How strong is democracy in Europe? | Conflict Zone

you have 10 million eu citizens living under authoritarian rule we can never tolerate a sick democracies in european union we have not problems only in hungary but also in poland also in malta the insurrection in washington has focused attention on the apparent fragility of democracy in the u.s but how strong is democracy in europe my guest this week from germany is gunther crick baum an mp from angela merkel's cbu party and chair of the eu affairs committee in the federal parliament why the big gap between the eu's rhetoric about rights and rule of law and the dismal reality in parts of the [Music] union [Music] going to creek bomb welcome to conflict zone good morning when berlin took over the rotating eu presidency it set itself the task of protecting fundamental values and rights in the european union and i want to look first at whether it met that objective in any way at all according to human rights groups you have now almost 10 million eu citizens living under authoritarian rule in hungary aren't you ashamed of that well i'm not totally satisfied with uh the results uh to be very honest but anyway uh we are able to achieve the first step to connect uh financial aid from the budget of the european union to the respect of rule of law yeah but that wasn't quite my wasn't my question about hungary you have 10 million eu citizens living under authoritarian rule and you have the commission's vice president eu commissions vice president vera gerava went so far as to call hungary a sick democracy how many sick democracies can you tolerate in the european union these days we can never tolerate sick democracies in european union but you're hungry but you do no no one second please let me achieve my sentence because we have not problems only in hungary but also in poland also in malta when a journalist was killed and we had to observe that authorities did not really persuade the case so i think it is necessary to make more pressure on these states and with a budget we have really a tool now in our hand and so i'm satisfied that we did the first step but i think also it's not and will be not enough in the future but it should be normal to respect rule of law in the european union yes well they've gone a long way from what you regard as normal then this tool that you're talking about is a mechanism which germany proposed that looks as though the eu would make payments to member countries conditional on their respect for the rule of law um the problem for several countries was that it was just too soft in fact it was all hype wasn't it when you looked at the fine print of the proposal it turned out this mechanism could only be used if the rule of law if the violations of rule of law affected or seriously risked affecting the sound financial management of the eu so in other words it was all about money and that wasn't enough for a lot of countries was it i i think money is a very good tool to make pressure on states because they need the money and uh so finally it was necessary to find a compromise because i think you followed the debate how difficult it was to get a solution concerning the mutual financial framework and also the recovery fund which allows now to rebuild the economy of the concerned states due to the con corona crisis but anyway now we have not only the mechanism the combination with the financial aid of the budget but also article 7 procedure that means finally we have the the high court of the european union and it's up to them now to decide if there are violations of rule of law or not but anyway i think it is worthwhile to have now this combination uh with a with a budget but mr creeper i'm your article seven processes against poland and hungary have gone absolutely nowhere and then it looks as though uh none of this is going to result in any sustained action whatsoever and this latest mechanism also ended in failure because both hungary and poland announced that if you went ahead with it and and they would veto the latest stimulus package straight unashamed blackmail wasn't it and you gave into it no i i don't share this opinion because um hungary did always respect the decisions of the high card and this is also for me personally the red line the red line means to respect the decisions of the high court so that's decisive and uh hungary did in the past and i think they will also do in the future there we have more problems with poland and uh so my uh i ask uh opponent also to respect these decisions and now we have once again this mechanism to respect rule of law otherwise we can block the money and this is one consequence one impact which will be filled by the concerned states i have to take issue with you when you say that uh you know this mechanism survived intact what what you did was in fact climb down berlin brokered a deal that will have the effect of delaying for months even years the use of this procedure and then only after the european court of justice has ruled on it and hungary and poland have had the chance to challenge it who knows how long that's going to take so this has been kicked indefinitely into the future in other words nothing will happen will it uh i don't think so because the decision which will be taken by the european court will also have an impact from the very beginning and not only for the future it means when the decision will be taken by the european court so this was a a very important point for the netherlands and so once again i'm um i'm really glad that we have now this combination uh between the budget and a respect of rule of law which was not the case in the past let's see how well it works it said a precedent that you will climb down you will climb down every time there is a challenge and every time states say we're going to blackmail you and hold up your stimulus package or your budget i think it was now right to do one step in the right direction uh but it's um it's it's a trip uh normally i think um it should be very clear a state which joins european union should respect the rule of law so that's also the reason why the article 7 procedure is only regulated with a few sentences in the treaty take also brexit um a brexit is on the basis it was done on the basis of article 15. but look on article 15 article 15 there are only a few sentences why because we thought it will never happen that one state will leave european union that's the explanation why these rules are very poor if you want in the treaty so it was our duty it was our challenge now to develop mechanisms for things which are normally a self-understanding and when i say normally self-understanding i get a problem in arguing to the to the candidate states so these states who want to join european union because i tell them well if you want to join european union you have to respect democracy you have to respect rule of law and et cetera et cetera so but also they have to respect the rule of law one eu official said after this latest you call it compromise i call it climb down said the rule of law mechanism is like the stability pact for the east it will never be enforced and will only create political resentment on all sides that's the view of some people within the eu and if this mechanism does re-emerge that's their opinion and they have the right of this opinion for this opinion but it's based on what happened isn't it the opinions based on what happened they're just looking at what happened i'm really astonished that they judge about a mechanism which now starts to work we have now to observe how it works uh but uh i i think that's really funny uh to uh to condemn a mechanism which was born now and let's observe now uh how it works and nobody can really tell that it will not work and i don't think so it will work let's see in the future and if it will not be the case then i'm really sure there will be the pressure uh to uh to achieve it in the right sense so i'm satisfied once again that we got this mechanism that we did this step and now let's observe how it works well i would say then that you're easily satisfied mr creek bam because human rights organizations for instance human rights watch are far from satisfied they said last month the last weeks have shown that leaders who violate human rights have no shame in bullying and blackmailing the whole european union to shield themselves from any consequences for their actions you set a dangerous precedent here when you allow this to take place i don't want to interrupt you but we have to be very carefully we are speaking about member states of the european union and everybody knows how important it is to respect rule of law and so but we are not talking about a state uh from another corner in in the world with a doubtful regime with a doubtful governance and so on so no but you are talking you are talking about european union states that disrespect the ruling we have to make a difference we are not speaking about a a state of central africa etc where human rights are violated every day let me just make a point here let me just let me just make a point here about european union that's not all perfect because it's not all perfect then we have um also to react the reaction was done and i think it was part of a very successful german presidency because it was not only the mechanism of rule of law it was also to come to a result in the negotiations uh about the finances of future violence mr creek well let me let me just raise an issue here you say you're not talking about african states you're talking about members of the european union you're talking about in the case of hungary at least a leader who effectively gave himself absolute power under cover of the pandemic who's been politicizing the courts who's decimated independent media who's been chipping away at academic freedom these are not things they signed up to do when they joined the european union so unless there are mechanisms and so far no mechanisms have persuaded the leadership in hungary to change their course of policy things aren't going to change and to go back to my original question at the top of the interview what have you managed to do to ensure rights for those 10 million hungarians who live according to the human rights organizations under authoritarian rule in the middle of the european union you seem to find that acceptable they don't well once again i think it is worthwhile to make a difference also in hungary we have a government first which is elected by the democratic procedure but i always criticized when we have not fair conditions for the medias that's the point it is not the case that nobody can tell is free opinion uh so that's my point where i say it's necessary to make a difference and once again we i want to have fair conditions for the medias i want uh that each media can present itself on an economic basis which is sure and which will not be violated by state so but i think it is not uh only black and only white so we have also differences and uh that's i think that the point when um we are the opinion when the european commission is the opinion that the treaties are uh violated then it's the duty of the uh commission uh to ask for a decision of the european card and this was also done and hungary respected the decision of the european call mr creeper you talk about the european commission deciding whether a state is in line with its rule of law values or not look at bulgaria 14 years in the european union it's still getting away with some of the worst practices of the communist era even though it's been under special monitoring by the eu how does that happen well first i don't share the opinion that it is worse than in the communist time i don't i don't share it really not in communist time uh people suffered under the jack on the the communist regime under the communist area it was uh violating human rights every day uh we had no democracy no rule of law we had nothing what i criticized in the case of bulgaria is the system of a rule of law concerning to condemn the cases of corruption we have cases which take 10 12 years in the court it's too long it's inacceptable uh unacceptable a long time so there it has also something to do with a rule of law uh that's uh one point which i criticized uh very very look mr mr creek bound you have massive government corruption this according to independent ngos you have mafia capture you have democratic backsliding a politically manipulated and almost dysfunctional justice system is that good so far what how is that in any way in line to any degree with the pledges that bulgaria made 14 years ago and yet in 2019 a spokesman for the eu commission reported that bulgaria had made sufficient progress to meet its commitments at accession to the eu that cannot be right can it so why this blind eye being turned towards bulgaria i visited bulgaria often and bulgaria is today integrated in the european union and also in the procedures of european union that makes a difference mr creekbound the ngos and various gather governments seem to have seen more problems in bulgaria than the eu commission the 2019 human rights report from the u.s state department said officials in all branches of government in bulgaria reportedly engaged in corrupt practices with impunity bribery conflict of interest elaborate embezzlement schemes on top of that you have from the un committee against torture a finding that mental institutions are forcibly administering intrusive and irreversible psychiatric treatment on their patients and that torture has become commonplace in that country how do those values fit in with the modern eu idea of what countries should be doing of what they said they'd live up to and haven't no that's totally right that it is not acceptable that we have um circumstances like the mentioned ones but let me say it's perhaps not a complete picture of bulgaria because sure things have to be developed in the right direction but also other points had to be achieved in the past and we're done um bulgaria today cannot be compared with the times 20 30 40 years ago so all these countries have to be developed and they have they are developing and so for this purpose we have the european commission which is observing these developments and uh sure that uh there is also a lot of pressure from the european commission to these states but also from the other member states and independent uh foundations which we have also in bulgaria like uh conrad foundation foundation uh but also a lot of ngos they show another picture but also they created they criticize a lot of points um especially in the fight against corruption their the engagement has been stronger of the government and if the government is not able to to make efforts and especially progresses then it has to show consequences by the european union yeah but there never are any consequences bulgaria has had 14 years in the european union and it is still torturing people on a regular basis so clearly whatever measures the eu is applying aren't having the desired effect are they i think that's not the right um that's not the right picture because people can live free in bulgaria and we have a democracy and all this is the case but what i'm asking for is a more engaged fight against corruption and this cannot be tolerated because corruption is violating the poorest of the poorest people why because they cannot join this doubtful competition to pay for uh things which should be normal um and it starts it's not only has not only to do with authorities in a state but uh it starts also in daily life in hospitals in schools when um when students want to get a better uh better results so we have um this daily corruption let me say but on the other hand the high level corruption um until it will be uh we will have a result in um in the fight of the state corruption which cannot be tolerated we have to do more in the fight against the high level corruption and this includes that procedures in front of the court have to show results after a few years but not after 10 years that's my point so this has to be shorter and more consequent well you're you're remarkably complacent about it the eu commission is remarkably complacent about things like torture mafia capture and uh the manip political manipulation of the justice system um let me turn to another subject for the time we have left perhaps it's worth the eu taking a good hard look at what's going on in america at the moment this is the unfolding story of a populist president staging an insurrection to try and prevent him being ousted in a free and fair election how long before some of that starts to happen in the eu and is the eu concerned that this in washington should be a wake-up call that it should listen to well uh first uh remark uh we are really looking forward now um to the presidency of mr biden because uh that's not what i asked that's not what i asked that's necessary to be mentioned because i think the dialogue between the united states and europe is indispensable and so also the respect of rule of law democracy is indispensable like in america like in europe and so i share one point that uh in former times it was self-understanding that and it was common sense that democracies are self-understanding and are strong and we have to observe today that democracies are coming more and more under pressure worldwide and as we had to observe it uh now by donald trump but not only by donald trump so uh we have also to fight uh for our values we have to fight for democracy we have to fight for rule of law once again in former times it was really self-understanding today it is not because this will be decisive about the question how we will live in 10 or in 20 years finally mr creek brown let's come back to germany there's a general election in september angela merkel is retiring and in a few days the cdu your party will elect a new leader while none of the candidates uh to date seem to be generating much enthusiasm your most popular politician health minister yen span isn't even on the ballot don't you want to win elections sure i'm very optimistic because we have three candidates which are very motivated and i'm i don't share your your uh introductional remark they are very popular in in germany and sure it will not be easy when angela merkel will leave um because she was now chancellor for a very long period of time since 2005 and so that's also quite uh normal uh that um everybody will has its own style uh but it's an open race and uh for me it's very difficult to predict who will uh who will advance one of the candidates friedrich matz has said that immigrants are to blame for rising welfare costs and unemployment in germany do you really want your party to go down that road putting immigrants in the firing line just to woo a few far-right voters from the afd hasn't there been enough resentment and hatred directed at uh immigrants over the years that's not not right when you want to mention frederick meltz it should be the right sentences and uh so this is this he met he did not say but uh what he said is now concerning the refugees in bosnia which are at the moment here in bosnia and out of arena that it should not be the case that germany will go once again in front because now it's also in the responsibility of other european states to take care on them otherwise we'll create a pull effect uh so which we could observe in 2015 and 2016 and this should not be repeated once again so uh i think um we have also areas like in syria for example in the northern part which are stable and so it cannot be the solution that um each refugee can come to european union or in these states we need a solution we need a solution um a european one because i i think once again all these states assign the declaration for the geneva the geneva declaration for to protect refugees but anyway germany did a lot in the past and this can be done done done one time but not each time gunther creek bomb unfortunately we've run out of time we have to leave it there thanks very much for being on conflict zone you're welcome thank you very much [Music] [Applause] [Music] you

Channel: DW News

Views: 20,057

Keywords: EU, European Union, rule of law, democracy, Hungary, Viktor Orban, Poland, PiS, Law and Justice party, Article 7, Angela Merkel, Gunther Krichbaum, eu democracy, europe democracy, krichbaum interview, tim sebastian, conflict zone

Id: mND0I85B9Hg

Length: 26min 7sec (1567 seconds)

Published: Thu Jan 14 2021

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Ha valakit érdekel, hogy az EU-ban hogyan próbálják bagatellizálni az itthoni helyzetet, re: tavalyi jogállami komédia.

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