in high school went to that Z girl party and I remember watching a bunch of people throw up and think well we hadn't really been missing too much because most the time we were basketball with the lights outside on the clerk you know yeah yeah yeah we were we were a gang at 2:00 so at the end of the day what do you guys want to be remembered for fully functional autonomous healthy you think you're gonna outlive dr. Lyle dr. Goldhamer since you do an A+ diet and he only does about it you know an a-minus well I think you know how long you live is largely determined by genetics and luck how well you live is largely determined by you know what you put in your mouth and the lifestyle choices but the truth is the difference between us is so small I doubt that that really has a statistically significant impact you know the factors there's a point of diminishing return now the fact is every once in a while he might have that vegan carrot cake or something but I don't really think that objectively we can expect that those occasional variations are going to catch up on the physical health side and maybe some utility to it because he's willing to be a little bit more flexible there's probably a much larger percentage of people that he can go along and get along with and he's much less likely to get shot in the head there you go there we go I'm I'm which got leveraging my advantage that's why I Allen lives in a kingdom Greece the king he's got borders and a gate nobody can get in it's the True North health Kingdom that's what they oughta call it and so that's good so that you safe men make your own City you actually want it bigger which it I kind of dip the acres somewhere nobody we don't have the moat yeah you need a moat that's what you always wanted a moat yeah doctor well what is doctor bold what if what qualities of dr. Goldhamer do you admire most if any no I think I think I think he's he has an unusual tenacity to not let anything stop him and so this is a you know I I think all all of your extraordinary achievers have that I think Steve Jobs was like that Steve Jobs was you know massively unstable emotionally relative down but the same kind of concept that that it can be done and whatever the obstacles are we're just going to transcend the obstacles that's all there is that's all that's gonna I mean Alan never doubts that if it can be done then he can get it done and so I think that that is a that you know it was obvious early that that was true about him that he was unusually unstoppable and and I think it it actually was disturbing to adults even when he was you know 15 16 17 years old they were picking up on the notion that essentially this this kid was already an adult that he wasn't just an dull he was an extraordinarily competent adult and it became you know some people picked up and didn't fight it so that he walked in and pushed his way into Newman and health food store at 16 years old and within six months he was running place and and the the owner realized you know what I better off with this 16 year old kid running the place than me around the place and it was true and so yeah I think the the admiration isn't just at the level of ability which many people you know many bright people have a lot of ability but of those there aren't that many of them that are are essentially unstoppable and that's a that's a really unusual quality and it's certainly admirable fortunately as I tell him he seems awfully ruthless at time not not that he's not that he's unfair and thing but relentless and it's like I said good thing you weren't a criminal because nothing would stop you wanted to get into Fort Knox he'd get into Fort Knox and but but fortunately he's on the side of the good guys and trying to help people and he won't let anything get in the way of that that's beautiful - remember what quality of doctor Lyles to you and my or most you know I always admire people that have skills that are beyond my own people that can do things I can't do that thinking in a way that I I'm not able to do and so it from very very beginning I recognized that in and in dr. Lyle and and that's really proven true you know really unusually creative way of integrating information and processing it and so and I had given no credit for that by the way because you know he's explained to me that these are largely genetically determined characteristics that he has really no claim to you know having a accomplishing any more than somebody that's very tall you don't go oh my god you're six foot ten oh wow I just so admire you so much because you don't there's six ten because they're tall he happens to have these skill sets the admirable part of it is he actually made use of it he's used it in a productive and creative way to actually do something that I consider worthwhile so I think that's really the goal there is that you've got this ability to process information integrate it and then spit it out in a way that actually is useful that's great thank you just get him off his butt so he can finish this book he's working on which if he stays focused you do in relatively short order we'd all be a whole lot better served because of it I see I've heard he's read to me enough of it that I know that he's got gold there and he's just kind of taking his time perfection is definitely not the friend of good and so it's got to be perfect and so did your parents like each other like like like you know my imagine when you were friends growing up maybe you went to each other's house to play or do things together so did I what his mom called the outdoor boy actually yeah you have to remember AJ Allen's parents were the first to understand that at 12 years old he was an adult so already they didn't have anything to do with us so I would come over to his house and they they weren't really interested in talking to me because Allison my relationship was already like all business goals plans we're not sharing with the freaking parents they have no idea so no there was no really family integration they'd certainly knew of each other but no Allen was running the show when Allen came to my house I was actually my dad was a very capable very strong terrific human super moral and tough as hell and and I I've rarely seen my dad sort of back off in deference to anybody and when I saw my dad backing off to deference to Allen at 16 I'm wide okay I sort of expected Allen to get his comeuppance and he did went the other way and I'm like oh okay well I know what this means for the world world better look out he got out of some of his chores that's all now that that was all true what I just said well you both have siblings did your siblings like the other person I don't think my brother was older yeah enough older that we didn't interact with you know on a social level and Margie Doug's sister was really good because she was really tough and so if we ever ran into trouble we could threaten him bike you know leave us alone and we'll tell Marty no I just wrapped one memory of mark which just that for some reason Alan Alan irritated Marc Marquez Marc was about 18 and we were 12 and and Alan did something and there's some interchange between the two of of it and mark takes Alan and just throws him against the wall and I'm like I I was totally shocked like III could this man vile bit Alan of course like 30 seconds later was totally fine it's just like you know it it was he's gotten work to go you've gotten marks sort of like you go to him and he lost it he didn't do any damage I thought so there Alan was testing the limits of what he could do to people and make sure that he was still safe say tested with his brother I remember that all right so you guys are on your deathbed there's there's no coal you're in your 90s or 100's whatever but you if there's just no hope you're gonna die would you maybe eat something off plan I mean well certainly that's not the time that you'd want to be eating off worth the most to give yourself the chance to really fulfill your potential of going out and in quota you want to have a good life but you also want every to death you don't want to have the last your wife suffering as a consequence of eating some greasy slimy dead decaying highly processed food and then suffering the consequence of it no I wouldn't wish that on anybody there you go AJ now you see now people can sympathize with me now they see what I've been putting up with now there you go thank you you know what I would duck like if I knew I was gonna die I need like a Cinnabon or something yeah root beer float that it would be with with vegan ice cream yeah something like that I think that's about what it is nice well this has just been such a fun treat for everyone I thank you guys so much for being here and if it ever works out that we can do this again people are just loving this so much great Thank You AJ it's a pleasure this is so fun thank you so much dr. Goldhammer when you got to say goodbye you have to still time you're three hours behind see what see why I moved down here alright folks I'll take care of you one thanks so much for watching this live impromptu session please come back tomorrow at a regular time at 11 a.m. Pacific time for none other than dr. Caldwell

Channel: CHEF AJ

Views: 25,498

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Id: ICpVj2XV3LU

Length: 54min 40sec (3280 seconds)

Published: Sun Jul 12 2020