Responding to Ben Shapiro Responding to Me

all right listen I'm not gonna lie I've tried to record this about four different times and something keeps happening the last thing that happened is Thursday interrupted me was going on a it was a great stream I was on a roll I sounded so brilliant so intelligent and then he interrupted me so I fired him and now we're back so it reminds me of that song from this is just a tribute you gotta believe me and I wish you were there um this is not the best response to Ben Shapiro in the world okay we did that one and it was interrupted by Thursday this is just a tribute so if I come off as Meandering and Scattered again it's all Thursday's fault um Ben Shapiro recently commented on my interaction with Dennis Prager on the topics of pornography lust and masturbation if you haven't yet seen that interaction between me and Dennis I'll put a link in the description below it's about a 47 minute clip in which we go back and forth on these different topics disagreeing trying to understand each other and it was really fascinating just the other day Shapiro uh recommended that people watch it um I would imagine he sides more with Prager than with me but I was grateful for his promotion of it and he has some things to say on lust and porn so I want to respond to that today if you're wondering about the interview with Prager that came about because he was giving a talk here on campus at Franciscan University of Steubenville and somebody asked would you like to have Prager on the show I said yeah sure I'll have him on the show but then he made those comments on daily wire's Exodus program about if a man looks at pornography to avoid adultery it's not awful and I thought that that was an awful thing to say and so I was wondering whether I should have him on the show and came very close to canceling actually I ran up by my local supporters and many of them said we think you should still have him on the show and I decided okay I'll have him on the show but we have to discuss what he said on pornography like if this is something he said but doesn't want to revisit because he got so much blowback from it then I can't have him on the show like I've written books on porn I I speak to people about the dangers of pornography I can't have him on my show just to talk about like how he keeps kosher or something as interesting as that is um like it would have to be talking about pornography so we got on a phone call and I said as much to him I said look I'm grateful that you're coming on my show you've got a much bigger platform than me and I'm grateful for that I don't want to put you on the spot so I just want you to know that I have I have to address this and to his credit he said Matt I'm an open book I'm more than happy to discuss it's a terrible Dennis Prager impression but you get the point he said he was open to discussing it okay well the show is really good it's interesting I don't know if people encounter spirited conversation as much as they used to without it devolving and so I don't know if people have like a lower tolerance for it these days I saw comments under my interaction with him people saying Dennis seemed like he was getting defensive and angry no he wasn't you're just too sensitive he was great the whole time he was awesome I have a very itchy nose I need to comment on that so I can do this he was lovely uh I obviously disagree with him I think he holds views that are bad um but you know it was it was it was a Charming discussion and we left on good terms with that said let's go over to the Shapiro and see what he has to say I click play and it didn't work let's try it again don't make me look like an it where is it don't make me look like an idioticam come on Daniel says I recently watched it between Dennis Prager and Matt frat on porn at a very interesting conversation on sexual desire versus lust do you think there's a difference between these two things can you sexually desire someone like your wife well I'm not lusting for them um you know again I think that there is a distinction without a massive difference the difference between lust and sexually and sexual desire I would say is that sexual desire if there is a difference is that sexual desire in a meaningful way would be lust within the context of a broader commitment to the person I I I'm not okay so Shapiro seems to have advanced a little from prague's view which seems to be there is no difference between sexual desire and lust and I tried to address that in my interview with Prager it's really important that we realize that there is a distinction between sexual desire and lust why because lust like love is an act of the will it's something I have to choose it's not a fleeting thought or emotion and if you think that lust and sexual desire are the same thing uh you'll probably give up on Chastity within five minutes because most of the set much of the sexual desire we experience is outside of our control so it would not make sense to tell people not to do something that they have no control over okay Shapiro seems to be saying yeah there really is maybe not much of a difference at all if there is a difference it has to do with sexual desire but outside of the confines of a committed relationship but he still seems unsure um whether or not there is a difference or a distinction I would Define lust and you know I'm thinking about this in a deeper way than I have before so I'm open to being corrected or helped in the comments section please help me um but I think that lust light what is what does lust do lust reduces a person to their sexual value people obviously have sexual value and that sexual value ought to be valued but when we isolate it from the human person and objectify the individual in that way we're lusting that's what I would say I'm going to pretend that I don't find my wife sexually desirable really glad you do as do I not your wife my wife of course I do and I haven't met your wife I'm sure she's a lovely woman keep going or that I don't feel feelings have lust about my wife of course I do okay but see here it sounds like you're saying that lust is strong sexual desire so I just said what I think lust is maybe it's important if I say what lust isn't lust is not strong sexual desire uh strong anticipation for a sexual experience strong sexual Delight or delightful remembering of a sexual experience these things aren't necessarily lust again lust is when I reduce a person to their sexual value and I think like in our culture it's like we think that like lust is the goal I actually think lust interrupts sexual desire I think it thwarts it I think it minimizes it ah there's a study that's coming to my mind and I'm I wish I had looked this up before the stream which I will not do again that showed that when a woman is in a committed loving relationship and she feels safe she's much more likely to climax much more likely to experience sexual pleasure because the fight flight response isn't engaged um so I think there's really good arguments to show that lust which I do think can happen within marriage uh is actually the an enemy of sexual desire cool you with me what do you think but typically when people mean lost what they typically mean is somebody you don't plan on having a any sort of broader relationship with and you just wish to get your rocks off that's usually how people think of these two things sure that conversation from Dennis Prager and Matt frad on pornography is really interesting thank you I think they're sort of arguing past each other for most we probably were arguing past each other for a lot of it I think that's a fair criticism but it wasn't for lack of trying uh if you watch the show which I know you did but if our viewers watch the show we tried to understand what we meant by sexual desire lust objectification you know evil I said here's what I think evil is what do you think evil is here's what I think pornography is he said what he thought pornography so we were definitely trying to understand each other which I think was part of the uh what would you say part of what made the conversation so interesting conversation you should watch the conversation because it really is interesting producer Savvy uh directed me to this to her Everlasting shame and um it's a it is a really fascinating conversation I'm grateful I am actually grateful I mean Shapiro doesn't seem like the kind of fella who pulls punches if he thought I was a knucklehead which I am but I try very hard to hide that when I'm on these long-form interviews I'm pretty sure he would have went after me so the fact that he said like three or four times now that it was a fascinating conversation no I'm gratified by that I'm glad that he thought so because Dennis seems to be arguing from the perspective of what is the worst thing you could do versus the best thing you could do and where does porn fall on that spectrum and Matt frad is in the it's bad or it's good I don't think that's I don't think that's true I tried to make it clear that there is a a hierarchy here there is a spectrum here I think one of the things I said is obviously some forms of pornography are worse than other forms of pornography that's obviously true I mean think of your typical Playboy centerfold compare that with say child pornography one is obviously less bad than the other but just because something is less bad it doesn't make it good or healthy and some the sense I'm getting from Shapiro and Prager and are not accusing them of holding this view but it just seems like they're saying something like okay in an Ideal World sure but we don't live in the ideal world like we live in this world and but all I'm saying is like men shouldn't look at porn like this isn't the ideal this seems to be like a basic standard of going into a relationship sort of manicky and divide oh no it wasn't me committing the manakee and divide nanakeism I think is an offshoot of Zoroastrianism I think it believes that yes I know it believes that a good God and an evil God and the evil God is responsible for Mata but no I I think matter is so I'm not really sure what you mean maybe when you say maneke and divide you just mean I'm trying to make it a black or white issue but let me say a word on manichaeism anyway because the Catholic church has a high view of the body human beings are Body Soul Composites each being equally a part of who we are you don't have a body you are your body if your body wasn't you then I could never slap you if my daughter's body wasn't her I couldn't kiss her good night to kiss your child good night would merely be to manipulate the husk which is not you and pressing it against the husk which is not him or her you see it's precisely because we are our bodies that we should have reverence for the body because the body is reveal expresses the profound mystery of the person um in fact and again just thinking this through like if you weren't your body if you are merely a you know a soul or a rather a ghost in a machine then maybe it's inconsequential what you do with your body you know like that actually might be an interesting argument for pornography like if we're not our bodies then we could just do whatever we want with them because they're they're not us you know but the reason we talk about degrading people in reference to pornography is because we think people have dignity and their bodies are them right part of them we don't talk about degrading paper clips or washing machines we do talk about degrading bodies because again they express the person all right let's keep going and they're arguing past each other because of that because Dennis appreciates that viewing porn is worse than not viewing good porn obviously he just thinks that on the spectrum of sin viewing porn is not nearly as bad as say adultery which of course is true and obviously there are a lot of gradations here I mean it depends what kind of porn you're looking at how often you look at the porn and what is the context like all of those things matter in terms of I think this is a good point and I think this is going to frustrate some of my Christian viewers here but try to hear me out pornography um rather lust is not identical to adultery when our blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ says when you lust after a woman you commit adultery with her in your heart that in your heart is as important I mean and if you disagree with me okay have you committed lust and if you say yes okay then go to confession and come and confess adultery and just say that I've committed adultery why wouldn't you say that well because adultery and lust are different would you rather your spouse look at a centerfold of a naked woman or commit adultery with somebody else both are evil but one is less bad than the other all things being equal nations of sin but is it a sin sure is there a thing that is good for your soul to look at pornography I think absolutely not so I think that it actually removes your ability to think in in decent ways about other human beings oh very good Shapiro do I think it removes your ability to think of human beings I think you said in decent ways that's key I I do because honestly you want to look at people not as as sexual objects now yes okay fantastic all right so Shapiro is saying that if you look at pornography pornography can train you to treat people as objects that what I mean by lust like obviously like my wife is an object I am an object this glass of whiskey is an object but this glass of whiskey is not a person my wife who is an object is a person right so there are there are objects that are not persons and objects that are persons and then there are also persons who aren't objects those would be Angels but we're not going to talk about them today when you objectify somebody you reduce them it's almost like you and I said this in my my discussion with pragas like the person is evacuated and you're left with the value that you have then reduced them to here's another thing to think about if lust is impossible within marriage because it's like Shapiro seems to be saying something like that right yes I lust after my wife by which it sounds like he means sexual desire and earlier on he said I don't know if there is a meaningful distinction okay listen if you can't lust after your wife or your husband then here's what follows tell me I'm wrong tell me I'm wrong people because I think I'm right um it would follow if lust is impossible within marriage that every woman who has ever said she felt sexually used by her husband was wrong every one of them because say it feeling sexually used is the result of having your uh value reduced to your sexual value like that's just the experience of someone lusting or using you sexually now obviously some women might be wrong in attributing lust to their husbands sure but like every one of them I think for my argument to work I would say this if one woman in the history of mankind has ever said I feel sexually used by my husband and was right then it's possible that you can lust within marriage point is that when you're actually you know copulating with your with your significant to other then you are seeing them as a sexual object in some way that's just a normal part of being a human being and that's and Matt Francis no no that's not that because you're not treating them as a sexual object you actually care about them but I don't think those two things are necessarily you know the right and yes and no because I agree that my wife and I are objects I just want to treat her with love and not use I use objects I love persons it doesn't mean I can't make use of persons but I don't want to subordinate their dignity to a desire I have for sexual pleasure and it sounds like you agree with me because earlier you said that porn trains us to objectify people and and to treat them inappropriately so you agree I think we agree the Polar Opposites they're made out to be in that particular conversation let's put it this way anybody who pretends that everything that happens in the bedroom between a husband and a wife is happening on a purely spiritual plan like everybody's reading Aquinas from harmonies while that's happening I do not think that try that once with my wife I'm like what if we read the Sumer she got super upset it's true or that people are thinking about the higher things while they're having sex I think that is a a far cry from the speaking about the manarchy and divide I think you might be close to this here Shapiro because yes I'm obviously a husband who gives himself to his wife is not thinking and saying I am actively willing you're good but he is doing that I do think that sex is a spiritual act but I'm not divorcing it from the carnal in the way that you seem to be like it sounds like you're making a distinction between no like sex can just be this like carnal animal thing and it doesn't have to be spiritual and by spiritual you mean thinking of lofty theological thoughts but I would say that sex is the most profoundly beautiful sacred thing that two human beings can do together I said that to praga in our back and forth the first commandment in the Bible from God to humanity is to have sex look it up Genesis chapter 1 verse 28 God says be fruitful and multiply so I do think it's a spiritual act and I certainly agree with you though that that doesn't mean uh thinking of Aquinas reality of how people experience and now you can say that that would be the ideal okay no it wouldn't be the ideal at all like it just hey I was thinking tonight we could get together have a glass of wine light some candles crack open that Jewish fella maimonides and discuss whatever that's really not how people generally experience sexual pleasure with that said in the confines of a marriage in the confines of a marriage in which the sex act is actually building up of the marriage and in many cases producing children that obviously has a different connotation than random sex with a stranger you picked up at a bar at 2am yes Blake says all right so a couple of thoughts before we wrap up um it seems to me that saying you cannot you cannot lust over a person who becomes your spouse is like saying you cannot exploit a man who becomes your employee you can objectify those who are not your spouse and you can also objectify your spouse and that's what we kind of mean by lust when we talk about reducing a person to the sexual value so it's never okay to lust after your wife or your husband now at this point you might say to me okay fair enough Matt like I okay I'm with you when you talk about disordered sexual acts I shouldn't be committing sodomy or contraceptive Acts or masturbatory Acts or okay I I I get that but as soon as you start talking about sexual desire versus lust it just feels like there's a line and I can't pinpoint when I cross it does that make sense but I would say well this is true with like all of the seven deadly sins but it doesn't mean they aren't sins like like think of um think of greed Pride um Envy like think of like have you ever been envious have you ever been prideful um I'm just thinking about someone being like no I don't think so well yes that's a good sign uh like if you've ever been envious then I could say to you okay do you remember at the exact precise moment you started to commit the sin of envy and you might say well I guess it's when I willed it yes that's the correct answer but do you remember doing that it's like these things are difficult these things are difficult to pin down but it doesn't mean they're not sins right so maybe I feel maybe I commit the sin of sloth like exactly when do you go from say exhaustion to trying to rest depending the sin of sloth like I might not know but as I grow in moral maturity I'm gonna have more of an idea of when I do cross that line so it seems to me like when it comes to lust or any of these major sins you want to begin by like severing off those obviously disordered actions okay and let's say you've done that you're like okay I don't look at pornography for the most part and when I do I confess I don't masturbate anymore I don't uh I don't commit adultery anymore I don't whatever good let's get rid of that but then the next stage in this moral maturing is to be attentive to the movements of my heart and my desires and to not will to desire something that's contrary to reason right like isn't that what the mature moral Man Would by the way I'm not saying that's me I am wretched so like none of this is like it's not about like if you just follow these three steps and become a local supporter you can be as venerable material as Matt frad it's not what I'm saying hey I'm open to being more of a sinner than than Ben and Dennis and anybody else in fact I it's probably the case um but uh it's just to say that like the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't want us to be whitewashed tombs because that's kind of what that sounded like what Dennis was saying like so long as you're not doing bad things you can think bad things he doesn't want to be whitewashed terms he wants to convert US from the inside out so that's what I got to say about things this has been an interesting episode you let me know what you thought of it below oh one more thing uh in my discussion with Prager the sin of Onan came up at the time I wasn't willing to go down that Rabbit Trail for two reasons one I think you can condemn masturbatori acts without reference to scripture and so that's what I sought to do but two I wasn't prepared to give a response to what he had to say on the sin of onam Onan so I've written an article just the other day here's what I wish I had of said to Prager about that I'll link that in the description below and I hope you enjoy it God bless

Channel: Pints With Aquinas

Views: 281,181

Keywords: aquinas, catholicism, catholic, pints with aquinas, matt fradd, theology, debate, religion, st. thomas aquinas, thomas aquinas, philosophy

Id: 1CK8jaLdkR8

Length: 23min 26sec (1406 seconds)

Published: Sat Apr 29 2023