Growing Up Quiverfull - The Duggar's Destructive Cult

hey everyone you know Scientology is not the only destructive cult out there it's been said that because of its litany of mind-control techniques in the insidious way it takes over every aspect of your life Scientology is one of the worst however that's a highly subjective statement and after you hear my interview with cult survivor Christian a minor in this video I think you'll see that there is no reason to try to judge which of these destructive cults are worse than any others after all they are called destructive cults for a reason they ruin people's ability to think rationally destroy their emotional stability and often swindle them out of thousands or even millions of dollars in the process I met Cristiano recently here in Colorado and was impressed by the struggle she went through growing up in the quiver full movement this was not something I had heard of before and found out it's a relatively recent creation and is not a centralized cult movement with only one leader who demands loyalty and submission from his followers now instead this is a Christian based philosophy centered around the idea that children are a blessing from God however looking deeper into this I found out that the quiver full movement is associated with some other teachings that are anything but a blessing the term quiver foal comes from a biblical passage Psalms 127 5 like arrows in the hand of a warrior so are the children of one's youth how blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them they will not be ashamed when they speak with their enemies in the gate there's certainly nothing wrong with being fruitful and multiplying if you have the time and resources to properly care for your family and give each child of loving home however it's in dealing with the problems of child-rearing and education that some parents have turned to people whose methods and philosophies are nothing short of child abuse and which give the fathers of these quiver full children a do-it-yourself kit to turning their families into destructive cult units one such person is Bill Gothard another is Michael Pearl both of whom are talked about in this interview before getting on to crystianna I want to give you a little background on who Bill Gothard is Gotthard was born in 1934 he graduated with a master's in Christian education in 1961 and that same year founded an organization called campus teams this was changed in 1974 to the Institute in basic youth conflicts and was changed yet again in 1989 to the Institute in basic life principles these groups gave seminars and workshops directed and offered by gathered on his ideas of what a god-fearing and Bible based family should be and how it should conduct itself these seminars were attended by as many as 10,000 people at a time during their heyday in the 1970s but he's kept going strong all the way to the present in fact this movement had a shot in the arm when the Duggar family got their own reality show on TLC in 2008 the Duggars are strong supporters of God's methods and have even done presentations at his seminars cathodes methods and preachings incorporate not only a quiver full approach to family planning but also calls for biblical patriarchy this is where the husband / father is viewed as standing just below God and whose every word is a sort of divine command which is to be unquestioningly followed by his wife and children failure to comply results in psychological emotional and physical discipline until the family learns to follow orders without question one of Duggars children Josh was exposed in the media in May 2015 for sexually molesting four of his sisters while still a minor himself I won't rehash all the details of that scandal except to point out the Jim Bob Duggars actions in handling this were inexcusably bad and objectively speaking were not in accord with the law or anything resembling common sense however his actions were totally in alignment with God's teachings and how he recommends sexual abuse be handled within families that should tell you something about just how much value those teachings actually have in the real world so without further ado here is Christian so um you were involved in the quiver full movement yes well right like you were raised I was raised into it yep all right so first off I think people need to know what is that basically the quiver full movement is about families um being strong in the Lord being strong in their faith and raising up the Lord's army yeah okay yeah what's army that's yeah there's actually a song about it really I could sing it if you want Wow yeah okay yeah it's really short it goes as there is in the hands of a mighty man so we're children to their fathers did it so that we can storm the enemy God's mighty host of sons and daughters Wow that's still ingrained in my mind I see with the movements and everything yep Wow yep but it's about trusting that God will provide for all the children you have and having as many as your faith will allow so it's just being very very strong in faith and having as many kids as possible interesting interesting I was interested in looking this up and researching it to find out what perfil really really is at its heart just about having children and not having any birth control no abortion no restrictions of any time no it shows lack of faith so right all right if you if you try to do that if you run a what-if in control or restraints on birth control letting God's work happen that's right even I mean even natural forms of child control you know like like you know watching when you're you know having intercourse what time of the month is it yep even that is just nope you just hey you know me hey so I found that I found that interesting an interesting philosophy and it's apparently based in on the Bible it is that is that right like what how does this happy fruitful and multiply right that's what it's about right oh they got it good and this idea actually comes it's an old idea I mean that's what it's not particularly unique to just the quiver full movement to be fruitful and multiply no okay but these guys have taken it and I'm run with it basically yeah all right so how how did this connect for your family with the concept of biblical patriarchy because that's also a very closely tied in concept with many of aquiver whole families well my family got all mixed up in both quiver full and patriarchy biblical patriarchy and fundamentalism all in one nice one nice group that made it nice and easy to get involved in all that okay yeah we got involved in Bill Gothard Institute of basic life principles and his home schooling program the advanced training institutes and a lot of those same beliefs and lifestyles are just kind of embedded in that in that society really cool yeah a lot of the families practiced quiver full or we're involved in the performance and they were practicing following that biblical patriarchy system because the father is the absolute head of the household and it was him that God bestowed Authority how was it that your family got involved with Bill Gothard in the first place how did that happen a big downward spiral in a way okay yeah cuz I started out pretty regular I mean my family was fairly conservative very Christian we went to church every Sunday we're very involved um and I grew up well that grew up because I just went to public school from I think kindergarten to second grade then after that my parents decided to home-school so I started being homeschooled in second grade my sister who was after me was just a couple years younger than me so the guinea-pig the first one to get involved in all this and then a few years into that we got involved into a local Christian homeschooling group and it was actually pretty neat a lot of the different parents would get together and each would teach lessons and classes to all the other kids in the group depending on their own expertise so I mean I got involved in drama class I had gym class in a way of course home and all this stuff and that was pretty fun but then it wasn't conservative enough for my family my family just kind of fell out of love with that group and we started going to these seminars held by Bill Gothard um and he has in a basic seminar an advanced seminar in a Children's Institute and the song I just sang came from the Children's Institute I went for a few years okay so this wasn't just seminars for your parents you were going yeah and for all ages yep and we all got pulled into it and that was kind of his um cultic group light it was how he got people to come in because they were very popular seminars and thousands and thousands of people would go to them and we were like they would be held in big auditoriums and they'd be full to capacity and there just be hundreds of other kids there at the kid seminars and when I graduated to the basic seminar I mean there was just thousands of people Wow and they were yeah they were held all across the country and a lot of you know pastors would go and get their congregations to check him out cuz oh man this guy you know he had a lot of good ideas and was on fire for the Lord okay and so Bill Gothard then was combining these concepts of quiver full and be fruitful multiply with the patriarchy in a way yeah oh yeah these seminars are what first got us in and then once he suckered you in to homeschooling your kids using his specialized curriculum that's when the really weird teachings started coming out now this is fascinating okay this is very very fascinating all right so I'm gonna take a wild guess here that your parents had to pay for these oh of course yes yeah every year ours and the school cereals yeah there were regional seminars there were national conferences I think we only got to go once but it was a thing that was a great point of pride for people to go and I believe on I haven't actually watched them myself but the Duggars on TV like they show their family van with like science and ATI or bust because they were headed to national seminar oh is that ATI yes the Advanced Training Institute is the home schooling component of Bill Gothard Institute of basic life principles okay so this is how the Duggars get away with not saying their quiver full because they deny on their website that their quiver 'fl they just say their fundamentalist Christians who follow the Bible which which states be fruitful and multiply and they're involved in all these groups that really strongly support I mean my family had six kids and that was small right all my friends there were eight kids 10 kids 12 kids and their families and that was normal for us Wow so you grew up around very big families hmm interesting nice thing now of course my parents came from big families both my mother and my father you know Christian Catholic families Midwest you know back from the 50 40s and 50s yeah baby boomer generation and that sort of thing but this is a different thing from them this is because what we're talking about what this group is large families because the Bible tells you yeah and you're and you're literally on the kind of mission duty right you're on a crusade to make soldiers for God yeah it's scary it really is it doesn't have obvious overtones to it yet because not only are these families having giant kids but they're raising them in a very insulated environment where they're homeschooling them and they're very controlling as to what kind of outside influences are allowed so let's talk about that because I knew this was going to come up right the Duggars have have it's been made known through their experience that you know the daughters control you know will what I'm the story I told us you know the daughters run ahead and and alert the sons you know if they're out in the public mall or something that you know maybe some woman's approaching who's scantily clad and they have to admit her eyes and tell what was your experience with that that is the same mindset all across what I'm wearing now wouldn't be appropriate at all because my skirt doesn't cover my knees when I sit down um at my collarbone is show and you know that that kind of thing it's not allowed they like the patterns on my skirt they're called eye traps there's a whole thing about how loud patterns are just oh they're drawing your eyes to some part of the body you're not supposed to everything a woman is supposed to we're supposed to be just supposed to draw you to her countenance is the principle of it and so one word when my family would be driving around just you know going out grocery shop and go in to visit family all of a sudden our dough said kids look down her mom would say go close your eyes it's because the Billboard would be approaching as we go down the highway that had a woman on it that wasn't quite up to our standards modesty Wow so your parents control that and then they doctrine ated you guys into controlling yourselves mm-hmm in regards to this or drawing each other we were vigilant that's for sure yeah for each other um we you know and Kiki got a bunch of siblings they would be like I'm going to tell mom that you can close your eyes when they were kissing in the movie kind of thing that's a spot-on impression of my little siblings by the way how's that is manifest while you were growing up what other systems of very interested in what other systems of control or indoctrination were used because this you this hit you early autumn in second grade your families second grade yeah we weren't involved in Bill Gothard cult until I was about 12 but at the years in between we got slowly more and more conservative I mean I have a few pictures of me as a little kid still allowed to wear pants but that wasn't so much a thing later it was all along skirts the music we listened to was very controlled anything with a repetitive beat was considered of Satan because it's that African rock beat that you're calling up demons and I I don't know and so it would get to the point where if we heard it coming you know you're just out and about shopping and you hear you know just pop music you know it's getting piped overhead and everything I knew kids who had agreed with their parents that they would cover their ears anytime anything ungodly came on we had to mute things during movies or you know I mean we were lucky we're allowed to watch movies but if the music was bad you know muted or during commercials that kind of thing i I know a families who they'd go out to eat at restaurants and they would talk to management say excuse me this radio station you're playing right now that's against our convictions you need to change it and it was a way for them to even out and about in the world to keep the family insulated against the evil influence of Satan and also let their light shine because they're letting people know you know this music you're listening to it's it's it's worse than you think it's dangerous right so it's not just a matter of being isolated or insular it's actually their effort at controlling their environment to maybe get other people drawn into their overall yeah just kind of showing here these are our standards and what would would is what is it by your life they they shall know him or something in a little while since I've read hey that's all good how did the patriarchy manifest itself in your home um dad was a head of the household and was that that way your entire life or did this okapi the father's always yeah father but you know like obviously a family unit has a father and a mother and the father's usually the disciplinarian while the mother is usually the one who you can talk to and I mean just to be totally stereotypical yeah but the patriarchy is a whole different thing because it puts the concept in place that there's God and then there's dad mm-hmm and everything dad says is basically like the Word of God mm-hmm how did that manifest in your house dad was basically the mouthpiece of God as you said um we were taught that our authority like biblical god-given Authority it was called a dad is this protective umbrella to keep us from the fiery darts of Satan and under him is mom who is also an authority but has to submit herself to dad and then under both of their umbrellas kids are kept safe let you step out of line you step out of that protective umbrella and who knows what kind of horrible things you would be subject to I mean a lot of people say yeah my parents were strict my parents were more than strict they were very controlling I mean my whole life was between being homeschooled at home practicing piano at home and then serving in the church that was pretty much it I think I had a couple friends I can count on one hand how many friends I had in the neighborhood but everything was about serving at home being a good little you know soldier for Christ at home and also at church and that was that was it there was a lot of you have to be a witness you have be an example the Bill Gothard whole thing like The Children's Institute we were taught how to smile how to raise our hands you have to at least have three teeth showing he could raise your he can only raise your hand like this none of this whole teacher pick me crap it's okay sit quietly and do this see now that is fascinating we're talking about some real control here uh-huh and of course we can't forget you our home school so you did not have a social life what I didn't have anything to measure my experience against no course not of course not understanding social I mean that's why I'm stressing looking back on the experience now because you only have you know the education and experience you had in the real world mm-hmm since leaving that environment to compare to yep I imagine at the time it seems like this was the normal way that people should be living it was my normal and it was how we were raised to think you know everybody should be doing this at least other Christians if there were real Christians and really loved Jesus they would be doing this so did you ever rail against it in any way or feel that while you were growing up that maybe something was off with what was happening I fell for it hook line and sinker um because it's all I knew I know I was never truly happy growing up I mean there were happy moments there's a lot of really good memories I have mostly just with me hanging out with my siblings like today we get along pretty well we enjoy each other's company we have a lot of the same tastes and music and books and movies and stuff um but that child it was not happy my parents were abusive from ever since I can remember in a lot of different ways and I feel like their authoritarian mindset is what drew them towards quiver full and at the Advanced Training Institute and the Institute of basic life principles and that whole lifestyle because it gave them all the control they wanted I think that's a very important point and it speaks to a larger belief that I have that religion or control groups like this high control groups like this draw people to them who already have an inclination or tendency area in that direction this you know you have people who are inclined toward authoritarianism you just mentioned mm-hmm they're drawn like a magnet to a high control group like this that tells them you are blessed by God for feeling the way you feel mm-hmm please be a tyrant toward your children because that's the best possible thing that God would want you to do mm-hmm you know unfortunately the children have no choice no you're not drawn to it and as individuals you know if you had a choice in the matter and informed if you could make an informed decision about your involvement in it you know I'd really rather not do this so that's so and that's where I feel the victimization comes in mm-hmm would you would you be willing to share anything else about the abusive environment that you experienced to the channel um quiver fall is not just about having as many kids as you want and I'm not going to say that everybody with a lot of kids is meat and abusive towards their kids because they're not I know a lot of families that weren't but um the there there is a couple Michael and Debbie pearl they wrote a book called train up your child and that was like second to the Bible in our household the mother needs to understand if she takes away her husband's authority even by a face even by making like a pitiful look appeal to her husband she is taking away all authority from that child's life if that child is gonna have authority mother you gotta let that man be the authority punish him with the rod severe that's what your neuter screamer is around here maybe have fun it'll be a lot easier training feel like a winner you get five licks for being mean you get five more for life you don't see whose line I'm going to get this rod if you scrape too hard with the first five gets hysterical wait you know a little psychological terror sometimes more effective than pain thumping him on the head you're worried about that give me another question we talked about that carry him home and train them give another one father who will not take his part and discipline when he does discipline it's out of anger make love to him if your husband is an angry man make love get rid of his frustration make him happy because it's the man who determines the course of the house so I give them five more so now get up still got a bad attitude get up I'm going to say you're still crying I'm going to give you something to cry about it's all about breaking the child's will and molding them into who you think God wants them to be and so involved in that is just it's physical abuse um it's emotional abuse it's like illogical abuse and it's basically about making that child do what you want them to do Michael and Debbie pearl talked about have you ever heard of blanket training you a baby is placed on a blanket and parents will try to entice them off the blanket by you know waving keys favorite toy whatever and if that child sets you know one toe off the edge of that blanket yeah and that transit kid don't leave this blanket don't you dare and it's that mindset that colors everything when the kids older don't don't question don't leave these borders and what you dare even when the parents are the ones enticing the child sick I told you that is beyond sick that is a psychological manipulation that could could make a person insane I I'm a critical therapist but my understanding is we know enough wrong yeah how insanity is made mm-hmm from my own experiences to know that that is it goes beyond mixed messages you teach a kid that following their own desires taking initiative on their own is wrong if they don't have permission to do it and the thing about these movements in these groups is that you never outgrow it because Jesus was 33 and he still followed his father's Commandments so I mean especially for her girls I think until until uh until ownership has passed from father to you know her husband and she's handed over it it's just your your commodity your you you are another little soldier for Christ who has been molded by the parents to follow orders the same control happens when you're older because the only form of discipline that they know is just keep hitting until you break that kids will just keep it going as long as you can't prove to them that you're bigger and stronger than them is I think it's a direct quote from Michael pearl and his book train up a child just show them that you're bigger and stronger and keep hitting until until they break you and so that was I mean we got hit for a lot of stuff growing up yeah I got it mm-hmm I got it any sort of infraction or breaking of the rules of the house hole sort of thing yeah yeah and if you know Mom or Dad were in a bad mood that kind of thing you know it's just easier to take your frustrations out I think on the helpless people who were conveniently right there fair enough yeah how did this physical abuse tie in with with enforcing a belief system on you was where those things tied together anyway it makes you fear to question a rebel that's for sure especially when you're you know your mom's favorite bible verse is you know for a kid to rebel is the same as witchcraft and it's just okay so rebellion is you know death basically um so it was that fear and that mindset that keeps you on line pretty effectively again yeah all right um what was your position in the family we wish child number were you number one tell us I was the oldest always second mommy since I was about nine years old I think there's six of us total there's kind of a big gap between me and the sister after me there's like four and a half years there but then every two years or so I think opted to recount I always forget but every about every two years another you know sibling would arrive and yeah I was the oldest a lot of responsibility on my shoulders the quiver full movement is pretty brutal for the oldest daughters because they're expected to help raise the younger siblings it's just the way it goes and so I be you know in high school trying to teach myself biology I'd be you know just told okay these are the chapters you read in this textbook and I'd be trying to learn it and then I'd get interruptions out you have to change you know your little brothers diaper you got to go start lunch for everybody and that was how I struggled through high school trying to teach myself and run a household at the same time what did your siblings ever come to you for sympathy or support if in those abusive situations in a way we would try to solve problems on our own before bringing them to the attention of our parents because bringing it to their attention usually made the situation worse so um I mean I'm ashamed to say sometimes I was a disciplinarian I was never as brutal as my parents sometimes it was like I told you to help me put away the dishes you know a little SWAT or something maybe that's maybe it's a different version of that story my siblings minds in their memories but um we basically learned to have to take care of ourselves at least that's how it was from my viewpoint um I couldn't go to my parents for any help for anything um it was it was tough for sure I imagine and there's certainly no judgment here you know you were raised in this environment no following you so yeah I'm tracking on that yeah it's not the same it is impossible to or at least it seems to me morally impossible to put the same kind of judgment factor on a child who was raised in an environment where they've given no choice whatsoever as to how they are to believe what they're to believe how to act versus parents who 100% had a choice yeah as to whether they were or how they were going to live their lives so it's a whole is why it's different I mean yeah now with my daughter I wouldn't lay a finger on her oh yeah and for her timeout is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to anybody right yeah all right um are there any other points you'd like to mention in regards to your upbringing and the influence of quiver full or the patriarchy or any other aspect of gothos teachings or pearls machines it's try it's being human but trying to live up to these impossible standards um because when you would go to the conferences and everything everybody would be dressed in there Veon whites every that was we called ourselves penguins like that was the the formal attire that we were supposed to wear at all the conferences and training centers and everything and everybody had their three tooth and they're like hey how you doin handshake um but at home it felt like a battlefield you're just caught I mean I remember I just always felt on edge I never had any privacy really um and there was no real way to escape that because the world is evil home is terrible home hurts home is full of tension where are you supposed to go how often were you guys going to these gotham's seminars and workshops um the the organization was going through some kind of a transition I think during my time of growing up in there were they were going towards more regional like in-home conferences where we would just get together with a couple other families and we'd have the videos and we'd do that I think you know it was just a little more intimate and cozy and homey and everything but I remember going several different times um not every year but every every Park every couple years we'd be going to these these seminars and collaborating with other families and reminding ourselves what it was that Bill Gothard was teaching us well that's that's the point is keeping the indoctrination fresh mm-hmm and so I'm wondering if you how often were they use little intimate family get-togethers with videos what was that about um well I mean I think it was preferred you do him you did him every year or so I only remember doing him maybe once or twice because you know we joined when I was about 12 and then I didn't go to any more of these things when I turned 18 so for me I mean the it was a very destructive influence in my life and I was only there for six years I mean there was a lot of people that were born into we ran your siblings of course mm-hmm a lot of them more important to us yeah are your parents still involved in this yes all right are your are any of your siblings still at home yes okay I'm sorry to hear that maybe okay how did you escape from this the the whole system is set up in such a way that your property mm-hmm you're considered you know as a woman your property how it to be passed from the father to your to my team yeah how did you manage to escape the situation I got a college education and that was not really supported in the cultic circles that I grew up in um Bill Gothard teaches that higher education is unnecessary all you need is your character to show I mean can you imagine writing ahead I think 49 character qualities just you know put that list down and hand that over as your resume that's totally going to land you a job right but I was lucky and that my parents told me well what if your future husband dies and you're left to support the kids you need a back-up plan your parents actually initiated that idea they they valued education more than Bill Gothard and I think that was my salvation of sorts because I was able to choose my major I went to a real school um the ATI the IB LP they had their own college of sorts which was not really I'm sorry I can you the ATI BPI IB LP sorry the Institute of basic life principles it's a really long name so there's a lot of acronyms involved here okay what is it about Colson acronym yes but yes please what what is that what is that is there the Institute of basic basic life principles yeah was founded by Bill Gothard in the 70s um and back then he worked with I believe inner-city youth and so it was formerly called the Institute of basic youth conflicts um and he just had this Oh moment and thought I know how to fix everybody's life in all you need are these seven basic principles and he based in an organization on that he based a homeschool curriculum on that he based his seminars on that design authority responsibility suffering ownership freedom and identification and of course he has his own definition of what all these words are like for design God has precise purposes for each person object and relationship which he established only as we understand and follow these will we find our identity in fulfillment in life Authority is the big one God has established a structure of authority and a balance of power he is also ordained that with proper attitudes and wise peels those under authority can have far-reaching influence responsibilities god holds us personally responsible for every one of our words thoughts actions attitudes and motives therefore whenever we sin there must be confession and proper restitution for kids that confession is to their parents I guess they're kind of like the mini Pope of the house or something suffering God has ordained that we receive grace for personal cleansing growth and achievement by learning how to properly respond to those who offend us that gets pretty twisted later I have another handout that's also part of the seminar about how to counsel sexual abuse victims there's only 12 steps and it's not until step 6 that they talk about if the victim is not at fault then they have to go through these steps of you know responding properly to their offender and putting their life back in putting their life and body back under God's control and it's very victim-blaming it's very scary five ownership God allows us to conquer anger and worry as we acknowledge that all we have is from him and belongs to him based on this we must yield our personal rights and expectations to God this is what keeps people under control because you're not allowed to be angry if you are angry it's a personal failing and you got a you know yield your own rights and you got to talk to those in authority and apologize for being a person number six freedom godly freedom is not the right to do what we want but the power to do what we ought the freedom which God designed and morals and finances is to allow us to serve others in love and identification God conquered the world the flesh and the devil through the death burial and resurrection of Christ as we can graph Scripture into our soul and renew our mind with these truths day and night we enter into his power and live above the law of sin and the way Bill Gothard proposed doing that is memorizing huge chunks of the Bible like I used to have chapters whole books of the Bible memorized really yes and we were supposed to just think on them and think on them and think on them that's it that is a very important destructive cult control method that is used not just in Bill Gothard oh I'm sure uh methodology I that was very much part of Scientology interesting if I remember correctly Bill Gothard credits this part this memorization and meditation on Scripture he calls it as the key to success because it helps them academically and it just knowing God's Word so well you just have to be successful it's magic it's a magic spell book that's what it is so this is very okay so this is this is actually very very interesting because I'm changing my mind here a bit about some of what we were going to be talking about only because I did not realize the influence of this individual Bill Gothard on your life in the life of others or that he had this high control system of indoctrination going on into your family I was under the impression that it was quicker falling it and I just didn't I just didn't get it's always I'm failing on your products didn't understand and there's a lot of overlap I mean like the Duggars they're the most famous quiver full family there is thanks to reality TV Thank You TLC but they follow Bill Gothard z-- curriculum and went to his seminars they presented at his seminars before that explains so much like um there are mascot just like Scientology has its own yes Wow okay so Gotthard proposes a system that is quiver full patriarchal and then he puts his own high control methods in oh yeah and he would hate all those words and a lot of the people that are in that system will hate all those words but the beliefs and the lifestyle are there for sure the teachings are there right yeah and they'll they'll claim that it's all Bible based mm-hmm but in fact what he's done you mentioned this million page handbook it's his interpretation for sure right yeah and of course his interpretation is the only right one he calls it a new way of life that that was the tagline of the Institute of basic life principles and the Advanced Training Institute and everything it was a new way of life and it was supposed to be full of these bright-eyed bushy-tailed young people who were going to take the world over for Christ Wow so out of all of the horrible things that happen to you during those six years that there's influence was you know over your family you yet managed to get away because your parents managed to hold on to this idea that education was important yep I gotta say that is a real stroke of luck I was very lucky in that way absolutely because a lot of the people I knew they weren't allowed to go to college they're trying to now but it's so much harder when they're estranged from their parents and you need a parent's signature for you know financial aid that kind of thing they never had a high school diploma how are they gonna you know now they have their you know older in their adult years and they're trying to navigate you know gd's and getting financial aid for college and doing all this stuff on their own now when it should have been years ago that it was taken care of or they were allowed to go to college but only to an approved one like Bill Gothard had his own college Olivos called Verity I almost went very far about the frying pan into the fire yeah it was a very highly controlled environment from what I've known I I've been told that women who go to this college had to take mandatory home eck classes at the supposedly collegiate level and basically yeah because knowledge and education is a direct threat to everything and so you need a safe environment to get that education and tottered magically provides the safe environment where you have curfew at 8:00 except on Saturdays when it's 9:00 and you basically do clip tests clip test your way out of all these credits so that you come away with a bachelor's degree in 22 months and that's how they pitched it to the parents of going you know what it's a lot cheaper to do it this way this is a godly environment they will be on surveillance the entire time basically and it's going to be cheaper how do you know for you because it's only 22 months as opposed to four whole years have any of your other siblings reached the age of leaving home mm-hmm and have they successfully gotten away from this - um so far my one sister has she's finished with college and the brother after her is almost done with his and they both got to go to the non Verity yeah oh so far yeah and then there's another sister who is in the midst of a college education at a state university so you know a real cesspool of evil well I'm hated by the fact that following that they allowed them to follow your example they found ways to keep control and again I I can only speak for myself not my siblings but I went to college very much brainwashed as to the danger College held for me and my spiritual life and what I had to do to protect it and also what would happen if I stepped out of line remember the umbrella if I stepped out from under that umbrella fiery darts and Satan and everything so the whole hailstorm of evil and so I mean I was required to send daily reports by a certain time of what what I did every day back to home I would get random calls sometimes um I know like my mother called a few times in the middle of the night woke up my poor roommate demanding okay where are you where have you been you know I was down the hall doing laundry or the worst the worst worst rebellion was when I was out with a boy getting ice cream I was literally a block away down from my dorm getting ice cream and I came back to my dorm and my roommate was awake going your mother called a million times kept waking me up and so I mean they found ways to keep tabs and you know I'm embarrassed I you know I was just mortified and for the longest time I couldn't tell anybody what it was really like with my parents the nature of my relationship with them um how did you end up breaking free from this in the college environment that you that you went to what would you say was the make break point or you know was there a specific point where you went oh I'm actually done with this now like that happened yes and it was actually the same boy my now husband ah he ice cream man yeah he called one night and heard screaming in the background and it was I think a fight or one of my siblings had done something wrong or something or my parents screaming at each other and he was horrified because he had never heard anything like it before it was pretty bad and it was kind of that wake-up moment of you mean this isn't normal and um just the way he treated me it was completely different from what I'd been used that from the treatment I was used to all my life and about about five weeks later we got married we well we've been dating for a couple years already or sorry courting I'm so sorry we weren't dating there are two completely different things David leads to divorce according to this whole mindset but courting is when you know boys parents talk to girls parents and this kind of this arranged marriage everything is um heavily surveyed I had um I had siblings come with me on on my little dates and everything with him but yeah that our relationship was very heavily controlled how far away from your home were you and you were going to college about a two and a half hour drive so there was some distance but not a great deal of distance so I would you know come home for weekend on weekends and stuff and my boyfriend would come visit sometimes but it was very again very controlled and he had Amin it was all you know asking permission to do this and that we were told we weren't allowed to touch at all not even like hold hands or anything like everything was very very controlled I was gonna ask next about that how did you follow those precepts and rules and I felt like I had to okay yeah didn't always but being out loosey-goosey out in the college environment where you know there are parties happening like every weekend and oh I was I was too good I never went to them oh of course of course you did I'm just wondering how long did it take to break down those barriers for you well after we've been dating for a couple of years it just got to the point where he was like you know what we can't let you stay there like we have to get out and I was like you're right you know I finally got to the point of I can't live like this anymore this isn't right um I had to get out and at that point I mean we were both adults I had a full-time well-paying job in my field of choice and I still wasn't allowed to move out because it was unseemly for a woman to be on her own so you graduated from college mm-hmm and you went back home I had an internship in the area and I was not did not pay anything big peanuts and so the only living situation that I could work out was moving back home for for the duration of that internship and then I was offered a job straight out of that internship um and I thought oh oh finally I can have independence I can be on my own and have my own life no and they're the brainwashing was still so strong on me that even though I had that full-time job and I was an adult and I could have just walked out and signed a lease and been like oh sorry I'm moving out that mental block was still in my head where I couldn't do it all right because it was disobedience it was rebellion and all those horrible words that are just the worst thing you could do I'm sure it must not have helped having to go back into that environment it was one of the worst years of my life for sure did they pick back right back up on the abuse and high control methods and everything else um not so much the physical though there was still some but definitely in a psychological abuse the emotional manipulation and just you know falling back on those same teachings of you can't question us you can't rebel against us because we are the mouthpiece of God how dare you yeah so what happened when you got this job and you finally fully broke away how did you do that there was about a couple months that I was still living back at home and during that time my boy uh he and I decided you know what we're gonna go for it we're just gonna go for it and so we got as close to eloping as we could in McLean County Illinois there was I there was you know a little bit of a waiting period and all that and getting everything together but about five six weeks later we got married and it was courthouse and I didn't want anyone else there but we're still at the point where he didn't want to ruffle too many feathers so it was just us an immediate family and the judge and it was awesome it was it was what we could do at that point with the amount of time we had and the number of resources we had and four minutes ceremony later we were married and I finally had you know me transferred in ownership over to my husband you know what it took for your father to give up the control in a way yeah they they still tried to come trol every once in a while then but I mean I finally got to move out I had my own car I had you know someone else I was supposed to be answering to according to the Bible the new head of the household did they not realize that he wasn't he at all involved in that belief system because your husband's not anywhere near any of us is that right I mean he we were both you know Christian and so that was enough I guess though a year and a half after we were married I was still on speaking terms with my parents then and they were helping us move from one apartment to the other just out of the blue my father goes I don't approve of your marriage I was like this is like a year and a half too late okay it's like because you weren't supposed to ask for my approval I was supposed to give it and so we hadn't crossed off you know checked off the right boxes and followed the right hopscotch you know path around Candyland to satisfy all the requirements for what a truly biblical god-fearing marriage was and so he didn't approve of our marriage and what was the response to that I have her I didn't know what to say because it was just out of the blue I'm like what what am I supposed to do with this information am I supposed to like divorce out of you know just oh I'm so sorry father my leash let me let me get divorced for you and try again you know I don't know that that response would have been so inappropriate according to his way of thinking divorce is evil - but I don't know it was just you know another way for their little psychological you know manipulation to get in and yeah yeah it was about probably another year or so after that that I just cut off communication with my with my parents because they still kept trying to control and browbeat and manipulate even from you know a 400 miles away they it was when I got married I had free access to the Internet and I didn't have to do it use it to study for stuff cuz school was over and somehow I stumbled on these blog posts of people who had grown up similarly to the way I did oh you grown up in the Gotthard eyed way of life um and they were questioning it and it was the first time I'd taken a real hard look at the beliefs I grew up with and thought oh this isn't normal this is pretty twisted okay so even the whole time then that you had been in college and met your husband mmm and had then graduated college gone back home the brainwashing was strong with this one no I get it just trying to make sure I understand yeah I mean I I was starting to wiggle my way out of that mindset a little bit I wanted independence I wanted freedom but I was too scared to have it because of the spiritual ramifications of making the decisions that I wanted for my own happiness it really quite ready to get off why's it no that's a good way to put it I was I was still scared yeah and I mean I would I was scared for a while after as it took probably a year or two of processing really reaching out to other people comparing stories comparing experiences um seeing patterns that was just like you know what this is a destructive cult we need to do something about it okay and I want to I want to highlight that because it highlights the need for people who have been in destructive calls to speak out absolutely and make their voices heard it does matter it does have I've never seen those things you could still be under that influence now oh yeah so it doesn't matter then people speak out and that's it makes a difference it does and I know how what are you doing you know I found I thought about you because you came to the secular hub here in Colorado and you spoke about your experiences and I was fascinated by it because I am you know because I do what I do uh-huh what else do you do or what else have you done or plan on doing to speak about this well what what I have done is you know in reading those blogs you kind of I went on Facebook actually haha and found people yeah found people through it was an ATI the Advanced Training Institute student survivors it was a group for them and some of them were still like oh you know it was nice to grow up this way and some of them were like oh absolutely not but it was nice to plug in with those people because we were all over the world at that point but to be able to share and compare stories and then gradually together as a group come to that conclusion of it this needs to be stopped that the website recovering grace came out and that became a platform for many many many people to come and talk about their stories and reach out to other people and get the name out there for you know interested families who are googling Bill Gothard to say oh maybe I should go to the seminar maybe I shouldn't maybe I should join this homeschooling group maybe you know what's going on here our stories pop up and eventually I think it was about 30 ish stories of sexual harassment at various training centers and and such that came out directly involving Bill Gothard he had to step down really yes so there is a sort of a happier ending to this thing ish I mean the progress yes in progress he stepped down he's still up to his old tricks he's starting to cook up something else a new organization a new something I don't know hopefully there's a like whack-a-mole that way yeah but he had to step down and I'm a it took it took a few years when we first got the website up and running I mean I I was part of that group that got that running a little bit you know um it wasn't one of the people who oversaw everything and edited and all that but I did submit my story and so that was my first time of really talking about what home life was like living under his teachings what it was like to grow up the oldest daughter in a quiver full household um his first Bill Gothard first response was oh there are all these people that set up this website and they're talking about me they're all addicted to porn and rock music which is the two worst things you could possibly ever listen to or look at or whatever and so he tried to dismiss it he sent out like he sends out newsletters every once in a while to all the families that are involved and that was part of his newsletter that he sent out and we were kind of pissed but we also kind of left it's like this language sounds so familiar this is the best you could up with do you know really um but all you can't stop the stories you can't and more came rolling out more and more unfortunately most passed you know that statute of limitations but they're out there you google him you find all these stories and now I believe that if this is still very new but I believe that the Institute of basic life principles is getting sued for negligence something like that there's a lot of different types of mistreatment that happened at their various training centers they had kid they had like miners and isolation chambers and stuff like that for days on end because you know some infraction of the rules and everything and I mean I've spent some time in the training centers and it was mostly I've they're actually so my best memories of being involved because I made a lot of friends that way so I was kind of a Wallflower I didn't make waves I didn't misbehave so I didn't get stuck in isolation ha ha ha I salute in rooms and had nothing but the Bible read all day and all that have to make public apologies to everybody in the building that kind of thing technologies for one they always had like announcements in the mornings and so like anytime I remember like one kid I think he he as a joke went up after breakfast to the microphone and said in any announcements all right you're dismissed but he wasn't the one who was supposed to do that so they stuck him in one of those rooms and maeda and when he was allowed back out yet to apologize again at the same announcement time I think right but it's little things like that it's you know you think oh it's a harmless prank no no it messes with the system right what advice would you give for anybody who sees this who has been involved in either quiver full or Bill Gothard Dogma or anything similar that would that would help them with you what message do you think would help them to get free of this I mean the thing that helped me most was looking up information about this organization and not just their information which you know they've got a lot out there look at it really look at it but there's a bunch of red flags in there and then look at the people's stories because there are people who've gone through the entire program and it's not what it promises we're not all the bright-eyed beacons of light that Bill Gothard promised we would be you're kidding yeah he said over what it promises I know all right it's not really a new way of life compared to other other groups it's it's the same the same thing just dressed up a little bit different thank you very much it was my pleasure thank you for having me no this is this was good thank you you

Channel: Chris Shelton

Views: 1,582,668

Rating: 4.5601273 out of 5

Keywords: Bill Gothard, Michael Pearl (Person), Quiverfull (Religion), Cult (Quotation Subject), Religion (TV Genre), 19 Kids And Counting (TV Program), josh duggar, Jim Bob Duggar (Politician)

Id: 9WQy4LGUQRg

Length: 67min 8sec (4028 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 25 2015

Reddit Comments

[u/kam2055]

I’m so glad she was able to get an education and get away. And anyone also interested in Scientology should check out the interviewer’s channel. He talks in-depth about growing up and working in the Sea Org.

[u/PhoenixDogsWifey]

I have so many questions... I need an anthropologist, sociologist, psychologist and, neurologist who specializes in this area to ask a thousand 'whys'

[u/Katyafan]

This woman is freaking awesome!

[u/WrinkleFairy]

It's a great interview, but I remember the interviewer being so annoying with his "interesting, fascitating!!!" remarks...

[u/coconutville]

Such an interesting interview! It’s interesting we always look at cults and the like as people needing a place to belong - I hadn’t thought about the side of people needing to find a philosophy that allows them to have control over others, aside from the person at the top of course