geoff: The resignation of former Harvard president Claudine gay has hardly settled any of the debate surrounding her short tenure, or how the university handled a number of issues. In fact, many, including gay herself, are raising concerns about the potential impact the Harvard case may have on higher education more widely. William brangham has our conversation. William: Gay's departure came after conservative activists unearthed multiple examples of alleged plagiarism in her work. While gay did admit to several mistakes, she argues she's been unfairly targeted because of her race, her ideology, and her push for diversity in academia. Her resignation also followed her widely panned congressional testimony about anti-semitism on university campuses. For two perspectives, we turn to Khalil gibran Muhammad. He's a professor of history, race, and public policy at Harvard's Kennedy school. And to Tom Nichols, who's a staff writer for the atlantic, a professor emeritus at the U.S. Naval war college. Gentlemen, thank you both so much for being here. The conventional wisdom is that Claudine gay resigned because of this rolling series of plagiarism revelations. Those were brought to light by conservative activists and fanned into flames by those same people. But the evidence is there. I know you believe there is much more afoot here. I wonder if you could explain that a little bit. Khalil: Sure. They have been involved in a concerted movement beginning in the fall of 2020 to censor knowledge in this country. To prohibit the teaching of race and racism, of gender discrimination in the k-12 arena. In Florida and Texas as of just this past fall, they began to extend that reach into the public universities and colleges of that state. So I see what they are telling us is happening is that they are attacking everything that has to do with racial equity and gender equity in this country. And the person who convened a December 5 hearing opened her remarks by naming the problem as antiracism, intersectionality, and critical race theory that is causing racism on Harvard's campus. She happened to mention my class I taught last fall as a prime example. Finally, she promised, as of two days ago after the resignation, to continue to go after Harvard and presumably other universities that are harboring "Woke" faculty and partisan administrators. They are telling us that is the primary focus right now for private colleges and universities, as has been the case for public ones. William: Tom Nichols, what do you make of this? Do you believe that because these revelations came from people who are admittedly Claudine gay's ideological enemies, that that obviates any evidence about her plagiarism? Tom: We are having a strange conversation here. Because I agree with the professor. I think the American right and the activists on the American right are intentionally attacking American higher education as an institution, for various reasons, some of them ideological and some of them out of pure resentment, that they simply want to displace the current elites who run universities and be the new elites who run American universities. But none of that has anything to do with whether or not what professor gay did as misconduct. As I wrote, there's a term for misconduct that is discovered by bad-faith actors and bad people. It is called misconduct. And that is not relevant. I agree completely she was targeted because of her race, because of her gender, because of her position at an exalted university, because of things she said during the congressional hearing. But in the end, as strange as it sounds to say this, the source of that charge does not matter. All that matters is whether or not the charge is true and whether she committed academic misconduct. That just makes it impossible for her to lead America's -- one of America's greatest universities. I should add I have nothing but affection for Harvard. I taught there for 18 years. So I find this heartbreaking. But on the other hand, trying to conflate all of these attacks together I think does no good because in effect what these right-wing activists are doing are trying to bait people in the academy into defending double standards, into appearing like hypocrites. I think no one should take that bait. The only question should be whether or not this was actual misconduct. William: What do you make of that? Khalil: It is a compelling argument but to me, it misses a bigger truth. There are two things here I think matter. One, the nature of the plagiarism, let's call it on a three point scale, was a one. Mr. Nichols may not agree with me, but that is fine. It is debatable the degree to which the allegations of plagiarism rise to be the most severe kind. I call this a situation of death by 1000 paper cups. What is interesting to me, and this is my second point, is if it is death by 1000 paper cuts, Harvard should still retain the right to judge for itself whether or not the instances of poor citation, or generous use of language by others, rises to the point of expulsion, or in this case, to be fired from Harvard university. I think those two reasons are very strong reasons for why this issue is actually more about political pressure. And I don't believe that any university at this time should allow governors or congressional representatives, or any federal official, to determine how it uses discretion and ultimately makes decisions about its own faculty. William: Tom, I want to ask you about this issue of race very directly. In her resignation letter and her op-ed she published today, gay noted she had been subjected to a torrent of racist abuse, been called the n-word, received death threats. Additionally she talked about something broader. Quote, it is not lost on me that I make an ideal canvas for projecting every anxiety about the generational and demographic changes unfolding on American campuses. A black woman selected to lead a storied institution. Someone who views diversity as a source of institutional strength and dynamism. How much of a factor do you believe, given you have -- given everything you have already said, how much do you think race played in all of this? Tom: I suspect that the right have been looking for a reason to attack Claudine gay for the moment she has become president of Harvard. But I think professor Mohammed just made a better defense of her then she makes herself in that letter, because I think that letter plays right into the idea that you cannot look at my academic work, everything is about race, this is because of racist attacks. There is no doubt that the people attacked her and I have been harassing her are coming from a place of racism and racial animus. But that does not obviate the bigger problem. And I take your point -- and this was my an action -- my reaction initially. I said, I wrote a dissertation, I probably have some bad footnotes and with the paraphrases like all of us who have done academic work. We are not perfect and we will all have mistakes in our written work. But I think when then the second and third round of these came out -- and I suspect her red explained a bit of rope a dope where they dripped this out trying to draw the foul, to get people to keep defending this -- I don't think those errors then lead to the inclusion that, well, this now has to all be about race. . I think in a university setting, the only question is, are the errors real errors? I take your point, and actually your point about Harvard simply caving here, that is a reasonable point. But on the other hand when you have this much stuff that piles up, university presidents are different. This is not the closed the liberation of a department. This is someone leading the university and being the public face. And to come out and fire back and say it is all about racism, I think just plays into exactly the kind of dialogue -- not even dialogue, it plays into the kind of trap a lot of her opponents wanted to set, and I think that is important. There is a lot of truth in it, but that is obviously not the whole story. William: All right. Khalil gibran Muhammad and Tom Nichols, appreciate it so much. Thank you for being here. Khalil: Thank you for having us. ♪♪
