How Ike Led: The Principles Behind Eisenhower’s Biggest Decisions

greetings from the national archives i'm david ferriero archivist of the united states and it's my pleasure to welcome you to this virtual book talk on how ike led the principles behind eisenhower's biggest decisions with author susan eisenhower and special guest michael beschloss before we hear from our speakers i want to tell you about two upcoming online programs that you can view on the national archives youtube channel on wednesday october 21st at noon harvard law professor jack goldsmith will join author michelle paradise to discuss paradise's book last mission to tokyo the extraordinary story of the doolittle raiders and their final flight on thursday october 22nd at 1 pm we will present a panel discussion on the 100th anniversary of women winning the vote reflections on the 2020 centennial panelists will include former senator from maryland barbara mikulski kay coles james president of the heritage foundation colleen shogun senior vice president of the white house historical association and susan combs former assistant secretary u.s department of the interior this program is presented in partnership with the women's suffrage centennial commission and the 2020 women's vote centennial initiative i hope you can join us for these programs few people have made decisions as momentous as dwight d eisenhower nor has one person had to make such a varied range of them from d-day to little rock from the korean war to cold war crises from the red scare to the missile gap controversies ike was able to give our country eight years of peace and prosperity by relying on a core set of principles he sought national unity by pursuing a course he called the middleweight promoting a centrist line between concentrations of unbridled private power on one side of the road and unlimited state power on the other the national archives is proud to be the keeper of dwight eisenhower's presidential papers at the eisenhower library in abilene kansas thousands come to the library each year to research the records of his life and career and learn about ike in the museum susan eisenhower's how ike led shows us not just what a great american did but why and what we can learn from him today susan eisenhower is the ceo and chairman of the eisenhower group inc a washington d.c based consulting company founded in 1986 for more than 25 years the company has provided strategic council on business development public affairs and communications projects in addition she's also had a distinguished career as a policy analyst she is chairman emeritus of the eisenhower institute of gettysburg college where she served as the president twice eisenhower has authored hundreds of newspaper op-eds appeared frequently on national television and radio and our articles have appeared in such journals as the national academy of sciences issues in science and technology and the naval institute's proceedings she's written four books and co-authored or co-edited four other books on international security issues joining susan eisenhower in conversation about her grandfather will be presidential historian michael beschloss michael is an award-winning historian best-selling author and emmy winner his newest book is presidents of war which tells the story of the american presidents who have waged our major wars he's on the board of directors of the national archives foundation a trustee of the white house historical association and former trustee of the thomas jefferson foundation now let's hear from susan eisenhower and michael beschloss thank you for joining us today so so hi i'm michael beschloss uh and we are delighted to have with us this evening susan eisenhower who is not only dwight david eisenhower's granddaughter but has been a scholar of the eisenhower years the eisenhower presidency and i would say the eisenhower life and general ship for at least from from my own knowledge four years four decades susan we are we are honored to have you with us susan uh susan is here in washington d.c as i am and we're going to talk tonight about her brilliant new book which is called how ike led the principles behind eisenhower's biggest decisions and what it does is something i i think i've been talking to susan about this for a very long time you know there have been a lot of people who've written history about dwight eisenhower and biography but what nolan has done is gone to this life and career and distill the lessons of leadership that his example has for all of us and susan's done this and she's done this not only as an eisenhower scholar but as someone who who knew and loved her grandfather and was very close to him until he passed when she was 17 years old so i guess the obvious first question susan is how did you get the idea to write this well first of all uh michael first of all great to see you honestly um what what a treat um well as as many people uh recall uh despite the pandemic there were uh occasions to mark the 75th anniversary of the end of the war in europe this is world war ii and then uh later in the summer the end of the war in uh the far east ve day uh so that was a big thing but also recently we dedicated the eisenhower memorial in washington d.c and it seemed that it seemed to me that many americans had a might have a hazy idea of who he was a two-term president and a general but might not really know uh who he was as a person um and what it was about his leadership style that made uh him a successful five-star general um and later successful two-term president and you you'll find it all very much here in this book and i guess that the thing that was really interesting to me is you know the fact that you not only distill these lessons and you know this would be a brilliant book even if it had not been written by his granddaughter but throughout the book are little vignettes of your own relationship with him and your own memories that as we were talking a little bit offline shed light on your main message uh for instance you were asked by one of your teachers to ask some questions of your grandfather about history how did that go well um actually not so well um ike was he was a terrific grandfather and uh very much like his 1915 yearbook described him as big as life and twice as natural having said that with this broad wonderful smile he did not like people taking advantage of his grandchildren by using them as a conduit for questions in any case i was sort of hoping to impress my middle school teacher so i carried this big historic question why didn't you intervene in hungary in 1956 and i will never forget that he crossed his legs he looked rather annoyed and he said what start world war three and i thought okay i'll take that one back to my professor but you know it was fun uh michael because i also got to insert a lot of the things my father john eisenhower uh told me offline and of course he was an interested is a great great military historian right and he uh you know he knew his father so well over such an extraordinary period of time and i was really very fortunate that in the last years of his life we spent an enormous amount of time together and and he told me you know many stories that i think happened you were living in gettysburg at that point well no i i was in washington but he was on the eastern shore of maryland and it was pretty i'm sorry i thought you were talking about your grandfather oh yes uh indeed so you got to see a lot of your father sure uh yes and and he had um a very special uh one of my favorite uh things was i asked my father what do you think the uh the real uh conclusion was in the eisenhower administration about the nature of the soviet leadership and my father who was a man of few words but could usually sum it up pretty well in those few words said uh that they weren't early christian martyrs which is another way of saying of course that they weren't a a group of suicidal you know fanatics uh not to say the early christian martyrs were but there aren't many people who sign up to take their own lives in a cause and certainly the soviet leadership was not that group um so i was very fortunate to have a you know some of this uh inside perspective i think wonderful man and i should mention that ike's birthday is today he would have been 130 years old that's really with us which i wish he were with us for all sorts of reasons most of them are in this book one of the things that you write about as an important element of leadership is accountability and you write about the famous letter that he wrote before d-day for the possibility that it would end in failure in which he closes by saying if any blame or fault attaches to the attempt the fault is mine alone how important is accountability to a leader i think accountability is central um because you know accountability is the principle on which leadership rests now why it's leadership requires gaining the trust of followers or else they're not interested in following and if a leader is always voicing off responsibility to other people this has a very crushing effect on morale and and furthermore nobody wants to go into combat for instance with somebody who's not willing to live up to the fact that he has been responsible for making certain decisions i think the thing that's moving about that particular note is he had an extremely difficult decision to make about the use of airborne forces not just because the germans had moved some divisions into the area but also because the weather forecast was so dicey and and he decided that he had to use those forces because they were the linchpin of the operation but um you know he had the moral courage to go out to the airfield that night and look those men in the uh in their eyes and uh wish them well and to talk about home uh but a lot of knowing how many of them would pass exactly uh the predictions were between 50 and 70 percent of course it turns out that the numbers weren't anything like that but still he didn't know that at the time and i'm sure that it was um you know a very moving and difficult thing for him but this is what uh leadership is about it's about taking responsibility and being accountable and he was a hugely empathetic person i think beyond what people knew because he had that stoical experience exterior one of the pictures i love is i'm sure you've seen it 1952 he was speaking to i think it was a luncheon of veterans and he begins talking about the men who were killed on d-day and it's three pictures you see him begin to bite his lip and then he's obviously almost on the verge of crying and he takes the napkin and covers his face because he doesn't want to be seen yeah well that is the story i have in my book i i couldn't believe that i managed to piece together it was at the 82nd airborne division yeah that that reunion and i found two eyewitness accounts of that a congressional medal of honor the last one who was alive um uh got up and made a moving speech about this terrible decision eisenhower had to make about dropping uh airborne troops um uh for the deployment on d-day um and he spoke in such eloquent terms uh that he brought ike to tears and you know the remarkable thing about him is that i and this is what i i learned from him actually is that the kind of empathy he displayed to people is not a sign of weakness at all today in our society um any time you look like you're being quote unquote soft then this is equated with being weak and i don't think dwight eisenhower would understand that at all never no uh as a matter of fact michael i will add that one of the other reasons uh to write this book now is also the election uh that's come up i i am so worried that my students who i have a group of students at gettysburg college that they think that the atmosphere in our country has always been this way harmonious acrimonious and and that uh that there is no common ground in the rest of it and as you know because you've written marvelously on dwight eisenhower as a matter of fact i never forgot how impressed i was by you uh we've known each other a long time when you uh called me years ago and said would you ask dolores what color uh ike's raincoat was that's the kind of detail you went in you've got to explain who dolores was oh dolores was um the wife of sergeant moani who was my grandfather's african-american valet and they were the couple that looked after my grandparents after the war and for the rest of their lives and then after the passing of both my grandparents delores money came to live with me so between the two of us we were a great source of information for scholars like you and who else would know what color ice raincoat was but that's for sure she had all sorts of insights into him uh skipping around just to give you an idea people an idea of the range of the book you talk about how he confronted the holocaust in the spring of 1945 and his sensitivity was so great and his wisdom was so great that he almost alone at the time the camps were discovered in germany anticipated that half a century later there would be holocaust deniers who would say this never happened and he said make sure there's evidence of what happened here so that no one in the future could ever say that this didn't happen or it was not of this great magnitude tell a little bit about what you're telling the book about well i first of all you've described that so so very well the thing that is really moving about it to me however is that he went uh through uh this subcamp of buchenwald ordreff with both general patton and general bradley and but he uh personally insisted on seeing every nook and cranny even general patton who we all think of as a very tough forthright warrior couldn't go through all of it because he was feeling ill i mean the smell was overwhelming and bodies were piled up like cords of wood and you know he went through every bit of this but what i think is fascinating is that he described later um how how difficult it was to find the words to describe how he felt uh it must have been some uh combination of of anger incredulity horror i mean some kind of a mix and he said in his memoirs he simply didn't have words to describe that however at the very same time he can't find words to gain control over the emotions he's feeling he's thinking at the same time about 50 years from now and um we we see him doing this uh frequently um in the course of his career uh looking at an issue and saying what's that going to look like 50 years from now i i guess you you know since you've had a chance to read the book that i've got a chapter called playing the long game right i was just about to say it yeah no it's just um and also if if you notice uh he often mentions grandchildren in his speeches now i'd like to think he was referring directly to me but of course that's not the case he meant metaphorically rising generations uh and of course this is what i wish we were doing more of today no i think that that's exactly right uh how would you describe him ideologically you talked a little bit about that was it above politics or were there ideas that that that would describe him as a political person well first of all i don't have to tell you but he was a diarist and there's nothing more fun than reading these diaries sometimes because um certainly after the war uh for six and a half years he was being pursued by both republicans and democrats to run for president nobody really knew what he it was even the possibility was even suggested that he might get both nominations in 1948 well that's right and and harry truman this is a great shock for many people actually volunteered to step back to make it possible for general eisenhower to run yeah this is one of these great stories and the way history is supposed to operate because your grandfather wrote about the fact that truman offered to run with him as vice president in 1948 you know on a ticket together with eisenhower running for president and when that came out crewman said absolutely not you know they were in the middle of their feud you know i never would have made such a promise and years later probably maybe 15 years ago or something a page of the truman diary was discovered in the truman library in which truman says i offered to run for vice president with ike well i can tell you this is that i know it for a fact because i've seen the letter that he wrote eisenhower is in our family collection and if anybody's really interested in that chapter i i'm even embarrassed to say uh the the full letter um is printed in my book mrs ike which i wrote 25 years ago so uh but it is a remarkable thing in any cases as we were saying nobody knew what party he was and uh so how to describe him i would say that he's now part of an extinct species that would be a fiscal conservative and a social progressive i'm still an eisenhower republican so i don't know where that gets me these days since as i say this is an extinct species i think a lot of them became registered independents and that's what i am now um in any case uh he believed in what was called the middle way and he described his two-term presidency as the middle way uh this is a an idea where people on both sides of any issue can come into this middle way to compose their differences and to find roots towards progress the idea that you have winners and losers or even the people are losers uh is all would all be antithetical to his thinking um so i think that's the best way to describe him as somebody who was progressive um in terms of social issues but certainly very conservative uh fiscally and i'm proud to say that he balanced the budget three times in eight years and left his successor with a surplus and got pretty close on two other occasions and that's another case in which you know history operated the way it's supposed to not only in discovering documents that support you know something that was that that harry truman argued with him over later on but the idea of history is that you have a different view of a president 50 years later from the one that you may have had at the time and at the time i remember talking about your father with your father in probably 1983 and i remember him saying you know my father has a great reputation as a general at this point people don't see him as as great a president as they do as a general and i said how would he feel about that he said well you know if you argue with him about something he did as supreme commander you've got to fight from him about president he didn't feel quite so strongly but i remember thinking and saying at the time you know wait 40 years until people get to see all the diaries and the documents and they have some distance and uh in a later generation they'll appreciate what a great president really was you know you don't recognize what you had until you lose it and nowadays even among historians who are liberals and who would have scoffed at eisenhower in 1961 you know those who are alive and in this profession they're not many left right now but a vast majority now see dwight eisenhower as they should as one of the great presidents and great leaders in american history at least one of the top ten so not only is it deserved but it warms my heart to see history operating the way it should well that's right well there are a couple of reasons that uh many people didn't understand uh him as a president we could i guess that's a sounds rather uh you know um like an assertive comment i would say no no no but the uh i think it's very simple he had a different leadership style on many issues um and i think what i do in this book or at least i've tried to do i hope you agree michael is to underscore to the reader that eisenhower the general and eisenhower the president was the same person of course that he thought about a lot of issues as you would a military problem in other words you don't want to give your adversary or your enemy something they want and in the case of joseph mccarthy he wanted the limelight he wanted attention he wanted to engage the president united states around the issues that joe mccarthy wanted to talk about and eisenhower wasn't going to give that to him it just cut off the oxygen yeah that's right so we cut off the oxygen the other thing is it um really struck me about a central theme that keeps coming up is that like all good military commanders um one of the first things he'd evaluate is what he controlled and you see um when we talk about the mccarthy issue i really have to um and i say this is um somebody who has studied this period but i also had a long um long career in foreign policy and the uh what's what's very clear to me um is that um you don't uh try and uh go after things that don't have a prospect of you gaining control over them as we know uh the because we have three co-equal branches of government the president of the united states cannot censure a sitting united states senator that has to come from the senate um and at that time uh the republicans uh were in the leadership uh and joseph mccarthy was a member not only uh of the ruling party in the senate but also of the president's party so he had a much more sophisticated problem than a simple question of whether he was using the bully pulpit in a way that would be you know immensely satisfying but not not necessarily productive and he felt uh president eisenhower did that a president any great leader had to be strictly always honest and truthful how important was that to his leadership i think it was absolutely central i think it was central and uh he he had a a remarkable relationship with the american people if you think about it it's a little bit almost a fluke that he got elected president i mean he was immensely popular for sure but he had no political base right he didn't have any state he didn't have any natural um constituency that could bring with it uh big electoral college votes so the base of his place of residence was new york city at the time well that's true but i'm i'm not even sure that uh you know he could really be said to uh have come from new york i'm saying because he was in yeah yeah no that's right so uh you know this relationship with the american people let's face it you know really comes out of the war here some many people served under him and he was a victorious general so this is what he was relying on and and he knew how to husband that support because by keeping the public with him he was able to use that as leverage to get his legislative agenda passed and uh his uh you will agree that uh despite all of the criticism especially in the second term um it was remarkable the extent to which the american people stood behind uh uh eisenhower mike well if i could say one more thing too about this reevaluation you know um dwight eisenhower you know didn't leave too many um instructions uh about um you know the period after his death and to his family and i was part of those discussions he never you know had classic deathbed wishes except for one thing which was to get the archives open in abilene kansas right and you know that you've been out there they were always saying please help us get x y z declassified and you know as a family we're very proud of you know the progress they made in opening up the archives totally true and everyone who is watching and listening to us who works in the national archives or works with the national archives knows that the eisenhower library you know they practice what they preach they've always been a model for other libraries of if you're proud of the president that your library is commemorating open the evidence as quickly as possible because it'll only help well you know but i can i remember actually hearing him say this warts and all uh he thought that the american people deserve to know what went on in his administration and i think that's very moving because today we're having a hard time getting people uh to come to terms with their own record uh or to tell us what they really think and of course it's fun to read about jim hagerty now how's this everybody jim hagerty was his press secretary who was with president eisenhower for eight solid years well he hasn't had the easiest client on earth uh well i don't know about that if you're a presidential press secretary dwight eisenhower is the president you want to work for well the the thing i loved were the accounts i read while i was doing my research about what it was like to write uh press releases or speeches for eisenhower because he at one point had been a speechwriter for general douglas macarthur who took this sort of thing very seriously and um i love the idea that um you know eisenhower would be going through uh these speeches with uh and and improving on the language because according to a speechwriter he was deaf on superlatives no that's right and he once said that one of the hardest things he ever got had to get used to was sending out a letter that he hadn't written that he knew he could have done better with if he had the time and i think probably the same thing sometimes went with speeches we've got one question uh one of the questions from people who are watching and listening how would ike respond to and lead through the polarization and gridlock present and political life today well i'll tell you he would regard it as a very very serious situation to see america as divided as we are today he he once um back in 1949 and and you know this is chronicled pretty well in the book uh he was writing about you know what would come to pass in america when the extremes of the left and the streams the extremes of the right are the only voices left in the public square he was so concerned about this is sort of the basis it's not sort of it is actually the basis of of the middle way because he believed that you know the united it's stand to have a public discourse in this country that isn't followed very carefully by countries overseas so he regarded unity as a national security issue and said that any deep divisions that might emerge or had emer had uh been with them up until that time were something that needed to be addressed because it would be a welcome sight quote to an alert enemy uh and we're going into an election now that looks like it's going to be very very tricky and and you know we've basically offered the road map on how to further divide this country for anybody who's interested in doing it so i think he would address that you know head on and part of this is being an active listener bringing people who don't agree with you into the white house and making them partners in progress i don't know how you feel michael but i think it's really impressive actually that dwight eisenhower and lyndon johnson worked as well as they did together they weren't opposing parties but by today's standards it's downright extraordinary yes both when president eisenhower was president and when president johnson was president yes we had some of those tapes of lbj talking to your grandfather uh i wish he'd let your grandfather do a little bit more of the talking but that was a standard lbj it would usually be like 80 percent of lbj talking and even dwight eisenhower only 20 but that was something that was just taken for granted in those days and here we are at a time where this is not a political comment but our sitting president has zero relationship with any past president a very different time in history well and also with many people up on capitol hill which is uh regrettable well um yes i think that one of the other thing i found very moving in my research is is that uh eisenhower having failed to get the voting rights section into the 1957 civil rights act which by the way was the first piece of civil rights legislation to be passed after reconstruction in our country and the democrats who'd opposed him obviously later uh began to see the wisdom of of this they had a big struggle because they did have a southern segregationist in their midst in any case when that legislation was proposed dwight eisenhower said to john kennedy he would call the republicans and lobby for for uh president kennedy's legislation and and later encouraged johnson to go full force you know um putting a warning signal out to the republicans that if they didn't um uh support and uh enforce uh the civil rights act that he'd vote for johnson himself the point here being um that there was a kind of bipartisanship to the way uh he led and the country's future to him was more important than any specific political party as much as he deeply believed in the two-party system and the importance of bringing the republicans around and and if i could just add one line about bringing the republicans around let's not forget that the republicans who are likely to be um who were in power uh in 1952 and their standard bear robert taft were isolationists yes and i i would say uh that i think that the one thing that um has not gotten enough study is how dwight eisenhower finally reshapes the republican party from being predominantly isolationist uh to being an internationalist party uh that made actually eventually um a bipartisan consensus on foreign policy possible totally true and johnson and eisenhower were sort of the example of that tell a little bit susan has written this wonderful book which i'm sure many have read about her grandfather her grandmother maybe how how important was she to his leadership i mean how he would how would he have been a lesser leader if he had been married to someone else well i can tell you first of all eisenhower was a very very private man as a matter of fact i quote in the beginning of um the book how he writes his mother-in-law and talks about the privacy of heart and mind i think he had seen so much in that war that he couldn't put into words and and probably was still having a hard time processing um that he didn't like people who hovered and he didn't like all that so he was actually a very ind emotionally independent man in that respect um and i would say that if anybody had wanted to get into his uh deepest thoughts uh they might have been disappointed because i think he found that dealing with these things in his own way was critical to his capacity to be self-disciplined remember this is a passionate uh emotional man who according to richard nixon never made emotional decisions right um well in any case uh mamie respected that um she was not one of the hovers she once said that she during the eight years of the presidency i think this is in your book she went to the oval office four times and every single time she was invited well that's true and and and that's that's a right the thing that's even more fun is the corollary to that because ike was not allowed to go back to the executive mansion during the day without her permission now this sounds a little crazy but this is actually uh the uh behavior of an army couple okay he's got his thing she's got hers and she has just as many stars as he has in her domain so the two of them are actually remarkably well suited for each other though i must say that the hard work must have come from mamie eisenhower's side because she grew up as a a fetching debutant in denver colorado and he came from a financially challenged deeply religious household in abilene kansas so somehow these two were attracted to each other and they were a marvelous pair i have to say where mars meets venus and all the rest of it alpha male meets the quintessential female what a what a pair that's a great way of putting it now we just have a couple more minutes so i've got two more questions uh one of them is something that goes right through your whole book how important is character to leadership oh i think character to leadership is absolutely central and i know that everyone today wonders about that we're all so worried about winning and losing on our own issues but i i don't know if we've actually stood back and thought about what uh the public discourse in this country uh is doing to our kids and the rising generations and what their levels of expectations are for themselves and for others as they get into positions of power they're no real i'm not going to say that there aren't any role models of course there are um but the point is is that the discourse has deteriorated to such a degree that even well-meaning people who really don't want to have to you know operate in this fashion find themselves i hate to be using any analogies with senator mccarthy but getting down into the gutter at a at a level of discourse that um is not um not uh elevating at all um so character is built out of the capacity uh to connect with people uh to make them trust you and and to earn that trust because i i really believe that trust is a question that has to be earned every day and and when you begin to build relationships on that uh it makes a difference but people and i'll just end here people can spot a phony and without quoting abraham lincoln again about fooling people some of the time etc etc you know the american people really want the right kind of authenticity i believe um and he had that in spades uh he didn't have to uh i mean i think that um you know the character he built uh got a marvelous start with his parents and west point certainly was uh the making of this man um but we can look back um and certainly feel a sense of pride that there were people who trusted him and i i saw that in spades you know in the last year and a half of his life and the funeral train that went out to put him to rest in abilene and the people who came out under extraordinary circumstances to to see him off and that often happens with president but there was something very poignant about the people who'd also served with him in the military he had people's lives in his hands and and he uh he let them know that he cared and he did care all the way to the end of his life very evidently and as susan writes so beautifully uh last question while susan was writing this wonderful book is that she had nothing else to do she was deeply involved in the new eisenhower memorial tell a little bit about that well that's right um you know it sort of seems funny because the eisenhower memorial became so much a part of my life it was like my largest client you know and of course it wasn't a client at all it was a pro pro bono um effort to try and bring something special to this memorial um you know there was some controversy about it of course but um you know i think what the the memorial symbolized me now personally in addition to the enormous honor that it bestows on dwight eisenhower for me it's also a symbol of what it means if well-meaning good people come together and resolve their differences and compromise the memorial design and theme today uh is agreed upon by everybody to be better than it was when it was first designed the person who said it most movingly to me on countless occasions is frank gehry the designer himself interesting um and i think um the uh you might want to just say what what the evolution was well the evolution was um you know the original theme was going to be a little boy looking at his future and there still is an element of that but it's no longer the central theme um you know i ended up being perhaps a little noisier on the subject than my other siblings and this is really a sibling thing because if i live in washington my siblings regard this as my problem and so it has its ups and downs well it does have its ups and downs but no we as a family work very closely together and my father fell to the two but you know being a little boy looking at your future is not um you know enough of a reason by any means to be on um the mall in washington dc that it needed to have um some higher theme that put him in the context of his times and um alluded and spoke to his uh contribution to the nation so you know we have secretary james baker really to thank uh for working with all of us in uh coming up with an idea i had been very much attached to the idea of showing the beaches of normandy for a long time because that's a pivotal moment not only for dwight eisenhower but frankly american leadership in the world and the outcome of the war but it was secretary baker who had the brilliant idea of calling it the beaches of normandy in peacetime and this enables us to talk about this contribution of not only winning the war in europe but also going on to have eight years of peace and prosperity which people are now appreciating uh more than ever the book is how ike led the principles behind eisenhower's biggest decisions uh i i got the book i had meant to you know sort of dip into it and come back to it and take notes and i read it in one sitting and then i read it again it's absolutely captivating not only because susan tells us so much about leadership but because she tells a lot of things that we didn't know before about what it was like to be his granddaughter and what it was like to learn from him and be in his orbit in any case love talking congratulations on the book thank you very much thank you so much susan and thank you to everyone who's joining us this evening everyone please stay well thank you again thank you you

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Length: 47min 43sec (2863 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 14 2020