Ghoul Attack Speed is MEANINGLESS

hello YouTube uh we in the process of a patch the PTR is there and everybody agrees that it's time to nerve ghouls especially ghoul frenzy currently that is addressed in a reduction of the ghoul attack speed and the timing of which frenzy is done we are of the opinion that that is not the correct way while we want to get away from the 99-minute timing push of frenzy attack speed is overrated and today we're going to show you why so we talked about this before um frenzy is giving attack speed and movement speed to the ghouls the attack speed buff has been increased in a previous patch a couple of years ago and a lot of people say that that is the reason why ghouls are so oppressive today we talk about why that is not the case and for that I got an Exel sheet by dond and I got donda on the call and together we will tell you why nerfing attack speed isn't the way to go so Dondo is on welcome mate hello hello back to talk about our favorite topic isn't it Go friend yeah never stops being a the topic of of the town so can you again um explain to the people who didn't watch previous explanations why that attack speed buff might be overrated by the general public yeah so in general the attack speed um well increasing attack speed in general basically works as reduction of cool down between attacks right that's like what what it does in Practical terms um that means that the most significant change you do by increasing attack speed is increasing damage over time the initial first attack will still hit instantly or the animation speed basically and then you have set then you set up a cool down until next attack and then that keeps on going and going until the DPS basically like the damage unit does over time is realized at some point in the future so the thing is um you have to do quite significant changes on attack speed before you see like large differences in how many attacks they will do within a reasonable amount of time damn that would be great if someone would have done the math uh how much that really does yeah and of course my math here might not be perfect so if people want to uh fix it there was something wrong with it then it's good as well but I wanted to look at like how does the in Practical terms how does the values uh of the attack speed changes would actually meaningfully change like amount of attacks how much damage it would do Etc between different values hence the setup you're showing on stream now the the legendary Excel sheets um Soul Apen would be proud of me I think can you explain real quick what you did and what we compare yeah so if you're trying to calculate what was what will this difference do you have to think of the first time a ghou attack is basically Zer seconds right cuz then you first hit then you start counting okay so how long until next attack and then next attack that's the cool down right between attacks and using that we can see the amount of attacks um you would get within a certain time frame um per different attack speed increase level so I basically ploted in for 35% which is currently what it would be with 30% and what it would be with 25% um and I think the way most meaningfully to look at like neres like this is that that what what it actually changes in most use cases is that it's slightly or it we don't have to say slightly that depends on the values right but it reduces or increases the probability of you getting that X extra attack basically so if you compare 25 to 35% at after 6 seconds it's like just above seven and just below seven right so if the game worked in that people always played in seconds and just like everything was revolved around that that would mean that it reduces the chance of the ghoul getting that one extra attack that does 13 damage right yeah but the point I would like say this values to especially when you look at 35 or 30% the amounts of attack you get within a time frame is very slightly changed like it's extremely I would say it's very small to the more or less to the fact that it becomes basically nothing and that is especially true since ghouls are fast and they never from what I I watched I think I watched like 15 or 30 happy games to check this and ghouls bar barely never attack more than maybe three max five times before they move and then attack again and I would say the the normal amount is probably more two to four before they reset and start attacking again so and when you start moving your units the cool down is reset right you're not still like keeping the attack rate going and then it's basically back to the first attack again so this change like changing attack speed has a less lot less impact compared to B basically changing any other type of value for attack damage so we're talking about a damage mitigation right now of two over 3 to four seconds yes that would be a practical implication that's nothing that will be nothing and a way I guess like if you want want to be if you want to defend this change more is to is would be to say but it slightly increases the odds of you not getting the fourth attack in if you only have still had three hence you would do 30 less damage right but that seems very theoretical and the differences between like in time between the third and fourth attack is so small that it it feels very Theory crafty to me to actually think that would be like meaningfully of a change it's under half a seconds difference right between the mount or half under half attack difference that also under half a second yeah so yeah we're talking about a DPS reduction of 0.5 pretty much which is also nothing the only way where this would be meaningful would be in base races where you attack buildings that can't move away from you usually yeah but I think even like when you're attacking buildings it's pretty rare for unit to attack more than maybe seven eight times before you do like a side movement or like something gets in the way but yeah that would be like the main the main difference of doing the like DPS decreases by attack speed it's just it's damage over time that would be like very stationary so it's probably building system obvious one yeah yeah so we are reducing the damage of ghouls which are usually seen as a problem by this little and reducing damage of head hunters which is not a significant problem in the scale of a ghoul by one per attack that seems a bit unreasonable yeah say that sorry say that again my mind I was reading chat as well I can't nerfing ghouls this little when we also reduce the damage of head hunters seems very unreasonable and this brings us back to like two other things a was the initial ghoul frenzy attack speed Nerf the reason for ghouls to be op and I think with these stats we can conclude that that's not the case yeah that is correct very good so players just find better usage of ghouls and got better at using Ghouls and created timings with ghouls obviously then this leads us to a second question how do we nerve ghouls then so that they are less oppressive because we all know the timing of 9 minutes we all know the late game stages of unad verse orc right now where we've seen 19 ghouls in the late game just destroying Lynn so we need to find another way to hurt ghoul frenzy yeah that is at least my suggestion because I think you need to change attack speed increases to such a big big like you at least have to go to 25% but maybe even go further before it actually becomes very meaningful in most cases I had this theory for for a while now that I think the freny upgrade uh like the freny buff for the research upgrade was uh very overvalued in how FR ghouls are used it's more to do with how people are starting to use them and other changes that have synergized um because yeah the damage increase is not that substantial even going from 25 to 35% so I mean I think there's two obvious directions you can go if the target is to reduce the pure power level of goals not just the timing like if only the you're interest in you can do research to Infinity basically right only address that if you want to reduce the general power level of ghouls I guess like you either have to go attack speed but even a lot more you could go damage but then like if you go just from the like base damage it's a pretty big change you don't have to do a lot in like damage values reduction before it becomes pretty significant CU you changed ghouls in the mid game early game every parts of the G usage then you don't Target friendy ghouls you target ghouls which maybe is not as problematic um then maybe you have to do like some counter you have to give them more HP cuz now like it becomes a lot more complicated so maybe the other thing that some a lot of people have pointed out is maybe to either not look at AG attack damage but look at movement speed yeah but that's the other obvious change I would say exact you want to do then you don't do the attack speed reduction I would say like like you don't do three you don't do changes along three dimensions but you you target one thing for the fren SE timing and you target one thing for the frenzy ghouls themselves yeah I agree because if you increase the cost that is basically just an increase of like you just delay it just like with the research time that doesn't do anything in the ultra late game uh movement speed is as we often times say the most important stat in the game plus this gets also booed by an horaa all the time so attacking ghouls in research time and movement speed seem to be the right thing to do not research time and attack speed as attack speed doesn't matter yeah you have to seduce it to such a big degree that it becomes maybe a bit like I don't know it's uh unveil and then that makes them a lot worse against buildings of course if you do a lot of attacks you you basically because that matters a lot more against stationary targets over a long time it will make substantially worse against buildings before they actually become worse against units basically right and that again depends on what your goal is here so that's right so that's our conclusion keep on nerfing ghoul frenzy but not an attack speed but movement speed yeah

Channel: Back2Warcraft

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Id: nkTeTSfTvco

Length: 11min 48sec (708 seconds)

Published: Wed May 01 2024