♪ >> >> Doug: HELLO, I'M DOUG KECK YOUR HOST AND WELCOME TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" COMING LIVE TO YOU FROM THE MOTHERSHIP IN IRONDALE ALABAMA WHERE IT WAS ALL STARTED BY MOTHER ANGELICA. WE'RE GOING OUT TO FR. SPITZER MOMENTARILY AND DON'T FORGET, THIS SHOW IS ALL ABOUT YOUR QUESTIONS, AND EMAIL US HERE AT ewtn.com. POST YOUR QUESTIONS ON FACEBOOK AND YOU CAN SEND TWEETS TO AT TWITTER AS WELL. ASSOCIATION WE'LL GET YOU THE INFORMATION -- SO, WE'LL GET THE INFORMATION UP ON THE SCREEN A LITTLE LATER. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GOD AND AT EVIDENCE OF GOD, IF IT EXISTS WHY IS THERE SUFFERING. AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE, THE FOUND DRESS OF EWTN WAS SOMEBODY WHO SUFFERED QUITE A BIT IN HER LIFE. AND IT HAS HELPED PEOPLE OVER THE YEARS AND MOTHER ANGELICA'S ANSWER, NOT PROMISES. THE BOOK IS OUT IN NEW SOFT COFFER EDITION. STRAIGHTFORWARD SOLUTIONS TO LIFE-PUZZLING PROBLEMS. AND THE FOREWORD IS BY OUR OWN CHAPLAIN, FATHER MARY WOLFE. NOW, WE'RE HEADED OUT TO THE WEST COAST AND WELCOME TO FR. SPITZER, AMIDST HIS UNIVERSE AT OUR WEST COAST STUDIOS IN ORANGE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA. GOOD TO SEE YOU! >> Father: GREAT TO BE BACK AND THANK YOU, DOUG. >> Doug: YOU WERE AT THE NAPA INSTITUTE LAST WEEK AND WE AIRED A PREVIOUS SHOW. SO, TELL US WHAT THAT WAS ALL ABOUT. >> IT WAS TERRIFIC CONVENIENT TALKING ABOUT AUTHENTIC CATHOLICISM AND THE NEW EVANGELIZATION IN THE YEAR OF MERCY. AND WE HAD A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT SPEAKERS. CARDINAL DOLAN, ROBERT GEORGE FROM PRINCETON AND SNEED FROM NOTRE DAME WAS THERE. AND YOU KNOW, JUST A VARIETY OF TERRIFIC SPEAKERS ADDRESSING THESE TOPICS. TIM GRAY WAS DOING IT FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF SCRIPTURE AND CARDINAL DOLAN FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF THE CHURCH. AND CARTER AND SNEED DOING IT FROM THE POINT OF PUBLIC POLICY. IT WAS A VERY GREAT COLLECTION OF ABOUT 513 LEADERS IN EDUCATION, BUSINESS, POLITICS THAT WERE THERE. AND BEING ADDRESSED BY THE VERY FINE SPEAKERS WHICH BY THE WAY EWTN HAS TAPED EVERY ABOUT IT OF THIS. EVERY ABOUT IT OF THE GENERAL SESSIONS AND SOME OF THE WORKSHOPS AND BREAKOUTS WERE TAPED BY EWTN AND SO, SHOULD BE AIRED, I SUPPOSE, IN THE UPCOMING WEEKS. >> >> Doug: RIGHT, WE AIR IT AS PART OF OUR EWTN ON LOCATION SERIES AND JUST A GREAT PARTNERSHIP OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS. SOME OF OUR PEOPLE, MICHAEL WARSAW WAS OUT THERE, DAN BURKE FROM THE REGISTER WAS OUT THERE. AND IT'S JUST A GREAT GROUPING. IT'S SO GOOD FOR CATHOLICS WHO ARE LEADERS IN MANY PHASES OF THE CHURCH AND CERTAINLY LAY PEOPLE. THINK THAT'S A FOCUS TOO. TO GET TOGETHER AND BE REINFORCED ABOUT HOW THEY CAN HELP ONE ANOTHER TO DEFEND THE CHURCH CERTAINLY IN TODAY'S WORLD. >> Father: EXACTLY. EXACTLY. THAT'S WHO IT IS FOR. >> >> Doug: AND I WANTED TO MENTION BECAUSE I MUFFED IT UP JUST A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE EMAIL ADDRESS. LET'S PUT THAT UP ON THE SCREEN FOR PEOPLE TO SAY. spitzersuniverse@ewtn.com AND WE'VE GOT FACEBOOK AND TWITTER. YOU CAN GET GREAT INFORMATION AT FR. SPITZER'S WEB SITE, MAGIS CENTER, magiscenter.com. HE HAS A LOT OF GREAT MATERIAL THERE AND WE'RE GOING TO MOVE ON TO ONE OF OUR FIRST QUESTIONS HERE. AGAIN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE WHOLE IDEA OF BEING TESTED AND SUFFERING. HERE'S ONE FROM FACEBOOK. FATHER, IF GOLD IS TESTED BY FIRE, WOULDN'T IT MAKE SENSE THAT GOD WOULD PUT US TO THE TEST THROUGH OUR OWN TRIALS OF FIRE. AND THIS IS FROM A BEAUTIFUL NAME, NEVER SAW THIS BEFORE, BRENDALINA. SO, IT MAKES SENSE FOR US TO SUFFER, SHE'S TAKING THAT POSITION? >> Father: YEAH, THERE'S SOME SENSE IN IT. YEAH, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT. HOW DO WE DEVELOP VIRTUE EXCEPT OVER AGAIN THE POSSIBILITY OF SUFFERING. HOW DO WE LEARN TO BE COURAGEOUS FOR SOME NOBLE PURPOSE. WELL, IT'S OVER AND AGAINST THE POSSIBILITY OF SUFFERING, RIGHT? AND IF THERE WERE NO SUFFERING, YOU WOULD HAVE NO FEAR. IF YOU HAD NO FEAR, NO NEED FOR COURAGE AND IF YOU HAVE NO NEED FOR COURAGE, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD NEVER HAVE THAT VIRTUE IN YOU STILL LIVING AND DEFINE IT ACCORDINGLY. SO, THAT'S THE FIRST THING, YOU KNOW, TO THINK ABOUT. AND THE SECOND THING IS, YOU KNOW, THAT WHOLE IDEA OF SERVING PEOPLE OR BEING SERVED. THAT WHOLE IDEA, AM I GOING TO LIVE MY LIFE EGOCENTRICALLY OR AM I GOING TO LIVE IT OVER TO MAKING A POSITIVE DIFFERENCE TO SOMEBODY OR SOMETHING BEYOND MYSELF. SO, THAT WHOLE REALM OF SELF DEFINITION IS DONE OVER AND AGAINST THE POSSIBILITY OF SUFFERING. SO, THE IDEA IS WILL I EXPEND MYSELF, WILL I SACRIFICE MYSELF FOR SOME NOBLE PURPOSE. THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF LOVE. THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF COMPASSION. SAME THING, WILL I GIVE MYSELF OVER, YOU KNOW, ENCOURAGE FOR SOME NOBLE PURPOSE IF THERE ISN'T ANY SUFFERING, THERE REALLY ISN'T ANY INTRINSIC VIRTUE. NEVER ANY SACRIFICE, NEVER ANY STICK-TO-IT-IVENESS OR FORTITUDE OR COURAGE THAT NEEDS TO BE DISPLAYED TO GIVE UP SOME PART OF MYSELF FOR SOME MOBILE CAUSE. TO PLACE A CAUSE, SOME NOBLE THING, SOME VIRTUE ABOVE MYSELF THAT MAKES MYSELF WORTH LIVING. THAT REALLY TAKES SUFFERING. YOU ARE RIGHT. IN A CERTAIN SENSE, WE SHOULD EXPECT TRIALS, RIGHT? AND OF COURSE, GOD'S NOT GOING TO STEP IN FRONT AND TAKE ALL OF THE SUFFERING FROM US. IT'S LIKE ANY PARENT. THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO AND YOU KNOW, COULD THEIR CHILD GET A BAD GRADE, YES, LOSE IN A SPORTS CONTEST, YES, ALL OF THESE THINGS. YET, THE PARENT SENDS THEM OFF. WHY? BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THERE IS SOME LESSON TO BE LEARNED FROM THIS CHALLENGE. BUT IF YOU HAVE NO CHALLENGES -- BY THE WAY, YOU REALLY WOULDN'T HAVE ANY CHALLENGES IF THERE WERE NO POSSIBILITY OF SUFFERING. IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY CHALLENGES OUT THERE, IF GOD CREATED US IN A LITTLE PLEASURE BUBBLE WHERE WE JUST THINK OF THE NEXT OPIATE STIMULATION THAT WE CAN GET, WE WOULD BE HAPPY AND EUPHORIC BUT THERE WAS NEVER ANY CHALLENGE. NEVER ANYTHING TO BE OVERCOME, NO NOBLE PURPOSE TO BE SACRIFICED FOR. NO VIRTUE TO BE AIMED AT. IF THERE WERE ANY CHALLENGES THAT WERE THERE OR SACRIFICES OR EFFORTS THAT NEEDED TO BE MADE, RIGHT, THERE WOULD BE NO VIRTUE IN YOUR BEING. THERE WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY NO REAL PURPOSE. YOU WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE IN LIFE. HECK, GOD COULD HAVE DONE EVERYTHING FOR US. ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING FOR US, RIGHT? I MEAN, HE WOULD HAVE JUST SAID, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS THINK IT AND EFFORTLESSLY WOULD BECOME INTO BEING. GOD DIDN'T MAKE THE WORLD LIKE THAT. HE WANTED US TO PLAY A PART IN MAKING A WORLD A BETTER PLACE. HE WANTS US TO PLAY A PART IN ACTUALIZING THE KINGDOM ON THIS EARTH. AND IN PLAYING THAT PART AND ACTUALIZING IT, HE WANTED US TO SACRIFICE, TO MAKE IT WORTH SOMETHING TO US. THAT THE KINGDOM IS WORTHY ENOUGH OF A GOAL. WORTH THE SACRIFICE. THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO DETERMINE AT THE END OF THE DAY WHO YOU ARE, WHAT YOUR IDENTITY IS, WHAT YOUR PRINCIPLES AND VIRTUES ARE THAT ARE GOING TO BE INSTILLED IN YOUR BEING. AND ST. PAUL GIVES US ANOTHER REASON FOR TRIALS AS WELL. REMEMBER THAT 2 CORINTHIANS 12, WHERE PAUL IS TALKING ABOUT HIS THORN IN THE FLESH. REMEMBER, HE SAYS, I WAS GIVEN A THORN IN THE FLESH. AN ANGEL OF SATAN TO BEAT ME TO KEEP ME FROM GETTING PROUD. WHY? WHY? TO KEEP ME FROM GETTING PROUD. AND IN OTHER WORDS, HE IS LOOKING AT THIS PRIDE AS A REAL DARKNESS, SOMETHING TO BE FEARED, AS A DARKNESS THAT COULD DESTROY HIM. AND AS A DARKNESS THAT COULD SEPARATE HIM FROM THE GOD THAT NOT ONLY CREATED HIM AND WHOM HE LOVES, BUT OF COURSE, WHO IS HIS FUTURE AND HIS DESTINY, THAT HE COULD SOMEHOW THROUGH THIS PRIDE CHOOSE HIMSELF ABOVE GOD. CHOOSE HIMSELF ABOVE OTHERS. CHOOSE HIMSELF ABOVE LOVE. AND HE'S SO WORRIED ABOUT THIS DARKNESS, HE SAYS, NO, NO. I LIKE MY THORN IN THE FLESH. I ASKED GOD THREE TIMES TO TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME. AND THAT MEANS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. SO, THAT MEANS, I ASKED HIM THREE TIMES. BUT HE WOULDN'T TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME. WHY? BECAUSE HE KNEW IT WAS GOOD FOR ME. HE KNEW THAT IN MY WEAKNESS WOULD BE MY STRENGTH! IN MY WEAKNESS WOULD BE MY CALL, MY SUFFERING, RIGHT. IT WOULD BE MY CALL OUT OF WHAT I WOULD CALL, RIGHT, NOT JUST PRIDE AND THE DARKNESS OF NARCISSISM BUT ALSO A DEEPER DARKNESS OF EVEN SEPARATION FROM GOD. I DON'T HAVE TO LIVE OUT SUPERFICIAL MEANS JUST PLAIN OLE MONEY, POWER, REPUTATION OR ADMIRATION OR HONORS AS ST. IGNATIUS OF LOYAL WOULD CALL IT. I'M CALLED OUT OF SUPERFICIALITY OUT OF THE DARKNESS OF TORMENTING OTHERS IN ORDER TO AGGRANDIZE MYSELF. I'M CALLED OUT OF THE DARKNESS OVER CHOOSING MYSELF AND GOD IN THE KINGDOM. OKAY. A LITTLE SUFFERING. OKAY. HE PROBABLY HAD A GREAT DEAL OF SUFFERING AS I INDICATED ONCE IN A PROGRAM BEFORE. I THINK HE WAS GOING BLIND ACTUALLY. AND THINK THERE'S VERY, VERY GOOD EVIDENCE FOR THAT. >> BUT GOING BACK TO WHAT YOU SAID IN 2 CORINTHIANS, MY SUFFICIENT IS GOOD FOR YOU AND FOR THE SAKE OF POWER, I'M INTENT WITH INSULTS, BECAUSE WHEN I AM WEAK, THEN I AM STRONG. >> Father: STRONG IN JESUS CHRIST. >> >> Doug: EXACTLY. SO, DO YOU THINK ALONG WITH, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE THORN IN THE SIDE IN THE SENSE OF BEING, I GUESS THIS IS OUR, EVERYBODY HAS ONE THORN IN THEIR SIDE THAT'S UNIQUE TO US MAYBE BUT ALSO ONE THAT'S PROBABLY THE SAME AND THAT'S PRIDE. AND DO YOU THINK IN PARTICULAR SOMEONE LIKE PAUL HIMSELF, BASED ON HIS BACKGROUND WOULD HAVE BEEN THAT MUCH MORE OPEN TO BEING PRIDEFUL EITHER WAY? >> Father: OH, YEAH. I THINK FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS. FIRST OF ALL, PAUL IS REALLY TALENTED, RIGHT? HERE'S A GUY WHO HAS IT ALL. HE'S GOT AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF PHYSICAL ENERGY. HE'S EXTREMELY SMART. RIGHT? I MEAN, STUDY UNDER GAMIEL THAT'S THE HARVARD OF RABBINICAL SCHOOLS. AND SO, THE GUY WAS NOT A DUMMY. HE WAS A REALLY SMART GUY AND HE KNEW HE WAS A SMART GUY. HE HAD THE RHETORICAL GIFTS AND GET THEM GOING, HE HAS THE GIFT OF RHETORIC. AND HE'S AN INCREDIBLE WRITER. IF YOUR AUDIENCE HAS SAT DOWN AND READ THE LETTERS, IT'S ABSOLUTELY POWERFUL, LOVELY TO READ THIS. RHETORICAL FLOURISH, CONCEPTUAL AND STRONG ARGUMENT IN THE WRITINGS AND INCREDIBLE. ON TOP OF THIS, HE HAS THIS CHARISMA, ENERGY AND THIS VISION FOR BUILDING THE CHURCH. MINE, IF ANYBODY COULD HAVE THOUGHT, HEY, WHO IS THE MESSIAH AROUND THIS JOINT. OR HOW COULD THE CHURCH LIVE WITHOUT ME? YOU KNOW, HOW COULD GOD WORK WITHOUT ME? IF ANYTHING, IF ANYBODY COULD HAVE BEEN INCLINED OF THIS OPINION, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN HIM. AND I MEAN, IT COULD HAPPEN TO ANYBODY AND THE DEVIL WORKS OVERTIME ON THAT. AND YOU KNOW, PAUL TELLS US, HEY, I GOT A REAL BLESSING. I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ME BEING IN THE CENTER AND GOD IN THE PERIPHERY. I'M SO UTTERLY DEPENDENT ON PEOPLE, UTTERLY DEPENDENT ON HIM. AND THIS IS A GIFT FROM GOD, IN MY VIEW, THIS GOING BLIND IS A GIFT FROM GOD, COMES TO HIM AND ENABLES HIM TO BECOME HUMBLE, PUTTING HIS WHOLE LIFE IN THE ARMS OF JESUS. AND BECAUSE OF THAT, RIGHT, HE SAYS, OKAY. OKAY. THIS IS NOT A CURSE, THIS IS A BLESSING. AND IF PEOPLE HAVE THESE KIND OF SUFFERINGS, THE ONE THING YOU WANT TO LOOK AT, HEY, IS THERE SOME ELEMENT OF PRIDE THAT I NEED TO DEAL WITH. OR MAYBE ONE OF THE OTHER SEVEN DEADLY SINS. THORNS IN THE FLESH ARE GOOD FOR OTHER DEADLY SINS. ENVY, GREED, ANGER, AND OF COURSE, LUST, AND OF COURSE, SLOTH. THERE'S NOTHING LIKE A GOOD OLE THORN IN THE FLESH TO REALLY JUST GET US THINKING ABOUT LIFE AND THINKING ABOUT, IS THERE SOMETHING THAT I NEED TO DO TO HAVE A MORE MEANINGFUL LIFE IN THE LIGHT OF THIS THORN AND GET ME OUT OF THE SUPERFICIALITY INTO THE ARMS OF GOD. YOU KNOW, NOTHING LIKE A PERFECTLY GOOD THORN IN THE FLESH. AND YOU KNOW, I'M ALL FOR MEDS TO HELP YOU WHEN YOU NEED THEM. BUT I MYSELF KNOW THIS, I HAVE A GOOD EYE PROBLEM, THAT I THINK ST. PAUL HAD. AND I MUST SAY, WHAT A BLESSING IT HAS BEEN. NOT JUST FOR ONE DEADLY SINS BUT FOR MULTIPLE DEADLY SINS. AND IT'S REALLY, REALLY HELPED ME IN LIFE. AND I THINK THE PEOPLE AROUND ME KNOW, IT'S NOT REALLY ONLY KIND OF GIVEN ME AN AVENUE AWAY FROM THE DEADLY SINS BUT IT HAS MADE ME MORE HUMBLE HEARTED, POOR IN SPIRIT LIKE THE FIRST BEATITUDE, MORE GENTLE HEARTED, MEEK, LIKE THE THIRD BEATITUDE. AND IT'S HELPED ME IN MANY, MANY WAYS. AND THINK THAT ST. PAUL RECOGNIZED THE SAME THING. THERE USED TO BE AN OLD ECONOMIC EXPRESSION, NEVER WASTE A GOOD RECESSION. NEVER WASTE A MOMENT OF SUFFERING BECAUSE THERE'S ALWAYS THE POSSIBILITY FOR SACRIFICE. ALWAYS THE POSSIBILITY POSSIBILITY TO MEET A MOMENT TO GROW IN HUMILITY, COMPASSION, GENTLE HEARTEDNESS, AND ALWAYS THE POSSIBILITY TO TURN AWAY FROM THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS AND ALWAYS THE POSSIBILITY TO FIND OUR STRENGTH IN JESUS CHRIST. I HAVE RIGHT NOW, IN THE GALLEYS OF MY NEW BOOK, YOU KNOW, COMING FROM IGNATIUS PRESS, THE LIGHT SHINES ON IN THE DARKNESS CONTENDING WITH SUFFERING THROUGH FAITH. AND THAT BOOK SHOULD COME OUT IN A COUPLE MONTHS. AND AFTER WE SPEAK. >> >> Doug: I THOUGHT YOU COULD MULTITASK. MAYBE YOU ARE DOING THIS SIMULTANEOUS WHILE TALKING. AND I KNOW ANOTHER JESUIT, FATHER MITCH WHO MULTITASKS LIKE THAT, TOO. SO, I'M NOT ONE. BUT WE'RE HERE WITH "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" AND MANY, MANY MORE AHEAD FOR US. DON'T FORGET! THIS IS EWTN WHERE MOTHER ANGELICA STARTED IT ALL! STAY WITH US. ♪ ♪ >> >> Doug: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR STAYING WITH US. IN THE MIDST OF "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" AND IN THE INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON. WE GO RIGHT OUT TO THE WEST COAST STUDIOS AT CHRIST CATHEDRAL IN CALIFORNIA. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE IDEA OF GOD'S EXISTENCE AND QUESTIONS THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO DO WITH THE, THE NATURE OF SUFFERING AND WHY. HERE'S A QUESTION THAT CAME IN. FR. SPITZER, DID GOD CREATE SOME OF US WITH A VOCATION OF SUFFERING. THIS PERSON MUST BE CATHOLIC! SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE MY PERSON IS TO SUFFER FOR OTHERS. CAROLYN. SOMETIMES WE HEAR THEM SAY, LIKE A SUFFERING SOUL OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. IS THERE A VOCATION LIKE THAT? WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> Father: ABSOLUTELY. YEAH. THE WHOLE IDEA GOES BACK TO JESUS HIMSELF. IN ONE OF THE KEY AREAS OF SUFFERING THAT I DIDN'T BRING UP IN THE LAST SECTION OF THE SHOW WAS, YOU KNOW, THAT JESUS HIMSELF SAW ANOTHER HUGE REASON FOR SUFFERING AND THAT WAS SELF SACRIFICE FOR OTHERS. SELF SACRIFICE FOR THE CHURCH AND SELF SACRIFICE FOR THE GOOD OF THE WORLD AND THE KINGDOM. SO, ESSENTIALLY, THAT WHOLE IDEA OF SELF SACRIFICE AS LOVE, ESSENTIALLY THAT THE GIFT THAT IT COULD BE GIVEN BY THE FATHER. AND SELF SACRIFICE IS A GIFT, IT'S A GRACE POWERFUL GRACE THAT GOES OUTSIDE OF ITSELF. AND THAT GRACE THAT YOU CREATE THROUGH YOUR SELF SACRIFICE, WILLINGLY OFFERED TO THE FATHER, THAT GRACE GIVES IT TO WHOMEVER HE WISHES, COULD BE THE SOULS IN PURGATORY, COULD BE A PERSON THAT YOU KNOW, COULD BE A GROUP THAT YOU KNOW, COULD BE FOR THE WORLD, COULD BE FOR THE CHURCH IN THE WORLD AND ON AND ON. AND OF COURSE, ST. PAUL PICKS UP ON THIS IDEA, ABSOLUTELY IN THE IDEA TO THE LETTER OF THE COLOSSIANS. HE SAYS, I COUNT IT A PRIVILEGE THAT I CAN MAKE UP FOR WHAT IS LACKING IN THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST. HE DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING IS INTRINSICALLY LACKING IN THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST. HE MEANS, CHRIST DID IT ALL IN ORDER TO REDEEM MANKIND. WHAT HE MEANS, IT'S NOT A GOOD TRANSLATION OF THE GREEK. BUT IT MEANS, JESUS LEFT SOME ROOM, SOME SPACE FOR US TO PLAY A VITAL ROLE IN THE SALVATION. I'M GLAD I CAN SUFFERING SO THAT I CAN TOO OFFERING MY SUFFERING IN SELF SACRIFICE FOR THE GOOD OF THE CHURCH, THE BODY OF CHRIST, SAYS PAUL. SO, THE KEY IDEA IS, YES, YOU CAN ACTUALLY TAKE THOSE SUFFERINGS AND YOU CAN OFFER IT UP FOR A VARIETY OF THINGS LITERALLY AS JESUS DID, ST. PAUL DID, AND THIS WHOLE IDEA OF SUFFERING AS A VOCATION, GOES RIGHT TO THE DESERT FATHERS AND MANY OF THEM, DESERT FATHERS, SPEAK OF SUFFERING AS A VOCATION. THAT IS TO SAY, YOU TURN YOUR SUFFERING INTO A SELF-SACRIFICE THAT YOU WANT TO GIVE TO OTHERS. SO, YOU OFFER YOURSELF SACRIFICE TO THE FATHER THAT TURNS IT INTO A GIFT OF LOVE! IT TURNS IT INTO A GIFT OF SELF! A POWERFUL GRACE THAT THE FATHER CAN SHARE WITH WHOMEVER HE WISHES OR WHOMEVER YOU DESIGNATE. COULD BE ANYTHING LIKE THAT. AND OF COURSE, I DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU, NOT JUST THE CHURCH FATHERS, RIGHT, BUT THE WHOLE TRADITION OF THE RECLUSES AND THE HERMITS, RIGHT, GOES ALL THE WAY FROM JULIAN OF NORWICH WHO VERY MUCH OFFERED HER SUFFERINGS. AND LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF SAINTS. HUNDREDS. AND GO TO ST. THERESE OF LISEAUX AND GO TO THE EARLY PART OF THE 20TH CENTURY, YOU CAN SEE IN HER THE REMARKABLE APPRECIATION OF THE VOCATION OF SUFFERING WHERE SHE SAYS, HEY, I'VE GOT A SHORT LIFE, I HAVE A LIFE WHERE I AM SUFFERING ALL THE TIME. BUT THIS IS HER LITTLE WAY. AND YOU HAVE TO READ THE DIARIES OF ST. THERESE OF LISEAUX BECAUSE SHE'S ARTICULATES SO MUCH NOT ONLY IN HER LEAF AND FAITH BUT TURNS HER SUFFERING INTO THE POWER OF SAVING SINNERS. SHE'S SAYING WHO DO I WANT THIS TO GO TO? I WANT THIS TO GO TO SINNERS COMPLETELY UNREPENTANT AND SHE HAS SOME MINDS IN HER, ARCH CRIMINAL ENEMIES. AN SHE'S SAYING, USE THE GRACE. AND SHE DID TURN THE HEARTS OF SOME PEOPLE THROUGH GOD'S GIVING HER GRACES TO THOSE PEOPLE. AND SHE FELT VERY MUCH THAT WAS PART OF HER VOCATION. BUT HAVE YOU TO READ HER SPIRITUAL DIARY. BY THE WAY, HER WHOLE SPIRITUAL DIARY IS FREE ONLINE, TYPE IN HER NAME, ST. THERESE OF LISEAUX, DIARY ONLINE AND YOU CAN GET IT RIGHT THERE FREE OF CHARGE. IT'S JUST SOMETHING VERY EDIFYING TO READ. AND THERE WAS A BOOK CALLED ALL I CAN GIVE ABOUT A QUADRIPLEGIC, FLAT ON HIS BACK AND WRITING ABOUT THE SAME VOCATION TO SUFFERING. ONE OF YOUR VIEWERS, BY THE WAY, DOUG, ACTUALLY GAVE ME THAT BOOK. I HAD LENT IT TO SOMEBODY. LOST IT. AND I MENTIONED IT ON A PREVIOUS SHOW AND THEY GAVE ME A COPY OF IT! THAT'S ANOTHER BEAUTIFUL BOOK AS WELL. YES, YES, THERE'S HUGE PRECEDENCE FOR BEGINNING WITH JESUS, ST. PAUL AND THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH. IT'S A HUGE PART OF MEDIEVAL SPIRITUALITY AND VERY MUCH PART OF ST. THERESE OF LISEAUX. >> Doug: AND PEOPLE SAY EXACTLY, THAT'S THE PROBLEM, IT'S MEDIEVAL. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. THE CHURCH HAS GOT TO GET CAUGHT UP TO THE 21ST CENTURY. LET'S GO TO ANOTHER QUESTION THAT DOVETAILS RIGHT INTO THIS. FATHER, HOW DO YOU CONTINUE TO HOLD ON TO YOUR FAITH WHEN THE CULTURE TELLS YOU, YOU ARE WRONG OR IN THE MINORITY. AS A CONSEQUENCE, THE FAITHFUL OFTEN SUFFER IN LONELINESS. THANKS TO YOU BOTH. THAT'S ANN MARIE FROM COVENTRY, ENGLAND, ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE POND THERE. IT'S INTERESTING. THAT'S A DIFFERENT KIND OF SUFFERING. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ALL OF THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF SUFFERING. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU MENTIONED ON YOUR WEB SITE, ONE OF THE ROOT CAUSES OF THE DECLINE OF FAITH AMONGST YOUNG PEOPLE IS THE CONFLICT BETWEEN SUFFERING AND LOVE. THIS EFFECTS A LOT OF PEOPLE TODAY. >> Father: YES, AS I MIGHT BREAK IT DOWN INTO A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT CATEGORIES, SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S REQUIRED, FIRST OF ALL, I DO DEFEND MY FAITH RIGHT AWAY. AND WHEN PEOPLE CHALLENGE FAITH, YOU KNOW, MY FIRST REACTION IS TO SAY, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE HERE. WHAT'S THE CAUSE OF YOU'RE NOT BELIEVING IN GOD. IS IT BECAUSE YOU THINK THAT SCIENCE IS CONTRADICTING GOD? IF THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK, THEN YOU BETTER KNOW THAT 45% OF BENCH SCIENTISTS DO PROFESS A BELIEF IN GOD. AND THE REST ARE NOT JUST ATHEISTS BUT ANYTHING FROM AGNOSTICISM AND A MINORITY WHO ARE ATHEISTS. AND MORE OVER, IF YOU WANT TO SEE THE REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE FOR GOD, PLEASE GO TO MY WEB SITE, magiscenter.com AND LEAD ANYBODY TO MY WEB SITE, MAGIS CENTER. AND HAVE THEM LOOK AT THE FREE ARTICLES, FREE VIDEOS AND EVIDENCE OF GOD IN THE CONTEMPORARY PHYSICS. IT'S ENORMOUS. AND YOU CAN'T LET YOURSELF GET LOCKED IN AND SAY, LOOK. I DON'T UNDERSTAND ALL OF THIS EVIDENCE. HERE'S A LOOK AT THE SCHOLARLY PAPERS. AND HERE. GO TO THIS WEB SITE. YOU CAN GET ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT YOU WANT FOR EVIDENCE OF BEGINNING, THE EVIDENCE OF FINE TUNING IN THE INITIAL CONSTANT AND CAN BE OF OUR UNIVERSE, ET CETERA. DON'T LET IT GO BY. IF YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION, LEAD THEM TO A GOOD WEB SITE LIKE magiscenter.com. BUT IF YOU TRY TO GET A FIX ON WHAT'S MOVING THE PERSON TO CHALLENGE FAITH THAT'S CONFRONTING YOU. SOMETIMES IT IS PERSONAL SUFFERING IN THEIR LIVES. AND THERE, I THINK, I'VE WRITTEN THE NEW BOOK, BE OUT IN THE NEXT COUPLE LIGHTS, THE LIGHT SHINES ON THE DARKNESS, CONTENDING WITH SUFFERING THROUGH FAITH. IN THE BOOK, CHAPTER 7, I TALK ABOUT THE OPPORTUNITIES OF SUFFERING. I THINK THAT CHRISTIANS OUGHT TO XEROX THAT CHAPTER. >> Doug: WE'RE ALL ABOUT EVANGELIZATION HERE! >> Father: THAT'S RIGHT. WHO CARES ABOUT THE MONEY. SO, XEROX THE CHAPTER AND TAKE THEM THROUGH THE OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE I JUST THINK THAT SO MANY PEOPLE MISS SUFFERING AND WASTE TIME RESENTING SUFFERINGS INSTEAD OF SEIZING THE OPPORTUNITY AND THE GRACES THAT ARE FOUND IN SUFFERING. AS A CHRISTIAN, WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH THOSE THINGS OR WITH THEM. SO, AGAIN, THE QUESTION, WHY, WHY DO YOU THINK THIS WAY? IF IT'S NOT A SCIENCE DEAL, WELL, MAYBE IT'S A SUFFERING DEAL. MAYBE IT'S A THIRD DEAL. AND THE THIRD DEAL IS, WELL, YOU KNOW, RELIGION HAS CAUSED ALL OF THESE KINDS OF WARS AND LOOK, TODAY, WE SEE ISLAMIC TERRORISTS IN THE NAME OF RELIGION, SO FORTH AND SO ON. AGAIN, I THINK WE HAVE TO DO, POINT OUT IMMEDIATELY THE GOOD THINGS THAT RELIGION HAS DONE THROUGHOUT THE CENTURIES. WE'VE ALLOWED OURSELVES TO BE ADVERSELY CARICATURED. AND SOME FIGHT BACK BUT SOME OF US DON'T FIGHT BACK. WE NEED TO SAY, HEY, JUST A COTTON PICKIN MINUTE, HERE. YOU KNOW, BEFORE CHRISTIANITY, WHAT DID YOU HAVE IN THE ROMAN EMPIRE THAT WAS OF ANY WORTH IN TERMS OF PUBLIC WELFARE? NOTHING. IT WAS CHRISTIANITY THAT STARTED PUBLIC WELFARE AND NOW, SURPRISE, THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE LARGEST OF ALL PUBLIC WELFARE SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD. SO, WHERE WAS ROME, GOOD OLE ROME ON THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SCENE. WHY, THERE WAS NOTHING. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, AFTER CHRISTIANITY, THERE'S A HUGE PUBLIC EDUCATION, RIGHT BEYOND THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY THAT TURNS INTO THE LARGEST PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM IN THE WORLD FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY! HEY, WHERE WAS GOOD OLE ROME ON THE, WHAT WE CALL THE PUBLIC HEALTH SCENE AND HOSPITALS AND CARE FOR THE SICK. NOWHERE. NOWHERE. ESSENTIALLY, IT'S THE CHRISTIANS THAT GOT THE PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM GOING. NO SURPRISE THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, LARGEST INTERNATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD. HEY! WHERE WAS GOOD OLE ROME ON THE STRATIFICATION OF SLAVERY. THEY WERE IN THE WORST RUNGS OF EXISTENCE PRACTICALLY ENSLAVING 80% OF THE POPULATION. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? IT WAS CHRISTIANITY THAT BROKE IT DOWN! THEY BROKE IT DOWN BY EDUCATING THE SLAVES. CHRISTIANITY THAT BROKE IT DOWN BY BRINGING THE SLAVES INTO THE BUREAUCRACY. BRINGING THE SLAVES NOT JUST EDUCATION BURT PUBLIC WELFARE AND HEALTH. AND BY GIVING THEM STATUS, DESPITE WHAT THE EMPIRE WAS DOING TO CRUSH THEM. HEY, LET'S JUST TAKE A LOOK AT SOME GOOD THINGS ABOUT RELIGION HERE BEFORE WE GET PEGGED WITH THE CRUSADES AGAIN NOT TO BE PUTTING TOO FINE OF A POINT OF PASSION UPON, BUT WE HAVE TO CONFRONT THE MYTH. HONESTLY, WE HAVE BEEN ADVERSELY CARICATURED AND YOU KNOW, I JUST GOT TO SAY, THERE'S AN ARTICLE ON THE magiscenter.com THAT HAS ALL THIS STUFF IN IT, WHAT'S THE TEACHING OF JESUS, WHAT DID IT DO, WHAT DID THE CHURCH DO IN THE EARLY CENTURIES ALL THE WAY THROUGH TODAY. TAKE A LOOK AT THE ARTICLE. >> >> Doug: WHY DO YOU THINK, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, AND PROBABLY MOST OF THE AUDIENCE AGREES WITH YOU, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE YOU GET OUTSIDE OF THE SPHERE AND WHAT YOU END UP GETTING, PEOPLE HAVE AN IDEA OF THE ORIGINAL BLESSING KIND OF THING AS IF THE NATURAL WAY FOR PEOPLE TO ACT IS TO DO ALL OF THESE GOOD THING AND IT'S THE STRUCTURES THAT MAKE THEM DO THESE BAD THINGS. SO, IT'S INTRINSIC THINKS THAT YOU WOULD DO ALL THESE THINGS AS A SIGN OF CHRISTIANITY OR THEY SEE IT AS REALLY THE POST ENLIGHTENMENT PERIOD THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LIBERATED TO FIND THEIR TRUE SELVES. AND IT'S JUST INTRINSIC TO US TO DO THE RIGHT THING. WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT? >> Father: WELL, OF COURSE, THIS IS SO ROMANTIC IDEAL OF THE NATURAL MAN. AND RUSSO SAYING, HUMAN BEINGS ARE ROTTEN BEINGS TO THE CORE AND THE ONLY WAY YOU STOP THAT IS THROUGH INTRINSIC BOUNDARIES AND WHO BETTER TO DO IT THAN THE PRINCE, THE DESPOTIC PRINCE AND RULER TO COME DOWN WITH FORCE, TERROR AND MAKE PEOPLE DESPITE THEMSELVES DOING SOMEWHAT VIRTUOUS. SO, FACE FACTS. TWO DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE COIN. KEEPS GOING. CERTAIN PEOPLE LINE UP WITH ROUSSEAU AND SOME LINE UP WITH MACHIAVELLI AND SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, WE'VE FALLEN. MACHIAVELLI AND WE WENT FOR THE PRIDE. YOU KNOW, MY THOUGHT IS WE WENT FOR THE PRIDE AND THE NARCISSISM PROBABLY FIVE SECONDS AFTER WE WERE CREATED WITH FREE AGENCY. THE DEVIL GETS RIGHT INTO THE WORKS AND GOES, OH, YOU CAN BE GOD'S TOO! REALLY? WELL, LET ME HEAR A LITTLE BIT MORE AND THEN WE'RE OFF AND RUNNING. AND YOU KNOW, JUST COME INTO CONTACT WITH A 2-YEAR-OLD AND REALLY LET IT FLY. YOU ARE GOING TO SAY, HEY, WAIT A MINUTE. THIS DOESN'T SEEM TO ADD UP. AND OF COURSE, THE CHURCH ALWAYS HELD, EVEN AFTER THE FALL THAT HUMAN BEINGS WERE AT LEAST 51% GOOD. WE DIDN'T GO THE CALVINISTIC ROUTE OF THE COMPLETE FALL OF HUMAN BEINGS. NEVERTHELESS, THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT A. DARKNESS AND SIGNIFICANT NEED FOR REDEMPTION AND IF WE DON'T FIND A WAY TO GET THAT REDEMPTION BOTH THROUGH THE TEACHING AND I WOULD SAY THE TEACHING OF JESUS, RIGHT. AND THROUGH SOME FORM OF GRACE, WHAT I CALL THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKING THROUGH THE CHURCH, THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKING IN OUR HEARTS, IF WE DON'T HAVE THAT GRACE, IF WE DON'T HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT IF WE DON'T HAVE THE TEACHING, THEN I JUST THINK, AND OF COURSE, OUR OWN FREE WILL TO MUSTER, RIGHT? TO FOLLOW THIS REDEMPTIVE ACT, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO FOLLOW THE DARKNESS AND HOW DARK THE DARKNESS WILL BE. AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, I KNOW THIS ONLY SPEAKING FOR MYSELF. I JUST DON'T THINK I'M THE OLD ENLIGHTENED, INTRINSICALLY GOOD HUMAN BEING. I'M REALLY OF THE AUGUSTINIAN PHILOSOPHY. I LOOK AT A RURAL CENTER IN THE NEWSPAPER, SOMEBODY WHO HAS DONE IT. I AM THINKING, THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD GO I. I'M NOT UNDER ANY ILLUSIONS ABOUT MY INTRINSIC STATEHOOD. BECAUSE IT AIN'T THERE. AND IF SOMEBODY THINKS THAT. WOW. COULD BE A DELUSION RATHER THAN A REALITY. JUST SAYIN. >> >> Doug: RIGHT. AND IF YOU ARE NOT THERE YET, YOU ARE OPENING YOURSELF UP FOR IT COMING SOON. [LAUGHTER] >> Father: YOU'RE RIGHT! >> >> Doug: AND FATHER HAS A NEW BOOK COMING UP IN A COUPLE MONTHS. BUT HE HAS ONE ALREADY OUT, GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD. THIS IS FR. SPITZER, IGNATIUS PRESS. AND WE KNOW THAT BUT YET THERE'S SUFFERING. AND WE HAVE MORE QUESTIONS COMING UP RIGHT AFTER THIS BREAK. STAY WITH US. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: WELCOME BACK TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT HIS BOOKS AND HIS BOOKS ARE AVAILABLE THROUGH ewtnRC.com AND WE MENTION THIS, BECAUSE IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THE TOPIC, THIS IS THE BOOK TO CHECK OUT. FINDING TRUE HAPPINESS. GO TO OUR WEB SITE, ewtnRC.com. LET'S GET BACK TO FR. SPITZER. TALKING ABOUT SUFFERING. WE HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION WE WANT TO GO TO. OKAY THIS. IS AN INTERESTING ONE, THE PERSON IS TALKING ABOUT, IS IT POSSIBLE TO OFFER UP THE SUFFERING THAT WE HAD IN THE PAST, SAY, LET'S SAY, BEFORE WE CAME TO KNOW CHRIST THAT WE DIDN'T USE, SO TO SPEAK. I FEEL LIKE I'VE WASTED 40 YEARS. THANKS FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND MINISTRY. CONNIE. THAT'S INTERESTING, HOW ABOUT THAT? >> Father: YEAH, CONNIE, I'M IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT WITH THAT STATEMENT. I DO THINK WE CAN TAKE THOSE SUFFERINGS, AS IT WERE, YOU KNOW, LAID DORMANT IN THE PAST. IT REALLY IS OUR VOLUNTARY ACT OF THE WILL THAT MAKES THOSE THINGS BECOME EFFICACIOUS AND EVEN THOUGH WE DIDN'T KNOW TO DO IT AT THE TIME, YOU KNOW, THAT SUFFERING PRESENTED ITSELF, WE ABSOLUTELY CAN USE IT, YOU KNOW, FROM THE PAST TO APPLY TO THE FUTURE. IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE DIARIES OF ST. THERESE OF LISEAUX, IT'S CLEAR SHE DOES THAT HERSELF. SHE BECOMES VERY LUCID AS SUFFERING, AS A VOCATION, IN HER OWN LIFE. AND SHE BECOMES VERY LUCID HOW TO TAKE THE SUFFERINGS FROM THE PAST AND BRING THEM INTO THE PRESENT, INTO A GRACE IN THE PRESENT TO BE USED FOR THE GOOD OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD FOR A GOOD OF THE PEOPLE SHE KNOWS AND THE GOOD OF OTHERS NOW. YES. THAT'S NOT JUST ST. THERESE OF LISEAUX IT'S ALSO IN THE WRITINGS OF ST. AUGUSTINE AS WELL. AND I'M NOT SURE IF IT'S SEEN IN ST. THOMAS AQUINAS, I WOULD HAVE TO DO A LITTLE RESEARCH THERE. BUT YES, THERE'S PRECEDENT FOR IT IN THE CHURCH. I SAY, YES, IF THERE WAS, LIKE, 40 YEARS WHERE YOU DIDN'T OFFER IT UP, MY THOUGHT WOULD BE, OFFER IT UP TODAY! >> Doug: WHAT DO YOU GOT TO LOSE? >> Father: RIGHT. WHAT DO YOU GOT TO LOSE. LORD, TAKE IT ALL. I'M GIVING IT TO YOU. AND I WANT TO GIVE IT TO YOU NOW AS AN ACT OF LOVE TO BESTOW ON THE WORLD, HERE IT IS. >> Doug: VERY GOOD. AMEN. AND THAT'S THE CATHOLIC IDEA OF OFFERING IT UP. OKAY. MOVING AHEAD. NEXT UP FOR YOU, FATHER, WE HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION. THIS VIA EMAIL HAS COME INTO US. GOOD AFTERNOON, FATHER, I HAVE A LOVED ONE THAT SUFFERS FROM DRUG ADDICTION. HOW CAN FAMILY MEMBERS HELP THE RECOVERING ADDICT NOT TO FALL INTO DESPAIR. HOW CAN THIS SUFFERING BE OFFERED UP. THANK YOU. A VERY CONCERNED GRANDMOTHER. >> Father: YEAH, THE FIRST THING OF COURSE IS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S GROUPS AND I HAPPEN TO BE AN ADVOCATE OF 12-STEP PROGRAMS. SO, I'M GOING TO MENTION THAT THERE ARE 12-STEP PROGRAMS OUT THERE, ALCOHOLIC ANONYMOUS BUT THERE'S SPECIFIC ONES FOR DRUG ADDICTED. AND THE REASON I TALK ABOUT THEM, THEY DO GIVE A LOT OF SUPPORT. AND YOU CAN ACTUALLY GET DAILY SUPPORT IN THOSE GROUPS, HANG IN THERE. AND THERE ARE MANY OF THOSE GROUPS THAT ARE EXPLICITLY PRAYERFUL, EXPLICITLY RELIGIOUS AND ALLOWING GOD INTO THE PROCESS. BUT I WOULD SAY, THE FIRST THING THAT I WOULD DO IS MAKE SURE THEY ARE ENROLLED IN THAT 12-STEP PROGRAM. THE SECOND THING THAT I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SOME VERY FINE WAYS OF DEALING WITH DRUG ADDICTION THAT, YOU WANT TO KEEP AWARE OF RIGHT NOW THAT ARE JUST COMING OUT. THERE ARE SOME, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A PELLET BEING DEVELOPED THAT CAN BE INSERTED INTO THE ABDOMEN THAT CAN GIVE A ONE YEAR BREAK FROM THE CRAVINGS OF OPIATE ADDICTION. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SURE IF INSURANCE COVERS THESE THINGS OR NOT YET. BUT THESE ARE REAL IMPORTANT THINGS TO KNOW ABOUT BECAUSE IF YOU CAN GET A RELEASE FROM THE CRAVINGS OF, SAY, OPIATE ADDICTION, IT'S LIKE A WAVE IS GOING TO PASS OVER YOU, OVER YOUR WHOLE MIND, YOUR BRAIN. AND YOU ARE GOING TO FEEL A REAL FREEDOM FROM THOSE CRAVINGS, THAT THEY DON'T CONTROL YOU ANYMORE. SO, YOU WANT TO PURSUE SOME OF THESE OPTIONS. BUT THAT PELLET, I'M GOING TO GET NAME ON HERE, I THINK IT'S INADEXDRINE WHICH IS THE CHEMICAL IN THE PELLET. I'M OFF BY A LITTLE BIT ON THAT, BUT I CAN GIVE IT TO YOU IN AN EMAIL IF YOU WANT IT. BUT THE MAIN THING, SEEK OUT THOSE MEDICAL EXCLUSIONS -- SOLUTIONS THAT WILL GIVE THE ADVANTAGE TO YOUR FAMILY, SON, RELATIVE, FAMILY FRIEND, WHATEVER THERE. AND ALONG WITH A FAITH-FILLED GROUP ALONG WITH THAT. AND THEN, THE FAMILY SUPPORT, THAT CAN BE VERY MEANINGFUL. THE MAIN WAY, I THINK, IS TO BE SUPPORTIVE OF THAT PERSON. AND EVEN IF THEY HAVE FAILINGS AND EVEN MULTIPLE FAILINGS, TO GET THEM BACK ON TRACK, AND BACK ON A PHYSICAL PROTOCOL. THINK IT'S, LIKE, NADEXDRINE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. IT'S GETTING THEM BACK INTO THAT GROUP AGAIN, YOU KNOW, FORGIVE THEM AND GETTING THEM TO SUPPORT THEM. EVENTUALLY, I BELIEVE, WHAT WITH THOSE THREE FACTORS IN PLACE, FAMILY SUPPORT AND PRAYER, AND YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL PRAYER, THEY MAY NOT EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT, WHERE YOU OFFER YOUR SUFFERINGS UP FOR THAT POOR PERSON. THEN, WITH ALL OF THAT BEING SAID, YOU KNOW, IF THEY HAVE FAITH, AND THEY ARE GOING THROUGH THIS DRUG ADDICTION, THEY WOULD BE CRAZY NOT TO OFFER THIS SUFFERING UP FOR SOME GOOD, FOR THEMSELVES OR SOME GOOD FOR THE WORLD, SOME GOOD FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD BECAUSE BOY DRUG ADDICTION IS A REAL TERRIFIC KIND OF CHALLENGE AND SUFFERING AND CROSS AND ABSOLUTELY, THE LORD WOULD TAKE THAT AND USE THOSE THINGS. BUT THOSE WOULD BE THE WAYS THAT I WOULD TRY. AS A FAMILY MEMBER, SUPPORT ALL THREE. THE SOLUTION LIKE A PELLET, YOU KNOW, LIKE A SPIRITUAL 12-STEP SOLUTION AND THEN THE FAMILY SUPPORT A SOLUTION. >> Doug: NOTHING WRONG WITH USING MODERN SCIENCE AND THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE LEARNED TODAY TO HELP SOMEBODY OVERCOME SUFFERING F. YOU ARE SUFFERING, YOU CAN OFFER IT UP BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE'RE NOT ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO GO OUT AND SEEKING SUFFERING TO OFFER IT UP. DON'T WORRY, STAY WHERE YOU ARE, THERE'S PLENTY COMING YOUR WAY. AND NOW, I HAVE ANOTHER EMAIL. I SUFFER WITH PAIN CONSTANTLY AND I'M SURE THAT THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WATCHING EWTN THAT COULD MAKE THIS THEIR OWN EMAIL. AND I HAVE A HARD TIME WITH PEOPLE SAYING, IF YOU TRUST AND LOVE JESUS, HE WILL TAKE THE PAIN AWAY. I HAVE SUFFERED THIS FOR 60 YEARS. GOD BLESS YOU. YOUR SISTER IN CHRIST. NOW, THAT DOESN'T SOUND CATHOLIC. BUT IN THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH MAYBE, I DON'T KNOW. WHERE YOU HEAR THE HEALTH WEALTH AND GOSPEL APPROACH. WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT? >> Father: WELL, SISTER IN CHRIST, I WOULD JUST SAY, NUMBER ONE, DOUG HAS THE CORRECT ANGLE HERE. THE LORD IS NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO TAKE YOUR PAIN AWAY. SOMETIMES HE DOES. BUT I HAVE TO SAY NORMALLY, WHEN YOU DO HAVE THAT KIND OF PAIN, OUR FIRST SOLUTION, REMEMBER, GRACE BUILDS ON NATURE. SEEK A MEDICAL SOLUTION TO DEAL WITH THE PAIN. AND THERE ARE ADEQUATE PAIN PROTOCOLS FOR MOST KINDS OF PAIN. AND AS A CHRISTIAN, YOU SHOULD NOT HESITATE FOR A MOMENT TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THOSE SOLUTIONS. AND THERE ARE MANY WAYS IN WHICH THAT PAIN MEDICATION CAN BE ADMINISTERED. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE INGESTED THROUGH THE STOMACH. IT COULD COME THROUGH SOME SORT OF A PATCH ON THE SKIN, COULD COME UNDER THE TONGUE, IT COULD COME THROUGH SOME OTHER FORM WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT, FOR EXAMPLE, REGURGITATING OR VOMITING A PAIN MEDICATION THAT'S JUST TOO MUCH FOR YOU. SO, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF WAYS OF GETTING THE PAIN MEDICATION. AS A CHRISTIAN, YOU SHOULD ABSOLUTELY, YES, MAKE RECOURSE TO THEM. I DON'T THINK, IT'S THE OLD THING OF, THE FELLA WHO SAID, LORD, I PRAYED TO YOU A HUNDRED TIMES TO HELP ME WIN THE LOTTERY AND ALL THESE YEARS, NOTHING. AND OF COURSE, GOD COMES DOWN AND SAID, WELL, YOU SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT A LOTTERY TICKET. SO, THE POINT IS, HERE GOD GIVES US THROUGH MEDICAL SCIENCE, GIVING US VERY FINE PHYSICAL PAIN RELIEF MEDICATIONS AND FIRST THING, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THOSE. THE SECOND THING THAT YOU WANT TO DO IS INSTEAD OF JUST SAYING TO THE LORD, TAKE THE PAIN AWAY. LOOK FOR THE OPPORTUNITIES IN THAT SUFFERING. IF YOU WANT, SEND ME YOUR EMAIL AND I'LL SEND YOU CHAPTER 7 OF THIS BOOK, THE OPPORTUNITIES OF SUFFERING. AND YOU CAN START IT TWO MONTHS AHEAD OF TIME! THERE'S SO MANY GOOD OPPORTUNITIES TO BEGOTTEN FROM SUFFERING INCLUDING THAT BIG ONE THAT WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT, OF OFFERING IT UP FOR THE SALVATION OF OTHERS, OFFERING IT UP FOR THE SOULS IN PURGATORY AND OFFERING IT UP FOR THE RELATIVES AND FRIENDS WHO YOU KNOW NEED THAT GRACE. AND THAT COMES IN THE IMITATION OF JESUS HIMSELF. REMEMBER, JESUS DID ASK IN THE GARDEN OF GETHSEMANI FOR RELIEF FROM THE CROSS, RIGHT? HE DID SAY, FATHER, IF IT BE YOUR WILL, TAKE THIS CUP FROM ME. IN OTHER WORDS, THE CUP OF SUFFERING FROM ME. BUT IF NOT, THEN THY WILL BE DONE. SO, OF COURSE, AT THAT JUNCTURE, JESUS ACCEPTS THE PAIN. RIGHT? HE DOESN'T CONTINUE TO ASK THAT IT BE RELIEVED. HE ACCEPTS IT. HE OFFERS IT UP FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD AND FOR, OF COURSE, THE CHURCH THAT HE IS ABOUT TO START. AND FINALLY, JUST IN TERMS OF RELIEF FROM THE PAIN, YOU KNOW, AND USING THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT ARE IN THE SUFFERING, WHEN THAT PAIN COMES, REMEMBER, GROUP PRAYER IS ALWAYS A GOOD WAY OF DEALING, YOU KNOW, WITH PAIN. ESPECIALLY WHEN PAIN BECOMES ACUTE AND MAYBE THE MEDICATION CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PAIN. YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, I'M CATHOLIC, I LOVE THE ROSARY. THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THE ROSARY OR SAYING THE ROSARY WITH SOMEBODY ELSE THAT REALLY HELPS. NOT JUST TO DISTRACT ME FROM THE PAIN BUT TO CONTEND WITH THE PAIN IN A VERY HEALTHY WAY AND TO OFFER IT UP. SO, THESE WOULD BE SOME SOLUTIONS. I THINK YOU NEED ALL OF THOSE SOLUTIONS. >> Doug: LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION. MAYBE A LITTLE CRAZY BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE OFFERING UP SUFFERINGS FOR OTHERS, IN PURGATORY. CAN YOU OFFER UP YOUR OWN SUFFERING, EITHER IN A SENSE AS PART OF A REQUEST TO BE HEALED? OR CAN YOU BANK YOUR SUFFERING FOR THE FUTURE? >> Father: YEAH. >> Doug: IF YOU HAPPEN TO END UP IN PURGATORY? >> Father: WELL, YOU KNOW, I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT THAT FOR THE FUTURE. BUT I DO KNOW ONE THING, YEAH, YOU CAN ASK THE LORD TO APPLY THE VERY SAME THINGS TO YOURSELF AND TO YOUR OWN HEALING, ABSOLUTELY. AND OF COURSE, WE ASK THE SAINTS TO PRAY FOR US. AND WE ASK THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY TO PRAY FOR US. AND YOU KNOW, WE CAN ALSO PRAY FOR OURSELVES AND ASK THE LORD TO TAKE THAT SELF SACRIFICIAL GIFT AND IF IT BE HIS WILL, TO USE THAT ALSO IN OUR OWN HEALING AND OUR OWN RELIEF FROM PAIN. SO, NO. IT'S NOT THAT CRAZY. I'VE NOT THOUGHT ABOUT THAT IDEA, ABOUT THE FUTURE EXCEPT THAT IT'S IMPLICIT IN INDULGENCES. AND IF YOU MAKE A SACRIFICE NOW, THERE'S A WAY OF APPLYING THAT TO PURGATORY. WHAT I THINK IS A LITTLE SANER ABOUT THIS IS THAT YOU ARE VOLITIONALLY TAKING YOUR OWN SELF SACRIFICE, IF IT BE HIS WILL, THAT THIS COULD BE USED FOR YOUR OWN, FOR RELIEF OF AND HEALING OF, WHICH IS WHAT PURGATORY IS ABOUT, PURGATION, AND IT'S ABOUT HEALING IN THE NEXT LIFE. SO, YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY THINK ABOUT THAT. AND I WOULD HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE. TYPICALLY, CREATIVE DOUG KECK HAS COME UP WITH A NEW ONE! STUMP FR. SPITZER! >> Doug: I WAS CHALLENGED SO I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, LET ME COME UP WITH THIS. THE LORD GAVE ME AN INSIGHT. YOU ARE NEVER KNOW, WITH ALL OF THE QUESTIONS THAT PEOPLE HAVE. >> Father: THINK THERE'S SENSE TO IT AND IMPLICIT IN OUR DOCTRINE OF INDULGENCES. >> Doug: AND WE KNOW ALL OF THE PEOPLE WATCHING EWTN AND SO MANY HOUSE BOUND, IN NURSING HOMES AND PRAYING FOR EWTN AND OFFERING UP THEIR SUFFERING FOR THE GREAT WORK OF THE CHURCH AND FOR THEIR OWN RELATIVES. WE THANK THEM AND THANK YOU SO MUCH. FR. SPITZER WE LOOK FORWARD TO THE NEW BOOKS COMING OUT SHORTLY. AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THOSE IN THE FUTURE. NEXT WEEK, WE'VE GOT ANOTHER WHOLE PROGRAM TO TALK TO FR. SPITZER ABOUT. WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT THE EVIDENCE OF GOD'S EXISTENCE, WHY DO WE HAVE THE IMPRESSION THAT ALL SCIENTISTS ARE ATHEIST AND FR. SPITZER HAS A WHOLE GROUP OF BOOKS AVAILABLE FOR THE EWTN RELIGIOUS CATALOG. GO TO THE SITE, ewtnRC.com. AND YOUR QUESTIONS ARE VERY IMPORTANT TUESDAY. WRITE THEM TUESDAY. CHECK OUT THE IMAGINE CENTER, magiscenter.com. REMEMBER, WE ARE ON RADIO. IF YOU ARE MISSING THIS PROGRAM OR YOU TIVOED IT, OTHERWISE, IT RE-AIRS ON THURSDAY NIGHTS AT 10:00 EASTERN TIME, 7:00 PACIFIC. SUNDAY AT 3:00 A.M. FOR THOSE UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. SATURDAYS AT 12:00 ON THE EWTN RADIO. AND NEXT WEEK, YOU CAN WATCH AS WE RE-ENTER "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE". ♪
