How the war on Gaza has destroyed our political system | Matt Kennard interview

the ICC is now seeking arrest warrants for the Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his defense minister YF Galan and yet you still have Biden who's in the White House who's who's a Democrat giving undy support the Republicans even worse here you have Rishi sunak giving undy support and K maybe even worse as well so people are like well do I live in a democracy I can't vote again I can't vote for a party that's against this genocide or against this massacre people are quite shocked because it's never been clearer that there is a real lack of democracy I think the whole mask has been pulled off the system I don't think you will stop with Gaza I think that once people realize that they're being lied to or at least they don't have a choice on something as big as Gaza they start looking at other things and think well maybe uh maybe both the parties are an are an expression of the same system M Kenard welcome back to politics Joy thanks for having me again man it's a pleasure how you been I've been all right yeah I've been uh following the election stuff which has been interesting mhm uh well The Independents anyway I'm really followed much of the uh starm Sun next stuff mainstream parties yeah we're here to talk because the racket your latest work um tell us about it it's a big book um and it's kind it's an ambitious book and basically what it tries to do is explain um the mechanics of the American Empire um and most of the reporting from it is from all around the world it's from Haiti to Honduras to South Africa to Egypt and most of the report was done while I was at the financial times um a while back and really while I was there I was kind of understanding that we have this Major Force in the world the most powerful Empire in the history of the world everyone says that um experts um uh journalists anyone who who's studied Empires over history knows that the US is way surpasses anything that's come before uh and it's not um in the game to spread freedom and democracy which is what they tell themselves and they tell the world um it's there to do what every Empire has done in history which is to um take resources um and exert control over the rest of the world um but at the financial times uh and the rest of the mainstream media you can't talk about the US Empire I mean you can't even talk about the reality of the US Empire you can't even use that term really you'll get you'll be able to use terms like uh Russian imperialism and Chinese imperialism and of course their superpowers um that that that are interested in the same things but when it comes to the US Empire and it's adjunct the UK you can't talk about it in those terms so I gathered um lots and lots of information from the horse's mouth um that kind of explained how this system works this us imperial system um and at the Financial Times Obviously when you go places you have access to everyone so I was I'd go to Haiti they sent me to Haiti the year after the earthquake and I I could go and speak to the Ambassador had top echelons of the World Bank I was actually working for the Ft in Washington as well I'd go into the Obama White House if I wanted to call up one of his administration people that I could do that easily but obviously um it wasn't really in tune with my politics uh the finan so I knew quite early on that I would leave so I kind of thought well I should collect as much information as I can cuz I'm never going to get this opportunity again and I I think that was a good prediction um I've definitely burnt all my bridges with the mainstream media I'm not going to be sent back to Washington by any newspaper in the UK I don't think but um yeah the book so so the mechanics are are qu are quite simple really um the the US Empire is is uh different to other empires in the sense that it doesn't operate formal colonies although it does have some but it's not like the British Empire in that sense but what it h what what it is is an informal Empire or an O what's called an Open Door Empire so what that means is that um and this was erected pretty much after the second World War earlier as well but it says if a country is open to our corporate interests and investment from the US uh and doesn't uh and basically does what we say in a sort of international setting diplomatically that's fine we're fine with it we're not going to we don't need you to be a formal Colony but if you elect a leader or a leader comes to power that threatens those corporate interests we'll take you out uh or will launch a massive uh program of sub auge to try and get you out through intellig agencies or whatever it is I mean this goes I mean we all know the famous cases like Salvador aend in Chile in 1973 Venezuela in 2002 which the Bush Administration admitted they were part of the coup there that was eventually overturned so it's a really Global picture of how the system operates and it's also an analysis of the mainstream media because as I said at the start it is in insane really that you can have the most powerful Empire in the history of the world that is I think the governing Dynamic of international Affairs it's impossible to really understand International Affairs unless you understand the power of the United States within it and it's unmentionable in the M media so it's invisible Empire MH um kind of euphemistic isn't it like you'll hear phrases like unipolar moment or American hegemony yeah but the Lexicon is different like you said because you will talk about you know uh you know Russian imperialism or Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine or you know relation of great power struggle between China and America but it's always it's yeah it is it's kind of inferred or implied when you're talking about America whereas media is more inclined to sort of call it what it is when they're talking about other nations yeah just I wasn't just to talk about the media aspect of it for a second I guess formerly F co-founder of Declassified which is very explicit and sort of um you know does shine a light seek to shine a light on Western foreign policy Western military policy there's clearly a Divergence from sort of the ft's line of reporting on this so you're actually in quite privileged position to talk about when your journalism does start to look at the things that the state and the establishment doesn't want people to look at how you get treated versus when you're at you know an established Legacy brand like the Ft yeah well it's m it's completely different firstly you lose the access completely so one of the amazing things about being at the Ft or the BBC or wherever it is is that you it's it's kind of easy because if you want a story you call up someone who's who's got a in a position to make a policy and they'll tell you something and that has that that's a story by itself so it's it's kind of that that client journalism is very easy to do when you withdraw yourself from that um you you firstly you're marginalized um so you don't have access to institutions that will be able to get your your journalism out but secondly you lose that access so you have to find the information other ways but one of the major things I found that the classified is that there is a lot of information out there that's just not picked up I believe that the way that the that the propaganda system works here in the United States uh and probably in Europe I haven't looked at it as closely but is propaganda by a mission so and and the ft is a very good newspaper it's the best of the bunch in my opinion and I see I saw that from the inside they're very very um uh uh they tell you early on you have to get everything right the it's a very fact-based newspaper but the way the propaganda works for them is they're not lying to you but they leave out all the information that you need to to have a realistic understanding of the issues they're talking about so uh and it Declassified we we we actually wanted to model our journalism on FD journalism we wanted to make it everything fact checked and and and referenced and and not really have any verbiage in that sense and um and then you find that you can there's there's information uh everywhere that people just aren't picking up I'll give you one example which was actually quite a crazy example I think it was last year um uh some lord I can't remember if it was a Tory Lord or a labor Lord or a crossbencher but some Lord asked the question of the ministry of Defense about the challenge of two tanks that we sent to Ukraine they said are you cuz they said are you using are you also sending depleted uranium shells which is what they use on those tanks and this was an a parliamentary answer they said yes we are so and then it kind of stayed on a parliament website my colleague Phil Miller who's a great reporter saw it public the story by the afternoon Putin was talking about it in a press conference uh by the following day he had said he was going to deploy tactical nukes to Belarus based on the fact that Britain was sending depleted uranium shells to Ukraine now you can say Putin's reasons for doing it were probably much more complicated than just the article but you if Phil hadn't taken that story which was just out there that would have never entered the main the the information system at all so there's all this information out there that is just not covered by uh journalists and and in the case of the US Empire I mean I saw it in the in the in the Ft in very explicit ways as well like that it also works by uh just a a way of talking about International Affairs which is conducive to the state narrative and and again I can be specific about that in the sense of like I would write an article about Hezbollah and you'd write Iranian backed militant group Hezbollah but yet you would never write us backed wahhabi dictatorship in Saudi Arabia which is true they're both true right why why and and those kind of ticks that people journalists aren't even aware that they're they they're expressing or or enforcing are everywhere and it gives this and and and and it's all in the interests of the power centers basically mainly the state in in that kind of case but also corporate interest as well so um it's very very important to to kind of um uh clear away all that all that pollution that is pumped into to our information system and makes it really hard to understand what what is going on um and as I say the FD is the best of the bunch but it's still deeply embedded in the propaganda system um it's just better than the others I wouldn't have expected us to be getting so deep in sort of linguistic analysis in the first five minutes but but there you go um okay so you you you you clearly you know you're an expert in international Affairs foreign policy and I think one of the quite striking differences between British electoral polic politics and American electoral politics is that when you get to a presidential election in the states foreign policy is a massive part of the discourse you know journalists will regularly ask the candidates there you know what's your position on Ukraine what's your position on Israel um and admittedly that's because the president has I would say a much greater degree of sort of agency and Authority when it comes to foreign policy than our prime minister does but there's a really significant in terms well yeah always significant conflict happening right now right in relation to Gaza and the massacre that's happening there and I wonder if that in your view changes will change the sort of role of foreign policy in the general election that's happening in the UK right now and if you could focus your answer in particular in relation to Gaza useful I mean um well firstly it relates to the book in in Gaza in the sense that Israel could not operate without the United States it's effectively a colony of the United States like it's Israel's population is 9 million people it's the same population as London where we sitting is GDP smaller than Sweden um it gets $4 billion in military aid every year from the United States and all sorts of other um uh uh uh there's Al sorts of other elements to that support as well um so it couldn't exist and but then what you see is that um both parties uh the mainstream parties in both the US and UK are just uh vying to outdo each other in in giving undying support to uh Israel while it commits uh awful awful crimes some of the worst Crimes of the modern era and I think personally that it's been a massive wakeup call to a lot of people because um obviously there Israel's been investigated uh by the by the world court for genocide it's uh the ICC is now seeking arrest warrants for the Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his defense minister YF Galant and yet you still have Biden who's in the White House who's who's a Democrat giving undy support you have the Republicans even worse here you have Rishi Sun giving undying support and K maybe even worse as well so people are like well do I live in a democracy I can't vote again I can't vote for a party that's against this genocide or against this massacre um and I think that that that is a real from from my conversations with people that aren't into politics people are quite shocked because it's never been clearer that there is a real lack of democracy and I think to go to your question about foreign policy in my experience here and I think it's the same in the United States the two mainstream parties are quite similar on domestic policy but there are small variations on foreign policy they're in nearly complete lock step because the political system is is is operating above a system where policy really made on foreign policy because it's an imperial system which is being designed in the state department or in the foreign office or in the ministry of Defense um and uh I think that it's never ever never been as exposed as this because the other thing is that this uh this Colony effectively Israel they're talking in ways that the the West don't talk like even in the war in Iraq which was a major crime an illegal War as called by kofan when he was head of the UN um Bush and Blair niced it up they've said they weren't going out saying we're dealing with human animals or we're not they weren't saying we're going to starve you to death um whereas the Israelis are just promoting the fact that they there's a genocidal intent in in their government so I think that and and still in that in that without the pr that our governments are still in lock step and in fact just the other day the House of Representatives vote to sanction ICC officials that had issued arrest Wars so I think the whole mask has been pulled off the system uh and I don't think you will stop with Gaza I think that once people realize that they're being lied to or at least they don't have a choice on something as big as Gaza they start looking at other things and think well maybe uh maybe both the parties are are an are an expression of the same system and I think one of my beliefs is that the two-party system is is is one of the biggest um uh uh promoters of oligarchy oligarchy being the rule of a small Elite because if you can Capt if you've only got two parties that can effectively form a government and you capture both of them um then you've got the appearance of democracy because people go out and they can vote for either side but if both parties are working for the same oligarchy then it's beautiful it's a beautiful system um and in fact if you look in Latin America and there's a lot of this stuff in the book actually about because the real um resistance to the American Empire in recent years has been in Latin America independent governments have come up so if you look at like Venezuela under Chavez or or Bolivia under Evan Morales um Ecuador and the Rael Korea all of those leaders had to create new parties to get into Power because the existing parties kind of are around to stop people like that getting into power and actually a very interesting case is Mexico where I lived actually and there's a whole chapter on the zapatistas in in the book but I lived in Mexico and I was there um when uh andr Manuel Lopez obor amlo the Mexican president uh lost the election in 201 uh 13 I think it was or 12 uh and it was stolen from him uh and he created a new party a couple of years later called Moreno and then four years after he was in power as president and he's left with 80% approval ratings his successor M has just won with a massive Landslide and that was with a new party that was created literally 10 years ago so I think that there's lessons for the left there there's lesson for all of us to understand uh what the two-party system does um and uh I think that I my my my belief is that this is a real turning point in world history I know that sounds um very uh maybe a bit overwrought but I really I really think the length of it eight months of it yeah eight months of and it's been live streamed on our phones and everyone's outraged I think that's a key moment actually it's the sort of um I'm not going to sit here and wax lyrical about like the great democratization of social media because there's currently very serious issues about sort of the concentration of power of our information systems the um mega corporations with GDP is bigger than a lot of countries that control those systems nonetheless though there is to a certain extent a kind of proliferation and democratization of information which leads to this really um powerful and peculiar political effect of disassociation right you see the horror and you pick your conflict it's not just Gaza it could be Ukraine it could be uh Congo it could be anywhere and you can quite easily and quickly see the horror you can you can and I'm I'm don't I don't need to be explicit about it we've all seen it right and so on the one hand you're there I you just had your dinner you sat at home you watch the video and you're like Jesus [ __ ] Christ how are we allowing this to happen this is appalling on a moral level on a personal on a human level I'm usted by this you switch on the 7:00 news 6:00 news and it's like we will we'll support Israel until until we win yes and I think a regular person sits there what on Earth are you talking about what do you mean yeah why why are we not talking and I think that's why a huge amount of the anger about immediate ceasefire and the sort of relatively don't want to say a name but political discourse within the labor party about well we're going to have a a staggered and limited and then we'll eventually get there or whatever it is and people going no no no no no no no no you stop this now yeah and that has the potential to be a really powerful political force I don't know if it will be yeah for sure and I think that also alternative media because it's exposed that the media doesn't do its job like at De classified we're the only Outlet really that's revealed the UK military role in Gaza which is extensive you know you talk a little bit about that yeah uh well we've been on it now for seven or eight months from the start so the UK has been um uh massively involved in in in the military operation and there's a lot of information we don't know so for just to give you some examples the story I published recently like a couple of weeks ago was about how the UK has flown 200 spy flights over Gaza since December nearly one a day um and they uh they they they announced it in December but they they refused to say how many they were flying so you would think it was to do they said it was only to do with hostage rescue so you thinking maybe a couple of flights a month or something or what because the Israelis control the Gaza Street what more information but they're doing nearly One A Day 6- hour flights over Gaza collecting all sorts of intelligence they won't tell us what they're doing with that intelligence what Ministries they're sharing it with with the Israelis so there's that there's also 60 Mass massive um uh cargo flights which have gone from uh various UK bases to Israel since since October 7th uh which we're not allowed to know is what what's on them um those direct flights are they stopping at aceria or no well so we don't know where they're coming from because again the government won't tell us but I constructed a timeline from ateri and 36 of those were from aceri so an criteria for viewers is a huge sprawling air base on Cyprus that we retained after Cypress got independence in 1960 or did Cyprus get independence because Britain retained 3% of cyprus's land mass um and they have this massive B RAF base uh um called aceri in the west and they have another huge Bas in the East called the kelia which is all intelligence uh um and surveillance uh facilities um and and that that has been Central to the whole of the the operation in Gaza in terms of getting International kit to Israel in fact hatet the liberal uh newspaper in in Israel they said that they said it's the international hub for for for getting stuff to to Israel uh again we're not allowed to know what's going on there so we've asked uh and and MPS have asked for information about things like are the US Air Force uh sending weapons to Israel via criteria and they said we can't comment on allies movements on our on our bases and stuff and in fact the interesting thing is we did a whole sort of stream of stories this was amazing to me actually and it became a huge issue in Cyprus President of Cyprus had to comment president of Northern Cyprus had to comment and then there were huge B uh um uh uh demonstrations in liol the Second City in Cyprus which is next to RF and then one actually in RF criteria and through the whole thing even when presidents were talking about it there wasn't one mention of it in the UK media it was and it was all because of us it shows the power of what you're talking about social media and the internet allowing the diffusion of information and journalism that would otherwise get completely um uh uh out of the out of the public realm um but yeah and and then the other thing is the special forces which again we know nothing about because uh we can't have special forces are maybe the most secret part of the British state after MI5 MI6 g6q special forces are even more secret uh and it was reported in the sun on October 27th that um the SAS had deployed to Cyprus um to the British bases on Cyprus uh for Gaza uh hostage rescue uh operations that that's what they said this the leaker uh the following day a d notice was sent out uh by the ministry of Defense now the D notice committee which a lot of people don't know about is this committee which uh is run by the ministry of Defense but has sort of intelligence officials as well and they meet every six months at the ministry of Defense with us collection journalists and basically discuss what they can and can't publish and um uh uh they sent out and and then that committee has has these things called advisories that they send out to all editors I don't know if you've ever got one at Pol Jo politic they're not talking to us no but they uh so they sent so they send out these advisories they say please don't publish anything about certain things and and they also say don't publish this the notice uh and usually that's and they sent they sent them out actually after the Edward Snowden leaks in 2013 and the guardian didn't abide by them uh bravely and rightly but anyway they sent out uh this and then they sent one I think it was probably a mistake on their they sent one to the Socialist worker newspaper which is this tiny sort of weekly newspaper and they publicized it so we knew about the den notice but since that day October 28th not any information has been uh uh uh published about what uh uh how many uh troops were are in Israel because I imagine those some of those uh military transport flights from Ria taking soldiers SAS soldiers and and regular soldiers as well and probably the SAS is in an advisory role about the ground operation or were uh they're probably not knowing what I know about previous operations they're probably not on the ground in Gaza but they're in an advisory role and you're talking about a country that is being investigated by the world court and the ICC for war crimes and and um uh genocide this is stuff we need to know this is stuff that could get ministers prosecuted y for sure and it should be because the other thing is that that the go the UK government really really doesn't want this information out because I think they're aware that they could be liable um like one of the funniest um uh um uh interactions with between some MPS and and the ministry of Defense through parliamentary questions was this MP asked well as I mentioned like is the US Air Force using RF criteria to to send weapons to Israel which would make Britain liable like criminally liable they said we we don't comment on all movements so he he said another question he said okay fine don't tell me if they're how many are landing or what's on it just tell me do are you aware when US Air Force flights land what is on them they said well we can't even tell you that so they so they're scared to even say that they have any information about what's being done there because they know it can be used against them uh and uh yeah so it's extensive and again none of it has got into the mainstream media I mean another another one which story I broke was the the the UK military was refusing to say how many U Israeli military flights had landed in the UK since the bombing of Gaza began then I independently constructed a Time line and I found that they' landed in four different locations subsequent to that the government changed their policy and then admitted that nine Israeli military flights had landed one at Glasgow preswick Airport and subsequent to that uh the the S&P PR sended the access that the Israeli Air Force has to Glasgow presswick and then an MP asked a question set like later down the line a couple of months later to say okay what's the update updated number cuz the nine was a couple of months before they said oh no we CH changed policy again now with there's a blackout so like it's just being constantly changing I think that they're just scared because it's out of control it's going in Gaza and the more that comes out about them being complicit materially and it's material complicity then uh they they they should be prosecuted I don't I don't think that would happen but um but but obviously we're in New Territory because the ICC has never issued an aest or sought an aest warrant against the Western leader and they've now done it I think the um you know the anyone with sort of a line of logic try and walk onto an RAF base or an RAF Runway right you're not get you're not getting anywhere near it it's a military facility the idea that our Air Force our military forces would not know what is coming in and out of the base that they are very strict in control everyone everyone who's there they know who they are they know where they are they know what they're doing there yes it's it's kind of it stretches the limits of our belief that a transport plane would land and they wouldn't know who was flying it why it was there was inside it um not least just some like basic security by the way I just add that it's important people know this the same the same policy operates in the UK because we have 12 over 12,000 US military personnel permanently based here and there are 11 RAF sites but they're not RF sites yes they're called RF sites and but they're least of the Americans and effectively American operated and there's two big ones near near London called milden Hall and lak and Heath Lake and Heath where they've talked they're talking about redeploying nuclear weapons there but anyway they operate as black sites for the Americans they can't you can't get any information about what the the americ if you send a Freedom of Information at request or an MP asks a question about what the Americans are doing there including are they using them to transport weapons they said we don't comment on uh allies movements in Britain so that they have complete Black sites within Britain it's not known about uh but that goes to that goes to an interesting uh part of Britain which is actually in the book as well is about how controlled we are by the United States because like that book uh the book was mainly written about weak States in in the in the in the developing world like Haiti or um uh Honduras these places that traditionally have just been completely under the control of the US and you imagine that okay Britain's a bit different you know um we we're a sovereign country uh but you realize firstly the the military presence that I've talked about uh the intelligence presence the NSA Edward snowden's leaks revealed that the NSA which is the Americans uh uh uh main surveillance um agency the National Security Agency it effectively runs gchq bued gchq is Britain's biggest intelligence agency and they have a site in in Coral called gchq bu his leak show they effect they pay for it and they effectively run it so you have our our actual intelligence facilities being run by the Americans the interference in the political system like through groups like British American project which was set up with by with US Embassy funding in the 80s to try and cultivate the left away from Anti-Imperialist positions you when you start scratching the surface you realize that it's like we talked about Israel but um the the American control of our political system is even greater and and it was really explicit in 2019 with Jeremy Corbin you know Mike Pompeo when he was Secretary of State came here soon about six months before the election he was also the director of the CIA from 2017 to 18 and Pompeo came here in 2019 and he said um we'll do our this is a quote our level best to stop Corbin become getting elected and you you just think okay that should be a major major Scandal you have the foreign minister Secretary of State of of America coming and saying we're going to stop the labor of the Le the leader of the labor party becoming prime minister and we don't know what that meant and what they were doing in the background but again the mainstream media barely covered that it was written up in the papers but can you imagine if the r if that had been Russia talking about uh any politician uh it would for interference in a democratic process of course and it is and the CIA experts at that but we don't know what they do here but it is quite it was it has been quite revelatory at deusi understanding how much Britain is controlled by it because we've only ever had since the Second World War Two labor leaders which have not being atlanticist or had uh not being signed up to the American Imperial project and that's Michael foot who was leader from 1980 to 83 and Jeremy Corbin and we know cuz you're probably a bit younger than me but we know we know about about what happened with Corbin we were too we weren't born when uh when Michael foot was around but it was the same thing and Michael foot's 1983 Manifesto you know it's called the longest suicide note in history if you it's worth reading because it's really radical he says we want to withdraw from NATO like stuff that you just can't you couldn't get nearer a Manifesto now a lab Manifesto even under the Corban and but he did say that but he also said when Warsaw pack is is disband as well it wasn't a unilateral thing but um but British American project was set up explicitly to fight back against what Michael foot did and I and and this whole thing of like uh why why is it that we've only had Michael foot and jerem MC is because we've had massive interference from the US state in VAR through uh intelligence agencies through uh campaigns through different groups that have been set up and it continues um but again it's completely secret there there's some good work done on the British American project by uh P foot but since then not much um and I think that it's really got a really got to change because um the American Empire as I said is is the most powerful Empire and it's and and it's causing Mayhem around the world and has been for since since second world war um I that's right I I kind of to try and take some of these points back to sort of first principles and whether it's I I'll use both the example of the special forces and possibly also our sort of discussions about our our alliance with Israel which is that your arguments about transparency and sort of um journalistic rigor investigation in relation to the Special Forces for example I think the argument will come back is like well if if we're open and honest about what these organizations are doing uh they're kind of redundant to us you know the the the purpose of the Special Forces is to operate in secret to do I'm not advocating to do the things that we don't want people to know about right yes similarly if we talk about um you know our military intelligence uh political support for the state of Israel and we take that back to First principles and whether that's sort of you know ball declaration all the way through to now but essentially we create the state of Israel um in response to the Nazi horror the 2,000 years of sort of pograms and persecution that existed before and we can say we are appalled by the way that Israel is Prosecuting its latest war in Gaza we can say that we're appalled by some of the things that Netanyahu and his cabinet say and do but if we and it's a slightly reductive argument but we come back to First principles which is essentially that if we want to adopt the position that the state of Israel should exist we're kind of stuck supporting them in the way that we are yeah well well I don't think the state of Israel does have a right to exist in a way in in in the way it does I mean like uh I think that there should be a one-state solution and they they should incor because I've been to Palestine twice and uh effectively the West Bank is part of Israel it's just it's a it's running in a parted way they they they just have little cantons that you to get like a mile can take like four hours because you have to go all checkpoints so there's different cards if you're Israeli or if you're Palestinian and let's be honest about how Israel was created yes it is a British creation right we we the batt for decoration was 19177 so actually and immigration was happening way before the Holocaust as well so it wasn't explicitly reaction to the the Holocaust although obviously that was used as a justification uh because because of the horror that it was that they needed their own country the Jewish people but um they it was created in in 1948 when 800,000 people were ethnically cleansed from Palestine indigenous people put in little bits of territory like Gaza uh West Bank um and then uh after 1967 Israel kept on expanding they could have been a two-state solution un partition plan of 1947 if you look at it it's like I mean I would the the Arab world didn't accept it because obviously they wouldn't who's going to accept just an imposition of a Col a western Colony but it it looks it's like half and half like and now if you look at what Israel Palestine is it's just like G this little strip in Gaza which is basically destroyed and then the West Bank is just chopped up into little they call it swiss cheese that's what Israeli planners call it so I don't think Israel has a right to exist if that's how it's going to operate uh I think that Israel has a right to exist I I don't think I don't want to have a state I don't believe a state should exist based on a one racial or ethnic group being supreme Supreme at all times because the other thing is 20% of the Israeli population are Palestinian right but they have to stay a minority otherwise Israel will stop being a Jewish State and that's his whole that's the whole reason for it so there's a lot of things that are offensive to Progressive sensibilities that are mixed up with the fact that of course you're talking about the history of Jewish persecution and stuff but the reality of it is is a it's a horror show like the West Bank is it is it's wor like Desmond Tutu went there many years ago and it was not even as bad as it is now and he said it's worse than what we had in apar South Africa um so I think that what should happen is that that they should allow all the refugees to go go home we don't want anyone to die uh we don't want anyone to be killed all the all the all the war criminals should seems such an obvious thing to say out loud do you know what I mean but but that there has to be a way to allow uh some uh uh restitution and and and rectification of the massive crimes that have happened because this is the this is the problem for me right because pre before this latest round of you know to use the Israeli parli mowing the lawn right yeah I would have if you just said to me how do you think this this is resolved I would say one state solution right in in the style of sort of Chomsky Pape those those guys who know a lot more about this than I do and then this horror happens and I don't know if it's even feasible at this point to suggest right that any kind of reconciliation between those two societies is possible because if you look at the discourse in Israel the then what happened on October 7th has radicalized more even even more so than a lot of them already were and there's a broader conversation about sort of demographic changes and the politics of the radical right in Israel which I don't think we probably have time for today but nonetheless they're sort of hardened right in in their feeling towards the Palestinians equally and equally understandably the more than 100,000 people that have been killed and maimed in Gaza now you do not have to be a sort of a genius in radicalization to understand what the consequences of that are going to be for the future generations of Palestinians that come up right it's they they are going to want to violently resist the Israelis yeah understanding or at least in my sense understanding that you know there is no peace without Justice right there has to be whether it's the prosecution of people who have committed war crimes um you know and was interesting actually when you were talking there kind of about you know aarid in the West Bank looking at Northern Ireland as an example of Jerry mandering what you try what happens if you try to enshrine a kind of um well religious in that case majority it can change as it is changing now yeah and the consequences of it I don't it almost just seems completely impractical to me to suggest that we can live in a societ that the Israelis and the Palestinians can live in a society side by side at this point I don't know how feasible it is but it might not be but that what it's the two-state solution is also not feasible and the Israelis have never really believed in it because if you look at and that's not just Netanyahu cuz they now try and pin the blame on him in the '90s he had this he he had this thing called Alan Alan plus plan which was basically just that the Israelis would take 60% of the uh West Bank all of area a and and have like uh four non-contiguous like uh cantons and and then Ehud Barack who was the labor prime minister he he he oversaw the biggest extension of settlements uh in the whole period and that's labor so it's a bipartisan desire for to take the West Bank because in in in sort of it's eret Israel it's greater Israel that's what they want they left Gaza because gaza's kind of a Backwater there wasn't much that they wanted there but they're never they've never shown any since 1967 any desire to to withdraw from West Bank along the 1967 lines the green line and establish a Palestinian that if that if that the Israelis have been an obstacle to that for decades and decades and they're not going to allow it so that's also not possible so that's what needs to happen in my opinion the only way there's ever ever going to be any kind of Justice or peace there is if the West conditions its support uh on Israel acting like a normal country and acting in a peaceful way I mean if you look recently about the Yemen conflict with Saudi Arabia like that's been going on basically inflamed by the US and the UK and and the UK again that's a whole another conversation has been materially involved in that and ba systems but the Chinese came in and within a couple of weeks there was peace like the we present the propaganda system presents the us as the neutral Arbiter and the promoter of Peace in Palestine and Israel Palestine and they're trying but they're not they're on the side of the arabes and that's the problem we need a neutral Arbiter someone who can who says to Israel no you have to do you have to abide by international law I mean I just for me I just find Zionism a strange concept if if I said to you like you're just going to imp impose a country on on a country that already exists kick out most of the indigenous people and then make it so anyone who is Jewish can go and live there like I don't even know if I qualify but my dad's Jewish I don't know if that means I could qualify maybe it does I've know I've got no connection to it yet you have millions of refugees that can't go back to their country how does that make sense it's a it's a very very uh bizarre concept and I think the problem many people have is we do know the history of antiem ISM and persecution of Jews so uh people want to believe that uh the propaganda which is that this is a safe haven for Jews blah blah blah but it's not there's no that Israel make Israel makes life much more dangerous for the Jews around the world than than anything else because it's just promoting uh because because the propaganda is that all Jews are zionists and anti anti anti-is anti-Semitism and when you conflate those two and constantly conflate those two it puts Jews at risk because it makes any crime committed by the Israelis the fault of Jews around the world which of course it's not and it shouldn't be seen like that but the Israeli State that's one of their major propaganda organs in all their Lobby groups around the world they constantly anyone who's Pro Palestinian or or speaking out about Israeli human rights uh violations is an anti-site but you can only believe that if you believe that all Jews uh are zionists or all Jews are Israeli war criminals which is obviously is not the case so I think that uh this has exposed this issue on a level that is never been exposed you know um that I've never seen people uh understanding uh the history of this because we did a video the other day with a group called uh Palestine Deep dive a 5 minute video on history of Zionism it got like 1.5 million views on Instagram in two days and that is people have a thirst for knowledge now because as you say they're looking at their screens they're getting a completely warped view when they look at uh sorry they're looking at phones and seeing all this horror and they're getting a warped view when they look at their their TV and they're saying well there's a disconnect there they're thirsty for the real information so we need to provide that to them because the other the the other Rabbit Hole people can go down in that situation when they're not getting good information is is conspiracy theories and stuff like that so uh I think that alternative media like you guys us guys uh is important um and uh I wonder if you think that's a barrier to the kind of serious detail detailed truthful discussion about what's happening there because you know there are bad faith actors right who seek to weaponize anti-Semitism and seek actually to kind of turn the very serious and sincere concern about what's happening there into that more channel into a more conspiratorial anti-semitic dangerous yeah politics right yeah and it's almost in a way um a product of if you do have a political blackout if you do have broadly speaking certainly an establishment media a blackout of a diversity of opinion on this you almost create a vacuum right yes exactly good example my boss uh co-founder as well of Declassified Mark Curtis right he's a brilliant guy I think like the best popular historian in the country he single-handedly rewrote the history of uh British foreign policy post 45 he's s he's the smartest on this topic of anyone I've ever met he why he's never invited on on on the BBC or anywhere he knows way more than anyone you see on there talking about these issues and yet he's never invited on him so people are just starved of having any critical analysis of what is going on and it's very interesting actually one of the major things you see in the propaganda system here and it's also in the U it's less so in the US cuz they don't have the history of the British Empire but the British Empire here so you're allowed to go on the media here on the BBC and talk about the crimes of the British Empire in the past fine in fact it's even promoted uh and it makes liberals feel good because we're not there if you start talking about Imperial crimes now the special six Special Forces Wars cover Wars that uh that that have happened over the last 10 years so no way you can't or it's impossible to talk about um and that's quite interesting isn't it that you you're allowed to talk about historical crimes but not the ones going on now and I think that's a way that it protects power because it projects the image that all that's in the past and also it defends the current criminals because that their crimes aren't being exposed um and but yeah I definitely I think your point is is is right it does leave a massive vacuum and it's dangerous because like the world is we're at a very very very dangerous point in the world and people are confused and scared and the far right uh is the one and or the far-left or the extremes are going to be the ones that people go to and the far left's nowhere in terms of organization uh in terms of uh institutional for forms and the far right is very organized and has a much simpler message because they can just blame it on immigrants or whoever they want to blame it on uh and yeah I mean we need to step up really I mean like if you look what happened under Jeremy Corin from 2015 there was so much hope uh that there could be change and it seems that they've smashed it to Pieces but I think that we need to kind of re re regroup it or I mean personally my take is the independence movement is super super exciting because even if they don't win and I'm not saying they won't win but they're up against it right but then uh you'll have a cohort of really really inspiring people that can do something afterwards uh cuz what what's going to happen is K's going to get a landslide um and then very quickly after I think it's going to get quite interesting because people are going to be like well I've been sold this lie effectively that everything's going to be all right if we get the Tories out for for many many years and then they're going to be actually okay not much is changing and then they're going to be like okay well then that at that point something interesting is going to happen whether it's on the far right or far left or just writing or whatever it is we need to be ready uh organizationally to take advantage of the fact that people and when I say take advantage I don't mean actually like for ourselves I mean take advantage politically of the fact that people are are have an awareness of of the fact that the the two main parties are not there to represent them they're there to represent the same interests effectively um and I think the independence movement could could could do it uh lean Muhammad who is um a British Palestinian woman who's uh she's only 23 uh and she's standing in ilford North which is West streeting the shadow Health secretary SE and I went to interview her the other day just incredible um uh woman like super super politically aware um speaks very eloquently about the issues and I was just thinking there's there's a lot of people like that around that we just don't know about and they'll rise to the surface hopefully and and the independence movement is promoting some of them there's Andrew Feinstein he's not as young as leam but he's a friend of mine he's and he's a super super powerful person he was a Aid to Nelson Mandela and thecmp he's also written the most important book on armr ever written um he's a investigative journalist he's great and he's standing against K St and hban so I don't think if these people I'm not say they will lose but I'm I don't think if these people lose they just they just go away I think that there's going to be a need and people want to Rally around people when the the the nightmare that I think is going to happen with Labor uh starts I agree with that sort of analysis of what that next Parliament and sort of the term and Psych afterwards um inails and I think it it has the potential to be an inflection point I mean like so many other political moments in recent British history also has the potential to disappoint so I'm not going to get too far ahead of myself there's these Independents right some sort of um purged from the labor party Corbin fiser shahen there's other nent well I don't know how nent George Galloway is but certainly the Workers Party um is sort of looking like it's going to possibly turn up in a greater way than it has done so far with just Him winning byelections and I'm struck actually by a word you used talking about leam Muhammad eloquent because Galloway can talk you know he's an he's an oror but there are some things that he says I cannot describe them as eloquent right you know recent examples he did gave that interview to nvar D where he was talking about whether or not it's normal to no whether or not a child growing up with two Ms or two dads is normal versus a mom and a dad was you know going backwards and forwards about gay rights with Aaron um some of their candidates talking about having sort of friendly relations with Russia and I wonder your analysis of whether you view the Workers Party being part of that sort of interesting something that you would possibly support independent political movement yeah I mean I don't have I think that it's exciting I think that we have um a system where we we're made to hate people uh by by a system that's operated by people that we really should hate if that makes sense I know that's a bad way of saying that but what I'm saying is like G like Galloway okay I don't agree with everything he says definitely but he hasn't he hasn't ever killed anyone look at aliser Campbell this is a guy that we're meant to celebrate and yet he is the he is on record as as cooking intelligence to lead us to lie us into a war in Ira which killed a million people and destroyed a society of 30 million people and no one has any problem with getting him on TV or talking about him being Affiliated to the labor party why why why why why should I hate George Galloway why should I hate George Gallow why should I hate the workers party I think the workers party has different elements to it I'm not going to agree with all of them um but there's a whole industry set up to destroy those people uh and make us hate them I think that like we we need to be open-minded and and not get into this whole um battle because effectively they can destroy uh anyone you know like look at what happened during the anti-Semitism crisis with under Corbin people said some stupid stuff but also everything was weaponized so uh uh if you don't stand up against that and you start joining in and let them break you off from each other um then then you then then they can pick you off and that's exactly what they've done in labor by the way look if you look cuz everyone talks now and this is part even part of the left if I'm going to be honest like about okay well now we understand what starma is really about it's like guys two months into him being elected leader had sacked Rebecca Long Bailey as a shadow Minister for tweeting an article which was an interview with Maxim PE and independent which is maybe the most mad thing he's done the whole time and that's like super brassy stuff you know it's like and so he he signaled it straight away and he picked them off one by one and then Corbin was suspended and you know like uh and isn't this kind of an argument though for actually if you want to sort of achieve political change and you want that political movement to be successful it's almost an argument for I don't want to say removing those people from your movement but if for example you know that your political opponents are going to seek to weaponize very minor transgressions against you your candidates your party at that point you it might not be necessarily um a moral choice but a tactical Choice say we just we we can't tolerate opinions like that and I appreciate that's quite an anti-democratic position to take but if you're pragmatic about power maybe it's one that you have to adopt well it was it was what the Corbin Administration adopted if you look at what happened to Chris Williamson for example he was suspended for saying we should stop apologizing for our record on anti-Semitism right which was what which which was presented as him saying uh anti-Semitism is fine or whatever what he was saying is we should stop playing into the uh weaponization of anti-Semitism and he was suspended and then they found all sorts of things for across the boards that yes if it's presented in a certain way you know like Corbin wrote a forward to Hobson imperialism yeah and they use that they'll always find something there's always something if it's going to be weaponized and then the real anti-Semitism if it's if they're politically made people like um uh some like Rachel Reeves or someone that they it doesn't get in the papers because it's not about anti-Semitism this is the really important thing uh it's not about anti-Semitism in fact it makes anti-Semitism much much harder to fight uh because if you tar everyone with it and you weaponize it and use it to destroy opponents of Israel or opponents of uh uh labor or or the Tories then uh it makes people switch off we don't want people to switch off when they hear someone's an anti- we want them to be outraged um so I I don't I I don't think I I understand what you're saying like in terms of tactics we need to you should you should get rid of people that are vulnerable to this kind of ATT but it won't work because they'll always find something and because it's it's not real it's the Hobson thing for example was in all the major papers it was complete invention uh it was nothing to do anti-Semitism so I think what needs to happen more is just to call it out there is a whole infrastructure in this country which is set up to destroy anyone who speaks out with a pro Palestinian voice that's the reality and it's and and and and you've seen it like the board of deputies of British Jews which presents itself as a voice of British Jews but actually uh is lobbying on on Israel's behalf and that's not a conspiracy theory if you look into meetings that they have with the government they talk they're goinging in to talk about Israel and they' people within them have said we Lobby for Israel so they they have an interest in presenting anyone who is against Israel as an anti-site uh and that's the weaponization of ant anti-Semitism is is awful and and a betrayal of uh the the the the noble fight against anti-Semitism so I my my take is more we should not that we should uh um tactically remove people from the movement that might be vulnerable with it but more fight back against the people who are smearing it and present them as the promoters of anti-Semitism which they are because they make the real stuff much harder to fight mat kard thank you so much for taking the time to come in good to talk to you again the racket available from all good book stores all good book stores and bad ones Matt thank you take care

Channel: PoliticsJOE

Views: 92,273

Keywords: Politics, UK politics, British politics, Parliament, Government, Westminster, news, breaking news, conversation, politics news, politicsjoe, joe songs, boris johnson song, boris johnson speech, keir starmer song, keir starmer speech, new media, novara, rishi sunak, labour party, conservative, tory party, conservatism, brexit, israel palestine, gaza news, political news, israel gaza interview

Id: ymCaO45Zxo0

Length: 54min 54sec (3294 seconds)

Published: Sun Jun 09 2024