How I Went From Al-Qaeda Bomb Maker To British Spy | Extraordinary Lives Podcast | @LADbible

I get always ask this question you know you were a spy in subtle card in the months and the years before before 9 11. how could how could you not have seen it coming and I would say well we've seen it coming that something big is going to happen but the details were so well guarded because the al-Qaeda was split into compartments the people who were trained for that uh in a mission were trained in a secret camp that was set up for them and then they themselves in at least 14 of them 14 out of the 19 did not know that it was a suicide mission they thought it was only a hijacking wow and that's it only five [Music] we've met before obviously Eamonn but um for anyone who's listening or watching for the first time could you just introduce yourself tell me who you are okay well my name is Eamon Dean um born in Saudi Arabia Bahraini origin um grew up in Saudi Arabia as a uh a nerd someone who loves books and you know reading and I was actually training to become an Imam I wanted to become an Imam from a young age um however life always had you know got different plans and I ended up you know joining the Jihad when I was 16 in Bosnia in 1994. um after that I never looked back I ended up going from one place to another and ended up in the lap of the British intelligence Services uh four years later in 1998 after that I worked for them as a spy for eight years um up until 2006 after 2006 unfortunately I was outed by a us journalist and my cover was blown unfortunately and so I ended up working in a bank I mean what's amazing there Raymond is you've given a sort of a very concise 40 second introduction to yourself and I feel like you described about 12 lives three James Bond films so what we'll do now is we'll get back all the way to the beginning and we'll go through that in a little bit more detail um thank you for joining us again and I'm really excited to talk to you about your life um so you described growing up as a nerd in Saudi Arabia what what does that mean growing up isn't heard in Saudi Arabia well scientist Society in the 1980s was a society where young people were more concerned you know with either the cars and the new models of cars or with sports especially football so I was never interested in in cars or sports or in football so for me it was the my past time was reading books especially on history on geography I'm someone like who's fascinated by Maps I'm fascinated by countries their capitals their populations and you know you know if you come and asked me at the age of nine I could recite the capitals of the world the populations you know you know and that was hugely odd and I think in later life um maybe much later than I thought realized that maybe that was a form of autism I don't know but nonetheless when I was young I was more busy you know reading than participate painting in what was the norm what was accepted from young boys at that time what was expected I would say um to kind of take from that that you were someone that was quite a loner did you have a big group of friends who are into similar interests or were you somebody that kind of stayed away on their own locked in their room pouring over Maps the irony is I wasn't a loner because the fact that the religious establishments there in Saudi Arabia were far more inclusive than what would one would give them credit for so for someone like me I would basically end up joining a an Islamic awareness Circle in the local mosque that is where I found my friends I mean in the school I would have two or three friends who were closer and have the similar mindset out of a class of 33 but in the Islamic awareness Circle where I used to go almost all the 40 50 people who were there uh most of them my age or slightly older were all of them friends um and I think you know the fact that I was surrounded by like-minded people was a blessing and you said a minute ago that your initial intention had been to become an Imam so obviously that's a word that is familiar these days in popular culture but for anyone who might not know what it means what isn't Imam and why did you want to become one well an Imam is someone who leads the prayers in the mosque you know he would sometimes act as a counselor for in the local people he leads the congregation and prayers and funerals and someone who more or less like the local um you know person for adjudicating disputes and helping people deal with their daily uh problems um I thought this is a noble you know a profession and I want to really become one and I made the start by age nine by age 12 I started to delve deeper into Islamic theology but the age 12 was far more important for me on a personal reason because my mother passed away when I was 12. you know so that pushed me further and further towards understanding theology well that's quite deep kind of thought processes and concepts for a 12 year old at this point are you would you say you were a deeply religious child or would you say at this point it was almost more educational and and cultural was I a religious child or yes there was no question about it I was and I was deeply religious I think because of the fact that uh the fact that my father passed away at the age of four and the fact that I was supposed to be with him in the car uh uh he died in the car collision and so um and if it wasn't for A Shard of glass that I stepped on in the kitchen before he was you know supposed to leave the house and therefore I was supposed to fix my feet instead of going with him if I went with him I would have died with him wow so you know so the question of Fate was always there because I was always always asking my mom I would say you know what is fate and how do we understand faith and she would say that Faith sometimes can come in the form of something minor a minor irritation that stops you from meeting a unpleasant end so sometimes what you believe to be a minor irritation could actually be your Lifesaver so I've learned from that that there is a complicated plan in action and whoever put that complicated plan in place knows about where my life will end you know you know whether it is a year from now or 70 years from now so therefore I should be on the good side of whoever put this plan rather than on the bad side of whoever put that plan that plan so that is I think you know why from young age I understood you know that fate is what control our lives and therefore I need to understand you know who put this uh plan together for me and for everyone else there's quite a lot there that I'd like to get into a little bit deeper later on as we go through your story but I'd like to go back now to your life as it played out so you're 12 years old uh you're now moving into Theology of religion how did that end up becoming somebody who moved into what would later be described as a terrorist well one of one day and say that I want to become a terrorist I mean it doesn't happen like that you are seduced process of um and being lured into it um and you know that saying which is you know been said many times but in my case it's really true the road to hell is paved with good intentions and because I've seen this not only with me personally but with so many people around me the road to hell is paved with good intentions and I've learned long time ago that good intentions are not enough without wisdom you can this path will lead you to Hell unfortunately so how it happened I was born in the Eastern province of Saudi Arabia and grew up there you know it has a sectarian divide she hasn't sunnis and not far away from us in the 1980s you know the iran-iraq war was raging and it was actually between a you know Sunni power Iraq and the Shia power Iran and in our schools actually there was always this taunting uh between the two sides even though we were young but the sunnis supported Saddam you know the Shia supported Romania and Iran even though we were only 11 and 12 year olds and yet we were taunting each other about you know who's winning and who's losing as if it is you know to do with in a football match rather than like you know an actual War raging around my mother come from Lebanon so throughout the 80s she was worried about her family back home who were going through um a vicious Civil War that was ethnic sectarian and religious and at the same time when I was uh you know 11 Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and refugees were coming you know from Kuwait into our town and then uh half a million foreign troops including you know many Americans you know came in order to defend uh Saudi Arabia against Saddam Hussein and then to expel Saddam Hussein from Kuwait I've mentioned to you now you know three major conflicts happening around me and I'm experiencing them it is enough to politicize any child let alone I mean someone who was already into geography history and politics so for me the uh the experience you know I lived in the 1980s coupled with the fact that I was deeper into theology uh prepared me somehow for um you know accepting the fact that human conflict is actually an integral part you know of you know being a human on this planet that there will always be a push and pull between People based on many motives whether they are territorial religious um you know economic one way or another it's our destiny to fight each other am I right in thinking the the the first part of your life that saw you fighting was when you were 16 in Bosnia is that correct yes could you tell us how you got there well when the Bosnian conflict started in 1992 I was watching closely the idea that there are Muslims who are you know Europeans and for all intents and purposes after all that you know they are Slavic you know people who just converted to Islam in uh you know in the 16th century and yet they are slaughtered a mass just because of their names even though in appearance and even in DNA they are you know absolute copy of the subs and yet they were being killed for their religious identity uh for me it was shocking and also at the same time the fact that one of my teachers in school a math teacher who come from an affluent family went there and fought there and died there right so the fact that the Bosnian conflict even though it was raging you know 3000 miles away it was ever so present in my own classroom because a teacher you know his his chair is empty now because he thought that it didn't matter that he is from Saudi Arabia uh the solidarity that religious solidarity with the fellow Muslims in Bosnia was far more important and therefore he went there and he died there for them and for me I thought if he could do that why couldn't I it's just the trigger wasn't there all is needed uh for me to go was a trigger and a trigger came actually in uh September of 1994 when a friend of mine from the same circle from the Islamic Governor Circle um who was three years my senior was about to leave to Bosnia I was going to his home to say you know goodbye but in the 10 minutes I was actually walking to his home I formed my opinion I formed my mind I finally made my mind and I said to him I'm gonna going I'm gonna go with you and I remember he was saying well look I'm a 19 year old actually I had a two months training in Afghanistan in a summer you know uh two summers ago so um however why do you think that Jihad needs you you know you are a nerd you know and I I can't even you know imagine you you know carrying an AK-47 I mean so he said do you really think that Jihad needs you and I said to him no I need it and I remember that answer changed his mind and changed my life I mean he decided maybe you're right maybe you know you have the right mindset for it that you're not going there because you think it's a picnic all right you know in an adventure no actually you have the right mindset to it you said you need it it means that you know for you you see the Jihad as a cleansing and a journey of discovery I see interesting and you know what stands out to me is that you were 16 obviously your life has been exceptionally different to mine in the you know lead up to being 16 but if I had made a decision similar to that in my life even to join the military at 16. I would have had a group of people around me who probably would have tried to talk me out of it until I was a little bit older or you know classed as an adult or something like that the group of people around you at that point in your life if you said I'm going to go and join the Jihad would they have been trying to talk you out of it or was it something people would be proud of and saying you know you've made a really courageous decision like I'm just trying to get my head around how a 16 year old makes such an incredible decision and the people around that person either allow it or trying to talk you out of it or what was the process after that well I mean if I was going to tell everyone around me you know about my decision to go to the Jihad in Bosnia I mean in I would say 95 percent would have tried to talk me out of it I can tell you that in fact if I told my five older siblings that I'm going to the jihadon Bosnia I mean first of all they will lock me up in the room first get my passport and that's it that's the end of it um so the whole process was secretive wow wow so you didn't tell your siblings you didn't tell any extended family no you made a plan and from the point you decided to do it to the point that you were getting on a plane how long was that well um I would say about two weeks my God yeah and you went with your friend absolutely and two other friends who joined us from uh Riyadh from the capital of Saudi Arabia so we were for um and yeah by October of 1994 we landed in Bosnia were you scared no ironically no I was excited and at that point is that overwriting any relationships you might have with other humans so for example you've talked about your siblings you know did you feel sadness at the thought you might never see them again or did you think when they found out what you'd done you'd they'd be happy and they'd be proud of you or what was that kind of feeling like when I was at the border that's it like now I'm 45 minutes you know drive from the Bosnian border I was in Croatia um at that time near Dubrovnik and I um you know decided okay now after five days disappearance and my family has no idea where I'd gone so I'm gonna you know give my uh a home a call and I see who whoever picks up I will tell them where I'm going so I uh phoned home and my older brother picked up and he was frantic he was saying we were looking for you everywhere for two days you know you told us you're going for a a camping trip in the desert for the weekend then you will be back and when you were not back like and we were really worried and when we called the police the police said that you've left you left the country and you're going to Vienna where are you going exactly I said well currently I'm in Croatia so of course they are not idiots I mean my brothers are all University graduates and you know worldly people they traveled so when he heard Croatia he's you know he heard it on the news so many times and he said you know are you going to Bosnia you know and I said yes and then there was a moment of silence and then he said are you going to fight there so I decided like you know I don't know what came over my mind like you know I wanted to just joke with him I said no I'm going there to harvest onions what do you expect me to do like and I mean of course I'm going to fight you idiot and so you know you know he laughed nervously but then he said is there anything I could say or do that will make you change your mind and come back anything just ask for anything you know all of us like you know whatever you ask for we will give it to you just come back and I would I said to him nothing seriously I can I'm only 45 minutes from the border nothing will change my mind so after I while being silent he just said to me God be with you and he hung the phone and that's it so for anyone watching or listening that might not understand um can you explain briefly what the Bosnian conflict was and who you were fighting for and who you were fighting against well as you know and the early 1990s Yugoslavia you know a country that no longer exists you know it broke up I mean so it was a union between six countries you know so you have Montenegro you have Serbia you have Croatia Bosnia uh Slovenia and Macedonia which is now known as North Macedonia so the these countries were part of a union but then it started to break up as the Soviet Union broke up also uh Yugoslavia broke up and first it was a war between Croatia and Serbia and then it turned into then later a conflict within Bosnia when the war ended in Bosnia in 14 December of 1995. by that time I was 17 year old and for me the sadness I felt is not that we buried two friends actually so many friends uh died you know we were the volunteer unit of the mujah hadim Brigade in Bosnia at that time used to be about a thousand and Weber 300 you know uh there in Bosnia more than that and so I remember that when I was living it wasn't so so much the sadness that you know the war is over the sadness is that I survived the war wow that is the mindset at that time and I remember the listener that was my mindset at that time um so I felt a sense of failure that the mission was to die there was that a well-aimed bullet a well-aimed shell should find me but it never found me and for whatever reason I survived that war While others won the honor of being masses so you know so when I was boarding that plane from uh splitting Croatia to Roman from there to Istanbul I felt a sense of failure that you know I didn't achieve what I wanted to achieve I would say like my first Jihad experience ended and I'm still alive so I have to hop now into the next Jihad experience so I thought okay where should I go next and I remember that in the last days of the Bosnian conflict I met an Al-Qaeda militant who came to Bosnia to look for recruits and when I met him he gave me a phone number and he said don't go to the caucuses it's a waste of time go to Afghanistan the camps are reopening and there is a new kind of war that you need to be prepared for go and learn other military skills useful skills so that man his name is who would later become The Mastermind of 9 11. he gave me that phone number and he said call that phone number there will be a man called Abu zubaida now he is a famous inmate in Guantanamo um that man just tell him I sent you and he will take care of you he will send you to the right military camp for you in Afghanistan so I called him in may of 1996 and I said to him I would love to come and he said yes no problem at all you know he fixed a date with me I came into Peshawar airport and then I was transported two days later into Afghanistan um three months later when after I spent my time training there Osama Bin Laden arrived from Sudan running for his life you know into Afghanistan and started just the embryonic stages of establishing Al-Qaeda so in August of 1996 myself and 13 others and who were mostly from Saudi Arabia and from other Gulf Arab countries we went to see him this is Bin Laden yes this is Bin Laden so and goodness the first time I saw him I was like is this the famous Bin Laden because he really looked disheveled he wasn't well dressed not the same image that you see always of someone who's well dress and nice robes and you know and a turban with no crease in it no no he was really disheveled and all of the people around him and that little compound they looked really as if they are refugees oh really yeah um boxes everywhere you know suitcases everywhere it looked a very disorganized place but nonetheless the way he spoke to us was confident and he spoke to us about what I call Islamic eschatology you know he's talking about the prophecies and how he believed that his flight from Sudan to Afghanistan is the beginning of something big and that there is a prophecy about it this is the land where the Muslim armies will rise and will start their March towards the Middle East to liberate Arabia to liberate Jerusalem and to liberate Baghdad and Damascus all of these places will be liberated because of the army we are building here and you know of course like you know for me I was looking at him and I was thinking an army you're just a bunch of refugees you just arrived I mean you know how will you build an army out of this that is capable of doing all of what you are trying to achieve and Bin Laden might have looked disheveled at the time but actually he gave the impression of being able to read your mind it's incredible to sit here with you it's incredible sit here with you and think that you're someone who's met Bin Laden you know who's arguably one of the most in my lifetime has altered the course of the world and world history one of the most iconic figures and it's also interesting to hear what you say about meeting him for the first time and him seeming kind of like a bit disheveled but he was obviously a very good speaker because he could change your mind based on you know your initial thoughts of him seeming a little bit um unimpressive was he somebody at that point in time because obviously pre-911 I don't think the West would have ever heard his name but you said five years before that five years and one month before that you would you were aware of him already so was he somebody that was did he have a big reputation at that point in that world already within the jihada circles yes he was a legend already you know since his exploits in the Afghan Jihad uh conflict against the Soviets in 1987 uh what happened in the in the famous battle of jaji against a Soviet uh you know Commandos um you know 1989 and the withdrawal of the Soviet forces the 1992 fall of Kabul and the fall of the communist government there all of these events you know always Bin Laden was in the background and so when he left to Sudan in 1992 people were always you know viewing him within the jihadist circles as a legend as a veteran as a hero of that conflict and what was it what was the what could he do was it that he was a great leader was it he was a mastermind was it stretchy was it Brave you know what was the thing that people thought about him he wasn't just an administrator and a competent one at that he was also a brave man who would actually go and fight alongside his subordinates was it just the first time that you met him or did you meet him again subsequently no I met him a few times after that but most importantly it was in September of 1997 when I gave him my oath of Allegiance so that is when I joined okay the proper and they decided that well um you know we are you are not you know I remember his words to me you don't look the commando's material you know you're not going to be enough to end up in our special he said that here yeah you know but I know of a better use for you you know you know and so he sent me to a specialist Camp which was developing uh not only uh Cutting Edge new explosive um you know uh and bombing materials but also chemical weapons and biological weapons and this is where you started to fulfill your main role in Al Qaeda which was as a bomb maker well I was a trainee bomb maker let's put it this way you know the good thing is that I never built a device outside of a training setting so because you see within 11 months I changed my mind so luckily and it's because of that inevitability you see 11 months into my training you know as a bomb maker and you know into you know making poisons and chemical weapons and biological weapons uh and all of this you know especially the biological program was extremely rudimentary but their chemical weapons was far you know more sophisticated than I expected but their explosives uh making was a Cutting Edge at that time they were pushing the envelope in when it comes to you know maximizing you know what they call they you know the explosive yield you know of ordinary materials you know that was brilliant but at the 11th month in August of 1998 there was an event which basically in a shook my Consciousness all the way down to the core I mean I thought that no no I can't be part of this anymore which was the East Africa bombings you know in 1998 you know two American embassies Dar es Salaam in Tanzania and Nairobi and Kenya the American embassies they were targeted but in particular what horrified me was the attack in Nairobi itself it was a massive bomb um almost 750 kg of uh High explosives and it was loaded with shrapnels so many shrapnos thousands of them and it was designed to maximize casualties um 220 people died 12 Americans killed and the rest were innocent Kenyans somalis ugandans who were there at the wrong place at the wrong time and in addition 5 000 people were wounded 150 of them were blinded for life God because of the amount of shrapnels embedded and I remember prior to the attacks we tested the 1.3 tons device there in our camp and so you know I was aware that they were training us for massive Mega bombs and I was thinking you know three four five days after the attacks and as the information were still coming and filtering through and all the um you know uh you know all the images were coming through I remember I was asking myself one day they will deploy me you know and I will be in another Capital another city another location building a device like this now because of the religious education I had which is by the way much more than the average alcohol I remember would have so my exposure to theology is far greater than um an average Al-Qaeda or average hardest you know recruit so that was a blessing in a sense because I was asking myself since I believe in the afterlife because of all the deaths that was around me like I mean my father dying my mother dying you know you know and so for me I was asking myself one day I will stand before God and he will you know ask me the question all of these people and I will be seeing their faces in the afterlife why did you kill them what was the reason and so so for me I remember I went to ask the Mufti of al-Qaeda at that time the dean of the Sharia College you know yes there in Afghanistan and so I went to ask him I said to him and he's Egyptian I said to him you know you know I'm not doubting anything but just can you put my heart at peace here how can we justify killing that huge number of people you know you know we're talking about like you know hundreds of people who had nothing to do whatsoever you know in the conflict between us and the Americans uh not to mention the 5 000 people who are wounded and so he said that oh we have a religious justification we have what we call the tateros fatua what is that he said the human shield fatwa if the enemy is hiding behind civilians then we are allowed you know to do that we have the permission we have the religious license and the theological license to do that so I remember when I uh heard this I said uh can you tell me where I can find it and luckily he told me where to find it it is in the comprehensive works of eventamia you know a 13th century Islamic scholar but the problem is it's 37 volumes thank God I was able to find it in the volume 28 two weeks later and okay yeah you know I know I'm annoyingly inquisitive of course at that time and still to this day so so um so I went and I it opened you know uh the you know the book and I started reading the fatwa and actually what I read there you know was shocking that fatwa that religious edict actually relates to the Mongol invasions of the Muslim lands in Central Asia in the uh 11th century sorry in the 13th century in the early 13th century in the 1200s the Mongols you know had a practice at the time which is if they sack one city they take civilians as prisoners from one city and then they make them go in front of their armies to push the siege Towers towards the walls of the city they want to sack next so they were asking are we allowed to kill our fellow Muslims who are prisoners and they are coerced into pushing the enemy Siege Towers towards our walls are we allowed to do that and the answer was yes because they are dead anyway so do not add yourself to the list of the Dead now how could this be applied to what happened in Nairobi and what happened in Tanzania how can I say that the American Embassy in Nairobi was pushing Siege Towers towards Mecca a Medina that there was a life and death situation that needed to be dealt with right there right now I mean it was shocking for me that you know that my fellow Al-Qaeda members would violate you know religion this way to the point not only to a breaking point but they have broken it already was it in reading that that you felt what was happening was the Mufti was purposefully misinterpreting the text to see what he wanted to do no there was no misinterpretation it was a twisting it was a complete violation of this and I for me I felt no I can't be part of this because you see for the average jihadist you know they could waive that question for later because they say ignorance is bliss yeah it is truly like for most of them first they are ignorant of their own faith I wasn't and they are not you know you know a trainee bomb makers I was and therefore the weight you know of this question on my mind was so great that one day I will be building one of these bombs and one day I will be responsible for a wholesale of death of people who don't deserve it and I didn't like the direction you know I thought that I was being trained as a bomb maker in order to build the IEDs against tanks against you know armored vehicles not against civilian population that's not what I signed up for and so I decided to live but the bit that's interesting to me there is you had signed up as a bomb maker and you were comfortable that that would be your role but was it more that you thought that the people that would be affected by your Bonds were people who deserved it yeah I thought like it would be fighting against the military until then we were told we're gonna fight the American Military in the Middle East however this is why I always say that the moment the first atrocity that Al-Qaeda committed was the East Africa bombings and it was the first you know bombings They carried out against the Americans and I was totally against it from the beginning because I thought we will be fighting against American Military I will be preparing my bombs for to attack American bases American tanks American ID you know American armored vehicles not against you know embassies or civilians or hotels or any kind of uh civilian Target like this um I decided no this is not for me my friends were going somewhere where I can't follow anymore it's interesting because I suppose all the way back at the beginning of your journey when you were 16 what you went to do was I suppose protect people who you felt were being innocently executed for the religion and had it kind of flipped round to the point where now you were designing bombs which were going to effectively kill people who had nothing to do with it absolutely because I was told we're going to divide the military but then the First Act was to go and kill civilians in a wholesale attack I thought that that's it I can't be part of this and so I started plotting my exit so just to go back a little bit because I know it was something that we we made a video before and um something people were really quite interested in I think was the logistics of being a a bomb maker in al-Qaeda like you said there it was cutting edge uh the way it's represented in kind of Hollywood films and things like that is kind of you know benches with bits of explosive all over and shaky hands and if something goes wrong the whole area gets exploded by accident is that accurate or is it much more like a kind of factory Precision if a British or an American you know a safety expert were to enter into our lab and to see us working with chemicals in that manner they will have a heart attack right they will say that you know the level of safety regulations here are so lacking I mean there is none actually um no I mean it was just jars and jars of chemicals you know and powders and stuff like that like you know I mean and you know we are just working with rudimentary you know um equipment and it was designed like that because we are supposed to build bombs you know at the most basic level so we you know we have to be trained with the most basic of equipment the most basic um you know safety standards uh in order to be ready to do this at any uh environment um and so yeah I mean it looks as if we are in a very primitive kitchen uh mixing you know spices but in fact it is not without ever any disasters you know did people blow themselves up or poison themselves because of the lack of safety restrictions well generally no because I remember you know from the first day we uh go into this course first of all at a at each course which could last months and months and months there are only four or five people maximum you know four people to five people getting the training so the lesser the number the lesser the potential for disaster uh that's the first thing second thing is that the people are selected you know for their you know skills for their wisdom for their lack of being rash because the worst thing you know you could do is to be in a hurry when you are dealing with these chemicals and and we were always told that treat the hundredth device you know you are building as if it was your first you know never get too confident you know because you know these are angry chemicals you know and they could basically explode in your face your first mistake is your last mistake you will never live you know to tell the tale about the mistake like you make and so this is why um you know we were always careful however disasters do happen between now and then and in fact there was one disaster uh in late 1999 where two people were killed because of the fact that they were doing it the wrong way um it's not just only about what chemicals you mix also the temperatures because sometimes when you are dealing with chemicals and you are and you have a reaction and especially when you are adding let's say minimum uh you know sulfuric acid with acetone and these things and you know um you are actually raising the temperature you know the temperature rising and you hear the sounds of you know little explosions coming like an I mean and the smoke and and you always have a bucket of cold water next to you to pour over the mix just in case it's about to explode um and you are already wearing wet clothes and you use the Arabic head scarf is so wet and you are wrapping it around you know your face these are the rudimentary you know uh you know safety measures that we take but we are absolutely dealing with things that could go wrong at any moment but they put us in this situations in order to test our nerves and to make sure that actually when we are building in other locations we will have more comfortable you know settings because it's Afghanistan after all I mean basically you know if I'm doing it in Barcelona if I'm doing it let's say in London if I'm doing it in Prague I mean I will be in a better in a facility I will have better equipments I will have better chemicals and better safety environments so it you know always remember no matter how much in a better the environment just don't make that lolio into a false sense of security got it yeah I mean yeah yeah I'm based on what you say there about the uh safety restrictions being low um it's amazing to think that what you had as a kind of safety measure was a bucket of cold water when you're making a bomb it seems quite minimal but then okay so now you've decided to leave you've made a decision that actually something's triggered in you and your morals have been tested you're not happy and in some ways it mirrors the first time when you were 16 you have to make a secret mission to go somewhere that people don't want you to go to right yeah and I remember I was you know thinking about it it was September of 1998 I just two weeks ago I survived a uh a cruise missile attack by the Americans because they were retaliating you know for what happened in Nairobi and Tanzania and so I was feeling that again you know there is a divine plan here Divine Providence that saved me from uh you know a inevitable death so I decided that I have to think of something that is credible and so um in November the previous year in 1997 I was struck by both typhoid and malaria and that actually almost killed me and so I was sent to Qatar for treatment there and I remember the hospital told me that there was a problem with your liver and so we need to check and while we took care of it we need to check in a year time you have to come back so we do the scans and to make sure all is fine and there is no danger so uh you know so I thought okay I will inform you know the leadership that I might have to go to Qatar again for that medical checkup because I was told to come back in a year time and that would be late November so everyone agreed to it it seems normal and yes you can go I mean you know that's fine um just make sure you check in with our friends there and you know our Associates and so um you know and this is how I just landed in uh Qatar in November of 1998. um and my thinking was that's it I'm not coming back I remember when I was taking the flight from Peshawar airport all the way to Doha I was renouncing my oath of Allegiance you know I was in the airplane sitting in the uh in my seat and I was renouncing the oath of Allegiance and just leaving this life behind me and I was thinking that's it you know I will not see Afghanistan anymore I was actually looking at you know when we were flying and I was looking at you know the uh mountains of the hybrid pass uh you know uh I can see the in the mountains of Afghanistan you know you know from the airplane and I was thinking that's it goodbye and good riddance I didn't know that I would be coming back again and pretty much soon yeah and that is that's a bit of your story that's really unusual so how what happens then so you you fly out you think that's it I'm gone for good how do you end up getting sent back so what happened is that I landed in Doha in Qatar and I stayed with a friend for a whole night and then the next day um I was telling him about my plans and that I want to leave um but then of course a phone call comes from the Qatari intelligence Services you know telling my friend that you know the friend that you have bring him to our building you know and we don't want any trouble just you know just tell him he will be well treated um and so I was dropped there I told him it's okay do it like that I wasn't I know uh again like you know because you know when they say because they are Bedouins and you know I grew up with Bedouins all my life in Saudi Arabia so when they say uh reassure him that he will not be well he will be well treated so they mean it so I wasn't uh and they kept it there you know promised like and I mean they really treated me well uh they brought me in uh for questioning and I noticed that there were so many of them it's like I'm sitting in one chair and in front of me there's a table big long table and on the other side you know there are nine ten of them I mean it's like hey I'm being outnumbered here um and then they told me look you know to make this easy on you I don't know we know who you are we know about your associations with many people like Abu zubaida and others and we know like in which camps they went to and you know that you're a member of the car either we know a lot about you um and we were warned of your coming here um and they and then I realized from their line of questioning that they really knew a lot and that you know uh you know and I somehow guessed the reason for that as my association with Abu zubaida the current uh Guantanamo Bay inmate um and the one who was the gatekeeper you know for many jihadist organizations including al-Qaeda in Pakistan so so they said to me um look it will make it easier on you I don't know if you just tell us the truth you know so we know everything do you deny that you're a member of Al Qaeda and now I said no I don't deny anything I mean everything you said is accurate um and this is I think where they were taken aback and they were looking at each other like they were expecting you know this in a legendary resistance you know to questioning and the hostility and I'm not gonna talk and you can do your worst this kind of thing and instead basically me you know sitting there smiling at them and telling them yeah it's accurate uh so you don't deny anything oh no um okay uh that that's really that can we expected 45 minutes of you know back and forth but uh you know okay and you know why you know why a young fine man like you big member of a guide so how old are you at this point uh I was 20 at that time so the you know the main officer the one who was questioning me was asking um is there something we're missing here um you seem to be comfortable um and then you know because you're telling us you know and you're incriminating yourself you're telling us that yes you were trained there and that you know you have these associations and you seem to be comfortable telling us all about it is there something we're missing uh and I said actually on the way back I renounced my oath of Allegiance I was leaving for good and I remember they said why so I explained to them exactly how I explained to you um it's a crisis of conscience I mean I just can't you know you know for the life of me being part of an organization that will start or embark on a conflict that will see hundreds of thousands dead in many countries all over the world I've seen it even then so they said just give us few moments so they went out they switched on you know the lights from their end and they went out and you know they took their time and then they came back um and then when they were coming back they were coming to Shake in my hand and to actually give me hugs however we think it is better if you are embraced and protected by a bigger agency that belongs to a more influential country than us so we do have a list of suggestions here for you uh the French already are happy with the information that you provided they are willing to take you there is also the Americans and they are happy to take you as well as the British um so you know what what will you do and so I was thinking okay how long do I have to decide they said 30 minutes okay and I said wow how generous okay so um okay give me time and so I went you know to another office you know they gave me that office you know to have this Solitude I prayed I asked God for guidance you know please you know it was your will that I leave and now it is your will that I have to choose either of these three and I thought French no forget it I don't like the language at all I thought about the us but I just survived the cruise missile attack by them and I was thinking it's just too early you know in the day to uh extend the hand of friendship and so I thought the British however my grandfather fought for the British in Iraq he was an officer uh you know in the uh British Army in Iraq and um my father worked for the foreign office in the past and I was thinking goodness this definitely runs in the DNA somehow so I thought okay the British saw what looking I mean I thought like and I mean if it was God's will that I'd go there it is um I went back to my hosts and I told them that I think I would rather like you know go with the UK so they said excellent you know and then within 10 minutes I said your flight is tonight I said yeah but I don't have any paperwork in a Visa no no don't worry I mean everything is taken care of you will be boarded into the plane don't worry you know and so they put me into the plane and there in Heathrow I had two people coming to meet me one from my five one one from MI6 both are from counter-terrorism and at the time we are already now into December um of 1998. so they no you know they they thought that you know uh Father Christmas you know Santa you know it might sometimes reside in Afghanistan because he came from Afghanistan and you came bearing gifts like that means information information and so uh so I was debriefed there for about four hours um it it helped that both of them uh spoke good Arabic oh wow um and they were telling me that my arrival is very opportune in because both officers their counter-terrorism uh you know functions were still small I mean MI5 are still focusing on the IRA MI6 was focusing on the former Soviet Union and the counter proliferation of nuclear materials however uh terrorism from the Muslim world was something there you know functions were still small and it is expanding and more and more people are joining from other departments to beef up this department and so I was told that you came just at the right time and this is a whirlwind though yeah you've left your old life you've arrived here they've said we're not going to arrest you but you can't stay here where do you want to live now you're in the UK and now they're saying to you and we want you to go back as an undercover spy it didn't happen like this you know first there was a debriefing so the debris things were supposed to last two months lasted more than that you know several more months where I would first establish a good cover story as to why I'm in London which both the qataris and the British authorities uh did very well to actually like you know create that cover story then after that there was a question of you know what do I know who am I connected to what is my position within uh the jihadist organizations in Afghanistan uh The Roots the camps the locations the maps they were enjoying the fact that they will bring these big rolled up maps uh you know and I will be pointing at the locations of camps and safe houses and bases and uh ammunition dumps and all of that um and then the question came in March of 1999 would you consider going back to Afghanistan for us we know that we said that within six seven months we will start to normalize your life you will be able to go into a college and uh you know and we'll make sure that you graduate and all of that but you know there are always gaps in our knowledge that we need to fill so would you consider going there and I remember I said without hesitation oh yes I have no problem whatsoever um and they said ah we were going to give you a week or two to consider I said uh no I don't need a week or two to consider because I'm bored that's what I said I'm bored here you know well London is an amazing City it's just you know I don't know like I mean was I addicted to Thrill or you know or something like that but I actually felt bored so all the way through your life all the things you're talking about is what I get from it is and what's surprising to me you seem to have a willingness to put yourself into situations that I would think were terrifying and I would want to avoid at all costs and we've kind of talked about the martyrdom thing earlier but it does occur to me that you seem to be lacking a sense of self-preservation like do you think that's true do you sense feel like other people do or is it that you're excited and you're addicted to excitement I am I think sometimes I feel that my sense of Duty overrides all other considerations and I remember when I was asked to go back to Afghanistan to spy you know for the British intelligence Services I felt that it was my sense of Duty and I remember when they they asked me this question they said lucky don't you feel afraid or terrified to go back there and this time I said I know there is an element of danger or element of risk here but I will be absolute hypocrite if I was willing to sacrifice my life for the wrong side and then when I'm on the right side I become a coward and I'm not a coward so you're sent back to Al-Qaeda which is where you were but this time working on the side of the British authorities as a spy how do you get the information back to the UK well we were able to create a very good cover story that I was going to entice members of Hawkeye the senior members of al-Qaeda to work with me on Commercial Endeavor I know which was to export items of high value from Afghanistan and Northern Pakistan into Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries it worked so that enabled me at least to be you know to go into Pakistan to go into Dubai to go into Bahrain you know and then from there with the help and the protection of the British you know I would give them you know the information that they need so it was excellent because then the senior members of al-Qaeda you know they are benefiting you know financially from it you know they are using this money for their own personal use you know to get married to have families to you know have nice houses inside Afghanistan and to be independent financially from Al-Qaeda itself so they don't get just only depend on the meager salaries that Al-Qaeda is paying them and this way you know they trust me with information at least some of some of the times and I will be able to transmit that information back you know to uh mobile phone is that how you did it or computer oh no no it was unfortunately you know during that time we were not in the digital age yet right you know remember it was 1999 2000 2001 you know the mobile phones had no cameras you know you can barely send the text on an Ericsson or a Motorola I mean you know oh my goodness I feel old now he's just mentioning this in the devices and you know so and computers like in a cannot be trusted and I can't carry a camera with me a camera is a death sentence right you know so therefore I have to rely purely on my mind you know just memorizing everything around me you know looking at the locations you know Finding geographical features where I can pinpoint on maps and then when I finally meet them I will transmit that information one of the most important you know aspects of my training before I was sent back was never ask questions wow never ask questions let the information come to you but do not seek information suspicious yeah because otherwise you will raise suspicion and at the same time just do not show any interest in anything that doesn't concern you yes it's a trade-off you know and this is one of the reasons why for example I get always ask this question you know you wear a spy inside in the months and the years before before 9 11. could how could you not have seen it coming and I would say well we've seen it coming that something big is going to happen but the details were so well guarded because the al-Qaeda was split into compartments the people who were trained for that uh in a mission were trained in a secret camp that was set up for them and then they themselves in at least 14 of them 14 out of the 19 did not know that it was a suicide mission they thought it was only a hijacking wow and that's it only five well even to the point when they were taking part in the mission absolutely didn't know Jesus Christ they didn't know they were actually crashing into buildings only five you know four pilots and one of the leaders of the hijackers and the uh the executive Council of al-Qaeda 20 of them there are 20 including Bin Laden and his Deputy abohafs so there are 20 only eight until the last 48 hours only eight new including Bin Laden and his Deputy about 9 11 and the details and 12 members of the executive council did not know and even when they were informed they were not informed about the exact details 48 hours before it happened so even if I was an exec in a member of the executive Council which means that I will be 40 years age by by then I I should be 40 a year old at that time um they would have been told only very few details and only 48 hours before the operation so you said there was an awareness that something big was happening yeah it was just it wasn't clear what that was going to be exactly so would you in your role would you have been feeding back the information when you could that there's something being planned we're not clear when exactly but yes because I was tasked with insert the mission although it was absolutely in the periphery it is to inform four people I know here in the UK to leave the UK as soon as possible and to go to Afghanistan before the end of August that's it that was my part in it if they told me we need you to try to transfer money to someone in America then the the entire plot would have unraveled but unfortunately you know that task would have been given to someone else it all depends on the right time at the right place you see in order to have foiled 911 you need 20 spies not just only one and said was there a suspicion of spies within Al-Qaeda like always even before you'd been one where you were you were aware that there was a constant suspicion of absolutely always and there were always random checks here and there and especially like I mean you know I myself started to attract attention more and more because I am traveling you know all the time and this is why when people come and confront me about my constant travels I say oh go to uh Commander a commander B Commander C who however like there um I'm doing all of this for them ah okay no problem so you see the cover story about commercial work and Commercial uh exports like really helped otherwise I could have been in deep trouble or I will be there in Afghanistan and that black hole of information for months and months unable to transmit anything were there any times when you were almost exposed when you felt like you were very much in danger or could have been killed for being found out as a spy no never never I mean there was of course one random check uh on me like I mean where I was in the kitchen one day lucky I mean because and funny enough it was a kitchen because the kitchen is where you are feeling you know safe and secure and you don't expect any nasty surprises um you know because all of us have to do either cooking duties cleaning duties everyone from the top Commander to the um you know foot soldier we all have to do our duties and so I was in the kitchen and then you know I noticed that people are leaving the kitchen you know and I was alone and then you know someone behind me you know putting a pistol to the back of my you know you know to my back to my spine like I felt really the cold end of the pistol there I mean uh because it was November it was really cold and then I turned around and I saw that it's one of my friends in the camp and I was you know looking at him angry I was saying lower your weapon right now you know because he was telling me before that I know who you are I know who you're working for it's over the game is over it's done we know who you work for now thank God thank God for the British training because they alerted me to this before they told me that when someone comes to you and say you know we know who you work for game over that's it it's over you know you have to confess you know then they are bluffing because they don't know who you work for it could be anyone it could be the Saudis could be the bahrainis could be the Egyptians it could be the jordanians it could be the Russians it could be the Americans the Israelis whoever so you know if they have no idea who you work for it means they have no evidence against you so stand your ground immediately you know and do not volunteer any information so this is why when he put the pistol at the back of my at my back and told me that in those words and trying to be menacing I know who you work for if he said the British yeah game is over but he didn't say he said I know who you work for you know we know you're a spy you know that's it game over so I just looked back to him and I was expressing my anger that this is a sick joke and I'm not going to tolerate it I was thinking it was a joke um and you know when he was taken aback by the level of anger I was having at him and telling him to lower his weapon and I'm not going to tolerate this and I will report it to the camp Commander he was telling me actually the camp Commander asked me to check on you and others actually because you are perfect yeah The Travelers you know those who travel a lot like you know they are they need to be shaken down between now and then I'm sorry brother it's nothing personal I was just told to do it was my duty you know no it's okay it's fine like you know I don't even doubt you you know so but it's a random check so it had to be done I mean what I'd like to get onto now is you've been back in there you've been a spy for how long how long will you spy for I spent seven and a half years seven and a half oh my God I didn't realize it was that long actually so seven and a half years as a spy and then what happened that exposed you was a spy and meant you had to stop well in my life as a normal human being I remember it was June of 2006 and I've already had many tours in Afghanistan in the gulf and Lebanon and Australia and Europe like I mean so by that time I was you know and here in the UK I was already weary and I said like I mean I've never been in a normal holiday like a normal human being you know is it possible to go to Paris I've never been there um and my Handler said yeah of course for God's sake yes please do um sorry we neglected that aspect you know so yeah you can so I was in Paris and then out of nowhere while I was on the Riverboat you know having a look at the city uh I received a text message you know from an associate of mine within Al-Qaeda and the gulf and Bahrain and he was telling me you know uh brother there is a spy Among Us go into hiding read the Time magazine article they are talking about the book is about to come go and read it and so I was thinking that's worrying but then the you know I'm in the middle of a boat I can't just jump into the river I mean I waited until um you know we arrived at docking um he left the boat it was hotel de Ville I was going to find an intimate Cafe yes for the Millennials who are watching this internet cafes are something that existed you know in the past in order to go and find information so so I went to internet cafe I uh you know switched on the uh you know the the Internet Explorer I remember at that time you remember the a symbol and all of that um went into the Time Magazine website and the first thing there it is an article advertising for a book that is about to come in a week time and this article says the U.S had a brilliant spy in sadokaid and I was thinking ah it's okay like they're talking about the U.S spy not the British one and then I started reading and the more I read the more I felt that you know my heart was sinking all the way down to my stomach uh because it it really talked about me about operations that I was involved in oh my God yeah you know whether it is a chemical attack plans in New York Subway uh you know a massive attack that was planned against the uh U.S Sailors of the fifth Fleet in Bahrain um you know and the outing of an important leader in Saudi Arabia and which led to his death you know so all of these were part of uh operations that I was the common denominator you know among them and so and then they decided to give me my real name even you know my first real name the birth name I had I was in the article in the article because he said let's find a name for him let's call him Ali you know and so I was thinking out of 4 000 bloody names in Arabic couldn't you find any any other name except Ali and then you identify me as having a Bahraini Heritage I mean you might as well put a Crosshair on me you know and so I how did this happen it was a leak you know from the office of the Vice President of the United States you know to this journalist you know in the US ronstoskind who wrote a book called the one percent doctor on 46 pages of that book were talking about me and my in the operations I was um involved in in terms of intelligence gathering on behalf of the British services but you know they have the audacity to claim that it was American operations well in fact I was working for the British talk about being a vassal state area so I know so um I read all of this so I went uh to the nearest uh you know phone booth again for the Millennials in these are boxes where phones used to be there you put coins and you so I I called you know the emergency line it was Sunday so I called the emergency line you know to MI6 you know uh and I said you know please get you know my Handler his name is so and so you know to call me on my mobile phone as soon as possible it's an emergency I'm in Paris five minutes later he was on the phone and I said to him go and read the Time Magazine website please come back to me and tell me what to do you know give me instructions he came back to me you know and he was using lots of F words about the situation and he was saying don't worry just you know come back to Waterloo at that time it was the Waterloo Station you know when we come back from garden Northern Paris so come back to Waterloo we'll be waiting for you and we are already sending a car now to your apartment in order to clear it clean it take everything you know so you will not go back there we will take you somewhere else in England and I arrived back you know so both my handlers from MI5 and MI6 were waiting for me um they gave me hugs and assurances you know don't worry this isn't the end we will take care of you you know we don't know how this has happened and already phones are ringing into you know DC trying to understand what really happened here uh it's a major league here so um so they took me to Oxford you know into the Randolph Hotel just next to the ashmolean museum there I spent uh several days there in a while you know people were coming to Oxford every day to you know from both organizations to assure me uh while assuring me that they will deal with it they're also telling me that my spying Days Are Over You know so and I guess at that moment you were out yeah that's it you know I'm exposed the question is you know now what to do and then it was decided in the end that there was a senior member of the organization of MI6 is leaving is retiring and he is going to take up a a senior Post in one of the global Banks and he said I want him to come with me he will be good on counter-terrorism finance he understands the aspects of the terrorism finance and the workings of their Banking and Charities and hawala systems and the money men and the exchanges he knows so I need them with me so and that's how it was decided I'm exchanging one form of terrorism to another being a banker is you know I think it's it's in the same moral equivalence of being a bomb maker I think oh my god well I need the audience to draw their own uh decisions on that right Eamon the problem with talking to you is you're so fascinating you've just got so much so many interesting stories that we've gone over and there's three questions I want to ask you so the first question do you still look over your shoulder the answer is yes and no in a sense that yes I have to be careful but also no because the security measures taken in order to safeguard myself and my family you know are so extensive you know that more or less I feel much more secure than I used to be for example three four years ago a lot of the stuff that happened in your life was inspired initially by religion for good and for bad are you still religious yes I mean everything that I've seen in my life yeah you have to be religious but in what sense ritualistic no spiritualistic yes there's a talking to you is so interesting because I've met people before who've been on undercover I've met people who've served in the military in different positions and all of them seem to have had quite a sort of heavy load put onto their conscious and their soul there's kind of an element to you that I find just fascinating in a sense that you seem able to process and deal with very severe situations in a way that it doesn't seem to me to have left an emotional toll on you and maybe it's because you've been you know trained in interviews trained in how to speak and you're good at hiding that or passing it away but how do you feel as a person all the things you've gone through the the aspects of fear seeing people killed being responsible for deaths to things like that stay with you or are you able to just kind of pass them on they stay with you but you know how to process them why because do you remember at the beginning I told you about the divine plan it's all part of a divine plan and that's why I have no regrets and whatever happened to other people is all part of a divine plan it's not my part to question it it's just you go with the flow you go with the flow brilliant and the final question before we finish what's next for you well I mean what's next for me I mean I've been living you know in the UK on and off for almost 24 years now and you know like when they say that when you fight for people you become part of them somehow this um concept been challenged so much over the past year because you know over the past year I started question whether I belong here whether I belonging to the you know in the UK or not whether I belong in Europe if even to begin with and I think this is all due to the fact that it's different when you are a single person with no family but then when you have a family and you have kids and these kids are going into schools you know how then you know their sense of belonging will be developing I remember I insisted that you know I want my children to grow up here because that's the only citizenship they have that's the only nationality they have you know as UK citizens um but then the events of the past year you know made me question whether actually we as a family whether my kids you know belong here because my daughter goes to a school in Edinburgh and you know for girls and that School along with parents who were there you know did not look kindly on the role I played in ensuring the security of this country for you know seven and a half and eight years that I worked for the UK intelligence services and then the 12 years I worked in the banking sector you know identifying tracking and disrupting terrorism Finance they looked at it as if you're on a risk you know you shouldn't be you know here your daughter shouldn't be in school with us and with our daughters and so they did their best you know over a year to try to really like you know I mean make us feel and welcome to the point where they said that's a head teacher of that school telling you know me don't expect a welcome in Scotland God and they are telling us like you know why don't you consider leaving the country for the well-being of your kids because you will never be accepted here so I thought you know what let's pack and leave because the question of whether we belong or not has been settled in my opinion yeah unfortunately and where have you decided on Arabia going back yes well look Eamonn it's the second time we've met you it's just as fascinating to hear the stories the second time is the first and um thank you so much for your time and coming in again wish you and your family the best of luck with the new adventures and uh thank you so much thank you love yourself much appreciated thank you [Music] thank you [Music] so that was Eamon Dean uh who was an ex-al-qaeda terrorist turned MI5 mr6 spy I'm joined now by the director of the episode Josh I mean that was a big episode what man what an incredible life yeah um I think we could have done the whole series just on his stages of his of his life um what was your biggest takeaway from what is that now why I find him such an incredible character because we've talked to other people who've done I mean not all those things I mean even at the end he talked about how he went into banking which is a whole career for some people but um it's the coolness the calm collectedness you know the other people that we talk to that have done similar things quite often have long lasting mental impact yes you feel it on them that's a nice way to describe it where's with amen you know I kind of came back to him a couple of times through the discussion and just sort of said you just don't seem to have an impact I think that's obviously what served him so well that ability to just mold into the next thing um and we were talking about like he's just completely switched on the drop of a coin from sides and has done that throughout and I think that is quite a rare thing to be able to do so well and then to put yourself in the risk that he did turning as a spy it on your own completely but doing the same life you need that ability just to focus in on why you're there I think there was another there was you know because he comes across as such an unassuming gentle gentle yeah friendly man and there was a comment from the first video we did with him on YouTube that I always remember uh reading which was did you need a reinforced chair for this episode due to the size of this guy's balls and it's sort of a bit of a throwaway colors comment but I genuinely just even again speaking to him then I was just thinking I couldn't do what he did either side you know yeah what did you think bryony I what struck me was his really calm energy despite everything that he has been through and what he was describing which is experiences that none of us can even possibly imagine and he said it with such Clarity and calmness that he must have something really deep inside him that allows him to have that kind of assurance maybe religion maybe the religious yeah I was thinking that but then at 16 to go and choose to do that I almost felt like by the end of it I thought religion would be a big part of it but how quickly he dropped his sort of deep held extremist beliefs when he switched or to be fair to him when he saw what the results of his actions and al-qaeda's were and then you know and the other bit was when he was in London and he didn't become a spy straight away and get sent back he just basically said I was bored in London so I think that 16 year old self and the going back spot I think he sought out that adventure and I think that was probably more powerful personality trait in defining his life than religion it was a bit where he was talking about everything he'd gone through and he'd come out of it and he decided to renounce everything and then he was back and they picked him up from his friends and was saying don't worry we're not going to hurt you and we're going to actually figure it out and then I said how old are you at this point he said 1920. it's just like my God and again yeah it's not on him he's not carrying this stuff he feels quite just like a normal Bank clerk when he walks in um what did you both take away from it I guess what I took from it is careful how sure you are that you're right at the moment in the world everything's getting increasingly polarized even in the UK politics you know it's it's not it doesn't feel like anymore it's kind of a big discussion about what's the best way to help this country it feels more like if I'm this side it means I hate your side and it was interesting to me when he was talking about you know it's it's a cliche which he said but he said the road to hell is paved with good intentions and he said without wisdom it's not enough well it's a very interesting point from someone who's fought on two opposing sides of a war yeah and it's like the biggest International issue of Our Generation what he's been at the Forefront of and you know I do kind of go you know his remorse of being at Al-Qaeda being a bomb maker and then oh it's all different now he saw what a bomb could do and I kind of went into that a bit prejudiced if you like like I was like too let's probably quiz that a little bit because if you're making bombs they're going to use something but then he was like we're against America I thought we were going to go for military targets and that's what my work was and if they're the evil enemy which is what Al-Qaeda that is the philosophy so it kind of he did have an answer for that a bit and then when he saw in the East Africa um attacks that um you know hundreds of civilians were collateral damage and he couldn't live with that I kind of I believed him and then it's very brave to go these are what I've dedicated my life to but I'm gonna I'm gonna leave and then to then fight fight them in such a risky and covert ways it is admirable and uh yeah the amount of impact he's had positively in protecting people from being an undercover spy it's probably impossible to fully fully gauge Interpol shop a flight um interpol on my case um tracked all my flights they knew what I was doing and yes it's the biggest pharmaceutical bust in Spanish history and still is a quarter of a million pills and 50 000 amules and that's just you yeah right okay so what happens next

Channel: LADbible TV

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Keywords: the lad bible, lad bible, lad, bible, videos, viral videos, viral, documentaries, exclusives, interviews, terrorist, spy, al-qaeda, mi-6, mi-5, undercover spy, osama bin laden, 9/11, bomb making, Afghanistan, Qatar, UK spy, saudi arabia, CIA, USA spy, vodcast, podcast, minutes with, documentary podcast

Id: a4OiFSZNBUM

Length: 81min 5sec (4865 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 05 2022