Greta Thunberg interview: world on climate precipice but activism offers hope

what is the thinking behind this book what are you hoping it will achieve um I hope that this book can be both a kind of go-to source for getting information about the climate crisis and what to do next but I also hope that it's uh going to be some kind of call to action because I believe that once we have the information we need once we fully understand the climate crisis that we will know what to do and then people will want to take action and yet it paints a very Bleak picture of how things are yeah I mean if you were to sum up where you think the world is in terms of climate now what would you say yeah I mean we are we are approaching a precipice um there's no denying that we are in a very urgent state right now we have a very limited time in order to achieve very big changes to avert the worst consequences of the climate crisis people already suffering today and it's going to get much worse we are moving deeper into Uncharted Territory so that's kind of where we are right now but I don't think that uh as you say it it paints up a quite Bleak picture but I think that that is what we need right now I don't think we need uh to sort of soothe people and give them false hope um by painting up some kind of full scenario that we can fix this without having to make any major changes I believe that what is really hopeful right now is to tell it like it is because we can only act if we actually understand the situation and yet you've been telling it like it is with real power for the last couple of years and all the evidence suggests we're still going in the wrong direction the report from the UN just this week suggesting that the target of 1.5 may be dead already uh I mean I don't think it's uh that is the fault of the climate movement uh I think that right now we are very in general people are very unaware of the crisis that is happening even now I mean it's like people know that something is wrong but they don't know really how wrong it is and they don't know exactly what it means and we all know that the plant is warming because of increased anthropogenic greenhouse gases and that may lead to more extreme weather events in the future but we don't really know what that means in terms of human suffering we don't really know what that means in the long run um so and but the worst part is that we don't even understand that we do not understand um of course it's not the the the fault of the climate movement the environmental movement but I just wonder do you tear your hair out in frustration at how you have been talking very vocally across a global stage for a number of years now yeah and yet the statistics show this move in the wrong direction yeah um I mean I'm already I'm only 19 and I don't already feel like a broken record repeating the same message over and over again um but that's unfortunately is the role of activists to continue saying the same things over and over again until people listen until what we are actually saying is being taken into account um into full consideration um even it's if it's very uncomfortable and and of course it it might feel like it's it's hopeless sometimes but we have to keep going either way because giving up is simply not an option I mean one of the depressing things is that timeline you know not that none of this is new it talks about pledges made long before you were born back in 1992 pledges unmet endless conferences cops more new pledges more unmet pledges how do you keep hope um I think that hope is a verb I think that hope is something you do and that you need to earn I don't think that hope is something that we should expect being given to us passively by not doing anything it seems like people are so obsessed with asking is there hope is there hope because otherwise we won't be able to do anything when it's exactly the opposite when we actually do something we will create the hope that we need I mean you look at Say cop you know we're a week away from the next cop climate crisis conference in Egypt last year the one that was hosted here you called it the global North Green washing Festival you know the fact that it's finally being held on the African continent where they are arguably facing the direct consequences of climate change right now sometimes in the most terrible way do you think the fact they're hosting in Egypt means that it will be a better conference means it will achieve more I mean there are many layers to that of course it could be a way for for example the issues of loss of damage funding to to get more attention but also we have to remember that Egypt is a nation which violates many of the basic human rights and they are political prisoners um Etc so there are many layers to that um last year as I say we hosted cop here we made a huge thing about it politically you know there was an awful lot of coverage about it this year our new prime minister has just said he won't be going we'll do makeup I mean of course that's individual decisions like that I'm sure they have a reason um I mean I I don't think we should be focusing too much on individual events like this but of course when we see a pattern that's the most powerful people in the world don't seem to prioritize the climate crisis um as much as they should of course that's a sign that they they have other things they want to do I mean the messaging is important isn't it it is it is and on that messaging the former prime minister Boris Johnson says he is going so we have the current prime minister saying he he won't be going yeah and the former prime minister saying well I will you know this is really important to me he's a huge figure attracts a lot of attention yeah is that valuable is that a positive thing is he making the right decision compared to prime minister sooner I mean I don't know as I said individuals events and decisions like these are maybe Irrelevant in the in the full picture but um we also must remember that as it is now the cops will not really lead to any massive changes they are not really designed to lead to any big changes um I mean last year uh the fossil fuel Lobby had more Representatives than any other Nation so that kind of shows uh how serious we are taking this so just going to cop is maybe not enough to to show that I'm paying attention to this and yeah in a way I suppose cop is the only yeah the governmental show in town if you like it's a it's a it's an important event to mobilize around we're talking about the individuals um the new king first spoke out about his fears for the environment about climate change back in the 60s and he admits that he was viewed in his own words as potty you know do you feel an affinity to King Charles who spoke out about it was regarded as barmy you know was isolated do you feel some affinity for that role that he took um I mean I mean sure uh also again I don't I don't think we should be focusing too much on individual people like these I mean you know the work that he's done would you like to see him go because the messaging carries some weight I I don't know I don't see what like what the Swedish teenager's opinion on British monarch is relevant I suppose whether he's a valuable voice to the to the cause I mean could be definitely I mean one of the things that the book highlights really powerfully is that sort of terrible cycle of pledges made the media's role in that you know lauding the pledges then when they're unmet you say that the media are silent and there's more distraction by new pledges that are again unmet it's a terrible sort of almost like a a conspiracy you argue that this is what creates catastrophe I mean I wouldn't say conspiracy but yet it's a very vicious cycle when maybe not the most uh striking thing about the climate emergency is what is going to happen in the future or what might happen in the future but rather that all that is happening now is happening completely legal and that's hardly anyone is reacting and also when when they're not getting away when they are getting away with it and not being held accountable um that is a very vicious cycle which is a very good recipe for catastrophe I would say and the argument at the moment for example um prime minister Rishi sunak says he's not going because we have a crisis here on our doorstep right now and you'll recognize that across the world the cost of living crisis you know in the UK it's the worst we've seen for decades is that an understandable answer for not going to cop for saying you know there's a crisis right now that I need to solve I mean looking looking away from the aspect of going to cop or not um of course we are facing multiple crises at the same time um that of course need to be dealt with as well but we cannot continue to to focus only on these things at the expense of many many other very very important and Urgent issues that also need our full attention and we need to be able to to have more than one thing um in our heads at the same time it can't be in your view and either or no we have to we need to have a holistic picture when we look a holistic approach when we look at all these crises that we face and solve them together because they are for example the climate crisis is only um a system of a much larger crisis the anthropocene and Etc and we cannot expect to solve one of these crises without also addressing the others I suppose for say for the millions of people in the UK who are really really struggling at the moment they're struggling with the cost of energy they're struggling with the cost of food do you understand why in their minds the climate crisis may feel like something they cannot even cannot even face to think about because they have an emergency on their doorstep right now yes of course um um and unfortunately that's the way we have let it become uh when we have waited so long with addressing the climate emergency uh that we don't really see the connections between different issues and um yeah but we also have to remember that for many others um in countless of other people around the world the climate crisis is their emergency at the doorstep um and By ignoring it we we are making this much much worse much worse for them so you have some sympathy for individuals who may feel this is too big for me right now of course of course but it's for governments to yeah the climate crisis is not something that that can be solved by individuals acting alone and that that in a sense is difficult isn't it because for young people say they they want to feel I have I can play a role in this but the reality uh if I understand you correctly is that you know it's got to be solved at government level it's got to be solved at a global level yeah of course it needs to be all of them on every possible level of course the most important level is a systemic level or structural level but we also cannot expect that to happen without also Civil Society engaging without count as individuals also engaging because you say in the book as well that democracy is the most valuable tool we have despite huge and very valid criticism of governments around the world failing to grasp the seriousness of this crisis I think that's exactly why it's the only tool it's the best tool that we have because as it is right now it seems like the people in power will do whatever they can as long as they can get away with it they will go as far as possible unless they have a massive pressure from the outside and right now they don't have that we are many who are racing our voices for these courses but we are not nearly enough um so if if we can be that pressure then they will have other priorities and they will think twice about the things they do want to move on to the to the issue of activists in a moment but just just for a second just on that response from government if you look for example at the cost of living crisis the Great terrible irony I suppose is that our government is spending billions supporting you know the gas bills you know the paying for gas to help people survive the winter which is arguably in the long term and another another problem in in the long-term crisis yeah definitely uh we we cannot expect to I mean we cannot expect us to to solve the problems we have now by throwing the future under the bus completely um we we need to think holistically and long term and have solutions that work for both both of these crises I mean I know you're not a politician but you know in terms of the energy crisis now do you accept that you know for example helping support people pay their energy bills it's just the necessary evil at this moment or is there other things that you think in the short term the government could do as you say I'm not a politician and I'm not from the UK so I think that's that is something that should be dealt with here but of course um as I said before when we talk about these issues we need to think long term because continued investments in this with either I mean long term become stranded assets or we lock in the level of warming that we will not be able to adapt to and then the consequences that we will have to deal with later on will probably be much worse than what we are suffering now and and that idea in the book of you know these these problems baking in problem more more serious issues down the line yeah yeah and just in terms of um the energy crisis that we see partly because of the war in Ukraine there's a terrible irony there as well in terms of it is it has taken away climate from the top of the the news agenda but at the same time it is it has put real focus on our dependency on oil and particularly gas and actually may bring about some change in the long term yeah I mean it's uh it's of course a horrible tragedy uh with has brought about unspokable sufferings but it's and it is this does really show the dangers of being completely dependent on fossil fuels in these kind of situations but it has put a real focus on that that yeah that's all the campaigning and the and the the arguing it it shows that governments will listen if they are forced to face a particular crisis or an emergency yeah I mean that's also what we saw with the corona pandemic um yeah if if there's an emergency and that is being treated as an emergency we can't act and yeah I mean the covert pandemic is a very very good example isn't it you know governments across the world brought in emergency measures whether they were popular or not because they say we have no choice do you think they could approach them the environment crisis in the same way I mean of course it's difficult to compare because they require so such different measures but I think that with the same level of urgency we need to we need to face all these crisis that we face now you talk in the book about the role of the media we've touched on it a little bit you know the idea that you know they don't push hard enough when these pledges are unmet they Lord and celebrate when pledges are made given that we know the history of pledges can be meaningless um ultimately in the interests of balance you know we often see perhaps people who question the science climate deniers you know this both sideisms how damaging do you think that is I think it's very damaging I do think that it's getting a bit better but we are still very very far away from what where we need to be um I mean before it used to be um people who say that climate change is real versus I mean straight on climate change deniers and now it's it's more like the um the the future of the planet um versus economic growth very often for example this like yeah this mind will be built here it will why well Wipe Out the ecosystems it will um cause damage to to many many things that will not be replaceable and and etc etc versus it will create a hundred new jobs um and then we have to prioritize we have to choose like which side we agree with rather than it should be both at the same time we can have jobs and care for the planet at the same time and that I think that's very damaging when these sites are being put against each other and do you think then that there's an argument that as you say it's a more nuanced debate now it's less very less climate denial against you know the climate Sciences factual but do you think this this idea of of giving both sides air time is wrong I mean what do you mean both sides so it's a more nuanced argument now you don't necessarily have out and out climates it's nice but this binary that they put forward very often is well we either go for a green future like either scientists or lobbyists yeah all the arguments about jobs for example you know well we need this mind because it will create jobs I think that when we need to approach everything with having all the things that we have now in mind um that we cannot think only Jobs versus climate Planet future Humanity or whatever you may call it um I think that we need to have a more nuanced picture as you say and say that we can have all these things but not at the expense of so it's not about banning those voices but perhaps arguing the case better or and not letting lobbyists have as much air time as they have now who only represent Financial interests when we were talking about democracy earlier on you you talked about the importance of activists and you say you know we need billions of climate activists are they out there or are there is the reality that there are too many of us as you say in the book that don't want to give up the comfort of over consumption are we too fundamentally selfish um I would say that there are billions of potential activists out there climate activists and the need for climate activists will not reduce in the future it will only become more and more dire um I think if we treat the climate crisis in the right way as we should if we treat it like an emergency people will understand that that what we are experiencing now is something that requires us to take action is not something that we can continue to postpone delay or distract from but that we are needed right here right now um and also if other people around us take action that will also have snowball effects on us um and affect us as many scientists write in the book that social norms can change and when some people decide to take action many others will follow and the type of action matters presumably as I say in the book you'd say you know non-violent peaceful demonstrations Civil Disobedience that doesn't risk the safety of others you'll know extension rebellion and just stop oil say they're non-violent but there are many people who argue their actions are harmful you know stopping ambulances get to hospital or blocking roads when people need to get to work or destroying artwork is that the type of action that you think is is valuable or counterproductive I mean it's difficult to talk about this because all these actions are so different and all these movements are also so different so it's difficult to generalize but I mean overall I think that people are becoming very very desperate and that's very that's something that we should have been expecting and since we we have never faced anything like this before people are going to try out many many different methods and since nothing else has been working they will try new things uh but that question of what constitutes harm yeah is an important one isn't it yeah and I mean harm as in endangering another individual or harm as in um causing some disturbance or like minor disruptions it's of course a very big scale so stopping an ambulance get to hospital would be at one end of the scale perhaps and that's of course something that we cannot be doing because we cannot harm other people but stopping people to get to work if you hold up a van driver he may lose several hours money that's a harm yeah but would that be acceptable it depends I cannot speak like yeah and doing yourself to artwork a valuable valid way of activism to to draw attention to the cause that's not I mean it's it's not up for me to say because the climate crisis is very Broad and it's not like one person has the right to to say that you're doing the wrong in the wrong thing and so on um yeah but I do also think that we need to realize what kind of privilege we have when the only way we are not the only but the the most significant way we we are approach to the climate and to the climate's emergency is by someone blocking a road that that level of disruption compared to what people are young person lost houses lost lives and livelihoods I just wonder you know recently it's sort of fed into this political narrative I don't know whether you saw it you know that suggests it's all tofu eating won't nonsense of the privileged um does that worry you at all or do you think what do you think about that sort of characterization of people fighting for the climate um I mean there's some kind of misconception that it's only privileged people who who can afford to care about the climate when we and that's a very westernized picture when when we look at the global at the global scale most people living on the front lines I mean but most people who are foreign and many of the people who are leading the the fight against it are the ones actually leading living on the front lines they are not these tofu-eating privileged people in the UK but rather many indigenous peoples all over the world who are who are in many cases risking their lives and freedom um fighting against this destruction and that part of the problem is that they haven't been allowed yeah exactly they are not airtime they are not being heard they are not on the front pages even though they are living on the front lines I just wanted to I know we're coming close to the end now but I just wonder whether you've become a a global figure and you know literally put climate change in the environment on the front pages across the world but I Wonder has it come at a cost I mean none of it can be easy the front pages may be fine but you've had to put up with horrible trolling death threats to your family as I understand it I mean would you ever think this is taking too much out of me um no I mean of course it's it can be a lot to do and a lot that you have to deal with sometimes but I mean thinking about the trolling for example I mean that's not really something that's difficult to deal with it's just if you if you aren't even reading the comments then it doesn't bother you but I I do think that the the positive effects of this much uh more outweigh the negative effects because it gives me as I said hope is something that you need to do and doing something makes me feel at least hopeful in one way um without without doing that without being an activist I don't know I would maybe fall into despair or thinking that nothing can be done but now when I'm actually taking action it feels like we can do something about it it feels meaningful you talked in the past about it giving you purpose yeah definitely because I think that's today we we don't really have enough purpose in our lives at least speaking from from many people I know it's like we're running around in this endless hamster wheel trying to fulfill um try to yeah fulfill the expectations of others and trying to whatever it may be make money or gain followers on social media or so on and that doesn't really mean anything but when you have something to fight for something that actually means something it gives you a purpose and the fact is as you say very starkly in the book that you can keep fighting and still have to live with the disappointment of things maybe not moving in the right direction certainly not quickly enough yeah but there aren't days where you wake up and think do you know what I should just do something else or I should focus more on me or no I mean I do other things as well of course uh but um I I mean we have to remember that this is a marathon and not a Sprint I kind of knew when I got into this that this is something that we're gonna have to do for a long time because things that we are advocating uh like major transformational system changes are not going to happen overnight and just in terms of that you know you're in it for the Long Haul what happens next do you have to change the way the way your you know that what you do or you know if if you're looking back and thinking you know we're not getting the change quick enough no do you change the way you operate Maybe I mean for example writing this book is another it's a change um because we've often we've talked about we need a system change and we and we have referred to these things but haven't at this I haven't been given enough time to actually um explain what we mean and giving voice to those who actually have important things to say about this but here is an opportunity to actually explain it in a more thoroughly way um and this is I see it as a form of activism um because whatever platform I have I use it in order to bring attention to the climate crisis and and so on so this is one way of doing that and you've explained what you feel about how that question that you're asked all the time I wonder do you still have faith in humanity in people I mean uh not everyone but um I think having spent so much time in the climate movements meeting so many incredible people from all over the world um fighting for the for the same cause um that makes me feel hopeful that people can people can act and there are so many people who are who are willing to do really willing to fight for this um and that that gives me hope that when and also when enough people come together we can achieve almost anything um and also I hope that there might be positive tipping points if we talk often about these negative tipping points but I I think that there are social tipping points for example that we might already have crossed we don't know we can't really predict anything like that and so you have hope what brings you Joy finally what brings me joy is to is to of course see see results of what we're doing but joy also just um much joy in other activists um and the community that we have which is I'm very proud of that we have created I'm proud of what you've done so far not over yet but yeah yeah I mean in that way yes but but I don't I don't really measure those things in in being proud of or not when it comes to to activism it's more like this is a moral duty I am privileged enough to have the possibility of doing something and therefore I need to do something um for as long as I can as much as I can so it's um yeah thank you so much for talking to us today we appreciate it thank you

Channel: Channel 4 News

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Keywords: Greta thunberg, greta, greta news, greta thunberg latest, greta thunberg update, channel 4 news, c4 news, channel 4, climate change, climate crisis, climate change news, climate crisis latest, climate crisis update, global warming, climate science, cop, cop26, cop27, environmentalism, direct action, climate action, school strike, climate protest, greta strike, greta school strike

Id: YXezjC_s2Vw

Length: 30min 22sec (1822 seconds)

Published: Sun Oct 30 2022