Four Annoying Gun Myths - with Bloke on the Range

oh I'll start because he's busy drinking thanks for tuning in to another video on both forgotten weapons and bloke on the range we are here in Switzerland and I was coming over and figured well we should get together and film something an excellent idea and drink something indeed so we have glen ross all the reserve a space ID single malt so which you brought I did very much pleasure this should be very tasty it is nothing better to go with scotch than discussing obnoxious gun myths something my channel does quite a bit and something that continuously herbs me so so many things of how did this nonsense get so stuck in so many people's heads and here we are dealing with myths seventy five years after their creation mmm there's something weird about the way that information was distributed well pre-internet yeah that if it got in the right place you could get sticky and you just we still today never hear the end of it and it's still sticky and a lot of these single sources you go to Wikipedia and they've got some information that you think's a bit myth like a bit iffy you click through to link and it's one of these sources yes so let us start with that famous one one that I have flawed to death and it's already on my channel and have my colleague the chap running in and out of the range from around wire my previous Fiat well it's a lien car to go with my top Italian m1 you beat that one to death and so I don't have to exactly thank you guys taking one for the team this is of course the myth of the m1 ping the idea that the m1 of course makes this cool distinctive Qi noise when it ejects its sheet metal clip when it's empty and it is well known that this will get you killed by the Japanese the Germans the Koreans the Chinese I think that's pretty much everyone that we fought well we Americans fought with the m1 but absolutely I'll get you killed on the streets right unless you're super clever at which point you can according to comments under my video so you can tap it on your helmet or throw it at your helmet or throw rock rock or heard that the floor or throw it on the rifle isn't the other one I heard is you could tap your mug on your helmet that was a particularly City one given that your mug is in a pouch underneath a water bottle so I'm not quite sure how you get to it and I tested this by tapping it and I mean you mug oh my god and it doesn't go any it goes bunk and someone in the comments was very very hurt that it was a Swiss Army poking the American one that I'm sure makes a total huge difference yes so of course the idea is if you make that pain noise when you're not out of ammunition the enemy will inevitably jump up from wherever they are and go to kill you but you'll be able to get them by surprise yeah there are so many things wrong with this idea well you know where to start you already ok dart middle and end on this yeah well let's let's start with this if you're close enough to even consider here in the ping you are in the middle of a pretty serious firefight and let's just say that a week or so ago when I was distracted by filming I forgot to put my headphones on and I fired around 308 from my minty Spanish mauser that was a mistake [Music] one round yeah imagine you'd be firing that rifle a lot and other people are firing rifles at you there's supersonic cracks from bullets passing relatively close how close are you going to be a lot of people say well you could be in the building that makes it worse yes by the gunner one indoor range yeah pistols noisy yeah yeah and if you're in a building maybe there's a decent chance that the guy in front of you has a Thompson submachine gun that he's touching off in there too yes so yeah the first problem is no one's actually really gonna hear that thing in combat conditions mhm and then the second problem is the idea that let's say somehow magically they do they're going to jump up and get to you before you can reload Oh before your buddy who's next to you because this I mean this this isn't Call of Duty on the Xbox here wait what did i sorry I went there what's that a game I thought that was like a accurate reenactment of the entire war mmm well that would explain a lot that would ease I can reload an m1 pretty darn fast yeah we did a few a few shot to shop trials and various videos and pop from a few copy fumbles I left in the videos we were looking at four to six seconds a family one around six seconds a nice clean one from a pouch when people accuse me of doing it from a table or something but it was from a pouch you rip open the pouch whack it in tap the ball forward I mean this is banking that's sort of right yeah you're not running very far the idea that you could get out of a hidden position or a covered position cover any substantial amount of ground is ludicrous the whole thing is yeah who even came up with this stupid idea the first written reference to this that I found on my crap I did a video specifically to crowdsource this and I had some sorry I camera I'm off with names I can't remember who it was I think it's red Josh someone something comes to mind providing me with a whole list of links to Second World War II a Korean War a lessons learned document sort of sharing the knowledge where where soldiers would would write tips and tricks of how the enemy operate how we can operate better has all sorts of things like offered the one there's even an office of the moaning that the men are not using their slings even when they could because who'd want to tie themselves into a rifle in combat and limit the movement anyway we have found the earliest reference and strangely enough it's the one mentioned by Wikipedia as muscles is so remarkably they sort of got something right although wrong but they got the best they go best source for the wrong fact yeah the right source of the rome fact and it is roy f Dunlap ordinance went up front I'll be honest that made me a little sad because there's some really good interesting information we're done that's a cool guy yeah and it's a shame to discover that he's the one who started this nonsense yeah there's a lot of interesting stuff to those who haven't come across Roy Dunlap he was a gunsmith in civilian life and at the start of the war he joined the US Marine Corps and he spent part of the war Gunn plumbing and part of the war was an industry money was just one of the islands he landed in fishermen he'd got his back up about something it was sapien might be psychopath it's it is someone I'm sure but then you went on to North Africa I think what happen was first okay I think he was that he was there first he and then he he got his back up about gun plumbing and decided he'd just be a normal infantryman for a while so his the things he experienced personally are quite interesting there's all sorts of stories about maintaining rifles in the jungle with guys being left in in contact with the enemy too long corrosive ammunition the ndm-1 rifle m1 yeah yeah that one said she apparently I should be pronouncing it in québécois fashion and I'll attempt as go home hmm there we go anyway but particularly the DM ones were particularly adapted to deal with crows ammunition the the the the piston head is stainless the gas piston is the gas plug I'm not sure certainly the early yes I was going got much got problematic but the VAERS were apparently horrible absolutely horrible and they weren't well-suited to corrosive ammunition and maintenance in the fishin to being horrible yeah that's a very mean opinion that mr. Mike's on the boobs anyway um what mister doesn't up yeah the thing about Dunlap is he really knew his stuff he was a professional gunsmith and when he had hands-on personal experience with some of this stuff he was writing really insightful interesting things normally when you get this sort of first-hand account it's from a guy who is just a basically a volunteer or a conscript infantryman and I hate to say it but most of those guys really didn't know anything about the guns that they were using and so we get these first-hand accounts that take one anecdote and extrapolate everything from it where a guy like Dunlap knew enough about guns to recognize what was relevant and what wasn't the problem comes when he starts talking about things that you didn't actually see him yourself but heard someone else to say yeah so this seems to come to page 294 for those who wish to for quality very tastefully bound book don't know so I shall politically correct to size this the Japanese on one canal learned that the ping of an ejecting m1 clip meant a momentarily empty rifle and American infantryman died because of it Aberdeen was in a slight furor for a while trying to silence the noise make plastic clips etc there's two problems with this one he wasn't on Guadalcanal as far as with me and if I've interpreted his dates that he's mentioned in here correctly he was in fact in North Africa when the campaign was being fought in well canal the second thing is that if Aberdeen had ever made any form of plastic like even as a one-off people would be 3d printing them yes I'm sure some website somewhere about weird obscure guns would have had one of those classic Aberdeen pictures of their experimental had three of their experimental plastic clip all of the Aberdeen experiments from the period from the banal up to the crazy stuff where they modified an mg42 to take a belt vertically and all those other crazy prototypes and m1 that takes two clips you know more than me I've seen the rifle they did cool yeah but they didn't make plastic clips no I don't even think there's enough room for plastic clips made by the plastic technology of the day yeah that would be yeah well what they didn't do it that's a fantasy he made it up but he didn't make it up he probably heard it from someone yeah who he thought was an authoritative source and so he repeated it in his book but no now it's all over Wikipedia it's all over everywhere it's all over books as I read as a kid in the pre-internet right days repeated over and over again and it was even brought to the attention of the US military and we know this right because there's a 1953 office of my head sort of survey lessons learned document done by the US Army Post Korea dealing with the various aspect of various weapons do we like this do we like that should be a one B or two bales three big R's why should we have to pay us because one of them is gonna be out of action is any one time people thought huh weird but we know it was such a fantastic program things like that bonus and want and there are there are two specific things relating to the m1 and noise and they asked us sort of false dichotomy question why they give two options that aren't really necessarily related and that it was is the m1 ping and aid to remembering to reload because I mean if you're panicking on a range you feel the difference between the repo you feel that the bolt doesn't go forward it feels different but if you are paying more attention to the enemy than to your own rifle yeah you might not notice it and quite a few answered yeah it's a nice little it's loud enough when it's right in front of your face right and it's there's visual cue yeah I think it comes flying out of your gun thank goodness for the chain because I wouldn't have notice it wasn't counting and so they asked is it an aid to knowing you're out or is it a hindrance because the enemy take note of it and now it wasn't zero that said no we think it's a hindrance because the enemy take note of it but the vast majority will say the other didn't care or and honestly the guys who said yes it is a problem that's an example of those first-hand accounts that are unreliable because what probably happened is they had a coincidental I fired my last round and the gun went ping and right then the other guy came around the corner popped up right when their their accounting intent to something that was actually a coincidence there's a lot of coincidence particularly you got a lot of events happening and there's a lot of confusion and you've got tunnel vision and and your life is literally on the line you're going to you're going to very vividly remember things that seem to be important yeah and the other one regarding noise though was the safety catcher yeah now the safety capsule and then one is particularly noisy it kinda is it's it's a click but it's a pretty loud abrupt yeah well the sort of the hole that that part of the receivers kind of Hollow and there's a metal plate over it and it's got a big heavy powerful date on it so that you don't accidentally knock it off because I mean it's the air of people walking around with their fingers in there in the trigger guard so they put big fat spring on that but that big fat spring means that when you push it forward when when when it goes over the little little kam hump it goes look yeah actually quite loud and there were a surprising number of people who responded yeah actually this is kind of a problem because in an average situation when all is quiet it's suddenly you've got half a dozen plus guys going cut cut cut cut cut link or all on one side of a track see that is plausible yeah it is you're not in a firefight there's not bangs going off all over the place already if you Kennedy is deliberately trying to listen for signs of people young around the in principle and unless you've been in a firefight in the in a few hours previously you're not got ringing in your ears or or any of the other problems that seems a lot more plausible and indeed if I remember correctly more people answered yeah that's an issue than answer now that yeah so uh so thank you for what you and your viewers for tracking down the origin point of this really obnoxious persistent myth if anyone has a written trace earlier and I said this on on the video when I crab sauce I really want to find out about it my generally my policy is it's not about being right or wrong about ultimately finding out what the truth is absolutely yeah and then say okay cool and if it means you change your mind change your mind there's not gonna there's very little chance for much earlier than that because that was written in 46 v6 we didn't really start actually using the thing in combat until 41 42 yeah I mean unless there's another lessons-learned magazine that didn't come out and write that isn't listed under under my under my video where I crowd-sourced this then this must be patient zero for those who follow you yes but I think that's an excellent metaphor there mm-hmm ya know should we use Dunlap to segue into number two which is possibly his his fault as well go for it so apparently the Bren large machine gun is too accurate oh you mean the Brennan sniper rifle it's an automatic sniper right oh yeah because they wanted to put a scope on the side and everything yeah you just single loaded it has the magazines in the way and you can't see your sights with a single motives and it's basically a sniper rifle oh yeah yeah to accurate that is one I also hear all the time it's repeated that yeah the Bren was not an effective machine gun because it was just too darn accurate yes my weapon is too accurate said no one ahead now you fired a light machine gun I find a commercial Brian and a real proper Bren I've fired a bunch of light machine guns I think anybody who has actually fired a machine gun will understand and recognize that this story is complete horse hockey because you cannot even if it was let's say it was an act to literal laser beam perfectly exactly the same place every time the bouncing around that you get from a light machine gun when you fire it will give you a nice open coma fire yep it is just I you know the m1 ping I think has some level of plausibility to it that well I guess if you didn't really think about it you could see how that's true the only way that this Bren gun being too accurate myth is even remotely understandable as if you have never fired a light machine gun before yeah yeah and you brought up a really good point when we were discussing this earlier then if it even if all of these things were wrong and it was too accurate there's a very simple solution just hold it looser and it'll bounce around more and you'll get a wider cone of fire yep no once again you have done way more in-depth research on this than I have and you dug up one of the British training manuals a bunch of them yeah which talked about what they were actually trying to go for with the Bren and it was it was accuracy yeah this is here is the next 48 so it's the post Second World War I've got a bunch of others from the early days why does that surprise me you think I'm like yeah so what was interesting to me there's a little diversion it's so it's not only about the weapons themselves it's how they use the ergonomics of them the ergonomics of carrying things for them and I've been working on in fact I have a house buildings 450 foody in front of e German it's basically a training pamphlet for the infantry which has got a load of an mg34 was it early for this 1941 so it's still empty 34 doctrine how it was how the rifle the weapons we use doctrinally how the ammunition is carried that's one of the ergonomics of carrying the image this this soft fact fascinates me it also shows that one is a huge nerd I find it fascinating too in some ways it becomes more interesting than the guns themselves fairly quickly to so to a certain degree because that's a lot of what dictates how the things were actually use yeah even if there were variations from them and most of the armies would would modify their techniques as they as they went along I mean if you if you look at the British LMG manual from right but the adoption they've got a completely different distribution of ammunition around the section than the later and then this one here 1948 is the distillation of everything they learned during the Second World War and it's also a lot longer because the the second warpath was tended to be a bit shorter a quick get it all printed out to people so they can have to have time to read it before they get shot yeah so the post-war ones ten manuals tend to be rather more extensive rather more informational and and they make the point that it does have a narrow cone of fire which means you have to aim it properly you can't count on just this this random burst effect hitting your target for you yeah yeah effectively you want what you want to hit at the center of the kind of fire and interestingly there's notes on zeroing them whereas a rifles in British practice unlike German practice rifles were zeroed to the individual okay provided they could shoot at least an 8-inch group which isn't that impressive but this is we're talking a conscript army I think we'll get into some accuracy yeah in a moment but the Bren had to be zeroed so that any member of the section could fire it and it wouldn't be too far off unless they were personally - for office from had to be zero for an average for an average man in the section and they were individually zero and mg 42s there's no provision for it but the kind of fires kind of yeah I did bowling pin shoot with a 93 actually 100 meters and the kind of fire 100 meters was ever so slightly larger than a bowling pin so I should be three and four round bursts that worth splashing outside the bowling pin but doctrinally they expected a good shot with a Bren on single shot to shoot four inches okay which is that is really quite good that's basic bits only a little bit less accurate than a sniper rifle yeah I'm the the British sniper standard was yeah well turning off five inches right that's 200 and but four inches was the above-average standard because the the the British gauged grouping standards to gauge how good people were you are either a four-inch grouper an eight inch group for a 12 inch pretty burn if you want to target a grouper you had to keep doing the needle training until you were you were in the kitchen yeah because until you could groups 12 inches you couldn't keep all your shots reliably on a 48 inch target at 300 yards okay well they were what they were looking for but once you once you switch to leave it to fun it just goes way out the window and I haven't got the right manual with me but the the sprite when finding bursts of a bread is wider than the videos which makes perfect sense because the Brennan's fired off a bipod and the Vickers is fired off of a very heavy very solid very precisely adjustable tripod hmm the Vickers is the one that if any of this myth were true and you'd expect it to be true about the Vickers where you would imagine and this I can actually see some plausibility and because on a Vickers tripod that guns locked in place yeah and so you don't have the ability to just freely swing it like you do with a light machine gun and I can see it being someone being I can see someone complaining that the cone of fire is too small and it's I have to be turning knobs and adjusting wheels in order to move slightly to hit my target but you don't hear about that in fact you hear nothing but praise about the Vickers so where this concept came from is according to Wikipedia in a board moment I was looking something up on Wikipedia and it repeats this bring-bring wise Bren gun is too accurate reference click no Dunlap no and he says that the lightweight mark three of my four grins were intended to improve the kind of fire by I'm having shorter passwords they were lightweight versions for being lightweight any waiter yes and stuff and then when they converted them to 7.62 NATO Coast war they put long barrels on them so irrespective of what the receiver was marked at Birth on a complete side note this is also a hint that a good case study in one should not take other take things at face value that one does not actually know mm-hmm if if see the thing with Roy Roy Dunlap is if he had ever actually done any serious shooting with a Bren he had ever he had all the knowledge and experience to be able to give it a proper assessment and understand that this notion was complete bollocks yeah you're starting to get me using British trousers go so I was impressed impressed yeah it's a shame this is so much interested by the book yes read the book buy the book read the book it is is brilliant book it's it's fascinating it's memoirs and technical information but then he's got a photo of an mg34 that's not of an mg34 is of the soliton predecessor and i probably can't find it right now but there's all that there's also some funny funny funny little errors going on there but it's worth it for his man was what he did during the war and then the gunsmiths related stuff where he was genuinely expert I mean yeah all sorts of fascinating things like he landed on Saipan or wherever it was with a sea stocked 1903 Springfield she gave himself he did himself hold of the ship basically yeah he went a nut and found one and stopped it up properly I think that's worth because according to him and this is this is information that is entirely believable because it's well within his personal sphere and he has no reason to lie no reason to repeat his say cuz it's not anything he knows and it's his area of expertise as well yeah the the most of them most of the 93 Springfield's were badly stocked up and that's about the worst thing you can have for a rifles accuracy is a badly stopped up rifle people forget that the the wood metal interface is the most important thing to accuracy once you've got a barrel that is of reasonable quality and we are now going to change the battery in the camera we'll be right back alright so we're back so back willowy badly stocked rifle at least I think Android done that went ashore with a scant C stock on his own rifle because he went and found one put it in and did it right yep only there was a shortage of Springfield clips cuz we're right on the changeover from Springfield to mm ones so he says he went to show with five rounds in the rifle to charges of five rounds each in his belt and then pockets stuffed with loose ammo fantastic you know that's the sort of thing that the official history doesn't really tell you yes yes yes and it sort of renders typically its non-disposable something yes yeah you know that's kind of like what we have sometimes today when you're trying to shoot something with weird expensive rare clips and you're like I got one don't lose it yeah you step on it you're over educated seem to be yeah alright also I have run out of scotch yep you haven't look what I will in a tick oh my goodness you have run out of scotch what tragedy was not immediately remediate we're going through the sampler pack here yep the next one we have is a 1995 what appears to be a 15 year mm-hmm Glenn runoffs yeah apparently the 1995 is no longer available in large format it's only a so said the guy that sold it thanks absolute [ __ ] that's rather nice it's certainly different to the previous one mm-hmm it's less sweet than the last one yeah let's just say this is like a famous grouse for the pages of medicine or we know what Famous Grouse is oh you have to suffer Famous Grouse up well if you look down like the bottom shelf of liquor store when the UK's on the middle shelf so where were me he went ashore with insufficient strength eclipsed yes one of many very interesting cool pieces little tidbits of anecdote that when in proper context are very interesting to read yeah so well the one thing that we forgot to mention about the brand hmm was not only did the British specifically they wanted it to be an accurate gun and they made light of the fact that it was accurate they emphasized that when shooting it you must hold it very tight in order to exploit that accuracy yep they were very insistent on tight holding so that so that the group that so that the the cone of fire was tight and was effective exactly the opposite of what they would have said if this too accurate crap was actually real to the point what they were still teaching a very oblique position with the rifle but though teaching you're very straight on the position with the Bren so you get behind it get your toes into the dirt and yeah I mean the one thing the only one thing I don't like about the Bren is that bipod should really lock because it sort of locks I mean mg42 bipod is just a horror is just it's just this floppy horrible piece of pressed steel and it's sort of if you're if you're shooting it off the bipod you've got to choose where do I start leaning the bipod so is my first gonna track high right oh no or is it gonna track high then low and you've got to choose one you've got three buttons and you often see in in combat footage that they rest the barrel jacket on a log or something so that they don't have this thing right Allen and by the way one of the neat things about a got a recoil operated gun like the 42 is that's basically a free float tube you're not quite no quiet but you're not getting the deflection that you would if you were actually resting on the barrel itself not that it really is that much of a difference with a rate of fire like that weights follow that in a cone of fire like that and the cone of fire that doesn't even justify zero herbal sights no now you're getting a little harsh I think the 42 is are quite good it's great as a GPMG it's super it's totally clear why the Jones and others still use it it's a it's a superb GPMG let's not get into the LMG versus GPMG thing but it is a generalist right it is fire it is but the bipods a shock and the brim pipe lot half blocks you can push into it a certain amount but if you push too far it folds and and then you'll um yeah that's problem I've seen a range someone let me to it ends up with the bipod rifle no no no but you've got to learn just how much you can you can you can push into it but it's like a firebrand offhand I can't find energy 42 or find this things are heavy yeah really heavy you could do it if you were pressed if you were stacked like golf well if you had enough Russians charging at you you'd figure it out but you look at that pretty big yeah yeah so our third topic a third annoying thing that people still say to this day that is totally not true what's particularly got to when we go up to let's take a bit do let's do accuracy of service rifles in general with a few comments on particular ones that there are particular incorrect informations abounding and on now aside from a few exceptions with an iron sighted service rifle bolt-action or semi auto mobile to issue we're talking a normal accuracy of four to five ish mins of angle so those are those speak mower that's sort of four to five inches so a hundred yards if you think in metric google does good conversion for yes 2.5 centimeters to the inch so five x 2.5 12 and a half centimeters at 100 meters eyes 91 meter meter yard the person of the government look this is a standard of accuracy that in today's modern firearms market would be considered one step up from pure garbage mm-hm you know if anyone the the typical new rifle buyer if you go out and buy a hunting rifle and discover that it shoots four or five minute of angle you would take it back and demand to know why they sent why they sold you the defective broken one yes whereas if your Gewehr 98 or car 98 be the long ones shots four to five minutes of angle it would be actually on the towards the good side of average yeah this is totally normal and particularly for a conscript army where there's no massive focus on marksmanship there's not gonna hit anything anyway anything was it's like disagree I mean you know be boring each other with agreement right we had a little little disagreement over this you might my view is the four-minute angle plot or fortified mins of a dollar if we want to be a bit generous and allow the Italians and the Russian car whether that's a four to six anyway to to your tastes this sort of thing normal vision is 20/20 which is means that you can resolve a pattern with one minute of angle so if you make a letter the letter e on your on your opticians chart on the 20/20 line or for those in Europe the 1.0 line the the bars of the e have a resolution or one minute angle I never actually you know that's really cool some petitions what you're gonna say I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure on that but yeah normal vision is resolving more minute of angle could you could you add a reasonable combat distance see a reasonable combat target the is less than four months of angle and see it well enough to aim at it with the iron sights of a second all right well we happen to know that they were shooting the qualification was six hundred meters or six hundred yards so clearly they need a ride from capable of hitting whatever I happen to think of at six hundred yards right it's a question of whether you can see it and if it's a target on the range it is a target on a target frame versus actual moving hiding hiding darting helmets wearing camouflage target that's a different that's a different matter it's such a different matter and I think a lot of people if all you've ever shot at bull's-eyes it would be it would behoove you to get out there and actually take a look at some things that would be legitimate military targets yeah I mean when I shoot competition we use we use basically silhouette steel targets but we don't paint them yeah and that's on a standard dirt range and it's a fixed target we know where it is and we know exactly what shape it's a normal distinguishable shape even those targets can be excruciatingly difficult to see and that's at less than 200 yards yeah and the idea that that you're going to be firing at anything exceeding anything over 200 yards is really extremely rare it's and and at 200 you may shoot at it but you won't hit it yeah if you are a standard infantry minute ya know that said our disagreement is I would really kind of like to have a rifle a bit better than 5 or 6 minute of angle why would I because it does as a military yeah because it does give the few guys who are able to exploit some accuracy in their rifle I'd like to have have that capability we we are above average shot so both of us and that's and that's the difference and this is interestingly something that the French got right but that's probably a topic for another time yeah I really love a two minute of angle right I would love it okay so you won't particularly feel had an aperture site but just little divergence back back to the four minute eight minute yeah twelve twelve minute grouping Sam divergence back to our actual point yeah it's it's it at standard categories for guys who could only shoot twelve minute of angle and that's prone right yeah I'm a friend of a friend of mine who's Spanish did did his military service as it as it was in Spain and again they expected with it with a 70 health you qualified it twelve inches that he said thirty centimeters and hundred meters that was that was deemed deemed militarily adequate well though that's what they sent me I'll so you also have to actually do the rifle to fire all the rounds I guess I must have had lots of time so yeah affect effectively it also seems to be relatively easy to build a rifle and cost-effective to build a rifle to a four to six four to five minute of angle standard it gets exponentially difficult to go beyond that and we're talking with World War one at World War two manufacturing standards yeah yeah today it's much easier because we have much better machine tools or rather we have much better controls on machine tools and remember everything that every gun company is making its making it peacetime yeah this isn't wartime rush production it's certainly not you know we're actively being bombed carpet-bomb while we're trying to make rifles there's him you know your average modern hunting rifle has a lot of advantages going for it yeah and we wouldn't tolerate now what was tolerate and what a big problem in wartime was not the metal it was the timber there were shortages of timber it had to be dried the Germans played with laminates the Brits tried but because the the thing with the Brits died version is that we had at the time obligations in every single plant acting sewn on earth from the the Arctic wastes of Canada to hot and dry in Africa to hot and damp in India and the Far East and we needed things that would work adequately in all of those and okay the Germans had it pretty hot and pretty cold in Russia but laminates their laminates talks held up to that interesting diversion and your diversion one of the problems with the stern Gewehr hmm was that the stocks would swell yeah in the recoil spring went into a hole in styie the stock would swell up creep down on the recoil spring which then couldn't compress properly and the gun would stop working hmm because of the wood yeah wood is a big deal what is a big deal and on a number four the only two parts that had fitted is the wood to metal avoid bolt heads were only just for an if for a normal infantry rifle they weren't particularly fit for the sniper rifles they were in principle very finely fitted but then the the big deal with listen with it with the with the number 40 sniper rifles is that they pulled off the rack rifles the particularly well at the first stage test now this was a a 100 feet test okay five shots from a machine race and it was ladies that did this primarily originally with a sighting telescope rested on but later that just they got good enough to do it through the ions and they had to shoot four out of five shots into a one-inch by 1.5 inch rectangle 1.5 B but it's cool because rifles always spread a bit more vertically than laterally and then 10% were tested it so one by one and a half inch sounds pretty good until you realized that was a hundred feet yeah which would be 28 yard 28 meters 30 yards but in any case during three-year during wartime the number that were tested at it changed post-war I've got a post-war manual that is it's quite clear that post-war it was 10 of 10 shots of 10 percent of the rifles into 18 by 18 inches square six hundred yards off top of my head wartime I think they tested ten percent to two hundred which had to go to have up through a four minute remember oh I'll look it up and I send it to you we'll put it at the bottom the the point we're getting at here is this was the sniper rifle and it was being held to a standard of about three minutes a bangle turn the sniper rifles were all stocked up by Holland Holland they got walnuts toxin no matter what they were any of them that did the particularly well in the one inch by one and a half inch test so a particularly tight group in that you remember I mean I rag on three round ribs all the time but 500 not necessarily much better they are definitely better but not necessarily that much but they they pulled the good ones off the rack they sent them to Holland and they got a first choice good season presumably pre-war presumably walnut stock they were finally stopped because they had to have a fight group our tutors were rejected even though in principle there's no there's no real difference and for the infant rifles they had to hold the same standard but the the issue is his is timber and there is aside from the number force that were free floated as a wartime emergency measure which I believe were mostly American ones and the lend-lease wants the the British inspectors have no rights when when the British government was purchasing from Savage we had inspectors in there as soon as it was lend-lease number for Mach 1 stars were given an official US designation on paper okay we'll take what we don't want and it's cheaper free so you'll yeah you'll you get you get it and I don't know off the top of my head and I thought I've never seen a reference in a book as to whether the lend-lease savage and other US manufacturers were subject to the same accuracy standards yeah we may not have been they may not have been simply because as anyone who has sport rised a number for or has got their grasp out Rass patent and removed the muzzle bearing promoting before will no they don't shoot anyway here as well for refloated because with a barrel up light they benefit massively from even muzzle pressure and this is something I'm I've mentioned in the TFB video a bit shown in a video on my channel as well and a lot of clever goes into the stocking up of making light military barrels shoot straight the French took that very seriously to the point that the screws that you have to take out to remove the stock the four end on the MAS 36 have special screws in them so that you can't take it apart yeah because you the soldier are not qualified to properly replace that front end and embed it incorrectly and in the British I mean the British military and I think the Germans as well you were not allowed to take the rifle at all of the metal because by taking it out putting it back in you are loosening it and that is one of the unfortunate floors with the m1 breakdown bed young system it all I'll do a video in this at some point on the one hand is mechanically awesome that you can have this short little receiver and unleash and this and this incredibly clever clamping system but the problem is that every time you need to clean the rifle and recruits will be cleaning they're taking their rifles out all the Consular constantly every time you take it out you loosen the bedding yep and at a certain point in the metal slides in the bedding and done that actually has an anecdote about qualifying with some sloppy nasty m1 that shot this horrific a large group but no one was expecting soldiers to shoot tight groups so he qualified with a nasty sloppy and one that should have been restocked a long time ago yeah so so our point is people think they because we can make very accurate rifles today and because you can squeeze most of that accuracy out of them without too much difficulty from am interest at a shooting range on a nice sunny day that thus during World War two people must have had the same certainly snipers would have have the same quality when aim capable of the same standards the reality is no shoot first off shooting in any sort of real fuel conditions much less combat conditions is very different from shooting off of benchrest the rifles they have we're nowhere near as accurate as the rifles that we produce today and I would say on the best day a really good sniper is it's going to have this low level of a typical avid civilian enthusiast yep they shouldn't get in over Al's right they didn't do a lot of practice that your standard infantry we're either volunteers or conscripts who had minimal history with firearms even in the United States where we'd like to think that we have this fantastic great tradition of civilian marksmanship and even then well you can go to a shooting range today and see it mostly the people out there shooting aren't actually all that good and they didn't get very much training before going into combat because there simply wasn't time in fact we talked about this earlier today there's only one group we can come up with we're a military really took this concept of we just had a bad experience in a war we need good marks seriously good marksmanship standards on our infantry and then actually did it it was you guys it was the British for about 15 years between the end of the Boer War and basically when the BEF got massacred by artillery in World War one yeah those guys it was a professional army they had serious standards they had lots of practice time and they had guys who were lifelong soldiers and they were very insistent that the point of the training was to to achieve a high average standard of shooting not just to train a couple of shots right yeah so it was really it was to get the average level up yep and it showed it because in the retreat from former all great British ultimate victory start with a retreat or a massacre and the First World War was no exception and obviously we appreciate when when when the Americans decided that having their shipping shunt sunk by uh by the Germans it's not so much fun and maybe they should come come join in too but you look at the retreat from moms and you look at you you you look at the veteran Scouts on both sides the the BEF will massively massively outnumbered they didn't have a particularly high issue of wishing known as higher than myth has it but there's have not been a focus of the British military the way it had been with the Germans no it's a funny thing with the Brits were often an early adopter we were very early doctor the maxim gun we had an awful lot of Maxim's in forty-five five cents on four fifty I was gonna say you're an early adopter of the maxim gun you bought a maxim gun very early hey hey Maxim I'm gonna use the Millennial conflicts yeah massively in colonial conflicts and then by the time while one was running I really used them fairly extensively in the ball or I still was to it to a certain degree by World War one it was not cricket to European warfare really right but keep imagine giving it loads of the five seven seven four fifty maxint that would be an experience that would be yeah experience if anyone's got one the closest thing you're going to get I have a an acquaintance I knew who has since passed but he was working on a maxim gun an 11 millimeter Gras close enough which and I think he was probably gonna try and get it running at forty five seventy as well yeah if he could get the links and uh mmm everything's sorted but ever did I know someone has the old access to northern felts and things in there in the various odd calibers yes during the time mostly fulfillment and third one one day I shall persuade him to let me bring the cameras along yeah yeah anyway aside from the BEF in the run-up to World War one nobody else put in the the serious time and effort to create real marksmanship and then even with the B if you look at the the number of rounds per you issued in training compared to model to the modern amounts of ammunition it's still pitiful but you must understand that the two hundred fifty odd rounds the the the the pre-first World War British soldiers got was masses compared to what their Continental conscripted cousins got yeah absolutely masses way more than the US to us marksmanship standards a great one to look at is the the Army in the late 1800s between the Civil War and the turn of the century things like the Gatling guns were often totally not used because they didn't have enough training ammunition of Wadud mm to even fire it was we have so little ammunition that we'd rather give every soldier five rounds for the year to practice with then take 200 to let one guy get a try at this gallant gun yeah it's it's it's something people underestimate always is its amounts of amounts of ammunition for training yeah and when I was doing this preparation for comparing Second World War UK versus versus Germans the cheese for shift here they don't even say how much training how much ammunition is available training they say how it should be split up but they say that the Ministry will tell you how much ammunition you've got for training and the that means not much not much and they did through three types of practice they did what's called school shooting so if bull's-eye type of stuff but sometimes on a slightly figuri target but still on ring targets affects sure she's sense or so combat school shooting which is not specifically defined it seems to be something that was organized more at local level and then defect she so fighting shooting which is more in the field but the number of practices they've got here there and this is pre war this is motor Eve or everything's for with updates up to about 37 38 it's not an impressive number of rounds and it's an incredibly unimpressive standard of shooting required pass not something mission basically if you could get three rounds out of five in the black of the target and about that depending on what year of service you were at 150 or 200 then you were you were good to go well all we really care about is that you're able to carry the ammo cans for the mg34 because that's what does the bulk of the fighting yeah and if you if you add up if you look at the number of people in a in a German infantry squad and add up the theoretical firepower the machine gun has more rounds per minute than everyone else but together but it easily yeah even firing it the more relaxed rate yeah and then in any case just to as a point on general accuracy and I'm sorry this is in metric so all those who think in inches we've done some interests of yeah let's use a metric that's our letter Canadian and if the Continental Brothers we have a table of use of the expected accuracy of a long Mauser 98 so give MIT a to a cart it'd be and the coyote K is not significantly larger in the spread and the Germans like then the Swiss actually is well liked to like to think in 50 percent figures because statistically speaking mathematically speaking you can't actually define the size of a group a full group because a million shots though this is statistically they'll be allowed outlier somewhere which will create a group so what they tended to do was say okay 50% of shots will go into such and such a height 50% into sub structure with and these these figures are particularly good because they have a radius as well so we're expecting and a typical long Mazda 98 to put 50% of its shots into a radius of 10 centimeters at 300 meters so a diameter of 20 centimeters so that's about 8 inches letters from Honda Lister to engineering okay call it eight inches at 300 yards okay so now it's about two and a half minute hulls I'm half of you shows yeah now if you that's the classic way by the way to make a brute for the Internet as you fire a 10-round group and then pick the best five that is literally on the accuracy standard for the Germans yeah it's like oh it's a flight to fly luckily what what they do is they explain to us there's this the statistics of this and if you double the radius you get 94% syrup four percent of shots so if you fire twenty rounds you spent nineteen of them into that so you're expecting 19 of 20 rounds into a 40 centimeter group at 330 yards which is gonna be 16 inches at 300 which is a little over a 5 minute of angle group yeah and that and that is what they're considering normal now to bring it back to sniper rifles the number forties all had to parts of shooting testers seven thousand seven shots into five inches at 200 yards which is two and a half north okay the Germans seem to have made little attempt to select particularly accurate rifles at the factory and they would just pull rifles off the rack that's not a scope on them that's what the Japanese did that's what I think most probably did I thought about the Russians but then I don't read Russian so I can't look at original sources I suspect the intent was the this rifle isn't there to be more accurate it's there so the soldier can see targets to engage them because that is the biggest shortcoming of an iron sighted rifle hmm you know we guarantee you can't don't matter how accurate the rifle is you can't hit it if you can't see it yeah I'm not suddenly the point of the zetas 41 the little one right fight power that's a hugely underappreciated scope yeah I really like those though yeah Jeff Cooper invented it didn't you know I'm sure well until say sorry I'm just I just blaspheme against a saint yeah of Li if you're interested in Karnataka snipers by Steve laws collector great book is worth the money his translations from German when I read them I have to sort of literally translate them back into German to work out what was when he actually meant what he actually meant yeah but otherwise there they act they're excellent books and here's a massive fanboy but he doesn't hide the walls okay and one of the warts in there is that the Germans were distinctly unhappy with the accuracy of sniper rifles and there were reports coming back from the sniper schools believe if I remember correctly still in the day when they were issuing zennith forty ones as sniper rifles saying look these rifles are on average capable of six-inch groups even with even with a special shooting in ammunition and like it's what's going on what are you doing and then in the Russian campaign they were coming up with coming up against Mosin Nagant sniper rifles and anyone who's ever fired a modern sniper rifle with good ammunition should know that that not bad for the standards of the day yeah for the standards of today but for back in the day they were very very good and the Germans were kind of jealous to the point at which post DJ and Steve Laura actually has the front page of the letter written to Mauser say look guys we want a new sniper rifle we want your pre-production models to do sixteen millimeters at 100 meters so that your production ones will do 70 and that roughly comes out that to an armor so it's basically we want something that is as good as a number forty it has to be a repeater but otherwise do what you want and if you want to change the caliber you can change the caliber Wow which is like you're in the middle of the top of total war that really highlights how how bad they they had was and how much they really wanted something that would shoot straight the-the-the they were a set that they assessed them as on average because there's always exceptions everything's on a bell curve right like I'm not saying that there's not there's not their worst any that were freaking laser beams words to live by there are always exceptions yeah everything's on our code that they were capable of 300 meters that are capable on average engaging the the chest target but not the head target and that is from one of the bad translations of steel or translated back into German and then back in set proper English it really helps it really helps reading these books if you can speak a bit of German at least more than Steve Orkut because he did his own translations and the end to the am Europeans sorry there's nothing like feeling stupid when I only speak one language and around people who speak like before mmm that might be the Scotch that might be speaking well we are going a bit long here but we still have one more to go there it is British one so God's earth Queen and the various versions of the mad minute myth oh and for for which mr. Ian Hogg and the Osprey publishing series bear a lot of responsibility yeah now this is something if you're interested in giving it loads of the bolt-action rifle I do a certain amount of that on my channel go look at British muzzleloaders as well Rob's very much into this yep very cool channel very very cool channel very much go go go watch these videos he's very much into the drill in the uniforms as well is lesser never trust beyond the ergonomics but it looks great on video it does look great either that killed that killed kid why is it with Canadians and kills why they kill you ever kill yeah yeah I started playing the bagpipes when I was 10 years old cool yeah kilts are fantastic I won't ask any further there's muzzleloaders and I both know it so indeed I have never despite having it surname which not real I have never know any water kilt Nick bloke looks like anyway anyway um yes there's various versions of this so I start with a reality of myth let's go with the myth let's go with the myth there's so many versions of the myth the classic one which I believe because it was in a lookbooks was that British professional soldiers infantry cavalry pre World will one have to shoot at least fifteen rounds a minute at 300 yards for their pay at least 15 rounds a minute there's the Ian Hogg version of the myth that comes up an awful lot which is that they had to shoot fifteen rounds a minute or more than fifteen rounds a minute on a 12-inch target at 300 yards now to be fair this does mesh really quite well with what we were just talking about with the British army of this exact time being very serious about merchant ship standards however the mad minute kind of got distorted in books and then it's gotten seriously distorted by the internet and then you got people arguing that it couldn't have been true the British soldiers shot fifteen pain rounds in a minute because we take a straw man argument based on one of these stupid myth versions and yet the old version of the myth that's the mechanical accuracy of the rifle leaving the factory and in service as the wood gets he didn't go down it's never going to get any better the reality is that to be classed marksman or first-class second-class shots or whatever there was a whole series of practices of which practice 22 was rose fire was rapid fire it was 15 rounds in a minute at 300 yards starting five rounds in the gun the rest in the pouches and it was on a 48 inch target frame and the highest scoring zone was 24 inches and the aiming mark which is not quite a square so very stylized Gaya sort of Victorian the flap helmet yeah that's roughly twelve by twelve inches that's frigging hog guts not sorry Ian hope God is 12 but told but it's not the target that's 12 by 12 is the anymore yeah the equivalent of the black not the outermost aiming ring quite a round American bull's eye target yeah and that's where it comes from and I'm a glutton for punishment and every so often I get a core digest and during my lunch break sometimes I'll go through it it'll have things like this I know I've seen people snow the other thing the other myth about this that is I think the one that I see more often isn't it there was the mad minute and it was this fantastic British Standard and what it meant was that every soldier could make 39 hits on that target in a minute right you get that too right yes we get that we get we get um because like the best guy to ever on record and this was some point you know senior gunnery sergeant who've been in the service for 85 years existed know is there that would be even better if he never smokes it's sergeant instructor smokes all okay 38 rounds in a minute yes okay 38 now see that's what happens on the internet that's what happened I was 14 ladies the things we don't even know if schnapps already existed that's the thing there's no record of him and a shooter that good would have probably been competing as well thanks oh you think so so his name would probably be up in the Army Rifle Association of Bisley on price boards and things there isn't there's Jesse Wallingford who did 36 allegedly I believe that Jesse what if it was a real shooter was an Olympic shooter he was a seriously good all-round shot and I was it clip early and won medals for bravery and for extreme feats of marksmanship against moving targets with rifle revolvers a machine gun generally a super super shot all around and apparently an all-around good egg which is the most important thing when one is a British but doesn't mean everyone could do it know it seems to have been the the the the the unlimited rounds madman it seems to have been largely an instructor demo right to calm the troops down who are worried about 15 rounds being a lot now if you're a German and your doctrine is 8 to 10 rounds a minute which is not in any of the manuals I fact that somewhere else then 15 grams might seem like a bit of a bit of a stretch but in some of the later rifle training - the particularly the the the the 1955 one I thought they said that to give everyone confidence they should they should get the best it's the best shooter the best rapid-fire shooter available who can shoot at least 20 to show that you can easily exceed 15 nights perfect sir yes yeah and the Second World War I'd like to exercise the same ammo they did they didn't they didn't do 15 in a minute they did 10 in 40 seconds with a with a 5 round start pre First World War it was indeed 15 in a minute it's the same at the same rate of fire but he seems to be an instructor demo to show don't worry it's easy don't worry is easy we can do 25 so you doing 15 is easy right and honestly one you're used to rapid firing 15 is if you have a if you have a stoppage if you have an issue you screw up then you're toast then you're toast right if you take 15 seconds to clear the stoppage because you screwed up a charge at all or or something you're toast right you're gonna you're gonna end up rushing it but 15 ain't rounds whether in rounds in a minute is and it only takes one observer you know some foreign American German French observer watching one unit go through its training who watches one of these expert instructors get 30 rounds in a minimum and goes my goodness yeah and writes a newspaper article which then becomes the only thing his entire readership has ever heard about British training because they don't have the internet because it didn't exist yeah and also now the story starts to spread about how every man in the British Army can fire 30 rounds or mate was it I think it was 40 rounds hmm in a minute at a 5 inch target at 600 meters it gets inflated very very quickly wikipedia says the the austro-hungarians when the m95 Mannlicher could Tipu could 535 rounds a minute i'm gonna test this i have intensified i'm just letting that is the most uncomfortable gun bolt gun I have ever fired and anyone willing can fire 35 rounds in a minute is both out of their mind and has my most sincere respect and I'm pretty sure they don't exist yeah I'm gonna try this I'd never heard of that it's all it was I was looking up stuff on the on a pretty new rifle headboard I was just like no no that's insane no you in there you pointed out to me that the German standard for rapid fire oh yes yeah which was I can I remember this I locate this made an impression on me you start prone with the front sight at eye level and the butt on the ground so slightly drop and on command you have seven seconds to make one shot shell shoot to close a third year yeah that's the highest level of training and we are seven seconds that's it is a 300 foot for the for the Sharpshooter closet is 300 meters you do it five times you can repeat three shots so you actually get eight rounds if you Mir and you need to make five hits and 33 points on the target that goes up to 12 and it's a is 10 centimeters 20 centimeters 30 centimeters 40 centimeters with 12 being 10 centimeters and that's it yeah now that's not a super easy string but when you think of that is basically the highest level of qualification and training that's not not all that that is really not all that and when you got the the the Brits on the other side who are all practicing 10 rounds in 40 seconds with a reload in there and expecting the Brits didn't have the universal machine gun no we had a light machine gun a medium machine yeah and the the definition of medium machine gun is something for an entirely because that's a bowl of worms oh one kind of loves that's a yes it's definitely the Scotch that's a can of worms all to itself so that was cool that was that let us get a bunch of stuff off our chests so what you wanted to supply this for jolly good show we really appreciate you watching this far into a video of us sitting in a room bitching about guns about myths it's been a fantastic yeah it was really cool to be able to hook up and definitely do some cool video hopefully you guys enjoyed it if you did well if you're watching this early you're seeing it on blokes Channel definitely check out his patreon account and I think he does really cool content and he deserves to have a lot more support a lot more viewers than he does so of course if you're already watching this you probably already know that so if you're not watching this super early if you're seeing it on forgotten weapons the same thing applies definitely check out his channel and all the very cool info he has and well if you're at it you might also take a look at my patreon account I did yeah that is what allows me to travel to places like Switzerland where we are now to find some cool guns and bring you those and do some cool collaboration with guys like bloke on range so thank you very much for watching thanks you

Channel: Forgotten Weapons

Views: 736,511

Rating: 4.9099846 out of 5

Keywords: Forgotten Weapons, four annoying gun myths, with bloke on the range, Lee-Enfield accuracy standards, British BREN training, effectiveness vs accuracy, Noisy M1 safety, German ammo allowances, wartime emergency measure, Roy Dunlap, sniper rifles, Garand Ping, Ping myth, Lindybeige cameo, plastic clips, collaboration, bloke, garand, ww2 accuracy, sniper rifle, bren gun, too accurate, machine gun, mad minute, gun myth, britishmuzzleloaders, history, mccollum, kasarda, inrange

Id: 8rv337snZ9k

Length: 69min 54sec (4194 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 31 2017