How Good are Stuns and Marks?

hey guys built a robot here bring in a guide tips and tricks video this time I'm taking a moment to respond to all of y'all giving me feedback on the class class review guides so first of all thank you all very much for watching them I loved the amount of comments and discussion and insight and shared experiences and all that was super cool I love that you guys super got super involved with them gave me a ton of feedback on them it was super fun to both rate them to read through the comments and also to share them with you guys for a large part there was a lot of pretty cool pretty interesting conversation there were some hating and whatnot and some people die hard defending various classes they loved they got [ __ ] on and things like that but I could take all that that stuff that's all pretty cool I had a really good good time with that I did want to take some time to address some of the issues that have arisen in that some of them are very good some of them were kind of miscommunications between me and you guys and some others are stuff I didn't do very clear they don't want to clear up so let's start with the the first set of this stuff so there were some mistakes made in those I'm sorry I am human those will happen there were a lot of them were caught and those are great it's great that you guys caught them but a couple that I wanted to point out specifically it turns out I was using an older version of the the stats of the characters in particular most of the must remain the same but there were some things like hit points that got changed around us in the classes I think in particular how master in the abomination so some of those numbers aren't going to be exactly accurate for them which is too bad because I was really excited about that but it turns out when I did that data mining which was ages and ages ago and pulled it all off the wiki's and plug them into my spreadsheets I haven't updated that for some of the patches which means some of that data is slightly out of date I apologize for that if and when I get around to updating my spreadsheet I will post the updated spreadsheet in the description of this video I don't know when or if that will be but if you want to do that I will post that there second thing a lot of you guys wanted to know about itemization and party comps that i recommended for these classes that just wasn't possible time wise to fit into most of these videos i wanted to keep them reasonable length as you guys are going to see as i released a couple more videos couple more darkest dungeon guide videos it's very easy to make them into extremely long videos because there's a ton of information to cover I just didn't want to do that for the guide review videos so boss lots of parties are good lots of itemization choices are good we will do some item based guides at some point but I didn't really want to get into with those so I apologize for that but I just really didn't fit into the Vista format of those videos the third thing I wanted to talk about was I did not mention a lot of times the relative accuracy of skills except for some exceptions I did point out how low accuracy the leprous skills were and I didn't do that for a lot of other classes for example the árboles has very high accuracy abilities especially sniper shot has very very high base accuracy compared to other other abilities of the same level and the vestal abilities are fairly low accuracy as are the occult disabilities if you look at these all at the max level for those skills so there are some differences in classes between the base accuracy of some of their skills and that kind of got lost again in those and that stuff so those are kind of and then there's some minor very minor things like mysticism of the flagellants lower level when he hits zero like stress healing and buffing himself and stuff like that but a lot of stuff that mostly didn't that I'm not too worried about and mostly had low impact I think I got the gist of most of the characters I'm pretty pleased with how most of those guys turned out but with those low hanging fruit out of the way I do want to talk about kind of two major sets of issues that were brought up that I want to address here the first of these is stuns versus moves and basically in multiple status effects when they're applied to an ability and the second of those is going to be marks so let's let's start with stuns versus versus moves so a lot of people are like man we love using the occultist plus the leper you or the bounty hunter plus the leper you just pull the guy forward and you smack on with the leper and it works just as good as anything else um there's a couple problems about the first is and this was addressed in the guide the the movement element of that if you if you if you attack a target let's say it takes two hits to kill it right and that even that is the leopard doesn't do double the damage to the next class but let's say you know but then movement skills don't do zero damage but they tend to do minus 50 or minus 70 I can't remember so it is right now I think it's minus 50 on a movement scale minus 50 damage mod or - I don't have that trained up but let's assume - 67 basically you do a lot less damage with a movement skill but let's say that the leper did 150 percent damage of a normal hero so in other words let's say the damage was equal between a movement skill plus a leper hip compared to two ranged attacks what are the number of roles you have to make remember we want consistency here we want these enemies to die reliably well in the double attacks you have to hit the target which is a check against your accuracy and then you have to hit the target again which is a check against your accuracy so it's two roles it's two roles that are making with the occultist moving it and the leper hitting it you have to make at a minimum four roles the first role is your occultist has to go before your leper the second role is you have to hit the target with the occultist moves with the occultist skill this is hit it as the accuracy roll the third role is you have to hit the movement element of that so it has to not resist your move and the fourth role is the leper that has to hit it so we're already two more roles there than we needed otherwise so we're already way less consistent and most of times it calls us to go ahead at the leper that's true and it's even more true if you don't speed up the leper and you do speed up the occultist but that has its own problems they have problems being that if you have to fast damage dealers there's a decent percentage of the time where your damage dealers are going ahead of a target the target never acts where if you have an occultist and a leper the lepers really slowing the occultus is fairly fast a lot of the times the opponent gets to act in between your compass and your leper which means that a [ __ ] can happen like what your leopard can get stunned for example or your leper can get pushed back or the target itself can use some sort of ability that moves it back or targets around your target we use sorts of abilities that move it forward that might push it out of range so for example if I'm turn 1 to start the action your cultus uses his diamond puller whatever it's called and pulls the guy forward and the unit has like a stabbing attack that moves it back and the guy behind it has like a stumbling scratch that moves it forward and suddenly he's out of range the leper anyways there's all sorts of stuff that can happen in between it just makes it a lot less consistent skill and that's not true of stunning stunning doesn't have all the stuff that can happen in between yes stunning has an additional roll it has the accuracy roll plus the stun roll but that's it those are the only rolls in there there's no relative speed stuff yes your speed your the comparison of yours the speed roll of your stunner compared to the speed roll the opponent is meaningful but there's no coordinated speed roll your stunner doesn't have to go ahead of your other classes to make that still a useful ability the stun is always going to be useful unless everything has Sun resist at the very end of the site basically you have the additional stuff for that oh oh yeah also additionally the stun is going to be useful even if the the target but the character you stun has some sort of movement effect or the guys around enough some sort of movement effect the stun is still going to be useful once you've hit him with that stun he's not going to be to do anything to you and then finally the itemization is different between stun and movements so there's really kind of I think just two classes with hostile movement abilities right I mean the men-at-arms does a knock-back but if we're looking at coordinating a guy you can only hit the front ranks with targets that will only that they have to move guys to the front ranks you can kind of sometimes do that with knock-back if you push position two into position three then you can attack position the new position too because who was position three of the lever that's something I suppose so maybe we include man-at-arms here in large part the the movement skills then our men-at-arms bounty hunter and occultist and there isn't really good itemization for movement stuff the men-at-arms oh the bounty hunter in particular does have some movement affecting items that you can get but they tend not to be very good compared especially compared to what else the bounty hunter wants to be itemized with the occultist has one item like that that's okay maybe - I think there's a cauldron so the cauldron it doesn't have move chanson anyway so I guess that's not one we move it back down to one the occultist has something called the vial of sand this is a decent occultus item if you're going to have the fill occultist in position - this is our position one then BioSand is ok it has debuff stun and move and you might use a stun and move with your ability in position - you can cast a human's pool yeah but if you're in position three which is a pretty standard occultist position that item isn't particularly good so this is one of the this is one and this is one of the few items that's decent that also has move skill chance on it and even that isn't a guarantee and most of your targets to have with that amount of move skill and the bounty hunter is even worse the Bounty Hunter basically has no good move skills yes this I'm noting over this is those have 50% moose coats son if this item is garbage this item is really bad in general so your if you take an item like this which is going to maximize the chance that your mood skills don't get resisted you're giving up a good item to do that item that you might otherwise need so there isn't that consistency that there isn't stunning where stunning is always good it's one of the best abilities in the game so itemizing for stunning make some serious sense you don't have to itemize something besides something although it can be nice when you get something else besides stuffing but uh because sons are always going to be valuable whereas moves only sometimes going to be valuable and it's often hard to find an item that has both moves skill and something else on it other words atomization is harder for move skill abilities than it is for stun skill abilities I want to add you know this is something that I feel like some of you guys lost when you watch the review videos I'm not telling you how to play this game in the sense that I'm not saying you must do this this is the only way that works what happened though on higher difficulties it will get harder and harder to other things I'm telling you what in my opinion are the best ways to play the ways that are the most effective ways the ways that are going to make you lose the least you're welcome to make anything you want work in this game and the easier the difficulty the more likely it is something totally off-the-wall is going to work I regularly play challenge runs of this from my channel where I am doing things that are deliberately less good specifically to see if we can make something cool work or so have something some unusual set of abilities in the game and you guys are more than welcome to that too so when I tell you the lepers that doesn't mean you got to stop playing with it doesn't mean you don't have to enjoy the leper I like some of the bad characters in this game it's just I acknowledge that they're bad character simultaneously and if I'm going to be using their stuff I acknowledge that I'm doing this instead of using something better and most times I'm not comfortable playing that way unless I have a reason to do that like a challenge right so again don't don't don't take it personally that I don't like the leper even if he's your favorite character I just don't think he's a very good character all right so that's tons vs moves hopefully that helps clear that up a little bit because there was some stuff of well stun has to kill techs as well yeah but hey you're going to itemize your stuns and be the stun is always useful always whereas the other stuff is pretty much not true for the for the movement stuff okay but let's get to the third topic because this was one that was fairly interesting there was a lot of discussion about and that is marks I don't think I did a very good job of explaining marks in these videos so the first thing is the mark itself cannot be resisted the mark can be dodged or you can miss with the mark but it can't be resisted so that means to apply a mark there's only one check not two checks I think I may have said in one of the videos there's two checks or at least imply that we're two checks for this so if I cast a mark on a target it can dodge the skill itself or I can miss which is basically the same role if it's an accuracy role there is an accuracy role on that and there is a resist element to the effect of the mark could be that - protection or - dodge but the mark itself can't be resistant if I succeed on the accuracy role the mark hits the target okay so that's the first thing so let's get that get them out of there and there are some costs associated with bringing marks but I don't think a lot of people mentioned there's some opportunity cost associated bringing mark to have the mark skill on you have to turn another skill on the another skill off rather so so something like the ARB list well this is what I would normally run an arbor list if I want to also run snipers mark then I have to turn off one of these skills and all of these skills in my opinion are extremely useful it's a little bit easier with other classes especially depending on their position so these are the four mark classes by the way here how master also has an amazing set of skills I would prefer to run something it depending on my position I would rather run this in position three four or I'd run that in position two and if I wasn't going to be using this I might want to run how Ontario if I tend home Terry's okay in some situations but if we're going to run target with so we have to give up one of our core abilities in the how master and that's either we're going to give up stress healing which is one of the hell masters well how much is on one three classes I can one two three classes I can do it well we have to give up the stun or we have to give up the self heal or the guard and all of these are absolutely phenomenal abilities so it becomes very very hard to fit a mark in on some of these characters particularly the árboles in the helm master I don't really want to bring marked on how master and árboles because there's so many better abilities to bring it's a little bit easier on the bounty hunter the bounty hunter is pretty happy with the set of skills like this if he's in position to or if he's in position one a set of skills like this so you can bring a mark on a bounty hunter it's a little bit easier to fit in it's a little bit easier to fit in an occultist your running position one or two occultist something like this is fine and if you in position three or four occultists particularly position three occultists you're going to be fine with doing something like that in general so it is possible to get some marks in but getting four marks on four characters starts to be really hard to do without sacrificing some pretty core skills in other words there's a high cost for turning on a mark compared to not turning on mark so we really better hope that these marks are giving us the benefit to make up for giving that up and I don't think that was mentioned in there there's another cost of marks too even on the character as far as easy marks are not the same value of other skills so let's take a look at vulnerability hex in the occultist this is probably the best example I could find of this right vulnerability hex has a 7% two crit chance that's a pretty damn good at crit chance for a mark ability as well as just any ability honestly plus seven is pretty damn good but the occultist regular attack is a fifty is a 12% modifier which is 5% different in crit modifier yeah you can't you can't count on crit per se but over over a course dungeon that's a fair amount of stress too and we're missing doing that maybe a minor point but again it goes to the opportunity cost of when you're casting mark you're not casting something else and lots of times there's better options for that but that doesn't really address any of the core issues here at quarters and marks is it just things I want out there ahead of time before we actually jump into addressing the core issues and this starts to get a little bit complicated to talk about okay and it matters it matters the number of hits to kill a target in general at the max level marking a target basically doubles your damage versus that target the bounty hunter is plus 90 percent versus a marked target and that's all the way up at level one it's plus ninety percent at level five or level six it's plus ninety percent as well that doesn't change and which which means that the lower levels mark is better for the bounty hunter than the other classes and the highest level it's slightly worse with a bounty hunter than it is for other mark classes but it's still a lot of base damage and ninety percent plus ninety percent damage is essentially it's not quite double damage right there's a little bit shy of double damage the how master and the árboles work a little bit differently these scale for hounds rush it starts off at plus fifty percent damage versus marked and then goes up sixty seventy eighty and it starts at 60 mi goes 60 70 80 90 100 for his level ups for how master right but at level five is doing double damage prior to level five it's not doing double damn and at level at level one it's only doing 50% more damage versus a marked target so it's not even the efficiency of getting double attacks off same with the árboles I think hers scales I think hers actually goes 50 60 70 80 100 and skips over the 91 but it's the same deal the earlier levels marks less good for the árboles than it would be at the later levels okay so at least from the same page here's I'm ticking taking a look at at the actual damage increase you're getting for the sake of this video we're going to assume the latest level is where the markets most effective which means double damage pretty much we're going to call it double damage for all the characters except the occultists right you called it gets no damage for attacking a marked target the highwayman and the grave robber do get 25% damage increase for attacking a marked target with their range attacks daggers throw a pistol shot I can't remember the bag of stores called is called throne dagger and pistol shot do 25% extra damage versus a mark but that's not what people are really talking about we're talking mark targets so let's again look at a couple things let's say that you're only really wanting to run marks on bounty hunters in occultus which i think is a fairly I think that's a bit of a fair assessment I don't want to give up an ability on the Arve list who's my damage dealer anyways to be casting mark most of time and I don't really want to be giving up the ability on my hound either I don't want to give up stun or stress yell I certainly don't want to give up guard or regular heal to deal with the marked target so in reality we have two classes that are actually able to cast marks a beast from my opinion and those are bounty hunters or cultists and there's really only three classes you're going to be running the ever gained a bonus from those marks which are the árboles how master a highway or and a bounty hunter right those that's that's pretty much it maybe you guys can make an argument for me in the comments about why I'd want to give up one of these skills for Ann Arbor list or why I want to give up one of these skills for the Hound but I suspect you're not going to be able to I suspect that my my appreciation for these skills is just too high to be giving those up on those targets um so now there's the question of well if we're looking at it in terms of double damage how many hits does it take to kill an enemy and it really matters here if it takes two hits to kill an enemy so if it just takes two actions to kill the enemy from pretty much any character in your group then the mark is basically always useless because okay if you mark the target it does zero damage and then you shoot it and it does two times damage you're getting two damage worth of unit 2 damage units in there right and let's go it takes two damaged units to kill that fine that would be equal to attacking it once from two different targets right remember this is only max level prior to that it's actually worse but at max level let's say that we're if it had two hits to kill it that would be equal and damage except for the fact that half damage is worth something well zero damage isn't so if your if your attacks where your first target hits the target and your second target misses and it takes two hits to kill that target that means you just need one more attack from another target to kill that last guy if your attacks are mark miss or miss shoot miss shoot is equal to the other the other scenario where it's shoot where its shoot miss or whatever it was but the the mark followed by a Miss is not equal to that unless all of your almost all of your damage dealers are doing double damage to mark targets in this group most of them are but if you ever are running something that isn't exactly this composition most of your damage abilities are not double damage versus mark targets only a few of your guys are so if you're if you're a cult this marks it and then your argument is it you've done no damage as opposed to half the damage health half the targets health which means that across the course of time where you run into some misses from time to time any scenario in which that happens it takes you two more attacks to kill the enemy as opposed to one more attack which would have been a few directly targeted okay so that's one of the problems maybe that's a bit of a minor one at to two attacks but let's let's put these into the equation you think about this let's look at three attacks three attacks a little bit different again so with three attacks it's going to be either attack attack attack or it's going to be mark attack with a thing that does damage to marks and then another attack that either does or doesn't do damage extra damage to marks so in other words you have to get vs. a thing that takes three attacks is going to be one marched damage and one non mark damage would be enough to kill it so the actions that it's going to take for you to kill it are mark the target shoot it with a guy who does mark damage shoot it with anything three actions to kill it right let's look at it if you didn't have the mark in there hit it once hit it twice head of three times is dead right so still three actions to kill it so roughly there with the caveat that a if you're marked the guy who does damnit extra damage to mark targets misses then you've lost two attacks as opposed to one and B if for some reason it doesn't actually take three it takes three and a half kills then the mark is actually gonna pull ahead a little bit there so that's that's one of the things to look at there it's different again if you look at four with four attacks it is mark the target shoot it with two guys to do mark damage only takes two reactions to kill it whereas if you shoot it with four regular guys that take four attacks just four actions to kill it all right so we can start to see when the mark starts pulling ahead now I don't see many scenarios where that is going to occur so I see it with okay so I guess maybe we scoot back one tick here and take a look at a couple other things mark is most effective versus targets that don't have multi actions if the target has multi actions you run into some really unfortunate scenarios where because the mark only sticks for three actions not three rounds which means it very easily comes off with targets with multiple multiple actions you may instead of getting you don't get your full duration of that mark and if the target is going to survive a round of hits with the market becomes really efficient but if you gets rid of that mark every single round it becomes very very on efficient so there's one thing to look at another thing to look at the composition that we're running these are all the current characters that can mark in the game and pretty much all the characters that do additional damage to the market targets árboles really needs to be in position for three how master can be in really position three four or two down 800 could be in position three or two and is okay in one but it's quite a bit worse in position one than he is in position 2 or 3 because uppercut is a much weaker stun than flash bang and then the occultist can really be in position one two or three however in this comp what is the ideal layout for this comp so if you're going to be running a mark comp and these four characters are all okay characters with the exception of how master is absolutely [ __ ] phenomenal what what is your conflict like I think a lot of people are going to suggest this is the comp this cop is okay the Bounty Hunter is pretty inefficient in this position is nice of the occultist as in in position one two you're probably going to end up looking at something like this for your skill set there this for your skill set and this is here and this for your skill set in this position here the problem with this cop is it doesn't stress you it only has one stunner who can hit position three or four and it's not particularly tanky here and your backup heeling it I mean you do have some you do have some back appealing you do have a garden here there are some nice synergies there for this comp but this comp isn't amazing this compass whatever it's going to be very very good versus high-value targets that have a lot of health that don't have a lot of actions like the level 5 special and units in there and some of the bosses and things like stress goals etc it would be pretty damn good with but there's also an argument for doing something like this for comp this comp here would actually give us stress healing would give us a stun that hits position one through three and we give us another Sun that hits position through one through four which is to me quite a bit better than that it does risk the fact the occultus is upfront which is a little bit dangerous she's going to take he's going to take more damage in that position you give up Eldridge artillery which is an amazing skill but you're hypothetically making up for that with the mark stuff right your goal is to be able to project damage to the back ranks and you've to damage to I was able to do that and you have that nice dress recovery of that so what's what I wanted to do is kind of look at a couple couple fights where we use the mark versus didn't use a mark and kind of kind of play through that because there are other problems with marks that are but I kind of address of the movement element of this but haven't really addressed at this part of it and those are things like the the actions taken in between and the timing and around when that happens so to take advantage this comp ideally to take advantage of of its marks it really needs one of two things to happen it means either the occultist to go first or the bounty hunter to go first and in that scenario it needs if that is in in that scenario it really needs ideally the occultus to go first because the Bounty Hunter's done hits position 1 through 4 and the occultists not only hits 1 through 3 now if you juggle this copper around again to look like this it's even worse right because the bounty hunter can't stun position 3 for at all only the Hound mastercam he can only some position 3 with blackjack which means that your mark stun stuff is going to be even weaker here you're going to get the marked off the occultist he's going to have to mark position four because you can't control position four otherwise and then the only guy who can hit position four is árboles or the for the hound master and if the hell master attacks position four he can't attack he can't stun position three and the bounty hunter can't stun position three here which means that you're always leaving position three uncontrolled so all right let's do a couple fights here because I'm kind of curious how this works out I wouldn't mind walking through a few of them and it might be interesting to do this is now live for me on camera so I don't know what we're going to walk into I don't know what fights we're going to walk into I've itemized these guys how I would I de mais guys to do this is their level five fights so so it's always dangerous I'm hoping we might encounter a few of the level five code guys but I die my first bead damage and accuracy on the ARB list I've itemized for stun chance and stun chance and accuracy and damage on the Bounty Hunter I've itemized for accuracy damage and scout chance on the how master itemized for accuracy damage and stun percentage on the occultist if I were running the occultist in position three I would probably go heal and stress heal so I bring something like Jimmy's head plus plus book of sanity but I don't think we're going to do that for this one because I just want to walk through a couple fights and see how that marketing works out in reality on this so my suspicion is with speed eight speed 7 speed 8 and speed 5 which is actually speed 7 with this modifier here you're not always going to be in the position to go first when you want to go first now you could say to filty well don't run Plus speed on the árboles let the árboles go last maybe run plus B on the occultist a where the hell are we getting that from we do have a speed quirk so that might work out a little bit anyways maybe we shouldn't do a speed quicker Colchis it might throw that off a little bit but maybe we can let lets hell let's even give them that advantage right that keeps the relative difference in turn order between the árboles and the occultist that still means it's speed 7 compared to speed 10 that still is not that big of a difference right that means if you add it's a d8 behind the scenes so really the range on the speed of this guy is 11 through 17 11 through which it's a 1 through 1 through 8 right so it becomes 11 verses 18 and the speed range on the árbol is now 7 through 16 right or 72f 15 rather than 18 8 & 7 so so there's still a lot of this a lot of roles in which the árboles goes ahead of the occultus and any time that happens you lose the entire bonus with no marks right so and again the cult is having the mark it's not such a big deal but let's see how it looks let's go let's go take some fights so alright we're not going to have games down for this it's going to be me talking I could turn it back on by don't thing I'm going to I don't think anyone has a curse here let's just bring it let's just bring plenty of everything so that we don't deal with any nonsense sure let's just bring [ __ ] everything right here alright let's go I just want to go have a couple fights and look at the interaction of those marks and we can try both both party comps or maybe not we'll see what the timing looks like I don't want this to just go on forever but I did want to walk through just a couple of these together I don't think there's a really easy way to discuss mark stop doing that because it's a complicated subject all right no no fights okay two fights this way let's go that way I do have a game speed mod on so it should be a little bit faster than just standard game speed but it's worth thinking about I think I have all the correct skills on did we turn back to we put position three dog and position to Bounty Hunter and we have mark on position one occultists okay so it's going to be all Schindler fights and totally screw up everything for us keep our torch up alright so we walk into something stupid like this all right so this round straight off the bat despite the fact that we have speed 10 here and the Arve list is only speed 7 first thing that happens our Veloz goes first so we've already lost the advantage of having a mark this round because our damage dealer that takes advantage of the market isn't going to have anything for that so we're going to go after position 4 that's good for us we don't have any good stuns here which is a little bit unfortunate I could throw our anti protection mark on this guy and he does have protection so that could be useful let's take a look at that to get the mark bonus there which is nice these are unsellable which is a little bit obnoxious so I would just do some damage to one of them really matter which one I guess anything besides position one because she can't hit position one so just do some damage there and then we have damage here so remember the goal is to give them as few actions as possible and we might as well not have how to mark their in some sense yeah no stuns bunny hundreds opposed to the Sun position four but we chose the mark instead questionable I think in retrospect I should have just stunned it but I was trying to get the mark step up all right three attacks on the Hound kind of sucks all right let's throw a heel on the hell master I'd like to be able to do some damage with the hound master all right can we kill this before it X is B - it's almost certainly going to die let's get rid of this dot and was throw holy water just in case so that's the second attack third action to attack that what does it tell 50 - I could stun it but it's almost certainly the árboles is going to go ahead of aim kill it so I don't think there's a lot of point to doing that was to damage here the goal will be to kill before Dex and then this is our fourth action to kill it with massive overkill there I'm not actually sure we gained anything by that mark we did take two attacks on it with double damage so that was essentially five that's one - that's one two three four five attacks on it versus not marking it and stunning it I'm not actually sure we removed any actions that it wouldn't have taken otherwise in fact I think we might have lost an action but maybe I should have done this set of marked I'm not sure that I will call it will call that even but my suspicion is marks are actually less efficient than not having marked in that position and I just shot the wrong one it definitely should have attacked the should of attack position too so I could have killed it with the herbalist all right speed through the end of this site if possible it's now recover around this fight either I guess I can get one stress he'll off the hound or something but in large part there's no way to stun these guys there's no way to control them to point heals pretty nice all right took advantage of bold up for the crit chance could run a stress yell but I think I would rather kill this thing before it axe crits really nice for that and just kill that alright let's go find my fight I would like to actually be full for these fights ok torchlight hi let's take another fight are we any advantages to actually having a mark here this should be a really good fight for mark because there's a squid gassed over there and things are really really obnoxious but again árboles rolled ahead of the occultus so probably some of you are like but filthy you're running a speed item on the on the árboles remember again this guy actually does have to speed so the difference in speed is still the same as it would be with an occultist versus not having a speed item on the árboles and also remember that your damage dealers you generally want your damage to dealers to go first anyway so speed items on damage dealers are good because you act ahead of your your enemy targets so hey this doesn't matter the relative turn order between the two and B you're going to want to do this so most of times it's actually going to be worse the action order between the árboles in the occultists most of the time it's going to be even more likely if you're running a speed item for the occultist to go to go after the ARB list alright so this is a little bit annoying we're going to try to kill the culpa switch again if I look at this I say I don't want these two acting for [ __ ] these two are very very high priority threats these two this guy's not a threat at all he's actually really good for us we can recover off him later this guy doesn't bleed damaged and a little bit obnoxious but mostly I just don't want these two acting so in this scenario I wouldn't mark here I would either stun our attack with sickle guitar damage range 9 to 15 is a pretty damn good chance to kill that or I could stun it but I would swing there for a kill alright this guy goes forward he's dangerous when he's in front he's not so dangerous when he's in back I was done him so he can't act next turn the Sun chance is a little bit awkward is 165 185 - 115 so we're looking it's not a guaranteed stunt but I would still take this done and it's also a shuffle which can push him in the back which is great for us because you can't do [ __ ] from the back all right he's not marked but we still need to do damage over there so I would pride and I say that we have it we bought ourselves another term with the shut-ins the stun shuffle we could just let him be for a minute hope our occultus gets a mark on him and try to do some damage here it would be good to kill the champion before he does too much damage but we have a lot of time to recover up the Guardian I think we're going to focus the gas gassed and gosh it just turns down Don you guys think a little bit sound for this sure right then Wayne can you let us okay so again our blissed is rolling ahead of our occultist despite having three lower speed but going first again and again we're going to do damage to the back it's a nice crit we can stun the Guardian don't really want to push this guy forward but doesn't matter too much the body hunters not doing much to damage the back rank he's unfortunately going to survive and I would stun this target here I can't hit this target but we don't need to mark it's only a 10 health it's going to die next time anyways meaning the marks useless again I don't want to take an action from this guy if I can avoid it might as well just stun all right who rolled Cultus is next kind of hilarious honestly because ideally our árboles would have gone here and killed that we have two options here the first is stunning one of these targets which is fairly decent three options really stunning one of these targets which is fine healing which is fine or setting up a kill on this guy he doesn't he just have 33 dodge there's a chance we'd miss it there's a chance we could do less than 10 damage I think 9 to 17 there and 10 to 23 there and what's the no protection on that it's pretty unlikely the Dodge is actually working I think I'd rather double stun here so let's go for a double stun on this guy got to love me some crit on the stuns all right still at 76 light so we still have our bonus let's go for the kill here all right now we have the ability to kill this guy I'll go for a blind fire shot on that so 5050 we hit it we're going to go ahead of him next time we can go for the double stun on this guy so he gets no action so we'll flash bang there but again even with the mark group I'm not actually seeing any benefit of our mark here so I'll bolo this guy for the free crit didn't quite work out that way but we'll kill that target without him acting we can just start a little bit mean we any stress here sure well stress yell because it's a guardian we can recover forever this guy's not stun a ball this round so we'll throw a heel it's going to be plus 80 percent stun resist I'll put a mark to death on a mark for death it will remove its protection but I'm not in a rush to kill this guy at this stage in the fight removing his protection does absolutely is it isn't advantageous rather if something does absolutely nothing is still removed protection but I don't want to kill this guy quickly at this stage of the fight this stage of the fight would actually like to do is just pull heal so let's take a heal here we're at zero stress so I don't really need to stress field here I could guard here I could do a little damage let's start the damage there I'm going to heal there árboles can't heal yourself from position 4 and she can heal position 2 and I'm going to stun here because we got two more rounds of stunning and all the rounds in the world to recut remember in general reinforcements will only come if there's one guy remaining or reinforcements don't come if there's two guys remaining or a guy who's two tiles wide or bigger but the exception in the game is this this mob this mob because he has such high protection you have unlimited rounds versus this guy so we have no no rush to kill them whatsoever we can keep taking our time to recover we'll attempt for our second stun here you should be only plus 40% stun resistant I resisted that one we've got another stun row let's take the second stun roll get our second stun off put a little bit more damage in with the dog he's bleeding it's not quite dead to a bleed one more attack will kill him we have a heal there so now we've recovered fully off this still haven't found a use for that mark yet which is a bit unfortunate and we'll roll for a crit here in fact because we're rolling for a crit we can increase the árboles chance of getting a crit we get that one point of stress healing by putting a mark on it all right let's have it you don't really want to take stuff right now let's see if we can find a fight with mark actually comes in useful because so far it isn't yet it just feels better to be doing these other actions every single time so I'll be curious perhaps I'm making mistakes from your guy's perspective I'm certainly willing to hear it if I am but at the moment again even with the mark I haven't seen a reason to do it yet all right let's take a look here well I've got I could put a mark on this target but I could just stun him and then he doesn't get an action at all and I'm much more tempted to do that right now than I am to mark all right both of these targets would be nice to have them killed and I'm going to want to spend that guy this guy I can't hit with the árboles so I'll take two attacks on the grouper in the back with the hope that two attacks will kill them champion dungeon is unlikely let's go first down on the crab resisted our stun unfortunately we've got to boost the torch light we're 74 it's a huge huge bleed all right and this scenario again unfortunately all this at the end of the round so it's not quite as big a deal I'll still shoot the the grouper all right where are we going to get our mark off here is it mark off before it is a mark worth it here this guy is probably okay so let's think what I want to do is I want to take my time recovering off the crab I want to get rid of this grouper we can double we can double stun this crab probably mostly wouldn't be bad to get rid of his protection to set them up for a kill but the mark off of the occultist doesn't do that this guy's 95% son resistant we're at 175 so it's not too bad so does that 60 80 percent chance to stun rather I think I'll take this done there resisted probably do the math wrong but I want that protection debuff there and/or a stun there don't have a mark here because I couldn't afford to bring it on this guy I think I'd rather just kill the grouper all right we just took a big bleed let's get rid of it I'd like to stun the crab so it doesn't act I'd also like to protection debuff it but I don't seem to have the actions at the moment and potentially if I move this guy I can shoot this guy with the arm list anyways it should be great we didn't kill it left it too unfortunate and alright our turn I'd love to well I don't want to put an on protection mark on him I'd like to stun him but I think it's better just to kill this guy so he has no actions I want to pretty much stun resistant right now 135 actually we're 185 again so it's a 50% chance to stun him he does nothing if I 50% chance to stun and we get to sun's off them if we resist it anyways the next rounds I think it's probably easier to stun him than it is Markham but did resist that let's set up just a little bit of healing we're not in a rush to kill this guy's not a very scary enemy and I will do a little bit of damage there okay all right um I want to throw here on the bounty hunter although we might just need to throw stuns in this guy be nice to stun here and marked there and he'll the next round so let's try for the stun stunned enemies don't [ __ ] do anything queer getting really unlucky with resists right I'm not doing this math wrong right so it's 150 170 and he has 95% stun resistance so see can't seem to do [ __ ] basic math at my head right now so we went 170 on this so it's a 75 chance to stun right so it's pretty unlucky alright again I would love to mark him but the better play to me seems to be rolling on our high percentage stun finally we just hit a stun a little bit more damage there this round we're actually likely to to attempt that let's run a heal here our marker didn't go first so let's put that there again our market didn't go first we'll just put damage into him and Mark here some percentage is pretty bad right now 185 - and we're only at 50% again just done we rolled on the 50 last time honestly it's probably better than doing this so let's just say I marked for death here I know some of you right now in the comments section I'm going to be saying well this is why you need to run marks and everybody because another protection mark would have been better here but what would I'm giving up for that I have a very hard time imagining a scenario in which I want to give up any of the four skills in the town master right now and I have a very hard time imagining any of these skills I want to give up on the are bolused maybe maybe you could argue for giving up bola although bola is really really nice here like I could do additional damage here but he's done this round we're going to get a full round next turn I think it's probably better to throw a heel here doesn't feel like my speed mod is on right now all right I'm not going to try to stun in this round I'm going to try to kill him we're definitely gonna have that option keep our healing up if we can the árboles goes next will heal again because the Hound can kill it oh we just got really screwed on speed roll 2 versus where we have 7 here 8 ok fine stress heal he's going to die to the dot or he's not guys I thought we have to do a little bit more damage to him but still a teal first definitely did not have a speed mode on Sheol again take our kill we could stress heal again all right did the mark help us there feels like kind of it didn't and that's one of the premier targets that it would help us on all right I don't know if I'm making this a very good example or not it feels like it's going a little bit long-winded for the point here but the point I think is coming across that even when I'm bringing in all marked composition even with the enemies that it's most likely to be effective on that's being the level 5 guys who's going to take more than two attacks for earlier guys are left health the mark gets better the more attacks more text it takes to kill a target because you're going to get the more actual benefits from doing that even so even on the highest level of difficulty which has the biggest health creatures even with creatures with extended health and protection stuff where I'm going to want to be using marks even with the comp totally based around running marks which is this comp I'm still mostly finding that I'd rather be doing other actions than using the mark mostly stunning sometimes healing often dps so when is going to be useful I mean maybe we're just doing this one let's turn off stress healing let's say that for some reason that we actually value we don't value stress healing at all of these two I guess I can argue that Bowl is a little bit worse than blind fire especially but this this is now I know stress Co comp despite us having one of the characters who can do it let's let's even be a little bit more reasonable let's say that I don't run that let's Ted keep distressing like a stressed and like super super valuable say I run this comp we picked up another mark on the árboles let's see if this actually another fight or two actually gives us a chance to to find somewhere where we actually use a mark in a fight because right now it just doesn't feel that way at all of course the game's not cooperating giving me fights but we'll keep going alright okay this should be a good fight for marks in general because half the targets are stun immune which means that we're not going to be spending a lot of time stunning but not all of them are and it would be really good to stun this I suppose this guy has high protection I'd like to kill the mosquito a little bit awkward here because what I want to do is stunned this guy and stun this guy this round so they don't get actions and then kill the mosquito alright let's do that though let's done this guy first I know I can hit position for was expecting him to rotate he didn't I guess I shouldn't expected in the rotate he's 295 stun resist but okay we'd love the occultist to go next you call this is speed 10 this guy's speed 8 but doesn't matter we're still going to do damage on the mosquito at 20 health we are going to mark the mosquito that the curse is unfortunate where's my speed mod and why is it not running right now all right and let's shoot this guy here so this step mark probably actually did help here because this guy would not have been able to get an attack off there and because of that we get our we get the kill here we went I think that was actually +1 for the mark alright this is the are bolused right now I need to do damage on that target this guy can't hit it with the mark bonus because only the mark bonus is only from position can only hit position one two and I think I'd rather just shoot it then both of these guys can mark it at less of a cost to me than using my damage dealer so I think I'd rather shoot at the market and that's always by the way what I feel like with the ARB list it was almost never scenario where I feel like using snipers mark on árboles is worth it because she almost always wants to shoot anyways I will vulnerability hex that now I will use the dog for damage I'm not even sure that was the right move dog did double damage probably was the right move all right we might be just done again then we're not 80% is not gonna be done let's hit this guy just for damage for next round yes I could have marked one of those guys for next round possibly good dodge alright so what does this look like for this round damage there and kills it that was probably actually useful for the mark 2 that wasn't terrible I suppose I wouldn't mind a little bit of healing let's throw a heel there we can only do damn around let's take a 50/50 on that guy I'd like to kill this before you axe but I don't think it's going to work damn one health away okay so let's take a look here I guess I do full damage there let's think about this this double damage make up for wasting an attack right now not in this character I don't think because this guy's guy can do additional damage to it so let's count our action if we shot this right now it'd be one one attack with that guy want to attack with the Hound there one attack with the Bounty Hunter there that'd be three attacks and the ocultist would kill that those would be our four actions and we'd get three three units worth of damage on this if I mark that right now we get four units worth of damage on that because they're each two so it is actually better to mark their assuming that it would die assuming that it wouldn't have died just two three units worth of damage and probably actually would have died too three units or at the damage since our guys need to be hitting for about twenty and it had 30 health so that's probably about even all right all right let's do one more fight and then call this a dead horse that we are ready to stop beating here but I am looking for anything that really pulls ahead for the mark or the other way so far it seems to be the bulk of them just haven't really been my advantageous for the mark and there's been some small advantages otherwise and I'll be curious this chat tells me I'm massively miss playing this in some way I don't feel like I am massively miss playing the fact there's no [ __ ] enemies in this dungeon all right there's none of me I got two fights left let's do the two fights and then I call it a video okay do we have any advantage from Marx here right now well I really don't want to cut threat to attack he is extremely dangerous you applied bleeds and multiple targets I really want him stunned so I'm going to stun him remember this is even worse in terms of marks if we show Tuffle this around because we lose all of our back rank stunning I want to kill both of these targets I care a lot about the AoE there let's do damage to the back rank we did just do 15 damage to it a tap that's helped I could mark it but it seems totally useless this guy won't wait to hit it anyways I really would like to kill him before he acts speed buff oh my god we're not we're not using Sun Rings right now it's good up to 75 sunlight this guy hasn't acted yet I really don't want him to point blank this guy I think that's probably more valuable than marking this guy for next round so it's done all right around here I want this guy dead he's got 26 health and he's speed 5 speed 5 it's unlikely he goes ahead of us but it's not all that unlikely speed 7 isn't particularly fast and speed 8 isn't all that fast either I could see it going either way right now our guys are doing what did we decide our guys are doing and damage our guys are doing 10 to 19 so this is it this is 33 over 2 this is 26 over - and this is 29 over - so this is guys doing 13 this guy's doing like 16 and this guy's doing about 15 damage so in other words it takes two actions to kill this guy anyways what are we doing for damage here 7:00 till 11 I think it's either better to mark this guy it might be better to mark that guy and assume that we'll have two actions to kill that guy there's one the role really low on that it's unfortunate and we're old low on that one - we're going to take us three actions to kill him okay good attack for us there he is marked we don't really want to rush this we have a little bit of time to recover it'd be nice to do that let's heal here it's our first Center let's take one stress heal here do some damage might have actually been beneficial there a little bit done them out since we've got two attacks in to tax for two characters right we stunned them last round it's tough to say I'm not entirely sure about that can we kill them without this I think yes four let's try it throw another heal and then just DPS here yeah he's going to die too the Bounty Hunter I should take a heal here right so got a long winded way of looking at this it doesn't really feel like to me that we're seeing a lot of benefits of the mark even then and remember this is ideal scenarios for the mark this is Mark at the maximum level we're getting the maximum value out of it it's marking a group that everyone can take advantage of the mark - you cultists and everyone can cast the mark - unlikely the dog and it still seems like it's mostly situational I come back to what I stand by right the problem is ordering you guys have seen it multiple times now where the árboles goes after the occultist so we get no damage on the back ranks its opportunity cost most of the times I'd rather be stunning than I would be marking and it's just the way that HP works out that a lot of times I don't need to mark a target to kill it and it's better to do damage and that's in the best case scenario where I have an entire comp dedicated to marking all the classes can mark all of the characters get benefits to the damage on marking I come back to when is it beneficial to do marking in the real world in the real world in the real world of darkest dungeon when I'm running around most the times the only compass things I want to mark are things like stress schools that have high protection and that you have to kill in bosses with one action those tend to be the things that I'm most against it are marking and I would just I'll check this last fight it's only on the off chance that we get it's a considered groom it can't be a ghoul anyways but ok we'll do one last bite just in case just in case where do we get some advantage out of this and I'll be curious what you guys say in a calm and the the comments sections about this so alright one last fight let's do it we get all right prai's around so we get all of our actions here okay if I look at this fight these two are the most dangerous by far this guy in particular is really really dangerous but we'd like to get this guy out of the route out of the way we'll just endure their attacks until we can recover so all right this guy here I know I have dog trees up and illiberal you're not using it because I'm trying to trying to use the fact of an average fight for all of these types of every every one of these encounters so I would do damage here hound goes first Hound does damage there we did half of its health it seems unlikely that a mark is going to help us there I'd shoot it okay we have multiple stuns here I could see the benefit of marking there because at the moment if our characters are doing on average 15 this means it's four and a half hits to kill that guy and our characters aren't quite doing 15 but if I mark it instead of four and a half it's going to be two and a half actions so I actually rather than take four actions I could get away with taking three actions with the mark that seems like a good target for a mark and then what's done there's one of those moves that I keep talking about those moves where the enemies fix their relative positioning that's really bad for us the barnacle barrier is going to [ __ ] up stuff if we go in the wrong order we need one of these characters to go first and we didn't get it that's really obnoxious I will shoot this guy with blind fire the goal being to go first next round so we can kill this guy sooner he's in position one we brought him forward which is a little bit scary position one a position to is where he gets his big stress new coffin unfortunately our other damage dealer has gone before either of our Steiners so we gain nothing from this we just do damage here again this target does need to die at some point there's the one we don't want to get which is off tilted jig that's the AoE huge stress heal on us or stressed new bonus he's marked he's now taken to actions wall marks we only get one more round of actions on him he's only a guy who has a single action imagine if he had double actions how screwed we'd be on that this guy is dead I think I'm just going to stun this guy to get rid of the guard and honestly I don't know if I want to bring him forward or not his speed 8 I wish I could slow him down I think I'll take this done even though it could bring them all the way for it to bring them all the way for the R blows can't [ __ ] shoot him pretty obnoxious with those shuffles that's two mimosas oh man I can't cyphers mark him it would be OK to refresh the mark this guy's already dead to the dot I guess I could throw a heel for recovery purposes ok I will mark of death this guy he has no protection though still keep that mark I know I'm gonna hit him alright ok he's just gone it's no longer marked he is potentially stun him 155 is not real stunning although we only had we'd only have a 15% chance to stun him which seems really bad news to me let's just redo his hex got to hope the Bounty Hunter will tie or the hound master rules high 23 is not high enough actually if any of our guys go first here though except the árboles we can kill them our ballistic O's first start shooting them we missed our fifty fifty us next please okay this is a little bit dangerous we have a cultist who's at less than half health but I really need this guy dead can do 12 damage 9 to 15 again ok it's good now the reason why we're running stress healing because we took a bunch of stress and we really like to not take a bunch of stress we don't want to kill this guy anytime soon we can recover to full off of him so it's done and go do that alright we're on the recovery phase it's nice to have recovery abilities still taking the [ __ ] horror which is ridiculous probably stun again he's only plus 40% resist all right you know what it is because I changed the mod to a workshop mod which means that I have to enable it on each playthrough as opposed to just a game mod game file modification which means in this particular player which is an older player that I had available for purposes like this I'm not actually getting the speed increasing mod just kind of annoying I wish I had remembered that when I started it I can roll for a stun but I'm not real excited about it I'm just rolling for the crit essentially for the stress healing portion of it and actually did stun him despite being plus 80% of Sun resistant which is pretty unlikely we just killed our light but I'm not too worried about the accuracy we're still recovering throw a heel there I'd like to get a couple more stress heals off before the fight ends because this is the recovery portion of the fight and we really really want to recover he's not so noble anymore I guess I can run just multiple protection d buffs on him seems to stack and do I want to fish for a crit here yeah but I don't want to kill him so I'm just going to look for low damage hi Kurt skills for stress healing so what I want to do is extend this fight as long as I can to recover to get my stress downs to be ready for the next fight and also ready for the fact that at the end of the dungeon the amount of stress my characters have accumulated affects how much they're going to take in terms of the chances of getting a negative quirk he is done a ball again we can just keep stunning it with high crit chance tons I don't need to stone twice in a round so just keep stacking that protection buff up for when I am ready to kill him we maybe can just kill him outright we'd like probably 2 to 3 more rounds of stress healing he might be stunned well he might not is school keep healing marking I'm stressed yelling alright one more round and we'll call it maybe honestly for the sake of a demonstration it would be I don't need to do this so I won't bother for this but basically we've stressed healed now down to zero because we've kept the recovery again what would we be taking for the dog to get the mark in I can't imagine the mark didn't seem all that useful here but a little bit useful versus the big guy but not not super useful in my opinion and we'll take our stress yell then and then we'll kill it alright guys but anyways I did want to address the videos and try to give you guys some demonstrations of why I'm never that thrilled about marks the exceptions again our enemies that are very high that have a lot of health or a lot of protection that are high priority enemies and we actually saw one in this fight and the mark wasn't actually terrible in this fight so maybe that's something to think about but in general I just don't think it's worth it even in comps that are designed to do that anyways guys I noticed wearing a little bit long we did basically play an entire mission of darkest dungeon while doing this but I wanted to kind of give you guys an idea of exactly what I'm thinking about when I make these decisions when I'm talking about how good or bad our marks is basically because I've gone through and tried them repeatedly in different scenarios and been like I don't know it doesn't seem that good to me so anyways thank you very much for watching hope this is helpful leave the comments in the comment sections I'm sure you guys have a lot to say about this one and thanks for watching

Channel: FilthyRobot

Views: 64,888

Rating: 4.9025307 out of 5

Keywords: Red Hook, Redhook, Darkest, Dungeon, Darkest Dungeon, crimson, court, dlc, Let's, lets, Play, Look, gameplay, HD, pc, vod, video, game, footage, release, official, hints, tips, tricks, guide, howto, how-to, how, Filthy, FilthyRobot, Robot, commentary, english, basic, newby, beginner, newb, novice, help, turn based, turn, based, rogue-like, rogue, horror, lovecraft, lovecraftian, no light, light, season 10, season ten, bosses, shambler, level 5, lvl 5, Stygian, hard, ng+, bloodmoon, classes, ddguide, mark, stun

Id: t6Qs9GKCYgM

Length: 62min 10sec (3730 seconds)

Published: Fri Jul 28 2017