PM: Good afternoon. HC: Hi. PM: My name is Paul Musgrave.
I'm special assistant to the director at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library and
Museum. It's March 10th. We're in the National
Archives Building in Washington DC and I have the honor and privilege to be
interviewing Henry Cashen. Mr. Cashen, welcome. HC: Thank you. It's a privilege to be here. PM: I want to ask you a question because a lot of the
description of the White House staff focuses on the fact that there are a lot
of UCLA alumni out there but you were part of a smaller clique of Brown alumni.
Tell us about Brown University and how you got started.
HC: Well, Brown didn't have anything to do with Nixon other than having
watched the debates at, at the university from a wonderful professor I had who
thought it would be a real lesson in political science, a political science
course, to not only watch the debates of 1960 but to listen to them and that's
where it was a great course because you saw the debates and you saw the contrast
on television of President Nixon and then-Senator Kennedy, and then he would
play the audios, and there was no question of who was answering the questions,
who was deeper, who had more command of the knowledge, and, you know, he came to a
poll of the class as to, you know, who was, who was, who won the debates and no
question, on just with the radio Nixon won. On TV, it was, it was Kennedy. But I'm
from Detroit, Michigan originally and I ended up going to Brown because that's where I
chose to go to school and having gone to boarding school in New England
beforehand, and, um, was interested in, uh, Young Republicans in college. Uh, did
some work for Eisenhower in just as a volunteer when he ran, um, and, and with for
Nixon in 1960, um, just as a college student. But there was a wonderful guy who was a
great friend of mine by the name of Nick Ruwe. Other fellows might have mentioned
it too but Nick was he worked for the President
when he was Vice President, and I can back up into any, any part of Brown, if
you want. Brown was a great university. I had a wonderful time there. Played
football, did all sorts of things academically, and did a great deal
on the campus, and then went to Michigan Law School after that, and then was
working in a Detroit law firm, the Dickenson Wright law firm in Detroit,
which is the largest firm in Michigan. And Nick who, as I said, was a great
friend and who I used to see on a regular basis called up one day and he said, "Are you
still interested in Nixon?" This is 1966. And I said, "Why? You know, I'm interested
in him. I mean, I mean he had a great campaign in '60. I think he got, he got robbed in
the election but what's up?" So he said, "Meet me after work." We went to the
University Club after work and, uh, he said, um, that he would, "he" being Nixon, was running a
congressional campaign stumping for Republican congressmen all over the
country in '66, and would I be interested in, in getting involved. And I said, "Well, yeah. I'd get involved with him. That sounds like it'd be fun but what would we do?" He said, "You'd be doing advance work," and I said, "Well, you know, I've never really done much
advance work but yeah, I'd give it a try, Nick." And he-- and I said, "So where do we go from
here?" He said, "We'll go up to New York tomorrow." So I said, "Boy, that's great." So
he, uh, [laughs] That next day was a Saturday. We jumped on a plane. We went up to Mudge
Rose law firm. We visited for with, with Nixon for a while. Had great visit and he,
Nixon, said to me, "I'd like you to leave for Indiana on Monday." And I said, "Mr. Nixon, that
that, uh, that would be great but I've just recently started at my law firm and I'm not
so sure I can just take off for six or seven weeks and not show back up in the
office," and he said, "Well, doesn't Robert McKean have something to do with that law firm?" I said, "Yeah, he sure does. He's the senior man," and he got Rose Woods in and he called, uh, Robert McKean out in Grosse Pointe, Michigan, got him off the golf course, and he said, "Bob," Nixon, he said, "Just looking for you
to make a contribution to the Republican Party this fall," and I would say McKean
must have said something about he'd send his a check in. Well, he said, "Oh, Bob. You're,
you're like clockwork. You know we never worry about you. Wish we had as
many financial regulars as you." He said, "I'm gonna, I want to borrow a person
from you," and he says, "Henry Cashen, and he's gonna be gone for about seven or eight
weeks. Fine with you, Bob? Fine, fine. It's done." So that was it. I left for Indiana
on Monday [laughs]. Went home and packed and took off and traveled all around with a group
that we had in that campaign. We traveled to Indiana, we went to Arkansas, we went back and
forth to New York, and flew around on the Reader's Digest plane, which was donated
by the Wallace family. Hobe Lewis was really the benefactor of that one, and, uh,
Pat Buchanan was on it, Charlie McWhorter, John Whitaker was the desk man.
Anyhow, that's how I started and I did, I did advance work and never really stopped
working for Nixon. I did some non-public non, non-political events for him in the
fall of 1967, and then we all met in New York in late fall of 1967, being the
guys that were involved with him, to he let us know that he was kicking off the
campaign. PM: Who did, uh, who did you work for in Indiana? What was the candidate you were stumping for? HC: [exhales] Jeez, I can't even remember. I ran around all over in Indiana. I don't even know. I
can't even remember whether, uh, any of them won. I don't remember the names of any of
the, they were all House members. The, the most interesting part of the event which
left a lasting impression was that we went to Anderson [laughs] Anderson, Indiana,
Terre Haute, Indiana. I can remember that in Terre Haute, Indiana, and Nick came out,
he was with me in Terre - Nick Ruwe - Terre Haute that Clyde Lovellette who was a
renowned big time basketball player, that's going back into the early '50s, who
was, he was, he was the sheriff and, um, you know, it's just impressive seeing, seeing Lovellette out there. But when we showed up at the airport at one occasion, there
was a woman who came up to me - this I believe this was in Terre Haute or
Columbus, Indiana, went to both of them, and then Anderson was the wrap-up. There's a funny
story about that too. And she came up and said - I was a young guy, I was about 25 years old -
and said, "I just want to come and say hello to the former Vice President, that
I worked for him during the Alger Hiss hearings when Rose Woods was sick, and I
just want to come in." So I'm thinking to myself, "Wow, I gotta get a message to
him that Jane Doe is here," and we were talking and, um, I forget who it was,
somebody said, "Well, he usually gets off the plane last. So as soon as a plane
door opens up, you, you come on, get on and give him, give him, give him the
message and he'll be cool with that." And so, plane lands and door opens. Who's the
first guy off? It's Nixon and he looks at this woman
and he went right up to her and remembered her name was from Alger Hiss
when she worked for him for ten days and shook her hand and chatted with her
privately for a while, knew her name, knew the whole deal, and then he went back to
work the crowd a little bit and hopped in the car and off we went. But it was -
and we closed up, we wrapped it, wrapped up and I spent a lot of time in
Indiana, um, in Anderson, Indiana, and the astuteness of the, the gentleman. All of them, the party leaders were on the platform in
Anderson, Indiana. So I go back and, and I was gonna brief him on the local
issues. He already knew all the local issues and he said, "Has anybody checked
on Charlie Halleck? Where is he sitting?" and I said, "I think he's next to you." He
said, "Find out how much he's had to drink." He said, "We're gonna be on
national TV. This is gonna be taped and I don't want him falling over on me if
he's had too much to drink." And [laughs] so, went back out and I said to somebody, "Can
we check and find out?" and he said, "Yeah. He's been drinking this morning." I said,
"We've gotta move him to the back. The Vice President doesn't, doesn't
want him next to him in case something, you know, goes sideways." And it's just an
example. He had his antennae were up on everything and, in any event, went back to
to New York and, uh, had a great time in New York with him when he let everybody out on
the town and, you know, it was - 1966 was a huge year for the Republicans and he was
well on his way to having solidified support from the various state chairmen, uh,
and all the states that he campaigned. PM: I just, you know, this is, this is not
something that they cover in Advance Man school - how to move the minority leader back to the back of the hall. HC: Mm-mm. Nixon was telling me what to do. I mean, that was, uh, the state chairman had to do that after we were told but he had him sitting right next to Nixon on the platform. PM: What was this trip like? I mean, you, uh, you should be able to just compare it to the other trips that you took later. I mean-- HC: The trips were great. They were very informal. PM: How many people? HC: I would guess on, on a plane there were five or six, and, uh, Clint Wheeler Charlie McWhorter, Pat Buchanan, Pat Hillings,
I believe, was, was traveling that. Whitaker didn't go much, uh, and I'm trying
to think of whether John Davies was aboard on that, who was a personal aide
to, uh, the Vice President then. Um. Rose would when she sometimes traveled,
sometimes didn't. Forget who took her place when, when weren't going. But it was
it was a small crowd. We had a handful of Advance Men. Ruwe was doing it, I was doing
it. I forget who else was doing it. Roy Goodearle was, was out on the road
then but there weren't many. I mean, we were, we were spread out and it was, it
was, it was you learned by fire. I mean you get thrown out there and you knew
what you had to do and Nick had done a lot of it and, uh, so I, you know, I picked it
up in and whatever it was, I had somewhat of a instinct for it because I
did a lot of it in '68. A lot of it. And you know, he announced to the group - I
forget where we were, what apartment or hotel - but in, um, November of '67, December
'67, November, it must have been November '67 that he was going for it and if anybody that didn't
want to get involved, no, no hard feelings. Bail out now. Because once you get locked
in, we're going for it, and he was going to, um, register in New Hampshire, and he was
going to enter the primary, and that was it. That was the start of the campaign.
PM: How did you square that with the law firm? HC: I took off. I took a leave of absence. I was, I was gone. I used to go back and check in and, you know, see the guys. I had no idea what
I was doing. I got married in the summer of '67, so it wasn't a great first year to
be, to be married, and, uh, but I was, I was gone from, I think, January until the
convention. I was gone that whole year 'til November, just about. I spent the
whole year on the road. PM: Did you go to the Advance Man school? HC: I guess I did, yeah. I can't remember who even ran that. Maybe John Nidecker. Uh, it eventually sorted out. Ruwe went up to New Hampshire and this fella Roy Goodearle went to, um,
were great friends of mine, went to Wisconsin. I spent a lot of time in Wisconsin,
uh, and then went to Oregon after that. And I believe it was after a couple
of stops in Oregon that Bobby Kennedy was, was shot and that's when he
stopped campaigning. I always remember a stupid statement of mine, an insight
into the, into the former President. We came into Salem, Oregon and there was,
there was a crowd, an odd crowd, that was - by odd I mean they weren't, they weren't
put together to see him - and there was a lot of activity going, going on in
the hotel we were staying in, and we came in and came up to the room and he said, "What was all that
going on in the, in the, down in the lobby there?" and I says, "Bunch of idiots down
there. I don't know what they were doing." He said, "Let me tell you something. That's
the last time I ever hear want to hear you use that word to describe anybody. So as
long as you're working for me, those are all good people and I don't want to hear
any type of an adjective put on them that describes anybody in a derogative way."
Boy, I learned fast. And uh, you know, and he had great, great events in Oregon. We stopped.
There was a lot of communication, a lot of organizing and, um, then I get back into it
again. There were three of us who were in charge of the First Family down in Miami
and headed out down to Miami for, I think I went down there for three weeks and
we, the group, all stayed at the place called Runaway Bay Club and, uh, you know, it was, it was, uh-- Not only was it, it was a challenge - everybody worked hard, you were learning
hard, you knew, you knew enough at that point to have a little confidence in
what you were doing - but, um, it was, it was a lot of camaraderie, a lot of wonderful
people, and I never, you know, never forget the, the, the highs, the lows, the ups and
downs, the stories from the, from the convention, which were - there are a lot of
them and they were great. Um. But, uh, Nixon had got the group together. [Laughs] I laugh to myself thinking of we were trying to, uh, uh, "Wilt the Stilt" Chamberlain was
down there at the point, the point when people were looking around as he was
going, going to events and talking to people about but the then-candidate and
he complained he didn't have enough clothes. So we had to go out and get him clothes so he'd
look well-suited up. How many people could tailors could you find, you know? You get
a tailor-made suit for Wilt Chamberlain it cost as much as ten suits but at one
point he, he told Mitchell that, that he Ehrlichman and Haldeman were in charge
of-- They arrived. It was during, during that the primaries. They hadn't showed up at
all. And I first met John, and who I eventually worked for, in Miami and, and
same with Haldeman, Ziegler. I had known Ziegler before. He was, he was working in
the, uh, primary states at the tail end. Um. Anyhow, Nixon, he got
everybody together and said at Miami, "Now, I don't want you guys running around
getting worried about this thing. We're gonna win the nomination." He said, "What
I'm worried about is we're gonna win the election and start thinking about that. Start thinking about beyond the the, uh, the convention." And he kind of
turned and he turned to Haldeman - I believe it was Haldeman or Mitchell, I don't
remember whether Mitchell was around much during that time in Miami but
probably he was - it was either Haldeman or Mitchell and said, "However," quietly to
them, "I want to get the Miami delegation together, I mean the Florida delegation
together and poll them. I'm worried that they're coming loose." Yeah. I mean, he
spoke with total confidence to the whole group but he was, you know, he wanted a
lock - we wanted to lock that thing up on the first ballot, which was tight. I
forget whether it was Wisconsin, what what state it was-- PM: Wisconsin. HC: --that put him over the top. And John Sears was, was still very much involved but he, once
Agnew got picked, then, uh, Sears and Ruwe and Goodearle all went
off with, uh, with Agnew, and there were a group of about four or five of us who
were lead Advance Men that took off from there: Ron Walker, myself, "Easy Ed" Morgan, Boyd Gibbons, John Nidecker, and we took
off for the first five stops that he was going to make and start starting to put
those together. Um, did not go to Mission Bay. Went back to, to Washington, I mean back
to Detroit, and got ready to go full-time after Labor Day and, uh, then, you know, it was-- My god, this is a lot of history. Stop me and I can cut all this short but it was, um, you know, it was flat out from, from
that right after Labor Day to the election and I went from, um, Detroit to
California to Santa Clara. Met with Bob Finch in San Francisco and we went out
to Santa Clara. Looked at this foot- big football stadium and, uh,
I said, "So, what are we doing here?" and he said, "You're gonna fill it," and I said, "Geez," to the Governor who is Lieutenant Governor at that
point, "you know, has this place ever been filled other than for a football game?" He
said, "Bobby Kennedy had a rally out here and he filled about half of it." He said, "But
good luck. I got to go back to Sacramento." and he took off. And we filled it and it
was, it was a huge success and he was rolling and, um, then I-- I think I came,
came back and went from, from there to, uh, I don't know which I did, to Long Island. No, to Pennsylvania to put
together a motorcade through, through downtown Philadelphia. That, the
business community on Friday at Walnut and Chestnut streets, and then we went on
a tour of five different stops throughout all of Pennsylvania
and, man, you know, I got to Pennsylvania and I got in the car and drove and drove
and drove trying to figure out a route that would take us through Pennsylvania
and into New Jersey for two stops in New Jersey and then back to New York, and I
think, you know, as far as a challenge was concerned, Philadelphia was okay because you
had your built-in crowd, and he was going to see Cardinal Krol first. That was an
early morning stop. We picked up John Eisenhower, uh, and that was all well and good,
and then we took off going on that tour through the, through the various counties,
Bucks County and your various counties of Pennsylvania, and then into New Jersey,
and I had recruited somebody to put at each one of these stops. So once we
started going, you know, "Have you got a crowd? Are you all set? Are we, are we
rolling? Are we doing well?" And it was, again, we went through there. We motorcaded
the whole day all through Pennsylvania and New Jersey
and the stops were-- I don't think they do that anymore. I don't know whether they can but
the, the stops were, were great, and he said somewhere in New Jersey that
"We've had such a good day, let's put it in gear and head for, for New York and
everybody can have a have a nightcap somewhere because it's been a great day." And it
was. And then I hit it for, for, uh, New York for to motorcade to Long Island and put
together Suffolk and Essex County to pick up Rockefeller at the
Long Island border and, uh, take off from, from there and go through, motorcade through
Essex and Suffolk County and, and I remember meeting with this fellow Joe
Margiotta in, uh, um, I don't remember where he was but I came in there and he had his whole council. Margiotta
subsequently got in a little trouble, politically. I don't know
what it was for but he did but somebody wrote it up in Newsday and it didn't, it wasn't written up in many things but somebody wrote it up that
a telephone call came and the call was for "the motorcade king" and they
said when that was announced "Cashen took the call." So I, they had the label
put on me as "the motorcade king" but anyhow, that was it. We motorcaded. Next
thing that was flew to California, to Long Beach with there was a whole bunch of
the guys. You know, you had, you had a nucleus of people who had become really close
friends: Dwight Chapin, Ed Morgan, Nick Ruwe, um, you know, Nidecker, that were out
there in California that-- Ziegler, Will Han was aboard. Uh, um, I mean, you know, think of--
And I went Cicero, to Illinois for, for one event and supposed to go to
Cicero and I had these volunteers in Cicero and I'm from Detroit. Detroit
Tigers were playing in the, in the World Series and, um, I had this young - I'm young, 25 or
so, whatever it was, 26 - a young guy working for me, I mean, he's younger than
me and he came in to get me at the headquarters there at Cicero and said,
"Hey, Cashen. I got some guy on the phone by the name of John Mitchell and he said
wants to talk to you. Want me to blow him off and tell him get lost?" I said, "No. I
better take that call and that was turned out to be a very seminal time of
the campaign because, uh, Mitchell said, "I want you to cancel Cicero. Get out of
there. Head up to Don Rumsfeld's district. Put together a rally up there.
We have got Illinois. We're gonna take it. We want one last event, " this is early
October, "we got one last event and we're gonna win Illinois and we got to
Pennsylvania and we get to New Jersey." And, uh, boy, he was right. And we lost
Pennsylvania and we won New Jersey and it made, it made the difference. Anyhow, I
can't remember where in the sequence-- I think that was the last one of the trips
before we went to California. I don't know how it all fit in between, between
New York and, uh, and the stop in Illinois but, uh,
you know, we went to, we had a, there's a big telethon going on in California
and everybody was working. The guys were, I mean, it was virtually all over, and then got
on a plane, the plane, and went back to New York the next day and into the
Waldorf for the election. And that was a long night. PM: I want to ask you a question that takes us all the way back to the beginning of this story. Why weren't you-- Why Nixon? Why not Romney in '66-67? HC: I got started with Nixon before
Romney. It was, uh, you know, I got the opportunity with Nixon even, even though I, uh, was in the office of one of my - not my law partners - I was the young associate, and
one of the, uh, he was a big-time partner, Dick, Dick Van Dusen was Romney's
general counsel and his probably his closest confidant and I was in the
office with because I started in '66 and Romney, Romney, you know, he didn't
announce until, until '67 and so he didn't have a campaign going. They were thinking
about it and they wanted me to go, to go, to take off and get involved with, with
with Romney, and Van Dusen had Romney on the phone and he said, "Governor, I got
just the guy to take off and start doing the advance work for you. It's a question
to him as to which is more important to him - his loyalties to, to Nixon or his job."
And I, he didn't mean that, he didn't mean that but he was, he was sticking it to me
and I after he hung up, I said, "You know, Dick, I'm, I'm committed to Nixon,"
and he said, "That's the way it goes. Okay, go get him and I'll see you on the
campaign trail." And then he eventually came, came to, um,
Washington as Under Secretary to Romney when he was Secretary of HUD,
Governor Romney. It was one of the departments I was responsible for when I
was working as Deputy Counsel and did a lot of work with, with Romney and he was,
he was, he became a great friend. I mean, I knew him a little bit as Governor but he
was a wonderful guy. PM: And the next question is so, John Mitchell singled out Don Rumsfeld's district because Rumsfeld's district was Chicago - Chicagoland, wasn't it?
HC: Yeah, it was Arlington or wherever it was. I forget but, I mean, but it was-- PM: Winnetka, I think. HC: Right, right around in there. It was, it was a safe district and
what he wanted was one good event that we didn't have to work too hard and
wouldn't, wouldn't take a lot of, a lot of time, a lot of effort. It would, it
was, you know, it was gonna be a good event. It was Republican territory. People
were gonna turn out. It was going to be a good show, and then we headed off for
Pennsylvania and New Jersey to campaign in the states where we needed it and, you know,
that, that was a very rough call for, it was a bold call for Mitchell and I think
well into, uh, Nixon's term, he credited John Mitchell for making the tough calls that
got him elected. And we were walking in and out of the suite in the Waldorf. He
was in a separate room but you could go into kind of the living room area
during the, the election. At one point, he came out and he was in a bathrobe and the Illinois returns
were coming in and they were not good, and Chicago was coming in first, and he
just walked out and looked at Mitchell and he said, "John, can we have a word in here a second?" Then when Southern Illinois came in, it came
in strong, and he won. um. But that, that's the reason with-- I'd already committed to
Nixon and I was having fun. I got to know the guys, got to know him, and had a great
experience. PM: I want to back up because you mentioned a
name that I think we're going to talk about at least in passing a little bit
later. Cardinal Krol in, in Philadelphia. Who was he? Why was he,
why was he significant? HC: Um, if, uh, if I were, just my personal opinion, um, Nixon,
because I did a lot of work in the White House with, with the Catholics and, um, the
Catholic vote, uh, Nixon felt a, I don't know if closeness is, is the right word, um, that
he benefited from the input coming from the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and,
obviously, us dropped by in Philadelphia, an ethnic city, much more so then than
now, you know, that a drop by to visit with the Cardinal was, um, it was a
good move and it started off a very, um, close, close maybe is too strong, but an
excellent relationship between Krol and Nixon. As you, as I'm sure you know,
Krol was, I believe he was a native of Poland. I think he was born in Poland and
steeped in Eastern European history, knowledge, politics, and he became a
confident of the President's during, uh, his administration. And in '72, you have to check
the records, I believe he was the first Archbishop of the Church, Cardinal of the
Church, to address a political convention, and from, uh, and there's a funny story with
that, with that too, but the funny story is that when I went up in the White House, I used to talk to Cardinal Krol all the time because
Nixon wanted to know what he was thinking. The same with Cardinal Cooke in
in New York and Cardinal Cooke was a long-time relationship with, with the
President before campaigns. I don't know how far back it went with Krol.
I think that was cultivated after he became but it was, you know, it was decided
that it would be great to have a Cardinal of the Church deliver the
invocation to the for the start the convention in '72. And so, um, I got the
assignment to call Cardinal Krol and called him and said it just straightforward and he said, "Now, Henry," he said, "I think you're a smart man but you're not asking
the right question." And I said, "Well, your Eminence, I'm not sure how you, how you
want it," and he said, "Well, let me put it this way: the man you're talking about,
Mr. Nixon, what is he?" I said, "He's President of the United States." "And who wants me
to do invocation?" I said, "The President of the United States." He said, "Now, it's not the
Republican party. It is the Office of the President of the United States," and he said, "If I
get a call from the President of the United States, I will be inclined to accept.
Have you got that now?" And he had a great sense of humor. He used to like to mess
around with me. As it turned out, he went up, he was on vacation somewhere in, I
believe, New Jersey playing golf, and this was for '72, and got the call up there, um, from the White House that Nixon, you know, was calling him, and, uh, he, they sent somebody out to get him off the golf course and they said, "Well, John, you know,
what's the big deal?" He said, "I left word I only wanted to be disturbed if it was
the Pope or the President." And off he went to take the call, and he came back
in and everybody was saying, "So what gives?" He said, "It wasn't the Pope." Anyhow, he, he
delivered the, the invocation and, uh, that was-- He, he just had a thing.
There were a lot of places where he would stop and visit with the
Archbishop of whatever town he was in or meet with, with various clergy. He, uh, always
felt that there was a pulse of a major city, that a Cardinal of the Catholic
Church knew what was going on. PM: The campaign is over. Richard Nixon has won.
When do you make the decision that you're going to go to Washington or you're
going to go back to Detroit? HC: Um. HC: Well, you know, I would say had the, had the bug at
that point but I came back Detroit, went back to my law firm, and then in January,
I got a call from Ehrlichman to come to Washington. I think it was first week in
February and there was no disclosure what we were doing, where we were going.
He said, "Get, get your passport and your papers and everything else. We're,
we're going, we're leaving the country," and I said, "Well, okay," and he said, "Just, just
show up." And so, I did. And so, I did [laughs]-- that's stupid. Anyhow. Um, we, uh, we - I'm trying to think of the guys who were on the trip - all assembled and briefed, briefed briefly and spent the night at the Hay-Adams
Hotel, then took off for Andrews and boarded a plane, and Ehrlichman, uh, you know,
was aboard and he was talking to-- Okay, there was Ron Walker, myself,
John Nidecker, Dan Kingsley, and "Easy Ed" Morgan. And I was originally going to
London and, uh, we were back in the plane and doing the advance, and then and Walker
said, "You know, why, why aren't you doing the Vatican in Rome?" and I said, "I don't know."
He said, "Well, this is crazy. You ought to be doing it. You're the only Catholic in the
crowd." So, he went up and asked John. John said, "That's what my original thought was
- to have Henry do Rome and the Vatican but," he said, "you know, I worry about
whether or not his, his commitment to the Catholic Church might affect his ability
to, to operate on behalf of the President." And Ron said, "That's nuts."
He said [laughs], "He'll know how to handle that one." So we switched and we, we flew
to, to Brussels. Dropped off Kingsley, I guess, in Brussels. Then I took off for, um, Berlin, I guess, and to hook up with Frank
Borman the astronaut because Nick Ruwe was his tour guide, at that point. He was
running his tour to experience, um. What the hell was it? No, I went to Bonn, Germany from Berlin - from
Brussels, I went to Bonn and hooked up with, with Borman, and then we went to
Italy after that, and to do, to experience what, what type of trip Borman was having.
Colonel Borman having circled the Moon, well, he was an international big-time
hero and everywhere he went, they were all yelling "Moon Man" and all. There's no
controversy, nobody throwing tomatoes or anything at him. I mean, it was, it was a
great time. I just road along and observed and got to Rome and waited for
the rest of the gang to come to Rome and we did. I stayed in Rome. They went on to
France and back home, and during that time, Erlichman had, you know, marked off
where we were going, had an idea of every place that, that was involved. No but it
was a great trip. It was a wonderful trip. You know, and he got back, he being Ehrlichman, got back to Washington, and then we were putting the schedule together. He, he had, we had
a transatlantic conference call that lasted all day long with guys on the
phone from everywhere you were and he had it, you know, 'Okay, where are we gonna
lay the wreath? Where we're gonna do this? Where we're gonna do that?' and, you know,
I went over and meet with the people in the Vatican. It was just me there, and, uh, the counterparts. We
had good support from the embassy, the counterparts from the Italian government,
and only one guy from from the Vatican, a fellow by the name of Monsignor McHugh, and
it was, it was strikingly different in the attitude that we took with the
Vatican and that Johnson had come in there before, right before he went out of
office, and he crashed. You recall his helicopter hit
a high wire. They were landing in back of St. Peter's Basilica and they hit a high wire and the
helicopter crashed and an agent was killed and, uh, then when they came to the
time for exchange of gifts, they brought in a huge press pool. I mean, it wasn't even a
pool, that they just flooded the place and Pope John, um, Pope Paul VI was a very
little man and he was frail but smart and alert and with it and everything, and
everybody just stampeded in there and when it came time for the
exchange of gifts, uh, that Johnson-- First of all, he asked an aide for a knife. He
popped a switchblade knife, which sent the Swiss Guards up the wall, took then
took the knife and put it down one way this way, one way that way on the box, and
then pulled out a bust of himself and he handed it to His Holiness and said, "How
do you like that, Pope?" And so, and I told Monsignor McHugh that we were having a
small, limited press pool which would be, there were about six or seven Catholics
in the group. Maybe not even that many. Maybe there were five of us: Rose Mary
Woods, me, um, there was a young, young military aide by the name of Elmer Junic
that worked for Haldeman, he was a Catholic. And then the principals:
Kissinger, Rogers, um, and General Hughes was aboard-- Anyhow, there's about eight or
ten staff and that was it, and there would be no open exchange of gifts. There
would be a closed exchange of gifts and the press pool would be limited to four or
five, and McHugh said, "And that's it?" I said, "That's it." He said, "I'm gonna you, you have
made my day, my trip." He said, "His Holiness is going to be delighted." He said, "This is,"
he said, "we're done. So if you need me for anything, I'm available." So it was a, it
was a great trip and we, and then he, you know, made the whole trip.
We came to Rome, then he went back to France, and he came back for the trip of
the Vatican, and after he met with the Pope, we were the first, first time
anybody has landed right in Saint, St. Peter's Square, and, uh, when we took off,
the Pope came out onto the balcony and then we brought the helicopters up and held
right out in front of the porch, and he gave a papal blessing to the two
helicopters and we tipped them and flew back to Ciampino and then out. And so,
it was, it was a great trip. We landed. John talked to me. After that, I came up
to see him when we got back and said, "We'd like you to come aboard as Deputy Counsel," and I said,
you know, "Let me get back home, just check, say hello to my wife." And I remember
talking to my father's lawyer in Detroit and he said, "The only--" he said, "You're
gonna do it. You're nuts if you don't do it but," he said, "but like you go talk to David
Kendall, who was formerly counsel to Dwight Eisenhower and who was practicing
attorney, former general counsel of Chrysler. And I went in to see Mr.
Kendall as a young guy and said, "Do you think how to do it?" or whatever. He
said, "You're gonna break your father's heart because I know how close you guys are
and, you know, you're eventually probably going to practicing law together but," he said,
"only thing I can tell you is how fast can you pack your bags and get out of
here, Henry? And take the job and get going." So, I left that week and it was sometime
in March, um, and, you know, I had to start the job at the White House as Deputy
Counsel. PM: What did you think the job was going to be? What was your portfolio when you took the job as Deputy Counsel?
HC: I had no idea. I mean, I really didn't. PM: And this is working for John Ehrlichman? HC: Ehrlichman. Yeah. And Sears was already there. You know, you're talking about whether it was legal work. I mean, uh, there were, um. Morgan was
there. He was a Deputy Counsel. Sears was the Deputy Counsel. I was. Bud Krogh was a
staff guy, he wasn't a Deputy Counsel yet, uh, and I don't know what Whitaker's title was. Whitaker
eventually get the title of Cabinet Secretary but I don't-- He maybe had
something before then. So, there were there were three of us. Sears was doing
political work all the time. I mean, he didn't, he didn't bother with the
Counsel's office. So, it was me and Morgan and I didn't have a clue what I, what I
was going to be doing, you know. I mean, I was admitted to the Bar in 1964. So I
barely had two years of legal practice. So, I wasn't a real veteran of legal
experience but I had a lot of political experience in a short period of time.
And then John eventually divided up the departments and I became the liaison man
with, with Housing and Urban Development, Department of Transportation, the Post
Office, and the Civil Service Commission, and I was a point man for everything that
was going on with those, those departments. And, you know, it was-- Jeez. We had the, we had the,
in the first year, the postal strike, we had the air traffic controllers strike.
Those were two of my departments and, you know, there was no shortage of work. We had seven
o'clock staff meeting every morning and going strong but it was, you know, it was,
it was fun and there was a great group of guys and, you know, the White House
Mess that people would meet in there. They were-- And they'd have a
drink at the end of the day, and I remember Al Haig coming in all the time
and Kissinger would stick his head in and, and start yelling at Haig and Haig
would say, "I don't what the hell he's yelling about. I'm gonna stick around all
night and do all his work for him." [laughs] He said, "So," he said, "I'm gonna sit here and
relax for a while." And, I mean, it was, it was, it was fun. You know, you knew General
Hughes, you knew Ziegler, you knew Jerry Warren you knew Whelihan, you knew the guys in the Press Office, Chapin, Steve Bull, Haldeman, uh, Larry Higby. I mean, they were, it was like an old--
This was the gang that was, you know, really very close to each other and
loyal and I'd say loyal to a fault. Loyal. Nobody was out seeking any, any, uh, that
came later with later staff. But out of that group that started, nobody
was looking for exposure in the press, for looking for any adulation. I mean, I
think Bob kind of set the level that 'Boys, we're working. We got, we all got one
guy that we're working for and if he does well, we all do well.' And the
best advice I got coming in there was from Harlow. We used to joke around. He
used to call me Reverend because of the work with the Catholics and we were
kidding around one day and he said, "Reverend, let me just tell you one thing."
He said, "I want you to be the same guy going out of this office as you are
coming in", and he said, "because you if remember one thing, that you are nothing."
He said, "The important thing that people reflect on is you're in here and you get
a title and you get an office in the White House and they're gonna want to
use you and they're gonna kiss your rear end as a young guy who might be pretty
impressionable because they want something. So just remember, it's not you
that's, that's anything. You're just a warm body who happens they have a place
in the White House." And he said, "As long as you remember that, you're the same guy
going out of here you were coming in and at the end of the day, you return all your
telephone calls, you're gonna be okay." And he said, "Let's have
some fun." It was the best advice, you know, I ever got. Um, anyhow, um, but I worked for
John - those, those departments - and had fun working of him. Worked hard. We did a lot
of hours. Went out back and forth to San Clemente. Uh, you know, I remember when
Ehrlichman said, "Would you, would you work with DeMarco out in California..." I think his name
was DeMarco, uh, who was one of Herb Kalmbach's law partners, "on transferring the papers
out there to donate them to the Nixon Library?" Um, it was, you know, "We could take the, take,
you could take a tax deduction and donate them." And I said, "Sure." You know, so I was gonna go back and forth to California a few times and Morgan said,
"You know," he said, "I got a girlfriend out there. Do you mind if, if I take over this
this stuff?" I forget what he, it was any-- Herb Kolmbach's partner. They had a
very successful law partner. Kolmbach was very involved and, and so I said, "If it's
alright with John, it's okay with me, Ed." Ed and I were right across the hall
from me, I mean, we had sort of suite of offices between us and, uh. Um. So, I remember later,
going on, Ed went out there and he was doing the job and they were going to
donate the, the papers to whomever they were donating them to while they still
were able to take the take a deduction for the donation of the papers, and the
file is still sitting on Ed's desk, and I said, "Ed, what are you doing with these
things?" And he's "Oh, I'll take care of it. They're not, it's not a big deal." I said,
"It is a big deal unless you got it taken care of. I, you know, it's your deal but, man." And
that's how he got in trouble. Crazy, 'cause Ed was a good guy. A
real good guy. And Krogh, same way. Krogh was a good guy. If you wanted to find
probably one of the most honest, if I want to say one of the most honest
people I've ever known in my life was Bud Krogh. Anyway, I worked for John and had
a great time. Got a lot of exposure to the Post Office to Red Blount and Romney to
John Volpe. Uh, you know, it was a very heady stuff for, for a young guy but it was it
was fun. My son was born, the first child, born in
1970, and then Harlow came up with this idea with Colson starting the Office of
Public Liaison and they cooked it up and Bryce said, "Chuck, why, why don't you
you go to work with, with Chuck and see if he can make something out of the
office?" And so, I did, and, uh, and that was a lot of fun. I did that for-- We worked on all sorts of stuff until, you know, January of '73. So I was in the Counsel's Office for over a year until we switched when OMB from Bureau of the Budget became the Office of Management and Budget. PM: I want to back up and ask you to give us quick sketches of the characters of some of the men mentioned. What was John Ehrlichman like? HC: I liked John a lot. I did a lot
of, a lot of work for him because he was, he was, John was, they'd call him the "tour
director." He was on the plane and he was he and Bob were responsible for
the, for the campaign but when it came time to moving the
candidate around, all during the, the, uh, campaign, it was John who you were
taking your orders from you, were talking to if you had serious problems, whatever.
So, I got to know him real well and never had a problem with John, uh, ever. I mean, that
was, at any time he was accessible. Very bright. You know, there are a lot of, lot of, uh-- It's occasions that I remember. You know,
things going down. The firing of Wally Hickel. I mean, going through the postal
strike, the air traffic controller strike, the dealing with Ed Williams. That
was a crazy lawyer's name who was representing the air traffic controllers.
F. Lee Bailey who, you know, showed up drunk. He didn't show up drunk. He
didn't show up for to try and re-- But I'm getting off track. But, but anyhow,
Ehrlichman I thought was, uh, he had a wonderful wife and a great family and if
there was, you know, a lousy side to him, if whatever, whatever, I never saw it. John
was, as far as I was concerned, was was accessible, he was fair, he had a great
sense of humor, and I enjoyed working with him, and he was, he
was a good guy, you know. In addition, that first year, there was a lot of traveling. Took
the first trip to Europe. Took the trip around the world in, in July. Then went
back to Ireland in, in the fall when he went back. So, you know, I was gone a
fair amount of that time. But John, John, as far as I was concerned-- Same with Bob.
You know, everybody worked for Bob in that, you know, he was Chief of Staff. But
my directions and what I was doing came from, came from Ehrlichman and, um. You know,
I've got nothing but very positive things to say about John. I mean, and we
remained friends up until I talked to him right before he died in the hospital and
the nurse said, "He can't talk but he can hear you." And she put the phone up
and I said goodbye to him on the phone and he knew he's dying. He took
himself off dialysis. But, you know, it was rough for me to accept what eventually
happened to him because here's a guy who had a huge very successful law practice
in Seattle. He didn't need all of this and, you know, he, I guess he, you know he
could have been rough. He had, he was, he was capable of dealing with, with people
the way he had to deal with them but my experience with him was, was, was great.
I thought he was a wonderful guy. PM: Bob Haldeman. HC: Haldeman, it's the same way. I mean, Haldeman, I respected, uh, all the way. Bob, as long as you were
straight with him and he knew that you you were, you didn't have a separate
agenda, that your loyalty was to the President of the United States, which-- And
you know, I'm not patting myself on the back but mine was and I didn't. I, you
know, you almost were afraid to try and, you know, talk to a reporter or something
so your name would show up in the paper that somebody would, you know. Bob, I laughed with him. Whenever I needed anything from him, I was, he
was accessible. Um. You know, I mean, he was a guy-- I agreee with Walter Cronkite one
time when he was talking to me and Ziegler down at, he spoke at when
Ziegler was president of the, the chain drugstore association and, uh, we're in the
holding room with, with Cronkite before he spoke, and he said, "I just want
tell you guys something. That Haldeman was one guy who was not over his head as
Chief of Staff." The guy had the capability of running that place and he
ran it wonderfully. He, you know, he, he never left until everybody else
was out of there. He was around there until 8, 9 o'clock at night. First guy in
the office in the morning. He never gave very rarely if any talk to the press.
Never sought any, any notoriety for himself other than what
the press managed to give to him. Um. I mean, he, he, he was, he was a tough guy. And Ehrlichman had a sense of humor and so did Bob. Maybe if they'd encouraged a
little more humor and taken things a little lighter. Bob, in particular, not John.
John, you know, John could, could laugh at himself. So could Bob. But anyhow,
they were dedicated public servants who were both smart as it can be, and Bob, in particular.
A very bright guy. I mean, he could devour and consume paperwork and
knowledge of, of anything that was coming his way and he ran a tight ship. PM: When did you first meet Chuck Colson? HC: Uh. When he, when he came to the White House.
I guess I might have met him somewhere during, you know, during the inaugural stuff or
something like that but I didn't meet him. We had, we had a little bit of affinity
with each other. We'd both gone to Brown. He was working right, right, you know,
when he first started off, um, in the office right, right close to where I was, uh, and I
hit it off with Chuck. We got along great. We had a lot of fun with each other, um, uh, and
I thought he was a good guy and, uh, so, we, you know, we-- I didn't but I
didn't really meet him 'til he came aboard. Harlow brought him aboard. He came into the
White House and then he came up with this idea of the Office of Public Liaison and
running that thing and that's where that took off and I switched, which I'm
I'm glad I did, from going and then when the Domestic Council came in and all of that
sort of stuff. Because, I mean, I really had fun doing the policy, the Public Liaison
because we were dealing with outside organizations all over the place and
meetings and, you know, it was, it was fun and substantive. So, uh, then, you know, when I started
work with Chuck, then I was in the right in the office right next to him in
the suite of offices and moved down from where I was next to Morgan and we did a
lot of stuff together and, you know, I still see Chuck today. I was-- He's the
reason I joined the law firm where I met Charlie Martin, his former, former partner
who became a dear friend and, you know, Chuck was a hard charger. I mean, he was,
no question about it. I mean, he, he went for the jugular and he was dedicated to
getting the job done, and, uh, and he did. You know, some might say
he, uh, he didn't know when to read the stop sign [laughs] but, uh, you know, it, um. You know, it was a great experience and Chuck, Chuck was, Chuck's a very smart, capable guy. PM: What was the original idea for the
Office of Public Liaison? HC:To bring outside input to the Office of the
President, to the, to the White House staff from the business community, the
the Jewish community, the Catholic community, the entertainment. Um. You name it.
I mean, from the labor unions. I mean, that's how Chuck got involved with
Peter Brennan and the AFL-CIO, and develop a rapport with, with, with those guys and
it was, it was great idea. Harlow and Chuck cooked it up and we, I mean, we had
meetings, you know, when we were going, going for government, government
reorganization. That was one big thing. They were gonna divide up the departments
or consolidate the departments, um, and there was one major, major other initiative
that we had. Anytime there was a briefing from outside groups, trade
association groups, private business groups, uh, you know, we'd bring them, in talk to
them about the priorities of the President. Uh, you know, I ended up bringing in
athletes and entertainers and clergy and a group of Sephardic Jews and, I mean, you
know, it was, it was, it was, it was an exciting time, and Sammy Davis Jr.,
Ted Williams, Carl Yastrzemski, you know. I mean, it was exciting because the
President was a sports nut and, um, you know, I mean. So, it was, it was to make
sure we were, we were, we were getting the input from the outside groups that, that
needed to offer the White House the benefit of what they thought we were
doing right or wrong, and, um. Anyhow, that's-- Did that for from sometime
mid-1970, early 1970, I guess, till I left in '73. PM: Your portfolio was pretty
broad. You had celebrities, a bit of labour, a large part of the Catholic
portfolio, and so forth, and you worked closely with Chuck Colson on these
issues, obviously. What were your goals? How did you get there? How did you reach
out to Catholics? You spent a lot of time talking to the hierarchy but you also
worked with the Knights of Columbus and other groups. HC: Yeah. I mean, it was for-- In a
lot of ways, talking the hierarchy was to, um, get their advice on, um, what they considered
the priority issues affecting the country and what was the pulse of, of
their people. What were they were they talking about
and what was coming to their attention. Um. You know, it was-- The
objective was to explain to any of the outside organizations - not necessarily the
entertainers, they were they were ones that, in a lot of different ways, they
were used, used not in a bad way, in a good way - but it was to explain where the
President was on, on a particular issue and whether he was, he was in favor of, you know,
aid to non-public schools. He was anti-abortion. You know, he was on all
fours on the Catholic issues to make sure that the, uh, the Catholics knew that-- And
Nixon really believed. I mean, you know, he has the Silent Majority and all of that. He,
he was convinced that, that he had a wide open shot at the ethnic America, that he
could relate to them and talk to them, that they were the patriots, they were
good people, they were family people, and that, that's where he wanted to deliver
his focus, and he did. And the Catholic Church happened to be one large element of
that, that we were available to explain what he was doing and to get their input on
what he needed to concentrate on, if anything, but he was on all fours as far as the issues
that the Catholic Church had to deal with and, you know, it's one of the
reasons you talk to the Cardinals. The Cardinals were more - Cooke, Krol, in particular - for
input coming back to him Krol would come in and he and Nixon with what putt in
his office and they talked about Eastern Europe, which Nixon was fascinated on
what was going on in Poland, how strong were the Communists, you know, and Krol
was very knowledgeable. You know, with the athletes and, you know, some, some of them,
they undertook programs, charitable programs, Sammy Davis Jr. anti-drug
programs. Uh. They, they, um, Nixon was, he loved sports. He loved to communicate with the
athletes and, and there was some of them that he - Arnold Palmer - I mean, you know,
those were, those were other guys he wanted to visit with that - Miss America -
that wanted to see the President. And he'd, you know, be coming in and saying "What am I seeing
Miss America [laughs] for?" and Bob said, "It's good for you just being around Miss America." But, uh. PM: So, "Wilt the Stilt" instead of-- HC: "Wilt the Stilt. I don't know what happened to Wilt the Stilt." At least for me, he never came back but Ted Williams came back and a
lot of football players. Floyd Patterson the boxer, Sammy Davis. PM: George Allen.
HC: George Allen. Yeah. I mean, you know, he had a lot of them in there. I mean, it was-- But we had-- And then the business community, the agriculture community. There was all of
that stuff about the dairy farmers. The dairy farmers were in there and Pat Hillings was representing them but, you know, Nixon was he wanted to meet with
them to find out what was going on, to get their support on, on farm subsidies.
PM: Well, I want to ask you briefly about one subset of this because
there's, at least it struck me as unusual, I think there was a day or a morning or
a weekend, I can't remember which, when NASCAR drivers, racecar drivers, came to
the White House and I think you were involved in that, to some extent. HC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. PM: Can you tell us about that? HC: Well, it, that, that was, you know, when people
focused on what a huge sport this was and that hey, this is a crowd that, that, uh,
maybe nobody's paying attention to but we oughta, that they are bigger and
bigger all the time and this is a constituency that, uh, we'd like their
support. So maybe we ought to do something for them. And then the idea of
a White House reception for the, for the NASCAR drivers and you had all of the
big guys that we made contact with and not only was it a colorful event but it, but
it associated Nixon with NASCAR racing, NASCAR drivers in the south and that
part of the world that, that he was looking to develop - not develop - to
hold and cultivate and expand on. And so, you know, we had all these cars parked
around in the west, the west circle of the White House in front of the Portico
is there, and, you know, Richard Petty and you know, all of the the big time drivers and
had a great reception and it was, it was a wonderful time but, um, it involved John Damgard. I know a lot of these guys. He was working for Agnew that he got, he got
involved, and we took off and just started, you know, making contact with the
drivers and the sponsors and, and before long, we, you know, Andy Granatelli. We
had the whole works and it was a great event and it was, you know, Nixon was he,
he, he had a sense for-- Traveling around in Ireland
and you'd go by an orphanage and you would, you would see a nun out there
with, with a handful of these great-looking, ruddy-faced little kids and, boy,
he would stop, you know, that motorcade and out he'd go, you know, and, uh, he would
walk back to where all the kids and the nun were seen. Of course, all of them
were saying, "Wow. What a photo opportunity would got here." And it was, I mean, it was, it
was wonderful and those-- I mean, his instincts on politics were, were
great. That was, I mean, I'm backing up but that was a great trip we had to Ireland.
PM: Let's talk about that trip because I am personally interested in this not
because anyone I know was involved. This is, this is a fairly long trip. It's um. HC: Well, he took, he went to Europe again for the second trip to Europe in the fall of 1970. PM: And this is the end of that?
HC: Hmm? PM: And this is at the end of that trip, right? HC: Yes. PM: Yeah. HC: Yep. PM: Why Ireland? Why then? HC: Well, of course Mrs. Nixon was Irish. Pat
Ryan and that, and the Milhous side of Nixon was Irish. So one of, one of the
President's biggest supporters was a fella by the name of John Mulcahy and Mulcahy
wanted him to come to Ireland. And so, when you're making this trip, you know,
they came to the conclusion. Not that I hadn't even do with the decision but for
all of those reasons, Mulcahy pushing hard, and he was a huge financial
supporter, and Pat being from, from her family heritage in Ireland and the Mihous
side of the things, and there was a Quaker cemetery over there outside of
Dublin. So all those things said 'Let's go.' And, uh, [laughs] it was a great trip. I mean, uh, it was wonderful. I mean, uh, you know, I was over there by myself for the,
for the first part of it 'til we get organized and Mulcahy had this - he was a very
wealthy Irish-American - he had this big home in, uh, um, Hospital, Ireland, which was his regular house, then he had a big, um, apartment in the
Gresham Hotel in Dublin, then he had his his fishing villa up in Waterville,
Ireland. And, you know, we drove, drove around looking for where we were gonna
go, what we were gonna do, and the President was staying, and he was going to go
to the cemetery and, um, from the cemetery we went to Ireland to meet with the Prime Minister.
Then it was out in Mulcahy's house in Hospital, Ireland, where he stayed and, but, I mean, he
covered a lot of part, a lot of Ireland. But it was it was a great trip. The Irish
are great people. Wonderful reception. He went, a big, at Dromoland Castle a big press
reception there. We went to the cemetery, which was a Quaker burial cemetery and
that was in Timahoe, Ireland, which was the name of his dog, then into meet
with, with Jack Lynch was the Taoiseach, the Prime Minister, in a state luncheon,
and then out to Mulcahy's after that for a state dinner. But it was, you know, because I was, I was over there for a couple of weeks before he came and it was, I mean, it was great fun.
I'm saying it was great fun on reflection but it was a lot of work 'cause you're covering
a lot of territory when you're, when you're over there and you're by yourself and
the Secret Service agents. But I had the pleasure of meeting President de Valera.
I went to his house, had a glass of sherry with him and, you know, he was
blind and he was 92 or 93, at that point. Big, tall man. Stood straight up erect
and, I mean, it was-- John Moore was our Ambassador and, anyhow, it was those
foreign trips were he loved them. He loved to sit one-on-one with whoever the head
of state was, find out what was going on and to match wits and exchange, you know,
ideas with our allies, with our non-allies, whoever it was. A trip to the
Philippines in '69, we were on schedule to meet with the
opposition leader and, um, the Marcos people said, "We don't want you to meet with the
Marcos - with the opposition leader." I forget what his name was. PM: Was it Ninoy Aquino? HC: Hmm? PM: Aquino. HC: I think so. Yeah. And, uh, so, I went, "You know, he, we're on
schedule to meet with him." And he said, "Well, we might, we might, you know, object
to that and, you know, you shouldn't meet with him." And word came back from
Washington, I recall, "You either, we either meet with them or we fly right
over the Philippines. So, you can tell Marcos' people that if they don't want us to
stop, that's the thing to do." And we met with him. But that one, that was a great trip. The Philippines, I mean. Imelda Marcos, she was something else. I mean, I was talking back to Washington, I talked to
Whitaker about, about the trip and I said, "Man. This gal is a tough lady. She's
all ready to change plans and do this, that, and the other thing." And he said, "You
better slow up. You know, have you had your room swept?" And I said, "Boy. I haven't." And so, they sent the guy over from the CIA and, um, he checked it out and I said, "How'd we do? We clean?"
He said, "Yeah, you're clean." He said, "You got enough power in here to equal that,
that moon rocket that's about ready to lift off from the front lawn of the..." or
wherever they were going from. So, anyhow, they had bugged my whole room. But, anyhow, I don't know where we were but that was, that was a great trip. PM: Well, let's talk a
little bit more about the labor issues. There's one thing I want to come back to.
HC: Is there a men's room I could use? PM: Yeah. Absolutely. Let's take a break. PM: I looked through your office files,
actually, last week, preparing for this. Murray Chotiner. You worked a little bit
with him. HC: [Laughs] Yeah. I worked with, uh, with Chotiner, um, you know, on political stuff.
I like Murray and I remember the first contact I had with Murray was in
Miami at the convention in 1968 when after Agnew was, was named and the bunch
of us contemporary young guys-- I remember Chapin was with me, we went in to see
Murray. We were worried about Agnew. Who was he? We didn't know who he was and he was laying in the
bed in his room with a drink on his stomach. He had a stomach that kind of
came out a little bit and he said, "I don't know what you guys are all worried about." He said,
"There has never been a Vice President who has made any difference in an
election with the exception of Lyndon Johnson." And he said, "The Vice President can never really
help you but he can hurt you but," he said, "I don't think this guy's gonna make any
difference at all." And then he came to the White House and
he would show up at political meetings and, um. You know, I, I liked him as a person.
That's what was my communications. I used to love to get the benefits of his
political insight. And, uh, so, I never did a lot of work with Murray other than to
talk to him and and engaging in political conversation about his
thoughts of what was going on. But the most telling thing is I ran into him at
his law firm. I, I didn't have much contact with, with Committee to Re-elect
the President, CREP, and I don't know, I went over there once and I was coming down
and I saw ran into Chotiner was in law firm over there. He and Hillings
were together. I forget who they were with. Maybe they-- Were they with Marion
Harrison? Maybe-- I don't know who they were with but Chotiner said, "Come on in and let's,
let's have a drink." So we went in there, we're having to drink, we're talking and
he said, "You've been upstairs?" And I said, "Yeah." He said, "So, what do you think?" And I said, "Not much." And he said, "I tell ya, it's worse than that because Maurice Stans has raised
more money than any other finance chairman in history," and he said, "Mitchell,
his mind is, is elsewhere. He's not focusing on running the place. He's got
trouble at home and that is driving him off his focus and he's, he's, he's
drifting. He's letting everybody run." And he said, "There's a bunch of guys up there who have
no idea what they're doing and they're gonna get in trouble."
And he said, "I called the old man to let him know that he doesn't even need a
committee. We could run this thing out of the White House and he's gonna win so
easily. And Bob called me back and I gave Bob the benefit of my thoughts and he said he'd talk to the old man." He said, "So, I've let him know and that's it." But
that's the most, you know, the most uh, telling thing about Chotiner. He was--
Next thing he knew, he was, he was in an automobile accident out in front of Ted
Kennedy's house and Kennedy was responsible for getting him to Sibley
Hospital and they moved him from there and he died of the blood clot. But, you know, I
didn't do a lot of work with Chotiner other than if we were touching base on
what if somebody would say, you know, "See what, what Chotiner thinks about such and
such an issue" or whatever. But I liked him. I mean, he was, he was a friend. PM: Well, I just saw the name came up. HC: Yeah. PM: And it was, you know. HC: He was a friend. I knew Nancy, his wife,
and I worked with her on conventions from years after. She's a nice lady.
