Follow Him Podcast: Dr. Ken Alford: Episode 32 Part 1 : Doctrine & Covenants 85-87

[Music] welcome to follow him a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their come follow me study i'm hank smith and i'm john by the way we love to learn we love to laugh we want to learn and laugh with you as together we follow him hello my friends welcome to follow him i am your host hank smith i am here with my illustrious co-host john by the way hello john welcome hank has a different adjective for me each time i gave hank a thesaurus once and not only was it terrible it was terrible yes i had to go get a new one um hey we want to remind everybody uh to come find us on facebook and and instagram we've got some extras on there john and i are doing uh we also uh for those of you who are listening there is a youtube version if you'd rather watch us you can also get show notes and transcripts at follow him dot co follow him.co and of course we'd love for you to rate and review the vodka podcast that really helps us out um so john another week and another expert in church history so uh tell us who we have here it's great i'm so delighted to be here this thing has changed my doctrine and covenants i thought i'd read it before but it's just a blessing for us to be here and to have dr kenneth l alford here let me read what i've got here after serving almost 30 years on active duty in the united states army brother alford retired as a colonel in 2008 while on active military duty ken served in numerous assignments including the pentagon eight years teaching computer science and information systems engineering at the u.s military academy at west point and four years as a professor of behavioral science and department chair at the national defense university in washington dc after serving in the england bristol mission with my sister-in-law he earned a bachelor of arts degree in political science from brigham and university a master of arts in international relations from the university of southern california a master of computer science from the university of illinois at urbana champaign and a phd in computer science from george mason university he has published and presented on a wide variety of subjects during his career and ken and his wife shirley have four children and 18 grandchildren and we're so happy to welcome you today thanks for being with us today thanks i should probably clarify that your sister-in-law sister-in-law and i were in the same mission but were not companions that was that yeah yeah that sounded kind of funny that i just want to just want to be really clear on that and linda was not my sister-in-law at the time either that happened like she came home married my married my brother so we found out we had that uh connection which is which is great so now is this accurate for children 18 grandchildren ever that number seems to change with almost everybody we bring on that's uh that's the accurate number um you can kind of see the group behind me i've got a family photo they are a family reunion and uh heading for another family reunion this summer john i've known ken for uh gal it's been 10 years now ever since i came on to campus at byu and he has been honestly always so kind to newcomers i don't know why that is ken maybe it's just a natural thing or maybe someone did it to you a long time ago but you were um well i stepped foot on campus and you came over to say hi and meet me and find out who i was and then we found out that we had you know mutual family with my sister-in-law lisa i think is your cousin and we just connected there um is that just something you've always done when you're in the army you're always the new guy my wife and i moved our family i don't know 15 or more times in a 30-year career and so you're always showing up as the new guy our byu faculty is actually the fifth fifth faculty that i've been a part of so even academically you're always always the new guy so i kind of kind of have an empathy i think for being the new guy because i've been the new guy so many times nice yeah you i remember first first day i was like oh i have a friend i have a friend it makes a difference you know you feel like us as adults we don't we don't worry about that sort of thing but no it's we do and it feels good um so uh before i uh let this happen i just want to make our listeners aware that ken is not only a church history and doctrine expert he's also a war history expert and we have a war history lover in our co-host john by the way so they may go off on some tangents at times talking about world war ii john we haven't talked about your dad very much where did he where did he serve um my dad enlisted in the navy two days before his 18th birthday in 1944 he went to camp farragut in idaho to learn how to march in straight lines other important stuff and then he he got on a train to san francisco a bus to san francisco bay and boarded the uss saratoga cv3 the largest carrier in the fleet at the time and uh saw action at uh iwo jima uh their ship was attacked by kamikazes he stated his post he was on a quad 40 anti-aircraft gun and uh 123 killed 196 wounded that day february 23rd 1945 um was not a member of the church but had some buddies that dragged him off his bunk and said you're coming to church with us and when he got home he thought i should date some some as he put it some lds girls and uh one of those ended up being my mom so it's a really interesting story how even in those kinds of times the lord can intervene and make wonderful things happen even in difficult very difficult times so i could i could go on all day but that's the the one paragraph uh nutshell so world war ii from 44 to 46 in the pacific on the saratoga well i wanted to ask maybe brother alford about his was was the military something you always wanted to do was it something that helped you get to college how did that all come about my father was a reserve officer um so when i i was born when just before dad graduated from byu and then when i was just a couple couple weeks old we moved to harlingen texas he went to navigator school training down there i learned to to walk while he was at nav school training and then we got stationed in alaska when i was little it was a territory then so i'll betray my age my sister's birth certificate says territory of alaska wow and then we that's when he was on active duty dad used to fly with a b50 along the bering strait taking in air samples from the soviet union proving that they were doing nuclear tests and then we moved back and we moved that got out of the service went into the reserves we moved to ogden yeah but my whole growing up dad was in the reserve so he would disappear summers and christmases going over to vietnam and and various various places and and so military was just kind of a kind of a thing and then i went to high school at ben lomond high school in ogden utah and ogden utah was one of two cities in the entire nation the other was walla walla washington and uh if you went to high school in walla walla washington or ogden utah you took rotc as a sophomore it wasn't optional if you were a male you took rotc and so i took rotc and i i liked it and had basic you know military familiarization from my dad so i continued through high school rotc it was a battalion commander there and and then applied for a scholarship for rotc at college and uh got the scholarship went to byu on army rotc scholarship and then graduated into the army and the army just every single time we asked for something the army just said okay it was just it was just amazing um and so they the army let you do anything you could do in the civilian world you can do in the army and uh and so i wanted to be a professor and they let me be a professor a couple of times and and uh sent me to school and did all kinds of things and i turned around and 30 years almost had passed and then we then we got out the army was very good to my family um the saying within the army is the lord knows where he wants your family to be and then he whispers to the army to send you there and that that seemed to be the case with our family as we moved just all over the place and and it was it was a great experience although if you ask our children where they're from they kind of just look at you not quite sure how to answer that although most of them i think would say say probably virginia because we had three tours in virginia all right well let's jump in to our uh lesson this week ken uh we're studying sections 85 86 and 87 which seemed to me because of your help which seemed to me to be kind of stand-alone sections there's they don't really run together like some of the others we've uh we've we've seen you know right in a row let's back up as far as you want uh and tell our listeners what they probably should know before heading into section 85. well sure section 85 you have to remember at this time that boy poor joseph smith he's trying to run the church with two church centers if you like for lack of a better description and the internet is still down in 1831-32 it's going to be down it's going to be down for another 150 years and and so it's really tough i mean just try can you imagine trying to communicate and organize and and on top of this you're trying to organize and run the law of consecration in the land of zion in missouri and so he's deputized basically some folks and given them authority david whitmer and others who's the president of the church in missouri and and he's he's joseph has traveled out to missouri and they're trying they're just trying to you know build the church in in ohio they're trying to build the church in missouri and they're having challenges in both places to be quite frank and and boy it's got to be frustrating to be joseph because he's only got um you know at this stage in church history he's got two bishops but fortunately he has two bishops now he started with none and in missouri what's happened is they have when joseph went out they take ww phelps william phelps and just a little bit about w phelps he's he's one of those guys you hear his name a lot he's from new jersey he actually wanted to run for lieutenant governor of new york at one point um it's kind of fun his connection to the church he buys a book of mormon talk about interesting timing he buys his copy of the book of mormon on the ninth of april as i recall like three days after the church is organized so the church is three days old he buys a copy of the book of mormon he's reading it he doesn't meet joseph though as i recall until oh goodness it's almost christmas in 1830 and then he waits six more months before he's baptized and he's baptized as i recall in june of 1831 and then he is called to go out to missouri and he goes out to missouri to make a long story short they buy a press and it's set up in independence and then joseph is is told by the lord to send oliver cowdery and john whitmer with the copy of what's called the book of commandments and revelations and this is a a record kind of a master copy of the revelations joseph has been receiving they take that out to missouri and double w w phelps very painstakingly begins setting that type in a little teeny book it's only about this big and it's called the book of commandments because if we go clear back to section one at the beginning of of the come follow me year the lord in those initial verses says this is my preface and he names it the book of commandments so w.w phelps is working on that and he he's publishing that and so he's out there in missouri joseph is back in kirtland now section 85 is is written down it's actually a letter it's an excerpt of a letter from joseph smith to w.w phelps now we're presuming that w.w phelps must have written a letter first and what's happened is right before this this is the end of november 1832 and joseph has just come back from a mission up into southern canada and up into upstate new york and while he's gone his mail is stacking up you know that that happens when you don't have email and and so he's waiting through all of his mail and he must have come across a letter from w.w phelps now that letter has been long lost hopefully they'll find it someday but currently that letter is lost we can presume what the letter says based on joseph's response and he writes back to w.w phelps and gives him some counsel and and advice on church members in missouri and also how the law of consecration is to be run and what records are to be kept and and those kinds of of things and in this letter joseph joseph says this he says while i dictate this letter i fancy to myself that you are saying or thinking something similar to these words so he puts a question into w.w phelps mouth and it says what shall become of those who are a saying to come up unto zion so those people that are coming to missouri in order to keep the commandments of god and yet receive not their inheritance by consecration by order of deed from the bishop agreeably to the law and then he says so i've assumed you've asked that question ww and now i will proceed to answer your question and so the letter and by the way you can find the text of the entire letter if any listeners are interested just go to the joseph smith papers website it's josephsmithpapers.org and you can actually find under the revelations the full text the original letter of joseph and you can see the parts that were cut out that actually become section 85. and so in there then joseph there's there's a fun reference in verse 6 where joseph talks about he says yea thus saith the still small voice which whispereth through and pierceth all things i just think that's a great description just a just a fun description of the holy ghost because when the holy ghost speaks to you it just kind of it just kind of pierces you you know it's it's it's still and it's small but the holy ghost has this great ability to just get your attention and then joseph goes on and says in the letters and oftentimes it makes my bones to quake while it maketh manifest so that when i feel the spirit it just kind of just kind of makes me shake all over it's just you know so exciting that it's that it's happening and at this time the law of consecration in missouri is being organized if you like by the the first bishop in the church that's edward partridge who was a hatter by the way and uh he made hats for a living prior to becoming a bishop and and so he's out there and edward partridge he's if you know for a while he's the only bishop in the church and now he's been charged with running the law of consecration if you go back and remember section 51 he gets instructions from the lord on how to do that and there's various sections that you've talked about in previous episodes that talk about the law of consecration and things but edward partridge this is a this is a good man he you know he the lord says this is a man in whom there is no guile he just has no he just doesn't have a deceitful bone in his body and he compares the lord compares him to nathanael you know one of his ancient apostles and so but but edward partridge isn't perfect he's like the rest of us and edward partridge quite frankly comes in and out of favor if you like with joseph depending because the lord says earlier i'm going to paraphrase here but basically the lord says when it comes to the law of consecration it's my way or the highway you have to do it my way or the law just won't work and as they're trying to work through some of the problems in missouri edward partridge is is maybe being just a little creative and trying to figure some of these things out and plus they have people that won't join the law and there's just lots of challenges they're receiving persecution but at this time in november of 1832 joseph considers from what he he knows that edward partridge needs to probably toe the line a little bit more as when it comes to the law of consecration and and so and and he does by the way there's several things in later revelations and also other writings of joseph where edward partridge just he's he's just such a such a great guy but but he needs a little course correction right here and so joseph offers that course correction in this letter that is excerpt um in in section 85 and what he says is is in verse 7 the letter says and it shall come to pass that i the lord god will send one mighty and strong and basically what he's telling bishop partridge is bishop i've called you to do this you need to do it you need to rely on the spirit but you need to follow the guidelines and exercise and execute the law of consecration as it's been laid out and if you don't do that i will send someone mighty and strong who will help you out and then he goes on and says while that man who was called of god and appointed so bishop partridge that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of god and that of course is a reference to por usa back in first chronicles what chapter 13 verses 9 and 10. this is a guy that's following the ark of the covenant as israel's on the move and the ark you know it's on a wagon that's apparently a little bit rickety and i don't know they hit a bump or something happens and the ark shifts and so uza puts out his hand to steady the ark and keep it on the wagon well that's verboten you're not allowed to touch the ark unless you're unless you're you know of the proper cast of levites and in the in the right order and all those other rules that are found in the old testament but ooza takes it upon himself and basically what user says is god isn't capable of protecting the ark of the covenant i'm going to have to do it for him and so i'm going to override the rule and i'm going to put my hand out and steady the ark uzza touches the ark and he's he's he's killed and and so you don't steady the ark um you know and that's kind of a we've got that metaphor in the church of not steadying the arc i was going to say ken it's that's become kind of a uh i've heard it at least in my in in my church experience don't study the ark and that's where it comes from is from that that first chronicles story in fact david mckay made this statement um i i like this he said it's a little dangerous for us to go out of our own sphere and try to unauthoritatively and that's the key to unauthoritatively direct the efforts of a brother or i would add a sister see how quickly those who attempt unauthoritatively to steady the ark die spiritually now when i was growing up i think each generation you know has kind they play favorites just maybe a little bit and one of our favorites was was neil a maxwell and elder maxwell said it this way he just said quote prophets need tutoring as we all do okay but then i love this line he says however this is something the lord seems perfectly quite able to manage without requiring a host of helpers and isn't that a great line you know none of us are perfect not even the prophets and apostles but but it's not our position to steady the ark and and so this the statement in that section um today we look at it we go okay bishop partridge got that counsel he repented of whatever he was not quite doing right and and absolutely did a great job um but i've got to tell you in the first 75 years of the church's history and especially around the period of the manifesto into the period of utah's early statehood that phrase from verse seven one mighty and strong really became kind of a touchstone as different groups left the church for various reasons often it was because of plural marriage when when the keys to plural marriage were turned off there were some groups that didn't agree with that and they left the church and they they some of them used that phrase one mighty and strong to say that that was their leader of their break-off group and so so much so that interestingly this isn't known much today but but in the deseret news which is uh owned by the church in the 11 november issue in 1905 so the church is just 75 years old but in november of 1905 the first presidency published a very long for a newspaper a very long explanation about that phrase one mighty and strong wow and they felt so strongly about it that they republished it almost two years later in the october issue of the improvement era in 1907. and here's what the first presidency had to say about that phrase one mighty and strong perhaps no other passage in the revelations of the lord in this dispensation has given rise to so much speculation as this one well wow i mean in the 115 years that have passed since then that's kind of heard it calmed down a little bit but this that phrase one mighty and strong was a major um concern and and cause of speculation because people were saying well who is that and then various groups were saying well it's our guy but but in that in that publication that the church put out they very painstakingly and again this is it's available you can find it on the internet if you're looking for it but very painstakingly they just lay out and say this is talking about bishop partridge he repented one mighty and strong isn't wasn't needed the lord didn't have to execute that second part of that clause but i just find it i just find it interesting that that twice this was of such a concern at the time as they're trying to you know turn that key off for um plural marriage with the manifesto and then what some call the second manifesto just after the turn of the century that that it's a it's a cause of concern and uh just kind of a kind of an interesting note from section 85 to something that we don't as we read it today we we don't have that same visceral reaction to that phrase in in verse seven yeah i would that's not one i would have said oh i remember that phrase coming up in 1905. i hope you don't remember that phrase yeah yeah um i don't we don't want to offend any of our listeners but we do want to help people understand what steady the ark might look like in 2021 um where we go to sometimes we want to go offer the bishop our unsolicited council is that or i had a dream yeah yeah the lord told me to tell you you know this and i remember responding if the lord can't get through to me he usually tells my wife i have learned great respect for the keys and as as a bishop i had a a former area authority teaching gospel doctrine in our ward and whenever i happened to have the chance to go to gospel doctrine he was so respectful of the keys he always asked me bishop i want you to have the last word today in gospel doctrine and i also have learned when i'm going to do a fireside i find the person with the keys and i say this is exactly what i'm planning to talk about is that okay and if you would like to make any closing comments of course you know i'd welcome because because i um i understand that idea and i've learned that maybe things don't happen the way we think but i have respect for the keys and i think i showed that when i was given a chance to give them my sustaining vote so i always try to be try to be careful of that i don't know that's my two cents i like it yeah priesthood keys are are are so important and if you look at it there's very few actual key holders in the church it's a it's a very small number of key holders and we share i teach religion 225 at brigham young university it's foundations of the restoration and in one of our early lessons we share some basic principles with the students regarding revelation and just how the process works because you know the lord is so organized and so orderly and and things function so well if you do it according to that section 52 talks about his pattern but one of the principles we teach them is what we call the uh the law of stewardship or the principle of stewardship and and basically it's that we can each receive in individual revelation and and absolutely should as president nelson continually challenges us to to do and to prepare and to recognize how we hear him but at the same time that revelation that we receive has boundaries and our stewardship if we are receiving revelation for those who are outside of our stewardship especially those who hold priesthood keys then you can take it to the bank that that revelation probably isn't coming from the source where you hope it is coming from it's kind of like what happened in the early days of the church i know you you discussed this in an earlier earlier episode about hiram page and and his seer stone because hiram page i think was trying to do the right thing you know he'd been told we can all receive revelation the heavens are open and and so he goes out takes his seer stone which is a common thing to have at the time and asks for revelation and he receives it he just unfortunately receives it from the wrong source because it's early and they're still learning as well but but i don't see that you know hiram page was trying to mislead the church he was just misled and deceived himself but if he'd understood that stewardship principle and if you look in the early sections especially of the doctrine and covenants boy it's over and over and over i in section one it's just multiple times and you know section 21 right while the church is being organized and basically just to paraphrase it says joseph is the guy that's rule one and rule two is see rule one joseph is the guy and and so as long as we keep that in mind and today you know it's it's president russell m nelson and if we keep that in mind we'll recognize that you know the lord is never going to tell brother alford what president nelson needs to tell the church that's just not going to happen it's just it's just not going to happen i remember i had i taught early morning seminary for several years in several states as we moved around in one of my classes in virginia one of my one of my really really great seminary students came up to me after class he hung around and he was going to about to miss the bus to go to high school but he said brother alfred i need to tell you how do i get in touch with the prophet it was president hinckley at the time he said how do i get in touch with the prophet because i have a message from god for him i received it last night in in while i was dreaming and i know it's a message i need to tell him that he needs to change something and so i i didn't call it the principle of stewardship at the time but i sat down and kind of explained how things worked and that actually no that's not the way it works the other thing i tell my students is if you find yourself on the steps of the church office building with people with protest placards and they're shouting down the prophets and quorum of the twelve you're in the wrong crowd you need to leave and you know it's just the the way the way this works stewardship and revelation and keys it's such a wonderful thing but it can absolutely be misused or abused if we don't understand the lord's process yeah and he's organized it for that specific reason so we can know right where this comes from and i've seen it happen for me ken i don't know if you've seen this but i've seen it happen where men who hold the priesthood think that somehow because they hold the priesthood they direct they can direct the women of the church in no matter what position they're in and that again is a matter of priesthood keys you may hold the priesthood but that doesn't give you any any stewardship at all over the the young women's president or the relief society president uh be you holding the priesthood you're not the key holder the bishop is section 121 defines that it's two words unrighteous dominion yeah i'm glad we i'm glad steady the ark what an that's such an interesting phrase um that uh but you know interestingly if you look at if you look at the old testament does anybody else ever touch the ark recorded in the scriptures not that yeah no no who's uzu becomes the you know the the uh the role model on what to do but but i think the message gets out at least on that point israel has other problems as we still do today but touching the ark doesn't ever seem to be a problem again the lord is here he the lord said x user did why he and he he paid the consequence so yeah it's a it's a great concept steadying the ark we just need to make sure we we're so we're supportive of church leaders and not trying to supplant them what do you call that john a sermon in a sentence is that what you've called it before yeah i i yeah i've noticed when i mark my scriptures i usually mark phrases not entire verses and sometimes you'll see a sermon in a sentence and that's that's one uh that's one of those i'm gonna look up a quote real quick do you guys remember who is from somebody in conference i think it was elder anderson said don't be more interested in changing the church than changing yourself well it reminds me while you're looking that up of alma to corianton you know you worried about this you marvel about this you think this is unjust and then at the end of his four chapters he says let not these things trouble you only let your sins trouble you you're worried about the wrong thing son [Laughter] sometimes when i've read that steady the arc i've thought you know just between us gosh that seems kind of harsh he was just trying to help but i guess that that was um the commandment not to do that was well known right uza had to know that they the way they did rules back then and teaching back then i mean things were pretty clear pretty clear-cut with the law of moses and and so who's a must have known what he was what he was doing or i don't think the lord would have exacted that that penalty um well you know revelation is an interesting thing um it's a it's a bit of a balancing act isn't it yeah um you don't want revelation you don't want to let it um swing too far to the left or too far to the right president oaks tells a wonderful story i may get some of the some of the details wrong but as i recall the story a young lady comes up to him and yeah and is just so excited and she says i'm i'm i've just i'm dating her i've married this this most wonderful person and he's so spiritual he prays about when we go to the supermarket he even prays about what kind of beans we should buy and and president oaks said oh sister basically the lord doesn't care what kind of beans you eat you know del monte and green giant are both okay and and there's a there's a line of things you things you pray over i remember having one missionary acquaintance in my mission field that prayed over what tie he should wear every day and quite frankly it's elder you got a blue one and a black one and they're both going to be okay you know at the same time sometimes i think we don't bring the lord in on decisions that oh i think he's just waiting to help us out and we have to we have to i think sometimes initiate that conversation by asking um i've had students tell me that you know they they didn't feel the need to pray about who they were marrying and in my mind if that's not one you pray over i don't know what rises to the level of requiring assistance from the holy ghost um so and each person's different you know and and i think about the things i prayed over when i was five and six and the things i pray over now and and i be real honest with you they're very different lists and and so i think as we go through life that that that list changes and heavenly father understands that and and as we mature in the gospel our our prayers change but a couple of just a couple of i guess concluding thoughts on that is first how wonderful that it's available oh my gosh how wonderful that it's available the gift of the holy ghost you know the the lord calls it an unspeakable gift and that's just the best definition i think it's just an unspeakable gift it can tell you all things and and it's our responsibility i think to figure out how the holy ghost can best help us and where you know when we when we trouble trouble him and and when we don't and there there is you know some things that definitely know and some things definitely yes and some things are in the gray area and if if you're concerned about it my advice is pray and ask the lord you know for assistance on what's concerning you because the lord has our best interest always at heart and and he knows what our needs are as it says you know before we even ask in the scriptures and and so it's revelation is just an interesting thing it's easy to go off the rails over revelation questions and so again i think the holy ghost is the one that keeps us on the rails in this and just absolutely everything else yeah i think joseph smith in my mind is the the just a prime example of a key holder in that he would tell people what the revelation he was receiving by priesthood keys but he always directed people go to the lord ask him yourself if this is correct if this is right have your own experience so as a priesthood if i'm a if i'm a priesthood holder that holds the keys to you know stewardship the keys of the priesthood i should have no fear of people going to the lord themselves and and getting a second witness of of what i'm directing them to do there shouldn't be any fear there or or even you know being offended that someone wants to go to the lord for themselves because you know because i already told them what to do i love what you said there's a delicate balance there and uh well i think was that the same talk elder oak said you have two lines of revelation you have your personal line to the lord and you have your priesthood line to the lord and they they you have access to both so uh edward partridge um was faithful to the end after this and does that idea negate the idea of one mighty and strong coming along making this prophecy kind of a conditional thing if edward partridge didn't do what he was supposed to well that first presidency publication twice from 1905 and 1907 addresses edward partridge in detail it addresses his situation and and the first presidency said this they said the man who was called and appointed of god to divide into the saints their inheritance edward partridge was at the time joseph wrote so this is in in november of the 27th of 1832 at the time was out of order that's the phrase the first presidency used neglecting his own duty and putting forth his hand to steady the ark hence he was warned of the judgment of god and the prediction was made about another one mighty and strong okay but then it goes on to say that in the midst of these times edward partridge acted a most noble and self-sacrificing part and bore many indignity indignities with the greatest patients he was taken to the public square of independence partly stripped of his clothing and badabbed with tar and feathers amid the jeers of the mob he neither complained nor murmured at this treatment but bore it well with meekness and dignity he was one of five others to offer himself as a ransom for the church and he told the mob he was willing to be scourged or killed if they would let the rest of the saints go this is after the letter i mean he he comes back and then the first presidency continues further in that letter and says who shall say that his repentance his edward partridge his sacrifices his sufferings and faithfulness did not procure for him a mitigation of the severe judgment decreed against him in the revelation contained in the 85th section of the doctrine and covenants at any rate the lord said some three years later that he was well pleased with edward partridge and and so yeah edward partridge in fact after he is just brutalized by the mob they're in front of the courthouse in independence which is just down the street from wwe phelps press edward partridge never really completely recovers and and he dies um he dies i believe about seven years later as the church is entering into into nauvoo he just never never fully recovers um but he was he was willing to do that and so that statement about the one mighty and strong it the first presidency the gist of what they were saying is it's it became nolan void uh yes in the 1830s that became nolan void we are not looking for one mighty and strong to come forward today to grab the scepter and save the church that edward partridge rose to the occasion repented and the lord accepted his repentance and and and was edward partridge was one one of the truly good guys in this dispensation yeah ken you're doing something i love here which is protecting protecting our our the saints of the past protecting their name protecting their reputation uh there's so many who want to focus on their weaknesses if you wanted to you could write a book on edward partridge and all the things he did wrong uh and the the book might be factually correct but you you would not be judging him uh you would not be judging him correctly he's a great you would miss the man you would you would miss the man um i i'd just a quick story i love about edward partridge is the lord reveals the law of consecration in section 42. you know there's those verses starting about verse 30 and then some later verses but but it's not a lot of detail and and then edward partridge's bishop is is given the instruction um comes from the lord through joseph to go up to thompson ohio when the colville saints arrive and basically put the law into practice he's a hatter he you know he can make those colville saints hats and they'll look really stylish but but he's not a lawyer he's not he's not a real estate agent and so he i'd love it that he's willing to tell joseph joseph i i need some instructions i you know how am i supposed to do this what what does it mean and the lord i just love section 51 in the book of commandments somebody wrote on it don't publish or not to be published or something like that across the top of the page and i'm so glad that they did publish it that w phelps type cast that and put it into the the book of commandments because the instructions that w that edward partridge receives enables him to begin executing the law and and and he's yeah i i think i think edward partridge is one of the real heroes from the early years of the church i mean the first bishop called in almost two millennia um yeah what a staggering responsibility yeah and we can do the same thing with our leaders and our bishops right i mean when when our bishop is up there and and he's we see oh he may be doing something we wouldn't say or he's doing something we wouldn't do we'd say well he's this isn't he wasn't seeking this position he wasn't you know he wasn't hopefully i can run the ward soon right i'm i've i have a wonderful bishop he's in human resources right that's his employment and he's doing things that that he did not probably want or ever you know thought he would do but he's doing them and it's not my place to correct him i just think he's he's got a great soul and i'm amazed at all the sacrifice he offers one of the things i learned when i was bishop about about studying the ark was i i learned that bishops know a lot of things that nobody else knows and i just thought after like a couple of months i was like you know i am never gonna question again because there's just other things that nobody else knows about what's going on that you're trying to navigate and i just thought i'm just not gonna i'm just gonna support the keys because i i know that there's things that i don't know and and i i think we i love that we can trust the lord to communicate with his leaders i guess just one parting shot and the thought on section 85 is you know yay for for them writing these things down yay for them saving them you know today i think we don't commit enough our our conversations are on email and they disappear our our conversations are over the phone and they disappear our conversations are they've been on zoom in the last uh last year or so and they disappear and there's something to be said for for permanence and if you look at the words of prophets and apostles and their counsel there's frequent and repetitive counsel to keep journals to keep you know whether it's a gratitude journal or a daily journal whatever it might be but to to record some of these things and quite frankly there have been times in my life when i'm really great at journal keeping and there have been times in my life when i'm not really great at journal keeping and being good at journal keeping it's better it's at this stage in life it's so much fun to be able to go back and check something and go oh you know i had remembered that a little bit wrong in the years but there it is recorded on the day it happened and that's that's the way it was because i recorded it i recorded it then and so i think i think maybe um the fact this is not joseph's only letter in the doctrine of covenants there are actually several letters i mean section 120 7 128 their letters section 122 120 121 122 123 there's lots of lots of letters and and so i think there's something to be said for us just remembering that we need to record you know much of our life so that our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren can benefit from that i just had the opportunity over the past year during the pandemic one of the projects i took on was taking my mother and father's journals mom's turning 90 this year and dad just turned 91 and they've got 7 000 pages of journals that we've turned into pdf pages for all of their posterity and it's so much fun to be able to just have that record and and i will confess it has spurred me to be more more diligent in my my record-keeping and so i would just i would just give that as a you know i'd that's not one of the direct messages out of section 85 but i think it's an ancillary one that that's just useful to remember yeah let me mention a paragraph from the come follow me manual before we go forward it says the history described in verse 1 recorded the names of those who had received inherited inheritances legally in zion however this history was more than just administrative it was also a valuable record of the saints quote manner of life their faith and works close quote that's from verse two and then they come follow me manual says are you keeping a personal history or journal what could you record about your manner of life faith and works that might be a blessing to future generations how might this history be a blessing for you so i think that's exactly what you were saying ken thank you yeah let's go now to section 86 can you give us some backstory and background of what's happening before we dive into the verses here you bet section 86 actually follows section 85 but just by a little more than a week it's the 6th of december 1832 and we don't know absolutely for certain but there's enough little breadcrumbs and clues that that lead folks to conclude that this section looks like it clearly comes out of joseph's work on what we call today the joseph smith translation which the doctrine of covenants calls the new translation or simply the translation so just very briefly then joseph um has oliver cowdery purchase a finney cooperstown bible as it's called today in 1828 edition and then there are various scribes and joseph uses that he calls it the main branch of his calling for a period and it's the way that the lord does a couple of things first he teaches jos joseph additional things about the gospel joseph learns a great deal about gospel principles during that translation he also receives numerous revelations oh my goodness there are dozens of revelations in the doctrine and covenants that tie either directly like section 76 or indirectly like section 91 to the translation of the joseph smith translation this is one of those sections and so what happens is they they start doing the old testament and then in section 45 joseph's told hey you're asking great questions on some things go do the new testament so they leave the old testament alone go do the new testament then when they finish that they go back pick up the old testament and then reach the apocrypha and section 91 and that's another story for another day but they have done they have gone through the new testament for the first time about a year before this revelation is recorded now interestingly it looks like from the record that we have of joseph's work on the joseph smith translation that joseph made no changes to matthew 13 regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares the first time joseph went through it they just didn't make any changes and so what what it looks like was happening here in december 1832 is that sydney rigdon is once again with joseph as as scribe by this point as they're reviewing them the material city reagan is the main scribe he's assigned that responsibility in section 35 but by this point frederick g williams is serving as joseph's primary scribe as he's kind of touching up and working on final edits of the joseph smith translation but for whatever reason sidney rigdon comes in and is helping joseph at this point and we know that because it's in its uh in sidney rigdon's handwriting and what happens is it looks like joseph just receives additional guidance and inspiration about those verses in matthew 13 in the king james version and joseph receives this information and what he learns from section 86 is that this is very much a parable of the last days it has an application for the early apostles and when the savior gives that parable if you turn to matthew 13 the apostles ask because it's also after the parable of the sower those two parables parable of the sower and parable of wheat and terrorists kind of go together they're in in almost neighboring verses in matthew 13 but the apostles don't understand either one and they ask the lord please help us out tell us what they mean and so jesus explains both of them to them but what we learn in section 86 is that through the years there's been a major error creep in to the the bible as we have it today regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares because in the bible it says that the wheat and the tares are there and that what will happen is in matthew 13 30 it says gather ye together so go out and do the harvest gather ye together and in matthew in the bible it says first the tares well the joseph smith translation and doctrine of covenants 86 now absolutely turn that around and what it says in joseph smith matthew is first the wheat into my barn or as it says in section 86 let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe then ye shall first gather out the wheat now think about the way the gospel is being you know shared with the world in these the latter days are we going out and gathering wicked people people that are trying to tear down the church no we're gathering those that are seeking christ and our our invitation is to invite all to come out of christ and that doesn't mean that someone that that was doing something wrong can't repent and straighten up and join the church but those that are actively working against the cause of god you know the way the matthew account is is they're supposed to be gathered first and that's just not the just not the way it works and it's uh so i think it's helpful to remember with section 86 there's a statement from uh elder bruce r mcconkey in the doctrinal new testament commentary he kind of talks about parables because i think sometimes we think that parables are designed to enlighten us and and make things crystal clear no no and and elder mcconkey points out very clearly he says parables seldom clarify a truth rather they obscured and hide the doctrine involved so that none but only those that are already enlightened and informed are able to grasp the full meaning and then elder mcconkie said nowhere is this better illustrated than the parable of the wheat and the tares when jesus first gave the parables even the disciples didn't understand it they asked for an interpretation and he gave it well partially the lord still had to give a special revelation and that's section 86 in the latter days so the full meaning of this marvelous parable might sink into the hearts of men so as you look at section 86 the question i guess is what new things do we learn in section 86 and i think the big thing we learn is that it's the wheat that's gathered first we're looking for people that want to come unto christ that's that's the key gospel will be offered to everyone but we're seeking those who want to come unto christ but section 86 also teaches who the the sower is because the parable talks about a man going out and sowing and section 86 clearly says that's the apostles they have that responsibility if you think of what an apostle is it's a special representative of christ you know whose mission is to help us come unto the savior it also clearly defines in section 86 who the enemy is and it says very clearly it's satan it's babylon it's the world that's who we're that's who the tares are it also defines see and this wouldn't have made a lot of sense to the apostles back in the meridian of time because there had been no apostasy but he talks about in section 86 the apostles falling asleep because the apostles were killed and an apostasy occurred and it talks about the church in the wilderness which wouldn't have made a great deal of sense probably to those early apostles that's the apostasy it helps us better understand what it means to be tender wheat section 86 defines it as weakness or newness in the gospel you know people whose testimonies are still maybe a little shaky and developing it also helps us i think clear see a little bit clearer that tears are you know not just those that fight against the church but also you know probably also evil doctrines that they're espousing and then it talks about the harvest and the burning and now in this dispensation that's the millennium which is you know going to be a key a key point in this dispensation and it points out that the angels are anxious to reap and and wilford woodruff and others have had comments about about that and so section 86 it's a it's a wonderful wonderful section that the lord takes it's the doctrine of covenants is sometimes a wonderful commentary on other scripture and this is a classic example of the the doctrine of covenants being commentary on in this case the bible matthew chapter chapter 13. one other thing that we get from joseph's work with the joseph smith translation that figures into this because it talks in section 86 about the end of the world and in joseph smith matthew or you can go to the joseph translation both because joseph matthew of course is just excerpt from the jst but it it says there in joseph matthew 1 verse 4 that as he christ sat upon the mount of olives the disciples came unto him privately saying tell us when shall these things be which thou said whistle has said concerning the destruction of the temple and the jews and what is the sign of thy coming or the end of the world and then joseph adds this wonderful phrase in the joseph smith translation or the destruction of the wicked which is the end of the world and so we that's also i think alluded to in in section 86 that it's talking about the the end of the world you know there have been lots of people we always have that image of the guy with the long beard and the sign you know walking around the end is near well the the end of the world is the destruction of the wicked as you know preparing us for the millennial the millennial reign of the savior when there will be when you're not going to have to lock your car yeah you're not going to have to lock your front door okay um and and people that were in the military like me are going to be out of a job there's not going to be a need for they won't make war anymore oh i love it and so so section 86 is ju it's just fun i just i just really love it when the lord kind of takes joseph and he puts his arm around him and just kind of says hey i'm going to pull the curtain back for you yeah i love it so let me let me pull it back these scriptures have been there people been reading for thousands of years let me pull the curtain back here's what it means and i just love that when that happens and section 86 is a classic case elder maxwell called that like exploring a new room in the scriptures right in your own house where you you find a new fireplace to be warmed by um i wrote a book on parables it sold dozens of copies mostly to my mother but i learned something very important in verse three that i have has impacted me he he even he throws in ken the lord throws in in verse three a little bit of the parable of the sower when he says the tares or the weeds choke the wheat um in verse three and if you go to matthew 13 verse 22 it this is how that happens how do tares choke the wheat or saints he says these are people who received the seed but the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word and he becometh unfruitful that's a place where i stop with my students and say what are the cares of this world and what are the deceitfulness of riches that can that can spoil our faith that can choke out our faith uh there's so much to learn there because as i become more and more worldly right as i get caught up in in whatever's happening in the world and i i just don't have time for the lord it's not that the soil is bad i've just got so many other weeds in my life that the testimony doesn't get any time it doesn't get any sunlight it doesn't get any resources because hey i've got a lot going on right i've got i've got a i've got seasons on netflix i need to watch uh i've got you know i've got professional basketball games recorded uh i don't think this is a this is bad people this is when i allow the what did you call is it the doctrine of the world i think you call it ken uh to just choke my life it takes all the resources takes all my time takes all my energy um and that oh it both it has scared me and i think the parables of jesus elder mcconkey was right um he veils the meaning and then when you see it unveiled it should scare you because then you find out you've got a lot of changing to do well and once you understand it then you're responsible for it yeah yeah i think elder mcconkie also said he made a comment about the parable of the sower and talked about that that type of soil he called it the four kinds of soil because really it's more about the the soil than it is about the sower um but he said that uh the the place where it fell among thorns with the weeds is good soil as evidenced by the growth of the undesirable plants but he he used the phrase but the chair the tares end up choking them maybe he got that from section 86 instead of be overcoming him they get choked by the tares and i just wanted to add that i came across a book years ago called money for nothing and it was about people who had won the lottery in michigan and there were a couple of chapters a few chapters in this book where people who won the lottery said this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me and one guy said i made some investments and i spend my life now with lawyers and lawsuits every day another person said we used to shop at this mom-and-pop grocery store and they were so nice they'd always put a couple extra oranges or extra apples in our bag and now that they know we've won the lottery nobody does that anymore this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me and whenever i talk about those weeds the deceitfulness of riches that you mentioned they always like say how are rich is deceitful and if you think if i just had that then everything would be fine well no it just gives you a new set of problems maybe in some ways and that's how they can be deceitful as people are saying and i know joe hank you've got lots of jokes about money can't buy happiness but i thought you know these people are saying yeah i want a million dollars it's the worst thing that's ever happened to me i'm like what yeah it seems that the lord knows um what did paul say the love of money is the root of all evil not money it's the love of money that is the root of all evil uh man ken i really love this this section now it's it's a fun section and the the joseph smith translation is just filled with nuggets and when you get something in the doctrine of covenants that expands what's in the joseph smith translation it's a double win right it's just it's just very cool it's one thing to have a commentary write about the parables i tried that too hank but to have the savior comment on his own parable it's like having abinadi comment on isaiah oh thank you a prophet can comment on this prophet that's hard to understand uh that's so helpful ken i really liked when you talked about verse four the blade is yet tender it says it again in verse six the blade is the early days of the church merely your faith is weak um yeah this is a brand new little church uh and he's the lord is kind of sheltering it you can say he's trying to protect it from from those tares and we can do the same thing for new members for children and youth right protect those tender testimonies from uh from the great persecutor of the church right verse 3. there's a great uh great phrase from elder holland and i i would have to look up which talk it was in but i remember the phrase and he says it's always 1830 somewhere and i love that phrase that somewhere in the world it's always 1830 there's just a little band of saints the gospel has just barely been introduced there and the blade is yet tender you know tender and young and and so i just think you know wherever wherever you are listening to this that probably not not too far away that there's either you know a branch of the church where it's like 1830 or there are individual members of the church where in their family in their home it's like 1830. yeah they've just received the book of mormon they're just learning these doctrines and and the you know the wheat is still it's still tender and tender and green i love it and we can do a lot to protect those tender those tender blades please join us for part two of this podcast [Music]

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Length: 66min 39sec (3999 seconds)

Published: Fri Jul 30 2021