Ahern on Brexit: Tories 'upped the ante' over future of Good Friday deal | DW English

20 years ago the Good Friday Agreement paved the way for an end to decades of bitter conflict in Northern Ireland but the results have been mixed my guest this week here in Dublin is Bertie Ahern former Irish prime minister and one of the co signatories of the agreement in 1998 just how fragile is the peace process now and what would it take to get it back on track [Music] Bertie Ahern welcome to conflict zone thank you very much in November 1998 you told a meeting of your party in a file that you believe the United island was irresistible you spoke way too soon didn't you well I did I say that in November 1998 by the moment yeah well I I think we I still believe united Ireland is it'll happen but I'm irresistible would be certainly too strong a word to be to be using I think united Ireland could happen over a long period it certainly can't Sam it's certainly not something that's going to happen in the short or medium term in my view and I don't even agree with people who believe that we should use they the clause in the agreements to have a border pole in the short term because it would be divisive won't be helpful you said it was a dangerous game last April you said anybody wants to play that's a dangerous game that's I certainly said that and I still and that would apply to the Irish government at the moment would it apply to anybody I think to push a border poll in the short term and it's not the result because I think I know what the result would be we reject it but if it would be the antagonism and animosities that the campaign would generate and everything around that what settings back and when we're trying to get things to work so I think it definitely is not the thing so why is the Irish government pushing it and the Nationalists are pushing it well they want to exploit the the weakness of the power sharing agreement which collapsed over a year ago ya know exploit the the uncertainties and the political drift that's going on at the moment well in champaign are pushing it and their line is that they will do it in a five-year period that started our latest line and but I have to correct you the Irish government are not doing it the guard Irish government are not pushing it in 2016 you had the Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny saying to the EU get ready for a united Ireland what was that if it wasn't massively provocative well I he if he said that his stated position is that it's a long-term project I mean he certainly both both ended that's like saying the unionist yeah I have to say if if we put it that way it's not what his normal position it's his normal position he's not of my side but I'd have to defend him I think both Leo broad care and and the Kenny had said that they believe the United aren't is a long-term project the foreign minister got into some difficulties recently when he said it would happen in his lifetime but in furs to him he switched the DUP condemned as megaphone diplomacy and he's 46 you know so with the normal life cycle II thought that could be a yeah but why come out with these things I think needlessly provocative I think the reason is that that's you know people like you ask them the questions and they ask them two questions are they in favor of united Ireland are they not and what if if you if you say if you say I'm not in favor of the united Ireland and I never want to see you in either Ireland that causes em huge disappointment for nationís so I think em III don't criticize politicians for saying that they believe the aspiration is for united Ireland I think all of us would like to see that but I do not think I'd have to defend at the present I don't think that in present government who is taking the view that they think we should have a short-term border poll and a short term United you had Leo vodka the current Irish Prime Minister saying he understood that certain statements said by the nationalists have been seen as disrespectful intrusive or interfering as he put this was not our intention he said we have no hidden agenda have you ever met a politician Bertie Ahern who didn't have enough too many well I think they you know in in the circumstances of Northern Ireland we're without the institution's for 15 months and I think they the primary issue for us to do now is in a cool and a camp edit position to try and get the institution's back up and running I think that's what both governments should be doing I think it's what all the party should be doing and I think a cool attitude like Shin fane's where you get the kind of rhetoric from Gerry Adams the form of champagne leader saying I believe the British government has no right to be in Ireland never had any right to be in Ireland and never will have any right to be in Ireland that's going back to the battle it is it is what what what happens is I was on a TV programme to go today and with some of the extreme unionists and and they would almost question the rice of of Gerry Adams to be in Northern Ireland so I'm afraid that it doesn't help on either side it and that kind of language doesn't happen either side but Infernus you have to do a lot of cool headed people in both the unionist the nationís and this week we've had the loyalists issue in a very positive statement trying to move away from violence trying to move or not a move away from violence but move away from criminality and the Ulster freedom fighters your defense Association the red hand commanders so there are people on all sides trying hard to to build peace build relationship but words matter or what work and what works more than some some and I don't think you'd argue with some opportunistically using brexit to try and unpick the Union nothing well you get the latent attempt to do just that though there are there are you're certainly right in that there are British politicians and Tory British politicians who have opted the ante and big-time like Owen Paterson and others talking about the people who are causing the problems and what there there have been very very unhelpful in trying to say that they go friday agreement is not meaningful anymore that it is not useful that it is creating difficulties and that if it wasn't there we'd have an easier break but it's not just the Tory politicians david trimble the four master unity that we did it's mainly the Tory politicians and it is then responded to I think you have to understand this it's their British Tory presentations British Tory politicians on day David asked the eunice said the one thing that would provoke loyalist paramilitary is the present Irish government saying silly things about the border and the constitutional issue and David trim is a good friend of mine but who is he he's a member of the Tory party he left the Ulster Unionist Party and joined the Tory party so an afraid you've made my case does that neutral okay just because these are towards is that deny the right of his statement no he doesn't but does it make it wrong but I'm just quoting back and afraid and afraid you walked into a sorry walked into it you said that there are other politicians but very politician you quoted there was an Ulster Unionist politician I am saying but I am saying if you were if you want an argument I give it to you and I win so I I just want to tell you that what we need is Kam good headed politicians and to try to make the Good Friday Agreement work and what I'm saying to you is that Tory politicians who are using breakfast because you ask the question are creating the difficulty those of us I'm not politician any longer but those of us who are trying to keep things calm and keeps him sane are saying to them that is the wrong thing to do we must work together to get his solution that makes the brexit work if that's what the British want and that's what they vote over and we I accept that but Iran isn't cool and and and clever to keep Hawking on about the fact that 56 percent of Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU and if they would only unite with Ireland their membership of the EU would be assured is it cool and clever to keep on with this delight at the EU Parliament's vote last year to give Northern Ireland special EU status this is sheer hypocrisy Familia from the Irish government doesn't but I'm sorry I'm sorry and the the British Parliament did not folk last year to give special you poo Parliament are not the negotiator says you know and adulation without a Tod we went it like what we're delighted with is that the European ago she aters are saying that and the border in Ireland would be a huge disadvantage so we're delighted us which everybody has said haven't been the Tories have said that government has said that the EU has said the Irish government has said it so so why make brexit into this disaster it doesn't have to be dunno if Brett if if Britain and others seem to delight in warning that this is politics taken delight at all I mean III I'm just worried for the British people I think if the British people stay in the customs union it solves the British problem there's lots of salty hours problem I can't understand why the British public would want to and support the customs union I think people like Ken Clark and a former you know foreign leader of the of the authorities of that they have made sensible issues that sustained across viewing is the right thing to do and and I think in the end it won't be called the customs union I think Theresa May will probably try him maneuver a party to stay in the clothes from Union as well or somewhere near but you seem to blow hot and cold on this issue because one moment you say take to resume at her word you told the Irish Times last November she's confidently said she doesn't want a physical border the you don't want a physical border Irish government don't and then you say in a recent interview got to play hardball with the Brits know what different thing I like no I'll explain to you why Theresa May said on the 15th of December that she was quite happy to have a backstop and that would and make sure there was no border and less than three months later she said that no British Prime Minister could agree a backstop that she agreed 10 to 15 to December so am I meant to praise somebody for taking a different position in ten weeks if Theresa May is consistent I would be our first supporter but the British ambassador in Washington last month saying the UK remain committed to protecting north-south cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border he said that last month yeah well I mean let's see if they stick to that but if they stick to a consistent position what what we do in Ireland and I think you understand the better than most we've had eight hundred years of British Miss rule and we don't trust them very well and we never did and we got the Good Friday Agreement which we want to implement and so when the British government say something we like to see it done and we don't go around trusting them and after 800 years very easy so what happened to all this fine talk over the last couple of weeks about the trust surrounding the Good Friday Agreement and all the north-south institutional bodies and all this you're saying there's no trust there well we don't have the institutions up and running you know in the great 20 years we don't the way fully don't have now and that's and that's why we raised so all the mistrust is back no and not all the mistrust is back but we have we have a hundred years of misrule 800 years of bad misrule priorities and I get my branch outside of Ireland to get the Brits out of Ireland every bank that directedness it's all I mean what you need to do spend some more time in Ireland you might understand this because you seem badly informed if you don't mind me saying but no we work very closely with the British government but we don't love the consistency of the British government I mean we we to see and brexit Duff works for us and if it works for Britain as well that's fine we want to see north-south buddies that work well we want to see the east-west relationship to work well and I think it's a pity that we will lose the contact we presently have with British politicians after the 29th of March next and we've had very good relationships with British politicians for 45 years in Europe when Britain leaves the yeah but that ends unfortunately when when they leave the EU we won't have that regular contact of every week and every month of meeting them now I think if we get the institution's back up and running again we can use the intergovernmental conference of the Good Friday Agreement to actually do that and I think there's a solution in the Good Friday Agreement and to deal with and he d UK be noted EU and I think that will work for both of us but you heard looking back over the Good Friday process the problem has been more reconciliation than peace hasn't it although we'll come on to peace in a minute but a lack of political will man the politicians to make reconciliation work I'm thinking of Education out of more than 1,100 schools in Northern Ireland just 65 are integrated yes it's a very because it's a very small proportion very very very small proportion there wasn't be in the will on either side and I I think to reconcile it day with some communities and they have made enormous progress in other areas very little progress integrated education is certainly one of those problems there's no doubt about that and you have to blame the politicians who were put into power by the Good Friday and no it's a politicians don't decide what schools children go to parents decide what schools children they can either push integration when they Infernus a lot of politicians are trying to do that but a parents decide to follow their denominational grounds and you know politicians can't force them but in that whole last month commissioned by the integrated education fund people blamed political leaders for doing little or nothing to bring about integrated education nearly 80% they wanted cross community merges of schools but they blamed politicians and incidentally the churches as well for holding up the process yeah but but you know it's not my job tighter defend politicians in the North or the churches both if people if people want to to force your people into integrated education like if I take this example if I was to force the large Muslim population now in Dublin to join up with integration education what would you and others be saying to that and you know so we can't just force but you're working with a particular history and you can't force and and it's because of that history and I would like to see more integrated education I think would certainly help what had future generations and but you can't force parents to pull away from what they they like and what their comfortable ways you can promote it my point is that no I think there is been promoting it look at look at housing look at social housing for instance 90 percent of social housing estates are still single identity single religion but but in fairness to the politicians on all sides they are trying her to do that that they are and I do get the peace walls the so-called peace walls down the barriers in Catholic communities they're third more of them than there were time the good friday and they're effectively open and people are moving cross by back and fall without too much difficulty I think the politicians in the north would would certainly improve the situation if they were working together in the institutions to promote more reconciliation there's no doubt about that there's no doubt about that but they it can only be done in the context of Northern Ireland and its history and the division and the divided society it can only be done slowly and in the meantime I think we have to very much support and promote the kind of peace programs and cross border cross community programs that are there and there are many politicians in the north working very hard with communities and I have been in the Shankill where I've and the Falls where I've seen Catholic kids played the lamb bagged Rome I've seen Protestant kids play the fiddle I've seen them trying to promote Harling so there are lots of people you know trying trying to do this thing I think they consider doing it fast enough no are they concerned enough about the violence because if you look at the 10 years - April 2016 there were 1,100 bombings and shootings almost 800 so-called punishment attacks and 4,000 people who were pushed out of their homes in Northern Ireland when in the 10 years - April 2016 no no - these are figures compiled from Belfast detailed data website wasn't heard from police prison court records have hardly been a bombing there's hardly been a bombing in Northern Ireland since the Omagh bombing last year according to the Police Service of Northern Ireland there were a hundred and one shootings and beatings up from just 60 for four years but most of those have not been political there's been more people I give you one thing and you're not concerned about this no I'll tell you there's or has been a feud between two gangs in Dublin in the last three years more people have been killed in that than in Northern Ireland in the last 15 years there the figures and the bombing campaign in Northern Ireland OMA was last significant bombing or very there's very very little political shootings in Northern Ireland and in the lower third is still criminality but unafraid the criminality is what happens in every city criminality will not end on the political solution but as far as political violence in Northern Ireland there's little or none or husband husband Italy and the shootings and beatings are okay other lourdes shootings and beatings are happening everywhere and we shooting them I was watching the television the other day and the crisis the huge crisis in London particularly there's less crime in Northern Ireland that underlays practic practically complacent about no I'm not the table and I have to say your your figures are from cloud cuckoo-land well these are figures as I said how fast detail detail data webs near the must been late at night when they gave them but I mean there's little or no shootings in Northern Ireland and little or no but there is criminal activity criminal activity and which which were always worried about we have that in this city here where we were unisys and there's been about ten borders in the line in the last two years around just around this area and what is nothing to do political violence it's to do with criminals and drugs but in the years since the Good Friday Agreement your own fortunes have been mixed in 2012 you resigned from your party after a public inquiry said you've lied about the source of substantial sums of money that you'd received you said you'd gone clear your name did you clear yes I did I'm quite happy I cleared my name because the tribunal never reversed its decision no I made a tribunal the tribunal gave its views and a tribunal gave it's truthful no they gave its views and I gave my evidence and I gave my evidence and I was very happy with my evidence and I was very happy with the situation that that I gave and a tribunal is over as reported you understand why they thought yeah I knew like I do i dint Det I dealt with that issue and I'm not saying any more about that issue I dealt with it comprehend finance minister with that I think I have dealt with all those issues comprehensively I'm not dealing with them again you're somebody who wants to come back maybe as president these are issues I debate for another day that'd be for another day for a senior politician who was always to avoid not only impropriety but the appearance I've given him I've given my total views in that issue and I'm not going to add to them let me talk about the crash the economic crash yes the tribunal verdict on you can I just for you and I just explained for a minister to you why you don't want to talk about no I want to tell you I agree to meet you in the Good Friday Agreement we've done that so we're finished thank you very much all right with that mr. Aherne cut short the interview and left the room conflict zone is a difficult program for politicians it isn't meant after all to be easy we had no intention of offending him this was billed as an interview about the Good Friday Agreement but we did also offer his office a list of topics that we were going to cover but they didn't come back to us we hope mr. Ahern will come back to us someday and finish the interview and we wish him well for the future [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Channel: DW News

Views: 58,092

Keywords: Bertie Ahern, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Good Friday Agreement, Brexit, Conflict Zone, #dwZone, Tim Sebastian, DW, Deutsche Welle, Ahern, Ahern Ireland, Ireland Brexit, DW News, DW English, Good Friday

Id: DT425XpwuWw

Length: 23min 55sec (1435 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 18 2018