THEY'RE DOING IT TO KEEP THEIR JOBS. WE'VE BEEN TOLD THAT. YOU CAN ALSO SEE IT, PLAIN AS DAY. >> WELL, WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT. >>> NEW POLLING FROM ABC NEWS AND IPSOS IS GIVING US OUR FIRST SNAPSHOT HAS HOW INDEPENDENT VOTERS FEEL ABOUT LAST WEEK'S VERDICT. ALTHOUGH 45% SAY THE VERDICT WAS POLITICALLY MOTIVATED, MORE THAN HALF OF ALL INDEPENDENTS, 52%, BELIEVE THE JURY REACHED THE RIGHT CONCLUSION AND THINK IT SHOULD END DONALD TRUMP'S 2024 CAMPAIGN. THOSE NUMBERS ARE EVEN HIGHER AMONG VOTERS WITH UNFAVORABLE OPINIONS OF BOTH TRUMP AND PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN. THE SO-CALLED DOUBLE HATERS. AMONG THAT GROUP, 65% SAY THE VERDICT WAS CORRECT, AND 67% SAY IT SHOULD END TRUMP'S BID FOR THE WHITE HOUSE. >> KEEP THIS UP FOR A SECOND. >> AGREE WITH DONALD TRUMP THEN, HOW WE CAME IN ON THE SHOW HERE. >> SAM STEIN, WE'RE LOOKING AT THE DOUBLE HATERS. EVERYBODY ARE TALKING ABOUT THE DOUBLE HATERS. PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE BIDEN, DON'T LIKE TRUMP. ACTUALLY, IF YOU DIG INTO THAT, THEY ARE, OF COURSE, POLLSTERS SAY, THEY'RE THE MOST IMPORTANT GROUP. IF YOU DIG INTO IT, YOU KNOW, YOU ACTUALLY GET A LOT OF HATED -- A LOT OF ANIMOSITY TOWARD DONALD TRUMP. WITH JOE BIDEN, IT'S LIKE, EH, HE'S TOO OLD. HE'S A GOOD GUY, TOO OLD, DON'T WANT HIM IN THERE. DOUBLE HATERS ACTUALLY IS A BIT OF A MISNOMER. BUT THEY ALWAYS SEEM TO BREAK OVERWHELMINGLY BIDEN'S WAY. HERE WE SEE IT AGAIN. 67% OF THIS UNDECIDED GROUP THAT'S GOING TO DETERMINE THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION THINK THAT THE CONVICTIONS SHOULD END DONALD TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN. WHAT SAY YOU, MR. STEIN? >> WELL, I THINK IT'S AN ALARMING NUMBER IF YOU'RE DONALD TRUMP, OBVIOUSLY. YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO BLEED THAT TYPE OF SUPPORT ANYWHERE, BUT THAT BLOCK, IN PARTICULAR, YOU NEED TO BREAK TO YOU SPECIFICALLY, RIGHT? HE'S GOING TO WIN HIS VOTERS. WE KNOW THAT. WHAT HE REALLY NEEDS IN THIS ELECTION IS THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE FENCE, MAYBE A LITTLE WARY OF JOE BIDEN, BREAKING ALL THE WAY HIS WAY. THAT SAID, I'M GOING TO HOLD MY JUDGMENTS FOR POLLS THAT ARE NOT SNAPSHOT POLLS. THAT'S RIGHT AFTER THE VERDICT. PEOPLE MAY BE REACTING TO THE NEWS. WE'RE ALSO FIVE MONTHS OUT, AS JONATHAN POINTED OUT RIGHTFULLY AT THE TOP OF THIS, WE HAVE A LENGTHY HISTORY OF PEOPLE CIRCLING BACK TO TRUMP AFTER EGREGIOUS, SEEMINGLY CRIPPLING MOMENTS. JANUARY 6th TOP AMONG THEM. LET'S WAIT AND SEE AND BE SOBER ABOUT THE POLL NUMBERS. I WILL SAY, LOOK, IT OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T BENEFIT DONALD TRUMP TO HAVE 34 GUILTY COUNTS AGAINST HIM. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT ANY CANDIDATE WOULD WANT. I THINK HE IS TRYING TO TURN IT INTO SOME SORT OF POLITICAL FAVOR. I DON'T THINK IT IS IGNORANCE THAT OTHER REPUBLICANS ARE COMPARING IT TO THE SHOW TRIALS OF THE STALIN ERA. THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY'RE DOING. THEY'RE NOT IGNORANT OF IT. THEY'RE TRYING TO DISCREDIT THE JUSTICE SYSTEM BECAUSE THAT'S THE CARD THEY HAVE TO PLAY HERE. THE QUESTION, JOE, YOU RAISED IS, WILL THE PUBLIC, OR AT LEAST WILL A GOOD PORTION OF THE PUBLIC LOOK AT THAT AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, I'M ALL FOR IT? OR, YOU KNOW WHAT? OUR FOUNDATIONAL SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT AND THE RULE OF LAW IS TOO IMPORTANT. IT WAS TELLING TO ME, WHEN JOE BIDEN OFFERED HIS FIRST REMARKS ON THE TRIAL LAST WEEK, HE DID NOT GO AFTER THE SUBSTANCE OF THE VERDICT. NO ONE EXPECTED HIM TO DO THAT. WHAT HE DID IS HE GOT REALLY HEATED ABOUT THE EFFORT TO GET REPUBLICANS TO UNDERMINE THE FAITH IN THE RULE OF LAW. THAT'S WHERE HE WANTS TO POINT HIS ANGER, AND THAT'S THE CASE HE WANTS TO MAKE HEADING INTO THE ELECTION. >> POLITICS OF THIS ARE GOING TO BE FASCINATING. YES, POLLING SHOWS THERE IS A PERCENTAGE OF REPUBLICANS WHO WON'T VOTE FOR TRUMP, OR SAY THE CONVICTED FELON, BUT NOW THERE ARE TALKING POINTS, CREATING AN ECOCHAMBER ABOUT HOW UNFAIR THE VERDICT WAS. NOW, LET'S SEE WHAT THE DEMOCRATS DO. THE PRESIDENT, IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE, HIS REMARKS SAYING WE NEED TO RESPECT THE PROCESS. NOW, WHAT DO FELLOW DEMOCRATS DO, THE CAMPAIGN, THE PRESIDENT DO IN TERMS OF DRIVING HOME THIS CONVICTION, AS AN EXAMPLE WHY DONALD TRUMP IS NOT FIT FOR OFFICE? NOW, LET'S TURN TO THE LEGAL PART OF THIS AND BRING IN FORMER LITIGATOR AND MSNBC LEGAL CORRESPONDENT LISA RUBIN. I HOPE YOU'VE HAD A CHANCE TO CATCH YOUR BREATH AFTER A FRENZIED STRETCH. WE ARE A COUPLE DAYS OUT FROM THE VERDICT NOW. ANY ADDITIONAL REACTIONS NOW THAT YOU'VE HAD TIME TO SIT WITH THIS AS TO HOW IT WENT DOWN? AND GIVE US YOUR LATEST THOUGHTS AS TO WHAT THE PROSECUTION MAY SEEK IN TERMS OF PENALTY. >> LET'S START THERE. I THINK THE PROSECUTION, NOTWITHSTANDING DONALD TRUMP'S EFFORTS TO SAY THE PEOPLE WON'T STAND FOR HIS SERVING ANY JAIL TIME, I WOULD BE VERY SURPRISED IF THE MANHATTAN D.A.'S OFFICE DOESN'T SEEK SOME FORM OF JAIL TIME HERE. THE REASON IS FOR TWO REASONS, JOHN. ONE IS THE SEVERITY OF THE CONDUCT. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 34 COUNTS, EACH OF WHICH COULD BE PUN NICHE PUNISHED BY FOUR YEARS. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO SEEK FOUR YEARS FOR EACH COUNT. THEY'LL HAVE A CONCURRENT SENTENCE WHERE IT IS GROUPED TOGETHER. IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE GIVEN THE MULTIPLICITY OF COUNTS HERE, THEY WON'T SEEK JAIL TIME. THE OTHER FACTOR IS THE LACK OF REMORSE BY THE DEFENDANT. NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE A DEFENDANT ALREADY FOUND IN CRIMINAL CONTEMPT TEN TIMES, BUT HE CONTINUES TO SAY THINGS ABOUT THE VERDICT, ABOUT THE PROCESS, ABOUT PARTICIPANTS IN THE PROCESS WHO ARE COVERED BY THE GAG ORDER. THEORETICAL VIOLATIONS OF THE GAG ORDER THAT HAVEN'T BEEN BROUGHT TO JUSTICE MERCHAN'S ATTENTION. THAT COULD BE A PART OF SENTENCING. WHEN HE SAYS IT IS A CABAL BECAUSE THEY HAD SOMEONE SERVING IN THE BIDEN DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, THAT IS NO REMORSE. A PERSON WHO SAYS THE PROCESS IS RIGGED, THE JUDGE IS CORRUPT, THAT THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY DIDN'T WANT TO BRING THE CASE BUT DID UNDER POLITICAL PRESSURE, THAT IS A PERSON WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE HE DID ANYTHING WRONG, AS HE CONTINUES TO PLAY. I EXPECT THAT TO BE A MAJOR FACTOR IN THE SENTENCING. >> LISA, OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE NO PRECEDENT FOR A FORMER SITTING PRESIDENT TO BE CONVICTED OF A FELONY ON 34 COUNTS. AT THE SAME TIME, IF YOU'RE THE JUDGE, JUDGE MERCHAN MUST BE THINKING, OKAY, YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO LOOK AT PRECEDENT IN TERMS OF SENTENCING, WHAT IS FAIR? SO ARE THERE HIGH-PROFILE CASES YOU THINK HE MAY BE LOOKING AT? ARE THERE, YOU KNOW, OTHER EXAMPLES THAT WE CAN LOOK TO TO SAY, WELL, THIS MIGHT BE BE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE? I MEAN, WHAT WOULD BE FAIR? THERE'S NO PRECEDENT. WE'RE JUST KIND OF RUNNING BLIND HERE. >> JUDGE MERCHAN IS A PERSON WHO HISTORICALLY HAS NOT BEEN PARTICULARLY LENIENT WITH WHITE-COLLAR OFFENDERS. IT IS ALSO NOT THE CASE, DESPITE WHAT TRUMP IS HIS ALLIES CONTINUE TO SAY, THAT FALSIFICATION OF BUSINESS RECORDS AS A FELONY IS NOT A TRADITIONALLY PROSECUTED CRIME IN MANHATTAN. IN FACT, IT GETS PROSECUTED ALL THE TIME. WHAT MIGHT BE NOVEL HERE IS THE COMBINATION OF FALSIFICATION OF BUSINESS RECORDS AND AN ELECTION LAW CONSPIRACY UNDER STATE LAW. IT IS NEW YORK ELECTION LAW 17152. THAT'S THE CRIME THAT TRUMP SAYS, NOBODY HAD ANY IDEA WHAT I WAS BEING ACCUSED OF. THAT'S NOT TRUE AT ALL. BUT, AGAIN, IF YOU'RE LOOKING HISTORICALLY AT HAVE PEOPLE COMMITTED FALSIFICATION OF BUSINESS RECORDS THAT GET BUMPED UP TO A FELONY BECAUSE THERE IS AN UNDERLYING CRIME THAT THEY EITHER INTENDED TO COMMIT OR
