Groves Trial Day 3 - Dr Susan Brown - Medical Examiner

please be see on the record 19 CR 5 8 6 a and B state of Ohio vs. Daniel groves and state of Ohio versus Jessica groves we were on the state's next segment call their next witness state would call dr. Susan Brown can you make war thank you your honor ma'am if you would please introduce yourself to the jury and spell your last name for our record Susan brown BR o WN where are you employed I'm a forensic pathologist I'm employed at the Montgomery County coroner's office in Dayton Ohio you would please explain to the members of the jury which our educational background is I have a biology degree a bachelor's in biology from the University of Cincinnati and then went on to medical school at Ohio University in Athens did a residency in pathology in Muncie Indiana at ball Memorial Hospital and then did additional training in forensic pathology at the Montgomery County coroner's office in Dayton where I'm currently employed and if you would tell the members of the jury what certifications or certifications is or licenses you hold well I have a license to practice medicine in the state of Ohio and I'm board certified in anatomic pathology clinical pathology shiemanto pathology and forensic pathology through the American Board of pathology and you said you've been at the Montgomery County coroner's office how long 12 years 12 years okay if the defense wishes I'll go into all of her publications and her listen we could be here for a minute correct your honor we've had the opportunity to review her CBE in this matter and we would stipulate to find the doctor at Brown is an expert in the field of forensic pathology once again ladies and gentlemen the jury that means she is allowed to offer her opinion testimony in her field may continue massage thank you your honor doctor if you would before we get to the facts of this case explain to the jury what the coroner's office does so as a forensic pathologist I perform autopsies to determine cause and manner of death and how is it that you or the coroner's office I guess I should say receives referrals or evidence and and so forth into your office so in in Montgomery County we have outside counties that will contract our services to perform autopsies for them and Scioto County is one of them so your corner here dr. Adams contracts with us to put them autopsies for your County and when he has determined that an autopsy is necessary on someone from Scioto County he calls us to let us know that he has an autopsy that he would like for us to perform as well as other counties yes do you know approximately how many counties Montgomery County numerous numerous okay all right once the corner delivers to you a body that they believe needs an autopsy what do you guys do so we start by taking some photographs and documenting how the body looks as we have received the body and then proceed on to take additional photographs after we have removed you know clothing and medical type equipment to further document any kind of natural disease or injury and then next step is removing body organs to look for the same types of things natural disease or injury is all along the way taking notes and taking photographs with the body how do we we do log anything in as evidence and we will hold it in our facility until an investigating agency the police will either pick up the evidence or proceed on with the evidence in the way that they they feel they need to to further their investigation through you know maybe a crime lab okay and are there documents that note or chart everything that comes into the office there and everything that you do while you're in the office working yes okay so you would have an evidence sheet that demonstrates all the evidence that would have come in with the body yes okay and then what type of documents do you prepare in regards to the autopsy itself so I takes notes while I'm performing the autopsy and then from those notes dictate and prepare an autopsy report okay and you also use toxicology lab there at Montgomery County coroner's office yes under what circumstances we perform toxicology under almost for almost all autopsies that we do okay we we have an evidence we have an evidence room at the coroner's office okay is that a secured location yes okay how do you gain access to that area there are only a couple of people who have access to the area and those few people who are employed at the coroner's office will gain access when law enforcement comes and picks up the evidence and then we will maintain a chain of custody to show who came picked up evidence let me direct your attention to June 2019 did you have an opportunity to assist in the investigation or actually to perform an autopsy on the body of baby Dylan gross yes okay how did you become involved in that case it is just random really so on that day this is the autopsy that you know I just randomly was selected to do okay so the assignments in your office are random assignments just random okay let me give you what's been market state's exhibit 36 do you recognize that document yes how so this is the autopsy report that I prepared okay and included with the autopsy report is also a toxicology report yes and then also an evidence log or inventory see evidence that was that we submitted to the toxicology lab and it's not a true and accurate representation of the services performed there at the Montgomery County coroner's office in reference to baby Dylan's body yes let me ask you dr. Brown to explain to the jury what you received and how you package so we received Dylan's body in milk - milk crates that were together the open end put together so open end to open end and these milk crates were secured together by a chain with multiple padlocks metal wires and zip ties me handy what's been marked as state's exhibit 37 through 44 for identification doctor you could take a look through those photographs and advise the jury to recognize yes these are the photographs that we took during the autopsy doctor if you would explain to the members of the so this is what I was describing these two two milk crates that are secured together with a thick chain which is woven in through these handles to hold these two milk crates secured together and then the chain is further secured by padlocks and the other ends of the milk crates secured by metal wires and zip ties judge if you would give her the laser pointer so that she can identify what she's speaking about the jury okay so here we have you know the top of each milk crate which would be open-ended and then the bottoms and then they are put together with this thick chain and multiple padlocks and zip ties and metal wires okay and from your report did you document how many zip ties padlocks and metal wires were there yes so there are three padlocks there are twelve zip ties and there are eight metal wires thirty-eight so now we're looking at the opposite end of these milk crates and you can see then that this metal chain is going around this entire structure and you also are able to see a little bit of what is inside of these milk crates and these are very large rocks and so then this is the opposite side of the structure so we're just kind of going all the way around is if you're able to walk around the whole thing and look and so also then on this side the same type setup with the chain and and padlocks and so now we've completed the circle here with the other the opposite end and again the chain and you can see a little bit as to what is contained inside which is you know another structure here in addition to multiple eighteen large rocks so this gives you a closer look at what I'm describing to you said that you can see here are multiple zip ties and these metal wires that I've been describing another wire here we have the chain padlock in a zip tie so in order to see what is inside of this structure we proceeded to open the top by cutting the portion of the milk crates and sort of opening it up and so that's what we're doing here in this picture so that you can see that there is this structure here which contains Dylan's body also these large rocks and then in addition to that there is this iron anchor type device that is over the top of his body and you remove that whole package out of the milk crates yes okay you continue to take photographs step-by-step of what you're seeing there yes why do you do that to demonstrate the extent to which his body is concealed this time I would ask the witness to identify students about 46 through 55 [Music] I'm if you could glance through photos and invite the jury if you recognize those photographs yes these are the photographs taken during the autopsy and these photos are all true an accurate representation of what took place there in your office that you're performing this autopsy yes let me ask you about so here we have removed all of the contents of these milk crates and so what we have here is on end we are looking down on the top of Dylan who is wrapped in multiple layers of plastic and around all of this plastic is this iron anchor type device and so now we have just put it the whole thing on the other side so that you can see just from another angle we have now taken the anchor off and so now we have numerous layers of plastic and duct tape wrapped around his body yes over the top of plastic so now we begin to open this plastic and we do this kind of layer by layer and find six different plastic items that are wrapped around his body and secured with duct tape and and the next one wraps around his body and secured with duct tape over and over and over again and so in these photographs we have cut each layer layer by layer we have cut this open and begun to unwrap the structure basically and so now we're down another layer which is different a different type of plastic with additional duct tape and we're down to another layer of the same thing over and over and over again it's not and we're down to now another layer of plastic and duct tape there is debris and everything is wet another layer of plastic so now we are down to a blanket so this right here is a blanket there was another blanket which was right here and so now we are down to Dylan's body and just the way that we have happened to open all of this plastic what we're looking at is the back of his head and his back so here's his head okay and it's the back of his head here's his back this is his left arm his right arm will be over here and his feet will be down here we just can't see them yet before we move on doctor did you always that package before you start taking it apart do you recall I believe that we did I don't recall what the weight of everything was but I believe that we did okay all right so if you would tell the members of the jury how you proceed through the examination before we move on to the photograph um so we continue to you know take pictures every step of the way and basically now we're we're going to remove his body from this structure and examine his body I fight hurts the witness the state's exhibits 56 through 60 [Applause] after if you gonna take up links 356 through 60 and advise the jury of recognizing photographs yes additional pictures taken during the autopsy so so now we're looking we have flipped him over and so now we're looking at at Dylan and his his face hit the top of his head is very darkened although his face is still normal tan white color he is in a sleeper and his he has on a sleeper onesie and socks as well as a disposable diaper and everything is soaking wet if you would explain to the members of the jury what baby Dylan weighs at the time that you get his body this race was he weighs 2,000 126 grams which is about four and a half pounds and how long was he 20 and a half inches long exhibit 57 so now we have flipped his body over and you can see the back of his head again the back of his head you know going down to his neck area here is very darkened and then the rest of his body again with wet clothing so now we have undressed him so that we can evaluate for injury or natural disease and size of natural disease and so here we can see there is an area on the right side of his chest that is red it's a bruise okay the right part of his abdomen is a little greyish greenish discoloration which you can see when a body begins to decompose or break down just after a period of being deceased he also has a red area on his left leg which is a bruise and a laceration or a break of the skin on his left arm so this is a closer look at his face this is our identification photograph and again you can see this very well kind of demarcated you could almost draw line where you have all of this darkening of his scalp leading to right above the eyes and he will and here is his back at the back of his head again his scalp area very darkened in color and then the right side of his chest is red with bruising and left leg is red with a bruise as your autopsy progresses you eventually look inside the body at least some of the things you've seen outside and then identify things inside that you can't see from the outside is that right that's right okay the handy state's exhibit 61 you take a look at these photos and advise the jury if you recognize this photograph yes done there as you're doing the autopsy yes that's right so this is his left arm suggest for orientation his head is here this is his left arm his left hand and this is the laceration or the tear of the skin of his left arm so this shows you a closer look at his left arm and what I have done is I opened his left arm so that I could demonstrate the fracture of the left arm so this is near that area where it is it is lacerated or torn the skin and beneath that Eric's first second that the record will reflect that the witness has pointed to her upper arm I started go ahead so beneath this area is a fracture of his humerus which is just the bone of the left arm and here is the bone which is fractured and that's a complete fracture yes okay so now we're looking further down on his left arm that said this is going to be his left forearm area that his hand his left hand is here his left shoulder would be up here and his left forearm is also fracture do you have two bones in the left forearm the radius and the ulna of both bones of the left forearm are also fractured doctor before we move on let me hand you what's the marked estates exhibit 72 perimeter do you recognize that photograph yes this is an x-ray that we took doing the autopsy yes on the x-ray for the jury so here we have his head this is the right side of the body this is the left side of the body and this is the left arm with the fracture of the left humerus or the upper arm bone and then here is a fracture of the left radius and ulna the bones of the left forearm the doctor is that accurate to say that those lower fractures are also complete fractures yes you would explain to the jury so this is his left leg the left knee and his foot would be down here and so I have made this opening right here so that I can look at the bone inside surrounding this area it is red because it is bruised so here we can see the bone of the left leg this is his left tibia or your shin bone and it is fractured yes [Music] so we are getting ready to open his chest and abdomen area to examine his his body organs and here we are looking at the skin from the right side of his chest and this area right here all of this red area is bruising of the right side of his chest so now we have already removed the organs from his body cavities chest and abdomen and now we're looking at his rib cage okay so that so his head would be up here his feet down here and the this is his spine running down the middle of his body and these are his left ribs and you can see that the ribs are nice straight smooth booze in here we have on rib sex a large nodular area which is a large callus from a an old healing fracture and the same thing on ribs 7 next to it a large nodular area which is a healing old fracture left ribs 6 and 7 doctor in your opinion would these fractures have occurred at the same time the fractures that we just looked at of heard no before we move on let me show you what Marcus yes so this is another x-ray taken during the autopsy of his lower body yeah so it's an x-ray of his lower body his head would be here this is the right side of the body the left side this tag here indicates to you that that's the left side of his body his left arm you see the lower arm here which is the fractures of his left forearm those two bones of the left forearm and then here we have the left leg and here is the fracture of that left tibia or that shin bone of his left leg and you said these fractures would not have occurred at the same time as the rib fractures we just looked at no there's no signs of healing okay so that calcification you were just speaking of doesn't you don't see that here correct what explain to the members of the jury your internal examination of the baby's organs and what's there and what's not so the organs are decomposed just a normal process that should go through after death and so they kind the organs will sort of lose some of their weight lose some of their integrity so for example his brain when I examine his brain instead of it being a nice firm structure where you can evaluate all of the structures within the brain it was a liquid what about the other organs in his body his heart his lungs they while I did not find any evidence of any natural disease or injury they were decomposing same way the brain was okay explain to the jury what sources you use referred to toxicology so under normal circumstances you would want to use blood as your number one source that you would use to send something for toxicology to see what types of substances drugs basically are in the person's body and then you know blood and urine would be your top choices but due to decomposition I didn't have any blood for Dylan I didn't have any urine to use and so for his toxicology we had to use liver so you would take a sample from the liver and forward that onto your toxicology Department that's right okay let me handy what's the marked estates exhibit 68 through 71 and ask doctor do you recognize the fitness I've just handed yes is there additional autopsy photographs these are showing his skull with fractures so we have reflected his Scout away from the bone of his head his skull so we were looking down on top of the top of his head the bone and this is the right side this is the left side in here we have a fracture on the right parietal skull and here we have a fracture of the left parietal skull so they're both on top of his head what is the size of each of those fractures the right side is about two inches I believe in the left approximately 1 1 inch yeah okay if you would explain to the members of the jury any other significance that you see in the difference if there is a difference in these two injuries so the fracture on the right side this longer fracture here between the two pieces of bone that are fractured there is some tissue formation showing some signs of healing that is not seen on the fracture on the left side here doctor explain what we're seeing here in state's exhibit 69 so this is the same thing just a closer look at the top of his head this is the right side of the skull and this is the fracture of the right side and this is the one that has some some tissue formation between those two pieces of fractured bone showing some healing this is a closer look at the fracture of the left side of the head that did not show any signs of healing would it be your opinion doctor that these fractures did not occur at the same time yes so you know normally of them bone is fractured the two pieces are going to be loose and not connected anymore the way they should be normally and then as your body begins to help you and start to do some repair work the ends will begin to be connected by some tissue and that's what's happening with this fracture on the right side here dr. P would so we have removed the piece of boon from the upper part of the skull now and we're looking on the inside of the skull and so normally what you would see would be the structure of his brain but due to decomposition changes instead of seeing this nice well-constructed construction of his brain its liquefied and so it is really this liquid that is in here and the liquid would normally be a tan white color because that's the color of your brain and the liquid is pink what does that indicate to you doctor I believe that blood was mixed in making it a pink color dr. Brown is a brain bleed consistent with skull fractures of this nature it can be yes okay and you said most of the organs are decomposing yes were you are you able to say from examining the baby's bones whether or not you would would have been alive or deceased at the time that he was placed in the well no not not from examining the lungs so drowning is a diagnosis of exclusion so you really would need to exclude everything else in order to come to the conclusion of drowning and I can't exclude everything else because I have numerous injuries doctor if you would explain to the members of the jury what you believe to be the cause of death and why you believe that his cause of death is homicidal violence of undetermined ideology which basically means that all of the information that I have from scene investigation from the autopsy from the toxicology report everything all points to this being a homicide but the specific cause of death can't be determined because a typical exam should not be performed because his body was decomposing from being concealed and in water for months when you say the typical of the themes could not be performed and therefore you call the death the Saito violence by unknown etiology does that mean normally you would say homicidal violence or gunshot wound or stab wound or force trauma yeah okay mm-hmm so are you saying to the jury that you just can't say exactly how this was cause that's right what limit what method or mechanism caused it that's really okay do you consider these injuries blunt force trauma or trauma yes okay we can do what's been marked as state's exhibit 40 the Indian recognized dates exhibit 45 yes okay and how so another picture that we took during the autopsy we find there on the screen yes he would explain to the members of the jury the purpose and significance of States exhibit 45 we took this picture to demonstrate everything that was contained in these milk crates so at the far right of the screen here we have the milk crates and then on the left side all of the rocks the anchor and all of the plastic and duct tape that had been contained surrounding Dylan's body inside of the milk crates and this all of this play a part in your opinion of this case yes okay explain that to the jury this was a lot of work large extent to go through in order to conceal this child's body so that it would not be found okay let me take you back for a second to states exhibit 67 you identified as the rhythm page and some fractures with this complication there that right yes okay is it is it your opinion that these injuries will cause well baby Dylan was alive or dead a lot why is that because if they show signs of healing that's the way that those those calcifications are made your body's reacting to it so it's a process that has to happen while you're alive 69 this is the skull fracture on the right side if it your opinion that baby Dylan was alive or deceased when that injury occurred also showing signs of healing so he was alive the remaining fractures the left side of the skull okay and then the fractures to his arm and leg is that your opinion that baby Dylan was alive or deceased when those fractures occurred well by just looking at the fracture itself there are no signs of healing so those fractures would either have to be made after death or at the time of death so right at the time of death so that his body would not have had enough time to begin a repair process of these fractures so the fractures you're saying either he was deceased when they had heard or they occurred and he died so quickly then the body could not react correct what type of reaction to use in a fracture if there's time for healing well you begin by seeing blood and then microscopically you can see inflammatory cells and then you know something called granulation tissue so basically tissue starting to form in this area to help with the repair process and you mentioned earlier dr. Brown that there was bruising to his part of his arm and part of his leg bruising to his left leg a laceration of his left arm okay I'm sorry bruising to his leg and his rib cage yes okay does that breathing indicate anything to you well it's likely due to blunt force trauma okay and then the what actually causes the breeze blood vessels are broken and so instead of your blood being contained inside of your blood vessel it's blood is escaping out into your tissue I think you mentioned earlier that you use a portion of baby Dylan's liver to forward on to toxicology that's right explain to the members of the jury what results you receive from your toxicology lab we found methamphetamine and amphetamine in his liver do you make efforts to determine what the source of that could be you can't tell by looking at the toxicology results how the substance came to be within his body okay did you review any records to try to eliminate possibilities of ingestion medical records yes okay explain to the jury what you reviewed and what you were able to eliminate I reviewed birth records and records from two pediatrician basically well-baby checks and there was never any indication that he was ever prescribed any kind of medication or sip okay was there any indication whether or not he was breastfed her bottle-fed the records indicate that he was not breastfed that he was bottle-fed okay so he could not have obtained those substances through breast milk correct correct before I do that Your Honor may we approach the bench when he resisted the jury here just a moment the prosecutor is going to discuss with the witness state's exhibit 74 my understanding are the crates that were shown in the earlier pictures the remaining items from the coroner's office because of their condition the body matter that was on those items in the current motor associated with these items the lawyers have agreed to substitute photographs and mu of those items will have a benefit of photographs but you will not have the benefit of the actual items during your deliberations I should say you may continue [Applause] yes I recognize the milk crates that I examined during the autopsy I might have this burgin he would tell members of the jury what your opinion is as the cause of death to a reasonable reasonable degree of medical certainty homicidal violence of undetermined biology dr. Brown just have a few questions for you could you repeat for the jury you took Dylan grosses weights and measured them at the autopsy could you repeat again what that weight was and his lane mm-hmm so it was 2,000 126 grams or that is about four and a half pounds and he was 20 and a half inches okay thank you also we saw pictures earlier of his head it was black yes is that bruising so I could not determine whether that darkened area on his scalp was due to bruising from blood or due to decomposition changes okay thank you so much and again there was three killing wounds the ribs six and seven Craig's yes and the 2-inch skull fracture on the right side correct correct okay the other wounds showed no signs of healing correct they weren't caused by going down the well were they I don't believe that they were caused by going into the well due to the numerous layers and layers of duct tape and plastic that had him somewhat cocooned into this structure and the lack of any type of tearing of the plastic or his sleeper so his injuries again occurred either shortly before death or at death correct yes okay again homicidal violence but correct good morning I'm sorry I left so we're talking about several distinct areas of injury is that correct yes on to the child's body correct yes there are two areas that did show some signs of healing correct yes one being a skull fracture yes and there was two ribs that were injured correct correct okay the we'll just take them one at a time the rib fractures are you able to estimate how long prior to you viewing the body or how long prior to his death those were injured so in terms of just being able to give you a number it really is not that precise everybody is a little bit different in their healing process so no I can't give you an exact time do you know if can you narrow it down in regards to days or weeks I wouldn't be able to narrow it down any further than yes it would have to be days days to weeks days to weeks okay and the type of injury to his chest were you able to tell how it would have appeared when it was injured would it have had some type of bruising or some type of outward signs to indicate there was that injury to the inside of the body well it's possible there was bruising you know but without being able you know to examine him at that time I can't tell you positively but it's possible there was bruising on the outside possible there was bruising mm-hmm but there may not have been any bruising or swelling well I don't know but yes there's possibility that there would have been bruising what about swelling that's possible but there's also a possibility that there was not any swelling sure okay so there may not have any outward signs on the on the skin outward skin that would indicate that there were ribs that were fractured underneath of it correct the outward sign would have been his behavior but possibly crying from pain rib fractures are painful because they're going to hurt every time you breathe whenever you breathe your chest cavity moves in and out and that's gonna hurt but at some point in time that pain would start to subside correct yes okay and once again there may not have been any outward signs of that type of trauma correct on skin thank you in regards to that fracture that had begun to heal on the top of his skull and I believe it's on the right side correct correct okay did that indicate that there was any type of crushing injury to the skull well it's some kind of blunt force trauma right could have been caused by a fall hitting his either an object or something hitting his head or his head hitting an object of some sort so whether something's either landed on him or he landed on something that's what caused that injury correct yes some kind of blunt force trauma okay and that could have been the result of an accident I don't I don't know how it was how about you can't say but I'm just saying it's possible that it was caused by an accident I know we're open to all realms of possibility here sure you do not have any definitive evidence any source of information that would tell you one way or the other whether it was an accident or there was intentional correct correct okay we did hear from his pediatrician yesterday dr. Hudson and he indicated that sometimes with skull fractures there are signs of bruising and swelling and sometimes there's not would you hold that same opinion sure okay so even with this type of injury whether something blamed it on him or he landed on something else there may not have been any outward signs of that type of trauma correct this the same answer basically yes other than maybe behavior the baby would probably not be acting normally okay and he could have been crying yes but at some point time that would have subsisted and the healing process began correct sure okay and that could have occurred in as little as a few days correct yes okay thank you in regards to the other injuries I believe that you've already stated now on at least two occasions those injuries either occurred at the time of death simultaneously to death shortly before to death because your conclusion is that they showed no signs of healing correct right okay is there anything to indicate or is there anything that you're able to draw any conclusion from that those injuries would have occurred from more than one person causing them I can't say by looking at the injuries okay thank you and it is not in your necessarily your job description to ascertain who caused those injuries correct correct just that they were caused correct yes when they were called correct yes and that they may be the source of this child's death correct yes and I do believe that it is also your conclusion that you do not have an opinion that this child was alive at the time it was placed in those crates and put down the whoa correct yes again that speaks to drowning in gazzarri that speaks to drowning drowning as a diagnosis of exclusion so I cannot tell you that he drowned that's why I just want to make sure yeah clear that it is not your opinion that he was alive and he drowned when going into the well correct correct it would be your opinion that he was no longer breathing and did not take any water in which would have caused him to drown as a result going in that well correct correct okay over what period of time if you're able to say what a Gru's be created like the brews that you talked about a baby Dylan's head from his brow Ridge to the back of his skull do you know what time period it would take to form such a bruise well you can't date a bruise by looking at me there is not an accurate way to date a bruise by looking at the color changes that you see on a bruise okay so that bruise could have occurred for that work that blood pooling in that area and could have occurred very close to his time of death correct that's possible okay it did not necessarily occur over a period of hours or days or weeks I can't tell you how long the Brutus was there okay but I'm just saying there's no testimony that you can give in regards to that period of time correct correct okay thank you also in regards to that bruising that was associated with his right chest injury would that be the same conclusion you would draw as well yes I can't date the bruise or how long it took to appear correct correct also in regards to the bruising on the leg associated with that leg break is that also your same testimony yes there's no time frame that you can put on that appearance correct correct you're in your direct examination you testified that when brain matter typically liquefies in the decomposition process it would be grey or green correct yes and in this matter it was pink correct yes and you believe that that pink was caused by blood threats but I also believe that you said that there may be other reasons for it to be pink or did I misunderstand you that that wasn't the only reason for it to be pink no I didn't say that okay but that's why I wonder clarify that would be your reasoning for it to be pink yes and that would be associated with that darkening of the scalp that we saw what's possible again potentially from the skull fracture with salt towards the back of the head on the left side correct yes and those are all things that you cannot date as to the spreading of that bruise the causation of that bruise or when that blood appeared correct close in time to his death with the bruise no okay did any of the items that were inside the crate which way so I believe that you said there were approximately 18 stones located in there is that correct yes in that iron object that's correct yes where any of those calls of these fractures I don't know okay you're not able to say no it's due to blunt force trauma of some kind but I'm not able to say and you're not actually able to say if they were caused prior to or after going into the well but it's your belief that they were caused not as a result of going into the well which injuries the arm fractures and the leg fracture in the chest fracture that was not healing and the skull fracture that was not healing so I I can't specifically date those because there are no signs of healing my opinion is that they likely happened at the time of death and likely not due to after death being dropped into the well also in regards to the toxicology you do not know the source of the [Music] drugs that were found in the liver correct correct you were able to rule out that he was given any medication that would be associated with those tests correct yes but you're also not able to draw any conclusion from the information that you received if he adjusted those by means of someone administering those to him you're not able to say who did that correct I'm not able to say who did it he certainly didn't do it yes I'm not I'm not able to say who did it at that age he's not probably putting things on his own accord into his own mouth without assistance but you would not be able to say if that was assisted by an adult or one of his parents you're not able to say who did that correct correct okay are you able to say when those would have been ingested No when a body is decomposing does it often moves masse yes it can so the weight that you determined his body to be in which is slightly over four pounds mm-hmm would that be a typical in a situation where a body closed and that time was weighed when he was alive that he would weigh less after he decomposed for a portion of time it's certainly possible to lose weight because your organs are losing some some weight so yes it's certainly possible to lose weight so the weight is it necessarily accounted to any type of intentional act or abuse on behalf of the caregiver it could be accounted for through the decomposition process I don't know what he weighed at the time of his death but you could certainly lose weight during decomposition okay thank you in regards to your autopsy report do you still have that do you have that I have Yulin oh you have your personal he and you what was Marcus state disease about number 36 you did an overall exam of Dylan's body correct yes okay and the outward appearance of his body did you perform an acute performed an external examination and you have that as part of your report is that correct yes okay on what would I believe your page three worked at the bottom if you could turn to that section please but able to turn external examination do you have that page yes could you read that first line for me there the body is that is that is that the long dat felyne I've had the body is that of a well-developed well nourished white male infant who he has a weight of one thousand two hundred and twenty-six grams it crowned the heel length of 20 and a half inches a crown to rump length of 14 inches a head circumference of 15 and a half inches a chest circumference of fourteen inches in abdominal circumference of fourteen inches and a foot length of three inches thank you so your external examination of this body other than me fractures that you uncovered in the bruising that you uncovered he was a well-developed well nourished white male infant correct throat your honor if I could have just do you have any knowledge or as heavier education or experience are you able to date how fast an infant grows you probably would probably a pediatrician would be better suited to answer that question okay if I guess I was just that do you know how long he would be like how what is there any type of rough guideline well there are both two charts scientific certainty so that issue was at stake nucleation Your Honor I believe that she testified that she is trained in anatomy program so unless you can lay a foundation that kind of thing may I have an opportunity to try and lay that foundation okay thank you are you have you studied the field of anatomy I'm sorry have you studied the field of anatomy yes okay have you studied or had any education or training in how bones grow and their ability to grow and how how how they grow what causes them to grow or not to grow through lack of better words I am medical school yes okay in your duties as a quarter do you take into consideration length weight other measurements in regards to bone length and in what length they are whenever you're examining in a body not bone length but certainly we're weighing and measuring each person that comes through the coroner's office but it isn't something that you know we would do on a regular basis as a pediatrician would every time you see a child come in in you're tracking this one child and can follow his or her growth and development so that isn't really something that we're doing at the coroner's office if you had a measurement of this child in February of 2009 if you had a measurement a length measurement of this child and February of 2019 and knowing the length of the baby's body when you received him into your office could you tell if the baby had grown and how possibly when his life would have ended it he stopped growing from that previous measurement to your measurement no okay I mean I appreciate your answer okay your honor if I could have just a moment thank you Miss Scott and you redirect Parker you were asked cross-examination about the substances that were detected in toxicology is that your medical opinion that those substances could have been detected in his liver and could have stayed there from birth no not that long so anytime you whatever way you ingest something your body will break down that substance any kind of a drug I mean a drug you're getting from your doctor or you know your body will break down that substance until eventually the substance is gone and so it wouldn't still be in his system from birth so he would have had to have been exposed at some other time yes not in utero for this to show up in his liver yes okay you were asked about and I'm not sure it was I clear but rocks causing these injuries and you said yes do you mean rocks cause these injuries as it went into the well or you could use a rock to call these injuries I meant that you could use a rock to cause these injuries so someone bashed that baby Dylan in the head with one of these rocks that would result in the skull fracture possibly yes you were asked about skull fractures being accidental and I think you already said a two month old baby could not cause have an accident himself that would result in these fractures is that right you would have to present the scenario to me another word buddy he's not lazy yes or play yes okay do the types of fractures or the fact that he has fractures to his ribs at two-month-old indicate anything to you he has been subjected to some kind of trauma okay are there fractures that you would say are typical and child abuse situations that you see more commonly than others well there shouldn't ever be any types of fractures but certainly is you know kids get older and become toddlers then they would be in a situation where you know much more likely to have an accidental fracture of some kind but a two-month-old does not fall into that category okay and you were sort of isolating injuries but the rib fracture he said those fractures occurred you can't date them but can you say whether or not they would have occurred first or last based on the signs of healing compared to all of the other fractures they would have occurred first just due to just based on signs of healing okay and then what would have occurred neck the other fracture that he has that shows any signs of healing at all which is the right skull fracture the two inch fracture yes okay and then lastly would be the remaining fractures of the arm leg and fall the one-inch fracture that's right so are you telling this jury it is your opinion that before at least three different incidents yes you were asked about drowning can you exclude drowning based on what your examination I can't exclude drowning but I can't include it either because it you don't have a specific sign there is not a specific pathognomonic sign that somebody has when they drowned so if if you receive the body and there were none of these other injuries fractures and bruising could you've it would you then say that he had probably drowned it certainly would be more possible that he had drowned yes okay so what you're telling us you're in here is you can't say either way yes but what you do have evidence of is all of this homicidal violence yes I have nothing further your honor [Music] dr. Brown not to beat a dead horse here but I just want to ask you a question about this dr. Hudson who is Dylan's pediatrician testified earlier that on two seven that he weighed 7 pounds 2 ounces and that he was 19 and a half inches long then on February 21st he said Dylan was 7 pounds 15 ounces 20.3 inches long the date of your autopsy is with a June 13 June 13 you said he weighed 4 pounds 8 ounces cracked yes and you said he was 20.5 inches long correct yes would you be surprised if his day to death is March 28th based above mr. shredder again dr. Brown you said all 612 he weighed four pounds eight ounces and was twenty point five inches long crack yes that's where we were uh-huh in that dr. Hudson had testified on that on the 221 that he weighed 7 pounds 15 ounces and 20 point three inches long would that be consistent would you be surprised that the date of death was closer to 221 for closer to 612 I can't use his weight to determine his date of death what about his length I can't use I can't use his length either to determine the date of his death dr. Brown it is not your opinion here today the baby Dylan dreamt is that correct correct okay you do not have the opinion that the baby was alive prior to being placed in that water do you I do not thank you the other questions miss guy no questions thank you this witness excused yes doctor thank you for your time you're free to go gentlemen the good time to take our lunch recess remember my earlier admonition to you do not discuss this case amongst yourselves or discussing with anyone else do not permit anyone to discuss it with you or in your presence it is your duty not to form or express an opinion on this case until it's finally submitted to you I'm gonna have you be back in the jury room go on and the plan oh I'm starting at 10:00 to 1:00 or as close to that as we can perfect this

Channel: Law&Crime Network

Views: 517,852

Keywords: Groves Trial, Dylan Groves, Daniel Groves, Jessica Groves

Id: TVmVAVuA-qs

Length: 91min 52sec (5512 seconds)

Published: Thu Jan 09 2020