How Reebok Pumps Took Over the World, With Inventor Paul Litchfield | The Complex Sneakers Show

so there was someone's job that at the end of the line was just to pump up the shoes see this is Matt Matt's on to something here yeah this guy his SP ex but the wheel it's the hamster on the wheels my boy over here yeah just laying in the cup ready yes good pickup [Music] what's up everybody it's jool Luma you were listening you were watching the complex sneaker show as always I'm joined by my two co-host my two friends to my right Mr Matt Welty feels like it's been forever it has we're back though to my left my brother in varsity jacket Mr Brendan d [Music] a little bit of for you I'm doing all right how we doing we're back I'm feeling good yeah just one week off but we're here we're back we're B we are B you like that yeah I know little tease little tease for the episode yes yes got a really good show today great guest yep going to talk about designing and the innovation of an I know that you guys don't like I feel like you guys have side conversations when I say iconic sneaker no this is an iconic sneaker the rebok pump pafi is here what else have we got I want to discuss some upcoming Air Jordans okay Air Jordan 5 metallic Air Jordan 3 Nina Chanel abne collab what about the flu game Air Jordan 12's yeah you had something about like a little internal kind manufactur some controversy exactly also also LeBron vote back sneakers this needs to be addressed still it what's cracking since we've been gone the the tectonic plates are cracking the Earth is Shifting I was out of to for the earthquake did y'all experience the earthquake I was in LA uh I I didn't experience it at all you thought you just dropped a dum Bell at the box I literally just I L I didn't I I didn't you didn't feel it no is that cause for concern maybe I don't know did your building did anyone hit you up like hey do you have a earthquake safety guide for your building nope sorry is the building up to code I have no idea oh wow probably not okay important questions I was actually nervous about it because I thought maybe my shoes were going to fall over I have an office with a lot of sneakers stacked High precariously placed and I was worried that the magnitude of it would have shifted them and caused them to cuz sometimes if I move my chair the wrong way in my tight little office at home the shoes will fall over is it 4.8 doing that though I mean I don't know I wasn't here to experience it but I feel like it could have but they were safe thank goodness something something sneak related I want to get your guys opinion on please uh I guess it's rumored that or people are saying that the flu game Air Jordan 12 is coming back right and our social guy friend of the friend of the program Ben Felder SC said that that he hopes that the flu game Shu coming back would have been the 2009 version with the Suede and the sick face on the tongue I don't think we need that I think if the flu game is coming back make it as OG as possible I agree Joe what do you think no thoughts on that whatsoever do you guys like that version though I don't even like I like the regular one but was that a big thing back then I don't think so yeah you mean a big thing that it was changed yeah was that like a big thing like it I don't even I this is like one of the first times I'm like ing about it no that Ben prefers that or like that was even that that it was even a discussion yeah no he had sent out a a tweet from the complex sneakers account saying oh I hope that like this is it's like in my mind I hope that this is the version that comes back I know it's not going to happen but I was wondering if you guys like that version at all because there was a little bit discussion around no I don't think we need that and um I think those little idiosyncratic versions of Jordan retros that pertain to specific years that had little tweaks on them I don't think the retros that come out in successive years should refer back to those whether you like the shoe or not you think it's cool as just almost like a time capsule where like there was this one version that was like that and just leave it at that then rather than trying to repeat yeah yeah I would think so the return in the flu game Air Jordan 12 should be based on the original not on the 2009 random one it's it's like if the fire red Air Jordan 4 came back and you had the Mars Blackman stamp on it again we don't need more versions of the mar I did like that vers I know I don't think you like that one right Mars black I like the Mars Blackman I like that version too to but anytime you bring up that shoe you hear the same exact thing the quality was terrible yeah I think that whole era of Jordan Retros in general was just yeah I mean retro shoes in general in that maybe but that one specifically like everyone I talk to people who have it because there was a time where I wanted that shoe for a while you wanted a white Air Jordan before yeah I did I wanted with the with the Mars on it 20 years ago and every time it was like man they like cre you maybe feel so old by saying that that Sho released almost 20 years ago yeah it's crazy I don't think in that era that Brands really paid as much attention to the art of retro as they do now where they're like hey we need this premium material we need to look at the OG specs back then it was kind of like kind of looks like the shoe yeah and the complaints weren't loud enough yet and widespread enough to really demand that Jordan BR do things like remastering or Nike bring back an original Air Max one with the 86 big bubble that thing didn't really emerge until the 2010s as far as I can remember I mean The Flu Game 12 to me in the OG is just such like a beautiful Sho the original like like pristine to me yes speaking of bringing shoes back I have to mention this I saw this on Twitter a few weeks back and and I've neglected to reference it on the show until now but the guy Karate kicks 23 on Twitter I saw this he mentioned that Joe's doing his best karate kid yeah they used to say I look like the karate kid growing up a little laruso yeah crane kick no Jaden Smith not Jaden Smith Daniel laruso AKA Ralph machio people used to say I look like him a little bit come on you could see the resemblance right uh we'll put a photo up in the video version of the podcast is that your best when I was younger not in this huskys ge but you can see it Joe shout out the Huskies right we're gonna get to that you you think let him cook and then listen I'm going to cook go ahead we always want to hold the sneaker Brands accountable and this is a good moment to again Karate kicks 23 on Twitter mention in response to a Mr unloved one's tweet he was referencing that it's been 3 years since the Nike LeBron vote back program happened on sneakers and and the Nike LeBron 10 ring ceremony PE was the one that won well I think yeah get him started up about it oh my goodness it's not it's not even he had the Arthur meme I remember that V's popping out being upset just there was like a bunch of issues in general just I know you you say things are subjective with all of those things voting is voting but I think that at the time or I think maybe even still to this day Nike really valued people's time in the sneakers app you know where it's like how much you engage with stuff would boost your chances to win seemingly they never said that out right but so I think a lot of people if they just saw something they're like hey I need to engage with this to to you're right that was big era on the sneakers app where you would click everything and watch every video and tap every icon you could because you thought maybe it would help you get a slightly better felt like Nike was using these voting things to try to like Crown a champion through the sneakers app where it felt like in reality it was mostly people just opening it and just boom boom boom boom boom trying to get through it as fast as they could because when you looked at a lot of those brackets and it's not that like the shoe you like didn't win it was just like these massive landslides of like this is the shoe that is pretty much unanimously like the more popular sneaker over time versus some random shoe I think they did like an Air Force One voting program on like that and you're just like wait some of those decisions by the sneakers voting Community were heinous yeah they didn't make sense so it was like a LeBron 10 ends up winning which is like a shoe that I don't think they really had a lot of plans to Retro and they're probably just like oh crap this wasn't what we thought was going to happen I remember you didn't like that at all it was just I think a lot of that stuff was just uh it was just disappointing if you're trying to like do a public like vote of record about which shoe is uh the best and then it's just people are using it just to game their yeah but you don't know why people actually it that way don't you don't but if it's things just come out so wonky you have to wonder yeah it just makes you like hey why are we even what we going to use this as you you weren't mad you were disappointed right yeah just okay but the real thing to be disappointed in is that that vote back thing for the Nike LeBron Series where the Nike LeBron 10 ring ceremony was crowned the champion and was the shoe that Nike was going to bring back quote at a later date it's been three years this was January 2021 there's no sign of the Sho I don't think it's ever coming back you think Nike's just totally abandoned that yeah totally well we haven't forgotten Nike you owe us that sneaker some other sneakers from that bracket have been released since like you can't just just say at a later date just just any point in the future also there was the I think we talked about on here as well the cojp um bracket that they had and the shoe that ended up winning wasn't even a cojp I don't remember that shoe they did it was like the best cojp shoe sneaker of all time and it was that like un Tiffany dunk that has like the fake uh fluorescent Croc skin on it that like was a journey shoe they had it they had it win the cojb bracket well listen anyways are you done I'm done listen talking about a lot of brackets okay those brackets are over you know what else is over you know what else is over March Madness is over the huskys back to back you see it see your Alma mat yeah my alma mater I got to the first game in bark with Jack Irwin this year yeah they didn't give you a peral treatment to the finals they asked if I wanted to go they asked if I wanted to go I was filming I was filming huskys went back to back you see the jacket got it off eBay this year vintage 9s starters buty buttery it came from the Ukraine good took six months but we're here I know the feeling my brother bought me what does the left sleep I can't see Christmas gift from Ukraine and it took many months to arrive get a closeup baby get a closeup I know the mic good thing we have two mics cuz I just just pushed the mic out of the way they could see the the huskys Pats on the AR there we go also if you know you know coach Luke Murray one's on that's what we call them in stores we call these the coach Luke Murray ones you don't know anything about it I do or should they just know if they know if you know you know okay I saw I saw a meme lately where a recently where someone had on like three different sports teams and they said this is the parlay fit is that me yeah you got the Yankees hat Barcelona sneakers literally three different teams Barcelona Yukon and the Yanke sport athlete really multiport athlete Joon Bol lauma exactly JP NOS I am excited though that uh Jersey City's finest there we go Dan Hurley shared interest yes uh uh friend friend of a program former cooworker of ours uh Warren Cochran who works at Jordan Brandon yes now he had said that uh Dan Hurley was yelling I think at Zack Ed or something he was going to put that Journal Square on him which is the neighborhood where I'm at and I that made me smile as long as there was a smile on your face I'm happy back to back shouts to stores shouts to everyone Yukon Huskies I wish I had something I could celebrate in this you guys both have a connection trying to think strong about it let me think let me think if there's anything related to the champion no I don't I don't think so more sneaker stuff though one shoe that I'm curious about whether it's a big jlp shoe or not has a chance to be Al Air Jordan 3s I like it the black pair I like it a medium jlp shoe okay is that the new rating system Yeah medium let me say that they don't feel that special because we've seen so much amam manier Air Jordan work so much social status Air Jordan work the collaborations keep coming we spoke about this at the end of the last year how they have so many sneakers on the way and I think it's okay that they don't feel that special anymore and this shoe does not make drastic changes to the black cement Air Jordan 3 but still think it looks clean and I think that Amma maner have found their Lane and and have found their aesthetic when it comes to Air Jordan Retros and this is a great execution of it I think it's hard to mess up a black Air Jordan 3 with Nike Air on the back I disagree talk about I disagree because it's a you're going against iconic ones in the line so I think that you're going to be judged on I still checks still checks enough boxes to get people to go out and purchase it people will go out and purchase I like the fives I've been saying that the black still trying add those to your I really like those fives wait fives and threes there's a few more that I want to talk about yeah okay I I don't know if I was done with my thought but I think it still not still not done I think it was an iconic iconic leaked photo that was probably one of the worst potato the shoe literally like yes it looked like a potato yeah but I I will always defend Joe I know you still have to finish your thought I will always defend League photos because I do believe in showing people the sneakers early on and also I believe that people should have a diverse view of the sneakers not just the cleanest best possible presentation of it from the people who made it I think you should also see what it looks like with a bad camera or with a medium camera but an early leak to you is infinitely better than what we talked about those mockups yes yeah um yeah not I don't know infinitely better but yes I I'll take the leak finishing my thought no sorry no pisss okay I'm in near five is uh sometimes I talk about when I'm filming the show sneaker shopping you just see on the wall like these are really good those I'm in year fivs the black ones are one that I'm always like man they did a really good job it's a shoe you see on the shelf and he's like I might have to purchase these you know you brought up you brought up recently the OG Jordan Fives black and metallic did I did I Manifest this Joe Black and metallic those came up did I Manifest this manifest what it looks like the Black Metallic Air Jordan 5 is coming back as a retro next year that's the rumor and days before that was announced you heard me say to you think I need a new pair of black metallic fives did you not you did say that then two things on that one there's an upcoming episode of sneaker shopping where super producer Dave Matthews gets shouted out by the talent wow for his black met metallic fives what a moment also Dave Matthews this mother shows up last week to a shoot uhuh do we have photos of this that we can put in the episode yes we have photos turn the video on first of all eight days before he shows up to this shoot in La that I just did he gets complimented on the Black Metallic Jordan Fives huge look stop the production who you'll see it you'll see it soon you left it in the episode yeah we left it in eight later we shoot again M he shows up Atlanta Air Max 95s oh he's cooking air and doesn't even say anything on the slide has his little clipboard with the pocket protector with the set shot list everything I look down he's wearing the Atlanta Air Max 95s I said this guy has some nerve but big up Ko from atatf who was on the sneakers app talking about the sneaker I ordered them on the plane home they're lit flyi JetBlue Wi-Fi thank you the Wi-Fi got me through Dave Matthews Dave Matthews really embracing this sneak show you see how bored he is by the story wey almost took a nap in the last 38 seconds no listen when you start talking about like Wi-Fi experiences on planes that's when it's just like sorry you can't relate um doesn't doesn't do anything for me okay we could talk Metro North Wi-Fi no uh speaking of sneaker shopping did you check in on your boy I show speed uh I didn't this is where I go to sleep cuz we're talking about wrestling now and great moment I show speed the prime drink I need I needed to catch up on my Z's took the bump in Black foam posit took the bump yeah isn't this a family show no that's what you call wrestling I know what you're you're talking about and I don't know anything about that that's why I don't know anything about that the bump I do know he took a bump from Liv Morgan yep okay you know that's got you still not paying attention this is wrestling but I show speed took the bump black Foams but WrestleMania black Foams you got me now I'm back outest yeah he had WrestleMania a lot of sneaker shop and crossover moments all I'm going to say Undertaker choke slamming the final boss The Rock see the eyebrow wow Welter could do a good eyebrow race can I can't now yeah you were doing it earlier I can maybe not on purpose you're lucky I don't have my Eclipse shades on you could have really seen the eyebrow but but I'm going to a photo in here of you wearing the eclipse sh oh yeah we have that Undertaker choke slamming the Rock and the Hocus he bought at Concepts in Boston man did we get a lot of content out of that too much not too much it all went off I'm happy for you guys happy for the Huskies too don't get look we're still here baby okay what else Black Metallic Air Jordan FS are coming back I need them also oh wow I forgot we that's we just went on a r okay okay Nina Chanel abne Air Jordan nice those are nice more than nice come on the response to those you know people are saying are they saying it is it Ty Contender we're barely in April right now Jo that's what people are saying you know people have a tendency as soon as shoes get previewed they say we're maybe a sneaker we're only in ail I think I think it's like that shoe I do think is good and I do think if it if everything goes through with it it will be on a top 10 list at the end of the year I just think it's like everyone's so hungry right now where it's like every semide decent shoe that comes out they're like sneaker of the year you do it all the time I do you do it all the time you put on your Twitter you say d unless you're trolling but you do it all the time that's a joke okay that's what I said it's like an ongoing sort of like this is the greatest sneaker moment of all time like it's not okay no but you don't say greatest sneaker you sometimes I believe that you're saying that I put yeah I put in a picture of Kim Kardashian where Air Max 95 saying sneaker moment of the year like it's not I'm not being 100% serious I like the photo but it's just like it's a play on people everyone's saying seceret the year secret moment of the Year yes listen you sit right across from me we're communicating now I didn't know it was a joke yeah it's a joke okay okay but but to your point that's why I thought I was like oh you always do that I didn't know I know sneaker moment of the year has a little but sometimes I really think that you uh think there certain things I like and it's just like my personal take on I don't really think that this is like quote unquote sneaker of the year but I will say that the only shoe that I think really comes into contention so far for legitimate sneaker of the year that's coming out in April in April is the A1 yes yes Anthony Edwards yes yeah a good show we'll save that we'll revisit that we love that so many years of Adidas basketball showing the line and you were like okay okay another one go up to wherever it was 34 wherever the oh all right we have these 30 models ae1 though it's going to be on that list I think it's going to be on it's a little tough because of the dates because I think it technically released at the end of last year but it wasn't really heating up that much at that point so we might have to give it you know give it Grace user it in yeah yeah yeah we made concessions before do you guys like the Harden though I that's some people seem to be on the train with that and I just nope doesn't do anything for me Nina Chanel AB though Air Jordan 3 and a cool shoe because you know right away how much thought she put into it Matt Welty commented on the photo when she when she first previewed it and and you said you didn't really like the little orange tag that was on there and she replied to your comment saying you can cut them off in case you don't like them like she already had thought about that crazy his chain making news out here yep also he tweeted what the heck did I do no you didn't no you didn't say that you you said making the news and you did the screen grab okay it's true but yeah that that really wasn't trying to fluff my own feathers I really thought that that was like a cool little tiit of information share people definitely a little antidote I love this industry love this game you know what I just I just came back from Portland Always a Good Time shouts to index I'm sure you were there yeah I was the index she tell us about all the shoes you saw in the back that you can't talk about not yet but not yet Street saying though he was in the back room of index like he was working stock with his little MacBook Pro though Street saying that Mikey T cam everybody there what up index I always have a good time out there meet up with some industry people which is always fun for me and and and a reminder too that we sit up here a lot and we talk about Nike losing its way and the momentum they may not have and how it feels like what they do is dictated by being counters but being in Portland and seeing the people who actually make the stuff is a reminder to me that there are still cool people who really care about Footwear trying to make did you see any Bean counters though um uh I think maybe you're hinting at a story between no I'm not I think maybe you're hitting at a story I'm not hitting at anything okay okay did what I'm not hitting anything did you said no I was in close proximity to one executive I was I wasn't even referencing that you're just saying you saw a lot of cool people making their shoes but there's also there's a lot of people just being being counters so I'm saying if you ran into any of those no no no I didn't but it was heartening to to have a reminder that people really do care about this this Footwear thing and they're working hard and you know actual cool people among be encounters okay but we're back I'm back backhanded compliment you know no no no no no no that's not a backed coment at all you think the ratio to cool people at Nike to Bean counters is come on somebody's got to count the beans come on talking about some history we got history today oh we do and history that's come up a lot yeah lately decades yeah we have a wonderful guest we do should we bring our guest on let's do it our guest on today's podcast is an industry vet with over 35 years of design and Innovation expertise in the Footwear space he created one of the most iconic sneakers of all time the Reebok Pump which is not only etched in sneaker history but Sport and pop culture history as well throughout his career shoes that he's created have moved over a million pairs he currently serves as the head of Footwear at goruck a company that emphasizes gear for rucking an elevated type of hiking that loads a backpack for intense training here to talk about all his Footwear history please welcome Paul Lichfield Paul thank you so much for coming giving us your time so much history to talk about came from Boston yes sir okay fresh off the flight from Boston so excited to have you here I appreciate being here thanks for the invite guys yeah Paul the first thing we usually do is talk about our sneakers or our Footwear can you tell us what you have on feet right now so right now I have uh a pair of go rock boots they're called the Mac v1s they're part of our original kind of Legacy boot collection and this is our traveler which is a full leather boot it's got leather lining uh it's wicked comfortable and it's uh it goes all day it can dress up and look as snazzy as I do or it can be or it can be a good work boot okay yeah very fitting traveler traveled down for us um I put some rebu on tried to be fitting as well nice thank you I appreciate that yeah yeah the old the old EXO fits uh yeah workout plus workout plus collaboration actually this is a shoe I wore for many years as Matt wealty remembers and made them quite crusty and have gone through a couple pairs I didn't think I had a fresh pair yeah oh access to one you're going to make those crusty as well I might have to crusy them yeah that's what I'm doing I'm doing the Barcelona I like it Air Max Plus tn's Coach Murray ones like I said shouts to Yukon again uh these are the Joe Fresh good New Balance 1000s nice team huh y pair the pink pair yep Paul so much history man I like that you're here because I've been doing some episodes of sneaker shopping and the Reebok Pump has come up like three times in the past three episodes so happy to like peel the layers back from the guy who invented them well thank oh yeah invent is a pretty strong word put it together sure absolutely I okay yeah no but yeah it was yeah it was a great great product and uh had a lot of fun making it how did it start so basically uh back in the mid 80s I was at Reebok and basketball as a uh as a sport was changing a lot you know you had Dr J in the ABA but then you had um uh you had magic you had uh bird you had you know the game was getting faster it was getting a lot more of a players game right the sneakers at the time the basketball shoes uh had to evolve with them from a functional stpoint so uh one of the tasks we had at Reebok we had a really decent emerging basketball line with the original BB 4600 5600 6600 uh and they were great shoes um and Reebok was crushing it at the time yeah yeah we were yeah we well we were on the we were just on the next plateau of really beginning to crush it and so um The Challenge was to make a better basketball shoe a uh a shoe that uh that was more supportive and and that could support these you know these huge athletes that were moving at a at a pace that nobody ever had kind of previously anticipated so uh we we looked at a whole bunch of different things like we looked at straps we looked at um braces we looked at all kinds of uh things that were intended to support the ankle and things like that without limiting the range of motion and then we uh through a series of events we ended up looking at some inflatable methods you know aircast um air splints and things like that so we through a series of twists and turns settled on this uh this this pump mechanism and and the and the pump ended up being a a method that could essentially customize a mass built shoe so you know the four of us here let's say we're all about the same size you know each one of our each one of us but each one of our feet even are slightly different in in fit and size and volume so the the intent of the pump was to make it so that um the shoe would literally envelop your foot and and through like the pump yeah through like you have one of the original pumps so like the the amount of like pumps be custom that's what would be the customized aspect of the shoe to your foot yeah so Joe uh so like we were talking earlier um we had a couple of first models uh and and the first models this was before it was the pump and we had um a manual pump uh with a with a release mechanism on the side of the shoe on the outside it was a little U basically a little car tire valve or bicycle tire valve uh and and it had a a a heal pump on the on the back and then we had a second one which I thought was way cooler which was it had a little dial on the side of the the lateral side of the shoe uh and that dial was like essentially a dimmer switch it could go all the way open all the way closed or somewhere in between and then we had a little heel pump inside of the shoe okay uh and and it inflated automatically so we did a bunch of testing um in January February of 1989 um prior to the pump being the pump and turned out that the basketball players that we were testing in the Boston area they all kind of would sit down when they were in between scrimmages or games and they'd be pumping the back of their heel and it was it was a lesson to me particular at the time cuz I thought like oh the cool one's the cool one but the customer the players they were interacting with the manual element of delight yeah and then they were releasing it and you could hear little it's like a dopam can you imagine if social media existed it would have went triple platinum the first testing players pumping well Joe thanks to D Brown and Dominique and some of the other guys it did go triple without a doubt and and Shaq and all all all the boys who did it but uh but so what happened getting back to your thing Joe is that like when we finally uh when it became clear that we're going to do a manual pump we had to change from those early models to what is considered now sorry this thing's fall original just peeling back the the fourth wall there's some you have to be very careful with this this is a an OG and it almost heing back literally yeah almost collapsed the the soul almost collapsed just now so I'm not touching it well yeah no and and I know I don't have gloves on right now but but and I know that all the sneaker fishing AOS out in the world they'll recognize when you have a pu midsole or pu material regardless of what you do you can hermetically seal it but it just degrades over time so this was June of 1989 and unfortunately the the the shoe is literally falling apart I had some of the earlier ones that were even more fragile I just couldn't bring them but you know we we we can see them later got it um so uh so yeah so this basically had the pump on on the tongue how did you come up with like you said you had that and how did you come up with the actual basketball so this was really cool so basically from that first one uh which was the pump shot which had the pump on the heel yeah uh we couldn't manufacture you could make it but you couldn't manufactured it took us a long time to like hand assemble it literally so it was a great shoe it worked well but you couldn't it wasn't designed for manufacturing so uh in a last minute panic when Paul fireman who was the owner of Reebok Legend yeah what and well we we had shown these at the Atlanta Super Show I don't know if you guys are old enough to remember Atlanta Super Show but it used to be like that was the CES the sports brands come out and show their new product sorry man uh and and so what what happened was at the Atlanta Super Show in February we had a closed room where you could try on the pumps now at the same time uh Nike had their air pressure um and and it was really slick they had this um as you were walking in the Nike Booth it was under glass all lights and it looked you went to the Nike Booth you weren't afraid to just go in there behind any I was out in you could look you can look at the entrance no Nike was pretty pretty tight on that so so it was underglass and I thought like oh [ __ ] that I mean it was a done shoe ours was a pro were prototypes and so um fast forward when we get back from Atlanta there was a big buzz because people could try on our shoes and and and there was a lot of you know the uh influen influential people in the in the business really kind of dug it they're like this is really cool so Paul fireman's like all right we're going to launch this at on holiday you know at Black Friday of 1989 and so I was like well well can't we can't make them yeah and Paul was pretty clear that you know if I was going to remain a reok employee that will it'll be made so yeah so so what happened was we were working with an outside design firm design Continuum uh and they were all they were the technical engineering support behind all all of this and they they did a great job but I needed some rebok eyes of the design so long story is I went to our VP of design Paul Brown and I said Paul here's the pump on the back um it needs to be moved somewhere so I'm going to pick this up again stresses me out every time he up the shoe it needs to be moved somewhere so that we can manufacture it we can assemble it and stuff like that so Paul took I don't know four or five days literally and then he came back with a drawing that looked essentially like this right I'm not sure which camera is good but this this one here and and he said you know he goes you know L I um I I made the the pump look like a basketball because it's a basketball shoe and I thought fck genius genius and I'm like and then I'm like I don't know any idea how to make this little latex ball look like a basketball you know so uh so so anyways we uh we we messed around for a few months we we worked on it and ultimately um we came up with the the cover which is the pump cover and but that was that was Paul Brown basically taking the Reebok kind of design guidance and and the philosophy and making it look like that and then we had to build it so Black Friday 1989 is the official launch yeah was $170 it was so what happened was as we're making it with the manufacturing company and I got and this I also got the brass tooling the original brass tooling from from this this is one of the first bladders we made uh in June of 1989 still works and we had to sign a contract with this manufacturer called dialectric Industries uh out of Massachusetts that made blood bags and sewn our uh buoys and things like they welded stuff together right and they're like well you got to make 36,000 pairs of these in a year I heard the first one was only 7,000 pairs the first drop so so what happened was our VP of s Bob MIRS at the time he had he went to Foot Locker and pulled in a favor he's like and it was probably a little bit less than four 7,000 it was one container okay he's like please just take these things you know because because it wasn't were they skeptical oh everybody it was $170 yeah like like you know it was yeah and I mean arguably why not be skeptical right that's like if you just think for like a a comparison you know it's like in 1985 when the Air Jordan one launches the sho's $65 and that's $175 for years later that was like 20 rcks today huh yeah no exact well and and also and also as Reebok we were known as as a performance brand but we were kind of upstart we weren't not we weren't Adidas we weren't Puma we weren't the the the running kind of foundation of Nike and so you know even though we had been in the running rebok been around since 1895 with JW Foster and you know Chariots of Fire and that kind of stuff and a legit company it just one of those deals where uh it it didn't um you know it was $170 and at the time so a favor was pulled in and yeah so we only had about 6 7,000 pairs that were produced at first and how' they move here's what happened in the meantime started making them in September September 20th of 20 1989 I remember these dates because the we were talking earlier um you know it's it in social media this stuff all plays like it's like it's a a slick story I needed the goddamn job like like I needed to stay employed and and and this thing needed to work and and and and so it was just it was work I love that though I love that it's even like not to bring up Nike but they had that design contest something had to work this new generation it's like this cosmetic thing you were like fighting for your life to make it yeah and and and I I wanted to stay employed and also you know we you know I I I got a little Irish Pride I me I want to make sure the stuff works yeah you know and and so it's got to be legit and things like that and that's just the way it goes and so it's one of those deals where we we end up um uh making it um and the first production so what we did was we we literally had this thing tested for hours before it got shipped so which uh these okay back then you talk about the a basketball shoe cost about 12 a half to $15 right at the shoe at the factory level to make and then it gets up to like 65 70 bucks or something like that right um this bladder cost $17.98 alone so that cost more than the shoe way more wow you know and then the assembly and stuff and then we did was um because it cost so much um every every bladder that was made was inflated for 3 hours when it was first made then it was inflated for another 3 hours to make sure it held air uh after it cooled down and all complicated process yes but then when it when it shipped out to Korea at the time when it landed in Korea another three hours inflated to make sure it didn't degrade when we flew it over there because we we didn't know at the time there people in the factories must be running out of breath well here here here's here's where it get here's where it gets really squirly because then then when you assemble a shoe that's all stitched together needles and air bladders don't work well together so we inflate it a fourth time for 3 hours on the up but then but then what you and and this is one thing to to press this thing cuz it's a it's a latex bulb well when you have a yes when you have a cover on top of it it's harder so at the end of the line you inflated them uh to make sure that they stayed inflated and then uh they got deflated and they got put in the box and and shipped every pair so there was someone's job that at the end of the line was just to pump up the shoes see this is Matt Matt's on to something here yeah this guy pay he his spot but the wheel the hamster on the wheel yeah abely it works well my boy over here yeah just laying in the cut ready yes good pick up got you go uh so uh so basically what happened was um yeah they had to do that well after I left after a couple weeks of they had another couple weeks of manufacturing to do uh and I had to fly back uh and then we of course shipped them over I air freed them over and finished and then when we got to the warehouse in Massachusetts I said they all got to be tested so my buddy Dave called me he goes hey most of these things don't work I'm like what I'm like what yeah he's like most of these don't work and this is this is a a couple weeks before the launch like what are you talking about well as it turns out after I left people were getting more than fatigue cramping trying to fill these things up ex after so what they did Matt was they took a sewing machine they took the needle off but they had the foot of the sewing machine oh just wow well it's great if you hit right and and BR you'll see this but when on this latex bulb it's great here but there's a little diaphragm there a plastic diaphragm the sewing machine has no tactile feel so if it hits this hard thing it just Rams it down so that was literally the last time these shoes were ever going to be inflated they tried to chat GPT yeah yeah exactly so so so um so I'm like oh so after all this work I'm like all right I'm done well what we did was uh I got my um couple of uh my little s we had a s little sample room so I talked to the Sample Room folks and I quietly I said don't say a word to anybody we took some shoes and at the top of this it's a closed tongue so what we did was we took the stitches off I took the stitches off I looked down I saw a crush valve went out the dialectric got some new valves put them in replaced it these uh the folks restitch them the level of work but did you find out that they were using the the needle before or after you replaced the valve oh after and like but but but because we only had this short run it was static so so we could change it before they they made more got it um and we did that quickly and again it's not video you know not real time um you know Zoom calls or anything it's all what was that phone call like though to call when you're calling Korea and you're like tell them to stop using the sewing machine probably high pitched and probably a lot of four go there we go they rhyme with r exactly yes they do rhyme with Ruck uh so uh this kid yeah carry on he's my straight guy so uh so uh yeah so anyways um long story short um they the team we worked Around the Clock literally got them and and the the folks who stitched the folks who they did the hard work I I was I was hanging out drinking beer uh and they uh and and they um they ended up uh fixing it nobody knew I remember I didn't tell that story for years nobody knew about that for years and years yeah because I'm like I didn't want anyone thinking it was it was suspect anyways Paul fireman then held up the shoe at the Chicago ISO show ISO and Atlanta were the iso was the international version of the CES kind of thing the Atlanta Super Show and he said this is going to be essentially the freestyle of the 90s meaning it was going to put Reebok on the map in the 1990s and that started it and then I got to tell and this is where this is where the um the rubber meets the road because we made a product it worked really well super proud of it super proud of the team and stuff but then the machine the marketing team the advertising team the pr folks um the athletes everyone got together and they did some pretty famous um first commercials and and had pump it up there do you remember when that commercial like came out oh yeah I thought it was so Matt honestly God I thought it was absolutely genius and I thought that it was literally like it hit on top IC On Target to what the shoe did going right at yeah and when you had the different athletes you know like Byron Scott was like you pump it up 16 times and then uh Doc Rivers like you know pump it up and then Dominique like everyone had their own numbers and stuff and then uh I think U Pat Riley was like yeah you just hit this button you know so I was reading you were getting feedback from everyone and saying Dominique wiins but then Pat Riley he so particular about everything him giving feedback that must have been interesting yeah and him and Digger Phelps and some of the other people andu and so and so to be honest and again I was saying this to the boys off camera I interacted with those folks very very intermittently I I was I was making I was making this stuff there were people who worked with those those folks a lot Joan bersak and some of our some of our F you know Jo she worked on the shack line right yeah yeah and Joanne was was like Armenian Legend yeah yeah she's awes Joanne Joan shout out she's awesome uh and uh and and so Joanne and the team Mark Holzman and everyone they they were the ones who did a lot of the um a lot of the front face faing stuff so I didn't work with those guys but I know that they were a handful sometimes and then the de brown moment like you knew about the commercial did you know that the D Brown moment was coming or it was organic or or what I had the privilege of getting an OD D during the 20 year anniversary of the pump and things like that so I didn't I didn't interact with with him much when he's a rookie but first of all having a Boston Celtics in the slam dunk competition back then not not typical right and so he was in there he was a rookie he's a smallish dude I mean for a basketball player 61 6 too MH and so it was unlikely that whole thing where he um bent down that was him that was kind of spontaneous and that was something that was just organic he wanted to set and then the reaction I I mean you have to talk to him about this but I think you know the reaction that he got it just it just kept on amplifying I mean it's like one of the like the most iconic sneaker moments absolutely he told me in an interview that he was originally going to do something with his hat yeah but that he couldn't use his hat because it was considered a prop so he figured out the shoes instead and I think he gave Joan up befor I'm going to incorporate the shoes but like Joan would have been on site and you know at at the yeah and so that's uh and again that's kind of real time kind of stuff you know the pump became such a pop cultural shoe too it transcended in this way and some of that had to do with these movie appearances Wayne's World and atin Powers did you have any say in that or oh no no you know no I mean as you can tell you probably have to do a lot of filters here lot the movie sets not my gig you know so what would happen is that if the pr teams uh engaged with any of the movie studios or any of the actors or anything and they needed something special we definitely you know uh myself or our team or somebody on on the team would work on you know doctoring things up how do you feel though when you know there's the scene in Austin Powers where he just starts pumping pumping pumping explodes like how much would you have to pump that shoe up to get it to explode so it's literally impossible because it's it's physics what and what happens is and uh is that uh the the way that the way that we quilt it right like the the the quilting on this uh is intended to let it expand only a certain amount when we first made the pump we didn't have any of these quilt patterns so you had this big air chamber and it was like putting on a blood pressure cuff and if if you guys ever had your blood pressure taken you know couple of pumps and all of a sudden you don't feel your fingers so that happened with us and so the quilting actually allows it to only expand a certain amount in different areas right so um so it and with this with this little ball it's you can you can really pump it up a lot but you get to a a level of pressure where you just can't open up or burp that little check valve that's in there so you can't blow it up did you did you have to change the pump at all or do any more re-engineering when you put it into Sha's first signature shoe uh no we just had it made a lot bigger and and and and and I know this now with sha shoes uh with the shack noses and some of the other ones we also had a fast forward into the shack time um we wanted to get to the next stage and and what Paul fireman had said one time he says I want somebody to go to the Olympics and and do you know the 100 me of Dash uh and uh and basically fill up their shoes automatically and take off so myself and my buddy Step Smith you know Stephen so so so Steph and I were working together at the time and what a combo name a more iconic Duo okay wow t Team champs yeah yeah no thanks Ste step's awesome so we were we were actually we're we're trying to find out what was going and we're both I was doing a lot of mountain biking at the time and stuff we went down to the um indro bike show and we were walking around and and off in the corner there were these two guys um Jeff and Tony uh out of Arizona they had a little bike shop but they had this thing called tire flate and it was basically a little CO2 cartridge that you could literally uh if you were racing you could quickly uh take off your um take off and you get a flat change your tire and basically instantly inflate it so see I like hey can we take that and they're like yeah so we went back and worked with myself and our our colleague David larazza and we re-engineered it so we came remember that instaf flate device the little cartridge yeah yeah couldn't have it these days but this is before 911 right and so we metered it so you could fill it up so one of Shaq's shoes uh had the instaf flate device and that that was a whole you know it's a CO2 canister and that could that could overinflate things so we had to do different stuff with with that so long story but yeah so there was different stuff that went on with Shack shoes that were uh part of the the Next Generation you come from obviously such a design and you know chemist background but when I think a lot of us are interviewing celebrities about their first sneaker moment so many of them we just had Jake gyllen Hall like three weeks ago and I said like what was your first sneaker memory and he was like all day just being in class pumping up the rebok that's cool that's very very cool what is it like to hear those stories again you come from the design and it was a challenge how it's transcended pop culture so it's it's really gratifying it's humbling to be honest with you and uh and and it's it's cool I mean it's it's wicked cool to be associated with with cool people and so you guys know I mean I'm not I I I work on this [ __ ] I work on this stuff you can that right yeah yeah yeah I mean and and I just really enjoy it right and and and so and so when cool people or notable people you know engage in it and and dig it yeah yeah it's it's awesome I mean it's it's kind of icing on the cake but but so for me what I try to do with all my products even now with go Ruck the story the romance of it that will get people hopefully excited about it our job on the product side like your job here in the podcast is to make sure people come back yeah make sure people buy it a second time make sure you know make sure the product lives up to the value right and and so that's that's kind of the that's kind of the the Evergreen challenge of it all yeah right how do you make sure people understand the product because I feel like the rebok pump we keep using the word iconic and it's absolutely a fair word to use and it was this idea that you would pump the shoes up and you would jump higher yeah were kids getting confused about what it actually did and did you have to educate them yes there was a lot of Education going on uh and and that wasn't me and as you can tell um I usually need a translator going out to the public no no and and and I mean that just because the now not not here cuz I'm ready to run through a wall seriously with the honestly I'm not even like I'm not even like gassing no I appreciate that but but it's just really cool and I'll talk about the goor rock thing in a minute because I'm old I'm only at gock because I'll tell you what that cleanness that like what you just referred to like that's at go rock I mean that go rock is a unique brand most most people here may not know about it yet but I got to tell you what this brand is special because it's super clean it's it's really about just the product and about you know what you're going to do with it how it's going to behave and how it's going to hold up for you so but get so getting back um sorry about that um no no this this brief message was brought by no but basically the story and the messaging hopefully I'm a little bit better at it as far as being calmer about it I used to get pretty amped up when people would be uh a little bit looser in in their definition of what it did and so the marketing people maybe pushing the envelope a little too far and or you know you know not stated the right way but the but the point is is that for me I um fortunately there there are marketing people who are way better at their job than I would ever be and so they tell the story in a cool repetitive kind of stick or away that that makes it work right and I'd be pretty passionate about describing what it does and then somebody would distill it down word Smith it out and and make it make it understandable yeah you know but yeah so you mentioned Stephen Smith obviously you guys worked together at Reebok for a while and one of his masterpieces is the insta pump Fury where they he and I did that yeah what was it like having to change the bag on that to make it fit into the running shoe versus the basketball model so we had already done a running shoe called the pump running but it was again it was a it was a bladder so one of the challenges we had there was actually I was with Stephen when he did his little Doodle uh we were in I think in Taiwan at the time that's what he and I would do we did pump cushioning at the time we did um insta pump Fury and all that it wasn't again these are the names now they were all called different names at the time and you know Stephen he's uh and uh love your kid but you know it's a it's a thing right you know you know so uh so so with that taking all of the fit off except for the bladder we needed the bladder to expand in a certain way and behave in a certain way but then lock out and not continue the other thing we needed to do was to make sure that the outside of the shoe actually acts as a bit of a brace to push the air in uh if the Air's up against your foot and there's nothing on the outside it just continues to expand so it expand out versus in yeah so uh we did a lot of work um a lot of science on the engineering of the fabric and we went down to North Carolina went down to a place called Adell nits we worked with uh myself and uh this guy Matt montros we worked on the uh on a certain kind of a fabric that would stretch it in a certain amount but then lock out uh and then we had to laminate that uh almost like a almost like a you know when you're um when you're on an airplane and they do the uh the the flight attendants do the their the life jacket life jacket so it's essentially a life jacket kind of process you know because that's that's basically a pump bladder right and at the time we actually Steve and I spent a lot of time actually out in um at Takata in Japan where they do the airbags because airbags were new back then because that whole so there's a lot of layers and a lot of overlap mat so yeah what we did was you know um it allowed us to be kind of students of a bunch of different stuff to get to the destination so that was one of the challenges with the fury would you think that that shoe become this like I know you like the the pump itself the basketball shoe that became such a part of early 90s uh you know Legend but then I feel like the pump Fury's taking on its own life too as this huge like cult classic sneaker it's one of those conundrums right because when we first did the pump Fury and Stephen will tell you um you know it was a Pari because it didn't look act or behave rebok they didn't really believe in it in like the colors and everything you guys want it matter of fact I had to go to this guy Ed lucier uh who was our one of the VPS of marketing and Paul fireman you know Ed yeah yeah so so Eddie Eddie's awesome hey Ed uh and uh and so um we had to go there and basically ask a favor say listen can we please make it in this color because and again respect to the running team they were trying to run the business and pun intended yeah yeah wow dude go on go on traveling with me okay so uh give me a pair of Travelers and I'll do it he'll be at the comedy seller tonight typ five please there you go so uh so basically uh you know they're trying to run they're trying to manage their business right uh and uh and in doing so you know you come up with this shoe that's got no midfoot Arch at all um bizarre looking shoe bizarre looking shoe and yet you know it worked I mean it it worked it worked pretty well and so we were able to force it from above in to the business and you know it was it was modestly respected I can say that in hindsight um uh at the time it probably wasn't highly endorsed but what happened was Matt was that like some really early Avant guard folks around the world they started digging it you know like Bor W early on yeah yeah and uh and also like in Tokyo like I'm huge in Tokyo Jackie Chan Jackie Chan were yeah yeah like uh you know and uh we made some shoes for him and and whatnot and so but did you make the shoes for Jack J were you involved in that yeah yeah so cool how do you make a custom pa extra padding for him to kick people in the face that involved colors okay colors and logos did you speak with Jackie Chan when you were making okay no I'm not allowed to talk no no no you I mean you act you're the mad scientist I feel like they don't keep you totally locked in the lab like you must have met 50 Cent or Jay-Z when they were yeah well that was that was Todd krinsky who's the CEO of now shout out t uh and um uh and and because he had he had rbk and so that was that was a whole different did you meet 50 and Jay when they came met 50 um they put they put the pump on one of the gunit shoes too right oh yeah yeah and uh my buddy Bill mcginness spent a bunch of time with uh with uh 50 and stuff like that he thought he was cool he's not Bill's not cool Bill you're not cool Bill trying to sign the git did you have did 50 wear test the pump to get it yeah what was that like he was he was pretty badass back then you know and so still bad yeah no I get it my go in case no yeah if you're listening it's he told me to say that you know so yeah those guys wanted to wear it and so they did but it was again all of these things you know I can tell like a story that connects but it wasn't it wasn't really like that it was about like these these efforts and these moments and then either actions or reactions to what's going on right you know and so you know the the the fury I thought it was a really cool Next Step because what we did was we took we went we made a customized shoe and the pump mhm but then we took everything off except for the pump you know and that was the fury and so you know it it just I I I I was I was happy with how it worked and performed I know it may not have been the coolest looking shoe at the time but it's funny you say that because in 2001 I remember didn't they do a Chanel version of the in they did you talk about like aesthetically and not being aesthetically pleasing but then they did this super rare doesn't get much cooler than that okay but but but check this out and this is this is what's funny about that okay that's 2001 we did the fury in '93 and launch at 94 that's a long drw before you get your first date okay true ahead of your time yes yeah yes you're just out of out of step with time you know one or the other totally but but that's but that's also again and and again props to rebok Steve Vincent and the late great Al at AIT the folks at Nike Innovation you know we had our companies gave us the luxury of time and and and with that luxury of time we were challenge to make new stuff and uh and and and the new stuff had to work so sometimes if you if you push the envelope too far you are I guess ahead of your time but most a lot of times it just look like you're out of Step at the moment you know what I mean so so and again it's and you just got to have thick skin and you just got to keep on moving ahead how much do you miss those you know late 80s early 90s like sneaker Wars days where you know Reebok Nike and Adidas are all battling to make the coolest most Innovative SHO Cho it's funny I um I was really happy to be part of that like really happy and really lucky to be part of that I don't miss it because I think now with the way things are like and again I'm going to circle back to gock like I'm at gock because this company uh has got an ethos of committing to a standard it's founded by Jason McCarthy who was a retiring Green Beret who made a go bag for his wife and you know the whole story and when I met Jason in 2013 and 14 because Reebok was evaluating whether they might want to get in business with him that's how I met Jason and the first thing he said he goes hey you did the pump huh I go yeah and he goes uh oh you got samples I go yeah I'm right here you know and uh because I had him in my office and he said let me see him so he and I just and he I said so you did the gr1 which is our first rucksack and he approached his product in a similar fashion that I did on the on the pump and with all the bumps and bruises and then the and then the pretty story at the end right uh and and he and I just kind of like hit off so a long story Matt is that the old days were were awesome and I was really happy to be part of it in the thick of it uh but like today where the uh where the sneaker business has evolved and mobile phones you know social media that kind of stuff is kind of more important arguably than the brands themselves the different items that get dropped are awesome but like the brands are just kind of the big brands well to have a go a startup like G rook and to have it like as clean for me and as uh as clear about what it's supposed to be and what I'm supposed to do which is make stuff that works this is like a 2.0 version of our sneaker Wars and I'm sure there are smaller Brands out there who may feel the same way because you know to to to break in to the to the big to the big boys world do you see that with like all this like emergence of Brands like Hoka and on like getting into the space do you think that they're bringing that like early 90s sneaker Wars energy I think they're bringing a similar Vibe not necessarily the sneak Awards but but but maybe the um the upstart like at at the time yeah the challengers like like at the time uh it was um the OG uh Adidas Adidas and Puma then you had Nike and Converse was always there as well there a couple of big there was saky there was eonic there was uh uh anuka which became A6 you know those guys were the big dogs right did they ever try and poach you did Nike ever try and hire you away from Rebo no nobody wants me no no no big offer no I'm I'm I'm an acquired taste BR okay but how how competitive were you at the time about like the whole like ethos of like wanting to bury Nike dude to say laser focus would be probably an understatement love that speaking my language yeah you know and again you know this is this is the this is the Kinder version of me like uh and uh and seriously and and again it's just just it's just part of the gig if you're going to for me two things if I want to be in the game I better be a student of what I'm doing and really learn my craft and number two I will do everything above board to win everything which is why which is why I love goor Ruck because they they live the same way it's amazing yeah it's just it's really cool not to keep talking about other iterations I was like an internet complex and one sneaker from that era that always sticks out was the a life tennis ball pump oh yeah sure so when that came out what was it cool Michael Chang it was a chang before it was aif it was a chang was second gen yes yes yes exactly but I remember just like the pages of complex and like I was helping intern but I remember like full pages of that specific model what was it like to see those iterations so I was still at Reebok 2009 2010 when the 20 year anniversary came up and to be honest with you when the rebok business units were like hey would like you to get involved I'm like well cool but no thanks you know like it was 20 years ago and they're like no it's going to be cool I'm like yeah my mother and father will like it and and that'll be a you I I was just I wasn't I wasn't that tuned in to where it could go so um doing some of the collaborations and some of the you know like with aif and some of the other stuff that that did you work on the there was the soulbox one where where the pump lit up on it I didn't I I I didn't work on it directly but yeah I was I was around to help out with some of that and all that and yeah so those guys all that stuff was just uh it was really cool it was very cool and to see even the OG pump when we remade it with like Eva so it wouldn't fall apart and stuff like that you know when it started running down the line and when the fury was running down the line uh you know I I did a um I did some stuff with a sneaker freaker with Woody a sneaker Freer shut out Woody uh but and and and we and it was just cool to see the product I mean honestly the intent was to make something that worked and to keep my job I wasn't intended to talk about it 20 years later or goddamn 35 goddamn years later I mean [ __ ] come on right I mean for for for real it's just one of those deals where I just you know I I really appreciate you guys doing it because because it yeah it's a proud moment but I mean this is only happening because of you guys for real and I mean this is not just platitudes it's it's legit because you guys talk about this stuff you guys make it important and then the customer and the consumer makes it important what about the John Cena moment well uh so the back in the wrest wrestling means nothing to me mass Massachusetts we're 4 days away from he he does not like wrestling we're four days away from WrestleMania that that just passed but John Cena so so so here's the deal so uh at Reebok at the time we were a small kind of eclectic group right there was this young dude um out of the Boston area Mike Longo Mike if he he lives in he lives in Asia right now I'm going to see him next trip in Vietnam just saw my last trip he's working out there Longo was our World Wrestling Federation contact okay he had he used to have all the athletes in like Hulk uh Jim hack s did he make those uh there was the Macho Man Randy Savage re that was Longo that was Mike and and and and so and so Mike would have all these guys in like and and these guys were they were they were just really cool dudes yes and so Longo would hook them all up with uh not only product and whatnot but also like cool stuff and so yeah he frustrated all of those moments and that was really cool so Cena yeah he's a he's a mass guy yeah so he would come into the office Cena to like those guys would yeah yeah yeah and there were a lot of them and and long ago would uh he I'll take Jackie Chan over John Cena Yeah so Jackie Chan was awesome Michael Chang was a yeah those Jackie Chan came to the office uh he uh in the Hong Kong office yeah so Mike Longo yeah wow no I need to hear about Jackie Chan I didn't interact much with him but him and Michael Chang in in our Hong Kong office literally like walked on water yeah guess crazy stuff to go on the next stuff you have the the bag of gor Ruck shoes I do all right so goruck bag too right oh yeah go rock bag go rock everything here's the thing go rock based from a backpack a rock sack when I met Jason McCarthy he wanted to make Footwear he needed to do it his way and he needed to do it clean so I worked with Jason I worked with uh our senior adviser and and my boss now Richard rice who is a original OG kind of U Green Beret as well as a um he helped found some of the most special and secretive units in the in the United States military he's got a legendary background that I'm not going to talk anything about we're not even allowed to talk about no it's not my story and honestly Rich right now yeah yeah it wouldn't be cool However the fact was he was in Vietnam and uh he wanted to make the original uh jungle uh Welco the the jungle boot that was made by Welco it it had certain features and benefits so we wanted to make our our first boot that was an homage to that but an update so we made our macv one and then this is a version of that right here uh but then more importantly um as we started doing different work we did a bunch of Fitness things we made sandbags we make Ruck plates we and and so we started opening the aperture of Footwear and we wanted to make the most functional kind of gym shoe you could so what we did was we ended up making a shoe we call the ballistic trainer yep uh and again we in the in the CrossFit space functional fitness a lot of people do zero drop a lot of people do biome mechanically to develop more power you want to have a certain heel lift you want to put yourself in a certain position so we made the ballistic trainer in a particular way to take advantage of of that of of those positions and we uh we put in um we have a contoured sock liner that we had developed actually with the NFL way back when you know uh to support the foot uh it's a three dimen it car carries all three of your arches I can pull some of these out so and and we actually you know he's a real crossfitter too so you're speaking his language right now oh you are yeah oh very cool I I'll get you some kit have have you got some I haven't I haven't had a chance to try the shoes yet okay so you're what 11 uh yes oh 11 and a half 11 and a half all right yeah right on eyesight dude yeah yeah well those a little bit puffy I didn't know if that was you know you know so so this this is one of the uh new models we're going to make for the CrossFit Games here check it out so what we did Matt was um he was going to do the open this year but he had to skip it that's not a joke yeah really yeah I can't tell when you're joking give me a wink or something will you Jesus that's the whole point so so so Matt here's what we did threw his back out oh he did yeah oh that sucks fun times he was wearing long shoes I guess there it is dude okay so don't know don't care what you wear okay here's the deal I I want to get you a pair of these what we did was it's a one piece engineered knit up or so for some flexibility this is a ballistic nylon polyester material that will withstand rope climbing yep it also locks your your foot over your over your heel uh and then what we do is it's a low profile heel but we did was it's a three compound check this out Joe you you love this yes okay High abrasion for uh High abrasion heel this is actually a rock climbing material so this thing here will take uh rope climbs and not wear down not tear apart not fall apart and this has got a stickier 4 foot for traction okay uh and so what we did also was we ended up putting uh in the uh in the shoe our three-dimensional molded sock liner it's got a medial Arch like a lot of them do it's got uh a a longitudinal Arch and it's got a little bump in the front for your transverse Arch the intent is to hold your foot now I know crossfitters yeah yeah sure there you go BR here do you think a lot of like people who are uh developing shoes at the brands have the same sort of like institutional knowledge that you have about how all these things work or is this like something that there's like a course you can take where you can get all this stuff or it's you're only going to learn it from doing it for 40 years I don't know how many people in the brands have have got the experience I have um it's it's it's not mystery I I got it I mean I went to undergrad for biochemistry and nutrition I got my master's degree in ex uh in exercise science in on muscle metabolism went on to do basically muscle muscle metabolism research and performance research before I got in the business got kicked out of a PhD program decided to get in the sneaker business for a few weeks literally so you think all that stuff because you get a lot of people nowadays who just love sneakers and they want to go into making shoes just cuz they like wearing shoes and the way they look but do you think that going through all those processes would maybe better inform someone who wants to like figure out how sneakers work Matt without a doubt and and here's the deal for me it's like when I go to a uh when I go to a car dealership and you get the guy who's the who's the salesman and he'll tell you what buttons work and he'll tell you what the color is he'll tell you what the options are the dude doesn't know anything about the car and it it it baffles me it's like how do you do your job without getting down to I mean I'll go because of my science background I'll get down to the molecular level literally on the formulations I just will I you know we'll we'll look at primers we'll look at adhesives we'll look at ways to to to to make things we'll look at I mean we'll do all kinds of stuff Matt what we also did in there because I know the CrossFit Community typically or the the community out in the in the exercise functional fitness space is used to kind of flatter shoes so with our ballistic trainer in every pair you've got you get your contoured molded sock liner Y A lot of people don't like that so we actually we actually also include a 5mm flat pair of sock liners of a and that's actually more substantial than most sock liners you're going to get in any shoe just general we put two in we spend a lot of money making sure that you we give you a broad range of stuff that will satisfy your needs again this is what this is what makes things different with gooru gock is all about making it so that it's legit making it so you guys get an experience with the product that measures up to the standard and the value that you guys have one thing I love too I was looking at the website and you go to the Footwear section and there's there's a kind of a mission statement at the top it says a go Ruck we have the freedom and the independence to build every freestyle from the ground up with zero input from shareholders or Finance types yeah listen we like Pat listen we like Pat Riley's feedback none of that's happening at go Ru though oh oh believe me let me tell you something Ry got a pair let me let me tell you something the the the the the the community that uh Jason and the team and these guys come from no Bean counters no Bean counters but they they are on Pat Riley kind of levels in their in their own world love that quite professionals people that will just disappear into those Shadows out there but I'll tell you what uh they talk to us they talk to me very pointedly okay um many times you know speaking of engineering I just I just have to get your opinion on this did you think Nike like Air Max was crap when it first came out or you think it or did you think it was legit and you had to worry about it as as far as like from like an engineering this product actually works perspective so interesting question um did it work yeah like from a vertical component the the the bag the cushioning bag that Frank Rudy Marian Rudy did yeah I mean that's legit when Nike did the bag they used to fill it with CFC 131 which is a fluorocarbon because that was the the greenhouse gases that were because what would happen is that the the the the bag itself needed to be static for the time and it would literally leak out like like just like not not leak like catastrophically just kind of profuse out pressure they would lose its pressure and what they did was they actually did this science where they were looking at I think it was between 18 and 24 PSI it needed to be well over time that plastic would expand a little bit so they had to calculate how do you um take in account where and that's why the range because ultimately I think they wanted to be about 18 PSI so at first it's about 24 PSI but then the the the airbag would expand a little bit and the pressure would drop and so the this is so real Sho do real Sho dos going man yeah this is the kind of stuff to me that is just super cool and and and this is the kind of stuff to me that is it's not the magic it's no it is it's the effort but but but but brenon to me I mean it might be magic as you talk about it but dude that's how you get down to like the molecular level now was I ever afraid of Nike MX no I respect the hell out of them still respect Nike I mean as a competitor absolutely and and the fact that they have no regard for anyone else I love that it's awesome by the way I couldn't give a rat's ass about them no not at a at a professional at personal level you know God love them all you know for real but but it but St so Stephen ends up like creating the vapor Max yep at Reebok originally right kind of did you help him with that we had a lot of product that we did in the mid90s that never saw the light of day it just it's just it was our job you're literally like scientists in the lab like creating this stuff or just goofballs messing around you know give yourself some credit no I'm okay with that yeah yeah yeah no so so so BR I I actually pretty I'm pretty confident with what I do and and what we do but you know again out there in the world today a lot of people want to put a big label on you yeah dude I'm just I'm just doing my job I happen to love it I happen to work really hard at it and I want to learn everything about it every day literally I I just do so go rock how can people get them what's the best way to get them so so so here's the I want to talk about one other shoe as well so U we also just did a shoe we call the rough Runner okay what this is it's it's actually a it's a running style it's a Ruck running shoe it's designed differently than all the other running shoes out there today but it's a rough Runner the rough Runner real shoe dog stuff R rough well so so it actually it actually comes it actually comes from rough yeah I get I get I want my credit d i I got to I I got to be the celebrity actually oh Jillian said uh the talent I gotta be the talent yeah exactly here you go kid uh these shoes they're a running shoe they're a rock running shoe but they're different than the shoes out there today the midsole is substantially different in material it's it's highly resilient it's lightweight it's flexible but it's also going to hold up now as it turns out this is a great training shoe treadmill shoes it's a treadmill shoe cuz I need my dude I need one I got to hook you boys up after this I need one actually maybe some other guys could hook the boys up thank you treadmill shoes not great I need to step it up but but but here's the deal here's the deal and this is honest to God's truth when we're all done um whatever you guys get whatever we can get for you guys thank you brother I want feedback literally like like the pletes hey it's great that's awesome I want to know it's not working and and that's because that's what we do that's what we do and and go rock is tenacious at that we really are and and so this rough Runner is a um is a really really cool training shoe it's it's a it's a it's a run it's got on it's on a running platform it's got on the proper heel bevel it's got an at an offset it's got the uh the right um kind of geometries and stuff but it's going to hold up it's going to hold up way different than most running shoes out there today with the super critical Foams and the stuff that breaks down quickly and things like that no disrespect to that but like you know what you trade off in lightweight and sponginess it breaks down too fragile this stuff here is going to hold up very nice love it very nice see he's he's the better salesman than the guy who doesn't know about the car right absolutely absolutely thanks yeah so so so what we did at go rock also and because I I need to say this um for this podcast and by the way honestly guy thank you so much for having me on this is awesome we have a discount for your listeners uh it's complex 20 uh so it's uh your name with the two z uh and uh if you're if you come on a go rock in complex 20 will'll give you 20% off I believe um anything you want um just buy away and uh and and and for anybody who tries it our intent literally is to make sure you're happy with the product you know uh we do uh some lifetime warranties we do uh certainly quality and and uh legitimacy warranty we have one of the best for a little small company we have one of the best customer service teams going these guys engage like all the time with as much enthusiasm as I have are they ever going to surprise you with a version that has the pump on it who knows you might do that yeah yeah so yeah so but so so go rock is uh we're we're an emerging brand and and to your point earlier Matt about like you know the sneaker Wars the Old eyes so today this is us coming in from a gorilla tactic you know like like go rock is gorilla yeah yeah gock is going to surprise a lot of people with these shoes love this this this this our CrossFit game shoe ballistic trainer and you guys have got the games the game shoes for the rough Runners and so we are the uh we just signed a big partnership deal with sponsor official footware sponsor of the Cross yeah we're in apparel for the CrossFit Games and the CrossFit uh team has been awesome to work with and um and so yeah it's a it's a whole thing listen 35 years ago you said you know you never knew that you would be talking about these 35 years later your passion is infectious I just want to say that thank leaving here just leaving here very very inspired thank you so much for giving us the time so much history you live and breathe it you could tell yeah thanks man thank you I I appreciate you guys having me really do We Appreciate You Paul okay actually one more question if I might you said you have a little bit of Irish Pride yeah we you know I got to fit this question in because Joe didn't want to ask it on sneaker sh very briefly one more anecdote one more selfish anecdote is um he recently had Conor McGregor on sneaker shopping and I was with Jake jillen Hall when jillen Hall brought up the rebok pump it was on the Conor I was I was urging Joe Joe to ask Connor whether or not as an Irishman uh he felt it was offensive to put the rebok Union Jack on his feet so frequently did was that ever an issue for you so it wasn't cuz it's not the Union Jack okay so big bra guy let him know he tried to help nak here we go the the original Reebok logo is not the union jet okay it's almost like a disjointed American flag if you will it's got like it's got the the star I mean it's it's got the the design features and the and the lines but they're not in the right place it's almost be like stars and stripes being all over the place so so my friend okay A little apologies coming out let him know he wanted I was wrong was yeah that's all I needed Conor a two-piece over the Union Jack Flag controversy what's cool is that at towards the end of my uh time at Reebok we actually did work with the UFC we made gear for them I met Conor I met um uh J Jones met like Diaz yeah uh no I didn't meet Diaz Ronda Rous he met met all kinds of like made a bunch of gear and stuff that that was very that those those people are legit beautiful awesome Paul thank you so much this has been really really exciting uh so much history everyone check out G Rook everyone you guys going to get a lot of knowledge in this episode so we can't thank you enough great thanks very much and don't forget complex 20 you heard it all right everyone this has been the complex sneakers show we hope everyone has a great weekend please like subscribe we will see you next week thank [Music] you

Channel: Complex

Views: 52,607

Keywords: Complex Sneakers Show, Sneakers Podcast, Paul Litchfield, reebok, reebok pumps, sneakerhead, complex, complex originals, sneakers, news, entertainment, culture, complex media, complex networks, sneaker shopping, goat talk, hype news, pop culture, Air Jordan 12 “Flu Game”, A Ma Maniere x Air Jordan 3, Air Jordan 5 “Black Metallic” Retro, Nina Chanel Abney x Air Jordan 3, Shaq Attaq

Id: BES9tuz0MMs

Length: 80min 7sec (4807 seconds)

Published: Fri Apr 12 2024