Holocaust and Genocide Lecture Series - February 5, 2019 - Professor Christopher Browning, Ph.D.

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[ Music ] >> Good afternoon, everyone. Good things come to those who wait, and so we have long waited to welcome Professor Christopher Browning to Sonoma State -- and as of noon yesterday, I thought we were going to be waiting a lot longer. But he's here! All's good. Nevertheless, we persisted. And so, after 25 years of trying, we are honored to hear Professor Browning speak about ordinary men. Dr. Browning is recently retired from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where he was the Frank Porter Graham Professor of history. He has written many important studies of the Holocaust, including "Fateful Months," "The Path to Genocide," "Origins of the Final Solution," and "Remembering Survival: Inside a Nazi Slave-Labor Camp." This earned the Yad Vashem International Book Prize for Holocaust Research. Two of his studies have earned the National Jewish Book Award in Holocaust category. He has given expert witness testimony in trials of accused Nazi war criminals in Canada, Australia, and the United Kingdom. He has also testified at the Holocaust denial trials of Ernest Zundel in Toronto and David Irving versus Deborah Lipstadt in London. In 2006 he was inducted into the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Last year, Dr. Browning was the Schapiro Scholar at USC's Shoa Foundation Center for Advanced Genocide Research. This is their most prestigious fellowship. Scholarly literature on the Holocaust is extensive, but one volume stands apart for its contribution to our understanding of how the Holocaust happened. As Professor Browning states, "ultimately the Holocaust took place because, at the most basic level, individual human beings killed other human beings in large numbers over an expended period of time. Ordinary men considered the essential question of genocide. How and why do normal people become the instruments of genocide. What drives the everyday citizen -- your neighbor, you -- to become a perpetrator." This is the question that will be asked anytime we speak of genocide. You will undoubtedly hear it again from some of the distinguished lecturers in our series, including Peter Hayes and [inaudible]. Today we are truly honored to listen to Professor Christopher Browning. [ Applause ] >> Thank you very much and indeed, it's good to finally get to Sonoma. We've had various problems that have blocked this even taking place earlier. So I'm glad that it has finally occurred. Today I want to talk about in a sense revisit "Ordinary Men" and talk about it 25 years -- now it's about 26, 27 years -- after the book was published. Of course basically it was trying to get at the issue of Holocaust perpetrators. And one of the reasons why historians have struggled with the question of explaining the perpetrators is that in fact there isn't a single kind of perpetrator. There is no one model fits all kind of explanation. We have, when it breaks down into rough categories, we have the ideologues -- people like Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich -- the ones who were at the top with a very well worked out, concrete ideological vision that justified the Holocaust that to them in a sense made the Holocaust make sense. So for them motive is not great mystery, they did it because they thought that history demanded this. The next group we had were people who we might call the experts, the kinds of people that no modern. [ Audio Problem ] Okay, we're back on. No? Got the green light here. Are we back on now? No. How's it now? Trying once more. We do have it now. Okay. A second group that we have are often simply referred to as the experts, the kinds of people that are indispensable for the working of any modern government, modern society. Prime here would be of course the officer corps of the German Armed Forces that conquered the territories on which the Jews were killed. The Industrialists that basically built the equipment and the economy that enabled Germany to conquer Europe. We know also the medical profession that provided people -- like Dr. Mengele at Auschwitz -- but also all sorts of doctors who worked in one way or another with the Nazi regime, such as the euthanasia -- so-called euthanasia program. And then we have what I would call the middle-level functionaries, these mid-level bureaucrats that are in a sense the organizers of the genocide. The people that knowing what the leadership wants implemented figure out how to do it. Most of the leaders are not micromanagers. They do not sit there working out the details. This is done by the mid-level organizers and managers. Archetypal here would of course be someone like Adolf Eichmann. And then at the bottom of course there are the people that do the actual killing -- the grassroots killers, the face-to-face killers that run the death camps and manned the killing squads, death squads that roamed over Eastern Europe. And so these people participate in the genocide in very different ways, and therefore, I think we have to understand they're not going to be necessarily explained in the same manner. And certainly of these four groups, the group that was often hardest to track down, the hardest to try to penetrate for the historian were the face-to-face killers, the people at the bottom of the genocide pyramid of perpetrators. Because of course they didn't leave scads of written documents like the mid-level bureaucrats. They didn't give lots of speeches like Hitler at the top. So they didn't explain themselves or record what they were doing. They very seldom in fact wrote letters or diaries. And most of those that did, the families obviously did not keep those after the war or share them with historians. So we had a circumstance where tracking down and trying to get inside the minds and the lives of the face-to-face killers was a very, very difficult challenge for Holocaust historians. It was my good fortune when I was working at the archives of the Central Agency for the Investigation of Nazi Crimes -- this was the investigating agency that sort of organized and initiated most of the prosecutions of Nazi war criminals after the war and had, therefore, collected huge amounts of testimony. And then they would farm out the cases to the appropriate courts once they'd helped prepare them. I was working at that agency. It's a little suburb of Stuttgart called Ludwigsburg in 1987. And I was looking at all the cases that related to Poland. I was trying for my book "Origins of the Final Solution" to fill in a map of Poland where, after all, half the victims of the Holocaust are Polish Jews. But nothing like that -- the number of documents really didn't probe Poland, of course it was a mere fraction of that. So that Poland is vastly under-represented proportionally in terms of documentation. I was trying to fill in the missing gaps on the Holocaust in Poland. And therefore, looking at every indictment and every judgment of every court case that had come about in Germany that had been initiated by the Central Agency for the Investigation of Nazi Crimes. And that's when I came across the indictment of Reserve Police Battalion 101. And for historians, you have rare in your life these eureka moments when something that you hoped was out there but you had no way of knowing about how to go looking for the needle in the haystack suddenly and unexpectedly falls into your lap. And this was the case of the indictment of Reserve Police Battalion 101. And it was key for a number of reasons. In particular, I had long been working with perpetrators and always trying to find issues or documentation that would deal with the issue of choice. How much choice did people have. After the war of course, they always said, we were simply coerced, we had no choice. If we hadn't done as we were ordered to do, we would have suffered drastic punishment. Now, they could never -- the defense attorneys for people who claimed coercion could never once find a single case in which someone who had refused to shoot unarmed civilians had suffered any dire consequences. So they couldn't prove the case that, yes, you would have suffered punishment. But the historian needed the adverse. We had to find the case that proved they didn't suffer punishment when they refused or when they did not -- when they opted not to take part. And this is what happened when I was reading the indictment and the opening massacre that the unit is conducting in July of 1942. The troops are assembled outside the village of Eusefoof [phonetic], where they're going to end up shooting 1500 Jews in one day. The commander, Major Troph [phonetic], has to explain to the men what this is all about. They'd never had a killing action before. They'd come from Germany three weeks earlier. They're total novices. They had no idea about what this is all about. So he has to give them a speech. And in that speech he basically tells -- gives them a series of justifications for why they are going to shoot the Jews in this village. And at the end of that speech, remarkably, he says, to what was a group of middle-aged reserve police, if any of the men among you do not feel up to this, you can step out. And anybody who didn't want to shoot unarmed civilians that day was allowed to step out and turn in their rifle and absent themselves from the firing squads. And initially only about a dozen did so out of about 500 men. But that remained the rule of the battalion for the remaining years that it was in Poland. That no officer could force one of his men to shoot. Everyone knew that it was the rule of the major that people had the right to opportunities out. So the whole issue of coercion, of duress was gone. And the backup defense of accused war criminals has always been, well, maybe I wouldn't have been punished but I couldn't have known it at the time. And this was the defensive of putative duress: I thought I was under duress even if I wasn't. Clearly when the major is making an explicit offer, there was no duress and there was no putative duress. And therefore, this was going to be a case in which the two major alibis that cloud virtually every other investigation and trial were off the table. The other thing remarkable about the case as I went through it was that I was getting testimony that was so much more vivid, so much more in detail, so much more clearly truthful in describing the horrors of what the men were doing then I had encountered in the trial of any other killing unit. What normally happened was that people knew who the officers of these units were. They didn't know the men were. And the officers lied for one another. And what you get is a series of obviously mendacious denials in which they all just stonewall. But without any outside counter-testimony, the prosecution had a hard time piercing a kind of coordinated wall of denial by all of the officer defendants. What turned out in this case was that the roster of the battalion had survived and that the investigators of this group were able to go to Homburg, find all -- who had the 500 names, find 210 men who had been in the unit and interrogate them. Bring them in, interrogate them, sometimes many times over. And now you had rank-and-file men who had no interest in covering for their officers, no interest in being part of the conspiracy of stonewalling, and in many cases didn't like their officers and were willing to rat them out. And the prosecution also in a sense gave them a budge and said, we're not interested in you, we're interested in the officers, you're not the subject of this investigation. And the men talked much more vividly, much more in detail than I'd seen in any other case. So here I now had finally what I'd been looking for: the source base for the study of a face-to-face killing unit. Testimonies of 210 men of a single unit that was going to be in Poland from the summer of '42 till the Russians chased them out in 1944 and was deeply involved in the final solution, the killing of Polish Jews, from the day they arrived in Poland till the last main massacres in this region, the Lublin District, in the fall of 1943. So I certainly have come across this, went to Homburg, went through the 30 volumes of testimony, the 210 men that had testified and came roughly to some of the following conclusions. One in terms of the composition of this unit. If the goal had been to find a group of men who were not simply a random cross-section of German society but were a group of men who would be the least likely people in Germany to become Hitler killers, it would've been this group. And let me explain that. Age-wise, the battalion's average age was 39 « years old. This is a draft -- these people were conscripted in 1942. The war has now gone quite a while. This is the first time in which war-time service is imposed on people who were 35 to 48 years old. But they are too old for the German army. The army is not yet ready to use people like that. So they are drafted for war-time service but not in the army, so they're serving as reserve policemen, to do duty far behind the lines which wouldn't be so strenuous. So they're put into a reserve police battalion and sent to Poland. So their age, as I say, is 39 « years old. What that meant was they were too young to have fought in World War I. These are not people brutalized by the trenches. They were too old to have been in Hitler schools, Hitler youth, any of the socialization mechanisms by which the next generation was easily and quickly Nazified. These are people whose formative years were the Weimar Republic. They're raised in a democracy. They have a yardstick by which they can measure what is going on. These are not people who do not know anything except life inside the Nazi bubble. They have a life experience from living in a democracy against which they can measure what is happening at that point. When they're conscripted in 1942, of course one thing was that the military did not want to take people valuable to the economy. They're not drafting engineers constructing submarines in Homburg. They're drafting mostly unskilled labor not essential to the war economy. So two-thirds of this unit are going to be working class and they're going to be unskilled working class -- truck drivers, dockworkers, restaurant waiters, what have you. The lower middle-class members will be low-level white-collar workers -- sales clerks, office workers, and that sort of thing. Now, in Germany, the Nazis ultimately did get support from all across society. Hitler was not wrong when he said he had a People's party that encompassed all aspects of German society. But proportionately, the working class was most resistant. The parties of the working class -- the Social Democrats and the Communists -- lost the least folks to Naziism and were able to maintain their strong support up until they were outlawed after Hitler came to power in 1933. So the bulk of the battalion not only comes from an age group whose formative years were the Weimar Republic, they come from a social class that was the most anti-Nazi or least not seduced by Nazism before 1933. And indeed Homburg by the Nazis referred to and it wasn't a compliment -- referred to as Red Homburg because of the labor movement there and the working class movement there were very strong. And Homburg was a city where they did not do well in the pre-1933 political contest for power. So Homburg geographically was an area where the Nazis had been relatively weak. So if you wanted to pick a group, as I said, that was not a cross-section, not a random drafting of people from German society but were in many ways the most likely not to be willing executioners of Hitler, it would've been people from a city like Homburg, from the working class, and from an age group that was about 40 years old. And that's exactly what the composition of this group is. Now, they are set to carry out two kinds of key actions during the final solution. One was out right massacres. That is simply firing squad executions of Jews as they wiped out one village or another, either because these villages were too far from railways to put them on deportation trains, or the trains couldn't be scheduled because of the demands of the Eastern front and trains were not available. So they carry out a number of shooting massacres. They also carry out a number of ghetto clearing actions, rounding up Jews in one town after another and marching to the train station, forcing them onto the boxcars that are going to be sent to Treblinka, which is just about 60 miles north from where this group is operating, in what was known as the northern area of the Lublin District. So Lublin is here, Warsaw here, they're sort of two-thirds of the way towards Lublin from Warsaw. And they are heavily involved in both of these. The very first action they carry out, as I say, is the massacre of 1500 Jews in the village of Huzefoof [phonetic]. And from the testimony, I think it is very clear that this action came as a horrific shock to the men. Nothing had prepared them for this. They are traumatized by it. They are distraught. As one of the men said -- told the interrogators at that time, you know, I said to myself as I read through this again, I think would go crazy. And that was sort of the state of mind of many of them after the first massacre. That this was something for which they had not been prepared, trained, forewarned, and suddenly in one day out of the blue, they are shooting women and children in the forest outside of Huzefoof. And their uniforms are covered with blood, with the brain matter of the people whose heads they'd blown off at point-blank range in the forest. And, as I say, this is a traumatic experience for them. However -- and this is one of the discouraging discoveries of the research, was the discovery of just how quickly people got used to doing very terrible things. Though the first massacre may have been horrifically described in great detail -- they remember, you know, some of the people they killed as individuals. They remember the procedures of the day. Can tell about that day in great detail. Very rapidly the killing becomes a numb routine. That as each massacre proceeds, they remember less and less of it. They can't even remember the names of the towns any longer or what was particular about them. That once they get used to doing it, this basically not only loses any capacity to horrify them, but it loses any capacity to be remembered in any kind of particular way. So the speed with which they adjusted, the speed with which they became numbed, the speed to which they accommodated themselves to a profession of day-to-day killing was one of the very discouraging results that I came to. I also concluded from the testimonies that, over time, not only do they become increasingly numb, but the battalion basically broke into three rough categories of people in terms of how they reacted. One group of men, a plurality, nothing like a majority but a plurality, simply came -- learned how to enjoy killing people. They got increasingly high on what they were doing. They volunteered for firing squads. They volunteered for the so-called Jew hunts to track down Jews who had fled to the forest. And they would come back to a hearty lunch and joke and laugh about what they had done. There was a middle group that I would call the accommodators. The first group were what we call the eager killers, the ones that learned to enjoy killing. The second group were what I would call the accommodators, people that would never volunteer. Didn't enjoy their job. In fact often thought of it as dirty, as unpleasant. But nonetheless would do it whenever ordered but would never go out to seek the opportunity and never volunteer, but also would never do anything to avoid it. They did not take up the major's offer to excuse themselves because they didn't want to appear -- as we'll talk about a little more -- appear weak or get stigmatized as not doing their share. A third group are what I call the evaders, people who took up the major's offer either the first day at the speech or even during that day thereafter when they would present themselves to one of their noncommissioned officers and say, I can't do it anymore. Or later would make it clear that they weren't going to belong to a shooting unit any longer. Now, that meant that they weren't trigger-pullers, but they also continued to do other supporting jobs that made the killing possible. They continued to provide guards for the cordons around the shooting actions so people couldn't escape. They continued to participate in the roundups of the ghettos that would drive people out of their houses to the town square and march them to the train. So they continued to do essential jobs even if they weren't trigger-pullers. So when I say evader, they evaded the actual act of face-to-face killing but continued to do supporting actions that enabled other people to do the killing, even if they did not. In terms of those that didn't kill, the so-called evaders, overwhelmingly after the war in these interrogations, their explanation -- or I should say, even at the time they did it -- and they stuck with this explanation after the war -- was not to evade by saying that it was wrong or that it was immoral or that it was sinful. It was to say that they were too weak, to basically say, this job was too tough for them, they weren't tough enough to do it. Now, what that accomplished for them was two very important things. It meant they didn't criticize the regime. They were not criticizing the policy of mass murder. Nor were they criticizing their comrades who were carrying out that policy. They were taking on themselves the stigma of being too weak to do what they accepted as legitimate policy in order to not have to take part in it with the least friction with their comrades. That this perversely then of course in a sense validated what the others were doing. By saying, you know, I'm not tough enough to do that, they were in a sense labeling as strong and positive those that could kill and accepting upon themselves the label of being weak and inadequate in order not to take part in the killing. And that's how they carved out for themselves the space that would enable them to not be trigger-pullers but still remain a part of the community of the unit. Remember, this is an occupation unit deep in Polish territory. There no other society around them except the 500 men in that unit. And no one wants to be a pariah or be ostracized in that kind of situation. And so the way they avoided that was basically, as I say, taking the blame on themselves for not participating, not criticizing the regime or their comrades. So those are kind of the outline of the conclusions I made about the men when I went through these interrogations. But when I was done, I still needed a kind of broader framework, something that would get at the basic question that we had, and that is why did people as part of a unit do things they never would've done as individuals? Why did they become killers when they didn't have to be, when there was a way out? And so that in a sense was the bigger question behind describing what they did and what the dynamics of the unit were, was to try to find a more interpretive framework behind that. Now, at that time, of course one answer was to look at the psychiatry. The psychiatry is looking basically at individuals. And certainly the attempt made initially after World War II was to look at Nazis as abnormal and to diagnose them on the basis they're individual abnormalities. So we had the so-called totalitarian personality was one thesis that was brought out and others. And all of that I think was quite mistaken because these people weren't acting as individuals on their own. They didn't behave this way. That this was not a case of them being psychologically abnormal. Sociology at that point was not very helpful because there was sort of two things sociologists were contributing that. One was kind of the Bavarian study of bureaucracy, which was very useful for studying the middle-level echelon perpetrators. Those who were in a sense absorbed in their task, that they only judged themselves and what they were doing by how well they carried out the task assigned, not by how good was the task that they were in fact carrying well. In a sense they didn't set judgment on the higher purpose of what they were doing but only on how well they accomplished it. And also the fact that this task was -- the whole task -- was sort of segmented and subdivided. Every person was always through a very refined division of labor only responsible for one small segment. So they never had a sense of owning the whole thing. It was always they were just one -- the phrase then was just one cog in the wheel, one tiny little cog in a big machine for which they had no sense of personal responsibility. The other contribution at that time was the Polish sociologist Zygmunt Bauman, his book on Holocaust and Modernity. Who was trying to talk about the pathologies of modernity. We often look back on the Enlightenment and the modernization as of course being a very positive thing in rise of Western civilization. And he was pointing out in his book that there was an underside to this. When people basically think that man in fact has through their rational capacities the means of improving and perfecting their own lives, this is not something that is brought about by divine aid but is a man-made product. That the whole goal then in a sense to match ends and means, and, therefore, you can rationally choose what means will achieve a particular end. And he used the analogy that if you wanted to perfect your garden, you pulled weeds. And if you wanted to perfect mankind, you pulled human weeds. And that basically the whole mentality of deciding who should live and whose life had value for the Nazis was an exercise in radical modernity. That wasn't very useful to what I was looking at. My middle-aged policemen were not theorizing about perfecting mankind when they were blowing people's heads off. So neither of those approaches provided me with any kind of analytical framework. What did in the end provide that framework was social psychology. That is the study of how people react within a group, the dynamics of group interaction, of group behavior. And here, a number of experiments had been undertaken in the 1960s that provided some insight in terms of how people's behavior is shaped by virtue of being part of a group. Why people as a group behave differently than they would as an individual on his own. One of these is a conformity experiment of Solomon Asch, in which he demonstrated that people will go along under desire not to challenge a group opinion, a group norm. This is a famous experiment when you have a group of people and you usually have classroom format and the professor puts on the board, you know, three long lines of chalk and one short line, or holds up three sticks that are long and one is short. And you around the classroom and you ask everybody which is the shortest stick. And one after another of course the confederates all choose one of the long sticks and say it's the shortest. And then you finally get to the unsuspecting subject who has a choice. Either he can give you the right answer or he can give you the answer that conforms to the group. And overwhelmingly, the much greater propensity is not to challenge and confront your mistaken classmates and you confirm their error rather than say, you guys are all crazy, this is obviously the shortest stick. And assert your own ability to make your own judgment contrary to an open contestation with the people around you. So the conformity is a very powerful factor shaping group behavior. And there was of course the experiment by Stanley Milgram on what he called obedience to authority. I'd prefer the term deference to authority. Where an unsuspecting person subject is put at a control board rigged up to make him think that he is inflicting pain on somebody hooked up with electrodes. And that it is posed as a learning experiment in which the man at the board basically pushes buttons and levers that go in ascending order that start with mild shocks, medium, severe, dangerous, and then XXX at the end. And the man in the electric chair is of course an actor who's going to go through a prescribed response for each level that the subject moves to on his control panel. And the question for Milgram was in a sense, could someone with nothing more than a scientist in a white coat and a lab board -- clipboard -- telling him that what they were doing was essential for scientific progress and that if they didn't complete the experiment it would ruin the results. And that the experimenter, scientist, took all responsibility, all this man had to do was simply carry out the instructions that he had volunteered to do. He volunteered to be part of this experiment. And Milgram found that about two-thirds of his subjects would routinely -- not routinely because they in fact were quite upset about what they were doing while they were doing it but did it anyway -- would move to the very high end of thinking they were inflicting very severe pain on another human being. And they've replicated this experiment in various ways that confirms that someone will defer to an authority figure rather than assert their own responsibility. And it's only the minority that will walk out -- stand up and walk out or refuse to comply. And there was of course the Zimbardo experiment, prison experiment, that dealt with the issues of role adaptation. You took volunteers, you divided them in two groups. One group are the prisoners. The other group are the guards. And you simulate a prison. The prisoners are all there and the guards go in shifts. So the guards are always outnumbered. But the guards are urged to devise every kind of technique other than physically abusing their prisoners to gain control of the situation, to humiliate and dominate their prisoners. And Milgram -- sorry, Zimbardo wanted to see how far they would go, how far a randomly-selected group would become dominators of another group. He planned to go two weeks. He had to call it after one week because it was spinning out of control. And in terms of -- again, the dynamic here, interestingly enough, three groups emerged among the guards. They were -- of the 12 guards, there we two so-called good guards. Guards that when they didn't know they were on camera and thought no one else was watching what they were doing, would do acts of mitigation for the prisoners. But never wanted to be caught by their comrades doing this but would do it secretly. There was a middle group of guards that would get out their manual and follow the orders and do exactly what was prescribed, standard operating procedure. And then there was a dynamic minority that in fact from the beginning set out to invent ever new more draconic ways to dominate and torment their prisoners and to gain and keep the upper hand. And it was the dynamics of that group that finally had caused Zimbardo to call things off. People who very quickly putting on a police guard uniform, being empowered over others, very rapidly changed their behavior to adapt to the role that they had been given and then to in a sense exploit it to its full. To get high in effect on what that empowered them to do. So role adaptation, deference to authority, conformity, I found were all important factors that influenced the way people acted -- interacted with others as part of a group that were all useful for explaining the dynamic that I had empirically observed. That at first I wrote in a sense everything except the last chapter. And then said, how do we make sense of this? And then went through a number of different things but found social psychology perhaps the most useful analytical framework in explaining why so many of the men -- even when they have the option not to take part -- continued to do the killing that went on in Poland in this unit. And then I had to of course get the book -- having gotten the book written, I had to get it published. I was fortunate enough through a friend to get -- borrow his agent. Three publishers turned the book down. Two of them said it was a good book but a University Press book, this won't sell, nobody will buy this in enough numbers. One book I had somebody who had gotten out of bed the wrong day and said, my God, another Holocaust book. When are you people stop writing this stuff? And then the fourth one took it. So any of you aspiring authors out there, remember that publishing is a lottery in which an editor gets what is often a matter of luck of the draw. We then had to find a title. I had thought of the title Becoming Killers, and my editor said, no way. You can't use that. And I said, why? He says, well, becoming in English has two meanings. One is a transformation, becoming something. And the other is attractive. And he says, if somebody can misunderstand a word, they will misunderstand a word, and you don't want this book being, you know, good-looking killers. Incidently then, Jim Waller did take the title that I was going to use but he got -- and no one objected then. So it really was a false alarm, but it did mean that that title Jim got. But we hit then, after much of going back and forth, on Ordinary Men. That was by no means self-evident when we started. Once we had it, it seemed so obvious and you don't know why did it take us so long to get to that title. But in fact that was the very last thing that got settled before the book was published. When the book came out, there were a number -- it was generally well-received. In fact it continues to be used, so it's done well. But there were criticisms. And I think some of them had varying degrees of merit. And in a sense the post-publication history of the book is what I wanted to talk about now. What were the major lines of criticism? Which ones had how much merit and which ones did not? One line of criticism was one that basically argued that the invoking of social psychology was exculpatory. Now, social psychologists themselves recognize that when they try to provide social psychological explanations, others perceive that as a diminution of individual responsibility. Because they interpret it as being deterministic. And neither the social psychologists themselves nor myself agree with that accusation. Obviously when you're dealing with Nazis and you're accusing someone of being exculpatory, this is not complimentary to the book or the author of the book. And so the issue was, did that hold any weight? Was I letting the Nazis off the hook? Was I exculpating them from relieving them of individual moral responsibility by the interpretive framework that I had taken. And my argument is, no, that in each of those experiments that I cited, there are always some people who do not go along. That in fact those experiments showed that a third of the Milgram people say, no. And the Zimbardo experiment showed two of the guards basically are doing, you know, good things for the prisoners when they think they can get away with it. And that what you have in those experiments is our series of individuals each who is making an individual decision how they will respond to the test that the experimenter is putting them to. There's nothing deterministic in it. What it does do is allow us to predict roughly what proportions in the population will respond one way and what proportion will respond another. But it doesn't mean that those are merely reflecting a whole series of individual decisions made by individuals who are not relieved of their individual responsibility for the decision they take. Can you imagine somebody in a courtroom who's been convicted of vehicular homicide because he was driving while drunk, and he tells the judge, well, statistics say 50% of all vehicular homicides are caused by people under the influence of alcohol. So what could I do? It's predicted that I have to do this. Somebody's got to do it. I mean, that's not a moral excuse. That because we can predict that a very large number of drunk drivers are going to do terrible things does not mean you're not morally responsible for driving drunk. And this is the sense the false criticism that was being made of the book and trying to shape it as copping out and letting the Nazis off the hook. A second argument or criticism of the book was that Reserve Police Battalion 101 was not typical. And that I was making generalizations broadly from a case that was an anomaly. There is some truth to that. But I would argue, they may win one battle, but I will win the war in this. And let me explain why. As much more research was done on the police battalions -- once "Ordinary Men" was out there, in fact we began researching all sorts of other police battalions. We learned much more about them. And indeed I would argue there are three kinds of police battalions and one of them is not representative of more than one of those three groups. And then I'll try and explain why that's not terribly comforting. The first group all were reservists who joined the reserve police between 1937 and 1939. So for two years in Nazi Germany, before the war, they're going out every weekend and doing their training -- much like a National Guard. And they go to summer camp. And so they're getting training. They're getting indoctrination. Come to war in '39. They are pulled into full-time duty. And then of course they're given very intense training for at least six months, full-time training, lots of indoctrination. And of course the people who were taken into the reserve from '37 to '39 are basically people who were going to be much higher percentage of Nazi party membership and they were going to be indoctrinated as Nazis and so forth. So this is a group that by the time they are pulled together into battalions in 1939, 1940, are then sent out to the occupied territories, where long before the final solution started, they already are in practice in what I would call racial imperialism. They're already learning how to be instruments of German racial domination over other peoples of Europe. Increasingly they learn how to be brutal and show, you know, the local populations Germany's power over them. And it's only in '41 then that they are sent in to actually begin doing mass killing. So they are people that with a much higher percentage of Nazi party membership, then in 101. They are people that will have a long period of indoctrination, long period of training, much more selective in terms of being allowed in back in '37 to '39. A period of brutalization in which they get used to being the enforcers of the Nazi regime and occupied territory, and then are finally sent in to killing. These people are roughly in the early 30s. They're about eight years -- by average maybe seven or eight years younger than the average membership of 101. Then we have a second group. In 1939 when Germany goes to war, a lot of the army needs a large number of professional policemen to become military police, MPs. And so an agreement is made between the army and the police that the police will turn over to the army a large number of men to become military police. What they call feltron numere [phonetic]. What we would call MPs. In turn the police was able to select from a large pool of younger people being basically volunteering -- because this would give them a chance to get into the police which would have a later postwar career -- choose who they wanted from that group of young volunteers. Those people are then trained very extensively and they become in a sense the league battalions of the police. These men are in their late 20s, early 30s. They are very highly Nazified because they've been chosen out of a pool of a larger pool, very select, and they too have training, prior brutalization. They're in Poland and elsewhere before they go in to start becoming Holocaust killers. So in both those cases, you have people that have long periods of indoctrination, long periods of training, relatively high rates of Nazification, a period of brutalization in which they become used to being the enforces of the regime before they begin mass killing. 101 is in neither of those. 101, as I say, is an ad hoc unit, conscripted in 1942, when military -- compulsory military -- service is extended for people 35 and older. They are slapped together in Homburg with very little period of training, very little period of indoctrination. And that there is virtually no selectivity. Their average number of members of the Nazi party, for instance, are not higher than the population at large. So that in this case you have a group of killers unlike the first two cohorts this is quite different. Now, what's important here is that despite the fact that Reserve Police Battalion 101 was composed of people who were much older -- 39 « years old -- despite the fact that they had virtually no training, virtually no indoctrination, that they had very -- no particular level of Nazification, no prior period of brutalization. When you look at body counts by unit, of all the police battalions in the Nazi Third Reich, Reserve Police Battalion 101 was the fourth most deadliest battalion among them all. Even though they're a year later coming into action than many others, and as I say, come in without anything like the training and preparation of the others. But in the end, these 500 men kill about -- shoot about 38,000 people, take part in the shooting of others with them -- take part in the shooting of about 38,000 people and put on the train to Treblinka, about 43,000. They have a body count well into the 80,000s for 500 men. And, as I say, this puts them in a sense with the fourth highest body count of any battalion and certainly higher than any in the younger men, they exceed any of that second group that I talked about. So the reality is that, yes, many battalions did have Nazification, did have that careful selectivity in choosing the people in it, did have indoctrination, did have brutalization. But if your argument is that that is either a necessary or sufficient explanation for why they did what they did, then you cannot explain 101, because it didn't have any of those. So 101 may have been different, but we can take no comfort from the fact that 101 was different because it shows us that you can create a killer unit that is one of the most deadly of the battalions with none of that. And so in the end, I say, yes, it's atypical, but that is not a comfort, that is not a doing away with the importance of this battalion. In fact, makes it even more important because of its atypicality. It's precisely its atypicality that makes it an even more remarkable case study than it had been before we knew anything about all of the other kinds of battalions that took place. That took part in the final solution. Another attack, accusation, another criticism that was made was that I didn't pay enough attention to the issues of ideology and German culture. And this in particular was an argument that was made by Daniel Goldhagen in his book "Hitler's Willing Executioners." And because his was the main criticism of my book and he quite explicitly said his was a cultural, anthropological, ideological explanation, my book got categorized as the opposite -- situational, organizational, institutional explanation. I didn't think -- I hadn't pigeonholed myself. But because of the direction from which that attack came, mine got labeled as the opposite. So we got these two books who were presented as a kind of dichotomy. Either you have a cultural explanation that says Germany is a culture that was in a sense prepped for genocide. That I think his phrase was, Germany was pregnant with genocide for 500 years and Hitler was the midwife that gives birth to the genocide. And that the Germans, because of their culturally-embedded, murderous anti-Semitism -- his terms was elimination of anti-Semitism -- killed with gusto and enthusiasm. And basically described the eager killers -- I think mistook the part for the whole described everybody with descriptions that would have been appropriate for the eager killers but not for the battalion at large. And his claim was I simply ignored the cultural and ideological side. Well, I hadn't, but I hadn't given it anything like the prominence that he did. Because he dismissed the social psychological interactive side entirely and said this is the one -- the sufficient and necessary explanation is German culture. Now, one of the most important and I think useful contributions to the debate in the post-publication period after his book -- after my book and then his book, which came out four years later -- was a contribution by a social psychologist named Leonard Newman. And he argued that was so totally a false dichotomy. That in fact you don't have a situation that is a blank tape that is a tabula rasa. That anybody in a situation is in a situation that they construct, that they act in a situation depending upon how they interpret that situation, how they read that situation, how they understand that situation. And that means that they're looking -- well, how they read that situation depends upon the cultural lenses through which they're looking. Think back to the Milgram experiment. The average Western person with great, you know, value in science can be hooked by the scientist in his lab coat saying, this is important for science. Put a New Guinea Highlander in that situation and say, this is important for science, and he says, what's science? He comes to it with a totally different cultural outlook that will not be -- will not read that situation in the same way. Now, that's an extreme example, but it does -- what Newman what was arguing is I think quite right, that situation and culture are inseparable. Because you will read the situation you're in, respond to the situation you are in, in part through how you see that situation as is shaped by your cultural assumptions. So the notion that, you know, that there is either this one or that one I think is wrong. And Newman was bright enough, knew how to explain it. I only wish he'd done that before I wrote my book, but I couldn't come to that myself. But I'm very glad that he put that on the table later, because I think it is a very essential element to add. That in fact we're not talking about either a cultural explanation or a situational explanation, because those two are intertwined and inextricable. The last criticism that was made, also by Daniel Goldhagen, was simply that I'd been duped. That we had both read the same testimonies, both read the same policemen testimonies, and that I'd been snookered by the false accounts that some of the policemen gave and that he had avoided that trap. His argument was that you must not use any testimony that has the potential to be self-exculpatory. Any testimony that could be interpreted as letting yourself off the hook basically is suspect. Anything suspect you must kick out, because you can't let yourself be fooled by a Nazi in any of this. And so he has a very high purist test about evidence, that only people who admitted they'd given themself to Hitler mind, body, and soul could be trusted to say, you know, when they confessed, that you could trust those confessions. And everything else had to be discarded because of the potential to be self-exculpatory, particularly if they were in error in one area or untruthful here, then you had to discredit everything else that they had said as well. My argument was as follows. That these testimonies really come in sort of three, again, rough categories. One of those categories is transparently mendacious testimony. Much of this testimony, particular by the officers, Goldhagen and I can both look at and we immediately dismiss it and say, this is such obvious lies that no serious historian would pay attention to any of this. Then there's another band of testimonies that is so self-incriminating, so horrific in what it admits that these people did, that that nobody would make that up and self-incriminate themselves. Nobody is lying to make themselves look that bad. And so highly self-incriminating testimony we both agree you can use. But there is a broad middle band of people who tell some of the truth some of the time but not all the truth all the time. In particular, they will tell a great deal of truth about what the unit did but will not tell the whole truth about what they individually did. Now, for a historian, because he's not telling me what that person himself did but telling me all sorts of valuable stuff about what the unit did, I say you can't throw out the baby with the bath. A historian has to use that material because it's extraordinary and, I mean, this is a major part of the testimony. To exclude that and to say, I won't use that because I won't risk being duped by a Nazi is too purist. And that I insisted on using it and taking the risk of using it, but of course using it critically. Historians always have to look at their evidence critically. There is no unproblematic evidence out there. If we could only write history on unproblematic evidence, we'd have damn little history. So of course you have to use historical critical methods. Of course you have to look at it and compare what this person says compared to the other, what sort of sense of plausibility you get after reading through 210 different stories and so forth, to make how you make your judgments about what you will trust in a testimony. You're never going to be infallible. But it's better than throwing them all out in some kind of fit of purity. So I incorporated that kind of testimony, and the result was that I came up with a very different description of what drove these men than what he did. I would argue in fact that if you have a hypothesis that the Germans killed because they believed in the necessity and the justice of killing Jews -- this is ideologically driven, they're doing this for ideological reasons. And you take only the testimony of the true believers who believe that Jews should be shot and exclude everything else, you can come to no other conclusion than to confirm the hypothesis the evidence is meant to test. If you cannot disprove your hypothesis, you've got a methodology that is guaranteed but not guaranteed to persuade, it's guaranteed to confirm your own prejudices or your own suspicions. And that's not valid social science. You can't devise a methodology that can't disprove what you're trying to test. Now, I think that's what Goldhagen basically did. Now, in addition to what I think is the highly flawed methodology on his part, there are some propositions concerning our differing descriptions of what the men did that can be tested by reference to other evidentiary sources that have nothing to do with the policemen. That is we can look at the same phenomenon from a different -- certain cases from a different body of evidence which cannot be impeached by saying, these are mendacious policemen. And let me give you two examples of two of the propositions on which we differ. He basically -- I basically said, the men are transformed by what they're doing. After the first killing -- which was terribly traumatic -- many of them very quickly become eager killers, others become numb. And that the issue is, can people be changed so quickly? Goldhagen said they came to the killing fields with these attitudes, this is what was imbued in them by German culture, and nothing changes. And those that said they felt bad after the first massacre again are self-exculpatory. I argued they're transformed by what they do. They're changed by how they behave. Now, we do have the case of a series of letters, not from Police Battalion 101 but Police Battalion 105, the city of Bramon [phonetic]. So it's exactly the same type of people. A north German city of reservists pulled out and very similar to 101. And we have a series of letters that a man who was the photographer for Third Company in this battalion -- which was in Lithuania, Northern Front in 1941 -- writes back to his wife basically every week. And so we can see, we can track week by week how he changes in terms of how he writes about what's going on. Right before they enter Soviet Union -- first of all, this battalion had been in Norway. Now, Norway, you want a cushy assignment, it is, you know, sitting in Norway in 1940. They get taken out of Norway in the spring of '41, sent up and then they're sent into Lithuania. So this is going to be a real change. But before they go in, the first thing the commander does is to read to them the so-called Secret Orders -- things the Germans had to pass on to the rank-and-file soldiers orally because they didn't want anything in writing that would be captured by the Russians in which they explained some of the policies they're going to carry out, including the execution of captured Communists who were not going to be treated as POWs, or collective retaliation and these sorts of things. His response -- this is on June 24, the day before they cross the border, three days after the war breaks out -- the major said that every suspect is to be shot immediately. Well, I'm in suspense. The gentlemen fancy themselves very important and marshall. He doesn't get it. He thinks that the officers are putting on a kind of bravado show and that all of this new policies are simply sort of high talk. And then of course they go in, July 7 they are in a town where they're stationed for a short period. And he writes and describes things about the Jews there for the first time to his wife. The Jews are free game. Anybody can seize one on the streets for himself. I would not like to be in a Jew's skin. They have no food. How they actually live, I don't know. We give our bread and more. I cannot be so tough. Oh, and then he goes on. One can only give the Jews some well-intended advice, to bring no more children into the world, they have no future. I mean, he can foresee that if you're not going to feed a whole population sometime down the line, this is not good. But this is before the massacres begin. But the key thing here, I cannot be so tough. And basically he's feeding his two Jew servants that they have, he and his buddy picked up. One month later, August 7, now the mass killings are underway, and he writes back, one month later -- first of all, the first part of this letter, he's telling his wife all the food packages he's sending back. Because of course they're looting everything they can get and sending back the spoils. So he's so sending back various goods and he says, he helps [sic] it all tastes very good. And after hoping they have a good meal, he then writes this. Here all the Jews are being shot. Everywhere such actions are underway. Yesterday night, 150 Jews from this place were shot. Men, women, children, all killed. The Jews are being totally exterminated. And then he goes on to say, say nothing about it to their child. Don't read this part of the letter to their daughter. So he's, you know -- two things here. One, there's a little bit of shame. Don't tell our daughter about this. And secondly, it's in the anonymous passive. It isn't we're killing Jews. It's not I'm shooting people. Here Jews are being shot. Now, this was the common formulation after the war in virtually every interrogation. Always the anonymous passive. Somebody else did something, but it's never me. And here we see it even at the time that it's actually happening. Here all the Jews are being shot. As they move into Lithuania thereafter, increasingly they're meeting partisan activity. And he begins to talk about the Russians with words like beasts, dogs, trash. Then -- he's the photographer. And he says they captured some partisans, they had an execution. And he laments that he wasn't there to take pictures because "it was said to have been fun." And then finally, he does get an execution and he gets the pictures of it and then he writes his wife this. Remember earlier he said don't talk to the daughter? He tells her about filming an execution and in the future my film will be a document and of great interest for our children. So people can get drastically transformed. I mean, you can trace the degeneration that goes on in these letters in a case where just the process you can visibly watch week by week as you read these letters. There's one argument in fact where a source totally different than post-war testimony. This is current letter writing. Shows in fact dramatically how much people can be changed by what they're seeing and what they're doing. A second proposition that we differed on was, do these groups actually break into three groups. He said they're all -- 95% of these people are eager killers. And my notion that there was a significant group of people that were evaders, he just dismissed as fantasy. Said, if you'd had that many, the battalion could not have functioned. He didn't provide evidence for that, he just announced it as self-evident. Now, we do have a case where we can look at the internal dynamics of how a group of policemen breaks down. And this comes from a very unusual source. And this is Oswald Rufeisen. Oswald Rufeisen was a Jew born in Silesia. Now, Silesia is that border territory of Polish German mixed population. Jews there did not speak basically Yiddish as their home language like Poles further -- like Jews further east. And he was raised Krakow. He spoke fluent Polish, fluent German with no accent. Further east, a Yiddish speaking Jew opens his mouth trying to speak Polish, and everybody knows immediately that he's Jewish. Oswald Rufeisen was fluent in Polish, fluent in German. When the Germans invade in 1939, he flees Silesia and gets to Lithuania. Now, the Germans come to Lithuania in 1941. So he flees Lithuania and goes south into what is present-day Belarus. He's now a 17-year-old boy. He's walking across central Belarus, and he's intercepted by the Belarusian police captain from the town of Mir. Now, Mir was famous for having Hasidic school studies and so forth. But this was also the site where a man named Semion Serafinowicz, the Belarusian captain, intercepts Rufeisen and asks for his papers. And Rufeisen says, my papers were stolen -- which was quite plausible, these things happened. And then he explained who he was. He said, I'm a half German, half Pole. I had a German father, Polish mother from Silesia, and I fled to Belarus. And the fact that he speaks Polish and German fluently without accent made all this perfectly plausible. And the police captain, Serafinowicz, says, oh, that's useful. The Germans are coming to set up a police station in town in a few weeks. You'll come and be my translator. So the Jew passing as a half Pole, half German is brought into the household of Semion Serafinowicz and lives in the house of the Belarusian police captain. Two or three weeks later, the Germans arrive. They are a contingent of 14 reserve policemen from North Germany. Almost identical in their composition to Police Battalion 101. Under a man named Sergeant Hein. Sergeant Hein of course meets with Serafinowicz. Rufeisen is the translator. And Sergeant Hein immediately takes a liking to the young boy and says, you'll come and be my translator. So Oswald Rufeisen lives in the house of the Belarusian police captain at night and by day takes his meals and sits at the right hand of Sergeant Hein, conducting all of his business with the native populations for which Sergeant Hein needs a Polish translator. And so he from the inside for eight months lives basically day by day in the German police station and sees all that goes on and is in a position then to tell us about the dynamics of that group. And of course as a Jew, has no reason to be exculpatory about Nazi policemen. He has no reason to hide. Whatever one might say about the testimony of the policemen, Rufeisen is not covering for them. I would say Rufeisen -- I'll just finish the story, part of the story first. Of course no one knows he's a passing Jew. And so in the summer of '42 when he tries to warn the ghetto that the ghetto is about to be liquidated and they should run and flee to the forest, some of them think he's tricking them and trying to provoke them. And then report him to Sergeant Hein. And Sergeant Hein calls Rufeisen in and says, after I've been so nice to you -- it's almost like a europa [phonetic] relationship. Sergeant Hein is very found of Rufeisen. Calls him in and said, how could you betray me when I've been so kind to you? First he said, did you do it? And he said, yes. And then he said, well, how can you betray me? And Rufeisen says, you must understand, I didn't betray you, I'm a Jew. And Sergeant Hein says, oh, well, that's a problem. I'm going to have to think about that. So he leaves him in the office with the back window open, walks out the front door, and lets Rufeisen bolt out the window and escape. Rufeisen survives the war, and he was the eyewitness and I was the historical expert witness at Serafinowicz's trial in London -- or magistrate's hearing in London in the early 1990s. So this is how I got much of my story from Rufeisen. And Nechama Tec has also written a book about him, called "In the Lion's Den." So Rufeisen, we know a great deal about. In any case, what did -- Rufeisen survives the war. What did Rufeisen say about the German police? Basically he said they broke into three groups. One were four policemen who were the eager killers led by Corporal Scholz [phonetic], who he said was a best in the form of a man, who kept a notebook in his back pocket where he kept his body count. And had personally killed 80 adults. He didn't even bother to keep track of children. He'd killed 80 adults by the time Rufeisen fled. And they volunteered for all sorts of actions, killed as many people as they could. There was another group that would not take part in Jewish killings. As he says, this is the nonparticipants, another four. So there's as many eager killers as they are evaders. He says, no one seemed to bother them. No one talked about their absences. It was as if they had a right to abstain. So if you said, I'm not going to do this, nobody was going to court martial you. They just said, okay, we have enough to do it, stay home. And then there were a middle group that Rufeisen calls the passive executors of orders. And here he writes, "It was clear that there were differences in their outlooks. I think that the whole business of Jewish extermination they considered unclean. Their operations against the partisans were not in the same category. For them a confrontation with partisans was a battle, a military move. But a move against the Jews was something they might have considered as dirty." So he came up with the same breakdown that I had. Mine was based on reading the 210 testimonies and using the critical methods of historians to sort all of this out. He came to it by his own personal observations, having been there on the spot. So in terms of where we can check this, I think I can confirm that my interpretation can be backed up by other kinds of evidence for some of the major conclusions that I came to. There are several other angles we can take on this as well. One is kind of the comparative one. Now, one reason the study of the Holocaust has been very useful is that it's so well documented. We know much more about the Holocaust than virtually any other genocide. And in fact if one tries to find out and do studies of, you know, the genocide of the Armenians, you can't even get into the Turkish court records. They don't accept that it happened. If you're trying to go back and deal with, you know, Southwest Africa in 1904 and Herero, you know, good luck. So for historians, the difficulty has been finding out enough about other genocides to do a kind of comparison. The one area where we can do that and where it's become possible to do that is Rwanda. And I was very fortunate when I spent a year at the Holocaust Museum in 2002, 2003, that there was a psychiatrist from Rwanda -- a man named [foreign]. You won't be tested on that name after. Who was at the museum because he had become very involved in the whole issue of the psychiatry and psychology of killers. And his background was very interesting, that he had one parent was a Hutu, one parent who was a Tutsi. He had one sister who was in jail as a Hutu Genesee [phonetic] there and one sister, a Tutsi, who'd been murdered. So his family was just absolutely, you know, split. He had no reason to be favoring one side or another. After the genocide, he goes into the refugee camps on the Uganda border to try to use his medical training to deal with the trauma of the survivors. So he's trying to come to their aid, trying to help them heal. And then he realizes, in this town there was also a prison where many of the Genesee [phonetic] there are held. And it occurred to him that this was a unique historical opportunity for him in fact go in and to use his psychiatric training to deal with a collection of genocidal killers who were awaiting trial. So he asked for permission to go into the prison and he got it, and then he gave out two what he called surveys or questionnaires. The first was basically an opportunity for people to self-report on how deeply implicated they'd been in the killing. Now, it may well be that some people who were deeply implicated didn't answer truthfully on that. It's hard to believe anybody who wasn't implicated did answer that they were. So he didn't have a complete set of deeply-involved killers, but he had I think an uncontaminated pure set of people who had all confessed, self-reported as being deeply involved in the killing squads. To that group, he then gave a second questionnaire. And the questionnaire was one that he put on every question he could think of that would be key to some kind of motive, to try to allow him to find correlations between the questions and the motives they involved and how these have been answered. And when he got the questionnaire back, he said it was unlike any other questionnaire he'd ever circulated as a professional. And that almost all the questions was a flat line, no significant correlation. And in two clusters of questions, it just simply spiked off the charts. So he had a flat line and two big spikes. Now, the first cluster of questions that spiked off the chart is correlation between self-confessed killers and motive, had to do with how they framed or talked about the people they had killed. And that is they weren't people. That they had dehumanized their victims. They talked about Tutsies, that they were cockroaches, they were vermin. They'd been engaged in a purification process. They had not been murdering fellow human beings. So the dehumanization capacity, the ideological framing of what they were doing, to be something other than killing fellow human beings, had been key to allowing them to do this. So basically a dehumanization of the victim was one area where he found very high correlation. The second was questions that related to the importance of the esteem of their comrades. Were they held in high regard by their comrades? Had they been tough? Had they carried their weight? Had they done their share? Had they gone beyond and above what is expected of them? To be valued by and esteemed by your comrades, to have done what you should and more was very crucial. So part of what was in this was how they dehumanized the victim, the ideological side, part of it is the need for affirmation from their comrades to be valued, esteemed, praised by them, and that comes from the group dynamic that I've been talking about. So here was a case that had nothing to do with the Holocaust, but I think in which we can see there are some remarkable similarities with the Nazi killers, the genocide of the Jews under the Nazis. One other development I'll just touch on briefly because I know we're running late here, would be the attempt to cast this and particularly the ideological side in somewhat wider framework. So much of the ideological question has focused on anti-Semitism. How anti-Semitic were the killers? And more recent research has said, what other factors in terms of if we go back to Newman, shaping the situation, would explain why people not only killed Jews but why they would kill Roma and Centi [phonetic] and Russian prisoners of war and massacre local villages. These people were often equal opportunity killers, they're killing everybody, not just Jews. Jews are the biggest numbers because that's the policy of the government. But their capacity to kill and kill, we can find repeatedly. And so the argument particularly of a man like Thomas Kuhne at Clark University is to say, what other things explain this moral revolution, this change in moral norms, that allowed people to do this without thinking of themselves as criminals? To detach normal moral concepts that they would have for their relations with others, but not to be applicable in these cases. And he says, in German culture -- and so here we're getting to the particularities of German culture. He thought two concepts in particular had more resonance in German culture that led to a more intense group identification that would expel -- to use Helen Thie's [phonetic] term -- expel others from the community of human obligation. And you're measured by how well you do for your group, not how well you do for humanity, how well you are loyal and operate by a group dynamic, not by individual conscience. And these two were comradeship and the German term, the [foreign], which can be translated as the people's community or the racial community. It's a word that has no exact synonym or equivalent in English. But the comradeship was something that came out of World War I. If you've ever read, you know, [inaudible] Western Front, and his stories of the trench war. In the end he says, the only good thing about the war was the comradeship. This is the one redeeming factor. Now, in the '20s, Kuhne points out, comradeship in a sense was fought over. Whose concept of comradeship was going to win? There was the view that [inaudible] expressed, all the trench soldiers have comradeship in the trenches against their evil governments and evil officers who send them to be sacrificed like sheep to the slaughter. The other comradeship is a racial comradeship among Germans, and everybody else is outside the circle of German comrades. The Nazi's appropriate comradeship to of course the racial part and they win. And all the resonance the notion of comradeship had -- comradeship had, basically is harnessed to creating people who feel they have obligations and loyalties only to their group and that no moral limits apply to what they do to people outside that group. A second is this term [foreign]. Germany had been a very divided, tense society before World War I. When the war breaks out, the kaiser gives his famous speech. He knows no parties, he knows no religions, he knows no classes. He knows only Germans. And there was this kind of euphoric sense of unity. And after a long period of division, internal tension, Germany is kind of high on this sense of unity, of this community. After the war, again, the Nazis and others fight over who gets to use the term [foreign] and what meaning will it have? In 1914, it had an inclusive meaning. Everybody is in -- Protestant, Jew, Catholic, Social Democrat, Conservative, worker, middle class. It was a conclusive notion. What the Nazis do is capture, appropriate that term, and turn it into an exclusive term. You define the [foreign] by who is not in it. Roma and Centi are not in it. Jews are not in it. Mentally and physically handicapped are not in it. Asocials are not in it. And so it's good Germans that are in it. Again, you create a community that has this morality that extends only to itself and does not apply to those beyond. When you do things to those people beyond, it's not like you were doing it to people that mattered. And so killing people outside that community, particularly if you're killing them for the sake of the Reich, is not only not a crime but it is a necessary action. And often even described in terms of self-defense. So he was trying to make us think wider and think more about wider aspects of German culture than the continual focus on anti-Semitism, to understand the inverted morality of Nazi Germany that allowed it to become such a killer regime, not only of Jews but of many others as well. In any case, that's where things have gone in the now 27 years since "Ordinary Men" was published. Anytime, you know, you can publish a book, you're glad it gets published. If you publish a book that remains part of the conversation for that long, it is especially gratifying. So I'm very glad I could share that with you today. Thank you very much. [ Applause ] Yes? >> You mentioned Goldhagen. One thing that. You mentioned the Goldhagen book and I wanted to ask -- mention that Goldhagen did not address -- one area that he did not address -- and I wondered what your opinion of it was -- was the extensive effect that the propaganda had on the German society, especially in the period just before assumption of power and up through the war years. The continuous portrayal of Jews as vermin, as [foreign], and so forth. I was wondering what effect that had outside of the poisoning of the -- the anti-Semitism over centuries, outside of that. >> The difference would be, he basically thinks the Nazi regime was not transformative, it simply unshackled and unleashed the Germans to do what they always wanted to do. Therefore, the propaganda simply reflected what they already believed. My view is the regime was very transformative. That you create the Nazi bubble where it's very hard to to have -- particularly for the younger people -- you have no outside reference by which to judge this. And so the younger -- and we know of course the Nazi's very strong particularly in the younger generation, because they have no other signpost, they have no other yardstick by which to measure what's going on. And the phrase of one of men in Police Battalion 101 was -- you know, he didn't think of himself as anti-Semitic, because he wasn't an activist and go out and, you know, buy their sterner or hound Jews in the streets. But he did say, it was the air we breathed. I mean, how did you escape it? It was everywhere. You grew up in a society in which the assumptions were Jewish evil, Jewish inequality. And for him it was the air we breathed, was his expression. And so I think clearly that has an effect. To say for Goldhagen, it didn't persuade because somebody told them they already believed. I think that saturation over time of course narrows your capacity to have other ideas, to see things from another point of view. In contrast to that, for instance, the lieutenant who is one of the people who evades -- and he was a merchant, did overseas trade from Homburg -- he said, I had friends in other cities outside of Germany, I had another perspective. >> Thank you. >> Sorry. Which student was raising their hand? >> Jew -- or half Pole, half German, excuse me. >> The question was, what was the book about, Rufeisen? It's Nechama Tec, T-E-C, and it's called "In the Lion's Den." And it's really the story -- she interviewed Rufeisen at length. He becomes interesting because when he hides in a convent -- it becomes interesting for other reasons as well. He actually becomes a Catholic convert and then is the man who tries to exercise the right of return to the state of Israel as a Catholic priest. And he ends up in Haifa where he ministers to a Catholic community. But he viewed himself as both a Jew and a Catholic. >> Thank you. >> You had talked a lot about the process in which these ordinary men became killers. Like I was just wondering if you had looked into the process of them after the war, if they, you know, lose the structure and it almost like deteriorates. Or do they feel guilty after? >> Yeah. Often I'm asked -- just amplifying the question -- do these men experience post traumatic stress syndrome, for instance. And the answer would be, not that I can tell. One, of course they come back from the war as -- men who come back from war, there's a high divorce rate, because the men have been changed in many ways. And some of the wives who were interviewed said, now I understand why my man, my husband, was so different when she's hearing about the trial. For the men themselves, it would appear that they managed to repress this and bury it very deep. Of course all the society around them was repressing it and burying it very deep. The Germans were framing things in the post-war period, they were the victim. The victim of Red Army rapes. The victim of the bombing. The victim of expulsions, the Germans from Eastern Europe. The victims of Hitler. They're victims of the occupation. We poor Germans, we're just getting -- everybody's dumping on us everywhere. So they had their own victimization syndrome that allowed them not to deal with the underlying issue of what they had done and why. And everybody kind of agreed on this amnesia. So no one -- you know, in the Vietnam War, of course we had the opposite. Poor people coming from Vietnam getting shouted at, how many babies did you kill? And it was thrown in their face. It was very different in Germany. Everybody was agreeing to go along with, let's not talk about it. What happened when the interrogations began and these people are called into the police office, a number of the men remarked -- not a large number but enough that I think it was very significant. Said, now that you are forcing me to call all this up and to remember it and talk about it, now I am having nightmares. For 20 years they didn't have nightmares. But if they're forced to talk about it and to bring it back up to the conscious level, now I'm having nightmares. One of the men committed suicide before -- he jumped out of his window before he could go in for a second interrogation. The police car had come to get him and he just leaped to his death. So I think the interrogations were more traumatic because it broke the repression. And rather than post traumatic stress, what you had was a very effective repression that was very broad up until that point. What I did not get in any of or virtually none of the interrogations was any sense of guilt. What was the overwhelming ethos was self-pity. In 1942, I had the bad luck to get sent to Poland to be in a killing unit, and now 20 years later, they've changed the rules and I had the bad luck to be considered a war criminal. Poor me. Nothing about the victims, but poor me was the predominant ethos in this. >> I was just wondering if you would see the same kind of three categories of the men in like in the actual German army, or if it was just kind of more in the reserved units? >> I don't know for sure, but certainly the suggestions are that that is likely as well. I had a grad student who did a -- who was a West Point graduate that served in the Army for five years, then come to graduate school in North Carolina. And he did his dissertation on the German army's participation in killings in Belarus. Which is one of the areas where the most intense killing took place. He came across one case where there a company gets the order to join a killing action and there's three platoons in the company, and the three lieutenants act in different ways. One's very eager and says yes. One says, my men won't do that. And one says, do I really have to do it? Him-haw and then finally, okay, if that's an order, we'll comply. So you had three different companies with three different leaders each -- one in each of those three categories. So in that sense I think that that probably is the spectrum that you would find in the Wehrmacht as well. >> In the last two years, I read in the New York Times and The Guardian quite a few interviews with ISIS fighters and their families, especially in the UK. For example, a family that their son joined ISIS and the relationship -- and there were testimonies of those who -- a few Americans were able to drop ISIS and come back. So a lot of what you described really resonated with those interviews. Maybe the edited facts were that in ISIS there is a culture where before they go into major killings, there is a lot of using hallucinating drugs. That the men and the women are really numb when they do it. The other fact of course that they're young people and not older people. The other fact that strikes me was that in ISIS, if you don't participate, you are being shot on the spot, or there was the feel. But overall, it did resonate a lot of the three groups, the extreme groups that really volunteered. And the families are very, very traumatized with that. So I just wanted to add that. >> Thank you for the comment. I would say that perhaps ISIS is more comparable to say the NAZI SA, which are made up of self-radicalized, self-selected people. But even there, I think you would have a spectrum of degrees of involvement. But that's much more voluntaristic. These are Middle East conscripts. So in that sense, there's some similarities but also some differences we should keep in mind. >> Were there any evaders who used a moral reason for not agreeing to kill? >> One person cited, well, he was an old socialist. So it was kind of a political, you know, grounding that he was an anti-Nazi. Sadly, no one cites Christianity or religion as having -- it just isn't referenced. There's total absence of, you know, were you a church-goer, how Christian do you think of yourselves. I mean, unfortunately, for the historian, traditional interrogators don't ask all the questions we wish they would ask. Because their job is to find evidence in the courtroom, not to answer puzzles about motivation, particularly about people who are not going to be among those who are being charged. So there is almost none of that. There's a couple of hints at it. As I say, one guy, who said, well, you know, I had a different perspective because I did work around outside of the country. One said, I'm an old socialist. And that's about it. >> Very briefly, very quick question. Kind of a generic question. Do you think genocide, the prerequisite for genocide, is dictatorship, or do you think it could arise in a democracy? >> In so far as a democracy is based upon notions of equality and human rights, if it is a living democratic culture, no. If it is a populist manipulated democracy which is there to give the appearance of legitimacy of popular support, while not in fact honoring the ethical groundings of democracy -- which is human equality -- then, yes, those regimes could. [ Applause ] >> So I know that as far as with Naziism, there was a real big turn to females being back in the home, their role was at the home and not exactly like in the bureaucracy of the state. But do you know if like any areas where women, females, were more involved in Nazi Germany? And do you think that if there had been more female involvement, do you think it would've been the same outcome or perhaps slightly different? >> Okay. I very explicitly -- well, I named my book Ordinary Men rather than Ordinary People for two reasons. One there was a movie "Ordinary People." And the second is, these men -- these people were men. And they themselves had a gendered conception of what they were doing, that to be tough enough -- well, in a sense to be so weak that you couldn't buck others, that you caved to conformity and you deferred to authority, that made you tough enough to kill, and that was considered manly. If you in fact were strong enough not to go along but you disguised that by saying, I'm too weak, that was considered weak and feminine. One person's testimony was basically the following. They soon learned not to ask me to go on the firing squad Juhanz [phonetic], that was for men, and they considered me no man. So they themselves had a code that tough killers were men and abstainers were weak women-like. Now, in terms of were women actually involved -- Wendy Lower had written a book called "Hitler's Furies." And she looks at the deep degree to which women were involved in the Nazi occupation in the East. We know they certainly were involved as nurses of the euthanasia program. And so that we know clear that they -- particularly the so-called -- or the decentralized euthanasia. Up until '41, they were being sent off to the six killing centers and killed in gas chambers. After that, particularly child euthanasia, is carried out in the child's wings of certain hospitals where the nurses either overdose them or starve them to death. And this is done by the nurses. We do know that in the East of course many nurses are sent to be in the hospitals there. And particularly in the so-called Germanization program, where they were bringing in ethnic Germans from what had been the Soviet territories after the Soviet Russian -- after the Hitler-Stalin pact. And they're being resettled. Many of the welfare workers who are settling them are engaged in the ethnic cleansing of Poles and the resettling of ethnic Germans are women. Many of the secretaries at the police stations are women, and they see everything. And they're usually sleeping with the commander. And so you get degrees of involvement even if they're not pulling the trigger. They are in fact very large numbers of German women in the East participating in their roles and often that role is certainly supportive of tangental to the killing even if they're not actually pulling the trigger. So I don't think we can come to the conclusion that only men can do this. That in so far as German society allowed a marginal participation of women, they never had trouble finding women to do that. >> You mentioned the three types of people are like the eager killers, like -- my question is, is that universal in the findings of other genocides, or is it primarily to the battalion? >> I certainly don't know that we could call it universal because we don't have anything like the depth of study of other killing units. It's what I found in this unit. It's what Oswald Rufeisen observed in the police station at Mir. It's what Zimbardo found in his prison experiment. Three pieces of evidence don't make a universal rule. But it suggests that that is a possibility that -- well, I think we can almost say intuitively in almost any situation, there will be a spectrum of human response. You're not going to have everybody doing the same thing or reacting in the same way. So they will stretch out over a spectrum in this kind of situation. I think it's highly likely we will find that, but I certainly can't say we can say that's a universal rule. >> How rare were salvatories [phonetic] like Rufeisen, either overtly or through feigned incompetence? Like I didn't know he was a Jew, or I didn't think that area was important to cordon off, so some people escaped. >> We do have enough stories from survivors that they survived -- let's put it this way. Almost every survivor has a story where a German who could've killed them didn't. And that they wouldn't have survived if it hadn't been that somebody who was in position to have killed them did not. So we certainly know that there were cases where people abstained from killing that they could have done. Even people that were killers that killed other people, but for some reason they liked this person or had some sort of a relationship or just didn't feel like that day, we don't know. We also know of course there were some very small number of very active resistors, people who were hiding Jews, giving them forged documents and this kind of thing. That's a very, very small number. We know there's a handful -- in the case of the people who say are the evaders, you know, as long as they took that position that I'm just too weak and they don't oppose the policy, nothing happens to them. The line they cannot cross is to switch from saying, I can't do it, to persuading others you should do it. And that's where -- No SS wanted somebody in a court-martial because they refused to shoot an unarmed civilian. But to court-martial for the sabotage of morale, for undermining company unity, they're perfectly fine with. So you cross that line and try to persuade your comrades not to kill, then that's when they come down and you will be court-martialed and you will be put in jail. And we do know at least of a handful of cases like that. So there's very small numbers, but there are cases. >> So you mentioned that most of the people from the Police Battalion 101 were from Hamburg, which is like a predominantly Protestant area. And I was told by like in school that Marty Lotter [phonetic] had some of his like later works basically said that you pick up the sword for the state and you do not fight against the state. Like you basic -- and he also had some quite anti-Semitistic things to say. Do you think because of that, because of the expectations within the Protestant church to basically do everything the state says they did it? Like it was like a ground level of just conforming to their superiors? And do you know if there is like a difference between like the southern states and the northern states of how they acted within the war? >> Let me start the answer with a story. I started my teaching career at Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma, Washington in the fall of '74. I went back to defend my dissertation in January of '75. And on my committee was the very noted historian George Massa [phonetic]. Which ended up being a very good friend of mine, fortunately. But he knew I was coming back from a Lutheran university, so he was going to have fun with me. So he basically said, well, isn't it true that this is a Lutheran thing? That we explain this by Martin Luther and this is what Lutherans do. So my answer to him I will also give to you now. And that is in fact, we can find equal number of cases in which Catholics from South Germany and Catholics particularly from Austria were deeply, deeply involved in the killing. There is no shortage of participation of Catholics that would distinguish them from Lutherans. So my answer to there is, in terms of those two, that that does not help us. What we do know in effect is that of all the theology and teachings of the Catholic church that Luther did not reject, did not reform, unfortunately, was the anti-Semitism he took from the Catholic church. Calvin did not. I mean, we have branches of Protestantism that did not carry over the medieval anti-Semitism of the Catholic church. And so you have areas where Protestantism has not been terribly infected by that. Lutheranism is not one of those, unfortunately. And so Catholic and Lutheran on that issue come out pretty identical. >> Thank you, Dr. Browning. [ Applause ]
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Channel: CSUSonoma
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Keywords: Sonoma State University, 2019 Holocaust and Genocide Lecture Series
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Length: 111min 17sec (6677 seconds)
Published: Wed Jun 05 2019
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