Fatherhood, Oxford Union and Ukraine | Konstantin Kisin

we have this conversation in this country all the time if labor are in the reason the NHS is broken is because Labor's broken it if the conservatives are in is because the Tory Tory Cuts or whatever no one seems to understand that like all of these problems are Eternal they're gonna go on forever they're not solvable no one's going to solve the NHS no one's going to solve climate change no one's going to solve anything what we can do is Tinker at the edges and improve certain aspects of it at the cost of others at the cost of others [Music] my conversation today is with Constantine kissing I'm looking forward to it enormously this will be the third time we've talked and I've come to regard him as a good friend and a very spirited and insightful man who grew up in Russia and is known Britain he's recently written a book and immigrant's love letter to the West which I thoroughly recommend it's a powerful reminder of why we should not take the good things we have for granted he's also a co-host of the very popular social commentary podcast trigonometry which I know has many viewers in my own home country as well as here in Britain so Constantine thank you so much for your time it's great to see you again it's good to see you John thanks for making it back over here and since we last talked uh you've become a dad Nikolai Nicolas just after we were together last time how is that experience affected your view of the world well first of all it's awesome it's just awesome it's a gr I I it's it's great it's the best thing ever um Todd as well I I we just we've just come back from a three-week visit to America and he was ironic that even with all the jet lag and the traveling and all the rest of it I haven't slept that well for 11 months now as I did on the trip so uh not getting a lot of sleep but I love it uh has it changed me yeah I think it's it's softened me a little bit actually it's taken some of the edges off it's made me aware that it's really really important to try and communicate what I'm trying to communicate in a way that makes it easier for other people to hear because I think before I felt the you know the most important thing is to get my opinion out in a way that draws attention let's say whereas now I really feel it's about persuading people and part of it is when you see a baby you kind of realize that all human beings with that thing once and they've been shaped and morphed into different things by the experiences that they have but they were all that pure innocence one so it's made it easier for me to connect with people as human beings I think does he have a sense of humor uh yes he's learned to play peekaboo so he sticks his face in the corner of the sofa and waits for for him or for me or my wife to say where's Nikolai and then he's like you know he does that he's got a very cheeky sense of humor yeah oh that's Ah that's terrific tell me um uh it won't be long he'll get a bit older and he'll notice his friends uh using social media and he's going to want to use it too how are you going to handle that what will your attitude be the idealistic version of me says he's not getting the smartphone until at least 16. oh good luck with that which is what everyone says so I guess what the truth is we'll find out um but we we just had you on trigonometry and this is one of the things we talked about the impact social media is having on us I genuinely think this isn't a mission for me but anyone who invents a smartphone that allows children to use certain apps and not others um is going to make a killing because there's going to be a huge demand from parents for a way that their children are able to still be connected to the world because that's important you know we've got a a guy that works for us who's 17 years old and he's incredible at understanding social media and YouTube and so on so you don't want to cut your children off from this new technology and being able to use it for for work and for their lives it's going to be essential on the other hand I think there's so much darkness and misery and addiction frankly that comes with with being on a phone particularly when your brain is not fully formed that is definitely something that we have to protect our children against as well so I guess we'll find out is the truth I think it's pretty tough being a parent now frankly and maybe it's tough being a kid too tell me something have you noticed that he tends to look to mum for some things and dad for others I had four children they're all adults now three of you know two of them have got children of Their Own but I noticed at a very early age they'd go to mum for warmth and nurture and I was the one that was meant to be the entertainment Act and excitement and a bit of roughhousing came from Dad yeah that's well that I don't know if that's what he goes to me for but that's what he gets so yeah you know I took him in the air and you know do all sorts of stuff with him like that I I think I think I think it's also about what men and women tend to naturally lean towards I think when I look at my wife sort of as I'm throwing him in there I can see particularly for the first few months she was not particularly comfortable with that it's like you know they're very much in caring and nurturing and protection mode whereas as a dad you're much more likely to go the other way so that's what that's why you have both both I think are important don't they oh 100 100 the play and the simulation yeah the boundary stretching the warmth and the nurture absolutely it does matter um you recently said though uh moving on that and I'm quoting one of the biggest unspoken truths of modern Western Society is that women have been brainwashed into acting in ways that are fundamentally against their own long-term happiness and well-being in order to maintain the myth that men and women are the same uh you'll be surprised I've got quite a lot of uh a lot of hostile attention online did it yeah it got a lot of very positive attention as well I'm only joking of course but yeah uh but we all know that it is I'm not saying anything that people don't know and it was sparked by a conversation I had with somebody look there are different ways to slice that particular statement I probably regret using the word brainwashed just because you've made it harder for people to hear what I was saying even people who agree with me generally but if you look at what dating on social media or dating on apps has done to the way that men and women connect and have sex and all of these things women are increasingly now encouraged to have sex in the way that we think of men being naturally more leaning towards which is transactional you know one-night stands not no attachment the fact is I mean it doesn't actually make men happy either but it really doesn't make women happy if you talk to women about it and we've had a number of guests on the show particularly Louise Perry and Mary Harrington both of whom I really think you'd have a great conversation with talking about many of these things but also what really sparked that was a couple of conversations I had with women and one of them was I was after my Oxford Union speech which I'm sure you'll ask me about I was invited to do a number of things and one of them was unheard our good friends are unheard they hosted an evening that I was a part of and some and Freddie who hosts that that show he asked me he said there's something different about you since you since you you had a son something there's something going on and I said the future is no longer an abstraction he has a face and it has a name and we talked about that and how my view of the world has changed and you know that that's generally what I think and then I was standing outside and I I bummed a cigarette off Freddie and we were standing out there being very naughty and smoking and this couple came out and the woman came over to me she said thank you so much for that I I really you know it's really changed the way I think about things particularly about children I never thought about children never thought that's what I wanted but but this is what I want now and I said how old are you and she said 43. wow and I hope to God that they're able to to have a child and and get what they want but the truth is that's unlikely there are many many people who are in that position in our world um who've been look I said brainwashed maybe it was the wrong word but who've been encouraged to forget about the things that actually matter I'm not saying every woman should have a child I'm not saying any there are no shoulds in what I'm saying and actually I think that's one of the places people often have gone wrong and one of the reasons people resist Traditional Values quote unquote is that they've been imposed with a sort of Iron Will instead of being told that you know what do you want in life well you want meaning and fulfillment that's what everybody wants what is the path to that for you for most people not for everybody but for most people that is going to involve family and children and so that was the first conversation and then I just you know I have so many conversations with women who you don't want to say this in public because it's uncomfortable and you get attacked and whatever who say look I you know I was obsessed with my career the whole time and then I had a child and it literally changes your brain it literally changes you and it does and I I think we've got to start talking about it you know as well as I do we are demographically speaking in a really dark place and if we continue down this path it's not going to end well but more important you know we can't ask people to have children for the sake of you know the nation that's not going to happen but what we can do is say to people what do you actually want what that meaning that you crave that every human being craves that purpose that fulfillment you know what human beings have known for Millennia where that comes from and I don't know that you know this existence that we live in now is necessarily given a lot of people that I mean we talk about a mental health crisis well the answer to mental health is quite often meaning and purpose and for some people that is going to be work for some people that's going to be the contribution they make to others for a lot of people it's going to be their own family you're really alluding there to what some people are now starting to call the depopulation bomb because we've had decades since the club of Ryan are saying well earlier Malthus in this country saying the world can't support this population we've got to cut it back and not many people have really realized that outside of Africa or some parts of the Middle East that's what's happening you know now you've actually got a depopulation bomb China leading the way it won't be long the maths are fascinating on this before it will be unusual for somebody to have siblings and aunts and uncles and so that most basic of family communities is Contracting and I suspect we're starting to see the beginnings of another pandemic a pandemic of loneliness well we're in one already this atomized society that we live in um and you know it's not just about culture there's an economic Dimension to it as well which is how hard it is for young people to pair up and get together it's not by any means the only reason but that's also part of it but yeah I mean look the a bunch of atomized individuals on their cell phones uh you know on the internet on social media that's not a recipe for a happy society and so the downstream impacts of that way of being are going to be tremendous and I mean they're not going to be good they're not going to be good I think that's clear um so let's Trace that through firstly the impact of social media on the way we date now you've touched on that there's a bit of research around showing actually that it's disastrous you've got a narrow group of men who are very attractive via social media dating apps much more attractive than they might be if you've met them at the pub or you know in the park the way you might have once and they get all the attention and that's not good for them and then they will cruelly just dump somebody in the ways you can with social media when they're bored so it's not working for women either what impact is that sort of social media role now in people meeting and forming relationships well they're not forming relationships a lot of them and you say dump cruelly actually a lot of them don't need to because uh the you know this idea that um those men that very top strand of men they'll quite openly be saying to to women now oh I want an open relationship you know I don't want to commit and women are in a position where because they want a guy who is you know attractive and successful and high status and you know financially secure and all of that they will hope that they are the one girl that can convince this guy to settle down with her but he's got no incentive to do that uh and the impact on that is bad for both men and women by the way because um this isn't good for men this isn't good for men uh in many different ways for a start Men actually also feel the same disgust after a one night stand that women do um most men but also on top of that uh it's not good for men because the the stable as you well know a stable relationship is something that makes you ten times the man that you are that's certainly been my experience you and I wouldn't be sitting here if it wasn't for my wife I wouldn't be half the man I am if it wasn't for my wife and that's because we built a life together in which she had a massive stake in my success and I had a massive stake in her success a series of transactional relationships isn't going to do that for you it also strikes me that for the boys and girls if I can put it this way who are not terribly appealing via social media if that makes sense so if you meet someone in the pub you get the full sort of feel for their relationships so maybe they're somebody who doesn't look particularly interesting on social media but when you meet them there's a great sense of humor there's chemistry there's warmth it's a very different thing and they potentially can miss out good decent honest people who will looking for a respectful and meaningful relationship missing out all together and maybe that's partly why we've now got this extraordinary thing right across the West with men on their own not forming relationships living at home late into their lives with their own parents and on top of that we have a whole series of things that give men an opportunity to experience the illusion of success without actually having to work for it I'm someone who's who spent a lot of my childhood playing video games and I I haven't I'm not someone who thinks video games as the root of all evil or whatever what they do is they give you a fake sense of accomplishment and if it if you're not properly socialized if you don't spend time around other people if you're stuck in that world you can give you the sense that you're doing well that doesn't match up to like how other other people actually perceive you as well so um there are a lot of problems with all of that so back on the loneliness and the family formation side of it one of the economic problems that in My Views are rising out of there's no other way of putting it the economic mismanagement of most western economies over the last 15 years is that young people can't get a start on the economic ladder they can't get into a house that has two obvious amongst many other implications it delays family formation relationship and family formation and it also means that those young people don't have an investment in our culture and there's some early emerging evidence now that that's you know the old saying that if you're not a socialist at 18 you've got no heart if you're still a socialist at 30 you've got no brains but if anything now through their 20s and 30s they're drifting further to the left because they don't feel invested in the system this isn't sounding like a Terribly Happy story no it's not and you know this is a particular problem here in the UK where people are locked out of the opportunity to live in a home that they can call their own and of course that's gonna you know and we see that the average age of a house purchase I think is mid-30s onwards first time you buy your own place um I remember of course a lot of people who don't buy their own place they're stuck renting probably now forever because they're just never going to catch up uh the average age of having the first child for a woman is going up at the same time um you know I'm a good example my wife and I had our first first son at first child at 39 and it's part for many of the same reasons for many of the same reasons uh because uh you know it was only when we had our own place and it took my wife a few years to settle down and to feel comfortable then that conversation opened up I think if we'd if we'd done that earlier we would have had children earlier and we would have had more children like now that I've had the first I'd happily bang out five or six or whatever not going to happen in our case but but that's kind of how I feel about it so yeah it's a big big problem and what people don't seem to understand is that you know the reason this issue isn't getting solved is like the fact that we endlessly print money to indebt our children and grandchildren the reason the housing problem isn't getting solved in this country is that too many middle class people who are already on the housing ladder who are invested in the price of housing always going up and they will refuse and punish any politician who offers to solve the housing problem part of solving it is reducing the price of housing there's no way around that yeah it is a real social and political and economic problem in my view no getting away from that at all we also know that vast numbers of people in the west will say my only chance of ever having a home a roof over my head is through inheritance and I think that sets up unhelpful family Dynamics as well it does and also the parents are dying later now so you might be in your 50s or 60s by the time that happens do we want a you know generation of people who are still sort of children because you you know that you're not fully an adult until I think until you you have something that you're responsible for really and your house your family those are things that really force you to mature quickly generation of people in their 50s who've never had that I don't think that's a recipe for a good Society so you've written a book you know a love letter to the West you enjoy your life here as the same time I must say you make a great contribution to the community um but can I ask you you've seen the alternative because you grew up in Russia we'll come back to this later in terms of what's happening in Russia and the Ukraine later but but in the short term you've got a particularly Clear Vision of all of this because you had difficulties imposed from on top of your like what we're doing in the west we're doing to ourselves it doesn't have to be like this must strike you as a great irony it is it is I I think I always try to caution people I think those of us who are frustrated with many of the things that are happening in the West can sometimes you know overdo the comparison with the Soviet Union in which I grew up in I I I think it's important to have a sense of perspective the reason I talk about some of the issues that we've got going on is that they they need to be addressed uh but we are still the freest most prosperous most comfortable most stable most safe secure Societies in the world and My worry is as I know your worry is that if we don't appreciate that and don't celebrate that we can throw it away and that's really why we're talking about these young people who are locked out of Housing and so on if you don't have a stake on your Society why would you appreciate it why would you celebrate it why would you defend it you know uh that's really the the thing that I think we should focus on so of course it's important and this is what I try to do is to remind people not to throw away the baby with the bath water when it comes to criticizing our societies but of course we have a lot to do as well understood now since we last spoke you have exploded everywhere including thanks to you of course no not at all but yeah you put together some very very convincing words in an Oxford debating uh Union uh performance uh and what you said about workers or January this year it's quite recent isn't it um I understand it's been viewed over a hundred million times online and maybe a lot more we don't really know why do you think what you said had such an incredible impact because you did it quite sympathetically actually you were careful in the way that you assertively attract attack the comment but you did it with some sensitivity I think that's why I think that's one of the reasons why I think another of the reasons why is that we live in a society in which adults are afraid of children and so when you see someone who's speaking to young people in on their turf at a college at a university um and who's prepared to speak truth to them but to do it in a way that's got a bit of humor a bit of levity that tries to meet them where they're at and says look I know this is what you think here are some things you probably haven't thought about I think that's quite appealing to people because as I say we live in a society where we're fearful of telling young people what we think and what perhaps they need to hear so I think that's another of the reasons and the third reason is I tackle very directly uh the Doomsday narrative about climate change and Net Zero and I explained to people the reality of that issue and how that isn't isn't going to be addressed so the fact that no one has ever told these people in the UK who glue themselves to roads and throw soup on paintings and whatever that this country is responsible produces one percent of global emissions and is responsible for another one percent so two percent you know the idea of killing pensioners every winter with fuel poverty doesn't seem as appealing if you recognize that it has absolutely no impact on global warming whatsoever um so I think it's the combination of all of those three and you know hopefully uh if I say so myself someone trying to use logic we don't have a lot of that going on lately and I also think that as you say the sensitivity to other people and to you know trying to ex find a way to connect not to point point the finger and say you're stupid your work you're this you're that but to say look here are some things here's some rational arguments about where you may want to modify your thinking um I think that's why and actually one of the most gratifying things that has happened since is I've had a lot of contact with a lot of people who anyone watching this conversation would be shocked that I even prepared to speak to me um people reach out to me and go you know what I can see that you're trying to win people over let's talk uh from a lot of people who who who a lot of people sort of on our side if you like if there is such a thing would consider like the enemy I think that's the thing that I'm really really Keen to get past is we've got ourselves locked into you know they call it the culture war and once you start calling something a war it's very difficult to see the humanity of people on the other side um I always try and make this point I don't know about you maybe maybe this isn't true for you but I know that when I was 20 years old I was stupid and arrogant and thought I knew everything and I had the solutions to everything and I was well you actually thought it I knew you knew right well and that's kind of how it is right so we've got to remember that you know young people are like that and some of them are persuadable some of them not all of them of course but some of them are let's try and persuade them it does tell you something about the way in which we now educate raise and educate our young people that in a sense what you did was to put up an alternative moral proposition as well as I saw it you know you're really saying well if you pursue policies single-mindedly thinking the only thing challenged before us is climate change and we've got to turn ourselves inside out well what happens if that results in people in the rest of the world starving because it can uh that's a moral Dimension as well but it's also a practical one isn't it because they won't care about the environment that's one aspect of it so there's a there are alternative moral perspectives for young people who are idealistic and care about moral issues but then there's a very hard-nosed practical one if you really want to ensure that climate change policy is demolished break down the liberal Global Order and allow the autocrats what they want which is domination of global politics that's right and I think there's a little bit about that from well I mean if the Russians and then now I don't say the Russian people and the Chinese people but they're people who write those countries the people who run those countries if they have say well you're not going to advance arguments about climate change very effectively and that is at stake now because they are plainly seeing us as degenerate as lost as ineffective divided ill-disciplined and they're right we all listings we should be aware that we are all those things and the reason that I've been speaking about this and the reason you speak about this is that that is the path that we're sliding down that slope and either we stop it uh all those things that people care about are going to go in in the Dustbin of History along with our civilization so I think that's why it's important but in terms of the the moral Frameworks and all of that I think it's really much simpler than that in some ways the the single line that has made the greatest impact to my understanding of the world is from Thomas Soul who to me is one of the greatest modern thinkers there are no Solutions only trade-offs you're not gonna solve climate change you're not going to solve anything you can make adjustments and you know this much better than I do from being in government every policy has a trade-off and very often not ever I think always actually the reason that issues become difficult and controversial is precisely because the trade-offs are as bad as the solution quite often and you have to pick very carefully how exactly you calibrate your solution to avoid causing a lot more damage than you're trying to prevent and we've completely lost the ability to see that Nuance yeah everything now is seen as you know we have this conversation in this country all the time if laborer in the reason the NHS is broken is because Labor's broken it if the conservatives are in it's because the conservatory Tory Cuts or whatever that no one seems to understand that like all of these problems are Eternal they're gonna go on forever they're not solvable no one's going to solve the NHS no one's going to solve climate change no one's going to solve anything what we can do is Tinker at the edges and improve certain aspects of it at the cost of others at the cost of others this was exactly and you and I talked about this last time what happened over covid people forgot that safety has trade-offs the freedom has trade-offs this is what no one wants to say no one wants to say yes freedom of speech has the consequence that some guy is gonna be insulting to someone else online and someone might get upset but that is the price we're willing to pay because we want to live in a free Society yes not locking down the country may may we don't know may have caused more people to die but locking down the country also caused more people to die so which one of those do we want how do we calibrate that policy we've completely lost the ability to have those conversations which is why I think it's really important that we we try to bring that idea back there are no Solutions there just aren't you know this am I wrong about this John is no you're absolutely right yeah and the other great problem though is that a good government reflecting a good Society recognizes not just that there's no absolute answer to anything but that you actually have to be able to manage many difficult issues at any given time you and I have to do that in our own personal lives and so do governments and so what we're reducing politics to is sort of a series of one-trick Pony shows where there's a crisis here and that's the only thing we'll talk about it's not just that there are trade-offs we're ignoring a whole lot of other problems which will swamp that one if we don't pay them attention as well that's right and I think that's a great tragedy but you talk about how we communicate after that as I understand it um uh you got a lot of opportunity to communicate um my guess is it was overwhelmingly on conservative shows because others don't want to engage that proved to be a bit of a problem uh well look it is what it is I I'm kind of used to it now I'd like to break out of it because I feel like what I'm saying isn't you know as you know I'm not conservative I certainly have some conservative views I have some not conservative use um that it's frustrating to me because I'm I'm I try to just express my opinion but it is what it is uh the only left-wing publication uh that did interview me about it uh was a guy who came in here and then um lied about me repeatedly to the point that they had to take old chunks out of his article out afterwards that was the only left Winger that ever well he I don't even know he's left wing he writes for electron publication and everybody else was somewhere in the center or right leaning and that's because they're afraid uh it's because they're afraid of of what will happen if they quote-unquote platform someone who who said the things that I said um it's a sad State of Affairs but that's what it is can I ask you you came from a country where there must have been a lot of fear because Russia was autocratic for so long and people's lives were closely surveilled and you could get into a lot of trouble saying the wrong thing it seems to me that we're becoming surprisingly bound up by fear in our culture now as well yeah and it's very frustrating for me because you know people say to me oh you're so brave and I'm like what are you talking about what are you talking about what is brave about expressing your opinion in public I don't get it I don't understand why people are so afraid and look it's easy for me to say because the truth of it is that you know when Francis and I started trigonometry for example we didn't have a huge amount to lose we were two comedians operating on the British comedy circuit you know there was not a huge amount for us to lose even though if it may have felt like it there are other people who you know JK Rowling for example is a good example of somebody who had a lot potentially to lose in terms of you know she's not going to lose her wealth or status or whatever but you're gonna end up you know getting a bunch of death threats and hate or hate stuff and whatever that's unpleasant but I just I just think we we give way too much importance to other people's words and opinions we've got to a point where people are fearful of a Twitter backlash well turn your phone off you know it's not real that stuff isn't real uh you know uh people sometimes think sometimes people will introduce me as controversial do you know what in my entire life not one person not one has ever come up to me on the street other than to say Well done congratulations keep going now that's a really interesting point because there's that disconnect isn't it yeah completely you you they try to box you in with the idea that they'll be fearful consequences but you and Francis we've been talking about this you now find friendly people everywhere tell me after your own wanting to engage you totally totally and uh this this fear of being dragged on social media whatever I just think people are I'm sorry for saying this you're a stuffy old conservative John but people need to strap off thank you very much they need to strap on a pair they really do they really really do it's not as scary as you think it's not as dangerous as you think now look I understand people some people work in in institutions and organizations where if they do say something they're going to lose their job but that in itself is horrendous it is it is it is and that's why woke corporates it's it's not good it's not good no it's not they were once leaders in defending our values so often now they're pursuing values that turn out to be very narrow and inappropriate comes back to the point that I made earlier about being a society as being a society in which adults are afraid of children because that's really what's happening it's the 50 60 something white straight male CEOs who are afraid of either their grandchildren or their kids at home or the the the people at the lower rungs of their own organizations and frankly I understand it because we you know we're trigonometry we now employ people and you know the people we employ are great but nonetheless you know the the some of the things that young people now expect to have the input on from a fairly low level position within the organization I find that like if if I had the cheek to to to try and sort of get involved in that stuff at their age like that I wouldn't have had a very easy career let's put it that way like we we we tolerate a lot from young people and I think that's part of it as well people are scared of their own employees which I I you know I don't think that's the way it should be I think people need to show a bit of metal and on that I understand there was a very interesting conversation between a BBC journalist and Elon Musk recently yeah uh and the journalist said that Twitter had a hate speech problem but when he was challenged by musk couldn't name a simple a single example and this seems to me to strike at this very problem now where people will put up a feelings based prejudice-based perspective and not worry about whether it's backed by the evidence and on top of that this is particularly true in journalism where I think there's more than just that going on if I'm honest I think what you have is journalists increasingly are now playing to the crowd of other journalists they have stopped trying to seek the truth to cover the issues fairly what they're trying to do is make sure that other journalists see them having asked the right questions and so if you're interviewing me Elon Musk and you are the tech editor of the BBC you have to be seen to challenge him because in the BBC's conception Elon Musk is this evil right-wing billionaire who's ruined Twitter and so you have to ask that question and the other thing is it shows you how terrible they have become at their jobs how do you know the the worst thing about that interview isn't even what you've just raised what happened was the guy ran out of questions ran out of questions how do you run out of questions when you interview interviewing the guy who says that he wants to preserve Humanity by extending it over several planets how do you run out of questions when you're interviewing a guy who's built one of the most successful breakthrough Innovative companies in the world in Tesla how do you run out of questions when you're interviewing a guy who spent a huge fortune and overpaid in order to buy Twitter because he believes that changing the way our conversations are being had is essential to changing the way our society is going how do you run out of questions how is that possible how how that that is a dereliction of Duty I know when we were in America just now I was on Bill Marsh show along with Elon Musk and Bill Maher is a seasoned interviewer he's he's had his show on HBO and Elsewhere for ages and you know I hope he doesn't mind sharing me sharing this but he was so excited about having Elon on and he had Elon on for about 20 25 minutes something like that and he was like a kid in a candy shop as they'd say in America how do you run out of questions how and it only means that you you just fundamentally are not good at your job uh it brings to mind something that Richard Dawkins said he was distressed expressed dismay at the lack of curiosity amongst young people and made the comment that it's only these pesky Christians amongst young people that seem to have any great interest in exploring ideas have we lost our curiosity I think some people have you and I still have it I think and the fact that people listen to your show and to mine I think that shows that a lot of people still have it um you know look no one can measure any of these things really you know I I could sit here and make a very strong argument for how our society's lost its curiosity I can sit here and make a very good argument for why it hasn't it's it's the glass half full half empty thing I think for me and we talked about it over lunch actually you know we were talking about whether we can win this if you like whatever this is or not and you said to me and I thought about and I was like I don't know what I do know is what my purpose is and what my mission is as long as there are people who are curious I'm gonna try and feed them uh and if if and if if other people see that and get drawn into it fantastic that's all really we can do yeah well I think we were reinforcing one another's prejudices because I agree with that and I think it's really important um but you touched on America um how do you feel about America uh what are your key observations about the future of the so-called culture wars there because it seems like a nation divided from top to bottom although maybe the upside of that is without wanting to preempt your views is that at least they are engaged in a full throttled exchange of ideas whereas I sometimes think in other Western countries the battle's over it's interesting I think there's truth to that I also think there's truth to the argument that they're not actually engaged in the Battle of ideas now it feels like it's not ideas that are being lobbed over the barricades anymore it's it's it it's there's a kinetic element starting to come through there which um you know we were in DC and you see people it was interesting our team actually were out and about and they were filming stuff and they went to a protest about trans rights and there were a lot of people shouting and our guys you can't tell which side of the argument they're on they went over to one of the people who was most profoundly present let's say shouting and whatever and they said can you tell us what this is about what it what do you I said no so how if you're protesting for something why wouldn't you want to persuade a single person what you actually believe in it's become very kind of so tribal and so you know here's my placard and here's your placard that it doesn't feel like there's a lot of Battle of ideas going on and so much Battle of power um but I wrote a piece of my sub stack uh actually on the plane back I couldn't sleep so I just typed it out on my phone which is called the American anti-woke Coalition and I talk about the split between the conservatives and the old school liberals about some of these issues and it's a very interesting dynamic because I think the the the path to addressing many of these Progressive radical Progressive ideas lies through uniting conservatives and the old-school liberals around the things that they all agree on the problem is you know the the conservatives in America you know America is a very radical country there's a very radical country when we spoke to Ben Shapiro actually he made this point and I think he's absolutely right people there are pretty you know pretty intense about what they believe and so it makes them difficult makes it difficult for them to work with others where there's disagreement you know and the trans debate for example is a very good example of this where the conservatives many conservatives have taken the position the I think alienates a lot of people which is you know the libs are transing the kids and everything else follows from that and a lot of the old school liberals who also are concerned about gender ideology in schools the transitioning of children the medicalization of children all this stuff they're quite uncomfortable with some of that rhetoric and so what you see is a rather precarious temporary Alliance that's not really as strong as it could be and and some of the fishes that come from that um but America is a beautiful place it's a beautiful place I think I am really inspired by um the mindset there you know that there is no tall poppy syndrome in America you know if you say to somebody in Britain you know I want to build a great business or I want to create a massive YouTube channel or I want to be you know hugely successful in this or that there's a sort of like who do you think you are kind of look that you get in America it isn't like that at all it's like great go for it what can I do for you how can we work together and that's inspiring you know that is this for someone like me who always wanted to do great things and build things and employ people and create opportunities for others and make an impact in the world is it's fascinating it also has a shadow as anything does there are no Solutions only trade-offs uh but it's it's a wonderful place in many ways I I really when I'm in America I am it gives me like fuel for the rocket in in a way that no other country ever been to does you've um you've rightly said I think that um those who are not Progressive in inverted commas the term that progressives like to use about themselves they need to positively stand for something and we've been talking about this as well sometimes you get the impression that people are just interested in fighting a battle to win some points rather than build towards a more coherent Society where there are greater opportunities for freedom and human flourishing um and so I wonder in that context whether appeals to preserve free speech and to talk about freedom and liberty and so forth are enough no no no freedom of speech I've always said this freedom of speech is a defense of value it's a defensive value it's like please can I have a fair playing field for my ideas that's what that is right so it's not only important you're not saying it's unimportant it's incredibly important but but it's not something you can really unite around yeah because once you've got free speech what okay cool now we have a Level Playing Field for ideas what ideas do you believe in and that's where everyone falls out right so what we have to start thinking about is what is the positive vision of the future that we're offering people you've talked many times about why hope is so important right let's say all of us who believe free speech is important achieve our objective yep where's the Hope in that where's the hope that in and of itself just means we can now have a conversation or at least we're now allowed to speak now what what is it that you want to say that's the question I'm increasingly asking of people what is it that you want to say and I think this is where people start to have have to start thinking about what is it that we're offering people why should you be one of us other than the fact that you're not allowed to say what you want at work or at school or whatever okay cool we get that but once you are allowed to what is it that you want what is it that you believe in and there has to be a I think a sense of trying to work out what that is now for me uh I can chart one or two things that I think are going to be part of that uh the most important one and Jordan Peterson and I talked about this when he had me on his show I think it has to be first and foremost it has to be Invitational it has to be we have to tempt people into we have to say to them what is it that you want okay well really deep down we've talked about this already you want meaning and fulfillment what are the things that are going to give you that okay now let's look at that and then the answers come because part of it we talked about it already for many people there's going to be family for a lot of people even before you get there is it's gonna you know you have to talk about things like mental resilience is it good for you to think that you're a victim even if you are let's say you are a victim let's say you are a victim of Life you've experienced difficult things and you and I both have and so is everybody else by the way right is it good for you really important point we love to say I'm a victim but you've you've had it easy but it's often simply not true it's not true it's not true the vast majority of people you meet are actually if you talk to them and you listen to them you'll find out that everybody's experienced some things that were really difficult for them and by the way for some people growing up in a really wealthy privileged environment with parents who didn't care about them which often happens is just as traumatic as growing up in poverty people don't want to admit that but that is true right most people have experienced some kind of trauma or difficulty or challenge um now what is the right approach if you want meaning and fulfillment and purpose and happiness I don't believe being a victim is that especially if you're a victim especially if you've had a hard life this is why I'm so frustrated with this ideology because the worst thing you can teach people who are victims of life is to wallow in their victimhood we we have to give people a path to resilience and part of the path to resilience is telling them that that's the destination you want to get to you want to get to resilience everybody should be trying to get there subfamily resilience and then you have to you know discuss the the point that you and I have talked about almost endlessly which is which are the Societies in the world that actually offer you an opportunity to do those things to be successful to be free to be prosperous look around look around at the world it's Western societies it's the anglo-sphere and a portion of Europe okay why is that is it possible that that's something to do with their values okay well which of those values do we need to preserve and celebrate that's I think the conversation that we should be having and it's way bigger than with all possible respect and John Anderson and Constance people have to get around from different political perspectives and work out what it is that we can agree on that can offer people that meaning and purpose and then we can say to them this is what we believe in come and join the team now the last time we talked I was particularly Keen to get your views on on why Russians supported their president uh in the special military operation don't call it War otherwise you'll get arrested in Russia and put into prison for 10 years yeah you know why they supported him in that Spirit especially on Military operation as he calls it uh and your insights were very valuable and the conversation hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people tuned into that how do you see it how is your thinking about it evolved somebody said to me the other day I can't see an Exit Plan hmm how are you saying it well I've said from literally day one that the likely outcome and this there are a lot of people understandably in Ukraine who are not necessarily that happy about me saying it this way even though I've obviously been a big supporter of their cause uh and likewise there are lots of people in Russia who wouldn't be happy hearing this either look what Ukraine needs is to make sure this never happens again right because it's just Ukraine I suggest but of course of course but from a Ukrainian perspective particularly my view is what they need to do is you've got to remember this isn't 2022 wasn't the beginning of this process yeah this started in 2014 when Russia bit off chunks of Ukraine no repercussions came Ukraine wasn't given long-term Security in the way that it needed and so it happened again and if the war ends somehow without Ukraine having long-term security this will happen again in the future so the number one goal for Ukraine in my opinion there'll be people disagree but this is my opinion and I've said this from the beginning is not actually to preserve every tiny bit of land that isn't the end goal in my opinion a much better outcome for Ukraine would be long-term security there are only two ways to do that nature membership or un peacekeeping force on the border I don't see U.N peacekeepers there personally I mean may happen but unlikely so that means one thing one thing only Ukraine needs NATO membership now on the other hand what do you have to do to get there with minimum casualties because Ukraine is losing a lot of its people and a lot of its economic base is being destroyed even though they are fighting extremely well and courageously and I have huge admiration for them uh the the solution would be in my view likely that Russia gets to keep Crimea and pieces of the Don Bass NATO accept Ukraine and this essentially ends that standoff because Russia is not going to invade NATO and Ukraine becomes NATO so that's the end goal obviously Putin isn't going to be happy with Ukraine joining NATO given that the very reason he claims to have started this war is to prevent Ukraine becoming uh a hostile NATO force on its border uh but if ukrainians can can continue to give Russia a bloody noise which is what I've said from the beginning that will be in my opinion the most likely outcome uh as for where we are now we're sitting here on the 9th of May uh Victory Day as as we call it in Russia and Ukraine um the ukrainians are about to mount a counter-offensive that counter-offensive no one knows the outcome of how that will go what has happened so far is Russia has lost a huge number of men uh in wounded and killed in this war so is Ukraine probably not as many uh and this has been a serious blow to Russia's military clearly and the reputation of its military as well and so in terms of the end goal I think we we have to wait and see how that how the how the counter-offensive plays out and where that takes us frankly it depends what happens and then the response from from both sides well that's a very valuable set of insights to round this out you're now dad you're obviously enjoying it immensely it gives you great drive to try and make sure he's got a secure future what's it prioritizing in your mind in terms of trying to ensure that he can enjoy a secure and good life look I think we talk a lot about societal issues and they are very important but the the more I go through this journey of my life the more I realize how the personal is important so the number one goal for me is to be the best man that I can be I think that is the best guarantee of my son having a good life me being the best husband the best father in terms of you know to the extent that I am a public figure being the best version of that that I can be to try and bring people over to let go of my natural tendency to enjoy irritating people and taking the person whatever look these are part of life but I'm trying to be more responsible I hope I am being more responsible with the way that I communicate so for me first and foremost you have to start the change within yourself and then in terms of society look I I stand for the things that I've always stood for you know I believe the the West is great I believe it it's worth preserving I believe that we are in a good place still but we are moving in the wrong direction we are moving in the wrong direction and uh you know maybe my son is is you know he's come along at a time when he'll have a good life still but you know is Western civilization in a terminal decline I mean it remains to be seen and it also depends on what people do I mean there there is um there is always the hope that we can change the direction of travel um whether that's accurate or not I think remains to be seen so look the thing I've realized more than anything is I've let go of the attachment to you know societal outcomes because I know that I can't change them I can't I can do my best I can shape no point not not one percent of the conversation that happens in this area and I'm I'm doing my best but it that's really all that anyone can do isn't it I mean maybe maybe you can look you you were Deputy Prime Minister of a country so you've had more impact directly in that way but even so I don't imagine you feel like you you were able to you know revolutionize Australia in in the image that John Anderson would want it to be or to change Western Society we can't we're just we're we're small people all of us trying to do our best and I think for my son the best thing I can be is just a good example if if I can try to be that well I think that's a noble aspiration and I'd only say and that's all that it is an aspiration no I was going to say don't sell yourself short uh I think you do great things and thank you very much for your time indeed thanks for having me back [Music] thank you

Channel: John Anderson

Views: 62,754

Keywords: John Anderson, John Anderson Conversation, Interview, John Anderson Interview, Policy debate, public policy, public debate, John Anderson Direct, Direct, Conversations

Id: OpJVBVYgeMA

Length: 56min 24sec (3384 seconds)

Published: Thu Jun 01 2023