Francis Chan: Oh K.P. you’ve been through
a ton over these last few years. I didn’t think we would ever be in a position
like this when we began our relationship. And before we get into anything, let me just
tell you that with the whole lawsuit and everything when I first heard about it, it was
concerning, surprising, and I know a lot of people just kind of, you know maybe walked away and wanted to distance themselves from you. And if I’m perfectly honest, that temptation
was there for me. Because you just start thinking about like,
‘Oh no, what if he’s guilty and I’m associated with him; I better just get away.’ And it’s like this natural self-preservation. And so, I appreciate you even opening up your
tax returns, your personal income tax returns to me, because I needed to see that. I need to see Danny’s, you know your own
son, because well, ‘Maybe he’s not getting rich, but maybe his son is.’ Or it’s just I needed to be sure and I needed
to be able to speak with integrity to other people. I’ve been to your house, driven in that
old VW bug of yours. You know I’ve seen what you eat, some of
its kind of creepy, but it’s you know it’s just simple. And it’s just like, I just go, “How could
anyone accuse someone like this about fraud and racketeering, and trying to take [money]…the,
the… what could his motive be? Why would he take all this money, you know,
if he’s not going to keep it for himself.” Like it just doesn’t make any sense. Dr. K.P. Yohannan: Yeah, you know, I got so confused
why this was going on, worried about. To me the, the biggest crisis was the accusation
that money was missing, and fraud. I was so in depression. But I just, just lost all hope. So many people just disappeared. I did’t know what happened. But we had a lot to learn through all this,
and I think I realized without suffering, we cannot serve the Lord. Francis Chan: And I want to apologize, cause
I didn’t realize the depth of how bad some of this made you feel. Dr. K.P. Yohannan: No, you always remained deeply
honest and loving and kind. You know I’ll tell you something that’s
amazing. Over the years Francis like you, we have literally
hundreds of people—Americans, Europeans—travel to Nepal, India, and Burma and all these countries,
without even telling us they are there. And then they were looking for their children
they were sponsoring or the missionaries they were sponsoring, or the churches they built. Until this day we never had one case where
someone said, “You guys are rats, you are stupid, I couldn’t find my child, I couldn’t
find the church. I couldn’t find the Jesus Well.” And some of these communications could not
happen actually without these problems we are dealing with also. That’s…you know. In one way this a wonderful season that
the Lord allowed us to go through the test so that, right now, we have 70,000 children
we are helping that would be beggars on the street otherwise. But my dream is to see 500,000 children or
more, you know, helped, and, and you know, the 42 million widows that are living without
any hope and they should be rescued, and, you know, on and on. And these are all possibilities that are incredibly
powerful in the days to come. Francis Chan: Okay let me ask you something
that I think a lot of people will question. I mean I understand it now, because I understand
our legal system. But I think some people are looking and going,
“Okay this doesn’t make sense according to the settlement. The settlement is for $37 million dollars
that GFA has to pay out.” I mean I understand it, but can you just kind
of explain that so people understand? Dr. K.P. Yohannan: Francis, this was my biggest struggle. As a matter of fact, when all the board members
met, and the lawyers and all that, I was dying on the inside. How can we settle this thing and then pay
this kind of money? And I, you know I always believed in submitting
to authority. It will be 3-4 years longer, and it’ll take
more money than the money we are settling with if we are to continue in the court to
fight this battle. And it was advised by godly, Christian leaders
and everybody we knew, the best thing is to settle it. The other way was basically just to destroy
everything we have and end the ministry. But my heart was always weeping for the two
billion people that never heard Christ’s name, and somehow if this is not at God’s
time for us to close down everything here in the United States, we must do everything
we can. And the greatest majority of everybody felt this
was the way to go. Francis Chan: Yeah. The cost of continuing in the legal battle
is outrageous. Now, I …distraction is like…just seems
like such a small word to describe what this lawsuit has been, you know, to you personally
and the ministry. I mean, what a huge, massive distraction. And yet, over the last year, God’s still
been working, through GFA. I read some of the stats. I mean, there were still a ton of people saved
overseas; there was still a lot going on. Can you tell me about that? Dr. K.P. Yohannan: In one place I’ll never forget
our brothers walked all day climbing mountain to a dwelling place in the forest, just two, three hundred families, and already a hundred people died there – malaria, which is mosquitoes. And they carried 200 mosquito nets on their
back and distributed, not ever telling them you have to become a Christian or read this
Bible, any of those. Just love them and gave them help. They went back after six months and people
went and asked, “You people came and gave us, and no one died since then, why did you
do that?” And they borrowed from Mother Teresa’s famous
statement, “Because of the love of Jesus.” You know, I mean, that story actually, when
I first heard it, I cried and cried. It’s so beautiful story. But the most exciting thing, Francis, is we
don’t write, there are over 600,000 people not only made a commitment to follow Christ
but participate in Sunday worship. Francis Chan: Just in 2018? Dr. K.P. Yohannan: Just one year. Francis Chan: 600,000 new believers? Dr. K.P. Yohannan: Just one year. Yes. Usually we don’t talk about those things,
but I just said we suffered enough, it is better to say some more things, I think. Francis Chan: Let’s talk about church for
a second, because this is some of the questions that I think people want to know about. Like, with Believers Church. It’s, you know, some people are accusing
you of people kissing your ring. I mean we dress a little differently... Dr. K.P. Yohannan: We are as hard-core evangelical
as you can imagine. We are not Catholic, and we don’t believe
in transubstantiation, in the holy communion. But like the police man, like the McDonald,
you know, the dress code is part of the historical church always been. And that’s one of the significant reasons. Plus, we are not an independent man-centered
little church. Like I’m the Metropolitan of our church. But the Metropolitan simply means first among
equals. I have no greater power than the thirty other
bishops. And Book of Acts, by the way, is not a theological
book. When I say pure orthodoxy, I say Book of Acts
is a foundation. All what you see in Book of Acts is for us
today, and we are to witness and reach the lost world, preach the Gospel. And so, people have misunderstood. We do not have a practice of people kissing
my ring, but when people come to me or our bishops, they simply bow their head and say,
“Bishop give me a blessing.” So, what do you do? We just touch their forehead
and say, “The Lord bless you.” That’s our teaching. And, we follow the Nicene Creed and Apostle’s
Creed, and the apostle traditions and the holy traditions, and their teaching, which
is very radical. I don’t talk about ecclesiastical traditions,
which comes and goes. Dr. K.P. Yohannan: But I have spent 15 years of my
life in this journey now. I’m not kidding with you. There are literally hundreds and hundreds
of books day and night. And the whole thing began, actually, my deep
hunger to know God. It was not, it’s not to teach somebody else. And 2 Peter 1:4 says, “You and I are called
to partake of His divine nature.” And one day I was meditating on that, it was
like… I mean this was before all the crisis and
everything, by the way. It was like I was in the pitch darkness, all
of a sudden, the sun just came up. I was thinking 'I was called to partake of
His divine nature.' And that revolutionized my life…that knowing…I
mean why America is a post-Christian nation? Why in England, I was just there recently… Every church building that’s sold, becoming
bars and dancing clubs and all those things. I mean I am not against American Christianity
as it is, but I am not against reformation, anything like that. But, when information becomes spirituality,
then it’s nothing less than work of the flesh to gain points with God. But, “Theosis”, that is 2 Corinthians
3:18, we see in the mirror His precious face and Holy Spirit then work within us and changing
us into His nature, only as we cooperate and only as we yield and obey. And this, if the Lord ever allowed me, I would
write a book on my journey into understanding, the Lord through the faith, that was not just
doctrines, but knowing Him. And so, our church is… and all, I mean I
write lots of materials, but people misunderstand a lot of things about us. Francis Chan: I’d be happy to wear the same
thing every day. Like I don’t have to think about it, just
throw a robe on, you know. It’s just whatever is right. Like I just want to pursue whatever is right. Dr. K.P. Yohannan: And Jesus was a Rabbi
and he had the woman came and say, “If I only could touch the, the hem of His robe. I could be…” I not saying you should wear a robe. And I love your head. I wish I had your head. Francis Chan: I wish I had crazy hair like
you. But it’s okay, its… Dr. K.P. Yohannan: But, you know, you know Francis,
the real thing is, when the time run out, when you see the Lord, then only we know all
things as they are. And meanwhile I think my prayer is, “Lord,
save me from myself and let me be Yours.” I cannot think of crying myself to sleep many
times, but I have now, because I am overcome by His love, and suffering, and the pain and
the agony of the world, and I just realize I just got a few more years left. And do everything I can as Jesus did, that’s
all. And then it was 40 years ago I was in North
Carolina driving on the highway. One of the first supernatural experiences
I had with the Lord. And the Lord said, “Don’t strive, don’t
fight to make anything happen. All those who join with you, I will bless
them. This is My work.” And that was the first experience of freeing
me from making anything happen. So, if … I said to my colleagues, “If
GFA close down states or if you had to go through more suffering and get crucified,
what is it? This life is very short.” But all those who will be part of us, when
they get to heaven, they will meet millions of people they have never met before, because
we live for this. That’s all…that’s all the idea we have
in our head. You know, I just travelling through thousands
of miles to unreached areas and seeing people, and cried and cried seeing the leper colonies
and the slum dwellers and the children on the streets, and these are people, Jesus loves
them. And this is all we are consumed about. And people fight about this doctrine, that
doctrine, all those things, you know that is so irrelevant. Francis Chan: Yeah. I mean it’s good to hear that even amidst
all of this and the accusations, like the work has gone on. Because people lose sight of something so
much bigger. I mean I’d love to just hear, like, in your
personal journey, do you feel like that concern for the lost and the concern for the suffering
is growing in your life? Or is it something you’re just trying to
hold onto and you know, is it increasing? Dr. K.P. Yohannan: Well, Francis, these last three
years of this walking through a forest fire, I feel ashamed to say it, but it’s true. I came to a place of such pain and said, God,
is this all drama or magic or where are you?” And then all I could hear is silence. But then, you know, God used my wife long
ago in my life to read Psalm 73 and there’s a verse in there that anchored her life, “Whom
have I in heaven but You and on earth I desire no one beside You.” But then you read the whole Psalm, you talk
about a Godly man who said, “I just going to give up my faith.” But those times Francis, I force myself to
go silent for a day or two. I say, “God I, I just don’t know what
to do. I’m a lost human being. Please help.” And I think every time the Lord was faithful
to rekindle the fire within my heart. And I am not saying there is any glory and
poverty and suffering and tears, no. But when I sense I’m doing things not because,
you know, His love and passion, I know I’m losing my focus and then, I basically I stop
and I say, “Lord, I am, I’m struggling, I’m losing, please help me.” And I pray a prayer, several prayers, every
single day, “Please, dear Jesus, don’t let my heart stop breaking for the lost world.” And this I learned from Dr. Bob Pierce, the
founder of World Vision. I was 20 years old at that time in Singapore. You know the prayer he prayed, “Let my heart
break with the things that break the heart of God.” And one thing I learned over the 15 years of my
spiritual journey with the Lord, that is, nothing I can do myself to be a spiritual
person. He only can do it, if I would yield to Him. And I pray a prayer every day at least 50 times,
“Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me this sinner,” which is the famous Jesus
prayer from the first century, you know. And what that does is, it help me realize
no matter how many sermons I preach, how many books I write, really, nothing is gonna make
me good. I am a struggling human being, I need His
grace and mercy. And He’d been faithful. Francis Chan: You know you talk about maybe
you have a couple of years left and this and that, and you’re gonna stand before God. What do you envision like what that moment’s
going to be? I mean is it all, like just, I can’t wait??
Is there any fear? Is there like, what, what are your thoughts
when I talk about this? Because you, you talk about it very openly,
that’s why I… Dr. K.P. Yohannan: You know, Francis, I think about
it all the time because it’s 40 years ago when I was writing something with my favorite
fountain pen, Mont Blanc pen, which I had from Europe. This, this voice I had, yeah, I not a charismatic
hearing voices, things like that, you know. It’s a strange thing … “So, you like
that pen.” And I looked around my room and said, “Who is
this?” And I spoke out and said, “Of course I do. It’s $600 cost of pen.” The next question, “Who’s gonna use it
100 years from now?” And I went numb. And I realize this is God asking me a question. This was the beginning of GFA by the way,
and I was learning what it means to be obedient and walk away from everything and do His will. I cannot have the world and Him too. But the thing is I think about my life which
I learn, it’s a walk, it’s a journey, and the forest fires and valleys and accusations
and great times, and people say wonderful things about you and all that, but finally
the walk ends when I see Him face to face. And the moment I think that thought, Francis,
what comes to my mind… Long ago somebody gave me a birthday gift
of a painting of a weary, worn out, tramp-looking man in the clouds, and Jesus embracing him,
and he just collapsed his head on His shoulder. And I see me like that. You know, this been a very sad, in some
ways very lonely, difficult journey. But I...in the last week I was saying, “Lord,
I just want to come home.” And then the Lord said, “You are forgetting
something very fast.” Like Paul said, “I want to go home, but
I will stay around for Your sake.” And then I changed my prayer and I said, “Lord
I’m…whatever time You want me to be here I will do whatever, only give me grace.” And so, looking forward to the end of the
journey, for me, I will say this was true for 40 years, at least since last 15 years
of my knowing Him, it is one of that image, of finally being with Him. Francis Chan: And don’t you, like I know
for me, like sometimes I don’t have peace because my life is too easy and I want to
be that guy that collapses at the end, kind of like what Paul says. Like my…I’m done, I ran the race, you
know, I've been poured out like this drink offering. I’m just like, “Ahhh, you know like, we want to
end that way.” And I know obviously through the pain and
difficulty of the last few years, but isn’t there a side of you that we almost have more
peace because we’re supposed to spend our lives feeling exhausted by the end, and going,
“Ahhh, I poured it all out, I left it all there and now I’m going to collapse into
Your arms.”? Dr. K.P. Yohannan: Yeah, you know Francis, an absolute
truth, that is through my painful journey and walk even today, when I, you know, go
to sleep the last few minutes when I feel that I am not looking to find joy and satisfaction
from my pain and suffering. And I realize, you know, I’m fulfilling
Christ’s suffering in my flesh. I go to bed with great joy and gratitude that,
you know, that I was chosen from a tiny village to serve Him. I never could imagine… But one thing, I just got the manuscript for
this large book, titled “How to Stay in the Battle”. I wrote that thing four or five years ago
but never been published, but then I was thrust into this thing, and I realized, without suffering
we cannot know the Lord, nor can we serve Him. Francis Chan: Let me ask you one more thing. It’s about anger. Like were there times … because I wrestle
with this sometimes, where…and I’m, I’m only 50, you know, 51. But sometimes, you know you feel like I’ve
lived this consistent life or I’ve tried so hard for all these years, experienced so
much, and then some 20-year-old, you know, just knows so much more than you because,
you know, he just got out of Bible college or he has a feeling in his heart and writes
things and accuses and this and that, and… And you just, you know sometimes I’m like,
“Okay, this 20-year-old is teaching me how to raise kids, you know, and does he even
have a kid? I have a grandkid,” you know, and, and there’s
this pride and I just have to fight and go, you know what? “No God, it’s by Your grace,
by Your grace, by Your grace.” So, I just try to imagine being in your shoes
having lived this life and to see all these things. And most of us, like myself, I doubt I’ll
see the day where there’s a fruit of 600,000 people in a year, and everything else. And yet meanwhile, there’s all these people
that have their opinions of you and they’ll write it so, with such animosity and arrogance
and everything else. Like I gotta imagine there’s some, like
you have to deal with the anger, or maybe not, you know how it is… Dr. K.P. Yohannan: Well you know, Francis, you are
describing my story in many ways. You know, all this stuff I face exactly what
you’re talking about. And maybe 15-20 years ago I would have a whole
different reaction, but what now I do is basically, go silent and say, “Lord, please have mercy
on him. Help them to know.” And to not answer. I find myself saying fewer words to people
although I know what I want to argue and talk about, I just don’t say nothing, because
they are not in a place they can learn. I used to be a lawyer for God, but now, you
know, I’m a dumb person. You know, many times, especially younger people
and people have no clue about the Lord. That don’t… now it don’t trouble me hardly at all, and
just I just, you know, it’s not… Francis Chan: I mean it’s just a different
time now, whereas, you know, I remember when I started ministry, no one could get to you
and accuse you, because there was no social media. Now it’s like anyone has a platform; anyone
can tweet things out and then it gets retweeted…I don’t even know how it all works, but it just
gets out there and so its hard to have that patience and that grace. And yet, yeah I was just curious how you… Dr. K.P. Yohannan: The best is not to read any of those
stuff. Francis Chan: Yeah, exactly. And I don’t, it’s just that people send
it to me, like my friends will say, “Hey did you hear what this guy said about you?” It’s like, “Don’t tell me, I’m trying
to just stay away from it all.” Dr. K.P. Yohannan: You know our problems were, Francis,
they’re not over yet. Francis Chan: Okay. Dr. K.P. Yohannan: We still have to come up with ten
million dollars which we don’t have to, you know, for the final settlement. And my prayer and hope is that all these people
who, you know, claim their money back, which they will get, that they will understand this
is the greatest investment they made in their life, to touch the lost world, but that’s
what we are praying for, a miracle will happen. Francis Chan: No, that’s good. Yeah, thanks for everything. Thanks for your time. Thanks for, I mean, going through the process
and being patient with me. Dr. K.P. Yohannan: And I feared during the crisis,
you know, that you would be so attacked because of our friendship, and you know, you will,
you will, you will walk away. I feared that sometime. But I thought, ‘No, he’s a very smart
man and he will find his way to find out if we are real or not.’ So, I appreciate you so much for your friendship
and your kindness. And all I can tell you as a human encouragement,
I can guarantee when we see the Lord there will be multitudes around the throne because
of your kindness and love and support and trusting us. You will never be disappointed and the same
thing I’m looking for someday.
