Halal & Tayyib: Rethinking the Ethical | Dr. Ingrid Mattson

sit down mighty comb I didn't want to start this talk tearing up you mom's age but second Lochhead is such an honor to know you to know you for many years and to be here at Zaytuna may Allah bless this this wonderful place of worship and education and learning and fellowship thank you so much Imam Dowd for inviting me to be part of this inaugural conference really it is very much an honor and I was so excited that I have about two and a half hours of a talk here but I've been told it's 45 minutes so so I'll save some for tomorrow I'll just try to keep it well we'll start into the topic and continue tomorrow and Sheldon algebra a marathoner gene bismillahi rahmani raheem alhamdulillahi rabbil alameen asada - what's a now - a dinner Muhammad why not and he was having a Jemaine which of the favours of your Lord will you deny Allah has a beautiful recitation I'm going to begin by by talking a little bit about ethics and what we think about as what ethics is and and I think what's very important for us to understand is that ethics is not about taking one principle and taking it to its logical extreme disregarding all other principles and goods in fact that is the very definition of extremism is taking one principle and neglecting all other relevant factors and taking it to its logical extreme when we think about type one translation might be pure one might be good very often play is translated as wholesome and I love that translation because it has that idea of holistic in it and if we're thinking about being ethical we're trying to be holistic we're trying to take into consideration as many factors as we as we can ethics is an iterative process of research consultation inclusion capacity building and reprioritizing so it's iterative meaning we keep going back to these processes over these processes to continue to learn and grow and include more relevant information and to include more and more people in the conversation ethics is is everywhere in the part and it is an immediate monofin Ayana and one code it is promoting benefits and removing harms it is reviewing and improving policies and practices with akka with Rama and with added with our mind with our heart our compassion and with justice it is ensuring that collective obligations are many collective obligations are met by our community so when I was asked to speak about this topic and I know that there are many here who are who are well informed about the situation of the meat industry and the necessity for clayey and the ecological imperative that we face today and so a number of the things I'm going to mention are going to be familiar to you but I'm trying to to look back and go over some of these issues in through a process that I think is is is part of what we need to regularly do in order to continue to improve and so at the very beginning before we when we start into examining the ethics of any particular issue we need first and foremost to get the facts right and we need to go to those who have knowledge and expertise now this is a topic that I've been interested in for many years and and I've even worked in a meat factory but that was 35 years ago when I was a university student and things have certainly changed but that experience and many others have have kept this this issue this issue of of lawful wholesome ethical eating alive in my in my mind and in my life for decades but to to begin today I thought although I have an interest and I research in some of these areas I would like to go to someone who I you know who's really not only up to date who's not only an experts but someone who is embedded in this issue and thinking about which areas have have done the most in trying to bring an ethical process and are continuing to try to grow in in the way that in providing meat that is realistically most Muslims are getting their meat from a the results of an industrial process and one of the one of the places in the world that that's really known for not only having very clean pastures but also is constantly improving in its industrial processes New Zealand in particular a lot of our our lamb comes from there and as it so happens there's a brother in New Zealand dr. mustafa photo who is a scientist a meat scientist he has a he has a PhD in this area he's been working in this area for decades and he also has recently in the last year or so been elected as president of the Islamic Federation the effect Samak Federal Federation of Islamic No Fee ends not a Catholic that's who's sponsoring this conference fee ends the Federation of Islamic associations of New Zealand which is the umbrella body for Islamic organizations in New Zealand and interestingly they are the primary halal certifier of meat in New Zealand and and meat production is the a major perhaps the major industry of New Zealand what's great about this reality is that it means that a nonprofit organization that represents all of the Muslims in New Zealand is responsible for the certification and so there they have the potential if they have an open dialogue and discourse and a will to improve to constantly make this certification process better and and certainly to have higher and higher levels of playing included in this and the money that fans gets from certification is then distributed to for programming for Muslims across New Zealand can't youth camps in the summer to support programs to support refugees so it's it's really a beautiful process and I think because it's a small country it's possible but I decided given this this fact I thought that the first thing I would do would be to call up dr. Mustapha who's also happens to be married to a friend of mine and I had an extensive for a few hours for three or four hours I interviewed him asking him about various aspects of his own growth and development and also the ethical issues that he sees as critical to this process so here's brother Mustafa he is Nigerian and he moved to the United States for graduate studies to pursue an MA and then a PhD from Michigan State University in meat processing and food science he told me that when he arrived in the United States from Nigeria he accepted the view that many Muslims told him that America was a kitabi country and so he could eat the meat that was generally available in the market but when he began researching in the American meat industry he realized that many of those who slaughtered the animals did not even believe in God and of course the slaughtering process was not humane and so he stopped eating that meat when he finished his ph.d he then went to New Zealand to help develop further develop the Halal industry and he says that his original idea was to process the animals how Muslims did it at home in Nigeria and his ideal was to do it the exact same way the Prophet did in his words Allah who Iowa said them this is what he thought following the Sunnah meant but what he saw in New Zealand was an industry very much concerned and increasingly concerned with animal welfare and eager to embrace any innovation that removed a necessary hardship to animals and I can tell you that that is a very different reality than what I experienced many decades ago at a meat factory in Canada which was horrifying brother Mustafa also when he thought about what was done back home meaning in Nigeria his homeland recalled that while farmers and those who raised livestock treated their animals well they loved them they gave them names they were very tender to them that it was a different story after they were brought to the market and then to the butcher to remembered how the large animals were treated so roughly thrown down or wrestled to the ground for slaughter every day and even at aid he would see animals treated roughly and slaughtered in front of each other at the market or at the butchers and unfortunately this is the reality and many Wilson majority countries in the factory in New Zealand while things certainly weren't perfect he witnessed that there was greater care and respect shown to the animal so he thought about this if people are going to eat meat if Muslims are going to eat meat he considered that certainly the ideal was for an animal to be slaughtered on a healthy farm where it's raised you know so it isn't transported its slaughtered where it's raised in a healthy way but second best is for the animal to be slaughtered in a scrupulously supervised industrial setting that must meet high legal standards for compassionate treatment of animals as is the case in New Zealand as long as they are not required to be transported very far the least desirable situation is for an animal to be slaughtered by an amateur as sometimes happens I made or for an animal to be transported to an auction or market or a butcher who are not supervised door held accountable by the law for the way they treat the animals however while he considered the New Zealand setting industrial setting to be improvement there were still many problems and in particular the long transportation that the animals had to injure to the factory and the fact that along the way there could be unnecessary suffering inflicted on animals now another aspect of the whole process of we're going to look at this holistically is the impact of animal processing meat processing on the workers and I asked dr. Mustapha about this and he said this is a major concern of his first of all most of the facilities are remote so when the processing facilities are closer to the pasture that means that they are further away from the cities and so the Muslims who work at these in these factories or in these industrial settings feel isolated from communities that can give them supporters or services that could offer them support that they need workers feel isolated and when it comes to halal slaughter the pious Muslims in particular feel a great responsibility they worry that if everything is not done correct correctly that they will commit a sin or violate the trust of other Muslims who want to eat halal food they feel that they're fulfilling the phutka via the collective responsibility to ensure that the meat is Halong and they really feel a burden a deep burden of that responsibility third it is one thing to slaughter an animal one has raised or occasionally once a year I need as it is something quite different to witness or be involved in the slaughter of hundreds or thousands of a day the emotional and psychological impact of the workers can be very heavy who is supporting these workers and this is a responsibility he now feels as elected head of the Federation of Islamic associations of New Zealand dr. mustafa feels frustrated by muslim consumers he says the animals sacrificed their lives the workers sacrifice bearing the responsibility to ensure that the process is halau and endure the difficulty of so many animals being sacrificed but as for the muslim consumer where is their sacrifice too many do not know and do not even care who is certifying their meat as halau all they want is cheap meat they complain about cost and choose what is cheapest dr. mustafa says every consumer has the responsibility to use their power to change the processes and I emphasize his use of the word power and I'll get back to that in a little while when i asked dr. mustafa how this work has affected him what about his relationship to animals he says that he has always loved animals and this love has in fact increased by working with them in this industry he is now more mindful of their emotions and feel spiritually close to them this is both because of research scientific research into the emotions of animals and his experiences with them on a daily base now he said he cannot even eat his breakfast at the kitchen table if the bird feeder outside is empty and the birds can see him eating so he has to go fill up the feeders before he can return to his breakfast he says I would never again cage a bird I have no problem eating meat he said because the prophet sallallaahu I knew was sending them ate meat and he is the best example for me we even know what parts of the animal he loved to eat but he is deeply concerned that the way animals are handled must be improved everything we do with animals he said will be seen on yelman qiyamah when asked him what he thought about how much meat we should eat he said meat is too cheap so it's not profitable for farmers they need to be paid more so they can produce less to make a living and this in turn will lessen the environmental impact of meat production because meat has are at the wrong slide let's see because meat has a major impact on the environment so it should be eaten occasionally not daily so much meat is wasted because Western consumers in particular only want the prime cuts the lean cuts much of the animal is wasted we need to eat the whole animal he said the organs the tongue the brains all of these in fact are richer sources of iron and b12 essential fatty acids and amino acids then the lean meat producers need producers are are offering to consumers because of consumer demand there needs to be education about the waste and about the importance and possibility and health of eating these all of the parts of the animal to throw out so much of the animal some in some places thirty percent of the animal is is really disrespecting the animals life it is a waste of the resources consumed by the animal it is a waste of resources used to transport the animal and to process it and so he emphasizes that a flexitarian diet is the best diet eat meat occasionally eat all of the animal really enjoy it and work to make sufficient meat products available to the large part of humanity who do not have sufficient access and this is where justice is brought in so what ethical sources and principles are engaged in dr. Mustafa's analysis and recommendations first we need to suppress pride and ego to be open to correction to admit past mistakes and seek what is best Muslims over the past few decades have learned more and more about what is good and better in this area so we need to be open to that correction we can admit our past mistakes and we shouldn't shame others who don't have this information yet we made mistakes in the past and and others still don't have access to all the information we have so treat our brothers and sisters who need to be need more information with compassion second trust in trust in and love the Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu and it was said them and his way of life if you were doing something following believing that you're following the his son has bless its and really you know be aware of that blessing third constantly research and improve methods seeking if San in animal slaughter that is our ideal we're not reaching perfection but we should continue to try embrace science and technology where it is beneficial without losing our Islamic world view and here I'm sure we'll have lots of discussion over the weekend about what kind of technologies are beneficial or not or if it's enough for us traditional Muslims Muslims you know pre-modern muslims developed beneficial agricultural science and technology and were faithful to their islamic world view they supported sustainable and productive farming by bringing these two things together we cannot afford a an incorrect romanticized view that the best farming are the best raising of livestock does not use beneficial technologies and here i just nope run one there we go grafting the tree and we we all are aware of the the report about the prophet muhammed sallalahu and it was said them when he was in medina and saw the cultivators grafting the trees so very often there is a visceral kind of reaction when we see something new but on the balance we need to to honestly and rationally and scientifically see what is beneficial and what is not and understand how we bring our religious values to bear what has been called the muslim agricultural revolution which happened by the by the second century hitch of ii or the ninth century of the Common Era really all across the Mediterranean where where the Muslim jurisdiction had now extended was the result of the enthusiastic embrace of any and all beneficial techniques and pest control soil rehabilitation the extension intensive and intensification of irrigation scrupulously careful ecological techniques hard work patience experimentation and ingenuity as well as the enforcement of just an effective trade finance currency economic laws and policies in accordance with Islamic laws and principles as well as policies pertaining to land so the vast majority of farmers were successful because they had the right to use the land in a beneficial way land was not commodified in the same way that happened in the 19th century to the great detriment of Agriculture of laborers of the relationship with animals and that's something maybe we could talk about tomorrow more when we talk about sustainability so having having laws and regulations and governance that supports the fair and just treatment of animals the fair and just treatments of farmers and laborers that is very thoughtful in being attentive to the climate and changes in the climate and prepares a society for disaster is certainly an Islamic principle and we have this from of course surah yousuf say deny Youssef may Allah be pleased with him perform that role for the Egyptians preventing [Music] widespread hunger when a drought or pestilence occurred another principle that of course is very important is that we treat and recognize animals as honored creations of Allah worthy not only of our compassion but even our love and also that we treat the workers in animal processing not as instruments that employers and consumers use for their own ends of profit and consumption but as human beings ennobled by God people whose emotional social and spiritual States need to be considered by employers and by the consumers who benefit from their work we emphasize that Muslim consumers are morally accountable for whether they neglect or use their influence their power to improve the treatment of the animals they consume we need to pay attention of how much meat is wasted and this is unnecessary and unethical and when it comes to food it is not only meat that is wasted dr. Tamara Selma who is a professor in Vancouver and an expert in environmental studies and planning developed a special organization called food systems lab in which she looks at food wastage and the amount of food that is wasted is tremendous in our society so all of this effort goes into so if we put aside meat for the for for right now and look at plants and other you know fruit vegetables grains in many cases Western consumers American consumers waste up to 30 percent or more after buying it and bringing it home and this is you know the the amount of energy that has gone into producing that the amount of pollution that has generated bringing that food to a person's home and what that does for those who have little food is really a disaster and this is that the easiest thing that we can do it is what's really important to recognize is that it's not enough just to put the food in the composter because composting material food material creates methane which is a greenhouse gas 20 times more dangerous than carbon dioxide so even when we throw it into the compost or we are contributing to these huge levels of methane and this is a major factor in climate change climate change that is a disaster for many people across the world those who both raise livestock and cultivate plants and grains and other things because their sources of water are just drying up the paren of course less panwa China in the paren of course emphatically prohibits waste in particular in the context of food production and consumption plus Panetta says o you who believe do not make unlawful the wholesome things play abet which God has made lawful for you but commit no excess for Allah does not love those who are given to excess yeah Benny are there more children of Adam where your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer and eat and drink but do not waste will that till City fool Allah does not love the wasteful eat of the wholesome things we've provided for your sustenance but commit no excess therein unless my condemnation fall upon you and this is just a sample of the prohibitions verses prohibiting waste when it comes to food production waste is not wrong is is wrong not only because we are ungrateful in doing so but because of food production generates methane and carbon more animals and more people are going hungry or dying because climate events are killing their livestock and plants and climate events make cultivation more expensive so more and more people in our own communities cannot afford wholesome food it's not that they're ignorant is that they can't afford it and we know that the blessed prophet sallallaahu was centum said none of you is a believer who goes to bed with a full stomach will his neighbor is hungry just for your own neighborhood you can see from this graph from feeding America that there are over 200,000 people in this County who are food insecure in the world of course vast numbers of people 820 million people who are food insecure and this number has been rising over the past number of years primarily due to climate change and the impacts are tremendous there are two different ways that inadequate food access or lacking access to wholesome foods can lead to different forms of malnutrition of course we would expect child stunting and wasting or people to shrink but also they can also become overweight and obese so this is the second pathway so ironically obesity is the result also of malnutrition of not being nourished by wholesome food resilience to prepare for these climate disasters is something that is being emphasized more and more because the reality is that climate change is here and this is impacting people all the time and many of those peoples are Muslims not that we should prefer them over others but certainly if we are going to feel that we're part of one community with Muslims across the world this is this is a very serious issue from a spiritual and ethical perspective I think about Satan almond banana thawed may Allah be pleased with him during the year of ashes Ahmad Ramallah the year eighteen HIV when there was a terrible drought in the Arabian Peninsula and the waterholes dried up and so of course the that the Bedouins depended on began to die and climate refugees flooded into Medina said mohammed as the Haditha swore an oath that he would not eat butter milk or meat until the Dro ended and the plants had sprouted said no Alberta saw supplies from his governors in Egypt and Syria and elsewhere to be able to feed the refugees in Medina and he said if it had not arrived does that help had not arrived he would not have left any home of the prominent Muslims in which there was one container of grain without lodging a hungry refugee with them because he said to will not die from the amount of food that can support one and he said that the Muslims will not be destroyed if there is equality among their stomachs do we feel that do we have that that feeling do we have that concern do we have that awareness can we feel that pain I think I'm and I'm getting near the time to end so just a few more points the production of too much carbon and methane to bring us food from across the world it's not only the result of injustice in our political social economic systems it is also if we're honest to some extent the result of our ingratitude we do not really appreciate what we have how much food do we have how much diversity how much access to so many different kinds of food do we have yet we get tired of eating the same thing seeking more and more variety never being satisfied with the goods that we have I fear that we've become like bono asourian in the desert when allah subhanho wa taala first liberated them from slavery and then sent down manna and quails and all of this delicious food to eat and then Allah subhana WA Ta'ala Allah opened up many springs of water for them to drink from and still they said and this is the benicar island in the desert in US of course we are sometimes in that state may may Allah make us aware of that and free us from that state and forgive us for such words as I'm bored of this food what did they said they said ya Musa we can't bear just one kind of food pray to thy Lord that he would give us other things that grow from the earth herbs and cucumber and garlic and lentils and onions Satan or Musa was so exasperated by this point to be to feel tired that it's not enough so to end I would like to supplement dr. Mustafa's analysis and invoke the concept of hispanic lect in our lives i think is the reason that we do not always see our values and princes Bulls operating in our systems are Muslim systems and institutions as one scholar said those who have power are more able than others and so come under obligations which others do not bear for the measure of obligation is ability and every person is responsible to the extent of his or her ability picked up along us the thought fear Allah as much as you're able in pre-modern Islam the enforcement of right and wrong the prevention of harm and the promotion of benefits and the public interest was not located only or even primarily in the courts rather administrative measures were taken in accordance with the law this is what CSS Sharia is the markets were regulated through his BA and this included inspecting working animals to make sure they were not abused and protecting wild and free urban animals such as cats and dogs to ensure that they had access to the food and water they needed and were not harassed ethical principles and practice were also enforced by guilds local customs promoted the public interest harmony and fairness all of these were principles that were part of an idea to hekima we cannot limit ourselves to virtue ethics when we have power we need to use power to prevent harm and promote benefits what is striking and I place myself in this category is how much time we as a Muslim community bemoan and justices we have little little if any power to correct and we divide ourselves into factions having bitter feuds over these issues yet when it comes to livestock meat processing agricultural regulations and processes and even managing the food in our in our own communities and households or offering a meal in our Muslim institutions that we tend to neglect really looking holistically at these issues all food involves all major issues of justice and injustice harms and benefits to humans in our neighborhood and all over the world animals in the environment we have the ability to make an impact yet our involvement is multi limited to personal virtue and this is why it is tremendous and just a such a such a wonderful really hopeful development that this Center for ethical living it has been established here that's a tuna we need to focus on this and we can focus on this this is something we can do something about in a more sustained and collective manner you know dr. sage will say Nauset may Allah bless him in 1966 gave a series of lectures at the University of Chicago entitled man and nature the spiritual crisis in modern man dr. NASA has not expand expounding on this theme since then over 50 years ago and we've had other scholars as a beautiful volume published in 2003 called the Simon ecology bestowed trust with articles by dr. NASA professor Ibrahim oldest Emir and while I'm mod and as a man Llewelyn among others that's what are we 20 19 16 years ago we have been told about this we have been aware we've had scholars talking about these issues yet our collective will to use our influence and power is still quite limited but things can change we only have to look at the poultry industry which frankly is a nightmare it's not only how the animals are slaughtered and and how they're treated but the culling process for male chicks and industrialized egg production facilities since males do not lay eggs they're killed once they hatch in the United States male chicks are macerated this means they are ground alive American egg producers have now said that by next year by 2020 they will have perfected the technology to be able to determine the sex before hatching and so they'll be able to cull the eggs instead of the chicks in Canada the Canadian government gave almost a million dollars to help the egg industry transition to this practice this shows that political action can be directed successfully towards the welfare of animals because this is the only reason this change has been made because of the outrage of consumers and of human beings who could not see this happening and because of the courage of activists who snuck into these facilities and and recorded this process so we can do something let's and I just go back to what dr. Mustapha the animals are sacrificing the workers who are doing the slaughtering and butchering are sacrificing what are we sacrificing it's time for us to give some attention and when we do this it's not only that we'll do the right thing but when we improve these processes and it will take time and there are many levels of it we will start to be able to bring animals back into our life so it's not just about you know about staying away from it but it is possible that if we if we create these processes and develop them in a way that is truly humane and beneficial then we will have this blessing of being in closer community with the this community of created beings because yes we belong to the community of Muslims and we belong to the little cute AB and we belong to Ben Oh Adam the community of humanity brothers and sisters in humanity we also belong to the community of living things things that have life and it is possible for us to be in closer contact through awareness through activism through engagement in a in a way that's beneficial for us and them and for those other human beings who are having a very difficult time because of our consumption processes our practices so I'll end with this even though I've got about 15 more pages but we'll leave that for tomorrow I look forward tomorrow to a a really great discussion and maybe hopefully some vigorous debates so that we can push forward and advance forward may Allah subhana WA Ta'ala allow us all to to learn and to grow and have open heart I am grateful to be here with you and I asked Alice penomet Arda to send his peace and blessings from upon our our master muhammad sallallaahu and it was send them in Hamden ahead Roberta I mean Santa Monica [Applause] salamualikum' so we're gonna have a brief Q&A with dr. Mattson so if anyone has any questions please come up to this microphone right here why did it come Sarah well you mentioned the there is a concept called hispano you think that expound on it what is it and like sort of right so so Hesby regulation of the public sphere per tick in particular the marketplace and so the Montesa would be the one who would make sure that when people were selling things that they weren't committing fraud that if they were selling food that the food was not spoiled and it was wholesome or they they they didn't you know deceive the consumer the Marchesa also was required to was responsible for ensuring fair what we might call fair labor practices so that if someone was being overworked or mistreated that they would would then be able to intervene and they could they could you know take these cases to court to the judge or they could be fined or they could be ordered to shut down their shop and also for the for the animals the pack animals if animals were working to make sure that they were being fed watered not overworked and so the the I mean I talked about motive as one person but really it's this it's this HISP of the the power of his paw the power comes from being able you know having the power of the state behind them now I'm not saying that this is always about the power of the state we we can have a different kind of power through the organizations that we can't we all have executive authority for exam all over our own institutions so we do have the ability to actually make things happen or or shut things down and in the organizations that we control that's what board boards of directors do right but we also have this there's shareholder activism there's also the power of consumers when they work together so you know that's not exactly the same as hiss pop but really what I'm looking for is is examining processes and structures how people animals and others are being treated and nature itself you know the waterways so you know if someone say was throwing some noxious substance that was that was polluting the water the common water system for example all of these things need to be addressed not just by telling people behave better don't you know this is wrong but actually you need to stop people and so we do have where that power is available to us where that influence is available to us we need to take it on because the reality is that there are many people who have no influence who have no ability to to put pressure and change things we have we have a lot in this area Subhan Allah may Allah you know protect that for us whiteness our salah thank you so much doctor so I have two questions so one of them is and listen to what you said the thing that just kept coming to my was BDS so the reason it's because of what you mentioned trade to what extent like they're they're our own money goes to companies that ultimately will oppress Muslims in this country outside of this country and we actually contribute to that with this this form of trade so your I want to ask your opinion or not the second goes through the issue of I know like in Italy and other places in United States they have vineyards and all these guys got together they say okay we will have the stamp this is certified to come from a certain region here we don't have things of that sort but we certainly have examples of like restaurants and things of that sort that buy from splendid producers if you take a look at those producers particularly the meat producers they are they treat their animals ethically mmm-hmm even when restaurants buy from them they pay premium prices and the best of them actually is halal certified in this area he only produces a Landis halal certified but it's it almost begs the question why can't we do it by forming our own associations producing eating things like hummus thank you yeah I mean they're there so the second question first it's always possible to create a a certification Authority for all sorts of things and it doesn't have to be comprehensive but it can it can set a standard that that you know the very existence of the standard is a source of information and a challenge to do better and that's you know food we eat that's the way our mosques run that's I mean there are all sorts of benefits of standards standards and certify you know Seraph having standards and then certifying is also beneficial because it creates a sector that that then can can you need more than one person or one company you need you need to create a sector that then by its existence allows for more awareness and also then those producers can themselves put some pressure through four on regulation so I'm you know I believe that we we should really look at many areas of our lives I mean my basic ethical principle is that we should never empower someone or an institution unless we're capable of providing supervision over the head and correcting it you know we shouldn't just sort of say okay you're the one and go do something and then set them free and we can never go back to it so certification is an important issue when it comes to BDS BDS is I mean at least in some ways could be a specific instance of what we would call more generally supply chain ethics right so supply chain ethics it's you buy chocolate or coffee and it says Fairtrade certified rainforest certified your tuna dolphin certified etc so the idea of looking at the supply chain and at each stage how is what is the impact on people on workers on a community on the environment on animals you know whatever whatever it is all the way along and supply the the the supply chain ethics again is is something that that has become you know very popular in many different areas yeah I guess the it has it has benefits and I think it has it has actual benefits and then it has some a symbolic or educational benefit in in making people aware of the issue and keeping the issue in front of people's minds so that they might then do more because consumer activism is yeah it is limited in its impact it is better than nothing so supply chain ethics is is certainly better than nothing and it's a great start but it is it still is not you know there's still much more that needs to be done when we talk about nation states but we might not have that you know we may not be able to influence or change the foreign laws of the land or you know federal regulations about many things so at least paying attention to these supply chain ethics is important is is beneficial as long as we also do not mmm-hmm well I mean BDS really is it kind of falls into this and kind of doesn't but we also have to make sure that we're being careful about consumption in general I mean if I fill my house with all rainforest certified you know ethical foods and I have saw him so much that I end up wasting some or throwing it away or I'm spending so much time just thinking about food all the time or consumer goods you know I think okay I'm gonna buy this look for spending a lot of time looking for this thing and this thing and this thing I also have to start to think about how I'm spending my time I mean overall am i becoming too much of a aficionado of food or certain kinds of goods or whatever it is and really need to spend spend less time just consuming things and and more time doing other things well thank you very much for this beautiful thoughtful discourse and I was very much struck by your ending with the concept of the husband of the market awesome so I'd like to come back to that again um some of the jurists have held that the market aciem has to be more a greater Alim has to have more knowledge than than the father does because he he or she has so many responsibilities in so many fields and this has been devolved now into secular experts in the modern world with all the different fields including my own of environmental or wildlife protection and environmental protection of the various things but I've often wondered would it be possible to revive the Hezbollah one might go about that I'd like to ask you what do you think about that and maybe it's not just a question for for tonight but for tomorrow as well for for further discussion thank you you so much I mean certainly certainly certainly people responsible people can do a good job from you know a secular perspective if they're given they're given regulations and they enforce regulations but when someone is you know it's different I mean this is the difference between between an interpreted law and a living law and and a a a canonical law everything is not going to be in the regulations you know everything is not going to be written down that if you have if you don't internalize and embody the spirit behind those like why are we doing these things we're not doing these things just because it's it's the law but because we really care we believe and we we honor a law is creation we value we believe that these creatures have dignity and we also feel a spiritual kinship with them so there's a whole nother level that I think is not only that that on the one hand will allow us to see more and do more not just the laws but to be able to shape the environment and and look at things not you know one of the problems with adjudication or just enforcing regulations is that it often leaves people resentful no one wants to pay a fine no one wants someone yelling at them or closing down their shop right ideally the Marchesa it is trying to trying to also get those people they correct to to have a change of heart so that they also can see what's behind the law and so they changed that they are able to embrace a different perspective in what they're doing subhanAllah I mean even Islamic Courts historically judges did did their best to develop processes that allowed people to start to value their own relationships when they were in conflict so that the judge didn't have to have to just pick a winner or a loser and and the more Tessa is is part of that system that system of trying to to really transform people and get them to to value their relationships relationships with each other and also relationships with other living beings so I don't know how it works in a modern nation-state but I don't know maybe in our own you know maybe there are some settings where we can at least try to try to shape relationships and attitudes and and nudge norms with the same spirit Aloha I know that's a big question we can take a final question from online so Hatton from facebook asks how can we evaluate what is halau because it seems to have become just a marketing tag okay can you say it again I can't hear it very well yes how can we as average consumers basically evaluate what is halau because it seems to have become simply a marketing tag oh I see okay so clearly these were went when we talk about about seeking to to consume and live in an ethical and wholesome way that this is not a personal obligation this is a collective obligation this is a this is as a community we need to develop the processes and structures to help us be able to fulfill these responsibilities and that's why we have certifying agencies that's why we have scientists that's why we have experts but we can't be passive and just in just you know looking at a label and and we see those five letters halau and and think that that's good enough we do need to do some you know undertake some due diligence in at least being aware of who are the certifiers who what are their standards and find trustworthy people you know whether this has to do with learning our religion I mean how do you how do you find a teacher how do you find a mentor how do you we we we don't just take the first person who walks in the door who's we see an advertisement we we have to talk to people we do a little bit of research we and find out who are the trustworthy organizations where the trustworthy people and if we're very interested maybe we can begin to learn more and more and even enter this field in some way but we certainly have some responsibilities as with all aspects of our religion of not being just passive and you know checking a box in a superficial way and thinking that that's enough and that's why something like this Center and no one asked me to be promoting the center but honestly it's it's the reality that this is why you need centers like this to be able to review and evaluate and suggest and support the development of more and more expertise and and trustworthy avenues for for supporting our desire to engage in an ethical way of life few times if you could just define that for us or tell us what you mean by wholesome so I'm using I'm I'm it's one of them one of my preferred translations of play up and and as I said coming from the word whole that we're looking at something holistically so we're not just looking at one one principle for example you know one thing is done right and then well well we elevate one aspect everything else is is disastrous for example so wholesome we're looking at the the effect of this product or process or consumption on on the things around it on the people on the animals on the environment we're looking at when we look at production processes it cannot only be that this is a this is a beautiful product if the workers who make it are treated with disrespect or denied their rights are overworked or underpaid that is not a wholesome product so it's about it's about taking a bigger picture it's about finding what's coming in what's going out and it's very much an embodied process it's not just about ideas it's about looking in actuality at the affects and this is something that we should be you know it is it's certainly core to our religion that our worship for example is an embodied worship that our idea of purification is about what our body touches you know the is the water pure what about the land that I'm I'm praying on so so it's thinking what am i what am I taking in what am i touching what am i bringing in and how did it get to me this kind of supply chain and what happens afterwards so it's not only what I take in but what happens afterwards is this thing wrapped in like tons of plastic and now I'm now I you know this beautiful for example I've seen maybe I shouldn't say this because maybe someone has a business with this or something but I've seen for example sometimes lately miss wax that are packaged in about five layers of packaging when it's a Miss wax that you could just like throw in a box it it's it's wrapped in plastic than in a special case a box and that box is in another box and that's put in a bag I mean and then where does all that stuff go what happens to all all of that garbage right so so wholesome is is is what comes in and what comes out and in a very embodied way in a material way what are the what are the effects and impacts [Applause]

Channel: Zaytuna College

Views: 23,269

Rating: 4.8511629 out of 5

Keywords: Hamza yusuf, Islam, Zaytuna College, Muslim college, Zaid Shakir, Liberal arts, Islamic college, Islamic studies, What is Islam, Muslim, Islamic worship, Islamic religion, Muslim religion, Islamic education, Great books, Islamic philosophy, Muslim philosophy, Islamic theology, Muslim theology, Muslim history, Islamic history, Ramadan, Islamic spirituality, Muslim spirituality, Islamic mysticism, Islamic metaphysics, Muslim liberal arts, Islamic tradition

Id: xC6utbxgFvQ

Length: 71min 52sec (4312 seconds)

Published: Fri May 10 2019