Healing Antisocial America

welcome back to the word on fire show I'm Matthew petrusic senior director of the word on fire Institute and the host of the word on fire show thanks for joining us alone and more miserable than ever a recent article in the Atlantic magazine Highlights the crisis of isolation befalling the United States despite frequent contact by text and on social media platforms Americans have never been or felt more solitary especially the younger Generations and the consequences are often fatal loneliness is a major cause of the recent spikes in depression anxiety and suicide which are at unprecedented levels smartphones are often identified as the culprit but the source of the problem runs much much deeper the fracturing of the relationships that once embedded Us in thick concentric circles of family and friends in a larger Community can also be traced to a fundamental misunderstanding of individual ISM and what it truly means to be a fully flourishing human person today to discuss the loss of our social bonds and how Catholic thought can help heal and reunite us is Bishop Robert [Music] Baron well Bishop wonderful to have you in the studio again uh today we're going to be discussing healing antisocial America but before we get in what have you been up to recently oh a few different things I was uh I was overseas and uh then I came back from that trip and I stayed in Washington for a couple days because the USCCB has meetings in March if you're a committee chair and one thing I did there was we filmed the first of these roundtables on mental health so we're having a whole initiative around this question of why are so many young people experiencing depression anxiety Suicidal Tendencies so we recorded the first of these I was on with two um psychologists and the idea is to bring pastoral voices Bishops and the mental health professionals into conversation just did that then a couple days ago I was here in my dicese in a in a beautiful church and um installed three young guys as Lector so it's one of the offices as they make their way toward the priesthood so that was uh that was a great joy well the work in Washington D DC is certainly applicable to what we're talking about today there's a a lot of our convers is going to be based on an article uh that recently appeared in the Atlantic called why Americans suddenly stopped hanging out by Derek Thompson and in the article he offers some very startling statistics about just how um isolated we have become across across all demographics uh and we'll look at some of those stats in a moment but the first question to ask Bishop I think just to to sort of establish the the arena is well why should anyone care about individuals increasingly choosing to become solitary in the first place because presumably no one's forcing anyone into their bedrooms to scroll catatonically on their phone in the dark so one sort of first critique may be well why don't we just let people do what they want to do you do you uh and I'll do me yeah I'm not going to force anybody but I can observe that something runs counter to human nature so a Basic Instinct of Catholic Social teaching is that we're we're social animals that goes back to you know Aristotle but was picked up certainly by the church and has strong biblical Roots too too so that by our nature we seek um companionship we seek communion and so if something is driving us into isolation that's finally going to run up against the Basic Instincts of our nature which in turn is going to give rise to all kinds of psychological suffering so I I would say we take Catholic Social Doctrine seriously and that we're we're Political Animals uh I go back to my years of studying Aristotle you know the zoan politicon is one way Aristotle the political animal but the other one he says zoan loyon you know we say the rational animal but loyon means logos is tongue an animal that speaks right so that speech which takes place indeed in a political framework right that's where we speak to each other in this persuasive way it's very important uh to know that about our nature that we're we're designed for communication we're designed to reach out to others right so whatever is isolating us and limiting our capacity for that connection that's ultimately dangerous to us that's that's a fantastic bridge to my next question here um as you frequently noted in your work uh autonomous choice is one of the fundamental characteristics of the contemporary modern conception of of what it means to be an individual self yeah and uh perhaps this is not the case anymore but historically speaking individualism has been lionized in American culture we can think of quintessentially American thinkers like Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David thorough as both embodying and promoting the kind of radical individualism that says well I'm going to set myself apart both mentally and physically uh from the group and we also tend to prioritize Economic Opportunity over over being and staying with family so how does this conception this historic conception of individuality especially in US context compare with a Catholic conception of what it means to be an individual yeah it's a rigid complex question we could do a semester course just on that you know there's a play I go back here to Paul tiik the Theologian who said one of the basic ontological polarities that's way he put it is between individualization and participation so there's a natural tension if you want between I'm me my life my choices on my own don't tell me what to do fine that's legitimate but that's in in Creative tension with participation which means I belong to something bigger than myself I belong to a family to a community to a society to a religion um and on Till's reading those two are in a a creative and healthy tension never resolved you know this side of of the escaton and I think that's a fair way to talk too in in terms of Catholic Social teaching we're not talking about some communitarianism that just negates the individual well no you know I go right back I preached on this not long ago that wonderful passage from Ezekiel so um so we're talking you know 6th Century BC when Ezekiel says you know if if you sin well then you're responsible not your children if your father sinned you know that's his responsibility it doesn't come to you and we might say well you know of course but that was a major breakthrough in Consciousness it's it's Carl yaser's axial period right that around the same time when the Greek philosophers when Socrates and Company are emerging so there's this breakthrough in the Israelite prophetic Consciousness that we're not just just members of a community we also stand on our own so that's the tension you want to respect Catholic Social teaching certainly holds to the the privacy and the Dignity of the individual and that we do have a distinctive profile when I can say no that's my choice and that's something I decided to do morally and I bear responsibility for it great but that individual is not the sort of modern individual you know Sheely autonomous and and self-reliant and all that no no the individual now belongs in dialogue with something that he participates in so I I would see that's the healthy tension we want so someone who may not uh knows Catholic Social thought well especially the the anthropological element that you're you're uncovering here uh May read something for example by St Thomas aquinus so he writes in on kingship it is natural for man more than for any other animal to be a social and political animal to live in a group so the Contemporary Year may hear that and say well no actually Catholic Social thought is sort of pedestal in the communal good or or maybe even sort of in a in a communistic framework the the communal good is more important than the individual good is it you're saying that's not an accurate portrayal because I the same acquaintance who said that would also clearly hold to the Integrity of the individual in his or her moral choices and you know would certainly follow ezekiel's Instinct from the biblical period so no it's it's the it's the and probably what's more needed today is the communitarian emphasis because see we're on the far side of that great split by which the premodern was left behind and the modern was embraced you could pursue it metaphysically if you want where metaphysically speaking things were seen as individuals without essential relationship prior to that go back to acquaintance's participation metaphysics and things are seen as as always already connected to each other you know so that makes a difference but I think ainus is a is a bridge figure there I mean he would certainly affirm all that we want to affirm about the individual and his uh you know communitarian aspiration another complexity that we see in in Catholic thought in general with regards to the question of loneliness and what it means to be an individual is the fact that our tradition holds up some individuals who choose radical Solitude as Saints so so Hermits you know someone like uh St Anthony the great so recognizing that there potentially is a place for moral and spiritual greatness in solitude how do we make a distinction between positive Solitude and and negative solitude no that's good because it's not like an isolation for the sake of isolation I mean all those people like Anthony of the desert or you know the great uh people that the carthusians and so on they're not seeking their own private space so much they're seeking a place to pray and prayer which links them to God necessarily links them to everything else so coming out of that her hermetical and and um uh monastic tradition is often a keen sense of social responsibility you know and praying for the world I think that the way of Anthony of the desert you know gives rise ultimately to monasticism as people came to join him in that life and then through people like athanasius who wrote about him and Augustine who emulated him the whole Western monastic tradition comes from that comes in many ways Western Civilization so I would say what you see in Anthony is not a sort of as you say self-isolating scrolling through your your um Facebook feed it's a it's a very feun it's it's a very fertile sort of isolation for the sake of the Kingdom along those same lines how do we give from a Catholic perspective an account of the the good of Silence itself so we can think of some religious orders that impose silence how do we how do we reconcile that with ainus conception that we are speaking creatures you know drawn from Aristotle yeah I it's just the rhythm between them you know and and the thing is within the mystical body I think it's fine that some people are hyper dedicated to one of these great ideals so I'm glad we have trapis and I'm glad we have very talkative people I'm glad we have some who are relatively isolated some who are radically communitarian that's kind of the chestertonian Insight too that within the mystical body there's room for all this the trouble is to impose let's say one's particular uh spiritual inspiration on the entire church I go back there to something caral George said which has always stayed in my mind he said just as I I'm very glad there are celibates in the church I'm also very glad not everyone's a celibate and then he compared that to a pacifists he said I'm glad there are pacifists in the church because they witness to the way we will all live in heaven but I'm also glad that not everyone's a pacifist because you need some people in society not to be pacifist so I think that's the rubric under which we should read all that I'm glad there are trappists also glad not everyone's a Trappist you know um there's the both and again seems to point to catholicism's great power to reconcile what are only apparent uh contradictions in the body of Christ yeah I mean Chesterton was the Great Master of that I think of paradox and and he saw the the beautiful tapestry which is not just things in isolation next to each other but a really integrated View um what's that lovely line he has about you know because a a saint fasted in the Snows of the north they throw flowers at his Feast Day in the South right you know it's lovely it's a lovely sense of of the Catholic um integration what's what's within Catholic thought so important about physical contact being in physical sort we can even say incarnational community with each other well that's that's the answer right it's very important isn't it because the what these machines have done to us and we're all addicted to them I you know they were designed be addictive and we're all addicted to them and screens screens serve a purpose look we're on a screen right now so I get it I get it I mean it it can be used very well but it does distance you and right we're embodied Spirits we're not just Spirits we're not just bodies we're embodied spirits and the body is the is the vehicle by which uh you come to know me and I come to know you so right now you're hearing me speak and you're looking at me and you're watching gesture and so on uh and we know this psychologically people die from lack of of physical contact so I think that's a deeply Catholic sensibility and the screen culture is dangerous from that standpoint I I quite agree with that it's that's why we have to we have to limit screen time don't eliminate it you know but you have to limit it and I think parents I mean you know that um but the whole society I think we should be sensitive to how how involving these things are in an addictive way right what about the role of the family in uh in proper individual development um should we understand the family as a kind of voluntary Association that we choose or something that's that's given to us or I suppose both well that's closer isn't it yeah it's given to us and and there's see I like the fact the American thing is very much on you know my choice and I will decide I will enter into this but there's always in inescapably and always already quality to life the fact that and I were speaking English here we didn't choose that I chose to study English the course of my life and choose to chose to deepen uh my sense of it but it was given to us it's a world that we were born into um I think Catholic Social teaching recognizes that there are certain given to life one of which is our connection to each other um willly nilly were connected through God to each other um I belong to to a church from the time I was a kid my I was baptized into it long long before I was capable of anything like Choice good good that's acknowledging these C these truths I was a member of the mystical body long before I could choose anything right just as I became an English speaker long before I could choose to speak English um I think that's there go back to Tik again one of the other polarities he identifies he calls it freedom and Destiny so Freedom we all get that Destiny meant this giveness you're given I used when I when I taught that years ago I used to use the example of my becoming a priest I was say now did I become a priest freely well yeah I I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to say that if I tried to get out of my Priestly vows i' have a very hard time because I know I freely entered into them but by the same token was it an utterly free you know self-creating decision well of course not I was born into a Catholic Family with Pious parents went to Catholic schools exposed to certain influences etc etc so you could say oh well you were kind of destined yeah I was in a way and I entered it freely and and it's those two things play off each other all throughout life as I'm sure you know uh the French existentialist philosopher Jean Paul start famously said that uh hell is other people right so why why sometimes we all feel that way I suppose our surgery in moments sympathetic to that position sometimes but why why fundamentally is he wrong yeah I mean it's it's a it's a desperately sad thing to say and and uh again I get it I'll give s credit for a certain amount of honesty in saying that because there are times you feel that way if I could just think of you know his autobiography is called Leo in French words he was a kid that obviously brilliant and and Loved Words and loved the world opened up by books and that's where I think he felt most at home and other people like no no I don't want that um no no we can't say that though because we're we're destined Aristotle was you know much a much finer and deeper reader of of human nature and of course the Bible too understand that you you can't isolate yourself in fact um If Heaven Looks Like Love right then love is other people I mean Heaven is other people right it's the opposite of hell uh and the deeper I come into contact with God the more I'm connected to everything that God loves right why do I love everybody well I love God and love and God seems to love those people so I'm going to love them too uh that's a deeply Catholic sensibility so let's turn back to the uh the article why Americans stopped hanging out uh the author Derek Thompson unsurprisingly traces much of the causes of antisocial Behavior to technology which you've already been touching on but this this stat also jumped up uh jumped out at me and I I like your um your impression of it so according to Thompson and the average time Americans spend with their pets oh their pets has roughly doubled in the past 20 years and this is a specific citation he says the average woman with a pet So speaking specifically about women spends more time actively engaged with her pets than with any other people on any given day so it may sound absurd to ask you this bishop but the data requires of me to to do it is regular contact with an animal an adequate substitute for contact with another human being I would say no and I say it as as a dog lover I had a dog as a kid I love dogs and love you know pets but right if we're the we're the um the The Logical animal the animal that speaks that's that's where we have our um that's that's where the contact is made I mean you can speak to a dog but it's rather limited uh no it's you know Thomas Moore's line you for man for all season to serve God wittily in the tangle of our minds and when you engage with somebody else there's a deep you know satisfaction that comes from that and the connection of the heart uh corod cor loquor you know Newman's famous motto but that's important isn't it the heart speaks to heart um so no you're not going to find satisfaction with a with a dog or with your computer screen you can only find it really in in friendly conversation with another uh that's not just like an information gathering exercise it it's a soul enhancing exercise when you sit down and really engage somebody in conversation and again that's a lost start I'm afraid I don't want me pick on the young people but um when you're raised on these stupid machines um you you lose that capacity yeah right even to pick up the social cues or or how to engage in a conversation how to start a conversation uh the sheer pleasure and joy of of following another as you're both seeking for the truth if if something's just kind of given to you on that screen and you just sort of are scrolling through it you're conversing now can these machines be a means to um cultivate conversation yeah they can they can um the trouble trouble there I think is they often turn mean you know uh what people are able to do in these com boxes is just share invective you know but the art of conversation I think for parents to teach their kids how to do that for teachers to to teach their students here here's how you converse with somebody you know here's how you make an argument even I've talked about that I think it's lost art we we know how to hurl invective at each other and hurl insults and onliners and ticktock little things but how do you actually make an argument and present your case for something um so I think that's a very important theme conversation conversation among friends the great tradition has recognized that as key to our flourishing there's also the the question question of non-verbal communication as well one thing that screens have done is has taken away our capacity to look at each other in the eye for a sustained period of time and that's that's a subtle business isn't it it's a subtle game and it is a game the way you learn how to play basketball or how to play chess or something it's a game with a lot of um kind of undefinable elements and uh more intuitive but you're right how do you pick up on on cues and and the psychology of someone how do you know like okay I've just heard his feelings and saying that and likely we're going to get derailed now because he's going to get defensive or that sort of delicious moment when you realize I'm not trying to impress someone we're actually looking for the truth together and we're actually making progress like we're we're climbing the mountain toward the truth together that happens in the best conversations as it does in the best games right when you're playing the game and you're not so preoccupied with my own ego accomplishment but just the joy of the game right those are the best moments in life in some ways and if we lose that in our conversational uh capacity that's a tragedy so here are some statistics I think are important to get on the on the table to emphasize some of the points you've been making uh so according to a recent National poll Americans on average spend 4 hours and 37 minutes per day yeah on their smartphone and that for Gen Z so that for those born after 1997 that goes up to this is average per day uh 6 hours and 5 minutes so there's one way we can look at technology and say well all technology is sort of morally neutral by by definition it can be used for good it can be used for ill but is there something unique about the smartphone that requires extra attention yeah it's addictive and you you can see it there can't you in those stats I think to here of Jee twangy the psychologist from San Diego who has said there's a tight correlation between screen time and depression the higher the screen time the deeper the depression and I think that's um right it strikes me as right even as I'll confess it I get drawn into these things too they're designed that way and you you end up what are you looking at right 98% of it is a waste of time but you're you're looking at it um no I think it's very dangerous and that's why parents especially ought to be I think hyper careful about how kids have access to these machines you know in a way with all these things though it's a bit like you're shaking your fist at the at the Blue Sky because um what are we going to do I mean they're there right like it or not and kids who were raised on them they're not going to heroically Sho them and go off into the desert and you know they won't so I don't know I don't have a good answer to that it's like any technology um I remember when I was in Rome years ago we had a conference on all this stuff you know and a Polish Bishop got up and said My grandmother used to say this is like back in 19 whatever 10 or something that the telephone was a very inelegant form of conversation and he said well of course it is and his grandmother knew that it wasn't like having a high Lev conversation but what are we going to do we're not going to say well let's get rid of telephones you know so I I do wrestle with that and look we're using it now you know I mean I I use it in my Ministry so I don't think it's all bad by any means it can and should be used and look at some of these maybe they're better these long form kind of podcast where people listen for hours to you know fairly high level conversation fair enough how's that different than Illinois Farmers standing out in the fields listening to Lincoln and Douglas debate you know in 1858 I don't know maybe it's not that much difference so it's got to be monitored uh we we can't just bury our heads in the sand we can't say make this go away um but I guess to you subordinated to these great moral ends so what would you say uh and we'll we'll move to a conclusion soon after this but what would you say to those who look at word on fire uh the the ministry the commit we have to to to to New Media and say well we're actually just feeding the Beast we're we're contributing to individuals addictions to their phones by providing so much content that's meant to be consumed on Smart devices yeah I mean I guess I would say in light of all that we pointed out yes it's a danger I I'll admit that but at the same time you know these things can be used for the good and I I think ours please God is that so you know it's a it's a both and I I don't think there's a super easy demarcation we can make um but yeah I'd like people to especially young people learn how to play like outside basketball and football and it's more than just getting your body involved it's all the social cues thing I I think of all the ways as a kid I learned about human nature by playing basketball with people and playing tennis and football with them um so I would encourage them use some screen time you know one thing we've done this is in the new program for Priestly formation we have the proped duic year so-called which is like a navient year so anyone approaching the priesthood and um one of the features of the proped duic year is fasting from social media so in some cases they actually take the phones away from students other ways they they limit them but here's I find interesting to a person I was just talking to the director the other day about this to a person the kids like it they say that's what was most important about the propic year that we were fasting from social media so you know a fast might be in service of a more um careful balanced usage so I fast for a time that I might learn okay there's a balance way to do this that's what i' want I think so um your uh role of course as Bishop of the dicese of Winona Rochester I'm sure you hear from um from those in your dases look Bishop we are trying to create more events to get people together in person but we're having such difficulty getting them to show up yeah what kind of advice do you offer to get us together more yeah and we do wrestle with that you know because the culture's changed uh years ago people would come to the parish or come to church readily they don't as much and young people are drawn inward by their machines I don't know I think I always say truth beauty in the Catholic tradition uh the beauty of our faith the beauty of our churches um beauty of of music and concerts and things that would draw people um the beauty of our of our great Cathedrals so I I think that would would draw people out of their isolation also you know the service of the poor uh young people seem to respond well to that give them opportunities to serve the poor um but I I know I get it I get the the struggle [Music] there well it's now time for our listener question Bishop we have a question from Owen who's 10 years old he's from Massachusetts and he's asking a question about God uh us having free will God knowing that we Free Will and what's the relationship between our Free Will and God's knowledge of it hello Bishop Bon my name is Owen from Massachusetts and I'm 10 years old my question today is I know we have free will but does God know what choices we will make that's a good question and that's a good voice isn't it he should be a he should be a preacher Owen um Charming voice you know it's a it's a classic question here's a quick way to respond to it what I'm knowing right now is not limiting anyone's Freedom so I'm taking reality in right in front I my knowledge of what you're saying is not limiting your freedom well that's the way God knows everything God knows everything not So Much from the past looking to the future but God knows everything in one great glance so aquaintance talks about the um the Eternal now so that's that's the world that God lives in and so he can know everything without thereby determining everything that he knows well thank you very much Owen for reaching out to us if you would like to ask Bishop Baron a question for a future word onire show please visit ask Bishop baron.com that's askb bishop baron.com and we would really love to hear from you well Bishop that's all the time we have for today thank you very much for our conversation you're welcome look forward to seeing you again soon a joy to be with you thanks mat that does it for us today thanks for joining the word on fire show if you're interested in learning more about how word on fire can help you grow closer to Christ become a better evangelist with and for others and work for the common good consider joining the word on fire Institute check us out at institute. wordonfire.org that's institute. wordonfire .org we'll see you next [Music] time

Channel: Bishop Robert Barron

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Id: tzh88wb0B1c

Length: 30min 13sec (1813 seconds)

Published: Mon Apr 15 2024