Holly Black: 2019 National Book Festival

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>> Monica Valentine: So, my name is Monica Valentine, and I work at the Library of Congress. And I am thrilled to be joined on stage by Holly Black. Holly is -- [ Applause ] You have fans. Holly is a New York Times bestselling, award-winning author. She's written several extremely successful and well-loved series, including the Modern Faerie Tales series, the Magisterium series with Sandra Clare, the Curse Workers series, the Spiderwick Chronicles with Tony DiTerlizzi, which was adapted for film, and Doll Bones, which was a 214 -- 2014 Newbery Honor Book. Her current book, The Wicked King, is part of the exciting Folk of the Air series, which debuted this year at the top of the New York Times Bestseller List. So, please join me one more time in welcoming Holly Black. [ Applause ] >> Holly Black: Thank you, Monica. >> Monica Valentine: So, Holly, you have written about haunted dolls, vampires, and curse workers. But you seem to really love fairies. Can you tell us why? >> Holly Black: I loved fairies since I was a kid. My mom had this book. It was a big, illustrated book by Brian Froud and Alan Lee and, if you're not familiar with Brian Froud, he did the concept art for The Dark Crystal and Labyrinth. And if you're not familiar with Alan Lee, he did a lot of concept art for Lord of the Rings. So imagine them in the '70s, in a tiny town in the U.K., making this terrifying and beautiful book about fairy folklore. And my mom had it, and I picked it up, and it really scared me, and I also really loved it. And I think it fixed in my head the idea of fairies, the way I see them now, as being almost like forces of nature. I'm fascinated by the idea that unlike lots of other supernatural beings, unlike vampires and werewolves and so on, they are not human and have never been human. They're different than us, and they have different sort of mores, and that moment of like coming up against that is really interesting to me. And I also come back a lot to the idea of fairy fruit, the idea of something being so delicious, that all other food is ashes in your mouth, the idea of ruinous beauty. So, those are some of the things that I like about fairies. >> Monica Valentine: Thank you. Well, you are very prolific. This year, you have had three books out, I believe. And I just want to ask you how you do it, and how have you been able to refine your writing process over the years, to be so productive. >> Holly Black: So, I've never, ever had a book moved up before, and I had two moved up this year. >> Monica Valentine: Pressure. >> Holly Black: So, it was an exciting year for me, still a little sweaty. I'm very caffeinated. But I'm very excited that, yeah, both The Wicked King and The Queen of Nothing and the middle grade Maleficent novel are coming out by the end of the year. But next year, I guess, I could sleep. >> Monica Valentine: Rest a little bit, right? >> Holly Black: Yeah. >> Monica Valentine: When people talk about your writing, they often point out how fully realized your fantasy worlds are, can you talk a little bit about how you do your world building, particularly in the land of Faerie? >> Holly Block: One of the things that is interesting about world building, when you're world building from folklore, is that you're not a lot of times making up stuff. It's not the same as like with The Curse Workers, where I had to figure out, okay, what is the magic system, and how does that mean the world has changed on account of it. You know, with Faerie and, you know, especially because it's a hidden world, you know, you're taking from folklore, and you're trying to take out the parts that seem right to you and most true to you, and then, you're extrapolating from them. You know, with the Folk of the Air series, I was going into Faerie, and I was going to be, you know, in the head of a person who grew up there and who knows how it works, which means -- which meant I had to decide how it worked. And while there is a lot of folklore to base things on, there is not a lot of folklore set inside Faerie, and most of it has to do with like a midwife who is taken from her bed by a guy who's upset. His wife is having a baby. He really needs her to come fast. They go to a weird place. She doesn't see stuff, you know, she doesn't really see the area that well, you know, things are dimly lit. She delivers a baby. She's given a pot of ointment. She has to put ointment on the baby's eyes, then, accidentally, she rubs her own eyes. She's very tired. Then, she's taken home, with gold in her pockets. Later, she runs into the guy at the market, and he asks which eye she sees him with. And he tells her, and he puts out that eye. Great story, not a big insight into, you know, the diplomatic situation in Faerie. So, I had to make up a lot more than usual. >> Monica Valentine: Do you have favorite characters that you've written, and would you share some of those with us and tell us why they're your favorites? >> Holly Black: I mean, from each series, I think, my favorite is always the protagonist. That's why they're the protagonist. They're the protagonist because I love them the best. I love Jude, you know, I love spending time with her. And then, I, in this series, and Cardan is fun to write. Madoc is really fun to write, because I love bad old guy advice. Like, I don't know why, but I just love it. The grandfather in the Curse Workers does the same thing. I just love giving bad advice, from like an old guy perspective. >> Monica Valentine: Cool. Cool. So, you have had a lot of great success with both your solo projects and your collaborations. Would you give us some insight into how great fantasy writers collaborate, how they make that process work? >> Holly Black: So, I've collaborated with Tony DiTerlizzi, the Spider Chronicles. I did some comics. That's where I was working with different illustrators, and I worked with Cassandra Clare on the Magisterium series, and each collaboration is really different. And I think that that is a big part of it. You know, figuring out how you want to work together. And then, you know, in each case, we made a decision that if we had a disagreement, we would try to figure out a third thing that wasn't one of the two options, but a third option. Because the thing that people worry about in collaboration, right, is not being able to write the story that they want to write. But the thing that's great about collaboration is that you're not going to write the story you would have written on your own, that you're going to get to write a story that neither one of you could have found without the other person. So, finding that third way, that gives you something from both of you, is both the thing that's hard about collaboration, but also, the thing that is super great about collaboration. And that's why I always tell people to have your own project that you're working on. Have a project that you get to make all the decisions, so that you can make -- so that you can have a project where you're not making all the decisions, and you can feel comfortable with that. You can feel comfortable that it's the shared one. >> Monica Valentine: Yeah, yeah. So, you are pretty versatile. You write with both middle grade and YA. Is either one of those your favorite to write? Maybe why? And how are you able to sort of switch up and go back and forth and be so loved in both worlds? >> Holly Black: I mean, I think that YA is probably closest to my natural voice. And I didn't know that I would really like writing middle grade. I remember when I finished my first book. My grandmother said to me, "You should write a book like this, but with less cursing and for younger people." And I said, "Grandma, I would never do that." And of course, the next project I wound up doing was Spiderwick, which goes to show that the minute you say, "I would never do that," you will begin doing it. And so, yeah, I didn't really know that I would like middle grade, but I do. And I like remembering that -- I think whenever you're writing, you know, a different age, you get to remember what it was like to be that age. And I love thinking about an age when what I was doing was making up stories and looking out in my yard for evidence that there were fairies and when the world seemed really full of possibility. >> Monica Valentine: Okay. So, that leads me to a question. I have heard that you have a secret door in your house. >> Holly Black: I do. >> Monica Valentine: Can you tell us what's behind the secret door? >> Holly Black: What is behind the secret door is my library. It's a hidden library. However, this sounds way fancier than it is. You, too, can have a secret door. You can get them from hiddendoors.com. I am not lying to you. That is how I got my hidden door. I just ordered it from the internet. I actually think that Home Depot might have them now. >> Monica Valentine: So, The Wicked King was a solo effort, which debuted, as we said, at the top of the New York Times Bestseller List. Can we ask you to read us one of your favorite passages from us? And then, share with us why it is your favorite? Or one of your favorites? >> Holly Black: All right. So, I'm going to read, actually, just a little bit, I'll read a little bit from the beginning of Chapter One, and I'm picking this part, in part, because I get to describe some stuff that's fun, and also, because I think it will give you a sense of -- a little bit of what's going on in the book. All right. The new High King of Faerie lounges on his throne, his crown resting at an insouciant angle, his long, villainously scarlet cloak pinned at his shoulders and sweeping the floor. An earring shines from the peak of one pointed ear. Heavy rings glitter along his knuckles. His most ostentatious decoration, however, is his soft, sullen mouth. It makes him look every bit the jerk that he is. I stand to one side of him, in the honored position of seneschal. I am supposed to be High King Cardan's most trusted advisor, and so I play that part, rather than my real role -- the hand behind the throne, with the power to compel him to obey should he try to cross me. Scanning the crowd, I look for a spy from the Court of Shadows. They intercepted a communication from the Tower of Forgetting, where Cardan's brother is jailed, and are bringing it to me instead of to its intended recipient. And that's only the latest crisis. It's been five months since I forced Cardan onto the throne of Elfhame as my puppet king, five months since I betrayed my family, since my sister carried my little brother to the mortal realm and away from the crown that he might have worn, since I crossed swords with Madoc. Five months since I've slept for more than a few hours at a stretch. >> Monica Valentine: Wow. >> Holly Black: Let me stop there. It tells you kind of where we're starting. >> Monica Valentine: Yeah. And so, what do you love so much about that passage, as one of your favorites? >> Holly Black: Well, I think it's fun to describe people. Obviously, it's fun to describe Cardan. He always wears a lot of fancy stuff. And it's fun to then get to contrast that, because it's, you know, it's a little opulent description with her position on it, which is ridiculous. God, why? Why is he so terrible? >> Monica Valentine: Okay. Well, I am sure that your audience would love to hear what you have planned for the next, with three books this year? What's coming up next year? >> Holly Black: I am figuring that out right now. I am trying to figure out what I want to do. I've been thinking about writing an adult book. I have some more YA books that I want to write. And so, I have to write some proposals. But I haven't done anything. I am free. I'm out of contract. No one can catch me. Free. >> Monica Valentine: Would you like to give them a little preview of the next book that's coming out? >> Holly Black: Yes. So, yeah, The Queen of Nothing starts out just a few months after this book lets off. It's where we started out in the Moral World. And I mean, I think that the third book, and really, the whole series is about the central question of whether or not Jude is willing to become like Madoc, you know, the father -- you know, to some extent, you know, her father, to some extent, the murderer of her parents. Right? How much she wants to be like him, if it means having power. Like would she be willing to rule over a destroyed Elfhame if it meant ruling over it? >> Monica Valentine: Great. Great. Okay, looking out at this audience, I'm more than certain that we have some aspiring fantasy writers out here. Do you have a couple of pieces of advice that you'd like to share with young people who are thinking about getting into it? >> Holly Black: So, when I was a kid, I never met a writer. I wanted to be a writer, but I didn't know -- I couldn't imagine what that would be like, like it just didn't seem possible to me. >> Monica Valentine: Like a job. >> Holly Black: Yeah, like, I mean, right, as a job, it seemed, you know, like I -- I knew a lot of adults who were interested in the arts, but they all had other careers. Like they, you know, my mom was a painter, but not a professional painter. She worked in the, you know, in the mall, at a fine jewelry counter. You know, my friend's dad was an amazing historian, but his job, he was a butcher. And so, like people always said, you know, if you believe in yourself, you can do it. And I thought, but I don't believe. Like, what? I'm no fool. I don't believe. And so, you don't have to believe it will happen, to happen. You just have to keep walking through the process. You know, read a bunch of books. Write a bunch, edit a bunch. It helped me to meet other people who wanted to be writers, because it takes a long time to write your first book. You don't know what you're necessarily doing. And so, having someone to trade back and forth with who would tell me when it was working, especially. Like we think of a critique partner as being a person who tells you when it's not working, but they're also the person who's going to tell you when it is working. And you're going to be telling them when their stuff isn't working, and as you become a better reader of their work, you're going to become a better reader of your work. So, that was really important for me. >> Monica Valentine: Great. Great. Well, I am sure that the audience also has some questions for you. So, I want just to let you know that you guys can line up at the mics, if you have questions for Holly. We're going to move into Q and A pretty soon. But I also want to let you know that her books are on sale today. So, down on the expo floor, you can pick up Holly's books. Do we have some folks who want to ask questions? [ Silence ] Okay. I guess we can start on this side, and then, we'll go back and forth. [ Silence ] >> Audience Member 1: Tricky mic. I'm also a writer, and I'm in the process of like trying to find an agent for my first book, but I'm also having trouble working out what I want to do after this one. Like, I have some ideas, but I have a hard time finding motivation to write and figuring out what I want to do. So, have you ever -- did you experience that early in your career and how did you handle that? >> Holly Black: Oh, yeah. I mean, it took me maybe five years to write my first book. I didn't know how to write a book. It was just a bunch of elves sitting around, experiencing ennui, drinking endless cups of coffee, and it took me forever to finish that book. And when it sold, I was so happy. I was happy for months. I was so happy, that someone like rear-ended my car, and I was like, "Whatever! It's all good." And then, I -- somehow, it messed up the chemicals in my brain, I went into the only serious depression I've ever been in, that summer, where I became sure I was about to die and spent a lot of time looking at pseudo scientific articles online about the afterlife, to try to find out what would happen to me. And it was all because -- and I finally figure this out years later, that I had so internalized the idea that my goal was to write a book and to sell it, that once I wrote a book and sold it, my brain was like, "Well, pack it in. You have no more goals." I mean, the idea that I had to write a second book was a terrible shock to me. Like, "What do you mean? I just wrote one book, and it was the hardest thing I ever did, and you want me to do it again?" So, I think it's -- you know, it's hard, and it's especially hard when you're in the middle of that journey. Because you're out there. You're trying to sell your first book, and you've probably gotten some anxiety and some stuff getting in the way of writing your second book. I will say this, though, the great thing about writing your second book is it is a respite from that anxiety over the first book. I mean, it is really useful, if you can find the space and time in your head to -- because it's the thing you can do to put all of that anxiety over here, and be like, "Okay, let me focus on this." And then, this no longer becomes like the most important thing. So, I understand it's hard. It just is. I'm sorry. Good luck to you with that, but like I, you know, you did the big thing. You wrote a book. Like it will never be this hard again. Audience Member 1: Thank you. >> Monica Valentine: We'll bounce over to the other side. >> Audience Member 2: Hi. I know this was awhile ago, but what was it like, having one of your books adapted for the screen, and would you ever want that to happen with one of your current books now, more recent books? >> Holly Black: I mean, when you have a book that's adapted for film -- so, the Spider Chronicles was a film. It came out in 2008, and it was a great experience. It really was, you know. I think it was a good adaptation. I think they captured some of the heart of those books, and I think that made it especially great. It was great to walk around the sets and really feel like I was walking around, mostly in Tony DiTerlizzi's head. And, you know, but the thing that is especially great is that it means that a lot more readers are going to pick up your books. So, you know, I would take the chance of doing it again. The thing that's hard about it is that you're not -- it's a process in which you are never really sure what is happening. Like, when we were waiting to hear the news about whether they were going to make Spiderwick, I remember, at some point, I was driving home, and I got this phone call from our agents, and they were like, "It's on. It's happening." And I drove, because I was driving home from New York for something else. I drove to our local liquor store, Liquors 44, and I pointed to a dusty bottle of Cristal on the top shelf, and I was like, "Give it to me." And they were like, "That's expensive." And I was like, "Give it to me." And I took the dusty bottle over to Tony's house, and we popped it, and we began to pour it, when we got a phone call. Back off. I was like, "How do you get the cork back in this bottle?" >> Monica Valentine: Oh, no. >> Holly Black: But then, a week later, it was on, and it really did get made. But, you know, it -- I will -- don't believe it until you're walking around the set. >> Audience Member 2: Thank you. >> Monica Valentine: Good question. >> Audience Member 3: Hi. Are you a pantser or an outliner? And within that, how do you approach story structure? How much do you have to know before you begin writing? >> Holly Black: I want to be an outliner. Like, it is my great -- I feel like this is -- because it's more of a confessional than a Q and A. Like I want very much to be -- I make outlines, and then, fail to follow them. And I've like have gone -- like, as I have gone on, I have tried, and especially actually in the last two or three years, I have made a real push to try and figure out what mistakes I'm making in the outlining stage. I was -- so, when I went on tour for The Cruel Prince, I spent the entire time reading books about outlining. I don't know -- like I've became obsessed with this idea, that I could change how I did it. And I remember reading this one -- all books about outlining have like two chapters in which they justify why outlining is important. I'm not sure why. I bought the book. Like I'm ready, but they all do. And one of them was like, "Listen. You can either outline in the outline, or you can outline in your first draft." And I never felt so like -- get accused by a book and also, maybe, they were so right about me. Because that was my problem, is my first draft is often like me trying to figure out what happens in the book. So, in the middle. >> Audience Member 3: Thank you. >> Monica Valentine: Cool. This side. >> Audience Member 4: I like to write as well. I'm a writer. And I wanted to know, is that in between some of like the really exciting bits of the story, what do you do whenever you write, to make sure that like in between these really good bits, you don't have just like boring parts in between, like maybe like fight scenes or stuff. So, what do you do to keep it -- the story going in between? >> Holly Black: This was actually the thing I think I asked the most when I was writing my first book, that when you look at, you know, story arcs, it looks like, "Look. Bigger and bigger incidents." Right? And you're like, "Well, what happens between them? And that's not quite a story. Like it doesn't feel..." The thing you have to remember, especially in fantasy, is you have two overlapping stories, and the relationship between those stories is part of what makes things move forward. You want to have -- you have the personal story. And then, you have what I'm going to call your time limiting story. And what we generally think of as the plot. Like when I was first writing a book, my understanding of plot was like, okay, say, you have a dragon that's come and is attacking a village, and you have a king, and he has to protect his kingdom from this dragon. And I guess you have like the dragon just attacks bigger and bigger, you know, it has bigger and bigger battles, right? And -- but I knew that wasn't a book, but I wasn't sure why. Well, now, imagine that the king has a wife and also a brother, and that the king's wife is in love with his brother. Now, you have, with the tension between those stories, creates what is happening in the moments between the battles. So, for instance -- and we start with those stories. We start with the personal. So, you have your king. He's sitting in the throne room. He looks at his wife, his wife's looking at his brother. A page runs in and says, "There's a dragon." And then, as we move toward the conflict, perhaps the king is like, "Brother, I think you should go fight that dragon." Or maybe he thinks, you know, "My marriage was arranged. This isn't anyone's fault. I will go and fight the dragon, and at least, they can be together for this time." And I go out, and I fight the dragon, and I think I'm going to die, you know, and then, perhaps I defeat the dragon. And now, what am I going to do? Because if I go home, I'm going to break up their happiness. So, perhaps, I slink away into book two. Or perhaps some of the dragon's blood has gotten on me, and I become dragonish, and I slurk towards home for revenge. But tension between those stories is what creates the middle spaces, and often, those middle spaces have more tension than the battles, because they're the personal tension. And personal tension is always higher, actually, than plot tension. >> Audience Member 4: Thank you. >> Audience Member 5: Hi. So, my question is, I've heard some writers say that a lot of the story you think up when you're not actually like at the keyboard, writing. And I'm curious like are there things that you do throughout your day or certain times of day that help you kind of go into the story and generate ideas, when you're not actually putting words on a page? >> Holly Black: So, I make a playlist. I have a playlist that I listen to. That's really useful, because you put your -- you know, music will bring you back to the space that you're supposed to be in. The other thing that I have started doing, is I started doing timed writing, where like I'll write for 20 minutes straight, and you do not get the greatest pros doing this. But it's really helpful, because for me, that's the hardest thing, is just actually generating the story when I'm not entirely -- like I don't like -- like that first prose is just not great for me, and, you know, I feel like it's -- you know, you have this idea in your head, and the idea seems great, and then, you're translating it into something that is much less great. And I like editing. Editing is like cleaning the toilet. You're not going to make it any worse. So, for me, a huge part of it is really just drafting, like making the draft happen. And then, for me, a lot of times, the actual story is in the editing, is in figuring out what I did wrong. I would like to be the person who could write a story right before, but I'm always the person who has to write it wrong before I can write it right. >> Monica Valentine: I think we still have time for a few more. >> Audience Member 6: So, I just wanted to know, as someone who has grown up with your writing -- >> Holly Black: Thank you. >> Audience Member 6: -- and to adulthood, I want to know how, as the more and more books you've written, and the older you get in your own personal life, how has your writing changed and how have your goals with what you write have changed? >> Holly Black: I think that you, as I have, you know, moved on from -- you know, when you write, when you first start writing, you're writing the stories that you love. And then, you've written the stories you love, and you're like, "What other stories do I love?" Much like coming back to Faerie, and being like, "Wow, I used a lot of my favorite folklore. What folklore is left that I love?" And I think you wind up finding out -- you wind up remembering things that you -- maybe weren't the things you thought of first, and you have different experiences I think that translate into writing. And I think also, hopefully, you're able to do more challenging things, more challenging structures, like Darkest Part of the Forest, a lot of times, when people talk to me about the romance in it, they're like, "I liked it," and I'm like, "Thank God." I'm so excited, but I'm always like, "That's great, because it was like love math, trying to figure out who talked to who and what time and how it worked. And it was structurally challenging, which is maybe really boring to, you know, a person who wants to talk about the book. But like figuring out that you want to do different kinds of structures and that you want to challenge yourself in different kinds of ways, I mean, you want to -- you know, I think is something that comes with the experience to be able to do that. When I wrote my first book, I was like, "I would like to write a book that has a beginning, a middle, and an end, like that feels -- I remember finishing it and reading the end and thinking, "This feels like a book-shaped object." It was such a relief to me. I was like, "Just please let me out of this book honorably." And, you know, now, I think I can manage that, so what can I do within those confines? Like what are -- you know, and I would like to say it gets easier, but in some ways, it gets harder, because of that. >> Audience Member 6: Thank you. >> Audience Member 7: Yeah. A couple of years ago, I was drinking coffee at the McDonalds with the software engineer that started to write teen books, very successfully. And she was yelling at me that she was concerned that she was drawing up into a lawsuit by the mothers on 13 Reasons Why. But her book was fiction, and she kept on saying, "There is no island where girls are tortured and have to fight to the death." Do you have concerns when you write, do you damp down your dark, any dark writing or any immoral writing? Do you have some concerns? And on a librarian question, do you understand or do you think the mothers do have a concern, that a librarian should ask their 12-year-old daughter, "Did your mother give you permission to read this?" >> Holly Black: I mean, do I...? >> Audience Member 7: Do you damp it down? >> Holly Black: No. I mean, in terms of like -- I mean, no. Like, because I'm not -- that's not -- I mean, I think the darkness in the way -- I'm not even sure quite what you mean by darkness, but I think what I am interested in doing is asking questions that I'm interested in asking and writing stories that are about -- I'm interested in writing the kinds of books that I wanted when I was a kid. And, you know, I love dark fantasy. I love things that have a relationship to horror. I once heard -- I was once on a panel where someone said, "Well, what's the difference between dark fantasy and horror?" And, you know, fantasy that has horror elements, but also has a sense of awe to it. And so, even if the world -- even if there's monsters in the world, there is a sense that there is something great about -- like something about that, that fills us with a sense of beauty or pleasure, whereas horror is -- the supernatural is an abhorrence. It is a corruption. And so, I always think of myself as being -- the line for me is always that this is always still -- fills me with a sense of hope and awe, you know, no matter how much, you know, they all want to eat you. >> Monica Valentine: No matter how dark it gets. >> Holly Black: What? >> Monica Valentine: No matter how dark it gets. >> Holly Black: No matter -- right, that there's still that -- like I would not write nihilism. I guess that's the line, for me. I'm not interested in writing a nihilistic story. >> Monica Valentine: Okay. I think we have time for one more question. >> Audience Member 8: Okay. In your Folk of the Air series, both Jude and Cardan really aren't morally good characters. How did you make them so likeable? [ Laughter ] >> Monica Valentine: That's a great question. >> Holly Black: That is a great question. I think, the thing -- I'm always interested in people who are -- who grow up inside different moral systems. I remember reading this true crime novel. It was called Son of a Grifter. It was about the son of Sante Kimes, who wound up being arrested with her other son for the murder of a hotelier. She was trying to steal the person's hotel. And when he was a kid, she had raised him to be a criminal. And like at some point, he like steals these surfboards and he, you know, gets caught. And her -- winds up confessing and like getting -- and being put on probation. And, you know, she comes, and she slaps him across the face, and she's like, "How could you be so stupid as to get caught? And how could you have confessed?" Like, "I thought I raised you better." And to me, I think what is interesting about Jude and Cardan, right, is that they're raised within Faerie. And so, specifically, Jude, she's raised by, you know, someone who has a very -- who believes in murder, who is a, you know, who is a soldier and who is a killer. And so, I think we see them negotiating morality from a place that is different than we might. But I think they're both negotiating it, and I think that's what we like about them. >> Monica Valentine: Well, that is all we have time for today. Holly, it's been a real treat having you here. Thank you for joining us. >> Holly Black: Thank you so much for all your great questions. >> Monica Valentine: And we are looking forward to The Queen of Nothing. >> Holly Black: Thank you.
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Channel: Library of Congress
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Length: 33min 46sec (2026 seconds)
Published: Tue Nov 05 2019
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