Father Spitzer’s Universe - 2018-10-24 - Exorcisms Of Jesus

[Music] [Music] hello and welcome once again to father Spitzer's universe you found us located at the intersection of faith and reason I'm Doug Keck your host located here at our EWTN studios the mothership where it all began an 81 with Irondale Alabama where Mother Angelica started on Mother Angelica way and don't forget this show requires your feedback and input send us your emails check us out on Facebook and send us a tweet on Twitter and for all things father Spitzer there's two places the majus intercom website and now you can also check out for even more information on the credible catholic comm site and of course that's what we've been going through credible Catholic calm and just wanted to mention that we've been covering the Synod on you through our EWTN news department and ongoing coverage can be seen right here on EWTN ending on Saturday October 27th but you can look for that at 5 p.m. and 11 p.m. Eastern each night plus coverage coming from news nightly as well so that's all coming from Rome and the Synod and now we shall move to the west coast once again and rejoined by father Spitzer who will lead us in a prayer good to see you again father hate to see you too and I use that term loosely in the name of the Father of the Son and of the Holy Spirit amen Heavenly Father would give you thanks for the blessings and graces you give us particularly the grace to be with our good viewers and to be able to to enter into a good dialogue with them we ask you Lord to send your Holy Spirit down upon us to guide us inspire us and protect us so that everything we do will be brought to for which in your will according to your kingdom and your church and and and the edification of your people through Jesus Christ our Lord amen and Mary seat of wisdom pray for us in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit amen amen and here we are in October coming up on Halloween in a couple of weeks here actually a week and a half and we're gonna be talking alternately without exorcisms but these are the exorcisms of Jesus and the ones he performed and we'll talk about those in a moment first let's get to some questions from prior programs for you father Spitzer you ready I'm ready okay dear father Spitzer and Doug Wow father Spitzer's universe makes me want to go to heaven now I would like to know what age will we be in our glorified bodies when we are raised from the dead will it be the same age as when we die is there an ideal age this is sincerely Betty so sometimes people have these questions and say oh I look like what will it be like if you know when I was younger and healthy and I died and I was disabled and will it be something new and sometimes you know when people talk about who they see in visions and things like that so what say you sure yeah Betty um basically of course Jesus did not talk about that but boy there is a lot of research on it that comes from near-death experiences the vast vast vast majority of people who have seen their deceased relatives and friends who have come to meet them you know when they pass into this sort of a beautiful domain they all look like they are in their sort of late twenties they you know according to one child who you know was asked that very question who had a near-death experience II you know he had picked out you know he said I meant you know my my grandfather they're in heaven and and so they said well it did he look like this and he goes no and that was you know the grandfather when he was an older man and so what did he look like this finally they had a picture of him when he was in the army as a young man sort of in his late 20s and he goes that's him you know and so basically you know that's that's not an uncommon occurrence so yeah it seems as if people look like they did in their in their late 20s and when they were sort of in the in the fullness of life there and of course they are transformed they are not just like a physical body they really have a definitely a spiritual quality to them but that definitely evidencing their corporeal form so that's the majority of the near-death experience cases and you know one kid actually said yeah in heaven everybody's young you know and and so and he meant you know gracefully you know in the late 20s I think not childhood so I guess we're a little past our prime there based upon that okay but something to look forward to as they say right that's right here's another question for us a little bit different a month after I started praying the rosary I would be attacked and distracted by a different thing it was so odd that I decided to stop praying and sure enough the attack stopped when I returned to the Rosary more horrible attacks would come out of nowhere I've stopped praying the rosary until I can decide what to do what should I do this is Kevin I guess obviously Kevin doesn't indicate exactly what mode these attacks have presented themselves but what about that somebody's praying and then feeling attacked yep I think every time Kevin you start a whole new spiritual regime you know let's say praying the rosary or some resolve to do something better or to work on you know a specific virtue maybe patience or whatever it might be you know every single time you do this just expect you are going to be attacked just expect obstacles we'll come to you some of them some of the attacks are going to be complete distractions I remember you know in my novitiate for example you know I mean the devil that didn't come to me you know like trying to scare me the devil didn't try and come to me you know with you know even overt you know temptations towards something you know powerful or sexual or something like that now he played to my sort of curiosity and my intellectual interest so I mean I'll be sitting there and thinking to myself I wonder how boilers really work I mean how do those tubes go in there and I just gotta figure it out right now now at the time I'm starting this increased prayer regime that's part of my novitiate experience I gotta figure this out okay so the tubes go in over here etc etc so I mean this happens all the time the the first of all the evil spirit figures out just where are you most vulnerable and wherever it is he knows and of course if you have the audacity and of course I'm putting this in scare quotes if you have the audacity to try and improve in your prayer life your spiritual life you want to get you know even more committed to the Lord I can assure you predict you will be attacked right at your most vulnerable point what is the way to go st. Ignatius of Loyola says increase the prayer regime so when you get attacked just say okay you know because I'm being attacked I'm gonna add after I finish my rosary another five Hail Marys to it so you know in the Jesuits we call it odd you're a Contra act against the attack so so basically do what you're doing you know who is attacking you you know why he's attacking you he wants to present an obstacle to stop you mm-hmm and just put yourself in the Lord's hands don't worry you are protected say the st. Michael prayer and after you say the st. Michael prayer ad and it can be a very short st. Michael prayer like Saint Michael protect me from this spirit and then add another five Hail Marys just for the fun of it you know as that for the fun of it for the spite of it you know to spite him that is to say to to to to continue on your way don't worry you will pass through that phase you know this happens to people who are for example they decide to become converts right they they they're passing by a church one day they feel called into that church and they go you know this is the first time I've been at peace in a long long time I'm gonna start going to church don't worry you can be sure that you will have nightmares or some other thing which will get you all discombobulated right man maybe I better not go through with this thing I'm having nightmares play through it go through it motor through it because God will be on the other side but you have to have the will right to move through it and remember all these gospel readings that we've been having in the daily Mass all about vigilance right stick with it be vigilant keep to it and the nightmares are going to stop once you know the evil spirits cease he's not doing any good he's not going to persist in that he'll find another way to get you but I assure you he will find his ways and of course why does God allow the evil spirit to do that because we are free agents you know God's not gonna remove our freedom from us so he's gonna let people distract us he's gonna let the devil distract us he's going to let you know our own proclivities distract us we're gonna have to have that resilience we're gonna have to have that that real force of the will to want to just keep motoring through this it's gonna be tough but I assure you he'll drop it you're not going to get attacked in the same veins try it in the same thing just try to be deliberate about a rosary try to stay on track say your st. Michael prayer the long one the or the brief one whatever you want to do you know add up some Hail Marys to it to just you know Audrey contracted to act against the the attack and and surely I tell you they will stop he will find like I said other paths but you can motor through those two and and been there done that and everyone I know who has made progress in the spiritual life has had to go through it in addition to things like you were saying having a nightmare or something like that some people sometimes feel as if when they've committed to certain like things like that where they're you know they're going to join something and more of their prayer life they're gonna devote more time you could say adoration or do something else they think is a positive thing for their faith journey that sometimes it even seems like the mundane things start to happen you know they have car trouble or the the suddenly the bathroom doesn't work quite right you know issue comes up these little kind of nibbly things on the edges that just stir them there to kind of distract you well I was submitting my manuscript to Ignatius press a couple of weeks ago you know the first volume of that trilogy on called out of darkness contending with evil through the church virtue and prayer so you know you cannot believe the number of mundane things worldly kinds of problems that began to happen I mean computer problems I'm telling you I mean just you know we were transferring text into a single document you know and then I lost all the margins and everything I mean it was just like weird stuff was just going on I mean it was like you know and I just you know I told my assistant Joan I said you know work just motoring through this thing you know and she actually stayed extra time on Friday to just get this thing submitted because you know there were just so many bizarre things that were going on distracting obstacles but you're absolutely right Doug I mean you cannot believe you know how you know the various angles you know that'll come there and you know sometimes you're gonna do something apostolic I said maybe you're not necessarily trying to be more virtuous or trying to increase your prayer time or your adoration etc you know maybe you're just gonna do something apostolic like you're gonna be talking to somebody or you're gonna be you know working on a project that's that's going to help the kingdom don't worry you know you're gonna get the mundane you're gonna get the spiritual you're gonna get the nightmares you're gonna get you know these attacks which are you know over temptations sometimes or you get the tricky temptations to the deceitful temptations you know and and you know for those who are who have made some spiritual progress you know the main thing is is you know then the the temptations toward discouragement you know you're doing all these things but who do you think you are anyway right you know I mean God sees right through you you hypocrite you know so why do you even bother you know and of course you you know the whole thing is you know you know the Della's you know he's really good at it but after a while he got used to it you know you can figure out yeah this is this is the evil spirits gameplan you know I can figure this out and I can go right back to trusting in God and I'm going to just keep motoring on through and you know I'm not paying any attention if we have to put in some extra time on Friday or whatever we have to do to get this thing submitted we're going to do it and we're not letting these obstacles stand in the way even if we have to recorrect every single margin and a 350 page book you know we're gonna do it so I mean that's the main thing is just to have that force of the will and don't let yourself be talked into the reason you're being attacked is because you're doing something wrong right if you're praying the rosary you're not doing something wrong believe me this is an attack from the evil spirit who wants you to believe that you're doing something right and if you were anything towards you wouldn't bother you right exactly right exactly right they used to say the devil sleeps in Hollywood let me ask you a question - I know you're not that far away from there though but the idea also you know we have a guardian angel so it certainly in a situation like this maybe we can call on them for help now since we have an angel to sign to us do do we also have a demon assigned to us like we used to see in the cartoons oh no I think I think that the that the evil spirit works in a much more flexible basis calling in the various kind of spirit that's required to be the ultimate distraction to you at a particular point in your life okay so yeah I don't think there's one assigned to you at all although there can be some that can kind of stay with you you know and and they do pop up again you know I don't want to talk about this you know in any detail but yeah there are some recurrent ones and you after a while you recognize them and you just can discount them very easily I know and just go right to your st. Michael prayer and and you're in great shape and believe me you know the you know the more you know you you increase in the in the spiritual life you know believe me that the stakes are higher for the for the evil spirit but mostly at that point you know he stops the scare tactics and he stops the overt temptations toward power lust tactics he goes much more to the I'm gonna find a way to get you to be so discouraged you'll never get up in the morning and yeah you know that's where I'll spend all of his time and he'll play to your conscience you know and and you will think of things that you did 30 years ago did I properly confess this you know and oh my gosh you know and where you'll hear some you know you know proclamation of oh you know it just you can just go backwards you know and if you've ever had a chance to read st. Ignatius his autobiography you know he went through a terrible time of scruples at Manresa and you know he began to figure out that here is the devil appearing like an angel of light that's a quotation from st. Paul and you know that the devil comes he looks like he's suggesting very pious and important things right that you should be paying attention to like all the sins of your past life well you know Ignatius had been to confession and then of course he'd get back to his cave there at Manresa and he think of 10 other things he didn't confess after he had you know made the best confession that he could and so he's back at you know the confession they takes another 10 things that he didn't confess you know and after a while he's getting suicidal he does this oh my gosh you know it's going so deep and I can't get it and finally you know I think he had a dominican confessor if I'm not mistaken and again once again the Jesuits are thankful to the Dominicans who finally said stop it you know I mean these scruples are not from God this is not about you progressing in the spiritual life it's clear that's what your intention is you've tried to make a good confession at least 20 times stop this is enough you've got to move beyond trust in God that he's forgiven you for all the sins of your past life you have you've got to move on from here and then just recognize whose voice is doing this to you so that's again you know and he was making great spiritual progress and so of course he puts that whole rule he has a set of rules for the discernment of spirits and the Spiritual Exercises and there's a whole rule devoted to how the devil works during what he calls the second week the second week is when a person is like Ignatius right he's not there yet but boy you know he is making progress in the spiritual life leaps and bounds and he's got enormous potential to be on God's side and apostolic effectiveness and so the devil has got to stop him he can't stop him overtly so he can't stop him by just giving him nightmares so he's going after him by you know coming to him with very pious resolutions and you know you're gonna deal with all seven deadly sins and you're gonna do it today you know and otherwise God doesn't like you anymore you know and of course your nature is going but I can you know I mean these things are still popping into my head you know what am I gonna do you know and of course again sounds pious sounds good but st. Ignatius says all you have to do is test the spirits as st. Paul tells us in other words if after you have had this pious resolution you find yourself with a net decrease in trust in God hope in your salvation and the ability to love you know as defined by 1 Corinthians 13 like you know something's wrong you've gone into discouragement you're on the brink of incipient despair stop it recalculate what you were thinking about in terms of this pious resolution this good resolution it may have sounded good but we always have to bear in mind what GK Chesterton said every heresy is merely an exaggeration of the truth right and the evil spirit comes and he takes a truth he exaggerates it to the hilt until he's got you bashed over the head you know God is an ogre you're never going to be worthy you may as well give up now on the only friend you've got once you hear that kind of voice going on your basic thing is you've got to readjust you and if you can't readjust by yourself you've got to talk to a spiritual director or a priest who has good experience in the spiritual life who can basically give you some advice you know on how to turn that around in your Leslie if you hear that voice late at night LaVon to number three hear something a little bit different but in the same vein dealing with October what are your thoughts about concerning Catholics celebrating Dia de los Muertos which I think is the Day of the Dead I've enjoyed this annual event at my parish for many years we were invited to bring photos of deceased loved ones rosaries candles flowers handcrafted sugar skulls etc I also take these items to our beloved sons resting place thank you and God bless is Elaine from Oregon so something Elaine I would just say two things you know if you're doing this in your parish as a parish event and the priest is kind of guiding this to its proper conclusion then you know which is the resurrection not the celebration of death right or not you know if if you're really thinking about the resurrection I would probably say it's okay but you better do it you know ask your priest to call it not the celebration of the Day of the Dead but rather that the day of resurrection and and that would would be a much better reality a Christian reality the problem was celebrating the Day of the Dead as it's often times in folklore and you know just in a non church setting it is a celebration of death itself it involves also these sort of you know you know spirits of the dead who many of whom are malevolent you know and and you know and if you're you know talking about these kinds of malevolent spirits of the Dead and having anything to do with them it's horrible stay away from that whole you know arena completely and and frankly I have to be honest Tulane you know it can drift over into that even if you're doing it at a parish it's really risky business because you don't want any drift over you know with you know consorting with malevolent spirits or celebrating kind of you know skeletons and things of this nature that that that you know are kind of you know sort of making a spiritual thing out of morbidity you know so you have to be really really careful about it and and my thought is I I just soon stay away from it because there's just too much of a possibility that it could have some drift but if you're in a church right and you're doing something in a church right and it has a distinctive resurrection component to it and the priest gives some sort of a you know indication at the beginning of the mass you should not get into these more secular celebrations of the Day of the Dead right because those can be very very evil indeed then I you know I guess it's safe you know I mean if you're out but you come out of a culture where it is understood properly in relation to the church in the sense of kind of being like a membra now family except like a little like old Saints day or certainly All Hallows day a sense of thinking of the souls of our soul Souls days that people have passed on in that way I'm sorry no that's the proper way when you get into like st. death or things like that yes when I think you really have a problem with it here's another question that has a little bit there is no saint death right exactly the same death is is you know becomes you know the expediter of curses I don't you know and that that's a terrible thing and it's a very malevolent also excuse me I didn't mean to interrupt no but that's exactly where you said things could slide easily if you're not careful yeah okay here's another question after reading an exorcist explains the demonic it occurred to me that the presence of humor employs intelligence and that the devil is very intelligent I didn't know he was that funny but does the devil use humor as bait that to capture souls with dark humor as it were something along the lines of sacrilege also if someone goes to hell can they tempt others here on earth to do evil and this is Chris Chris the answer is yes and yes the the first thing is yes the devil does use humor and he can use that humor to again do what I call a slide so essentially a you know there's nothing wrong with humor right humor is wonderful I mean Doug and I laugh we're telling jokes all the time you know it's a perfect thing humor is a good thing it comes from God it's wonderful but of course the devil not only can quote scripture he can use humor but he's going to use that humor he's going to pull it as far as he can into darker humor or you know even into crude humor you know he's believed me even evil humor the humor that that you know where we start laughing at people you know who you know have a you know difficulty its etc you know and so all of a sudden you know you can start justifying and this always his tactic right he start justifying you know this darker humor this destructive humor this undermining humor this evil humor this crude humor you start just ads alright everybody does it right and and of course once you start doing that you start getting to lower humor and lower humor and eventually you wind up being extremely depressed and once you get into that state of depression or despair right you know you know almost a really like a malaise a deep malaise you've been had you know I mean you basically allowed yourself to get talked into a very very dark humor indeed and and you know at one time you know I was reading this book called a confederacy of dunces and as but there is a lot of dark humor in that book but I didn't kind of get it at first it was so hilarious you know and you know he's making fun of everybody and everything and every institution and it's you know you're just laughing and laughing and laughing and and you know he's poking fun at stuff that I would like to have fun poked at to so I'm laughing at this thing and kind of being dragged along and I get to about halfway through the book and I'm beginning to think why am I so down and depressed and you know so short with everybody and so forth and so on it was that book you know what's funny on the outside but it was literally an act of despair on the inside and I found out later that the author had committed suicide and and and you know and that you know I was just thinking to myself oh my gosh you know we shouldn't toy around you know even if we the funniest people in the world right and we just have that capacity you shouldn't toying around with getting too dark getting too crude getting too you know even cynical I mean cynicism is so funny sometimes you know but it's it you you know after a while though you'll experience the depression you'll experience that it's undermining your values and it's undermining your innocence and you know you say well I'm not innocent anymore I've I've been around the block 18 times I've seen everything that there is to see fine but you can still be innocent you can still say Mary I want to be like you and with you and and and you know a heavenly father in Lord Jesus I want to be like you and with you yeah I want to be just like you in in mentality and and let them call me naive or let them call me whatever they want to clone yes of course I can banter around and and play the the the cynical card you know but after a while you know I just tell people you know I don't wanna play the cynical card anymore you know and I just I just tell them that's I'm not going to it right because honestly when you see your innocence getting corrupted and I mean I'm talking about your second or third or fifth innocence right right when you see that getting undermined and corrupted you just got to say I don't like that and you know when that innocence gets corrupted that's when the depression ensues because that's when you get into the darkness and that's where the evil spirit wants you right but he's going to tell you every step of the way it's all in a sense this whole MacNeil is that guy oh yeah the way so much in the world today where nothing really matters at the end of the day if you tear everything down what are you left with right so yeah exactly okay menial ism and tell you it's just innocent you know so we're gonna humor we're gonna take a break maybe we'll get some good humor during the break and we'll be back with with father Spitzer of course as we return here on father Spitzer's universe much more haven't going to be talking about the exorcisms of Jesus something very interesting you'll want to stay with us we'll be back momentarily [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] the exorcisms of Jesus that's what going to be talking about in this part of the program as we return with father Spitzer out on the west coast and before we transition over to quick things one the end of the last question had to do with what you I think you might have answered it in the beginning can someone if they're in hell can that person in hell tempt somebody here on earth to do evil yeah it seems that that may well be a possibility and you know I again I don't i Jesus does not specify and neither does the doctrine of the Catholic Church specify one way or another however in some exorcisms that have been done and and that are you know a duly document and it seems as if some departed human souls were actually involved in a demonic presence you know and and named themselves now of course you can't trust that because the first thing the devil does is lie that's his always his default Drive so I mean even though someone should identify as as somebody who is deceased like a Hitler or something of that nature right and just say you know I'm this guy you know you still have to doubt it because it's coming out of the mouth of someone who is in in essence evil however part of what the Exorcist must do is get the name of the demon and if the Exorcist is convinced that this is the name of the demon then there seems to be some evidence that human souls could be involved in some kind of demonic you know temptation of some sort or even overt attack you know on this earth including a haunting of sorts a persistent haunting you know that that could indicate these things so I mean I malevolent hunting is what I'm talking about I'm not talking about a friendly haunting or a neutral hunting I'm talking about dark evil hunting cruel hunting okay and that kind of a thing if you know there seems to be some evidence there but like I said with every single time the devil announces himself you always have to suppose first he's lying and then you know see if you can get some way to get to the truth like for example you know when the Exorcist asked for the demon to name himself so yeah I would say the answer is yes right mixes in truth with lies probably yeah he does he does had one more question before we talked about that and this is like a two-part question I'm gonna break it up because I want to make sure we deal with these separately the first one first part is in reference to a question from a couple of weeks ago back about Ouija boards is it okay for Catholic Christians to meditate and practice Tai Chi or yoga that's the first part yeah I mean once again it's like the question about the Day of the Dead and you know in itself you know Taiji you know or or yoga you know as a physical exercise or a centering exercise there is nothing wrong with it however remember they can also have a spiritual component to it so you know that now if that spirituality that might be behind the Tai Chi or the yoga is is a centering spirituality which is changing your view of God to to something which is non personal a non personal force for example if you're getting that if you're using that spirituality and and be coming up with this notion of God or this notion of the spiritual world as non personal or even worse as non good or evil so it it's ethically neutral then I would say stop it the spiritual world is not new ethical ii neutral there's good ones and bad ones yes there can be ghosts who are sort of like you know in some sort of you know transition mode okay but I mean by and large there's good and bad spirits and also the spirits are personal that they're not forces they're not the force be with you you know they they are very personal and and and and and so that the main thing is is I would avoid any of that spirituality that goes with the Taiji or goes with martial arts or goes with yoga that D personalizes or de-emphasizes or demoralize as the the transcendent world the spiritual world I it it's just not true right and and I think it really can lead to a distancing of yourself from the true God and a distancing of yourself from a true ethical path towards salvation but yeah if you want to do like exercise any of these things that I'll do with if you ever got a Catholic who's got a good foundation and and true discernment you can kind of deal with these things in the world that's right and you know just say I prefer not to have the spiritual component right I just want to do exercises in the morning right or I prefer not to have the spiritual component I just want to do yoga exercise right okay you know I mean just just separate out the spirit right here's the second part of this question can we use as I guess is Catholic Christians can we use alternative healing therapies like hypnosis and this was John's question altogether yes yeah you can use alternative therapies you know for example if you want to use an Eastern acupuncturist for example there's there's no problem with that again there's not per se a spirituality that goes along with that then the same thing with what was your examine hypnosis is what they were all hypnosis now hypnosis you have to be a little bit careful of because remember when you move into a trance-like state or a hypnotic state right you can do that for the sake of you know for example pain control you could also do it for the healing of memories but remember you are moving into what's called the unconscious or subconscious mind when you're in a trance-like or hypnotic state and so your irrationality is out of the picture and so you have to be very careful because of course when you're just in a purely unconscious state and some people can really be in a suspended hypnotic state for a period of time until you know I have it no hypnotist you know snaps them out of it right you know that part you could do something really that you're not rationally cognizant of for which it would be terribly embarrassed you know you know or even worse you know the evil spirit you know it cannot take over your rational voluntary spirit hmm but boy can he get in the middle of your unconscious mind and you know and and and manipulate you know that the symbols in your unconscious and so you have to be extremely careful there too so if you're doing this what you you if you're going to use hypnotherapy for example for pain control or for you know a healing of a memory or something of that nature you want to know who your therapist is and you got to make sure that that person is on the straight and narrow and even is sympathetic to Christianity you know and also you want to make sure you know that that person you know if any kind of adverse reaction starts to happen will immediately pull you out of that hypnotic state etc etc so be careful with hypnosis you know other alternative therapies like acupuncture you know or you want to take an Eastern herb or whatever I don't see any particular harm in fact I know a lot of people actually for whom acupuncture did some some good that Western medicine I you know just couldn't do it and in one case it you know a little child was able to actually who wasn't able to walk you know through some you know long-term acupuncture was it was able to do so you know about to a certain extent but any case so I think that's okay right right as long as you take it for what it is and not spiritual does it per se okay let's talk about what we're going to be talking about incredible Catholic we kind of moved out of the the evidence of the history of divinity of Jesus Christ and getting into the historicity of Jesus's exorcisms and healings now you say here exorcisms and healings may be viewed as two extremes on a single continuum in fact you say that exorcisms are a form of healing please explain yeah that's right so actually it's a spiritual healing rather than a physical healing but yes the the spiritual healing you know this would be in the case an exorcism occurs when there is a possession of a person so by a spirit and and you can distinguish these very easily from healing miracles in Jesus's and in the narratives of the New Testament right in exorcisms obviously you know these spirits have you know foreknowledge they know who Jesus is they know what's going to happen things of that nature in a physical healing there's nothing like that secondly you have in an exorcism right you have people not just you know falling and gashing themselves but they are cursing right and of course a person can have grand mal seizures and have all kinds of things that have physical you know and even sometimes you know psychological dispositions that may look like an exorcism but you know they don't have those components of you know on a heightened spiritual aware heightened for knowledge of the future you know a you know an extreme you know agitation against anything spiritual or holy right and things of that nature and of course you can you know see a complete change at an ongoing change of the personality type of this person it's not them who's doing the speaking right so you know even if you have a you know person who's blind from birth it helped me to see that they seem normal but instead you have a completely different voice you know who's saying what are you one of us you know Jesus of Nazareth have you come you know to to to to destroy us you know why are you here you know and they're they're referring to themselves as us and things of that nature you know when this starts happening you say you know that's not a physical healing this this is not the person speaking but the ordinary person does not have divine foreknowledge does not have you know heightened spiritual awareness of who Jesus is you know it doesn't have an agitation you know visa vie that the holiness of the spiritual life etc so they're easily distinguished and and the idea you know that somebody in the ancient world could not tell a grand mal seizure seizure or an epileptic fit from an exorcism and from a case of possession is ridiculous of course they could tell I mean you don't have to have you know a of all of Grey's Anatomy in order to know that a possession has all of these spiritual qualities and that a an epileptic attack doesn't have any of them you know so I mean you know ancient people were not stupid they had a very discerning capability and Jesus obviously dealt with both of these you know extremes on the continuum physical healings on the one hand and spiritual healings from evil spirits on the other hand so they were easily distinguished and Jesus was able to it's a different sort of formula you know that that Jesus uses he he doesn't for a physical healing even for a psychological problem Jesus would not be mumbling you know get out of the man right and he would not be saying you know you know be gone you know you know you know Satan and and so forth you know and and he would not be asking the person well what's your name you know obviously the question is not addressed to the the physical human being its addressed of the demon occupying the subconscious of that human being and so that the idea then is is you know it's easily distinguishable Jesus uses an exorcism formula to cast out the demon and of course even his his apostles know that the the difference and at one point they say well how come we weren't able to do this right and he said well this kind takes a lot of prayer and fasting so that it's a spiritual remedy you know and they of course have been given the Holy Spirit to heal and the Holy Spirit to exercise so they're bewildered why couldn't they just use that you know and of course they have to you know in some cases like in the case of Robbie Manheim that I described that that's behind the Exorcist story right this was the the st. Louis exorcism there with the that the ten Jesuits had performed it took 31 you know exorcisms finally to free Robbie of that spirit no you know there are things going on in that exorcism which are not have nothing to do with physical healing you know you know writing you know scratches on the surface writing hell or something on on the boys stomach you know you know objects you know moving across the room at full velocity the bed just jumping up and down the boy levitating you know two feet off the bed you know speaking in Latin and in Hebrew or Aramaic he came which he had never spoken before ancient languages etc you're even heard of for you know you begin to think you know something's going something non-physical going on here okay an ancient people could figure that out too well you know that's kind of like the the way we see we're very progressive and we really view whatever so much smarter than people in the past that we are very neighborly to learn and maybe in the realm of actual collection of knowledge that may be true but not necessarily always in wisdom you also you also talked about the fact that both of these actions result in the kingdom of God being actualized in the world why do you make that point yeah well with respect to the healings maybe we can talk about this more next week these are the physical miracles that cure somebody from a physical malady and Jesus still views that as as you know a way of God's compassion God's love you know breaking forth into the world but it really is a manifestation of his kingdom breaking forth into the world now with the exorcisms it's a slightly different way in which the kingdom is coming but the kingdom is still breaking into the world remember Jesus is for most project I mean he's got two projects and they're both equally important he's bringing the kingdom into the world and secondly he is defeating Satan so you know Jesus defeats Satan in five stages during his life and we can express the temptation in the desert that's where you know Jesus really defeats Satan had on the first time and and once that happens Jesus is now the one in power the Prince of Darkness is no longer in power in the world that's why when Jesus goes to the second stage and the second stage is when Jesus is you know basically you know doing these exorcisms already the demons know we're dead dead on arrival they're already saying what are you gonna do to us you're gonna destroy us so they know he's got power over them that has been established at the temptations when he established power over the devil by staying with his Heavenly Father and not submitting to the devil and once that power over the devil by Jesus is established he goes to second stage namely exercising and now his break is bringing the kingdom into the world by banishing Satan with each exorcism his power is getting weakened and the whole point is you say well that's just one guy there are lots of other people who are possessed but every single time one of these exorcism takes place the power of Satan himself in the world is weakened and so Jesus then goes to that second stage and he begins a prolific ministry of exorcisms which of course the Pharisees his major opponents as adversary's they have no response to it the only thing they can state they're not going to deny the exorcism because they're going on every day so of course the only thing they can say is well he's casting out demons by the power of Beelzebul by the Prince of demons to which Jesus laughs Adam and goes well the devil is casting out you know his own minions by his own power how can his kingdom last I mean this makes no sense whatsoever try again folks but of course the point that I'm trying to get to is nobody can deny that he had a prolific Ministry of exorcisms which were easily discernible as possessions and exorcisms of possessed people but by the characteristics of them because of course not even the Pharisees his major opponents ever challenged that they just called you know he's doing it by the power of Beelzebul and why would a Christian ever report that in the New Testament you know that that somebody had accused you of being the devil unless of course it were an accusation that that really was occurring then he moves to his third stage and the third stage is he gives his apostles the Holy Spirit to do what to cast out demons and to heal people to do both things now true that the Apostles can't you know when it comes down to you know a spirit that's truly satanic or close to Satan you know they're having difficulties but with respect to you know ordinary evil spirits they do have the power to exercise and it works and you know and he says don't be so happy that even the evil spirits that you have power over the evil spirits be happy or still that your names are inscribed not you know in in the kingdom of God but the fourth you know stage you know of the of the of Jesus's destruction of evil and destruction of Satan is his preaching about evil and of course we can go into that and he has a lot to say about how the devil works and you know what what is he doing and and and you know how a spirit can be cast out but then return once again you know when the everything is clean and swept if we're not vigilant you know in resisting him and so forth so all of that Jesus gives all these instructions but the fifth is the final and definitive blow to Satan and that's Jesus's passion and crucifixion and itself where he turns it into a complete self sacrificial gift of self namely an unconditional act of love for the world which he gives to the Father to just literally obliterate Satan and to obliterate evil and to obliterate even the logic of evil and when that happens all right even you know the evil spirit is so convinced of his own veracity he doesn't even know he's going to be defeated at the very moment he thinks he has his victory the ultimate irony right he thinks oh gosh you know I've got him now is you know his own disciples are going to abandon him one of them actually betrayed them and and and in the Jewish high priests and the Romans are going to commiserate and killing them great I win and of course it becomes a complete total gift of self an unconditional act of love which just outshines every act of darkness and evil in the world and he has definitively defeated at the moment he thinks he has his victory gotcha right now that's what Jesus is about that was his plan but the exorcisms themselves are a really important part of his plan both his exorcisms and the one that he empowers his disciples to do in there is next week before and we're getting you on with this topic we have to we're going to talk about the seven non-overlapping accounts specifically that's interesting parts of people can look forward to that and of course follow the spiritual if you give us your blessing on our way out the door absolutely bow your heads and pray for God's blessing and may the Lord of compassion of love of wisdom of goodness of purity may that Lord descend upon you through his spirit and embed itself into your heart ever more deeply so that as you move ever closer to him through your actions and your diligence you may see with ever greater clarity the goodness and the love for which you are destined in him and keep yourselves resolved straightforwardly on the path to the salvation that he has wrought for you in Christ Jesus his son in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit amen amen and thank you so much father Spitzer we shall see you next week as we continue part two dealing with exorcisms related to our Lord and don't forget coming up November 3rd in Jacksonville Florida it is EWTN family celebration ewtn.com forward slash family celebration find out all the information great speakers wonderful day for you and your family one-day event on that Saturday November 3rd it's actually just around the corner so check that out don't forget father Spitzer's resources books videos wonderful programs we've done over the years with father Spitz are all available EWTN are c-calm next time part 2 of exorcisms of Jesus and then we'll get into healing so there's some good stuff ahead as well I'm Doug Keck join us next time at the intersection of faith and reason father Spitzer and I will be there we hope to see you as well [Music] you

Channel: EWTN

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Length: 56min 23sec (3383 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 24 2018