Forgiving Others, Freeing the Soul (Part 2) - Dr. Timothy Keller

in a culture of self-assertion we will become more  and more incapable of forgiveness and Christians   will more and more be a counterculture in which  forgiveness is still possible and I think I think   Christians therefore can be salt and light in  this country if we're still able to forgive but   not if we start to use all the same belligerent  sort of language that everybody else is using welcome to the focus on the family  broadcast helping families thrive in his book about forgiveness Dr Tim Keller  writes we have a profound need to Grant and   receive forgiveness forgiveness gets down to the  bottom of things to the alienation we feel from   God and from ourselves because of our wrongdoing  the deepest need of our nature is for Jesus and   the doorway is to know forgiveness Dr Keller is  back with us today on focus on the family as we   continue a conversation on this topic thanks  for joining us your host is focused president   and Author Jim Daly and I'm John Fuller and John  we had a really good visit with Tim Keller about   this critical matter of forgiveness we all need to  know how to forgive others because as Christians   we've been forgiven so much but that doesn't mean  it's easy to let go of bad feelings we may have   about someone else it's in our sinful nature to  Harbor resentment or to want to retaliate today   Dr Tim Keller will bring more powerful stories and  very practical help for us in forgiving others so   stay with us Dr Tim Keller is an author and the  founding pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church   in Manhattan and he now works with an organization  he co-founded called Redeemer City to City   his new book is called forgive why should I and  how can I and to help you contact us for your   copy when you call 800 the letter a and the word  family or just check the program notes now we   spoke with Dr Keller Outdoors near his home in New  York City and will pick up the conversation with   a couple of great examples of forgiveness here now  Jim Daly with Dr Tim Keller on Focus on the Family   yet another really impactful story right here  in New York we're hearing some of the ambient   sounds of sirens and what you know this is an  active City isn't it John it varies but you had   a story of a New York gang member young man yeah  who uh demonstrated incredible forgiveness and   described that story and where where does a what  I would decide or believe would be his unbelieving   heart but he can demonstrate some powerful Godly  truths even if he doesn't have a faith in Christ   well you know there's actually two stories one  in there was a a uh a policeman who was trying to   break something up and was uh injured by a kid you  know a an inner city Youth and he was paralyzed   the rest of his life and um it's interesting he  tried to talk to the kid in prison he tried to   write him in prison and the guy wouldn't talk to  him and then weirdly enough he got out and then   died in a car accident in a motorcycle accident  and then there was another one where the boy was   um uh he wasn't hurt by the it wasn't the  plea he was hurt by other gang members and he   um was also paralyzed and he he also forgave and  in both cases the boy forgave the people who had   had um basically paralyzed him the the policeman  had forgiven the boy the the youth who had uh   uh harmed him in fact interesting the policeman  looking back said I I now actually realize that   it did look pretty racist for me just to show up  at these poor kids places of uh where they were   playing and where they were living he he wasn't  just convicted that he'd become a Christian   and forgive but even that he actually had been a  person who was sort of guilty of Injustice yeah so   it's it's all those uh it's never just I forgiven  yeah usually there's uh a humbling that happens   and a new a new way of understanding themselves  yeah so forgiveness is really transformational   it doesn't just reconcile you to other people it  actually gives you a completely different approach   well I think the purpose of me asking about those  stories is really to set this question up and that   is how do you know when you have not or you have  truly forgiven somebody it there can be a bit   of fuzziness about that I'll give you a quick  example for me when I speak about my childhood   and my dad the alcoholic and they'd divorced my  mom and dad and men who were 60 and 70 years old   will be in this line and they'll come up to me  in tears saying I've never been able to forgive   my father yeah and I it's a hard one for me that  what do you say I mean you have to let it go you   have to not hold that against them you've got to  forgive them but there is a lot of that Tim in   the Christian culture just these grievances that  we really haven't dealt with so how do we know   a that they exist and then B if we've actually  forgiven right I don't think there's a bright line   here's what I'll do shorthand here's my pastoral  advice to somebody I will say and it's in the book   forgiveness is granted before it's felt  see most people say I I'm still mad   so I haven't forgiven so I say okay for  a moment why don't we uh separate the two   is it is it because some people would say since  I'm so mad I can't forgive and I'll say no   forgiveness is something you can grant before you  actually feel it that's very important actually   well what does it mean to Grant okay forgiveness  is a is a kind of commit it's a commitment   um in principle the commitment is I am not going  to take revenge on this person I am not going   to make this person pay okay in other words  that's how that's that's the definition of any   forgiveness I mean in the book I try to say if uh  somebody knocks your lamp over it's fifty dollars   and they say oh I'm so sorry you can either say  yes that'll be fifty dollars please or you can say   forget it which means you forgive them but then  you have to go out and buy the lamp the 50 doesn't   go away right or or maybe you go in darkness but  the point is somebody pays and when forgiveness is   always always deciding I'm not going to make  the other person pay I'm going to absorb it   but to really Grant forgiveness day in and day  out is to make a commitment to do three things   not to keep bringing the matter up to the person  not to keep bringing the matter up to other people   to try to kind of run them down you know get  back at them by hurting their reputation and   not to keep bringing it up over and over again to  yourself so what that means is I if I find myself   thinking about too much I say no I'm not going to  do that it's a commitment to yourself if I find   myself kind of having an opportunity to run the  person down to somebody else not going to do that   and if I have an opportunity to use this against  this especially happens probably in marriage boy   I was thinking I got to think about that  something you say is your if your spouse   says please forgive me honey for that and you say  yes then you can't bring it up again six months   later you must not bring it up six months  later and here's the thing if you actually   make follow through on those commitments you'll  feel the anger diminishing over time if you don't   make those three commitments the anger I think  stays a very very long time so it's granted   before it's felt it's the granting is basically  I'm not going to take revenge but then actual   day in and day out it means we're just refusing  to go in those directions and I don't think that   forgiveness is hard it's harder the less God  is real to you and it's easier the more he's   real to you boy that is a good statement right  there that's powerful and I think that that also   um in interviewing a lot of women on the theme  of marriage and parenting the one thing that   I've noticed and you know this John they have an  incredible capacity to look at themselves first I   think we as men we kind of have the ego that says  that's the other guy's fault but in that context   the question of how to forgive yourself um I'm  not the good Mom I'm not the perfect wife I'm   not a good husband where does that forgiveness  for self coming yeah where does that come if   somebody's asking me that I'm not going to uh  I'm going to work with them I'm not sure that   I think it's the best way of talking about it  huh uh now if your RC Sproul what RC used to do   is used to say if somebody said I have uh I know  God's forgiven me but I can't forgive myself he   says so you have higher standards than God huh  it's a little which I thought was a little bit   I don't know I'm not sure that's the best bedside  manner somebody's really struggling but he's right   no at the core what you're saying is you're  you're really saying I have higher standards   than God I mean people well wait a minute no  I can't I don't have my so what what here's   what's going on I think generally speaking  there's a there's another God going on here   God's forgiven me but I can't forgive myself  okay if you're real God is your career and you   did something really stupid and you're probably  never going to get your career back on track   and your self-image is not so much based on I'm  a Child of God it's based on I'm a successful   I'm an achiever whatever right yeah and now I  haven't achieved and I can't forgive myself what   you've really got here is an idol and see false  gods can't forgive hmm see what I always like to   say to people is the reason why it'd be better to  say to serve Jesus rather than your your career or   anything else is Jesus if you screw up well first  of all if you get him he actually satisfies you   you know the C.S Lewis thing is you get to the  top of your career or you become as beautiful   as you want to be or you get everything you  want it's never enough It's never enough   Jesus is the only God that if you get him will  satisfy you and if you fail him will forgive you   your career will never forgive you for your sins  your career will punish you the rest of your life   if that's your God and so I it takes me a while  with people I can't just jump in and say oh you   must be there must be some idolatry here you know  I'm in other words I would never go in that way   fast and you might even actually if you know the  person well and they're not in too much trouble   you might do the the RC it's almost like a joke  saying so you have higher standards than God if   you know and no I guess not I mean sometimes that  actually helps yeah but in most cases it's usually   something that they have given their heart way too  much to yeah and it is punishing them because it   they failed that false god and that's that's where  a lot of that is it's really insightful I mean   it's a test for idolatry I mean that is really  powerful Yes actually any inordinate emotion that   you can't get rid of so uh inordinate bitterness  actually can be towards somebody else can mean   um that this is an idol inordinate fear I'm going  to lose it inordinate guilt that oh I failed and   you just ignored it meaning it just doesn't seem  to be resolvable right very often there's some   there's some kind of idolatry that's something let  me let me go back for a moment where you have that   conflict with another person and your forgiveness  is dependent upon that person's response can that be okay or is that unhealthy if back to  the groveling but there may be some more subtle   things like that that right it it's only going to  work if you demonstrate a certain action yeah then   I'll forgive you yeah I'm really glad you got  there there's there's two verses that look like   their contradictions Mark 11 25 says Jesus says  if you're standing and praying and you realize   you've got anything against anyone forgive them  and it doesn't seem to have any conditions just   you have to forgive them Luke 17 is where it says  if a person repents you should forgive them even   if they do it over and over you forgive them  and so it looks like one is saying you don't   have to forgive until they repent the other words  looks like it says you have to forgive whether   repent or not and my my dear departed friend  David palisan I don't know if you knew who   he was but he is a counselor who died recently  actually I think he died of pancreatic cancer   he said there's an internal forgiveness that you  do before immediately that's Mark 11 25 where you   make those commitments we were talking about  before not to keep bringing it up to yourself   and others where you say I'm not going to pay  back and you forgive but then you do need to go   uh for the person's sake for God's sake for  others sake and say you did something here   that you really I don't think you should have done  now if you go to them having forgiven they still   may get their back up and just not want to talk  to you uh if you go to them kind of unforgiving   and kind of vengeful saying do you know what  you did to me that they will definitely get   their back up and not listen to you but if you  go to them forgiven forgiving and gracious and   all that they might actually start to say oh I  didn't realize that I'm so sorry and they change   and you reconcile great but Romans 12 18 says as  much as it depends on you live at peace with all   and what that means is you take whatever you get  if the person does not respond well or doesn't   want to talk about it or even responds very poorly  you know in a way that's really kind of half   wrong you know it I think what you say is I got  it whatever I can get and now I'm still gonna   I'm gonna be forgiving and I'm gonna try to be  as open to the person as I possibly can in that   respect I'm thinking of circumstances I've been  involved in where you're extending an olive branch   and it gets bitten off you know so  you do it again and maybe a third time   is there a time that you can say okay I gave it  my best shot and it's just not happening and you   stop extending the Olive Branch I think  it that's a judgment call as long as you   say that the the door is you know still open  but it may have to come from the other direction   that's right otherwise I I think I don't know how  often right um you know the for the Matthew 18   thing where you go to the person and if they don't  listen to you you take somebody if they don't   listen to you tell to the church most people do  not really me think that Jesus is saying you get   three tries right you know they they it certainly  looks like a process and surely in different   situations you would take longer and do it more  often or but it is true that you don't want   it's never loving to make it easy for someone to  sin against you it's not loving to that person   and I have seen some people you know say I'm  just trying to put out the Olive Branch but   basically they're just getting clobbered right  every single time and I said I don't think it   makes it's not helping the perpetrator by making  it so easy for the perpetrator to despise you and   yell at you and I don't know that that's that's  yeah that's an interesting perspective you're   emboldening them to continue the behavior that  hurts other people let me ask you this one of   the hardest things for people to do is to confront  someone lovingly and I think again yeah is there   a difference between confronting a non-believer  and someone within the community of Christ and   I you know the scenario makes all the difference  and I I'm just thinking about do you go about it   differently because on the one hand I can remember  a Christian leader saying to me who's going to   hold them accountable to God's righteousness and  that would be the response to loving your neighbor   you know without perhaps without any boundaries  so how do you how do you engage I guess that   accountability between the world and the church  the fellow believer certainly I do think that if   you have another professing believer who you  think has wronged you I think the Matthew 18   stuff is that uh you you are both accountable  to God you're both accountable to the scripture   you might be in the same church maybe not but I  do think you the the reconciliation uh attempt   can go on longer you know you have more resources  you probably should should not give up on it your   brother and sister or brothers or sisters  in Christ uh I do think somebody outside   uh there's a limit to what you can appeal to  when you're talking to them you know I mean   with with a Christian you've got all that you've  got the word of God and you've got so many other   you've got better Arguments for why you  shouldn't have done that right um and so   I guess I would just say that reconciliation  you shouldn't give up as soon you should spend   more time with it you've got more resources  for a Christian so in some ways it's easier   than with a non-Christian because the  non-Christian you don't have as many   resources you don't have as good arguments but I  would say here's the problem with the Christian   who's wronged you versus the non-Christian the  non-Christian you say well you know I don't know   whether they know any better I mean you know the  place where tree beard in Lord of the Rings says a   wizard should know better right you know so here  wait a minute you've done all this to the trees   and wait a minute you you're a wizard you're not  just somebody else you're not just somebody else   you're a wizard you should know better and I do  think that Christians very often find it very   difficult to forgive other Christians for that  very reason you say come on yeah so it's easier   and harder so they they're just different you  know one of the uh arguments I've heard back when   I worked in the business world this was really  interesting I I knew a number of secular business   people and they would say to me you know most of  the Christian business people I've worked with   they wronged me they cost me money they didn't pay  me back or something like that and so that's why   I don't pursue God and I started smiling at them  and I can remember doing this several times and   that irritated them and they'd look at me and I'd  say wait it's kind of foolish to keep eternal life   from you because somebody didn't live it well you  know so using the argument that somebody didn't   live their Christian faith properly in your eyes  is no argument not to pursue a relationship with   God no you know what I always try to I mean again  this this may not be the best bedside manner but I   said ah when somebody says well this happened that  happened that's why I find Christianity I said so   that convinced you that Jesus wasn't raised from  the dead right exactly and I said yeah so now wait   a minute it's a non-sequiturge just okay so this  CR this ostensibly Christian businessman you know   cheated you so that means you said ah that just  proves that Jesus wasn't raised into so you really   ought to go look at the evidence right for the  Christian faith instead of just saying you know   that guy it was was a was a hypocrite right so  it it so much wiser kind of understand it I mean   there's no doubt we we do believe that if you're  an attractive person you attract people to Christ   but sometimes I think people are not very  logical when they when they just say oh look   at that person they say he's a Christian  that shows there's nothing to it well   yeah give me either quack medic they're  quack doctors it doesn't mean medicine   is yeah is a bogus thing Dr Keller  somebody has been listening along and   they might have been influenced by something  you've said but they just can't get to that point   of forgiving somebody who is really wounded  them they're still stuck yeah then you get a   conversation partner I'm not saying it doesn't  have to be a necessarily professional counselor   get a conversation partner who you think  first of all maybe has had to forgive   you find somebody that you know seems  to have forgiven something that was   hurt them uh find a conversation partner  who's a mature Christian and open up and I   I just think uh I think you probably ought to be  talking with somebody about it rather than just   uh I I really do now I'm hoping the book might be  of help sure and even though Jim Daley is quite an   you know he really can interrogate you I want you  to know however he didn't get me to say everything   is in the book yeah uh Tim the last question here  uh because it's such a good illustration in the   book you mentioned a story about an Australian  medical missionary uh which was very powerful   so we don't want to miss that one in India and  there's other stories but uh let's hit that one   right at the end because again it makes such  an impact yeah the uh it was an Australian uh   medical missionary family that was quite  a number of years ago that was in India   working with lepers and and a lot of very very  poor people didn't have good medical treatment   something that still happens today I'm  afraid was a a an anti-christian mob um found the husband and I think two sons and the  two sons were with the father in a car and they   surrounded the car and and and and killed them  drive the car and killed them and the mother   and her daughter after they've discovered this  said we're going to stay here and we're going   to continue the work and eventually they they  formed a hospital they stayed she stayed in her   entire life and uh daughter grew up there and they  just said we you know this is not going to stop us   from loving these people and of course today  they are venerated by by the way by the Hindu   um government which today is actually still pretty  hostile to Christians and yet they got I forget   what the name of them is there's some highest  order of Merit that was given to uh her for   for staying there and doing all this uh uh health  care for the poor of India it is pretty remarkable   that is and she she when she was being covered it  was it was big news of course at the time and she   says well we're going to forgive and we're going  to stay and forgiveness is an act of self-denial   but we live in a culture that continually says  self-assertion self-assertion don't let anybody   make you feel guilty don't let anybody walk all  over you don't let anybody keep you from what   you want in a culture of self-assertion  we will become more and more incapable   of forgiveness and Christians will more and more  be a counterculture in which forgiveness is still   possible and I think I think Christians therefore  can be salt and light in this country if we're   still able to forgive but not if we start to use  all the same belligerent sort of language that   everybody else is using kind of ending where we  started when I said that we're in the Christian   Community we're you trying to use carnal tools  to battle carnal people you did say that I did   how wise of you so and then expecting a spiritual  result no you're right you got to use spiritual   tools to get a spiritual result totally right  Tim is so good to be with you thank you I mean   when you say thank you for your time it can often  be a throwaway line but given what's happening in   your life and where God has you right now thank  you for your time well thank you for actually   coming all the way just yards from where I live  in order to have a live interview I was amazed if   you're gonna I said if you're gonna do that okay  well that was kind thank you so much appreciate it what a privilege to visit with Dr Tim  Keller who so graciously spoke with us   on this important topic of forgiveness his  book is called forgive why should I and how   can I and John I think every Christian should  have a go-to resource like this that they can   use in helping to heal relationships that are  strained Dr Keller has compiled biblical wisdom   on the principles and practices of forgiveness  and how to reconcile with someone and receiving   God's forgiveness in the process and when you  make a donation to focus on the family we'll   send you a copy of Tim Keller's book as our  way of saying thank you for participating in   Ministry donate today as you can when you  call 800 the letter a and the word family 800-232-6459 or check the  link in the program notes   on behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team thanks  for joining us today for focus on the family   I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once  again help you and your family thrive in Christ

Channel: Focus on the Family

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Keywords: focus on the family, dr. timothy keller, tim keller, tim keller forgiveness, forgive book, forgive tim keller, dr. timothy keller forgive, forgiving others in a meaningful way, how to forgive others, scripture to help you forgive, the steps to forgiveness, how to lovingly confront others, powerful stories of forgiveness, why is it important to forgive others, the power of forgiveness, focus on the family broadcast, focus broadcast, fotf broadcast

Id: CkyC2Up0lWE

Length: 26min 8sec (1568 seconds)

Published: Wed Nov 30 2022