Gold Seal LIVE: Loss of Control with Patty Wagstaff and Rich Stowell

so in other areas you know other areas of Florida we give some flight training we do up set training and aerobatic training and we have a decathlon like rich does and also an extra we start everybody off in the extra I'm sorry in the decathlon to make sure that they have the basics and then move them into the extra if that's what they want I've been doing flying air shows for about 30 years I still fly about about 12 to 15 shows a year all over the country and I take aerobatics and I take my aerobatics very very seriously as most of the professional pilots do and I want everybody to learn this stuff the right way and hope to pass on what I've learned through having a flight school or an aerobatic school great thank you very much Patti so I think what I'm gonna do is put on my dpe hat just for a moment because what I think all of us together as we've talked preparing for the show realize is that there is sort of a deficiency I know aerodynamic knowledge and a little bit and skill and that's what we're gonna kind of talk about tonight but let's say I was your D PE and you were coming for your private pilot evaluation and I've done this for about 20 years so everybody takes their pilot certificate put it on the table no pressure here and in the ACS we have a lot of different maneuvers but one of the things they asked for is a knowledge and judgment on spin awareness so let's say we have a standard part 23 Cessna and I got out a brand new one here for you tonight never been I don't think it's even been turned much less fun but let's say we're in a 30-degree Bank turn coordinated turn level turn is a lift and I want you to go right into that hashtag we loss of control and you're going to send in some answers and Russ is going to kind of calibrate this for us so we're in a 30-degree Bank turn is lift equal on the wings okay so we have a 30-degree Bank turn is lift equal on the wings second if I take that plane and this would be a you know coming maybe base to final and I'm slowly the accelerating and I don't notice and I bring it accidentally to a stall again coordinated what's going to happen to the plane what is going to happen is going to roll or tell us what it's going to happen is one way the other way straight down so give us an answer there and the last thing I want to ask is if I wanted to slip the plane from this configuration as I'm turning base to final or if I'm on final with a wing down which rudder would I apply would I apply the bottom rudder or the top rudder all three of these questions by the way are on the quiz at the end so we'll give you the answers you're halfway done with the test but what I get a lot of as pilot examiner unfortunately is people saying oh I can't slip to land because I'm cross controlled and it's dangerous well slip to land is one of the required maneuvers in the ACS as are turning stalls and I get a lot of Oh my instructor never had me stall the plane in a turn and so you know depending on how evil I feel we may or may not do that but you are required to do that on a flight test so these are things that we might want to talk about so rich why don't you lay out for us this loss of control issue the problem and what some of the solutions might be okay great so let's start with a relatively simple definition of what loss of control is and loss of control accidents basically result from situations where the pilot either should have maintained control of the airplane will regain the aircraft controls but for some reason did not and of course we have two varieties we have loss of control that might occur during ground operations and we have loss of control that might have curved while we're in flight and of course this evening we're focusing on the more fatal ones which are the loss of control in flight and it's really not a not a new issue at all in fact we can go back historically 73 years ago to 1944 when the classic book stick and rudder was published by Wolfgang Langevin and even in there wolfgang talks about almost all fatal accidents were caused by loss of control and it goes on to add that while the pilots were doing turns and so Ethan if we can pull up the first slide here yeah so we can see almost all fatal accidents are caused by loss of controlled during a turd identified seventy-three years ago Ethan if we can go to the next slide now so the general aviation joint steering committee released a study that they did where they categorized accidents in the ten year period 2001 to 2010 and one of the things they found again loss of control in flight by far and away the largest accident category in fact there were there were more loss of control fatal accidents than the next five accident categories combined which includes controlled flight into terrain power plant failures low altitude operations and then a couple of other categories as well if we drill down into loss of control and look at the phases of flight where pilots were losing control and having a fatal accident we find again maneuvering flight again going back 73 years to stick and rudder still dominates here so maneuvering flight is the phase of flight where lost control occurs more often and leads to a fatal accident and we have approached landing in rude initial climb and a couple of other different categories some additional perspective if we look at an AOP a study that was done for the period 1993 to 2001 they identified that fatal stall spins by phase of flight and look once again maneuvering flight far and away the largest category where loss of control accidents for occurrence and this goes back to to David's initial questions about turning an airplane and what inputs do we make in the coordinator turn which which way does the airplane break during a stall if it's coordinated which rudder do we need to step on if we want to slip the airplane so additionally because of all of this the FA is made loss of control a special emphasis or emphasis area has been for quite a long time NTSB is weighed in as well back in October of 2015 NTSB hosted a forum in DC called humans and Hardware where they brought different stakeholders together and we had a day-long forum looking at perhaps training and technology solutions to try to address the loss of control issue and of course there are there are technology solutions that are on the board they're also training issues solutions that are on the board it's not really gonna take both working together to really see a significant change in the loss of control accident rate also NTSB has put loss of control or addressing loss of control as as top on their most-wanted list and they have done that for the last several years we can see it here on the screen prevent loss of control in flight and general aviation so it remains says how most as a as a safety area an emphasis area not only for FAA but NTSB and then in 2014 the International Civil Aviation Organization which we'll call ICAO actually published a manual on upset prevention and recovery training and this is available online and what they've done is they've put together an integrated training framework that includes three different aspects that ICAO believes would be the most effective for the delivery of upset prevention recovery training and consequently would have the best the best impact in reducing fatal loss of control accidents and their their training framework goes from academics through simulation and actually in airplane training so it's it's a three pronged approach all three steps are important along with that they've come up with a with a three step mitigation and intervention strategy as well which would make sense to all of us if we just think about it awareness prevention and recovery if we maintain our awareness we can prevent the scenarios that might lead to loss of control if we see a loss of control scenario developing in front of us maybe we can have a mitigation strategy and intervention and prevent it from going from from a loss of control a departure from controlled flight and then of course the the the last step is full-blown loss of control we have to go to the recovery phase unfortunate aspect of this is that we're most loss of controls accidents occur we're too close to the ground for the recovery part of it so so if we're relying solely on recovery to the exclusion of our awareness and prevention it's not a very good strategy so we need all three in this continuum to help have to help us have the best chance of avoiding loss of control in the first place David back to you yeah and that's you know I was listening you were on the finer points we have answers coming in how many you want to run them okay we'll go to that in a moment I'm getting noise in my ear but anyway you were mentioning that awareness and prevention were much better rich than trying to recover these things in a low altitude isn't it like 70% of these or go a thousand feet the loss of control accidents is that correct well of course we have anywhere from 70 to 80% are typically attributed to pilot error but I can speak really to the stall spin accidents which are low altitude accidents more than 90% of accidental stall spins occur below a thousand feet yeah so games over so even if you could put up the VG diagram I have there I'm catching them out of order so he's gonna know the one with the that's the one yeah so you can see in the center here this is Dave st. George the GA pilot uses 11% of the flight envelope and I'm pretty happy with that you know occasionally I'll get a little negative G a little positive G when I tweeted this out you know and we were talking about unusual attitudes patty came back and she said for the well-trained pilot there are no unusual attitudes and I said now that's my kind of thing but we're typically using that small little part of the flight envelope that's what we're very comfortable with as soon as we depart from that we're in stress and we're not going to react correctly unless we're properly trained to automatically take control of that plane in other words when a pilot or a person is in stress immediately their anticipation their their their higher functioning executive functions go away and I can tell you from experience the brain kind of shrivels to the size of a peanut and you are on automatic and so unless you are trained to operate there you're not going to do well so patty does training in obviously every corner of that envelope why don't you tell us a little bit about how somebody would train for upset recovery patty since you do a lot of that we start everybody with basic airmanship and upset recovery techniques and what we find is that a lot of pilots that come in GA pilots won't have some good airmanship skills to begin with a lot of them do but some of them don't they're not they don't exhibit really correct use of the rudder they're not using rudder in their climb they're leading terms with rudder which puts them in a skip right away and or they're dragging a wing a lot so we start our first lessons off with basic stall steep turns installs and turns and then we and then we do something else getting turns and so on to show them what can happen because if if you're first of all not flying if you're not playing straight and you can't fly you know you're fine with the wing down and you're not even aware but you can't really do aerobatic so sometimes we spend an hour or more cleaning up their basic flying and getting them to understand how the butter works before we before we really go into any serious aerobatic and and what I find is but I just want to know know they they're disappointed to find out that they weren't taught some of these things and they hadn't done they sing some of these are commercial pilots some have been flying for a long time sometimes not but some of them have been flying have quite a few hundred hours or even a couple thousand hours but they really weren't taught what the writer does what happens in this getting turned they've heard about it and they're upset that they haven't learned that so it's not being passed on at the beginning stages of flying and sometimes never and it's one thing to hear about something and it's another thing to actually go out and do it and experience it and feel it and be able to apply it in the you know recovery after you know so but again it's like it said you have to be aware you have to prevent it but unless you're aware of it you can't prevent or recover from it so we we go pretty deep into that and and so upset training is the first thing we do you must be always yeah no that's exactly what I wanted to hear and I would imagine for somebody as proficient as you it would be pretty frustrating to see that kind of sloppy flying that happens but I think the important things you said it's not just the beginners it's a very high time pilots that don't handle the rudder correctly and and again they're they're upset about it as they came to us or that they go to any but I found that they're they're quite disappointed in frustrated they weren't these things of course I'm so training and you know things like that in their primary training like they used to have I know I said you had World War two training booklet and yeah everyone has to spend and come out on a enrich when you do your training it's all in the decathlon then for the upset yeah primarily in the decathlon I know there are certain aspects of the training that we can we can do in in non aerobatic capable airplanes so we do mix it match and and exactly Patti's experience has been mine and others as well is that we spend a lot of time just working on basics and and deeper understanding of things that we would have hoped that people would have gotten in there in their primary training and I'm a face it we're all products of our training environment we don't know what we don't know and so we're gonna talk a little bit later on about this hey the flight instructor side of this whole equation you know and we don't want to throw anyone under the bus but I can just relate my experience when I learned to fly I went down to the cap school this is back in the 80s and they were down in Poughkeepsie and I realized right away that I was wasting my money it's like I didn't know how to fly to start with and use the rudder and it took me years you know and then I got myself a champ and it's like you know and and work your skills up and I went when they were at Flagler and it made a lot more sense but boy I'll tell you primary training and I know this from being an examiner you know there there's a lot to be learned and people should come into that business very cautiously and say I got myself a pilot certificate this is a license to learn and now I have to really go out and improve my skills so what can an ordinary pilot say they got that certificate and they're marching forward what would be the first thing they could do to to improve their rudder use and skills rich are there are there things you can do to build up your sure so so of course it goes back to making sure that there are sound fundamentals what does the rudder do when you step on it what does the what how does the airplane respond when you deflect the ailerons what does it do when you apply pitch inputs and really isolate those three things and then what we try to do from the aerobatic training environment is is bring those movements relative to the pilot because really once we once we internalize those movements it doesn't matter what attitude we're in you always looks like y'all roll always looks like roll and pitch always looks like pitch so so that's one of the things that we can do is just become more aware of what it is we're doing with the airplane and how is it responding to us Patti do you have anything to add to that no and I think in order to be aware that sometimes you have to go and get more instruction but I think a good pilots always learning and it doesn't have to be you're about a construction it can just pay to find an instructor that helps them understand and also reading there's some amazing magazines out there flying magazine flying pilot APA magazine they always have really good articles on these things sometimes I'm surprised at how how little some of the pilots let me read you know I always have a big stack of magazines at the school and newsletters and anything that I can you know put out there and just don't subscribe to aviation magazines they don't read aviation stuff in books and so on and there's so much valuable information out there you should you know you should read as much as you can because you can learn from that and that's not the same as being in the cockpit obviously but I would say yeah and you're at least expensive I mean a good book you know and Rich's book that emergency maneuver training is that the one you wrote love that one so anyway um I think okay there's some question coming on online now all right somebody got brave okay we've got us I think Ethan and will we're telling me we have at least one person who attempted to answer that question here's Dave so let's see who that okay oh this is a question excuse me okay let's see what the question is all right I don't have a person's name here but thanks for asking this and the question is what is maneuvering flight paddy you want to take a stab at that one and a good place is usually because you are low in your maneuvering and this is where the improper use of rudder comes in most clearly because you're slowing down you're making a lot of power changes and so by definition that's is challenging does that sound like maneuvers like to you rich exactly and it's funny how many different words we use to describe exactly the same thing maneuvering is just a long way of saying turning flight and as we know from from all attitude flying there really are only two flight paths that an airplane follows you are either on a straight line or you're on some kind of curving flight path and curving flight path is turning flashing right okay we'll talk your name there Todd thanks for that question do we have another one will Nathan oh we have an answer okay we do have a I think you said some responses yeah okay so let's see let's see what we've got Dave I can't read that from here can you read that it's from Robert Robert Robinson Kowski Robert thank you for uh thanks for joining us yes thank you it looks like yeah he just got his CFI recently so congratulations to him okay it says the outside wing in a coordinated turn should be creating more lift in a 30 degree Bank coordinated turn but lift is still perpendicular and let's see what the second one says you can said there was a second one coming in and I'm gonna let you take these rich one eighth one actually okay somebody check it out and deleted it so rich what do you think about that if a plane is in a stable coordinated turn where is lyft gonna be on these swings give you the tough question Patti we're not inverted that's right there are two parts to it there's the the physical act of rolling to that 30 degrees of Bank and the way that's allowed to happen is there is a differential and lift that's why the airplane is in fact rolling but once you've established that coordinated bank there is no more rolling and so therefore the lift has to be equal on the two wings in the scenario that David is described yeah what we do in our flight school before people solo as we go out they've done their normal stalls we take them we put them into a turning configuration and we bring the plane gently to a stall and they do the same thing every time they grab the seat and they brace for impact because they think we're gonna spin and it just very gently falls away from the lift vector which would be there the lift is equal so you know nothing to it very easy very gentle and it's such a good teaching experience as a CFI you can really make an impression on your students that way and they go well what happened so suddenly you've got them in the palm of your hand you could talk about aerodynamics and you'll actually be interested so a turning stall is a very powerful teaching maneuver did anyone come online Russ and volunteer if the plane was which way we slip we didn't get any I think you're scared I think you scared him off let's continue on see where we go and everybody let's have some comments from you yeah please jump online and and give these guys a little stress you want to talk about the base to final kind of turning and since we're into the rudders and use of lift sure so I want everybody to do a simple thought experiment I want you to visualize yourself flying a left hand pattern and you're turning base to final so you know let an established left hand turn coordinator turn just like David described it the the outset here and I want you to imagine yourself now Ethan do we have that the next slide we can put that up that would be helpful here so I want you to imagine yourself for whatever reason so we're gonna slow flight automatically already we've overshot the runway centreline so that's the first link in the chain of events here and for whatever reason we we feel embarrassed or or maybe we don't want to level the wings and do a go-around which is usually the safest option that we we have in a case like this so we just continued so we go ahead and we we decide we're going to skid the turn by applying in side rudder in this case left rudder and as we do that you can imagine yourselves as you apply left rudder and a left bank the nose of the airplane is gonna respond by slicing downward and yaw through the horizon well as human beings if we're 200 feet above the ground and we see the nose dropping guess what we're gonna do instinctively we're gonna try to pull the nose back up which is not gonna fix the yaw problem we created by applying the left rudder and so now we've got yaw and we're applying back elevator which does one thing we know for sure increases the angle attack and if we exceed critical angle attack with the rudder applied as well the airplane has no choice but to do an accelerated stall spin too close to the ground for recovery so no room for recovery even if we know how but we had the awareness breakdown in the awareness and we did not have a prevention and this goes back to some of the things that Patti was saying where people actually leading their turns with some rudder we have a training system actually where one in four pilots if you survey them will actually tell you that the primary control that they use for turning an airplane is the rudder well it shouldn't be it shouldn't be any surprise then that the stall spin out of a skidded based a final turn or the attempted turned back to the runway after an engine failure is so prevalent if pilots believe 25 percent of us that the rudder is going to make that happen for them and I know patty teaches the simulated skidding bass to final turn in her training program patty why don't you describe how you set that up and how the students respond to that yeah that's really interesting too about leading with to talk about that more because I find that it's it's often the most experienced pilots that incorrectly use the rudder rather than the least experienced pilots it because they're the most experienced pilots are very conscious of using rudder that very careful to use murder but they overdo it and we can point it out to them they have to think about it and then you discuss it and so on and so forth but it's it's seen a lot the basis of final turn that we do and we do that in the first lesson that we give is first like David does and I know you like we were talking about we set up a turning stop so with the coordinated make sure that the pilots square in their seat and usually I demonstrate it first and I go into a turn and I stall the plane I have a little bit of powered on and when I stall it I usually just take my hands off and I mean the backseat but I kind of had my hands America it's going straight ahead it's not trying to do anything and that often surprises people they think it's going to go into some wild spin again you know that type of thing we've already discussed on the ground about use of rudder top right or bottom rudder and so the way I set up a skidding turn we talked about it yes I pretend that we're in Africa or Alaska and I make them look out the window and I say okay I'm gonna be a sloppy pilot and I'm gonna start putting in some bottom rudder and and I and I turn you know do a nice deep turn and the next thing we kind of almost often just flip over until we're inverted and happens really fast and I'm flying the plane when I first demonstrated people are very surprised at how quickly it happens I think and I think anybody would think that whatever live done stalls if I get into a stalling that have some warning I'm gonna hear so morning or something like that and they when they first see how quickly you can go over get into a you know highly unusual attitude it's it's a real eye-opening experience yeah and that's that's that's gonna get their attention for sure yeah I think the other thing that's powerful though is when they see that if they are coordinated and they stall nothing really happens and I yeah yeah you know yeah when I do that in a flight test you know and a lot of people come in and they say I haven't done turning stalls if we go out and we're gonna do them the next thing that happens general is you know nice coordinated turn they get it into a stall and it starts mushing and it never really breaks and we're going downhill at 700 feet per minute nice and stable and as you know the ACS says announces the stall we're stalled and there's no awareness so can't go both ways on that that's sometimes a question we do have a question let's see what we've got all right WR fence can you touch on proper and improper use of rudder with banking okay it's kind of what we were talking about maybe go into it a little bit deeper proper versus improper use of rudder with banking sure Patti sure you turn okay so the real question is what is what is the primary purpose of the rudder and the primary purpose of the rudder is to cancel y'all and you all comes from a lot of different sources adverse yaw deflect the ailerons we have adverse yaw we need to cancel that with rudder application torque P factor slipstream changing throttle settings changing speeds high-speed flight there could be some rigging effects so the rudder is really there to cancel your effects the only times we use the rudder as a primary input would be either either to skid spin the airplane and always links kids spin together so either to skid spin or to slip the airplane and as we know if we're going to slip the airplane we're not pointing the rudder at the ground we're pointing the rudder at the sky so our job is the pilot if we're not trying if we're trying to use the rudder as in its and its primary role to cancel yaw is to try to figure out how much yo is left over so perhaps I'm in a I'm in a slow flight configuration climbing left turn well once I'm established there are probably gonna guess we are going to need right rudder when we're all is said and done but if we're in the process of banking in slow flight it could be less rudder more rudder so we're always playing around with trying to find the magic amount of rudder we need to cancel that y'all and believe it or not the slips kid ball is not going to give us that information all the time Paddy anything to add to that yeah well I don't let them use the ball when we're when we're doing flight training I usually have something covering it up I really want them to feel their butt squaring the seat it's really important and sometimes people ask me about how am I gonna know and I'm like oh you know if I'm in the back seat I will see your head move I need your head is the ball think about that and I know that not I won't plan to have as much feel as the type of planes that we train in but but most of them do I think even in you know a twin like a baron you can feel very very well whether you're squaring this seat or not like jets you can feel you know the same thing so so it's I want them to feel it I want them to know and think about what Twitter they're say okay now if I'm going left which letter did I step on and like let's try it go up an experiment with it so on so forth but so in a turn proper use of rudder in a turn is whatever keeps you coordinated basically unless you're trying to slip we're trying to scan for some reason that's great oh you know when I heard twice Patti's say the same thing one was checking when they're just normal flying are they square in the seat you ever noticed people are kind of doing this and you know right away they're not coordinated they've you know and then in the Turner you know yeah they're definitely you know and I think it's Bud Davison and his talks you know when he's talking about flying tailwheel aircraft he says Novocain but you know it's just they don't feel it and so I think a lot of the initial training is turning up that kinesthetic feeling and I know rich you do Dutch rolls right you call them Dutch roll still where you roll on a point one of your videos has a real nice why don't you tell us a little about that as an exercise that people might use that'd be a good takeaway and to add add more about this whole idea of getting pilots to develop their sense of feel the overwhelming majority of general aviation of flying is day VFR looking outside flying but yet when people come into the training system we're all treated as if we're going to be flying four hundred passengers at the flight levels anytime soon and we cannot it's almost drilled out of us from the beginning never trust your senses sight sound or feel and that doesn't really apply to most of the general aviation flying that happens our senses are far more accurate in a visual environment in a contact environment where we were looking at the ground than any of our instruments instruments always have some lack so so I think if we get back as patty mentioned trust your senses when you're in that type of environment now when you're at the flight levels when you're in the clouds you can't do that you have to switch gears and you have to trust what the instruments are telling you and so the det role is a good exercise first of all we can we can do the exercise two ways put your feet on the floor and just bank the airplane continuous it left and right and you'll see as you're Bank left the nose will move to the right as you bank right the nose will move to the left feels bad and some airplanes you can actually hear the airflow coming off of the prop and it growls at you it's got a deeper throaty or sound to it put your feet back on and apply left aileron a little bit of left rudder right aileron right rudder and just continuously rock the wings so that we're not in any steady-state condition and the airplane will stay on its heading and the nose will stay on the heading your body should stay aligned with the airplane the sound has its normal sense again the ball is a lagging lagging indicator so we do it by looking outside and if the nose stays on a point we're doing well the alternative way of doing that is to look out at the wingtip and as you're looking at the wingtip it should move in a line from your head to your hip if it's moving for and after making a figure eight we know and you can actually feel it really well looking out at the wingtip as well we know we're not coordinated that the rudders a little bit out of whack or a little out of sync with what we're doing at the yellow David that's excellent I love doing that exercise and I'll tell you I fly different planes I fly one corporate and then I fly the champ and every time I get into the downwind I just do that to kind of tune up the feet again and so I can feel that different plane and I'm in otherwise it's gonna be a really lousy landing once said that great was you can't fly by feel in your senses you can't rely on that way to fly an IFR and you're flying a heavier plane and or any plane when you finally have far you have to go buy instruments a good instrument pilot though can do both and and we also get a lot of you know pets there used to be no serious pilots people like that that fly a lot of instruments and they have a hard time switching to the airmanship stick and rudder feeling and seeing looking outside and looking where they're going they're always going straight ahead instead of looking looking where they're turning is something that we see a lot if you think of pilots like Sully and you think of the Gimli glider the 757 that slipped down into game lady and and landed because they miscalculated the fuel and they flamed out and incidents like that where airliners have been safe from disaster those pellets have the ability to switch they had good stick and rudder skills and they had the ability to switch from all instruments to to flying the airplane so it's it no matter how good your autopilot is no matter how good an instrument pilot pilot you are you need those skills to be a good aviator absolutely okay so yeah I love that stuff I mean ultimately it's gonna come down to controlling the plane you break out of an ILS and you got a wicked crosswind you got to get the rudder in here you got to get right on it and put it on the pavement Ethan says we have a question loss of control our most loss of control accidents weather-related and I think that's a rich stole question if I ever heard one our most loss of control accidents weather-related certainly weather is a is a large factor in all kinds of different types of accidents but if we if we think back to the AOPA study that that looked at the period where 41% of the NuvaRing flight accidents culminated in a stall spin and the classic based a final or the classic engine failure on takeoff with the turn back those are all visual type accidents so weather might drive a lot of the poor decisions that pilots make once we get into the clouds mismanaging the maneuver the turn that might get us to better weather certainly is is a large part of loss of control but I think primarily what we're we want to talk about today are the are the day VFR looking outside where most of the accidents are occurring and what can we do to avoid those types of accidents great and I'm gonna jump Ethan here he's gonna hate me for this but do you have that slide it has the five bubbles on it from the loss of command precedes loss of control yeah I think this is a really good sort of analysis this is an AOP a tape that's very good and it's mostly talking about how the stalls we practice during training don't equal the stalls we you know get a startle response it's not the same thing in the pattern but it also points out you know if you put slide back up I'm sorry discipline precision awareness then comes loss of command and then finally loss of control in other words it's a continuum and failure to prepare failure to stay out of the weather perhaps failure to accommodate the terrain you've dug yourself a pretty deep hole and then something happens and you lose control so and I don't know we're gonna get into the CFI thing I think I want to play that Thunderbird tape Ethan if you could we'll just run that quick this was an accident that happened [Music] [Music] okay bad day for taxpayers 20 million dollar jet got put in the ground no one died he did punch out but I hope everyone could see that was a fairly capable aircraft f-16 with 30,000 pounds of thrust and I play this in a lot of my seminars just because I want to ask people and I'm asking you now I'm gonna still get some of this feedback going yet so Twitter you can use loss of control and just tell us what happened to that airplane why was he crashing an f-16 what occurred there loss of control see if we can get that but as he came down and he's trying to make that corner the plane was actually still descending as he's coming down and if I could eliminate one thing in flight training I think it would be the term stall speed because I think everyone gets confused with this thing stall speed have any words of wisdom on that for us rich Patti you guys deal with that all the time stall speed is never one place right I I really enjoy covering the airspeed indicator up and not giving if I start a student often in Decathlon I don't let them have an airspeed indicator for the first maybe three hours and then then all of them have the airspeed indicator we do all the stalls some some of the students are like how am I going to fly without that I've never done that I'm like well we'll just you know they forget about it pretty quickly but but we I totally try and get away from the idea of stall speed I'm you know and unless they ask for the Poh of the airplane ahead of time I don't even send it to them I don't want them to think about it so if but it's that's a really good point what do you think rich you know one of the most common questions I get and probably you too as well Patti when people come in is they've not flown a decathlon or an extra before one of the first questions out of their mouths are what's the stall speed and I'll throw a question right back at them and I say I don't know you tell me and that opens up the discussion because theoretically pilots understand or have been taught in that theoretical sense that any attitude any speed but yet their practical experience is in one attitude at maybe one or two speeds and so is it any wonder that that's what they correlate it to and then it's not until they come and see someone like you or like me where they get to see any attitude any speed for real yes so true and and you pull the star warning like we do you don't want that going off all the time I'm sure though they don't ever get a stall warning and they forget about it after the first light they most people don't even ask plate is totally a Meowth there's no airspeed there's no ball there's no stop there okay so I think what we want to probably do is rich you wanted to talk a little about the flight instructor and obviously we don't want to throw a flight instructors under the bus since we all are flight instructors but Ethan said a question coming in okay we've got another one thank you Bruce appreciate you chiming in says rich please expand on how the ball doesn't always indicate whether you're coordinated yeah you mentioned that earlier so uh I'm curious tell us more about that excellent I'm glad I'm glad the question was asked if you think about it the ball is an instrument like all other instruments and one of the things we learn about instruments is they all suffer from one free letter word called lag when we're in the process of dynamically maneuvering the airplane all of our instruments including the ball will have lag the Dutch roll is a perfect example you can't do a Dutch roll and stay coordinated by staring at the ball if you tried it everyone in the airplane would be sick in a matter of seconds so there's one in the i watch also picture take look at imagine picturing the slips kid ball in your airplane that curved glass in kilometer put it upside down where does the ball go so it's also bank limited with you exceed a certain bank angle doesn't work either and the third one probably the most important one is the closer you get to spin entry the less reliable the ball is and all of the spins approved airplanes I've ever done a simulated skidding based or final turn in I can always initiate spinaci with the ball on the line half in and half out and let's face it most of us fly a half a ball out all the time anyway okay I hear you flooded I hear people are flooding us with questions but we are not ready keep them coming hard I'm talking to him in here we got your questions we want to get to them so we'll we'll continue our discussion and we'll try to get you in there Thanks okay do you want to talk a little about the spin endorsement that people get in the CFI preparation rich I know that's a topic you're passionate on yeah so so of course all of us are the product as we said earlier the product of our our flight training and then hopefully by interacting with other pilots or other instructors and reading materials and listening to pilots talk we we can improve our knowledge and our skills base and of course there's a difference flying is a funny sort of thing because we allow people who want to have a different career other than flight instructing to park themselves in the flight instructor community to build time for another career and this is not to say that there aren't people who want to aspire to become an airline pilot who are not excellent teachers I'm not talking about them but there is a difference between people who enjoy teaching and who want to give back to aviation and time builders and time dollars are really the people who are in our community who are not interested at all in teaching and actually do a disservice to aviation and unfortunately there's lots of poor flight training going on out there patty sees it on a regular basis I see it other people who provide the training we do as well we've already talked about we have to spend a lot of time just going back to the basics with a lot of people before we can progress them in the training that we really want to get them to and one area is the spin endorsement and all flight instructor applicants are required to get a spin endorsement that says they are competent to teach and they have instructional knowledge and spins yet on average flight instructors receive an hour or less of ground instruction on stall spin dynamics and perhaps as few as two spin entries and usually one of those spin entries is done to them and but yet there's find off as if they're competent to teach it if all it took was two landings to be competent to teach landings we'd be soloing students after two landings so we can see that that's kind of an absurd thing when it comes to upset prevention recovery training there's actually some discussion going on that there should be an upset prevention recovery training endorsement for flight instructors modeled on the spin endorsement one and if we do that it would be not only ineffective and counterproductive for upset prevention recovery training but disastrous at worst patty do you have any thoughts on um kind of the the fire bomb I just threw out there I you know we get calls from CFOs who are scrambling to get their spin endorsement so they can get their CFI and and they ask how long it'll take and we say well we don't know you know how long it'll take we have to see how you fly and how you know proficient you are and some people get you know nauseated the first flight and are we gonna get you through that so on so forth and they're like whoa and I have the feeling that they shop around until they find somebody that can give it to them in an hour sometimes sometimes they're very good and you can get them done in an hour so over hour and a half but you know we'll say well it could take you two flights could take you three we don't know and it's I don't think it's taken very seriously like you said I think it's it's considered just sort of a sign off you know unfortunately and I'd like to take it even a step further and say okay every flight instructor not only needs to spin endorsement or real spin endorsement but they need upset recovery training what if we did that how much upset recovery training would you you know what is a good amount to get an inoculation so that you're safe what do you see as a reasonable I think five hours is a really good basic amount of time where you can you can get your spins done you can feel fairly comfortable spend you can do all your stalls and and feel comfortable with upset recovery in about five hours I think and a lot of times we keep and do five hours with us we'll say you have your spin endorsement you're getting to see if I let us sign you off or let us you know we'll offer it after they after the Mexican talk yeah I mean that's that's what I see but but this cool you know the see these people are just shelling out a lot of money for the flight training the schools that send them or the schools where they're getting there see if I often are accelerated not that that's bad but but the you know they don't have a lot of extra money to spend the schools aren't taking it necessarily seriously they're like dad just go get your sign off and it's it's kind of a mill you know they're putting people I don't think it's taken seriously rich do you think what what do you find three to five hours works for upset recovery yeah I agree with Paddy five to six hours the emergency maneuver training program has two modules each one is three hours of ground three hours of flying module one is stall spin awareness ends up anywhere on the order pretty close to twenty to twenty four different types of spinach and recoveries and they'll they'll learn their spin endorsement and then the second module second three hours is all the roll roll ups that recoveries we do simulated loss of controls failure scenarios and things like that we have people land using the trim only which is fun to do in the decathlon those people have never done that before so yeah five to six hours of and we're talking about I'm sure the same is true with Patty's program this is highly intensive training and you're gonna come out after five or six hours as if you had a hundred hours of training and 100 hours more of experience than you had when you started absolutely and so ladies and gentlemen you have two very qualified people to do that training and obviously you'd come out of it a much safer pilot one thing I want to mention that everyone can do for themselves you know because we want to give you takeaways tonight the course and I think Ethan you have a slide on it from AOPA essential aerodynamics you know rich rich speaks highly about preparation and patty says how much reading helps you this course and it's Wayne Phillips ironically who taught me at in Colorado in 737s Wayne Phillips is a wonderful instructor there's no Greek letters but they I used to teach a course in aerodynamics and they do it so much better because they have the video to do it it's a wonderful course it's in the resources when the end of the course comes and you take the quiz even if you don't take the quiz down the bottom is all the resources so what for that course they're rich has also provided a lot of resources in the bottom of the quiz they're a couple of papers so where do we want to go from here rich you want to tell us a little about your learn to turn initiative in community aviation oh they said we have a question coming and we'll go with that okay thanks for keeping them coming let's see what we have here all right Anthony Benjamin thanks how do I find a good place near me to get upset and recovery training well if you're in Idaho you could go to rich and if you're in Florida you could go to Patti but there are a lot of other ones Alabama and so what are some of the what are some of the ones that you that you guys would suggest around the country if you feel so inclined I tell people do IA C I'm sorry did I step on you Club is IAC and they have a really good directory of aerobatic schools but any aerobatic school can teach I've said well most aerobatic skills I think have upset training courses are incorporated into their courses they're good ones so that that's where I send people if if they're unable to you know to travel or there's nobody close to them and we can always recommend people to that does also bring up you know a topic I think we were going to touch on anyway is the difference between a CRO training and up set training I've had a two-day up set training course so I know the difference but a lot of people don't I see this on the online all the time what super how how should I get my upset training well go take an aerobatic course I know patty and rich you don't agree with this and I don't either what do you think I used to agree I used to disagree with it as well I used to feel that and I still feel if you know how to do aerobatic there are no unusual attitudes and it's all incorporated into a good aerobatic course but upset training and aerobatics is really quite so I became a convert of it and we have a totally separate upset training course then we do a aerobatic course as well and I know ritual get a lot more into it than that but basically an upset is something that happens to you and that you're not prepared for that you have to recover from where as aerobatic and you know something unexpected where's Eric okay enriched I know you're a master aerobatic instructor so that master certification is also used for aerobatic instructors right yes there is a separate focus if you do most of your training either spin related upset recovery training related or about aerobatic related you can you can qualify every two years to renew that designation it's voluntary I see so are we good to go here Russ we got more people flooding in or should we proceed with zero well okay okay the man on the board I just want to make sure that we summarize what we've kind of talked about so far so that people have a real solid take away and have we missed any items that you wanted to cover rich I know you had a pretty the learn to turn okay okay so what I heard from you guys we talked about turning stalls we talked about not trusting the ball you know kind of calming that inner engineer that wants to look at all the instruments and looking outside feeling the plane right slip and skid I thought I always thought that glider training was an excellent way of getting a feel for the plane I think that's where I learned a lot of my as far as controlling was you get in a glider if you're not doing it correctly you're not going to get any lift because you're spoiling all the lift by being one way or the other and you've got those ailerons way out there so I like glider training as a Miss atonic touch rolls are a very good way and all of these are predicated upon finding a good instructor how do you find a good instructor any any clues for that patty rich how do you know so one of the resources I think that you have online available to everybody is a document that I wrote on how to shop for upset prevention than an aerobatic training but basically you know you want to interview people talk to them you are in charge you are the you are the buyer and ask questions ask hard questions has to see a syllabus how are they going to progress you through there what are the concerns you might have do the techniques that you're learning can you apply those in an emergency in the airplane that you normally fly so as patty mentioned she has a separate upset recovery training course but but that really is the dovetail if people want to come out of a Cessna 172 or a Cirrus and take her course and go back to those airplanes all those techniques and the lessons learned to apply if they would want it then go on to aerobatic well guess what they've already done all the things that can go wrong now it's focusing on doing the maneuvers correctly well and I think I want to emphasize what patty said which is all of that maneuvering of the airplane control of the airplane is going to apply all the way up through turbines and airliners what was that the Air France was it a stall right from the flight levels into the ocean we've seen that all the way up through the big airframes where they don't understand what's going on so it's partly knowledge it's partly you know just being able to control the plane when the magic checks out so for people to understand that all of this training is transferable to anything that you fly just like you said I think sometimes people that fly heavy planes don't think that what we do in small planes is necessarily for them but it's very just it's all transferrable it's all basic aerodynamics thank you I appreciate that I agree a hundred percent so what we want to do is if people are out there this is anyone want a Zulu headset - should I take it home tonight I'm having a real hard time saying it's but Lightspeed's been great enough to donate a Zulu 3 headset we have it here ready to ship and one of you is gonna be the lucky winner so if you have registered for FAA wings tonight and you're on the list there's a phone number to call yeah I think Ethan has a slide for that also it's nine zero one six eight seven five two one seven we're gonna take the tenth caller for that the tenth caller will get the Zulu headsets we have some other prizes for the ninth caller rich do you have book you're gonna donate a book to write in some CDs yeah I think that book you know you're very humble about recommending it but it's one of the best books I've ever read on just basic aerodynamics the emergency maneuver all right look so we'll have all those a couple of things while we're waiting for the calls to come through if you would put up again let's see what do we got here Ethan the CFI toolkit I'll just sell some free items which is to say I'm a dpe and one of the most disappointing things I get when I go to a flight test as someone's not correctly endorsed for that test so I wrote this app it's available on the Android or on Apple and it's got all the endorsements it's got all of the requirements for all the certificates and it also has now put the the codes for the flight tests if someone's got erroneous items on that you need to endorse that's also on this so it's us safe CFI toolkit you can go to savvy CFI calm there will be an emulator you can try it out or you can just download it it's free and really all we're trying to do is increase the professionalism of the CFI so whether you're a member or safe or not go get it use it let me know how you like it and we'll improve it let's see what else we have here good ideas from you guys last words for our audience that are gonna go out there and fly their planes now and on turnin stalls what should we not do right yes so one thing and Patty probably gets questions like this too but a lot of times people will come in and they say well I want to take this training in case the airplane and there's a spin and so some of what we have to do is as a psychologist is kind of change mindsets a little bit the airplane didn't do this to you flying it's not something that happens to the pilot happens because of the pilot and one of the things upset training and expanding your envelope to meet the airplanes envelope really shows you is that your actions have performance consequences so so one of the things that you want to look away from this hopefully is aside from signing up for some training is learn to relax and allow yourself to experience different things flying related and see what happens if you do this the airplane is going to do that and so it's not a battle between you and the airplane it's you working with the airplane and so just learn to relax you know more than you think you know that's why when you cover up an airspeed indicator or slip skid ball yeah they're they're nervous initially but they actually know a little bit more than they think they know so take some credit for that that's wonderful advice okay I believe we have like any question I think we have a okay go ahead go ahead Dave we'll get back to in a second continue no I was going to say I think that all of those points are very important which is you know really trusting yourself in the plane and building that confidence and a good CFI is all about doing that as building competence and confidence in the student I think it's important to know what your limitations are too you know and we could talk a long time about you know knowing your limitations having a margin and then not pushing it too close to the edge because obviously somebody like Patti I don't think is ever gonna get herself involved in an unusual attitude recovered scared myself in the past I've done you know we all go through period you know we all we all push it a little hard sometimes learn from when you're verted twelve feet over the runway I'd say that's a critical situation that's what you can't mess up but other times you know too slow and a climb out and you know surprising yourself okay well we're waiting for these phone calls to come in to win the heads the headset from a Lightspeed aviation as well as the CDs and books we're gonna try to grab another question or two let's see what this first one is here Dominique purpura thanks in an upset training course like Patti offers can you use your own airplane for example a 180 - I asked because I want to know how to recover in my own aircraft okay there you have it no I would say no because we're gonna put you in upsets that are much more extreme than you'd want to put your 182 however the training is transferable so that what you learn with us you can take back to the 180 - if you need to for example when we do the skidding turn and and you and we get into a very you know serious upset let's say we like your inverted you don't want to do that in your in your 180 - the 180 is not really stressed for it but if you get in trouble and and you get somewhere in that regime you'll be able to recover from it so in that in that sense of space available does that help us for me I wouldn't want to take them out 182 and start right I wanted to just I'm gonna just jump on one quick question that I asked that we wanted to get the answer to and you know I would also encourage your CFI if they're good and they're been approved by rich stall to maybe try that pretty install with a little bit of a skid and so one of the questions was which rudder are we going to add to skid because I had a CFI candidate give me a skid to landing instead of a slip to landing so if as rich said you want to step on the sky or keep the nose out of the turn and then you've got yourself a fairly stable aerodynamic configuration called a slip and if you stall it in a full slip if it's a part 23 play and I would say at a nice safe altitude you're going to discover that nothing at all happens we take all our students on lesson seven after they do their turnin stall and we do a full slip bring it to a stall and a plane just sits there and kind of vibrates and starts going down at about eight hundred feet a minute and most people again are grabbing the seat they they're sure it's going to spin but it's not a pro spin kind of input provided your power is it I don't and that's a very important thing because if you add the power suddenly that's going to accelerate the air over the tail and it's gonna make that rudder much more effective and take it over the top so try a try to try to make sure you know what a slip is so when you say I'm gonna slip to land you're doing the correct thing did I get that right rich David yeah one one caveat on there David so for example you can take Pettit can go up and do a stall and a slip in a decathlon and it'll bob in and out a stall Buffett but it'll stay in the slip on track if you do some of the stalls you're describing there and other high wing airplanes like a Cessna 172 it won't spin but it'll start a kind of a slipping stalling bobbing spiral spiraling descent it's the lowing airplane that can be particularly problematic and it doesn't matter whether it's an a36 bonanza or the Cirrus or even the extra 300 those airplanes at the stall will tend to roll over the top toward a spin departure but but typically if you're on top of things you can just stop it by pushing forward on the elevator moving your feet back in neutral just catch it back in level flight so so it really does kind of depend on the geometry of the airplane the lowing airplane tends to be the one where you have a greater propensity to go over the top at the stall in a slip yeah I know my Champa has enough rudder it'll take it right over the top too but you know your Piper pa-28 sort of just sits there it's always amazing when as an examiner you know somebody's gonna do the power-on small and they pull it up to the moon you know the first time I saw this and I'm like I can't wait to see what happens anything just unloads and falls like a puppy dog and nothing happens in my dark really wanted to see that happen apparently we're having some problem with the either people don't want the headset we're up to collar number eight so if you want to jump in there and grab yourself a headset I think that Jenny says I have an eighth but nothing since so a few people are still on board there's still a chance to win a Zulu three Lightspeed headset wonderful piece of technology or is the phone's not working I'm not sure which is anyone out there having a problem getting true all right well while we wait for the for that winning call to come in here's another question all right Mike holiday huh Mike can you take a minute to talk about the Air France plane that stalled at Florida all the way down I believe this was last year how did they not how did they not get out of the stall and that is the question who wants who wants that one this is familiar with that one rich Pattie yeah there was an excellent article Vanity Fair by Wolfgang languishes son William and it was really really good and it went into great detail about exactly what happened and what what he researched and what he discovered from the answer before it was they sell the plane about 95 times I think maybe it's 92 times something like that so no they didn't they didn't realize what was happening they obviously hadn't had the right training and and they kept pulling back on the stick hoping they were like why does it keep going down when I'm pulling back was what one of the copilot said apparently one of the an off-duty fo got got in the left seat which was empty at the time for some reason and tried to push the stick forward because he realized what was happening because of the way the Airbus was configured the pilot and the right seat it didn't let him because the other guy was pulling back so it's just a conundrum it's a mystery as to why they didn't understand that apparently the testing show that they could have recovered as low as ten thousand feet by pushing the stick forward getting the nose down changing the angle of attack so it's very assist it's a systemic problem that that needs to be addressed and it's one of the problems that's why loss of control is such a big problem today and why it's been twice the number one cause of accidents I know there was another one wasn't there in a CRJ where two guys two young guys took it up no one else was on board they got to 41,000 because it was the flat for 100 club and they stalled it and they took it all the way into the ground with never recovered it also you know just a lack of understanding angle of attack you don't get that nose down make it fly what I'm hearing what I'm hearing from Jenny on the other side is that the phone lines are jammed so you guys are doing a great job you you've totally really mad yeah yeah trying to think what we could do Russ do you think if we had everyone email or what's what's the fallback position here now you gonna throw me under the bus huh yeah call Richards phone and I'd call rich and have him cheese well we have what are we we're up to caller eight and now the calls aren't getting through because the lines are lots without that's what Jenny's saying is said phone lines overloaded oh well they can also text that number she said so if you want to try okay net number text number let's give it a try I know people don't want to stay up all night trying to do this see if you can get it there's an incentive there that's right there is an incentive let's give them a couple of more minutes and see if I call or a text can come through and because it's a wonderful prize I mean I wouldn't mind writing you guys for it but deserving viewer one more thing I want to just talk to Patti and rich about you know and when rich said and it was a great word the rudder is used to cancel yaw I'm sure you've both seen this as experienced flight instructors and you too Russ you're rolling down the runway right we're ready to take off as soon as a plane lifts off it's got that you know you ought to the left and what's the first input the pilot throws in there right ale yeah isn't that like an you know right away I mean as a CFI you know right away what's going on they're not using a feet and so suddenly we're climbing in a slip there you know and then they might add some right rudder and they will never add left aileron and get the ball centered you know you know 152 we have a lot of 152 s in the club and if you don't get that thing tuned up you know as rod Machado says a 152 only climbs because the earth curves it just won't climb in the summer especially so you know try to look at your flying as a pilot and just really be sensitive to what's going on and think about what control you're using because a lot of time in the climb you know people are holding ailerons when they should be holding rudder in there and if you really pay attention I think you're going to be a better pilot if your CF is not paying attention they probably just had too many hours that day famous examines comet every CFI makes in his teaching career right rudder and the mating call of the CFI more right rudder students and you know regular general aviation aircraft understand that you know the left-turning tendencies calls be caused by torque and maybe slipstream but they don't understand P factor and when that nose comes up they don't understand how the P factor gets added into it even exacerbating the issue so more right rudder we've all said it okay we do we do have a winner apparently finally and she's correlating that against the list so I'm sorry for the delay everyone and really appreciate you two guys showing up for us tonight spending time both of your input very valuable and for me as a flight instructor it corroborates a lot of what I do when I hear Patti say she covers up the airspeed I was like I'm not alone and if it's a g1000 it takes a whole towel to make them fly the plane because really you know a lot of this stuff a lot of the technology that we've put into planes is a huge distraction from flying well VFR I mean it's wonderful information that's feeding all kinds of information into you but not throw out of the VFR stuff that we're doing eyeballs outside you know feel that plane as you roll watch the nose you'll know if you have enough Strutter okay you must get a lot of sheep go ahead I was going to say we're running a little bit short on time here shall we let Jenny just get in touch with the winners right and that probably is going to be better yeah because that's we wanted to sit here right yeah all of you that want master wings quartet we do have the on the on the pages that loaded up now on the launching page on the online ground skull okay Ethan says it's there so the page that you walked in on there's also now a tab populated if you click that then we'll take you to the quiz at the bottom of that quiz are all the resources also no that's not on the page not there yet didn't know about it okay okay that will be on the page within the next 30 minutes afternoon after we get off that link will be on the page the link that's on the page now is just to you know the fast team expands page I can give it to everyone click it so it's a bitly link so it's bi TI ly / loc - live with a capital L so LOC is capitalized so bi t dot ly / loss of control LOC well when caps - live with a capital L and they will populate it on the on the website so that it will take you to the quiz now what the quiz allows you to do is correct your answers so please correct it to 100% please use your FAA registered email because everyone has five emails but it has to be the one that you're registered with so that you get credit and it's probably going to take us about three to four days so it'll be into next week before we can bulk upload all this and you will get your master wings credit thank you everyone for staying with us and your patience and sorry about the phone lines somebody will get a text or an email and you will be the winner of the new Zulu headsets so enjoy the yep enjoy the snow up there in Idaho rich we're getting the same thing here in Ithaca and patty you can't enjoy the sunshine and say no Steen right what's freezing it got down to 60 today 60 mmm any less for us yeah I would just say Dave this is number three in the can these this webinar series is doing well as you know I've talked about we've got another one that we hope to be putting together next month so for everybody watching please watch the page gold seal ground school comm slash live and you can also catch us on our Facebook page where we announced these things to Patti and rich of course it's great to see you again and thanks for joining us tonight Patti give our best to Buddha and so will and Ethan back in the control booth that's will Flash Gordon and Ethan iceberg thanks guys for doing such a great job and we're gonna go ahead and wrap this thing up so good flying have a good night thank you this webinar was brought to you by safe the Society of aviation and flight educators and by the gold seal online ground school where instructors joined for free and monitor their students progress learn more at online ground school comm you

Channel: Gold Seal Flight Training

Views: 14,607

Rating: 4.7547169 out of 5

Keywords: Gold Seal, SAFE, Patty Wagstaff, Rich Stowell, FAAst, Loss of Control, Aerobatics, Air Show

Id: 4zp4hBurmd8

Length: 74min 46sec (4486 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 16 2017