Introduction: Welcome to Calvary Albuquerque. We pursue the God who is passionately pursuing
a lost world; we do this with one another, through worship, by the Word, to the world. Sean McDowell: Well, I'm glad you're with
me tonight. I was told the Wednesday night crowd was lively. [cheers and applause] All right, good. We're actually jumping into a pretty sensitive,
pretty sensitive subject. I teach at Biola University in a graduate
program in apologetics, and before that for ten years full-time I taught high school. And I'll never remember---this is at a Christian
school---a student came in during lunch and he looked really troubled and bothered. He said, "Mr. McDowell, can we talk?" I said, "No. It's my lunch break. Come back . . . ." No, I didn't say that. I'm kidding. [laughter] I said, "Yeah, what's going on?" He sat down. He looked at me. He was a sophomore, so he wasn't in my class,
but I had him as a freshman. And he looked at me with trouble in his eyes. He was a Christian kid. He said, "I think I'm losing my faith." I said, "Well, what's going on?" He said, "Last night I was fishing around
on the Internet and I came across this atheist website, got into a conversation with somebody,
was invited on their radio show. And this national radio show host basically
used me as a punching bag to raise all his challenges for an hour. I couldn't answer any of it. I don't even know if I believe this anymore." I said, "Well, take at a step back. I'm happy to help you with this." And actually what happened for the next six
months, he'd come in at lunch, in the morning, during seventh period, and we'd just talk---how
do we know the Bible is true? how do we know God exists? what about evolution?---and then he stopped
coming. So I went and I found him at lunch and I said,
"Hey, we were having this great conversation. You stopped coming. What's going on?" He said, "You answered all my questions. I'm good to go." I thought, "Awesome. Check it up, you know, this is fantastic." Well, fast-forward two years to his senior
year. We're at a retreat up in the mountains. It was outside. There's a fire and the pastor was talking
about forgiveness. He let people leave, but he said, "You can
stay around if you want and just pray and connect with God." Well, most students left and I see this student
sitting there. So I went up to him and I noticed he was crying,
but this was an intense, just troubled cry. I came up to him, I said, "Hey, what's going
on? What's bothering you?" He looked at me, he said, "Mr. McDowell, do
you remember a couple of years ago when I came in and asked you these questions?" I said, "Of course." He said, "I was actually hoping you couldn't
answer my questions." That took me by surprise. I said, "Why did you hope I couldn't answer
them?" He looked at me, he says, "Because I think
I'm gay." And then he said something to me I will never
forget. He said, "I can't keep living because my life
is a living hell, and I can't die because think I will go to hell." Friends, I sat there, I thought, "Oh my goodness,
the trouble and despair that this seventeen-year-old young person was feeling." It hit me more than ever that so many people
in the church and outside the church in our culture with same-sex attraction feel out
of place. They feel rejected. They feel alienated. And many of them feel like they're uniquely
condemned by God. Proverbs 18:13 says, "If one gives an answer
the before he hears, it is his folly and shame." Friends, as Christians, we've often had quick
answers and sometimes simplistic ones, but on this issue we need to be willing to be
compassionate and empathetic and try to understand as profoundly as we can. There's a writer by the name of Andrew Marin. And he moved his family into Boystown, Chicago. Now, why Boystown, Chicago? It was voted last year as the "Most Gay-friendly
City in America," higher than San Francisco. He wanted to move his family in there to build
bridges with what he described as the gay community. He said, "I want to talk about Jesus. I want to reach out to them. I want to build relationship." So he moved his family right in there and
started getting to know many people that lived there. In his book Love Is an Orientation he said
this, he said: "Unless you have been sexually attracted to someone of the same sex you can
never fully grasp, as a heterosexual Christian, what that means." And in reading his book he asked a few questions
that I started to reflect upon and think for myself. He said, for example, "How would your life
change if you had same-sex attraction?" Maybe some of you do. But for those who don't, how would your life
change if you found that you had same-sex attraction? Second, how would it affect your relationships? Third, how would it affect your future? And, fourth, how would it affect your faith? I simply ask these questions because when
we try to understand, it helps us have more compassion and more empathy for those who
have same-sex attraction. Now, why pick on this issue, right? I mean, as soon as I'm on a radio show or
as soon as I meet somebody and they find out I wrote a book on this, the first question
is: "Well, why are you picking on this issue, aren't all sins equal?" Right? Isn't that what we tend to think on this issue:
"Aren't all sins equal?" Christians are picking this one and beating
people up over it. Well, I wrote a book a few years ago called
Is God Just a Human Invention? And it was a response to a lot of the New
Atheist critiques of Christianity. And Christians were reading it and I thought,
"How can I get atheists and skeptics to read it and have conversations about it?" So I called up the largest skeptical group
of Orange County where I live in Southern California. I said: "My name is Sean McDowell. I wrote this book. I'd be happy to come to your group, just sit
in the hot seat for a couple hours, bring everybody a free copy of the book, and just
answer whatever questions you'd like to ask a Christian." You know, I don't know about you, but that
actually sounds like a lot of fun to me. [laughter] I don't pretend I have all the
answers. I'm well aware that I don't, but that wasn't
my goal. And they asked me all sorts of interesting
questions. At the end I said, "Could I have fifteen minutes
to just ask you questions?" And I could have said, "You don't believe
in God, how do you get morality without God?" I couldn't have said, "Where does the universe
come from if it doesn't come from God?" I could have said, "How do you explain the
resurrection?" But instead I said, "I'm a Christian. I think Christianity is true, and I'd like
to persuade skeptics that it's true. But what bad impressions do Christians leave
that prevent us from even being heard?" And I remember one guy in the back. He said, "Stop the atheist jokes." I thought, "Man, I've got some good ones." [laughter] Actually, he said, "Stop slandering
atheist." He said he would go to a church somewhat frequently
and just watch from the back. And he said regularly he would hear cheap
shots against Christians or some other non-Christian group. Another guy raised his hand. He said, "Stop the hypocrisy." I said, "Well, what do you mean?" He said, "I have a friend who goes out and
gets drunk, but then he always rails against the immorality of homosexuality." And they're right. They're right. It's not lost on many people in our culture
that we don't have rallies at DC against gossip. The Bible has some strong things to say about
homosexual behavior, but it also has strong things to say about divorce. It has strong things to say about idolatry
and lust and greed. The Bible speaks on these. David Kinnaman who is the president of Barna
Research Group, he wrote a book called unChristian, and he studied nonbelievers how they view
Christians. He said, "Outsiders say our hostility toward
gays---not just opposition to homosexual politics and behaviors but disdain for gay individuals---has
become virtually synonymous with the Christian faith." Friends, how did this happen? And he's right. I teach at a university, but I still teach
one high school class. And I got tired of seeing my students graduate,
go into the university, and then have a professor pick apart their faith. So I get together with a friend of mine. I said, "We need to take our students the
most godless, secular place we can think, and bring in atheists, agnostics, let them
speak to our students." So this past February I took a group of twenty-two
high school students to Berkeley. [laughter] And we brought in some atheists,
some agnostics, and we brought in a friend of mine who is in his eighties, just the most
kind, just grandfatherly soul you would ever meet. And for six decades he described himself as
a "gay activist." And I invited him to speak to my students
and help us understand his story and where they're coming from and allow us to ask questions. I said, "I'm curious, you've been doing this
a lot longer than I've been alive. How would you and your friends describe Christians?" He looked at me and spoke two words I'll never
forget. He said, "The enemy." And I just stopped, I thought, "Now, wait
a minute, Jesus said to "love your enemies." Jesus was "a friend of sinners." And, yet, somehow in our culture if you say
you're a Bible-believing Christian, in the minds of the majority of people, you're hateful,
bigoted, intolerant, homophobic, and as one guy called me, "Talibanic," for holding that
view. So the question is: Why on earth would I speak
on this and why on earth would I write a book on same-sex marriage? The answer simple: I just wanted to make lot
of friends. [laughter] Actually, before I started to speak on this
and to write a book on it, my wife and I had a long conversation. I said, "Do I really want to talk about this
issue publicly? Do I want to write about this and go on radio
shows and have debates?" It's a lot easier not to, isn't it? And I kept coming back to a passage in Acts
when I looked at the apostles, because the apostles saw Jesus in person, and they were
willing to die for proclaiming the name of Jesus. You look at the beginning of Acts and what
happens, they're threatened, they're thrown into prison, they're beaten, and they're told:
"Just stop talking about Jesus and we'll let you go." In Acts 5:29 Peter says, we can't because
"We must obey God rather than men." Friends, I fear God more than I fear men. We have to speak compassionately and carefully
and thoughtfully, but we must speak truth. So are all sins equal? I asked my ten-year-old son, I said, "Son,
do you think all sins are equal?" He looked at me, he said, "Well," he goes,
"I don't think so. Lying to my friend is not the same as murdering
my friend." I actually agree with him. All sins aren't equal. The Bible doesn't teach that. All sins are not equal. In fact, it says in John, chapter 19, Jesus
said to Pilate, "Therefore he who delivered me over to you has committed the greater sin." In Matthew 23, Jesus said the Pharisees had
"neglected the weightier matters of the law." Degrees of punishment in hell and the words
of heaven show that sins and righteousness acts are not equal. In fact, it says in First Corinthians 6 that
sexual immorality is the one sin you commit "against your own body." Friends, sins are not equal. Now there is a sense in which sin is equal,
and it's that any sin can eternally separate us from a loving and a holy God. In that sense, sins are equal. In fact, in James 2:10 James the brother of
Jesus said, "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable
for all of it." That's a sobering word. Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and
fall short of the glory of God." One the reasons I think we Christians are
sometimes harsh and judgmental on this particular issue is because we think we're more righteous
and we think we're better than other people. I think if we were truly in touch with our
own sinfulness, our own fallenness, our own desperate need for God, and our brokenness,
we would have a lot more compassion and sympathy for all nonbelievers. Amen? [applause] At a press conference Billy Graham
said: "I'm going to quote the Bible now, not myself, but it [homosexuality]," referring
to behavior, "is a sin. But there are other sins. Why do we jump on that sin as though it's
the greatest sin? The greatest sin in the Bible is idolatry. Jealousy is a sin. Pride is a sin. All of these are sin. But homosexuality is also a sin and needs
to be dealt with and needs to be forgiven. That's why Christ came and died on the cross." And he's absolutely right. Now, so you might sitting there going, "Oh
man, why is this such a big issue? Why can't we just agree to disagree on this
issue? "Maybe we disagree on the age of the earth. Maybe we disagree on the mode of baptism. Maybe we disagree on the role of women in
the church. Why can't this issue be one of those that
we just disagree on?" There's a very popular book and a movement
and a conference called the Gay Christian Network. And this author by the name of Justin Lee
has written a very thoughtful book. It's called Torn. He's a self-described "gay Christian" who
grew up in the evangelical church. And then he started this movement because
he now believes that God blesses same-sex unions if they're monogamous and faithful
to each other. In his book he said this, he said, "I wanted
to model for the church and the world that it is possible to live in loving, Christian
community in the midst of significant theological disagreements." Now I love his heart in this. We have to get over dying on secondary issues
and agree on the essentials. Right? But there's a certain assumption in what he
says, that issues of sexual morality are secondary issues we can just disagree on and go on our
way. Is that something that we can do? Now he's right, there's clearly issues that
Christians can disagree on. Paul talks about this in Romans 14. In verse 2 he says, "One person believes he
may eat anything, while the weak person only eats vegetables. One person esteems one day as better than
another, while another esteems all days alike." He's saying Christians can disagree on certain
issues. The question is: Is this topic one of them? Well, when I read the writings of Paul in
First Corinthians 6. And he says, "Or do you not know that the
unrighteousness will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral
[porneia], nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves,
nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of
God." Paul ties this issue of homosexual behavior
to those who enter the kingdom of God. That's a serious issue. Now in case you're sitting here going, "Oh,
this isn't my issue. I don't have sex with men like it's says here." Well, maybe you didn't read the rest of passage. It also puts it with idolatry and adultery
and stealing and being greedy and being drunk. So if you say, "Whew, I'm not like those people,"
but you get drunk, you're missing the whole point that Paul is making. Friends, this passage condemns all of us as
sinners before God. So what does the Bible teach on this? When I started researching this subject, I
felt such a sense of gravity to get this right. Because it says in Isaiah 5 verse 20, "Beware
of those who call good evil and those who call evil good." Friends, I've said to some of my friends who
think that God is totally fine with same-sex relationships, I said, "If you are right,
then I am calling something good evil. But if I'm right, you're calling something
evil good." See, the question is: Has God spoken on this
issue? Has God spoken and revealed a will, revealed
a design for how we're supposed to live? That's the question. So a while ago I needed help with my Internet
access, so I called up those nice operators from India who talk like this. Have you met these nice folks? [laughter] And he answered my question and I was about
to hang up. I thought, "You know what? This guy's job is to answer questions. You gotta think he gets some pretty stupid
questions." I mean have you ever had somebody say to you:
"There's no such thing as a stupid question." That's a lie. [laughter] I taught freshmen for nine years. [laughter] Well, I was about to hang up, I
said: "Can you tell me honestly the craziest questions you've ever received about working
a computer?" He goes, "Sure." He said, "I had a---I had a lady call up and
she was frustrated, confused, needed some help." He said, "What's the matter, ma'am?" She said, "For crying out loud, my foot pedal
doesn't work." Any guesses? [laughter] Yeah, she thought the mouse went
underneath the desk like when you sew and is a foot pedal. [laughter] He said, "I also had a guy call up, same thing." "I'm frustrated, I'm confused, I need some
help." And he says, "What's the matter sir?" He says, "My cup holder's not big enough to
fit my favorite mug." CD ROM drive or disc drive, exactly. [laughter] And then this last one happened
to someone very close to me. I can't say who it is because I would never
want to embarrass the woman who birthed me. [laughter] Well, my mom's come a long way. She now follows me on Twitter, which is-which
is weird and cool, but---no, it's cool. A while ago she got a new computer and decided---she's
one of those people that's very technologically handicapped---decided to set up her own e-mail
account. Well, one of the first instructions said,
"Close all the windows." [laughter] My mom got up from her chair, walked around
the house, and closed all the windows physically in the house. [laughter] Now you're laughing because you
know a little something about computers. You know the mouse is not designed to be used
as a foot pedal. You know the CD ROM drive is not meant to
hold your Calvary Albuquerque mug. And you know that when the computer screen
says "Close the windows," it doesn't mean the physical windows in your house. You see, a computer has been designed by somebody
very smart to function a certain way. And when we don't know that truth or we miss
that truth, what happens? Confusion, frustration, embarrassment, and
loss. But when we know the truth of the design and
we live according to it, we're actually set free. That's why Jesus said, "You shall know truth
and the truth shall." What? "Shall set you free." Friends, one of the biggest lies in our culture
is over the nature of freedom. If there is no God, then you and I essentially
are (lower case) god, and you're only free if you get to do whatever you want to do. But if there is a God, and he's designed us
male and female, and he's created the world to operate a certain way, then it's only when
we live within those boundaries that we will experience true freedom. Friends, when I read through the Scriptures,
I told my wife, I said, "Look, I'm going to be honest, I'm going to read both sides. I have books in my bag on all sides of this
issue right now reading on the airport in here this afternoon. I told my wife, I said, "I teach at Biola
University, and if I change my views on this subject, I would lose my job, but it's more
important we get this subject right, than I have a job." We have to get this right as a church. And as I read through the Scriptures, I notice
a few things. Number one, there's not a single passage in
the Old Testament or New Testament that supports homosexual behavior---not one. Second, until the middle of the twentieth
century not a single church leader, Christian or Jew, affirmed homosexual behavior as being
right. Third, every regulation in the Bible just
assumes male-female sex. That's just the assumption. Fourth, every proverb in the Bible assumes
heterosexuality. Fifth, even the Ten Commandments assume heterosexuality:
"Honor your father and mother," "Do not commit adultery," and then tenth, "Do not covet your
neighbor's wife." Let's look just quickly at three passages
that I think lay out a biblical perspective on this issue. And number one is right in the garden in Genesis,
chapter 2. God has designed sexual expression for all
people. It says, "Therefore a man shall leave his
father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Right at the beginning of the Scriptures we
see God's design, we see God's intent that a man and a woman leave their parents, who
are a mom and a dad, they cleave to each other and they become one. Now, some critics look in this and they say,
"Well, this chapter is just describing how it happened, but it doesn't apply to how we're
supposed to live today." Well, the interesting thing is Jesus commented
on this passage. Jesus was asked about the marriage issue in
particular in relation to divorce. And in Matthew 19 he said, "Have you not read
that he who created them from the beginning, made them male and female, and said, 'Therefore
a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become
one flesh'? So they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let
not men separate." But then you fast-forward into the book of
Leviticus and you see another passage on this. Leviticus 18:22 says, "You shall not lie with
a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Now notice it doesn't say the one who does
this (gays) are an abomination. It doesn't say that. It says the act itself is an abomination. Now, Justin Lee in his book Torn, he said,
"So scholars on both sides of the argument agreed that this probably had something to
do with cult prostitution. That made sense to me." In other words, he's saying this passage doesn't
really have to do with homosexual behavior per se, but in that culture homosexual behavior
was experienced through cult prostitution. So he was condemning the form of it today,
not the way it's practiced in our culture in the present. Well, let me ask you a question. This same passage in Leviticus also condemns
adultery, child sacrifice. Are those okay if we remove them from cult
prostitution? No. Those are still wrong regardless of whether
it's cult prostitution or not, right? In fact, Robert Gagnon who studied this, probably---he's
probably the foremost conservative expert. He said, "When the biblical writers rejected
homosexual cult prostitution, they were in effect rejecting the whole phenomena of homosexual
practice. They were repudiating a form of homosexual
intercourse that was the most palatable in their cultural context." And I think he's right. You see, when the biblical authors wanted
to condemn cult prostitution, they did it clearly. In Deuteronomy 23:17 it says, "None of the
daughters of Israel shall be a cult prostitute, and none of the sons of Israel shall be a
cult prostitute." Friends, Leviticus has a very powerful passage
about this. But, third, let's go to the New Testament. What about the book of Romans where Paul talks
about this? In Romans 1, a very powerful passage, Paul
says, "For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations
for those that are contrary to nature; and men likewise gave up natural relations with
women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with
men and receiving themselves the due penalty for their error." Now this describes homosexual behavior is
not natural. And powerful words like "shameless," those
are strong words that Paul used. Now, the key to understanding this verse is
looking at the larger context of what Paul is doing in Romans 1. See, if you look at the verse three verses
right before in Romans 1:18, Paul says: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against
all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the
truth. For what can be known about God is plain to
them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his
eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation,
in the things have been made. So they are without excuse." What's Paul saying? Paul is condemning the whole human race. He's saying, because God has made himself
evident in nature, we know God is powerful, we know God is good, we know God is self-existent. And then he points to the design between male
and female and says similarly we know there's a biological design, but people reject it. Now one common objection to this is people
will say, "Well, Paul was speaking of pederasty." Now pederasty is a very disturbing practice
that was common in the Roman culture at this time. Basically, a man would take a young boy, twelve,
thirteen, fourteen years old and quote "mentor" him, which meant he would show him certain
things in life to be successful, but he would also use him to have anal sex. These boys, twelve, thirteen, fourteen years
old, they were used that way by the men, and it was common, accepted in that culture. So I just read a pastor who wrote a letter
to his congregation last week, and he said that Paul was not talking about homosexual
relations as we have them today, he was talking about pederasty or cult prostitution. But the problem is when you read the passage,
what does it say? It says "men committing shameless acts with
men." This is not about pederasty, friends. And besides, there was no lesbian equivalent
of pederasty in ancient Rome. Friends, as I read the Scriptures, and I look
back as church fathers have dealt with the Scriptures, this issue is clear. But I've also found this: if we want to find
a way around what the Bible teaches, there's always a way to do it. In fact, some of the attention paid to reenvisioning
some of these passages reminds me of Genesis, chapter 3. "Did God really say . . .?" So what do we
do about this? In a minute---I asked if we could take questions
live, and you're going to bring up some microphones. You're going to have a chance to ask questions
of clarification, challenges. However I can help you through this issue,
I will do my best. But let me humbly offer just a few things
as a church, ways I think we can respond healthy. Number one: speak with tenderness on this
issue. Friends, speak with tenderness. There are so many hurting and so many wounded
people out there, especially on this issue. A couple years ago I had a friend who texted
me. He goes, "Oh, McDowell, you better see this
tweet that was sent out about you." I thought, "Oh, great." So I pull up this tweet and the tweet said
something to the effect of "Josh McDowell's son teaches kids how to love." Now in case you didn't figure it out, my dad's
been here a bunch of times, my dad is Josh McDowell. In fact, last week we just separated---separate?---celebrated
[laughter]. You meant what I knew. [laughter] We celebrated his seventy-fifth birthday. [applause] I told my dad, I said, "Man, Dad,
you're old. [laughter] When God said, 'Let there be light,'
you flipped on the switch." [laughter] But some guy sends out this tweet:
"Josh McDowell's son teaches kids how to love." So I click on it and I was in 2008 on this
panel in California at a huge church in San Diego when the whole Proposition 8 issue was
unfolding. You probably remember that. And I was asked a question live in front of
probably 5,000 people. And I answered with a story and then I explained
the story. Well, a friend of mine took the story and
sent it out to thousands of youth pastors all around the country, but he snipped my
explanation of the story. Well, he loved the story and he meant well,
but without my explanation I could have been saying a lot of different things. So this guy on his blog just rips me---I am
hateful. I am bigoted. There's dozens of comments and people just
ripping me in a way. I'm used to somewhat a public life getting
criticized, but this was deeper than ever. And I've learned that when I'm upset like
that, if I respond immediately, I'm just going is to say something un-Christlike that I regret. So, I take a deep breath, try to have a prayerful
attitude about it. I wait a whole day. [laughter]. And then somebody sends in the whole video. And what's amazing is how many people, including
Christians, crucified me without even having the context, which convinces me that many
Christians don't even care about truth. But then it shows the whole context. Half of them are like, "Oh that makes sense. I'm with him." The other half are like, "It's even worse. We hate this guy." [laughter] So the next day I decide I'm going to write
a letter to this blogger. And I wrote him a letter. I went out of the way to find common ground,
to be gracious, to be kind. I showed it to a family member of mine, not
my dad, and this family member said, "You need to be more firm and call him out for
his wrong behavior." I said, "You know what? It's not my job to correct somebody's behavior. Only God can convict somebody of sin. I'm going to speak lovingly but truthfully." He got my letter. He liked it so much he put it on his blog---without
my permission, but that's a separate issue. [laughter] And he said, "I disagree with this
guy, but when somebody responds tenderly and kindly, we should take note." It hit me, I thought, "My goodness," because
I haven't always responded that way, that's for sure. Don't believe me? Just ask my wife. [laughter] But I'm working on it and God's
transforming me. But on this issue, friends, me must speak
with tenderness. Second, do not allow gay jokes or comments. Don't do it. It needs to stop. In fact, if any of us in this room have told
gay jokes, we need to repent of it now. I have a young person I talked to recently,
and he said he found out he had same-sex attraction when he was about twelve. And he said, "I never told anybody for years,
because my youth pastor, my friends would talk about gays and they would laugh about
them. And that told me I'm not welcome here, and
if I share my struggle, they're going to mock me." I was at the Olympics in 1996 and---in Atlanta,
and I had a chance to work in a T-shirt stand, and we were selling T-shirts. And if you've ever been to an Olympics, it's
amazing the people from all over, all different parts of the world. I mean, people come from the most faraway
places, from China, from India, from Africa, from Texas. [laughter] And people wear flags of where
they're from because they're proud of it. And I was sitting here selling T-shirts and
this guy, I don't remember, maybe forty, forty-five comes walking up and he had a huge rainbow
flag just blazing across this sweatshirt. And I knew what that meant, but I don't think
of a better way to get in a conversation. Give me grace, this is eighteen years ago. I said, "Hey, that's an interesting flag. What country are you from?" [laughter] That's all I could think of. This man looks at me in the eyes and he says,
this is his quote, he says, "Oh, it's a queer thing." I said, "Oh, so you wear that so people know
that you're gay?" He said, "That's right. That's what the rainbow means." I said, "You mind if I you ask you a question?" He said, "No." I said, "You wear this publicly so people
see it. Do people walking by sometimes make insults
at you and degrade you because of this?" He looked at me and said, "Yes, it actually
happens somewhat frequently." And I just looked at him in the eyes, I said,
"Sir, I am so sorry that people would treat you that way. That's not right. I'm sorry." Have you ever looked at somebody and felt
like their eyes were truly a window to the soul? I remember, this guy was twice my age, and
I remember seeing this sadness. And he looked to me, he just paused. He said, "Thank you." He said, "You're the nicest person I've met
at the whole Olympics. Do you mind if I take a picture with you?" I said, "Of course." And you know why? Because I thought, "Maybe he's going take
this picture, put it on his fridge, and someone's going to see it and say, "Oh, don't you know
who that is? That's a Christian. They're 'the enemy.' "And he'll say, "No, no. He was kind to me. He was loving to me." Now, was I saying, "Hey, whatever choices
you want to make is great, whatever floats your boat"? No, I wasn't saying that. I was basically saying, "You're a human being,
and we don't treat human beings like dirt." It doesn't matter your race or your gender
or your social economic status or your age or your sexual orientation, human beings are
made in the image of God and deserve respect as image-bearers. [applause] That's why Paul says, "Let there be no filthiness
nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving." Third, preach the gospel, because change is
possible. Friends, I want to read you this passage I
read earlier, but what I left out was the end. In First Corinthians 6:9 through 11 it says,
"Or do you not know that the unrighteousness will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral,
nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the
greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you, but you were washed,
you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the
Spirit of our God." Friends, when I say change is possible, I'm
not saying whether somebody's born that way or not, or that God will change your sexual
orientation. The Bible doesn't promise that'll change somebody's
sexual orientation. In fact, I think when we look at the evidence
of whether somebody's born that way or not, I think we have to say the evidence to a degree
is ambiguous. It's probably some degree of nature and nurture. But I happen to believe my Christian and non-Christian
friends who have same-sex attraction, when they look at me and they say, "I didn't ask
for this. I didn't want this," I believe them in that. But the question is: What does the Bible call
us to? It doesn't call homosexuals to become straight;
it calls all of us to leave our sin behind and become holy. [applause] Friends, Paul
said change is possible. And, last, before we take questions, and I've
left a good amount of time, is if you're going to lovingly and compassionately speak truth
on this subject, be prepared to suffer. It might cost you something. In fact, not too long ago Joel Olsteen, pastor
of the megachurch in Houston, and I have some issues with his theology to say to at least,
but Joel Olsteen is a nice guy. I think he really believes it. I think he's just misguided in terms of Scripture. Well, he was on CNN and he was being interviewed
maybe two or three years ago. And it had nothing to do with this subject. And the host says, "Well, what do you think
about homosexuality?" And I about fell out of my seat because Joel
Olsteen says, "Well, as Christians sometimes we pick certain sins and we hammer them more
than others. The Bible says it's a sin, but we're all sinners
and need to turn to God." I thought, "Holy cow! That's a pretty good answer." Now my expectations were low, but it was still
a pretty good answer. And then the host turns back. He says, "Wait a minute, you're calling that
a sin? Who are you to judge?" He said, "I'm not judging. It's what Jesus spoke." He said, "No. You're judging," and he starts attacking him. And finally he says, he goes, "Well, what
would you say if Elton John was here. What would you say to Elton John?" Joel says, "Well, I'd say I like your music." [laughter] And I sat there, I thought, "My
goodness, we are called to be tender, we are called to be compassionate, but we're reaching
a point in culture where it no longer is our nation Christian, if it really ever was Christian,
no longer does it just tolerate Christianity, but now if you believe a Christian ethic,
you are the bad guy. You're the evil one. And it doesn't matter how lovingly you say
it and kindly and how nice you are, because Joel Olsteen is really nice, there are certain
people that want to silence you. That's why I wrote in the book Same-Sex Marriage,
I said, "The goal of the gay movement is not to get marriage, it's to silence dissent."
and you stand in the way of that dissent. Should we be surprised by this? No. Peter, First Peter 3:17 says, "For it is better
to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil." There's Christians in your state, you know
the stories, florists, bakers, photographers, lovingly just trying to stand on Christian
principles persecuted for their beliefs. Friends, we cannot stay silent on this issue. In whatever way God has given us, some bigger
platform, some smaller, but the Scriptures are clear. And if what Jesus and Paul and the Scriptures
teach is true, and we believe it is, it's actually us who teach that truth and who try
to model it appropriately who are doing the loving thing despite what our culture says. Amen? [applause] Well, let's do this. I know this might not be what you normally
do on a Wednesday, but I'd like to open it up for questions, questions for me, challenges. I don't pretend I have all the answers. We have a couple pastors up front, and if
you raise your hand, and particularly if you hold money up, they will find you that much
more quickly. [laughter] But could I ask this: time is going
to go fast, there may be a lot of questions, will you state your question as succinctly
and to the point as possible, so we can allow as people to ask questions, and I will do
my best to respond. So throw your hand up if you would like to
ask a question, and we'll see where this goes. I think they're going to have you walk down
the aisle and meet in the front, and then when this side's talking, the other side will
be finding someone else. Sean McDowell: Yeah? Female: So, Josh, I have a family member who
is a homosexual living with a man, and he has prayed the sinner's prayer and asked Jesus
to come into his heart. So, he wants to do the right thing and---spiritually,
but the whole flesh, you know, being weak is---seems to be his major problem. And he's always really worried about dying
and hell and, you know, going to hell. And so, you know, he-he---I don't always know
what to say when he calls me to talk about that. Sean McDowell: He calls you to talk about
this issue? Female speaker: Oh, we talk about the Lord
all the time. Sean McDowell: About---he talks about his
attractions and his --- Female: ---his attractions, his faith --- Sean McDowell: ---all the time with you? Female: ---how he wants to live for God, you
know, and---but he's still in this relationship. Sean McDowell: Okay. Well, I would say the first thing is I'm glad
that he feels the freedom to talk to you. I mean, that's huge. A lot of people who have the attractions that
he has feels like they're going to be rejected and they bury and it down inside. So, he's taken the right step. I would shower and just err on the side of
grace: listen, love, pray with him, support him. Affirm that he's not the only one who's gone
through this, that all of us in effect are born with a sinful nature and have desires
we didn't ask for. So, I would do everything you can to keep
that relationship going. Two other things: number one is I would try
to find some kind of support group for other men, not women, but other men kind of young
and old who find that they have same-sex attraction as well. And sometimes--- I'm glad he's talking to
you---but having other people with this same kind of burden that they can connect, they
can understand, they can relate to each other and strengthen each other just gives a certain
kind of soul satisfaction and support that you and I probably couldn't bring. Third, I'd actually recommend that he read
a book called Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill. Wesley Hill grew up in a Christian home. He was not sexually abused. He doesn't fit any of stereotypes that a lot
of people say cause homosexual behavior. He goes, "I have a good relationship with
my dad." But he found that he had same-sex attraction,
and he said, "What do I do about it?" And he talks about his journey and kind of
this struggle and how he fits in with the church and just so moving, so eye-opening,
such a powerful way to, you know, for him to read of another person who's probably in
his shoes. He says, "I want to follow God. Here's my struggles," I think would really
encourage him. So keep the relationship going, pour grace
and love on him. Second, see if there's a group. I don't know if they have one at this church
or not. I mean---he's saying yes, they do. Get him plugged in. That would be helpful. And, third, check out the book by Wesley Hill,
Washed and Waiting, I think would really, really encourage him. Female: Thank you. Sean McDowell: So, thank you. Male: How would you suggest to talk to Christians
who show more of a hate toward homosexuals? Sean McDowell: How would I talk to Christians
who show more of a hate to homosexuals? The first thing I would do is I would pray
for that Christian, because I think it's a spiritual battle that's going on and their
heart is not broken. Second, I would just---I would find an example
and I would talk to them. I'd say, "Man, you seem really hateful about
these people. Where does this come from? What's the root of this? Why do you hate them and not others? The Bible says we are all sinners before God." And I would---I mean, if somebody wants to
hate and doesn't want to change, there's nothing you can do to change that person. Right? Even some people walked away from an encounter
with Jesus, like the rich young ruler. So if this person wants to hate them, we sometimes
see the Westboro Baptists, I mean, clearly I think that's a hateful approach. How to do you talk to them? Well, they don't want to listen. They don't want to have a conversation. Pray for them and try to clean up the mess
of the damage that they cause. So I'd pray for this person. I'd try to build a relationship. And I would just try to have conversations
in so far as you can get to the heart of what's driving this hate. And even if you know people who have the same-sex
attraction, say, "Gosh, here you seem so hateful. I have friends who really wrestle with this. And it's actually this attitude that harms
them from being able to come and feel like they belong at church and feel like God loves
them. Do you care about all Christians?" I mean, I would try to just push back and
see what's at the root of it? So, thank you. I hope that helps a little bit. Male: Yes, I have a young relative in high
school who's developed a friendship with a boy who self-identifies as gay. He's becoming a family friend because he lives
in the neighborhood. And, you know, he and this relative of mine
are in high school together and share some classes together. So, he comes around and he seems like a very
pleasant young man, but he self-identifies as gay, and I want to witness to him. I'm thinking of challenging his self-identification
and just telling him, "I think maybe you're just at an age of exploration, you're young,
maybe you're more comfortable with the same sex than the opposite sex, but I don't think
you need to get locked into a gay identity at this age in your life." Sean McDowell: Now first off, I think everything
you're saying is true. The question is: Would this young person listen
and really take it to heart? And in my experience it's when that relationship
is really there, and the person knows that we care about them, that they're willing to
have these kind of conversations. So I would really first and focus---focus
on helping this young person as you would any young person feel like they belong, like
you care about them, you're building a relationship with them, they matter, they're important
to you. And then through time there may be time---through
time there may be the opportunity to have kind of those in-depth conversations. For me, if somebody's not a believer, and
it sounds like this person is, I wouldn't make homosexuality and their identity the
core issue that they need to overcome before they can get to the cross. I would talk about: Who is Jesus? Why did Jesus come? Do you believe in God? Now, if he brings up that issue, I'm not saying
skirt it and don't address it, but I want to get to the heart issue. If this person's not a believer, they need
to know who Jesus is, why Jesus died, and then when they have the Spirit inside of them,
God transforms us from the inside out. Male: Okay, thank you. Sean McDowell: So, thank you. Female: We've actually been invited to a wedding
now in October, my entire family. Like, do we go? Do we support? Do we take the kids? Do we explain before we go? I don't know, we're kind of confused. Sean McDowell: This is a great question. I'm so glad you asked this. In a---let me just give you some context for
this. A month ago I wrote a book on same-sex marriage,
and what we found is I was getting asked these kinds of questions everywhere. So other questions like: "What if I have somebody
I work with and that person is married to a same-sex partner and they're having a baby
shower, 'Come have a piece of cake, because we adopted,' do you go?" I mean, there are endless kind of scenarios
that we find ourselves in. How do we answer these? So we put in the end like fifteen or twenty
scenarios, this one included, to try to anticipate ahead of time before we're in that circumstance,
so we can respond as lovingly and graciously as we can. Now, here's the deal: I think on some issues
there's clear out-of-bounds for a Christian. I really do. But there's a whole lot of issues like this
in which Christians can disagree and try to operate on their understanding of Scripture
and on their conscience. So I have a friend I talked to, he said, "I
had a same-sex couple that got married. They invited me to their wedding. I don't agree with it. I think it's wrong. I think my friend knows that, but I want to
keep the relationship going. I have prayed about it and feel I have a clear
conscience to go." I look at him and I say, "Okay, that's between
you and that's between God. For me, I couldn't go. I wouldn't go." Why? Do you think I could really stand there and---or
sit there and be silent when the pastor at the very end before he announces the new couple
says, "All right, if there's anybody who has issues, speak now." [laughter] And it's not fair to go and speak up in the
middle of a wedding. I think that's even more wrong. So, I couldn't, because what is a wedding? A wedding is a public celebration of a certain
kind of union before God. Even people who aren't Christians are still
made male and female would desire of this institution called marriage, which is a God-ordained
institution. I couldn't go. And I also start to think, "What kind of message
does this send to my kids when they ask me someday, to other believers in the church,
and to the body of Christ?" Now, what some of you might be thinking is,
"Oh, man, you've destroyed that relationship." And I think, you know what? I think if we err on the side of really building
loving relationships, then people who know us and know where we're coming from, when
we get invited, the response is: "Thank you so much for inviting me to this special day. I know this probably is going to be one of
the most special memorable days in your life, that you would include me is touching. Now, you know that I'm a Christian. We've had these conversations before, and
we have some difference. I don't honestly think that I can go and celebrate
this, but please know that I care about you as a person, and I really hope that we can
continue this relationship." And if that relationship is really there and
that person knows it, I think chances are you're going to be okay and they're going
to respect that. [applause] Female: How do you respond to someone when
they said, "Well, I was born this way." I mean, what's a good way to answer to that? Sean McDowell: How do I respond? Female: Yeah. Sean McDowell: I basically look at them and
I go, I go, "Okay, how do you know that?" I'm serious. How does somebody know that they were born
that way? Now they might say, "Because from the earliest
memories I have when I was two or three or four, I remember having these kind of attractions. I didn't choose this." But that still doesn't mean that they were
made that way. In the past---or born that way. In the past few years one of the things we've
learned about child development is just the power of even our experiences in the womb,
moms talking to their kids. Even the health of the dad. There's a recent book that talks about the
health of the dad shapes the future, believes in health and brain development in the kids. So there's no way scientifically someone could
prove that out. So I would just simply say, "Wow, how do you
know that? Which is your study in which you show that
this is true?" And in my book Ethix, E-T-H-I-X, I have a
whole chapter on this. And I walk through the brain study by their
scientist named LeVay. There's a study by Dean Hamer. There's twin studies. There's multiple studies attempting to find
a biological root that somebody was born this way, and all the studies are ambiguous. It doesn't prove that. Okay, but the question would be, all right:
If somebody is born that way---in fact, I might ask---I might say first, "How do you
know that's true." Second, "Let me make sure I understand. Are you implying that any desires we have
that we are born with are morally okay? Is that what you're saying?" Because I have some desires I've always had
to hurt people. And I don't have big issues with this. [laughter] It's like, don't worry. [laughter] But, right? We've all been mad, like in a game, and thought,
"Man, I just want to hit that person," right? Okay, don't read too much into that. [laughter] I've had desires to take things
that aren't mine, to tell lies. Right? You don't learn this stuff. Some people say kids are naturally good. Well, they're just not parents. [laughter] Right? I mean, I would really say this precisely. Number one, how do you know it? Number two, are you really implying that if
somebody is born with certain inclinations or desires that that is necessarily okay and
moral? Because there's a lot of things that scientist
will say some people are born with an inclination towards anger, some people are born with an
inclination toward alcoholism. Does that imply that it's okay? And there's even a lot of "gay activists,"
and this is a term they use. And even Justin Lee in his book Torn he says
the evidence is ambiguous, it's probably some kind of nature and nurture. And then he says but even if we were born
this way, it wouldn't tell us whether that behavior is right or whether that behavior
is wrong. Female: Okay, thank you. [applause] Sean McDowell: Here's an interesting point,
though: almost all Christians whenever I do this want to ask "Are they born that way?" Almost every time I get to interact with gays
who are non-Christian, their question is different. They say, "Do you believe homosexuality is
a sin?" That's just a different question based upon
where we're coming from that seems to be very central for people. Yeah, go ahead, my friend. Male: Hi. I'm the leader of Identity Quest at Calvary,
which is a group of---support group for men that are struggling with same-sex attractions. I had a long struggle with homosexuality and
been free from it for several years now. And--- Sean McDowell: Praise the Lord. Tell---Dennis, did you say? What---[applause] Male: ---Mike. We also have a group here for women that is
led by Joyce Toler and we're actually---[applause]---we're actually starting tomorrow night. So--- Sean McDowell: Wow. Mike: My question to you is that for years
I've had this class and I barely have one or two people show up at the most each time. And I don't know how---I believe there is
a greater need out there for people that are struggling with this and they want help. And I don't know why people don't come. I don't know why they're afraid to step forward. And what would you suggest as a way to try
to get people to come? We have like 16,000 people that attend this
church in all the different services, and I know there's gotta be more people struggling
with it. Sean McDowell: Call each one of them personally. No. I'm just kidding. [laughter] First off, thank you, number one,
for your ministry and for sharing that. My---[applause]--- Praise the Lord for your
example and for your heart. And, second, thank you for having the courage
to stand and to go with this. Sometimes there's probably voices in your
head that say, "Do I want people to know? Am I going to be treated differently?" And I can tell by your voice that you know
the gospel's bigger than that. So let me ask a question: How many of you
did not know this support group existed? Let me see your hands. Okay, put your hands down. How many of you now know that this support
group exists? [laughter] Problem solved. Well, of course, it's not quite that simple. But some of it is just getting the word out. I promise you, I know a handful of people
here I've met from the past in different places, but I guarantee you there's people sitting
here right now that also have stories like yours. There's probably some people sitting here
right now saying, "I've never shared this with anybody." And they feel ashamed. They've buried it inside. They don't know how God can help them. They don't know what to do. They're afraid. So why don't you do this, and then I know
the church will come after me and help address this in a more formal way: tell us again how
they can get a hold of you or get plugged into this specific ministry. Mike: Well, it starts tomorrow. It's going to be at 6:15 and it's over in
the Plex. You could also get on the Calvary website
calvaryabq.org and look under Identity Quest and it will give the information about the
group. Also, we have in the foyer for the last few
weeks we've been having a stand out there that gives information about the group. Sean McDowell: Praise the Lord. Mike: And I would just like to see more people
come, because I know that it is a long struggle. And I do believe I have been delivered, not
only from the sin, but I also have attraction toward women now. And the sin didn't take long to be able to
be free from, because the Lord frees you from that just like he does any other sin. But getting the attractions is the thing that
takes a long, long time, because it's things you have to work on and it's a long struggle. It takes many years. But that is possible as well. So, it's not just that, you know, you can
be saved and you can be saved from the sin, but you can also change, and that is a possibility. I'm not saying God's going snap and you're
changed right away, there's a lot of work that you have to do to change that, but you
can be redeemed right away and be saved, you know, by the--- Sean McDowell: ---And your life testifies
to that. Thank you for having the courage to share
that and God bless on your ministry. Well, it is that time. I apologize. I would love to keep taking more, but I promised
them I would wrap up on time. But here's what I'll do. I will sneak out to my book table, say hi,
sign a book if you're interested, try to answer more questions. Help you any way I can. This is the one I was referring to simply
called Same-Sex Marriage. It's half the length of a normal book. It's a quick, just---because we're busy, right?---a
quick response to this issue. How do we lovingly and truthfully respond? And I found that Christians, we're afraid
of this issue. Islam and this issue of same-sex marriage
scares a lot of Christians. Those are the two. Friends, we have nothing to be afraid of. No matter what happens politically on this
issue, Jesus has still risen from the grave. Amen? [cheers and applause] I'm going to sneak out there. Would love to sign one if that helps. And then another I brought for students of
partakers called the Apologetics Study Bible for Students. I brought this in the past. And this issue of homosexuality, same-sex
marriage is one of them, including other ethical issues, apologetics issues, how do we help
young people answer these tough questions? And it has 120 questions in there, including
my favorite one: "If God made everything, then why is it wrong to smoke pot?" [laughter] That's a great question. Now you're curious, you're going to have to
pick up a copy. God bless you guys. [applause] Closing: What binds us together is devotion
to worshiping our heavenly Father, dedication to studying his Word, and determination to
proclaim our eternal hope in Jesus Christ. For more teachings from Calvary Albuquerque
and Skip Heitzig visit calvaryabq.org.
