How Israeli Leaders Could Face Arrest Warrants - w/. Triestino Mariniello

hello it's been 129 days since the horror which is in Gulf Gaza began and we've all seen what I would regard transparently as some of the worst atrocities of the 21st century we don't know how many have been killed violent deaths um the official count is around 30,000 but that's believed to be a huge underestimate because of the number who've been buried under rubble and never identified as well as obviously deaths from the destruction of the medical system um of access to Food Water um and yet the horror is only escalating there is a planned military offensive against Rafa where the vast majority of the Palestinian population have been forcibly moved um under threat of Violence by the Israeli States now I suppose many of us following this would just think transparently huge numbers of atrocities have been committed war crimes and Israel is being investigated um for genocide by the international criminal court because of South Africa's case but separates that there is the international criminal courts it's very clear we separate them the icj is the UN courts the highest court in the world the ICC is separate from that um now there's been huge amounts of criticism of the international criminal court uh not least uh it's uh Chief prosecutor it's prosecutor Karen um khah who's actually a British uh uh lawyer now there's no better person to speak to about this than our brilliant guest today who's Trio Marino who is Professor of law at Liverpool John Moos University and he's crucially a member of the legal team representing the victims of Gaza before the international criminal court hey how you doing hi morning many thanks for having me this morning it's a huge huge on honestly um just to begin then let's just one of the reasons I've been meaning to speak to you for a while that we have I suppose a hawk which is after a huge amounts of criticism we'll come on to the background of um of Kim khah and the the criticisms against him so he's a kcy a barrister um yesterday he tweeted that he was deeply concerned about a reported bombardment reported bombardment I don't know why I mean it was a bombardment just so we're clear there and potential ground incursion by Israeli forces in Rafa he says there's an on his office has an ongoing and active investigation into the situation in Palestine it's been taken forward with the As a matter of the utmost urgency uh with a view to Bringing to Justice those responsible for Rome statute crimes all walls have rules and the laws applicable to armed conflict cannot be interpreted as to render them Hollow or devoid of meaning this has been my consistent message including from rala last year since that time I've not seen any discernable change in conduct by Israel as I've repeatedly emphasized those who do not comply with the law should not complain later when my office takes action pursuant to its mandate so he says to all those involved my office is actively investigating any crimes actively allegedly committed those who are in breach of the will be held accountable and then says he continues to call for the immediate release of the hostages this is also an represents an important focus our investigations which is completely reasonable taking hostages of course is a severe grave war crime but he also retweeted an article in The Observer newspaper uh by the journalist Simon uh tisdol which is a searing denunciation actually of the Mass Slaughter of children in Gaza it talks about the sheer number of children who've been killed who have lost their parents who've been severely named um and quotes Gideon Levy the Israeli author who I've interviewed uh accusing the Israeli Army of indulging in a violent Rampage and of Israeli Society refusing to reflect on the price it might ultimately pay in which he says Israel is erasing Generations in Gaza and its soldiers are killing children in numbers competing with the cruelest of wards to me that seems quite significant I don't know what you think because you're the you're the expert but that statement and him choosing just before that to retweet that article it seems quite significant is it yes I agree with you I think that both the statement and his retweet are very significant and they are welcome actually actions by the prosecutor and in particular the fact that he hiss to he first to acting with the hotmost urgency I think this means that at least now his office is putting in place effective investigations in relation to the situation in in Palestine and specifically in Gaza and that we could expect some development in relation to this investigation in the next uh in the next few months Maybe not immediately but in the next few months it seems that from his world this cases might concern war crimes because he specifically refers to violation of international of international humanitarian law so I think first of all it's a positive it's a welcome statement in light of this because the prosecutor is showing a commitment to faster actions on the other side I think this also shows or maybe confirms a a shift in his approach to the situation in Palestine uh because this can be technically labeled has a preventive statement preventive statement is part of the policy of the office of the prosecutor of the international criminal court which means to put perpetrators on notice to just send a message that the office is looking at alleged International crimes currently being committed and could intervene if these crimes are not being stopped um it as I was saying it's part of the office of the prosecutor policy but Karim Khan has always been very reluctant in issuing preventive statement in relation to the situation in Palestine in contrast to his predecessor the former prosecutor Fatu Ben zuda who has adopted this policy in Palestine for instance in 2018 in B suda issue a statement in relation to the forc eviction of a beding communities in the West Bank and that had that action to send to issue a preventive statement to Israel had clear the terent effect for instance the time the government announce its decision to stop this eviction just specifically mentioning the intervention of the international criminal court while can as I was saying has always been reluctant in November 2022 198 human rights organizations explicitly sent him a letter in which invited him to issue a preventive statement in relation to the escalation of violence in the West Bank and in relation to designation of Palestinian human rights groups as terrorist by the Israeli authorities but he simply ignored that call by these by the Palestinians and not only organizations so uh and actually it seems that this was not part of this policy to issue preventive statements but this is justly in cont as to what for instance he did in Ukraine because in Ukraine he issued since the beginning of the war of the Russian invasion he issued a number of preventive statements so as I was saying it's a welcome development it's a shift in his approach which shows finally that he's also adopting this policy that might have deterrent effect although I believe that at this stage in GZA uh it's not only it's not a matter of any more of preventive statement it's crucial to every specific concrete cases and uh specific request for arist Warrant or someone to appear just before I ask a bit more about him in relation to Palestine and some people again might get confused just about the international legal system because obviously people are aware of the international um court of justice and the case South Africa brought um the international criminal court is completely different so can you just explain what it is um and it's just in terms of you mention Ukraine because about over a year after Russia's invasion the ICC did Issue arrest warrants including for Vladimir Putin himself so just worth just explaining what the ICC is and how it works in that kind of way well of course uh I mean in contrast to what we can maybe read most of the times on newspapers they make a confusion between the icj and the ICC they are completely different judicial bodies the the international court of justice is judicial body of the United Nations as you correctly said while the international criminal court does not have any competence on state responsibility it deals with individual criminal responsibility on the assumptions that behind International crimes there are individuals when we say International crimes we mean in particular genocide war crimes and crimes against humanity and potentially the crime of aggression and can intervene only if a state which has jurisdiction over these crimes is unable or unwilling to prosecute alleged perpetrators of this crime so it's a so it's a court of so-called Court of of Last Resort dealing with individuals and not with with States uh it has competence in the specific context of Palestine because Palestine in 2015 has ratified the statute of the international criminal court has been admitted as a state party this has been recognized by P trial chamber decision um recently and so the court has jurisdiction over all the international crimes alleged committed on the territory of Palestine even by Israeli Nationals Israeli Israel generally argues that the code does not have competence to deal with uh with their citizens but this is not true from a legal perspective as I say that the court intervenes because Palestine has accepted has ratified the statute while in Ukraine Ukraine is not a state party to the I but Ukraine has accepted the jurisdiction of the court and that's why the court can investigate alleged International crimes committed on territory of Ukraine even bational of other countries and that's an important point because as you say lots of people might have seen that Israel doesn't accept the jurisdiction um of the IC my understanding is it's not just so you've got obviously PLO you've got fata but is it true Hamas have accepted the jurisdiction of the ICC as well or have they not well I mean Hamas is Hamas is not they're not State party not a state party so it's not up to amas to accept the jurisdiction what from a legal perspective what relevant is that the state of Palestine is uh has ratified the statute and so that's why not only ratified but also referred the situation in Palestine to the international criminal court so that's why the court has comp independently on any armed groups positions in relation to the ACC so even though we have in practice a divided entities of the West Bank in Gaza officially in international the state of Palestine encompasses both regardless of the political entities governing both are different exactly that's irrelevant for the ACC the court has competence over International crimes alleged committed in the West Bank including this Jerusalem and in GZA strep has clarified by the judges in February 2021 got you that's interesting just because again people get confused particularly obviously the icj because people go well Hamas isn't party to this the other but in this case what matters is the state of Palestine and therefore the authorities in both that's that's not relevant that that's really important and in terms of Just Karen um Karen then V I don't know I'm on first first night terms with him kin Khan who visited after the 7th of October atrocities and obviously what would expect him to investigate uh the atrocities committed on the 7th of October um but he came under huge amounts of criticism because when he visited um he did go to the occupied territories in the West Bank but he he was refused ENT to Gaza that's my first understanding but he uh refused to go to settlements um and he did meet with victims but only very briefly just explain what what the criticism was when he visited after the so I think it's important to um clarify that before October 2023 the prosecutor has been almost completely silent on the investigation in Palestine despite the investigation was open has been open since March 2021 as I said by the former prosecutor so since Karim Khan took office in June 2021 until October 29th of October 2023 the prosecutor had been almost as I said completely silent he had not put in place any effective investigation as I shown by a number of of of issues for instance uh he assigned the lowest budget to the investigation in question in Palestine uh which was the lowest just to be clear one fif of the budget uh allocated to to Ukraine for instance he never deployed any investigator no no staff investigator from his office visited Israel or or Palestine and as I said before in never issued any preventive statement so it seems that the prosecutor realized that there was an open investigation after the facts of the 7th of October in particular on the 29th of October when he visited the Raa border since that moment which was a positive development to be clear he undertook a number of actions issued a number of statements including the to Israel and Palestine that you were mentioning on one side this could appear as I said as a welcome development but at the same time he was I think also showing disturbing signals of uh continuing continuation of the policy of double standards and selectivity why I'm saying this because the prosecutor for instance immedately accepted the invitation of Israeli victims of families of the victims which to be clear it's part of this mandate and this is what everyone would expected from an international prosecutor but what what one will not expect is that until that moment he had refused to meet with Palestinian victims he had refused to meet with legal representative of Palestinian victims as well as with Palestinian human rights organization that have made a huge huge effort by cooperating with the intern criminal court so far and by providing information and evidence in this way I think he showed a sort of discrimination of victims on the basis of their nationality or ethnicity this changed as you were seeing when in ramal at the beginning of December he met with the Palestinian victims in ramala but at the end it came out that these victims were very disappointed because he had allocated just 10 minutes to meet more than 10 victims one of them them was a woman coming from Gazza who had lost 30 family members so they showed clear disappointment and they were again concerned that the prosecutor was continuing with his policy of double standard looking at the different approach that he was having in relation as I said um to Israeli victims and Palestinian Palestinian victims that's it's quite shocking just hearing that spelled out it doesn't seem to bode well it just those are choices is made which seem quite avert uh yes I mean this is as I said appears appears quite disturbing on one side as I said you would expect that's part of this mandate and this really a positive development on the other side it's really difficult to understand why at least until that moment at least until December 2023 the prosecutor has really refused any formal engagement with the Palestinian victims or Palestinian legal representative of victims and human rights organizations yeah I mean that's as I know good for meeting with Israeli victims but the double standard there seems pretty shocking but I mean this is a systemic problem isn't it um that what we're talking about is the double standards which have long been applied obviously in terms of Israel and and Palestine um because what we've seen in the past few months is shocking and as I said reasonably they are some of the worst atrocities of the 21st century we've had obviously horrible Wars we've had we've had Syria we've we' we've had um what's happened in Libya we've we've had obviously Ukraine we've uh you know with Congo Democratic Congo we've had lots of horrible atrocities but these I mean reasonably clearly rank up there um but in terms of before that there's been a long history of of other you know 2014 uh 2008 2009 um Israeli onslaughts where Human Rights Watch Amnesty International the Israeli human rights organization betm have documented two things one widespread alleged war crimes and two the failure of the Israeli state to take any measures against those who have clearly committed alleged war crimes um so what what in terms of double standards with the ICC and the whole International System what what's that meant in practice before this even happened sure uh if we talk about double standards I think please just let me uh say a few words about what I was saying before in relation to Karim Khan approach to the situation after October because as I said on one side this was a positive was a welcome initiative but on the other side as I said was Raising concern of double standards not only in relation to the engagement with victims but also when he spoke about alleged International crimes that his office was investigating he was very strong and accurate in condemning firm in condemning Hamas attacks and again that's part that's really in line with what one would expected from him but on the other side one could not fail to notice the imbalance of words and how he was on the other side approaching what was happening in Gaza or in the West Bank as well for instance in all these statements he focused a lot on non-state actors responsibility set violence but he never mentioned settlements and the policy of the states which are relevant under the r statute because these are war crimes and unless unless he says something different I mean these are still part of the investigation of his for of his office he never mentioned the killing of hundred of people by the IDF or by settlers in West Bank in as regards Gaza he never mentioned the mass killings almost 40,000 people at the moment in Gaza he never mentioned the ex the extensive destruction of Civilian houses and INF structure in the West Bank he omitted any references to the context in which this war is taking place which is the context of a Siege which was already going blockade in Gaza for the last 16 17 years and which itself May amount to a crime against humanity so that's why it's relevant under the statute of the international criminal court but as you say this is a systemic Pro problem which comes from far the international criminal court has failed in relation to the situation in Palestine since 2009 in 2009 the state of Palestine accepted the jurisdiction after the military operation in Gaza castled and after three years of preliminary examination the then prosecutor of the I the Argentinian lawyer Luis Moreno camp in these days has been very vocal on what's happening in Gaza he decided to not open an investigation to say it better he decided not to decide because he said that it was not clear what Palestine was a state and he delegated this decision to political bodies like the UN General Assembly and the IC assembly of State parties but even when the UN ass General Assembly decided in November 2022 that sorry 2012 that Palestine was a state uh to make it shorter he now went back on his decision so uh just to make real this short I will say that the biggest problem here is the exceptionalism with which the international criminal court by not only more generally Western States not all international organization with which they have treated the most serious allegation violation of international law when it comes to Israel this exceptionalism is clearly in contrast to the to the approach that the IC but also states have had in other context and here the most of course clear case is is the one in Ukraine for instance the same courot has been very Swift and prompt in the office of the prosecutor here in requesting arrest warrant against Russian Nationals while after 15 years there has never been a request of arest Warrant or summons to appear in Palestine I strongly believe that the impunity enjoyed by Israel and by the Israeli leaders political military leaders is one of the main causes of the serious violation of international law which may amount to war crimes crimes against humanity and genocide for the first this impunity has been violated by the decision of the international court of justice but this never has this has not happened in relation to international criminal international criminal tribunals so uh uh as far as this exceptionalism is ongoing as far as in particular here Western States decide to um to place Israel Above the Law above international law I don't think this will be the last war in guards or will be the last um serious violation of international law that we will have in the specific in the specific in the specific context if I Cann add this oh when sometimes the arguments used by States in order to create double standards and to place Israel above international law is that it's not a matter it's not a matter for international law here it's politics that they have to decide they have to intervene because an intervention by an international tribunal could would have an impact for instance on an alleged peace process the question of course is which is the peace process ongoing I mean we were clearly seeing the last which is not really a pce process last attempt was the so-called Trump plan to which was a plan of an annexation of Palestinian territory without the involvement of Palestine so the arguments generally used also by States I think are really uh um well bias and showing how when it comes to powerful states like in particular Israel International just Justice for Western States has to remain asymmetrical so as to be implemented only against some states but not against other states sorry to beong no no that's that's brilliant that makes that makes perfect sense I mean yeah I mean before just in terms of because I'm interested in whether that the question of impunity and and that disintegrating I mean it's just actually just following on what you just said there when I interviewed uh razy gal who is an Israeli American um associate professor of genocide and Holocaust studies in which he he described what's happening g a textbook genocide and one of the reasons he said that was the question of um intent and um the reason that's in that he said it's very rare in history for basically the leaders of a state engaged in genocide to be so open in stating that in public you know you often they they closee what they're doing in in denial humanitarian pseudo humanitarian defenses that kind of thing um it's rare for that to happen and I guess the point you're making there is that's actually to do with impunity that you basically have an Israeli leadership which quite rationally thinks it can basically get away with anything um and if you get that impunity it leads to arrogance or well is it even hubus if you know you're going to get away with it you basically the reason they speak like this the reason they say gen idal things in public is they think we're immune we're protected we're not going to suffer any consequences so we can be open and honest in what we say and in and in this you you know Western politicians and many media Outlets just took a blind eye to this rhetoric it's almost like it never happened it's not not framed their understanding of the war so is that basically that's why it's to do with impunity that's what you argu exactly that's what I was trying to say I mean when I say that impunity is one of for me one of the main causes behind you know this serious VI of international law the awareness that whatever you put in place in that specific context you are going you know to to escape Justice also because from an individual criminal responsibility perspective there is no alternative today at the international criminal court unless we look at some specific States using Universal jurisdiction and it appears that there is an ongoing case for instance in Switzerland against the Israeli president for international crimes but generally the state should here have a legal obligation to exercise their jurisdiction first of all here are Palestine and Israel Palestine is unable to prosecute for a number of reasons you know Israeli political military leaders but Israel in contrast to the rhetoric that we hear a lot by States but also by media is unwilling to uh prosecute investigate any uh political or military leader for serious violation of international law you won't find any criminal proceedings domestically in Israel for the alleged Commission of international crimes despite the fact that we are talking of one of the most over documented context for the alleged Commission of international crimes war crimes crimes against humanity and genocide we hear a lot this saying that Israel has a working judicial system that can bring to Justice perpetrators to be honest this does not reflect the position of the Human Rights group you were mentioning before even Israeli the Israeli human rights organization balem together with the Palestinian Cent for human rights in Gaza in the Gaza strep they have provide a very detailed assessment in which they show how the Israeli military justice system is put in place to White Wash war crimes in particular in relation to the great March of return in other words he put in place to Shield perpetrators of international crimes rather than to bring Justice and that's why for instance in context like the Gaza war in 2014 protective age there has not been any attempt to try political or senior leaders to the extent of my knowledge only some soldiers have been convicted for the theft of a credit card to Palestinians in the West Bank despite again the abundance of evidence not because I say it but because it's been documented also by un independent commissions of inquiry which which have established since 20078 socast military operation that Israel has put in place there are reasonable grounds to believe that Israel has committed war crimes in this specific case in in the Gaza Street what is surprising and concerning for a lawyer in particular is that when it came to Ukraine States put in place an unprecedented call for accountability they 43 States invoked the intervention of the IC they provide Ed adoc funds to the international criminal court uh they proposed including the UK the establishment of special tribunals including tribunals for the crime of aggression you know in this list of states there are several states which have formally opposed to an investigation in Palestine this is the policy of double standards believing that there are some individuals that should be brought to Justice and some victims that deserve to Justice in other words this ating perpetrators and victims on the basis of their Nation nationality or ethnicity this not a only a problem just to be clear for the victims in this context this is a problem for The credibility and legitimacy over the entire International justice system and more generally of the international law order that has been created after the end of the second world war just probably ask just in terms of where this could end up um there's the question of funding isn't there which people might not be be aware of which is the ICC needs I mean there was a previous investigation I can't remember was it into alleged us war crimes perhaps in Iraq could could have got that wrong but UK in Iraq and Us in Afghanistan and and they aband oh yeah of course that's right and they abandon that because of lack of funding basically so there is a question of funding from donor States could you explain expand why that's what that well yes I mean of course the the court cannot uh does not have the means to investigate all the international crimes alleged committed you know in all the context in which it has jurisdiction this is potentially an Universal uh Court which could have Universal jurisdiction on the basis of referrals by the security Council uh in in in Iraq the former prosecutor here decided not to continue with the investigation because it said that uh the UK so the British authorities had jurisdiction and and they were willing and able to exercise the jurisdiction over uh British national Nationals alleged responsible of war crimes in Iraq despite the fact here that there has never been any effective investigation and prosecution and despite all the pressures by the different British governments over independent commissions National commissions for the investigation in Afghanistan the first decision official decision taken by Karim was to freeze the investigation against us Nationals so member of the CIA and of the Army in relation to war crimes alleged committed in Afghanistan uh including the widespread and systematic use of torture of detes in Afghanistan we all remember the images at the time so and specifically that's correct what you say he refer to the lack of resources to uh uh freeze this investigation but then at the same time time he was requesting funds in relation to the situation in Ukraine and States provided adoc Financial contribution I think that the lack of Financial Resources is a problem for an institution like dicc but at the same time adoc Financial contributions are very problematic because they enable states to decide where the prosecutor should look at and which investigation should be prioritized while the States state parties of the SEC should just provide their contrib financial contribution to the court and then it's up to the court and in particular to the office of the prosecutor here to decide how to use these resources I think the same applies also to Palestine not only to Ukraine so uh establishing on which investigations this fund should go is a violations of the regulations of the Court Muse finally what talk to you is about something I think we'll be on people's mind throughout this which is the we we started obviously talking a lot about impunity which Israel has long enjoyed you can see that crumbling um the fact that South Africa's case um at the international court of justice and then provisional measures being issued which I mean Senor un official amongst others as said as well as clearly in in breach of well they said I think it seems as though they might be in breach of which was diplomatic speaker think uh but in any case um you know and you can already see public opinion shifting in place in in various countries which Israel has long depended on for support for weapons for example Western leaders responding to that not by doing anything I suppose with the levers they actually have uh but by their rhetoric getting a bit queasy about what about Israel's Behavior I just wonder could you see a possibility where you end up obviously people will be thinking of Benjamin Netanyahu being prosecuted and but you know the defense minister you mentioned y Gallant who implemented The Siege and uh well did two things actually he well many things but two key points I would say is he called for a Siege of everything on the basis there fighting Human animals but less remarked upon though the icg J remarked upon this in their judgment um is that he called for all restrictions to he said he'd removed all restrictions on the Israeli Defense Force which is for some reason never really commented upon so do do you see this as possible do you think is it possible one day you could end up with Israeli leaders generals Israeli soldiers who keep posting what many of us would consider to be clear war crimes on Tik Tok for Comic Amusement for Israeli domestic you know consumption is that theor could you see that happening is it possible well I think the answer is yes I think that's that's possible uh from uh What uh uh we have seen so far from the really the the evidence in relation to the uh alleged Commission of international crime specifically in Gaza but not only in the West Bank this entails the involvement of political political and Military Israeli leaders so to be honest I will be surprised to see request of arrest warrant against the so-called small fishes in this case soldiers rather than uh directing the criminal proceedings against senior and political leaders the prosecutor in a previous statement he mentioned an investigation in relation to starvation which is a war crime under the statute of the ICC depriving civilian population of essential Goods like water um fuel electricity and food and we have seen the effects of this total Siege no even premature babies in in the West in the Gaza Hospital have died because of the lack of electricity so uh in that case if this is one of the war crime is going to select I mean uh everyone would expected the um charges raised against Israeli political military in particular as you were mentioning the Minister of Defense Gand who established the the total Siege if he go going to look at genos side of course this will call into question the responsibility of those senior political leaders who have made clear genocidal statement and have shown has agreed by the uh the international court of justice a plausible genocidal intent which is generally the most difficult intent element of genocide to prove of course then the question will be whether or not this arrest warrant in case they are issued against by the judges not by the prosecutor against Israeli military and political leaders are going to implement it or not the court has issued so far a number of arrest warrant including against Putin that have not been implemented but this does not mean that they are not effective that they are not useful or that on this basis they should not be issued because they can have a number of effect also on political grounds but in particular they could be implemented uh in in the future like it all happen in relation to other international criminal trials so just to conclude this I mean I would expect action at this stage by the prosecutor he has announced with the hotmost urgency and this action I would be surprised if it did not concern Israeli political and military military leaders here it's not a matter only a matter of individual criminal responsibility of soldiers here it's a matter of the Rules of Engagement that the soldiers have received and as we can see without any restraints without any respect of basic principles of international humanitarian law so the orders to violate the principle of Distinction in other words bombing uh hospitals in general civilians and civilian objects comes from above comes from senior political military leaders and this is the ones that generally the international criminal tribunals looks at at the their responsibility the major responsible of these crimes so just finally on that I mean because as you know the ICC did Issue a resps for example against Vladimir Putin I mean he he was supposed to travel uh to South Africa to cap for a International Conference and the South African government warned that they would actually legally be obliged to arrest him so he he didn't I think has join on Zoom or something um but the point is I suppose which is yeah in theory you could get arrest warrants issued but I guess you know if they were issued this week or next week which obviously won't happen but just theoretically just you know if that happened the point is like who knows how things can shift in five or 10 years who knows how you know in the W the winds can change and you can already see Israel's impunity dissolving a bit and we don't know how things will shift in five to 10 years we live a a you know the world is in flux the global South is fluxing it flexing its muscles more than it did hence South Africa's G so you could end up with an arest and then five 10 years who knows 15 years but there could still be Justice in the future at some point theoretically that's not out the question if I can add on that but just looking at the international court of justice you know Ive heard a lot of criticism to International court of justice because its decision is not cannot be executed cannot be implemented it's legally binding but then there will be no effect I think this is not true at all we are already seeing the effects of the intervention of the international court of justice in establishing accountability for the first time since 1948 in establishing accountability for Israel uh a number of of companies are just ending their cooperation with military Israeli military companies including public institutions like in Belgium and yesterday Dutch Court decided that the Dutch government had to stop the sale of parts of jet fighters F35 to to the Netherlands so what I'm saying is that we are already seeing the fact and if the IC is also contributing to put an end to impunity in this specific context the effects will be will be even more and to be clear at this stage especially after the inter of the ACC the prosecutor cannot be silent anymore it will be a total deprivation and he would completely undermine his institution of any credibility and legitimacy I mean the The credibility in the global south of the international criminal court is already very very low when I say in global South I refer to States but Human Rights group to Civil Society how then the court could be credible in any future investigation or any future cases in part of the world and you say as you know the icj um decision has led to that effect in terms of know Belgium Netherlands in terms of preventing armed CES potentially to Israel but if the ICC then moved H you could see huge domestic pressure in States like the US in the key basically I the US is the the main protector and defender of of Israel and its impunity as the last superpow on Earth uh but you could see that would make a huge difference probably in the internal political dynamics of those States and that would put pressure on Israel because they're the ones providing weapons and diplomatic support for Isel I agree and also from a legal perspective involving third States in this case responsibility or individual criminal responsibility for aiding and abing the commission of international crimes there has already been a case in the US against Biden blink and Biden in which a federal court established that it did not have any jurisdiction but that genocide was plausible and implored the Biden Administration to stop financial and Military contribution to Israel so these are already important I think messages and after the intervention of the icj and potentially of the IC even these domestic proceedings are see are going to increase and the possibility that third States or individuals from third states are going to uh be brought to Justice I think also will be a significant development and indeed I've I've actually interviewed a lawyer who's uh leading the case um in Britain to try and take legal action against British politicians so you can see a kind of pins movement of different legal sure um of legal actions um in terms of both in terms of Israel but also the politicians in Western countries which have facilitated what's happened uh trinis that was brilliant that was so educational learned a huge amount there and I do think despite as we've discussed um the huge fa systemic failings and also you know the the credible frustrations with the prosecutor you can't it is possible to see how things could shift in a way that people could not have imagined certainly um a few months ago um so that I think is something worth people mulling over uh do share this video uh press like And subscribe but trist Dano thank you so so much that was fantastic thank you very much ran was lovely to talk with you this morning

Channel: Owen Jones

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Id: 4GrDlLNsTI4

Length: 42min 28sec (2548 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 13 2024