How Can You Defend a Guilty Person? Ep. 3.358

hello welcome it's gonna play to us a lot I'm Steve lay tell Matthew sent me an email asked me a question which i think is a great one and I've been asked this before but he actually laid out all the hypotheticals on it and and really got me thinking so I thought you know something this is such a good question I've got a I've got a answer and here's the question I'm an attorney practicing law in Michigan for almost 28 years now I don't do a lot of criminal work but I'm familiar with it and of course I studied it in law school and I passed the bar on it too but here's the deal suppose you're an attorney doing criminal defense work any planet and an accused defendant someone who's accused of a crime comes in your office sits down and says I want to hire you to defend me okay and you say okay cool I need the work pay me some money I'll defend you and during the course of the representation the person is oh by the way just the one let you know I did it I'm guilty I'm as guilty as a day as long they accuse me of a crime they got the guy but we're gonna go to court and fight it anyway okay are you cool with that and Matthew actually give me a bunch of different examples of you know what happens if you know they did it versus you think they did it versus they tell you they did it you know that kind of thing and and and and of course there are a couple different ways of looking at this but the important thing is this Michigan and its attorneys follow what are called the Michigan Rules of Professional Conduct and in most states that I'm aware of they have rules on ethics the rules that attorneys must follow to be able to practice law they must behave ethically and the rules address specifically the relationships between the attorneys and the court the attorneys and the clients and the attorneys and everyone else okay and so you can get in trouble if you behave unethically in any of those three settings and so what we're talking about here is basically the relationship between you and your client and you and the court because you can talk to your client all day long you know your classes look I did it but I need some help you know that's that's not gonna be the problem the problem of course is how you gonna go to court and present it to court so there are two rules that come into play here and I believe that most states have got parallel rules on this so it's simply a matter of what the rule is in your state and I'm not expecting you to look this up because the rules of professional conduct are very confusing they're worse than law because laws are written by legislators for courts to interpret in attorneys to argue over the rules of professional conduct are simply written by you know courts and are only dealing with attorneys and so they've actually added a I believe a layer of complexity perhaps just a mess with us I don't know so here's the first thing somebody comes to you and they say look I I did it I'm guilty I still want an attorney I want to hire you here's a bag of money they hand you the cloth bag it's got the big dollar sign in the front you open it up look in there there's just wads of cash bundles of hundreds with those cool wrappers around them okay and just a big old pile of money a guy goes gonna count it it's more than you could possibly want it's more than you ever require it's just a big ol bag of cash now I need your help he said cool okay so you're gonna represent the person everyone deserves a good defense and you know I had people when I was going to law school from my previous life especially the old radio stations they say Steve I'm curious how would you live with yourself if you were defending bad guys you know wouldn't you have a hard time sleeping at night if you knew there's a guy who's a criminal and you helped him get off it's like that and I said you know something I don't know I'm gonna do criminal work when I get out but if I did I would tell myself well everyone in America is entitled to good legal representation my job as an attorney presumably will be to help these people make sure they get a fair shake from the court systems doesn't mean that everyone's gonna get off for everything they're accused of doing but we have also heard the people who got railroaded because they didn't have a good attorney so good attorneys there to keep you from getting railroaded if nothing else and they're helped you you know to help you get through the system fairly okay so if someone comes to you says look I did it I'm guilty I did it and you say okay I'm gonna represent you now there's nothing wrong with you representing him you're allowed to represent them no problem at all but if they say I want to go into court and I want to get on the stand and lie okay I want to testify in my own defense I've got this great alibi I'm convinced the jury's gonna like me and they're gonna love my alibi and I want you to help me with that because you know I'm gonna get understand so you the attorney better ask me the questions that I'm going to give the lies to okay well that's where you have a problem because attorneys are not allowed to help perpetrate a fraud upon the court and so if the client told you I am going to lie they're saying I'm gonna commit perjury I'm going to commit perjury and you're gonna help me commit perjury by asking me questions and letting me give lies as answers and then ask follow-up questions and you're gonna then present that to the jury and the court as being my truthful testimony even though you're gonna know it's lies well it turns out there's a rule that says I can't do that and I'm it's in Michigan it's Mr PC rule 1.16 declining or terminating representation so they've already give me the bag of money you may have already started working on the representation and now you realize that they're gonna commit perjury if you continue with them so you can decline or represent representation a lawyer shall not represent the client or if representation is commenced she'll withdraw from the representation of a client if the representation will result in violation of the rules of professional conduct or other law okay and then it talks about the different things that happen including the the attorney must inform the client about what's happening and then the attorney must do what they can to notify the tribunal the judge at court and so on and you'll go into court see my clients gonna commit perjury you just would go into court and explain to the judge as an emergency matter that's caused it we were you could know how to represent this person and so you need to withdraw and someone else have to step in and take over and you'll do what you can to minimize that and help with the transition and so on but but the rules say specifically that you are to not represent that person because continuing to do so would be perpetrating fraud upon the court and so you are allowed to withdraw from that situation and there are notes where they actually explain these rules and it's kind of interesting about the rules professional conduct well they're kind of densely written and hard to understand they actually have explanations below them which most laws don't have but these do so a lawyer ordinarily must decline or withdraw from representation if the client demands that the lawyer engage in conduct that is illegal or violates the rules of professional conduct or other law so that's that rule so so again if the person is guilty that's not the problem the problem is if the person is guilty but says I'm gonna get understand and commit perjury and likewise if the person wasn't guilty and said I'm gonna stay to commit perjury you'd have the same problem so it's not their guilt or lack of guilt that's that's the issue here it's that they want to get on the stand and commit perjury okay and there might be other problems you can imagine where a client could want to involve or do some kind of actions that are just repugnant to the law or the rules of the court and in those situations you may also find yourself in a situation where you need to withdraw now here's the question that more people are concerned about I think than anything else is someone comes into your office they go look I need to hire you here's the bag of money okay all my stories involve the bag of money cuz it's such a great visual big cloth go nice sack tight bag tied at the top dollar sign on the front and you can heft it and feel the weight of those hundred-dollar bills and bundles okay there's only one back there imagine like 50 pounds of hundreds you know put that on your desk there you go there you go or hey that's yours just do a good job it's yours no matter what happens it's yours so you don't ask and they don't tell you whether or not they did it and and that's kind of a funny concept and you think about it I had a professor at Law School a very very good guy and he did some court appointments over the summers once in a while just to kind of like keep his claws sharp and he told our class one day he said that he walked into a jail cell to meet with his client for the first time and on a really really ugly set of facts and before the guy opened his mouth he said Shh let me explain to you how it looks to me and then I'm explained to you what I think those best defenses are here and I'm gonna want you to think about them for a little while and tell me which one applies to you and that's how he dealt with it now here's the thing we all know that that somewhere down the road you're gonna sit down with the client and give you the bag of cash and they're gonna tell you a story and you're gonna find yourself the back your mind going you know I think they did it but you don't want to ask them that right is he gonna ask the facts you know what's a situation but keep in mind that your client does not have to testify and in fact you don't want them to testify you almost never want them to testify so they're not gonna testify what they have to say about their own defense is limited in that sense in other words don't tell me what you would testify because you aren't testifying now you can tell me some of the facts and the things that might mitigate against you being guilty but while you're talking the person you might come to the realization this person did it you know they know what they know too much they've still got the bloody knife in their hands you know that kind of thing and so you're realizing this person sitting in my office is probably a murderer they're probably a murderer with a lot of money but murder nonetheless and so I had people say Steve for you to defend that person to things is it moral and is it ethical is it ethical and see that's the situation number one let's address the ethical situation I had a lot of people ask me when I was going to law school and say I'm going to law school become a lawyer people didn't know I was gonna go into lemon law I didn't even know that myself necessarily and so they said Steve you know if you defend somebody who's guilty how I could how do you sleep at night knowing that and I smell you know something the reason I sleep at night doing that is because everyone deserves a good attorney even Charles Manson deserved a good attorney you know OJ Simpson deserved a good attorney yeah everyone in America deserves to have fair legal representation who's gonna help them through the process okay so so we've heard of people got railroaded for having bad attorneys we don't want that to happen to people okay this is America so one of things you get is legal representation Gideon versus Wainwright and and that's something you're guaranteed by the Constitution okay so the idea that I'm gonna represent somebody and and walk through the process Eve if they're guilty there's nothing unethical about that and there's nothing immoral about that I I view that as something that is the job of an attorney if you're accused of a crime remember that until you are convicted by definition you are innocent until proven guilty so that person you are representing is innocent and has an innocent person they have the right to an attorney okay so morally there's nothing wrong with it but let's get the legal aspects of it so you become convinced that the person sitting before you is guilty as the day is long they haven't admitted that to you and they are not gonna get in the stand of testify they're gonna sit next to you like a lot you know like a bump on a log and do nothing during the entire trial just sit there okay and people are gonna testify both sides are gonna call witnesses experts DNA surprise witnesses each more surprising than the last you know everything okay a full trial but there's gonna sit there do nothing okay the rules of ethics specifically say that an attorney even if they believe their client is totally guilty has the right to make the prosecution jump through every single hoop to prove their case and this comes from the rule three point one on meritorious claims and contentions a lawyer shall not bring or defend a proceeding or assert or controvert and issue their end unless there is a basis for doing so that is not frivolous now I could talk about that for weeks and I might do another video on that cuz I've encountered frivolous defenses all the time and I've seen frivolous lawsuits get filed as well and they shouldn't because it's unethical that part of the rule is almost never enforced but a lawyer may offer a good faith argument for an extension modification or reversal of existing law that's how you can get somebody files a lawsuit and they lose we understand we lost because the law is wrong we're gonna take it up an appeal try to change the law but a lawyer for a defendant in a criminal proceeding or the respondents in a proceeding that could result in incarceration may so defend the proceeding as to require that every element of the case be established okay and there's a comment like I said they have comments to these rulz The Advocate is a duty to use legal procedure for the fullest benefit of the clients cause so long as you're not abusing the legal procedure so the point is that you might know your clients completely guilty but as your client sits there your clients innocent your client could be proven guilty but the job of proving guilt is theirs it's not your job to defend it in the sense of who's got the burden of proof they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt if they can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt your clients not guilty so the onus is on them they've got to prove them guilty her guilty beyond reasonable doubt and so it's kind of like sit back and go fine you think you can prove my client guilty knock yourself out i'ma make you jump through every single hoop every single roadblock I can put in front of you I'm gonna pick your case apart completely to make you do your job so the prosecutors got to prove my guy guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and I have the right to defend my client using everything that is ethically and legally allowable under the court rules in the law so the guy comes in your office says I need you to defend me even if he's guilty or she's guilty they still get the full boat as far as the defense goes the only problem you really encounter is if the person will just tell you yes I'm guilty and I want to get understanding commit perjury want to help me at that point I can't and they say what about if I give you another bag of money you have to say no I'm sorry it's not that bags of money at this point it's unfortunately the rules don't allow it now the question that I think many people are thinking right now is they go Steve I had a question for you we all know there's been situations before where somebody who is really really guilty put on such a vigorous defense or perhaps the person even got on a stand and testified how is it possible that the attorney didn't know the client was lying that's where you getting the gray area because when I talk to my client our conversations are privileged you don't know what we talked about so unless a client or to later come out and say by the way I committed perjury and he helped me chances are the attorney can say with a straight face I had no idea the guy's gonna get up in the stand a lie I you know I how do I know these are lies it's his I wasn't there unless that's your clients alibis I didn't do it my attorney did hey that I just that I just thought of that one now that's a good one but the point is this it would be a very very hard thing to prove it and I've I've I've rarely seen it or heard of it I'm sure it's happened before but generally speaking the idea that that your your guys guilty and and I'm gonna help him get off you know legally some of that imputing some guilt to me it's never it's it's almost never going to happen so especially if my client never takes a stand okay then it's pretty much just I'm making the prosecution jump through all the hoops cross all the t's and dot all the i's and cliche all the cliches and once they get at that point if a jury comes back and finds my guy guilty beyond a reasonable doubt well you know something I did my job they did their job and now my guy goes to prison and I get to keep the bag of money but I can keep the bag of money with a clear conscience because I did something that the rules of professional conduct allowed me to do so Matthew I hope that answers your questions otherwise questions or comments put them below doctor you

Channel: Steve Lehto

Views: 35,391

Keywords: lemon law, michigan lemon law, lemon law attorney, lemon law lawyer, http://www.lehtoslaw.com

Id: ktAspDBuIHQ

Length: 17min 21sec (1041 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 08 2019