Fall Asleep To Carl Jung | Becoming Your True Self

[Music] oh doctor you uh we have been discussing uh in some detail some of the factors in the development of the personality of the individual and you have very kindly uh elaborated for us on some of your fundamental concepts such as the archetype and at least simply what it means and certain types of archetypes such as the anima and the animus and we try to show perhaps in our discussion some of the ways that your ideas may have differed from those of dr freud now another uh concept or idea that seems to be a very interesting one in your work at least as i see it is the term or concept persona and of course this seems to have a lot of relevance to the the daily living of the individual i wonder if you would mind telling us a little bit about how you construe this term persona well this is a a practical concept we need in elucidating people's relation i noticed with my patients particularly with people that are in public life that they have a certain way of presenting themselves instance take the doctor he has a certain way versus he has good bedside manners and he behaves as one expects a doctor behaves he may even identify himself with it and believe that he is what he appears to be yeah he must appear in in a certain form unless people don't believe that he's a doctor and so when he's a professor he's also supposed to behave in a certain way so that it is plausible that he is a prophecy so the persona is partially the result of the demands society has and on the other side it is a compromise with what one likes to be or with what or as one likes to appear say so take for instance a person he also has his particular manner and as corresponding to the general expectation and he behaves also in in in another way combined with his persona that is forced upon him by society in such a way that also his fiction of himself his idea about himself is more or less portrayed or represented so the persona is a certain certain complicated system of behavior which is partially dictated by society and partially dictated by the expectations of the wishes uh when nurses once helped yes now this is not the real personality in spite of the fact that people will assure you that that is all quite real and uh quite honest yet it is not now such a uh performance or say yeah the performance of the uh of the persona is quite all right as long as you know that you are not identical with the way in which you appear yeah but if you are unconscious of this fact then you get into sometimes very disagreeable conflicts namely people will can't help noticing that at home for instance you are quite different from what you appear to be in public yeah and people who don't know it uh stumble over it in the end if they deny that they are like that but they are like that they are it then you don't know now which is the real man yes yes is he the man as he is at home or in intimate relations or is he uh the man that appears in public it is a question of jekyll and hyde yeah often it is such a occasionally there is such a difference that you would almost be able to speak of the double personality yeah and the more that is pronounced the more people people are neurotic yeah they get neurotic because they have two different ways they are contradict themselves all the time and then just as much as their own cultures of themselves but they don't know it they think they're all one everybody sees that there are two and some know him only from one side so others know him only from the other side and then there are situations that crash because the way you are creates certain situations in with people in the ovulations and these two situations don't chime in they they are just the dissonances yes yeah and uh at the moment is the case the most people on the aortic actually would you say that the individual may even have more than two personas in other words would he could he possibly uh rally you know we can't afford it very well to play more than two rules but there are there are cases for instance where people have up to five different personalities in cases of dissociation personality where for instance the one person saying call it person a doesn't know of the existence of the person b but b knows of a yes or there may be a third personality c that doesn't know of the two orders can't you see there are such cases yes there are but they are is just an ordinary uh dissociation of a personality you know one called such a systematic dissociation in contradiction to the chaotic or in unsystematic dissociation you'll find in schizophrenia yes now uh you distinguish between uh the term persona the term persona and the term ego in other words as you see them they're two different things yes yes oh yeah what is the difference between the term ego as you see it and the term the ego is supposed to be the representative of the real person but as i say for instance in the case where b knows of a but a doesn't know of b yeah in that case one would say the ego is more on the side of c because the ego has a more complete knowledge and a is a split of personality yes now you also use the term self yes how uh the word self and uh we just have a different meaning let's say eagle oh yes oh yes you see when i say self then you must think of i myself because that is only your empirical self and that is covered by the term ego yes but when it is matter of the self then it is matter of a personality that is more complete than the ego because the ego is only consists of what you are conscious of yes yes you're aware but you know to be yourself for instance in our example b that knows a on a doesn't know b b is a relatively in the position of the south yes namely the self is on the one side the ego on the other side the unconscious personality which everybody possibly is in the possession of everybody not in the possession very often it's just the other way around that the uncles within possession of consciousness that is a different case now you see while i'm talking i'm conscious of what i say i am conscious of of myself yet only to a certain extent quite a a lot of things happen once i make gestures i'm not conscious of them to happen unconsciously you can see them yeah i may say or use words and i can't remember at all having used those words or even at the moment i'm not conscious so any amount of unconscious things occur in my conscious condition i'm never fully conscious of myself while i'm trying for instance to elaborate an argument at the same time there are unconscious processes that continue perhaps a dream which i have had last night or a part of myself thinks of god knows what yeah of a trip i'm going to take or of such and such people i have seen or when i'm at say writing a paper i'm continuing writing that paper in my mind without knowing it yeah you can discover these things say in dreams or if you are clever in the immediate observation of the individual then you see in the gestures or in the expression in the face that there is something behind consciousness yes so that you you have finally the feeling uh well that man has something up his sleeve and you can even ask him now what you are what are you really thinking of your thinking all the time something else yet he is not conscious of it or he may be there of course great individual differences there are individuals are amazing knowledge of themselves of the things that go on in themselves but even those people wouldn't be incapable of knowing what is going on in their own cultures because they are not conscious of the fact that while they live a conscious life all the time a myth is played in the unconscious amidst that extents over centuries yes namely archetypal ideas a stream of archetypal ideas that goes on through one individual through the centuries yeah you see it it it is like a continuous stream and that comes into the daylight in the great moments say in political movements or in spiritual moments for instance in the time before reformation uh people dreamt of great change and that's the reason why such great transformations could be predicted if somebody has been clever enough to see what is going on in people's minds in the unconscious mind would be able to predict it for instance i have predicted the nazi rising in germany through the observation of my german patients yeah they had dreams in which the whole thing was anticipated and with considerable detail and i know i was already absolutely certain well i could say the year in the year 1919 i was sure that something was threatening in europe something very big and very catastrophic and i only knew it through the to the observation of the of of the of the cultures you see there is something very particular in the different nations this is a peculiar fact that the archetype of the arjuna plays a very great role in western literature french and anglo-saxon not in germany yes there are exceedingly few examples in germany you know that's it because of the fact that not a woman not one woman is buried unless she is buried as alt kamin vega scotty at least she must have a title otherwise she hasn't existed that's right and so you see it is just as if now mind you this is a bit drastic but it illustrates my point in germany there are no women there is father foreign son the daughter the sister no yeah that might be fun well it is the idea you see now that is a an enormous uh we know the important fact which shows that in the german mind there is going on the particular myth something very particular and psychologists really should look out for these things but they they prefer to think that i'm a prophet yeah now just in the same context of journey this is of course a very interesting and remarkable uh set of statements here uh how would you look at hitler in this light would you see him as a personification as symbol of the father oh no no no not at all no no you see i i i couldn't uh possibly uh explain that very complicated fact or hitler represents it is just too complicated you know he's a hero figure and the hero figure is far more important than any fathers that have ever existed i think much broader than right now he was a hero in he was a savior yeah he was meant to be a savior that is why they put his photo up on the orders even or somebody declared on these two so that he is uh happy to that his eyes have beheld hitler and now he can lie in peace getting back to the idea of the self and the self incorporates these unconscious uh factors the self incorporates these unconscious self is merely a term that designates the whole personality because the whole personality of man is indescribable yes his consciousness can be described his unconscious cannot be described because the unconscious i must repeat myself is always unconscious yeah and it is really unconscious it really does not knowing and so we don't know our uh our unconscious personality we have hints we have uh certain ideas but we don't know it really nobody can say where man ends that is the beauty of it you know it's it's very interesting the unconscious of man can reach god knows where we are going to make discoveries now another set of ideas which of course are very very well known to the world and of course you have originated center around the the terms introversion and extroversion yeah i know that uh you're aware of the fact that these terms have now become so widely known that the man on the street using these terms constantly describing his wife or his friends and so on and so forth become the most probably the most uh used psychological concept by the layman that we have both like the word complex i have invented into that experiment yes that's right well you see this simply practical because there are certain people who definitely are more influenced by their surroundings then by their own intentions while other people there are other people who are more influenced by the subject factor now if he the subjective factor that's very complex clause understood by freud as a sort of pathological uh auto erotism yeah yeah now this is a mistake you know we have the title has two conditions two important conditions the one is the envi environmental influence and the other is the given fact of the of the psyche as it is born looks like it's by no means we have a definite mixture on combination of genes and they are there from the very first moment of our life and they give a definite character even to the little child and that is a subjective factor look that from the outside now if you look at it from the inside yeah then it is just so as if you would observe the world yeah when you observe the world you see people you see houses you see the sky you see tangible objects but when you observe yourself within you see moving images a world of images generally known as fantasies of the earth yet these fantasies are facts it is a fact that the man has such such a fantasy and it is such a tangible fact for instance that when a man has a certain fantasy uh another man may lose his life yeah or a british built these houses were all fantasies everything you do here all of our others everything was fantasy to begin with and the fantasy has a proper reality it is that is not to be forgotten fantasy is not nothing it is of course not a tangible object but it is a fact nevertheless it is uh see a form of energy despite the fact we can't measure it it is a manifestation of something and that is a reality that is just a reality as for instance the peace treaty of versailles or something like that it is no more you can't show it yes but it it it has been a fact yes yes and and so uh the psychical events are facts are realities and when you observe the stream of images within you observe an aspect of the world of the world within because the psyche you know if you understand it as a phenomenon that takes place in so-called living bodies then it is a quality of matter as our body consists of matter we discovered that this matter has another aspect namely a psychic aspect and so it is simply the world from within seen from within it is just as if we were seeing in another into another aspect of matter yes this is a good idea that is not my invention that the old democritus already said talked of the spiritus inceptus namely the spirit that is inserted in atoms yeah that means psyche is a quality that appears in matter the doesn't matter whether we used to send it or not but this is the conclusion we come to if we draw conclusions without prejudices and so you see the man who is going by the external world by the influences of the external lord say society or perceptions sense perceptions thinks that he he is more valid you know because this is valid this is real and the man who goes by the subjective factor is not valid because subjective factor is nothing no that man is just as well based because he is based on the bases himself upon the world from within and so he is quite heightened even if he says oh this is nothing but my fantasy you know and of course is always afraid of the external world he will tell you when you ask him you he will be apologetic about it of course yes i know dude during my fantasies and uh andy is always a resentment and that's the world in general particularly america is extroverted like hell the introvert has no place because he doesn't know that he beholds the world from within and that gives him dignity and that gives him certainty because it is nowadays particularly the the world hangs on a thin thread and that is the psyche of man assume that certain fellows in moscow lose their nerve or their common sense forbid and the whole world is environment and flames yeah yeah it is nowadays we are not threatened by elementary catastrophes there is no such thing as an age problem that is all man's doing yeah we are the great danger the psychiatrist great danger what if something goes wrong with society see and so it is demonstrated to us in our days what what the power of psyche is command how important it is to know something about it but we know nothing about it no nobody would would give credit to the idea that the psychical processes of the ordinary man have any importance whatever one thing's all he has just what he has in his head is all for mr out in his thoughts absolutely such a such thing and particularly if he is well housed well fed then he had no idea that that's the great mistake because he is just that as which he is born and he is not born just also but but as a reality yes now uh of course one of the very common uh i think misconceptions of your work among some of the uh writers in america have been that they had sort of uh characterized your discussions of introversion and extraversion of suggesting that the world was made up of only two kinds of people introverts on one hand experts on the other and i'm sure you've been aware of in many of our people looking at things this way and uh of course would you like to comment about that in other words uh would you perceive the world being made up of only people or extreme introverts people that are extreme extroverts well you know bismarck once said god may protect me against my friends with my enemies i can heal myself alone you know you know how people are they have it they catch a word and then everything is schematized there is no such thing as a pure extra word of a pure intruder such a man would be the ruling as i don't those are only terms to designate a certain partial certain tendency for instance the tendency to be more influenced by environmental influences or more influence by the subjective and you see there are people who are very well balanced and are just as much influence from within ourselves or without justice later yes and so with all the the divine classifications you know they they are only uh sort of final repair points for orientation certainly when this whole matter of extremes integrated next version it just as you as you say it's sort of a scheme a schematic approach to sort of uh hang an idea an approach yeah but it would be if you say ridiculous the same my whole scheme of of typology is merely a sort of orientation namely there is such a factor as introversion there is such a factor as extraversion the classification of individuals means nothing nothing at all this is only the instrumentarium for this i call it practical psychologists to explain for instance a husband to a wife or vice versa for this it is very often the case who thought almost say it is almost a rule but i don't want to make too many rules with him in order not to be schematic yeah that an introvert marries an extrovert for compensation or another type majestic counter type to to complement in south florences well dr viewing of course uh tied in with your typology and quotation marks from introversion extroversion uh we uh first know of your concepts of thinking feeling sensation and intuition and of course would be very interesting to hear some expansion of the meaning of these particular terms as related to the introvert extrovert dichotomy there is a quite a simple examination of these terms and it shows at the same time how i arrived at such a technology namely the sensation tells you that there is something thinking roughly speaking tells you what it is feeling tells you whether it is agreeable or not to be accepted or not accepted or rejected yes and intuition now there is a difficulty yes you don't know ordinarily how intuition works so when a man has a hunch you can't tell exactly how he got attacked or where that punch comes from it is something funny about intuition uh i will tell you a little story i had two patients um the man was a sensation type and the woman was an intuitive type of course they felt attraction and so they took a little boat and went out to the lake of zurich and uh and there were those birds that died of the fish you know yeah and then after a certain time to come up again and you can't tell where they come up and so they began to pit who first was the first to to see the bird now you would think that the one who observes reality very carefully the cessation type would of course win out yeah not at all the woman won the bet completely yeah she beat she was beating him on all points because by intuition she knew it before i say now how is that possible well sometimes you know you can really find out how it works by finding the intermediate links it is a perception by intermediate links and you only get the result of that whole chain of associations sometimes you succeed in finding out but more often you don't so my definition is intuition is a perception by ways or means of the unconscious that is as near as i can get now this is a very important function because when you live on the primitive conditions a lot of unpredictable things are likely to happen and there you need your intuition because you cannot possibly tell by your perceptions by your sense perceptions what that is going to happen for instance you are travelling in primeval force you only see you for a few steps ahead you go by the compass perhaps and you don't know what that is ahead it is uncharted country if you use your intuition then you have anxious and when you live under such primitive conditions you instantly are aware of conscious forces there are places that are favorable there are places that are not favorable you can't tell for your life what it is yeah but you better follow these hunches because anything can happen quite unforeseen things for instance at the end of a long day you approach a river you don't know that there is a river yet when you come to the river that is quite unexpected for miles there is no human habitation you cannot swim of course it's all full of crocodiles uh so what you see now such a obstacle hasn't been foreseen but it may be that you have had a hunch that you remained in in the last likely spot and that you wait for the following day that you can build a raft or something of the sort or look out for possibilities you uh for instance you also can have intuitions in in that constantly happens in our jungle called a city yeah you can be have a hunch something is going wrong particularly when you are driving an automobile yeah for instance you it is a day where nurses appear in the street yeah and and they always try to to get something interesting like a suicide you know to be a renovation marvelous apparently yeah and and then you know uh you get a peculiar feeling and uh really at the next call of all it is a second nurse that runs in front of the automobile yeah you see the duplicity of cases you know that is a rule you know that such charms happenings coming groups yeah and so you see we are constantly we have constantly warnings hints that consists perhaps in a in a slight feeling of uneasiness uncertainty fear now on the primitive circumstances you will pay attention to these things you you they they mean something with us in our man-made absolutely apparently safe conditions we don't need that function so so very much yeah yet we we still use it so you find the activities of typescripts amongst bankers what's great men yeah they follow handshakes you know gamblers of all descriptions you find the type very frequently among doctors because it helps them in their prognosis sometimes a case can look quite uh normal as it were and you don't foresee any complications yet an inner voice tells you now look out here something not quite all right you know you cannot tell why and how but we have a lot of subliminal perceptions sense perceptions and from those we probably draw a good deal of our intuitions but that is perception by the way of the unconscious yeah and you can you can observe that with intuitive types you see intuitive types very often do not perceive by their eyes or by their ears they perceive by intuition for instance once it happened that i had a woman patient in the morning at nine o'clock and you see i often smoke my five mccarran smell of tobacco in the room and so she uh she came and said but you begin early and say you call it earlier no you you must have seen somebody at eight o'clock i said how do you know that there have been a man there there must have been a gentleman with you this morning i said yeah all the time you know the ashley was under her nose and there was a half smoked cigar [Laughter] but she wouldn't notice it yeah so is he the intuitive he's a type that doesn't see doesn't see the stamping block before his feet but but he's had for 10 miles yeah you make a distinction between an intuitive extrovert and an intuitive yes for example more specifically what would be an uh example or a difference between an intuitive extrovert and an intuitive introvert well you know the you have chosen a somewhat difficult case you know because the one of the most difficult types is the intuitive intellect yeah is more difficult because he has intuitions as to the subjective factor namely the inner world yes and of course that is now very difficult to understand because what he sees are most uncommon things and he doesn't like to talk of them if he's not a fool because he he would spoil his own game by telling what he sees because people won't understand it yes for instance once i i had a patient a young woman about 20 27 or 8 and at first wordsworth when i had cheated her he said you know doctor i come to you because i have a snake in my abdomen yes a snake a black snake coiled up right in the in in in the bottom of my abdomen and i must have made another bewildered face you know i i i don't mean it literally but i should say it was a snake it was just saying now you see our further conversation a little later was as you said that was about in the middle of our treatment that only lasted for ten consultations and she had foretold me i caught 10 times and then it's all right i said how do you know oh i got to learn yeah and really about the fifth or sixth hour she said the doctor i must tell you that the snake has risen it is now about here hunch and then in on the 10th day i say now this is our last hour and do you feel cured and she said beaming she said you know this morning it came up and came out of my mouth and the head was cold i thought those were all last words now [Music] you see that same girl when you come clean when it comes to reality she came to me because she couldn't hear the step of her of her of her feet anymore yeah because she walked on air yeah literally yeah she couldn't hear it that frightened her and when she came to me i asked for her address and then she said oh so-and-so well it is not just cow called barcelona but it is a sort of possum and it is i never had heard of it yes now i request i never have heard of that place well it's a very nice place to hate because enough the only young girls they're very nice and very lively young girls and they have a merry time i often wish they would invite me to their merry evenings and i said but they amused themselves all alone oh no there are plenty of young gentlemen coming in and they have a beautiful time but they never invite me it turned out that it was a private brother yeah and she was a perfectly decent girl you know of a very good family not from here she and she had found a place i don't know how and and she was critically unaware that those were all prostitutes except for heaven's sake he fell in into into a very dark place you you you hasten to get out of it is it that is not her sensation yes she doesn't see reality yeah but she had hunches like anything and they came off yeah now is he such a person cannot possibly speak of uh of her experiences yeah because everybody would think she's absolutely crazy yeah i myself because you don't hear that kind of speech but she assumed that the old man of course knows everything and he even doesn't understand such kind of language so you see if when or when the in intuitive uh the introverted intuitive would speak what he really perceives then pacquiao know what he would understand he would be misunderstood and so they learn to keep things to themselves and you hardly ever hear them talking of these things that is a great disadvantage but it is an enormous advantage in another way not to speak of the experience they gather in that respect but also in human relations for instance they come into the presence of somebody they don't know and certainly there have inner images and these inner images give them a more or less complete information about the psychology of the partner yeah you know that is but it of case can also happen that they're coming to pray into the presence of somebody who they don't know at all not from man and they know an important piece out of the biography of that person yes yes and are not the wealth of it and tell the story yes uh identify this in the fire you see so the the introverted intuitive is is uh has a in a way a very difficult life although one of the most interesting lives but it is difficult often to get into their confidence you know yes because you say they're afraid that people will think that they're sick the things they impact that are interesting to them or are vital to them are actually strange to the ordinary individual yes the psychologist should know of such things you see yes you see when when people make a psychology as a psychologist what to do well it is the very first question is the extrovert of the royalty if we look at entirely different things yeah you see a sensation type is in intuitive type is she thinking is he feeling that because you see these things are complicated that they are they are still more complicated because the introverted thinker for instance is compensated by extroverted feeling by inferior extroverted archaic accelerated so an introverted thinker may be very crude in his feeling like for instance the introverted philosopher that is always carefully avoiding women will be married by his cook in the end [Laughter] yeah now then in other words then we can take your introverted extrovert categories and in a sense go through uh describing a sensation introvert type sensation extrovert type thinking introvert type thinking and so on in each case it stems from really not real category but simply as you say an approach something to uh sort of help us study a model it is just a sort of a skeleton to which you have to add the flesh or say you it is a country knocked out you know by triangulation points and that doesn't mean the country consists of triangulation points yeah that is only in order to to have an idea of the distances and and so it is a means to an end it only makes sense uh such a scream when when you have when you deal with practical creation of course you're familiar with the work of dr jb ryan and of course some of his work in extra sensory perception and clairvoyance some of the descriptions in his work sound quite a bit at times like intuitive functions and uh in terms of your knowledge of this work would you say that uh a person who has clairvoyance in a sense would then be an intuitive type person in his experiment more likely that's quite powerful or um it can be a sensation type say an extroverted sensation type that is very much influenced by the unconscious i think because he has introverted intuition in his own cultures you see there are two groups the the rational group and the irrational group the rational group is thinking and feeling because the ideal thinking is a rational result feeling also a rational result rational values yeah that is differentiated feeling whereas sensation must need to be irrational because it may it may not prejudice facts yeah is he it shall not present his facts the the real uh ideal perception is that you have an accurate perception of the things as they are without addition or corrections on the other side the intuition uh does not look at the things as they are that is prison that is another modular intuition it looks oh ever so shortly at the things as they are and makes off into an unconscious process at the end of which we have seen something nobody else would have seen yet now so you see these uh people who yield the best results are always those people were introverted or introverted intuition comes in yeah but you see that is a side aspect of it it's not interesting yeah there's a question there's another question far more interesting namely that the terms they use themselves recognition etc they mean nothing at all they're worse but he thinks he has said something when he says that everything yeah that's something the word itself is not a description of the process that's what you're saying now of course a lot of the things that you're describing i think often scientists will say well this is due to chance chance occurrences chance factors and ryan and his own work use statistical methods we find this happening more often than would be expected by chance well you see he proves that it is more than chance yes it is statistically gospel yes and that is the important point yes and that hasn't been contradicted yes you see there was a such a pool sap what's happened that happened in england the man said oh right but that's nothing but but this work exactly what is it disgusting yeah what you call guessing a hutch is guessing yeah you could be the definite guess of a definite guess you know he's a hunch you know just that yeah but that means nothing you see the point is that it is more than than merely probable yeah it is not it is it is beyond chance and that is the great problem and but you know people hate such problems they can't deal with internet concrete even doesn't understand that respect because it is a relativation now i'm going to say something which in these sacred rooms is a real relativation of time and space through the psyche that's the fact that is what the light has made evident yeah now so all of that well that's that's difficult well may i may i go a little further and uh for some of your recent work which is indeed very profound and uh it is not too well known to many of our students of course not and of course this is over to reach these things in the general public and because my books are at least sold i'm referring now to uh the the concept of synchronicity which you have discussed and which would have some relevance at this point in our discussion uh would you care to comment a little bit on where the concept is where to begin of course it is this kind of thinking has been started long ago and when ryan brought out his results i i thought now we have at least a more or less dependable basis the two arguments you know but the augment was not understood at all because it's it's really very very difficult you know there are plenty of facts in the observation of the unconscious where you come across the cases of a very peculiar kind of parallel events namely that say i have a certain thought or a certain definite subject is occupying my attention my interest at the same time something else quite independently happens that portrays just that thought yes now this is a nonsense you know from looked at from a causal point of view that it is not nonsense is made evident by the results of white's experiments there is a probability it is something more than chance that such a case occurs now i have i never made statistical experiments to accept one in the in the way of height i have made one for for another purpose um but i have come across quite a number of cases where it was most astounding to find that uh two causal change happened at the same time but independent upon uh upon each other so that you could say they have nothing to do with each other of course it's quite clear for this just so i speak of a of a red car and at that moment a red car comes here you see yes now i haven't seen it it was impossible because it was behind the building in this moment the red car appears now this is the smear challenge the exercise experiment proves that these cases are not mere charges of course uh many of these things are occurrences where we cannot apply such an argument otherwise it would be superstitious we can't say now this car has appeared because here was uh the remarks have been made about the red car yes it's not causing effect this is a miracle that the red car appears it's not a discharge yeah it's just chance but these chances happen more more often than chance allows yes we have no means here you know and i had no means to make such an experience otherwise i probably would have done them but i uh this just was physically impossible so i had to contact myself with the observational facts i began an examination of the human attitudes namely how our consciousness functions i couldn't help seeing voices the difference between foreign assumes that things evolve along the line of the sex instinct the other assumes that things evolve along the line of power drive and there i was i was in between the two with a tweet the justification of rsview i could also see the same for other and i knew that there are plenty of other ways in which things could be envisaged and so i i considered my scientific duty to examine first the condition of the human consciousness that is the originator of ways of envisaging it is the fact that producers attitudes conscious attitudes towards certain phenomena so when you know for instance that uh there are people who see the difference between red and green uh you can take it for a fact that everybody sees that difference not at all there are a piece of tortonium and and so on you know the ones is this the overseas that and i tried to find out what the principle the the principle differences were and that is the book about the types as well versus intellect and extroverted attitude then the functional aspects in the which of the four functions is predominant now imagine these four functions were not a scheme i had invented and applied to psychology on the contrary it took me quite a long time to discover that there is uh another type but this thinking type which i thought my type is is is of course statistic that is human it is not there are other people who decide the same problems i have to decide in an entirely different way telepathies in an entirely different way they have entirely different values there are precious feeling types and so after a while i discovered that there are intuitive facts they gave me much trouble it took me over over a year to become somewhat clear about the the existence of intuitive types and the last and the most unexpected was the sensation type and only later on i saw that those are natural in the core aspects of conscious orientation you can increase the number of principles but i found the most simple ways the way i told you yeah the division by four is a simple and actual division of a circle i didn't know the symbolism of this particular classification only when i started the archetypes i became aware that this is a very important archetype that has a an enormous role i also found in the study of the types that it gives us a certain lead as to the personal nature of the unconscious the personal quality of the unconscious in a given case versus an extrovert well he's unconscious has then an introverted quality because all the extraordinary qualities are played in consciousness and and the introverts directly unconscious therefore it has informative quality and so on with the functions the same that gave me a lead of this diagnostic value it helped me to understand my patients well professor yoong um we have been discussing many of the very fundamental ideas in your theories such as anima and animus of course being representative of the whole idea of archetypes as you explained it so interestingly and we talked a little bit about this whole conception of the ego and the self and the persona as they are involved in all this and as we speak of course it begins to uh point to the direction of the sort of question that is so important as we try to understand the individual and this centers around the problem of motivation why the person does what he does now to a great degree you've already talked about this when you talked about archetypes and and this this whole matter now in the work of uh dr freud he spoke of libido as an energy and earlier we spoke of libido and the fact that you felt that it was more than just sexual energy you felt like it could be something much broader now you have certain uh principles about psychic energy which are indeed very provocative now one of this principle is i believe you refer to [Music] the main point is you know the the standpoint of energetics yeah as applied to psychic phenomena there you have no possibility to measure exactly so it always remains a sort of an an analogy freud for instance uses the term libido in the sense of sexual energy and now that is not quite correct you see if it is sexual then it is a power yeah like electricity or any other form of manifestation of energy yeah now energy is a concept yeah energy is a concept by which you try to express the analogies of all power manifestations mainly data have a certain quantity a certain intensity and that there is a flow in one direction namely to the ultimate suspension of the opposites for instance i think low high [Music] height or and so something similar is the case in psychology that you see from the factories we get tired from uh international work from consciously living and then we must sleep in order to restore our powers in this church are said in the night as if the the water will pump from the lower level to higher levels again the next day yeah of course that similarly is limping too yeah so it is only in an analogous way that we use the term energy yeah and i used it because i wanted to express the fact that the power manifestation of sexuality is not the only power manifestation because you have a lot of time uh say the right to [Music] there are many forms you see for just to take animals the way they are building the rest the urge of the of the traveling board you know that migrates now all they are driven by a sort of energy manifestation and and you see the meaning of the word sexuality would be entirely gone if everything is support himself so that this is not applicable everywhere and later on he he corrected himself by assuming that there are also ego egos you see now that is something else yes that's a lot of manifestation now in order not to resume or to prejudice things i uh speak simply of energy an energy this is a quantity of energy that can manifest via sexuality via any other it's any other type and that is the main creature not the existence of one single power i think because that is not wrong now another thing about a motivation or a condition to rouse and direct and sustain the individual there seems to be two uh views that we find in much of our psychology in america today now one is might be calling historical view where we try to look in the history and development of the individual for answers to why he's doing certain things at the moment yes then we have another view which was uh postulated discussed by dr kurt levine yeah dr kurt lewin which is sort of a field theory he thinks that the history the past is not important motivation but all conditions which uh affect the individual at that moment we predict behavior by knowing all the conditions in that moment that we don't have to go back to the past to understand uh why the person does what he does now would you uh do you think that this present feel idea of dr lewin has any virtue does it make sense obviously i always insist that even chronic neurosis has its true cause in the moment now now that the neosis is made every day by the whole attitude the individual has but at home attitude is a sort of fact that needs to be explained historically yeah by things that have happened in the past yeah but that is one-sided too because the uh you know all psychological facts are uh oriented um not only to of course but also to a a certain goal yeah as easily they are they are in a way teleological yes namely uh they serve a certain purpose yeah and so um their own attitude can have originated in a certain way long ago but it wouldn't exist today anymore if there were not immediate causes and immediate purposes that keep it alive today yes yes it can be finished certainly on a certain day uh despite of our courses yes has observed in the beginning of the war the cases of compulsion erosion that have lasted for many years yeah certainly were cured yes yes because they got into an entire higher new condition it is like a shock which you see that with shortcuts schizophrenia can be vastly improved by bioshock yes because that's a new condition it is a very shocking thing that shocks them out of their habitual attitude and then they are normal in it and then the whole the whole thing collapses the whole system that has been built up for years yes so in therapy in working with a patient you would not say that it's absolutely imperative to have to reformulate all this past life in order to help him with his present neurosis you feel that you you could deal with them at the moment with this problem as it is at this time and it's not necessary to go back and probe into things that happened to him during his first session a third year of life you see there is no system about it in therapy yeah in therapy you you treat the patient as he is in the present moment irrespective of causes and such things that is all more or less yes there are there are cases who know just as much about their own roses as i know about it in a way in such cases i can start right away with posing the problem for instance [Music] there is a case a professor of philosophy and he imagines that he has cancer he shows me a several dozen x-ray plates that prove that there is no cancer and he says of course i have no cancer but nevertheless i'm afraid i could have one you see i have consulted so many assertions and they all assure me there is none and i know there is none but i might have one you see and that's enough yeah now you see such a case can step from one moment to the other yeah he simply stops thinking such a foolish thing you see i think but that is exactly what he cannot do yeah and in such a case i say well it's working it's nonsense what you believe but now why are you forced to uh believe such nonsense what is the power that makes you think such a thing against your free will you know what is nonsense and why should you think it or what force would you think it yeah and what is that power that makes you think such a thing it's like like a possession you know yes exactly it's like a demon like that yeah in spite of the fact that he doesn't want it yes then we have the problem that is the problem for an intellectual man and then i say now you see you don't know you have no answer i have no answer yes now what are we going to do yes we'll never even see what you mean because the dream is the manifestation of the unconscious side now he never has thought of the unconscious side so i must explain to him that he has an unconscious and that the dream is a manifestation of it and if we succeed in analyzing the dream we we might get an idea about that power that makes him think like that i think you see so in such a case one can begin right away with the analysis of dreams and in all cases that are a bit serious mind you this is not a simple basis it's a very clear yet difficult case in spite of the simplicity of the phenomenology of the symptomatology in all cases after the preliminaries the history of the family the medical analysis etc we come to that question what is it in your home cultures that makes you wrong that hinders you to take normally and then we are there where we can begin with the observation of the unconscious and then day by day one goes on by the darkest young cultures producers you see we discuss the dream and that gives a new surface to the whole problem and he will have another dream and the next stream gives again an answer because the unconscious is in a compensated relationship consciousness and and after a while he takes the full picture and if he has a full picture and uh has the necessary moral stamina well then he can be cured i think but in the end it is a moral question but if a man applies what he had learned yes so you see that in a sense in this situation um the the unconscious plays a very important part uh the unconscious which is found in the dream but if you see it then what you have found in this dream is not necessarily then a uh image or symbol of what has happened in the past in his particular life or not at all it is just the symbol of the is a special term thing symbol it is the manifestation of the situation of the young culture looked at from the approaches i think you see i tell you something which is my personal or subjective view and if i ask myself how are you really quite convinced of it well i must admit i have certain doubts there are certain doubts not in the moment when i tell you but these doubts are in the unconscious and when you have a dream about it it just starts to come to the forefront in my dreams yeah and that is the way the unconscious looks at the thing yeah yeah this is just source if you unconsciously say oh yes that's all now if the unconscious acts on this present situation now looking at this thing in throughout motivational terms now this effect of the unconscious is not something which is the result of repression in the same way the the orthodox psychological side at all it may be you know in most cases the people would be probably less neurotic if they could admit the things these things are so there is always a certain amount of repression but that is not the main thing not the main thing is that they are really unconscious yes and you see if you are unconscious in about certain things that ought to be conscious then you are dissociated and then you are a man whose uh left hand never knows what the right is doing yeah and counteracts or interferes with the fighter yeah how such a man is hampered all over the place yeah now looking at the unconscious in this way of course this is a if you say it's unconscious how can we know how to go but trying to just do that wrong just as an illustration uh with a particular individual we might say who has been brought up in a in a in a culture such as the culture of india the particular individual in english as we were if we could examine his unconscious would it be in in many respects say similar to the unconscious of a particular individual who would say uh lived in switzerland of his life in other words you spoke early about these universals would there be a a great deal of uh equivalence between the unconscious of a particular individual who's been raised one culture and another individual was raised in entirely different countries well disease there are also complicated because when we speak of the unconscious we almost should say which unconscious namely is it that personal unconsciousness which is for herself and person for itself an individual so that you have the personal unconscious this is one yeah it's a personal unconscious and in in treatment for instance in the treatment of neurosis you have to do with a personal unconscious for quite a while and then only dreams conduct show that the collective encoders is touched apart now as long as there is material for personal nature yes you have to deal with the personal approach but when you get to say to a question to a problem which is no more merely personal but also collective you get collectively yeah now the distinction then between the personal unconscious and the collective unconscious then is that the personal is uh could be more involved with the immediate life of the individual and the collective would be universal would be the same elements of all men for society instance collective problems yes collective convictions and so on yes now we are very much influenced by them yeah but you belong to a certain political party or through a certain confession yeah and uh that can be a serious determinant of your behavior yes now other matter of personal conflict doesn't touch upon it it's no question it doesn't appear but the moment you transcend your personal sphere and come to your own personal determinants say to the question a political question or any other social question which really matters to you yeah then you are comfortable with the collective problem and then you have correct extremes yeah i wonder if it would be too presumptuous for me to ask if you could for the moment think of an actual case of perhaps a patient or a friend in which you might show us rather specifically how the personal and the collective unconscious were acting say his neurosis or perhaps in a problem that he may have seen here there is an enormous amount of personal dreams for instance and i couldn't possibly tell you just a moment just before but yeah there are millions of such persons researching to deal with with all sorts of individual variations now but the suppose a patient comes to to that in to that level or that his conflict begins to become really very serious that his uh his mind might suffer then he can have a collective three yeah in which uh clearly uh mythological motives appear i think there are plenty of examples in illinois a case was very rational yeah and he had of course a lot of personal uh problems and but they got so bad that he uh brought into uh into pelvis in grievous relations to his whole surroundings with the people of that society you know and it was very quite shocking yes now he started this with collective dreams yes suddenly he dreamt of things he had never thought of in his life before uh mythological motives and and he thought he was crazy yeah because he he couldn't understand it at all just as if the whole world was transformed now that is uh what you see in in in cases of schizophrenia you know to make it clear i should tell a long story and then you see where it applies otherwise it makes no sense and then something sure well i i told you that case of that intuitive floor yeah yeah who certainly came out with the statement actually perhaps she's crazy yeah but she and and that is something known to some few specialists generally it's not known that we have a certain india woman yeah but that [Music] now in day-to-day living uh the individual uh is it possible that things that uh trouble them and cause tension that he represses now these things that he represses will become part of the person part of the personal unconscious yes yes he doesn't repress consciously always yeah these things disappear simply disappear and void explains that by act of repression yeah but you can prove that these things never have been conscious before yeah yeah they simply don't appear ah that is why they didn't appear because they are very disagreeable or incompatible with conscious views with this conscious attitude i feel uh but that is afterwards you couldn't predict it yes yes so you see these things uh that are have an emotional tone yes they are partially autonomous so that they can appear or the contributions do not appear they can disappear at wish not of the subject the doctor yes or you also have a question yeah but it is all the same issues with uh with um the projections for instance people say one makes projections yes it's not suitable it doesn't make them and feinstein that are already there because the unconscious has is here not conscious preparedness conscious yeah in my in my brother yeah i i see the the beam of my eye in the as a sprinter in my brother's eye that is right there because i'm unconscious of the beam in my eyes i say projections are not made and so these these disappearances or so-called depressions are just like projections they instead of being projected into somebody or into something outside they are introjected they are i should say the majority of cases are really fascist yes there simply that was my first point of litigation with her yeah yeah i saw in the association experiment that certain contractors are quite certainly not repressed they simply won't appear yeah yeah because you see the unconscious is real yeah it is an entity it it rises by itself yes i see so in a sense when and looking at the so-called defense mechanisms that the orthodox psychoanalysts speak of like projection rationalization and so on and so forth then in a sense where you would differ from the orthodox psychoanalytic view oh yes you would not say that they are uh a repressed type of way of defending a man in which the ego was being defended but rally would say that they were already there there's simply a manifestations of patterns that are already present in in the unkind yes uh that never has been repressed you know otherwise you should have been conscious to her in the most exactly unconscious and it only appears to appear in her purposes yes yes i see it appeared spontaneously yeah she didn't know how she came to it yeah i i just saw it yeah now the uh some of the orthodox psychoanalyst writers said this is a phallic symbol oh yes yes awesome but you can't say anything you know you can't say your church is a phallic symbol yeah but when you dream of a penis what is that yeah you know what an analogy said yeah one of the older votes yeah the old guard yeah he said in this case the sensor has uh not functioned yeah no we call the scientific explanation well professor young in our several interesting businesses so far a great deal of our talk has been some of the very fundamental aspects of your theory your writing and of course the purpose and and getting some of your reactions to these fundamental ideas so that our students many of whom have not had an opportunity to study a great deal of your work might sort of be introduced to some of your ideas from you personally which of course is probably the best way they possibly could be now this as one looks over your work one of the press with a much broader scope of course and the just the beginning fundamental outline of the theory of personality well of course when you study human psychology you can't help noticing that man that doesn't man psychology doesn't only consist of the ramifications of instinct in this behavior this this is not the only determinant there are many others and the study of man from his biological aspect only is by far insufficient to understand your psychology it is absolutely necessary that you steady man also in this social and general environment and so you have to um because here for instance the fact that there are different kinds of society different kinds of nations different traditions and to that purpose it is absolutely necessary that one treats the problem of the human psyche from many standpoints and which is a most considerate of the past naturally thus when i after my association experiments when i realized that there is obviously an unconscious the question of whose now what is this unconscious does it consist merely of rests of remnants of conscious activities or are there things that are practically forever unconscious with other words is the unconscious factor in itself and i soon came to the conclusion that the unconscious must be a factor in itself because i observe time and again that for instance the people's streams or schizophrenic patients delusions practices contain the motifs which i couldn't possibly have acquired in our surroundings this depends upon the fact that the child is not born but it is a definite mixture of a combination of genes and the gene although the genes seem to contain chiefly dynamic factors of of a certain behavior they have a tremendous importance also for the arrangement of society the titan tool in as much as it appears actually before it appears you cannot study it but in as much as it appears it has certain qualities it has a certain character and that needs must depend upon the elements born in the child so factors determining human behavior are born with the child and determine its further development now that is one side of the picture the other side of the picture is the individual lives in connection with others in certain definite surroundings that will influence the demon combination of qualities and that is now also a very complicated factor because the environmental influences are not nearly personal there are any amount of objective factors the general social conditions laws convictions ways of looking at things of dealing with things now these things are not of an object market high character they are historical there are historical reasons why things are sailor and as there are historical reasons for the qualities of the type that is is such a thing as the history of the man's evolution in in the past years and that shows that the real understanding of the tightening must consist in the illustration of the history of the human race history of the mind for instance as of the biological factors biological data so when i wrote my first book concerning the psychology of the uncultures i already had formed a certain idea of the nature of the unconfused to me it was then a living remnant of the original history of man living in his surroundings a very complicated picture of course you brought up many many very of course very interesting provocative ideas here as you have of course in your many many uh thousands of pages of writing and written work and uh of course running through all your work there are many of these ideas in the the personal unconscious the race unconscious itself the eagle the persona the energy principles such as we mentioned entropy and equivalence and so on in a sense the first the second law of thermodynamics i believe that you uh suggest or allude to and uh uh now in trying to look at the whole person of course uh uh we're one of struck that you are trying hard to look at the whole person if you don't want to look at these little parts of this person but feel the sort of a total future realization of a whole that may be very important that you talk for example about a process of individuation how this whole person emerges they're not mistaken would you like to comment a little bit upon this process of individuation this process uh how all these factors move toward a whole a totality well you know that's something quite simple take an econ put it into the cloud because it becomes an oak yes you see that is man yes the man develops from an egg yeah and develops him into the whole man when you spoke with uh dr einstein in your early discussions you were saying earlier that uh he more or less tried out some of his ideas on you did you ever uh uh bring to him the possibility or ask your opinion about the probability that relativity might apply to psychic function that he ever given is just that particularly you know how it is when a man is so concentrated about his own idea and when he is a mathematician yeah on top of her yeah then you are not welcome when you spoke with uh dr einstein in your early discussions saying earlier that he wants to find out some of his ideas on you did you ever uh praise him the possibility or ask your opinion about the prosperity that relativity might apply to psychic function did he ever be guaranteed that picture you know how it is with a man he is so concentrated [Music] what year was it that you were friends with einstein i wouldn't call myself a friend i thought i was simply the host you know one year was the time that i tried to listen to understand and so there was little chance to observe some of my own ideas was this uh after he'd already formulated the relativity theory or just before he lost just when he uh when he walked on it when he was while he was working here in your dealings with we uh with uh professor toynbee you know we were discussing this you knew we had contact with him uh have you uh uh gotten rather interested in his ideas of history oh yes you see his ideas about the life of civilizations that is a rule by archetypal forms and he told me has seen that what i mean by the historical function of archetypal developments i think that is a mighty important determinant of human behavior that lasts for centuries or for thousands of years and expresses itself in in symbols yeah sometimes city symbols you would think nothing okay for instance you you know that the russia the soviet republics have that symbol of the red star yeah no it's a vibrating star america has the fight hate white star yeah they are enemies yeah they can't come together now in in middle ages for about at least 2 000 years the red and the white is the couple that is ultimately destined to marry each other yeah yeah i think thank you very very empathy and so america is a sort of make they are hearing as much as most of the money is in the hands of women is the land of the little father yeah two logos that fall [Laughter] i was about to discuss ask you a little bit about what seems to be a very fundamental part of your writing and your ideas and it's encased in the term uh mandela yeah now this seems to be sort of an ultimate realization uh direction and i would certainly be most interested in hearing your observations on this idea well mandala is just one typical archetypal form yeah it is the what they call this it's a square in the circle yeah or the circle of the square yeah and it is an age-old symbol yeah that goes right back into the pre-history of man and it's all over the world yes and it either expresses the deity or the south yeah and these two terms are psychologically very much related yeah which doesn't mean that i believe that god is the salvatore that's a selfish god thank you i make that statement that there is psychological relation and that can be a plenty of evidence for it yeah and it is a very important artifact it's the archive of inner water and it is always used in that sense either to make an arrangement arrangement of the many many aspects of the universe a world scheme or a scheme of when there is great disorder and chaos in a man's mind then this symbol can appear as in the form of a mandala in the dream or when you mix imaginary fantastical drawings or something there it spontaneously appears as a compensatory archetype bringing order showing the possibility of order of directions it is um now and speaking of this totality which you say is sort of unifying the self and of course as you suggested here that the mandala is this very important archetype symbolizing this balance i believe he is alluded to here is of course uh sometimes we we try in psychology to start from whatever totality does exist in the individual and try to sort of look into uh underlying motivation and we have recently uh used a great deal certain types of testing that we call projective tests and as you've already suggested and we all know of course very well that you certainly played a major role in developing this point of view with your word association method and of course to a great degree another very interesting development of course about 1922 herman russia developed his inkblot or rorschach test now first of all to even talk a little bit more about word associated words we talked a little bit about it already we've heard these comments on it uh we'd like to if it would uh if we could here perhaps get into it a little bit more detail now uh first of all what are the ingredients of the word association test what what what uh what is the vowel in the use of it you mean the practical yeah who will you see in the when i was a beginning man of course i i was completely with this desire with patients i didn't didn't know where to begin or what to say yeah yeah and the association has given me a chance to offer access to their cultures yes i i learned about the things that did not tell me yeah and that was a deep insight into the things they did not now would you say that uh from responses and you say complexes are sort of emotional supposed to be of course this word complex i know is is originated from these complexes or emotional blocks that you uncovered as you administer this test to get at materials of the personal unconscious or the racial unconscious or all of the factors individuals in the beginning there was no question of collecting no he has circumvented me as much as possible yes but did you get to know him uh personally no he did not i don't know yes in his intro and extensive ideas of course he's talking a great deal about your introversion extroversion ideas yes i i was an optima because i i had to first say it you see that that was unforgivable you really didn't have any personal contact with merchants no personalization at all no i see are you familiar with with this test have you seen this test the rorschach test oh yes yes because i never applied it you'll never find it because i later on of course i didn't apply the association test anymore because it wasn't necessary i i learned what i have to learn but for the exact uh examination of cyber reactions uh i think it is very accurate yeah yeah would you say for example that the practicing psychiatrist the clinical psychologist or the practicing psychiatrist uh could use these projective tests like the wrong disease to do for the education of the psychologist yes uh meant to do actual work with people yeah i i think involved the best means to make them see how their problem works is that right the projected test is exceedingly the amnesty phenomena because the way in which people cover their emotions and so on yeah it is like an ordinary conversation but seen and measured in its principles yeah needs to surrender actually yes you observe all the things you observe in a conversation yes for instance you ask people something you discuss certain things and you observe little hesitations mistakes in speech certain chests all that comes in the forecasting and measurable you know yeah india is the experiment and so i think i don't want to overrate the exact value um that is one of the reasons of of tuberculosis that arises from such a condition people have a very shallow breathing don't ventilate the episodes of the bologna anymore and that is tuberculosis half of hypocritical cases of title yes of course this matter of psychic tubercular cases and so on of course gets us into a particularly interesting special case of motivation that we're talking a lot about the united states today and i'm sure that uh you also this is the whole area of psychosomatic medicine the way our unconscious and emotional uh elements of the whole person quite a lot of astounding cures of tuberculosis product tuberculosis by by analysis of where people learn to breathe again but it wouldn't have happened if they had learned to breathe normally that wouldn't have helped but understanding what the complexities was that when did you first uh become interested in the exciting factors tuberculosis was it many years ago when did you first become interested in these psychic factors of tuberculosis i was always at first i'm interested actually yeah yeah now of course i was removed because i understood so little okay yeah oh i don't use that but there's just absolutely yeah now the uh the the point that this leads to very logically the point i start making a moment ago i was trying to interrupt you but you see this is very much the heart of a lot of our thinking today the area that we call psychosomatic medicine yes where we are now right now becoming more and more interested in the very thing you're saying how these emotional all these unconscious how these personality factors can actually have effect on the body and of course the classic examples uh in the united states in the past have been for example the peptic ulcer where they believe this is a case of where these emotional factors have actually created pathology in the body and of course we've extended these ideas into many other areas we for example feel that where there already is pathology that these emotional factors can intensify it not only can it create it but it can intensify existing pathology or sometimes there may be actually symptoms of apology without the patterns now for example many of our physicians or as you say alienists in america say that 60 or 70 of their patients are not individuals who have anything that really physically is wrong with them but they have disorders that are of psychosomatic origin yeah well yes since more than 50 years yeah but the question is how to cure them now what uh what is the uh speaking of these psychosomatic disturbances um and as you say tuberculosis would be one example we are now of course very interested in further research in this matter in the united states and for that matter and other parts of the world um what uh do you have any uh ideas as to why the patient selects this type of symptom for a problem why does he uh show his problem he doesn't sell it he got into him as well when you are eaten by a crocodile in a sense that unconsciously hot why is elected no one doesn't you don't believe that there's any way of tracing any uh person out of the individual a reason you see that is an extraordinary exaggeration of the importance of the subject i think as if we were choosing such things even unkind of him even unconsciously now um in the whole matter of psychosomatic medicine uh they have now for example very recently hindered that cancer may have psychosomatic involvement number one this doesn't surprise you that and even even cancer the fact that cancer may have well you see i couldn't swear yeah but i have seen cases where i thought now i should wonder well there was not a psychogenic psychogenic reason for that it came too conveniently and so some of the studies that for example in the united states show that uh for example jewish women practically never get cancer in the vaginal regions yes we're more often to get cancer say the breastfeeding is one example and well many things can be found out of our cancer i'm sure you see to us it was always a question how to decrease these things and uh uh anything is possible every disease has a title a psychological uh a comparison yeah and you it all depends perhaps life depends upon it whether you treated such a patient psychologically psychologically in the proper way or not yeah that can help tremendously yeah even if you cannot prove in the least cut the the disease itself is practical yeah or you can have an infectious disease in a certain moment of psychical ailment of predicament because you're you're particularly accessible to an infection because angina is such a typical psychological disease yeah yeah yet it is not psychological in this physical position yeah yeah it's just an infection yeah but why then well it was a psychological moment when it is established and there's high fever and then access you cannot cure it by psychology yet it is quite possible that you can avoid it by psychology so all this interest in psychological medicine is pretty old stuff here yeah and we're not at all surprised by the new development for instance with the toxic aspect of schizophrenia yes i have published it 50 years ago yeah just 50 years ago there are now now a little wonderful yeah you see you are far ahead in america the technological things but in in psychological battles and such things you simply are not yet aware of what there is there are plenty more things even people have have an idea of i told you that there is you see everyone who says that i'm a mystique you know is just an idiot well he doesn't understand the first world of psychology well professor young in our several interesting so far a great deal of our talk has been from the very fundamental aspects of your theory your writing and of course the purpose and getting some of your reactions to these fundamental ideas so that our students many of whom have not had an opportunity to study a great deal of your work might sort of be introduced to some of your ideas from you personally which of course is probably the best way they possibly could be now this as one looks over your work one is impressed with a much broader scope of course just the beginning fundamental outline of a theory of well of course when you study human psychology you can't help noticing that man that doesn't man psychology doesn't only consist of the ramifications of instinct in this behavior this this is are not the only determinants there are many other and the study of man from his biological aspect only is by far insufficient to understand human psychology it is absolutely necessary that you study man also in his social and general environment and so you have to consider for instance the fact that there are different kinds of society different kinds of nations different traditions and to that purpose it is absolutely necessary that one treats the problem of the human tightening from many standpoints and which is a multicultural because actually thus when i after my association experiments when i realized that there is obviously an unconscious the question whose now what is this unconscious does it consist merely of rests of remnants of conscious activities or are there things that are practically forever unconscious with other words is the unconscious factor in itself and i soon came to the conclusion that the unconscious must be a factor in itself because i observe time and again that for instance people's streams or schizophrenic patients delusions practices contain the motives which they couldn't possibly have acquired in our surroundings this depends upon the fact that the child is not born popular but it is a definite mixture of a combination of genes and the gene although the genes seem to contain chiefly dynamic factors of a certain behavior they have a tremendous importance also for the arrangement of society the titan tool in as much as it appears naturally before it appears you cannot study it but in as much as it appears it has certain qualities it has a certain character and that needs must depend upon the elements born in the child so factors determining human behavior are born with the child and determine its further development now that is one side of the picture the other side of the picture is the individual lives in connection with others in certain definite surroundings that will influence the giving combination of qualities and that is now also a very complicated factor because the environmental influences are not merely personal amount of objective factors the general social conditions laws convictions ways of looking at things of dealing with things now these things are not of a object they are historical there are historical reasons why things are so and as there are historical reasons for the qualities of the psyche that is formed there is such a thing as the history of the man's evolution in in the past years and that shows that real understanding of the psyche must consist in the investigation of the history of the human race history of the mind for instance as of the biological factors biological data so when i wrote my first book concerning the psychology of the unconscious i already had formed a certain idea of the nature of the unconscious to me it was then a living remnant of the original history of man living in his surroundings a very complicated picture and my material and my ex empirical material was formed chiefly by lunatics by the cases of schizophrenia and there i have observed that there are briefly in the beginning of a disease invasions of fantasies into cultural life fantasies of an entirely unexpected sort most bewildering to the patient he gets quite confused by these ideas and he gets into a sort of panic because he never before has thoughts thought such things that they are quite strange to him and equally strange to his his physician is equally confounded by the peculiar character of those fantasies and therefore one says that man is crazy yeah crazy such things such as so as a alienist i i thought it to be really the task for psychiatry to elucidate that thing that broke into consciousness these voices these delusions and in those days that is more than 40 years ago or almost 15 years ago i had no hope to be able to treat these cases or to be able to help them but i had a very of scientific curiosity and i wanted to know what these things really were because i thought that is these things have had a system development merely chaotic decayed material because there was too too much sense in those fantasies so what i did then was i studied cases of psychogenic uh diseases like hysteria this is some numberless and such things where the content has came from the unconscious where in a readable condition in understandable condition and then i saw that in contrary distinction to the schizophrenics the mental contents of hysterics were of a humanly understandable character that there were even elaborate dramatic suggestive insinuating um someone could make out a second personality now this is not the face of schizophrenia there are the fantasies on the contrary are unsystematic the faces complicated nature now i i knew of psychopathic cases just in between the balance between future virginia and hysteria where ideas came up delusions that were not exactly hysterical because they were singularly difficult to understand it was sort of strange strange eruptions and and i thought that these these cases could give me a better understanding so i took the opportunity when professor flora the old professor of psychology and philosophy at the university of geneva when he published the case of an american girl who had bestowed upon him a series of half poetic and romantic fantasies he published these that material without commenting on he gave us an example of creative imagination now when i read those fantasies i saw this is exactly the material um and i was always a bit afraid when i uh that people when i tell of my personal experiences with patients that i will say oh this is a really suggestion you know i took that case because i actually had no hand in it it was all professor who an authority he was a friend of william james uh i knew him personally very very fine old man and he uh he certainly wouldn't be accused of that right or for uh having influenced the patient and that is the reason why i analyzed these fantasies and that they became then that case became the object of the whole book called the psychology of cultures it is called now symbolism of transformation and i have revised it after 40 years did it because it was in the first the first attempt and there i i tried to show that the there is a sort of unconscious i then simply called it the unconscious that clearly produces things which are historical and not personal yes it was mythological material of the nature of which was it understood neither by brothers nor by the patient and and there i try for the first time to produce a picture of the functioning of the unconscious functioning which allowed certain conclusions as to the nature of the unconscious then after i had written that book that cost me my friendship with foreign because you couldn't accept it during the unconscious was a product of consciousness yeah and it simply contained the remnants i mean it was a sort of of a storm where all the discarded things of consciousness were and left and but to me the unconscious then was already a matrix a sort of basis of consciousness of a creative nature namely the taper of autonomous acts or autonomous intrusions into consciousness other developers i took the existence of the unconscious for a real fact for a real autonomous factor capable of independent action yes and now that was a problem a psychological problem of the very first order and that made me think and furiously because the whole of philosophy of our base has not yet recognized this fact that we have a counter actor in our own cultures that in our society there are two consciousness is one factor and there is another factor equally important that is the unconscious that can interfere with consciousness anytime it pieces and of course i i say to myself now this is very uncomfortable because i think i am the only master in my house but i i must have admitted that there is another somebody in that house that can play tricks and i had to deal with the unfortunate victims of that interference every day in my patients so the next thing i wrote was in 1980 mainly a disposition about the relation between the ego and the unconscious where i tried to formulate the experiences that are more or less regularly observable in cases where a consciousness is exposed to unconscious doctors or interferences or intrusions the where the unconscious is considered as an autonomous factor that has to be taken seriously uh where one cannot doesn't say anymore or undervalue the unconscious by assuming it is nothing but a discovered regiment of consciousness it is a factor in its own dignity and under the very important factor because it has created the most horrible disturbances now when i that was a pamphlet i wrote i was publicly friendship and nobody understood it i saw that the reason why nobody understands it is that while nobody has a similar experience because the the question hasn't been pursued to such an end namely that one has taken the unconscious seriously and considered it as a real factor that can determine a human behavior to a very considerable degree you think that the humanities are important for the individual who wants to study the individual one doesn't see what an education without humanity he loses the connection with uh with his family as it were that means with this the whole stem the tribe with the connection to the past that he lives in that in which man always has a man has always lived in the midst and we think we are able to be born today and to live alone in without history because that is a disease that's absolutely abnormal because man is not born every day he's once born in in a specific historical setting with his specific historical qualities and therefore he's only complete when he has a relationship to these things as if you were born without eyes and ears when you are born when you are growing up with no connection with the past probably natural with the sample of natural science you need no connection with the task you can and that is that is a a mutilation of of the human being now i saw from a practical experience that uh so i can tell you such a case young jewish girl and she the father was and then i i went further into her history and found out that her grandfather had been assadic in galicia and when i knew that i knew the whole story that girl suffered from a phobia the genetic phobia has been in psychology treatment already with no effect and it was really badly played by that phobia the exciting stage also and and then i saw that girl has lost the connection with the past has lost for instance the fact that her grandfather was assad that he lived in the mix and the father was out has fallen out of this too so i i simply told her is you know the effect was that within a week she was cured from from so many years of five and six years because i went like a lighting for her i only could say because i knew that that she is absolutely lost she thought she was in the middle of things but she was not gone not made no sense what is our existence you know when you when when we are just average numbers you know the more you you make people to average numbers the more you uh you destroy our society the ideal state senate slave state then you have to go to russia there is wonderful there it can be a number but the one place is plenty of cases of a similar kind and that hasn't naturally led me onto a profound study of the architecture so professor jung so you began to see in a sense your typologies led to a sort of a theory of the psychology of opposites that the conscious would reveal one side of a type and the unconscious would be the other side yeah this would be a very important way that of helping you to analyze and understand the individual oh yeah quite a proper practical point of view quite important well the point i wanted to elucidate is you know in in analyzing a patient you make typical experiences namely there is a sort of typical way in which the integration of consciousness takes place namely the average way is that [Music] through the analysis of dreams for instance you become acquainted with the contents of your cultures i also told you this to begin with all personal material yeah um questions the questions of the individual's difficulties in adapting to environmental conditions and so on now it is a regular observation that when you talk to an individual and this individual gives you insight into its inner preoccupations interests emotions the other words hands over his personal complexes then you get slowly and really really into the situation of a of a sort of authority a point of you become a point of reference you know you are in possession of all the important items in a in a person's development i remember for instance i analyzed a very well-known american politician and he told me oh any amount of the secrets of his trade and uh and suddenly he jumped up and said thank god what have i done you know you you you get a million dollars for what i have told you now you can sleep in peace i shall not betray you i forget it within a fortnight now you think that shows that the things people hand out are not merely different things when it comes to something important emotionally important then they hand out themselves they hand out a big emotional uh value as if they were handing over a lot of some as if they were trusting you with with the administration of their estate yes uh it would give me if i should have any blackmailing tendencies uh unlimited power to the blackmailing now you see that creates an emotional relationship to the enemies and that is what i call the platform yeah which is a central problem of it is just so as if these people had handed out the their whole existence and that can have very peculiar effects upon the individual either they hate you for it or they love you for it but you are not a different to them and there is then a sort of emotional relation between the patient and the doctor now you know when you hand out such materials when you this contents are associated with all the important persons in the life of a patient now the most important persons are usually programmed that concept from childhood the first others are obviously paraphernalia so in handing over your infantile memories about the father or about the murder you hand over order the image of god then it is just as if the doctor had taken the place of the father even of the mother i had quite a number of male patients that called me mother you because i handed over the yeah yeah enough yeah but you see that's quite irrespective irrespective of the personality of the of the analysts the vicinity is regarded he functions as if you are the mother or the father of central authority and now that is what one called strength that is an allusion to the evolved superstitious idea of handing over a disease transferring a disease upon an animal or handing over the sin upon escape code and escape rotates it out into the face of to make it disappear so they hand over themselves in the hope that i can swallow that stuff and digest falsehood and so i'm in the window in in this and have a high authority naturally i'm also persecuted by it because of the resistances but all the manifold the emotional reactions they have had against their hands now that is the stuff you have to work through first in analyzing the situation because the patient researcher position is not foreign upon the doctor like a patient with an open abdomen on the operation table in the hands of the surgeon better or worse so the thing must be finished and so we have to work through that condition in the hope that we arrive on a in a situation where the patient is able to see that i'm not the father or not the mother that i am an ordinary human being now everybody naturally should assume that such a thing would be possible for the fact that the patient could arrive at such an insight when he's not a complete people that i am just not that emotional figure of their fantasies but that is very often not the case so i had a case that was an intelligent uh young woman she was a student of philosophy very good mind where what could expect usually that you will see that i but she was actually unable to to get out of this delusion and it's such in such a case what uh one always had recourse to the dreams one this just as people would ask the unconscious now what do you say to such a condition you see she i know you are not says father but i just feel like that it is like that i depend upon you and understand what the unconscious is which i really assumed a very pure as a role you know uh she was a little infant she was sitting on my knees i have elder in my arms i was a very tender part of the little girl you know and and more and more their base became impacted in that respect namely that i was a sort of child and she is a very little really human thing you know and quite a little girl in the hands of an enormous being and the last thing of that series was i cannot tell you all the things there was that i was out in nature i stood in a field of wheat in a normal piece of wheat that was right per house i love the time and i held her in my arm like a baby and the wind was blowing over that field of wind now you know when the wind is blowing over we feel these waves here and with these waves i swayed like that i'm putting her as if it were to sleep you know and she felt uh as being in the arms of a board of of the quartet now the harvest inside and i must tell her and i told her this is what you want and what you project into me because you are not conscious of it is you you have the idea of a living you don't possess therefore you see the need that because you know she had a rather intense religious education of course it all vanished later on and something disappeared from her world the world became nearly personal and under the that religious conception of the world was non-existent at home but you see the idea of a deity is not an intellectual idea it is an archetype it's an archetype line here therefore you you find it practically everywhere on the vessel or another name you know even if it has the name mana it is it is an all the powerful extraordinary effect of quality even if you know at all and so she certainly became aware of an entirely healing image that comes fresh from the archetype she had not the idea of a christian god or old testament here they it was a humanist god you see a god of nature of vegetation he was the weak insulting the spirit of the weak the spirit of the wind and she was in the arms of that human no now that is the living experience of an archetype now that made a tremendous impression from that girl and instantly it clicked she saw what she really was missing that missing value that that was was in the form of a protection in myself and made myself indispensable to her and then she said this nothing's expensive because it is a supremacy she is in the arms of that archetypal idea now that is a luminous experience and and that is the thing that people are looking for an archetypal experience that gives them uh an incorruptible value you see they depend upon other conditions that depend upon these their desires their issues depend upon other people because they have no value in themselves they have nothing in themselves they are only rational and and they are not in the possession of a title that would make them independent but when that girl can hold that experience then she doesn't depend anymore he cannot defend anymore because that value is in herself and and that is a sort of preparation and that is of course it makes her complete you know in as much as he can realize such a luminous experience she is able to continue her part her way her individuation the acorn can become an oak and another she will become that which is from the beginning now having seen such cases in quite a number of such places that of course has given me a motive to the archetypes because i began to see that the structure of what i proclaim for the collective composures is really a sort of acclimation of such technical images of which each has a numerous quality you know the archetypes are at the same time dynamic they are instinctual images that are not intellectually invented they are always there and they produce certain um processes in the unconscious the one would best compare with that's the origin of mythology now having seen such cases quite a number of successes that of course has given me a motive to destroy the archetypes because i began to see that the structure of what i prepared for the collective composures is really a sort of accommodation of such technical images which each has a numerous quality you know the archetypes are at the same time dynamic they are instinctual images that are not intellectually invented they are always there and they produce certain processes in the unconscious the one would best compare with this that's the origin of mythology mythology is a pronouncing of series of images that formulate the life of architects so the statements of every religion of many poets and so on are statements about the inner mythological process which is a necessity because man is not complete if he is not conscious of uh that aspect of things it's always a man is not complete when he lives in a world of statistical truth he must live in a world of this biological truth but this is biological that is not merely statistics it is the expression of what he really is as what he feels himself so he's somebody without the mythology is merely an effect of statistics as it were phenomenal and while the truth is the carriers of life are individuals not average numbers yet our natural science makes everything to an average reduces everything to an average and of course all the individual policies are wiped out that of course is most unbecoming it is it is unhygienic it deprives people of their specific values where they are individually it takes to deprive them of the most important experiences of their life where they experience their own values they creative background of their personality now zenith obviously that nobody understands these things so that's quite quite strange do you think that the humanities are important for the individual who wants to study the individual one doesn't seem what an education without humanity humans with his family as it were that means with this the whole stem the tribe the connection to the past that he lives in that in which man always has a man has always lived in the midst and we think we are able to be born today and to live in a disease that's absolutely abnormal because man is not born every day he's once born in in a specific historical setting with the specific historical qualities and therefore he is only complete when he has a relationship to these things just as if you were formed without eyes and ears when you are when you are growing up with no connection with the past probably natural with the sample of natural science you need no connection with the past you can write it out and that is that is a mutilation of of the human being now i saw from a battle that this kind of perceiving i had the most exposure so i can tell you such a case a young jewish girl and she the father was a banker and she had received the entire world education and she had no idea of any tradition also and then i i went further into her history and found out that her grandfather had been assad in galicia and when i knew that i knew the whole story that girl suffered from and then i saw that girl has lost the connection with the past has lost for instance the fact that her grandfather was society that he lived in the mix and her father was out has fallen out of this too so i i simply told her you will stand up your fears you know what you have lost my business i said your fear is the fear of your way you know the effect thought that within a week she was cured from from so many years of fat and sick because i went like a lighting for her i really could say because i knew that that he is absolutely lost he thought he was in the middle of things but he was not gone not made no sense what is this our existence you know when when we are just average numbers you know the more you you make people to average numbers the more you you destroy our society the ideal states that our whole life goes into places of a similar kind and that hasn't actually led me onto a profound study of the because more respectful or architecture but now by you know nothing should be taken into account that is an enormous factor very important for for our further development and for our well-being now in i it was of course difficult to know where to begin because this is such a normally extended field and the the next uh question i asked myself was now where in where in the world has anybody been busy with that problem and about nobody except a peculiar uh spiritual movement uh that went together with the beginnings of christianity namely the gnostics and that was the first thing i've said in that they were concerned with the problem of archetypes and made a victory of the loss of therapy as ever as makes a picture of philosophy if you believe cocktails is naively and doesn't know that those are structural elements of the uncultured society nowadays they have lived in the uh i'm not confronted by the importance of the collective cultures which were then the same in 2000 years ago and we are not required to meet that problem i was always looking for for somebody in between you know something that linked at the most part with the present moment and i found to my amazement it is alchemy that is uh to be a history of chemistry if this one could always say nothing less than that it is moon spiritual movement of philosophical news that called this out philosophers like narcissism and then i i read the whole accessible without you overlapping and great services because of the normal interest it is the mental work of 1700 years in which there is stored up uh all they could make out about the nature of the archetypes uh in a peculiar way since the middle ages the last editions of in the in the middle or end of the 16th century and under the subjects of our interview another few very important ones now uh that has given me no no end of work but the result was most satisfactory because it showed me the development of our unconscious relations to the collective of cultures and the variations uh our consciousness has undergone while and we've got to understand these things it's just a show as a terrific epidemic of typhoid fever the breaking out and they say now this is tight for a fever isn't that a marvelous news he can take on in all these dimensions and nobody knows anything about it nobody takes care of the or the the water supply nobody the things of of examining the meat or something like that what's interesting this a phenomenon yes but what does it understand and to me of course it was an enormous problem because it is a factor that has determined the faith of millions of european people and of americans nobody can deny that he has been influenced by by the wall that is all it was doing and that's all psychology our fully psychology but you only come to an understanding of these things when you understand the background yeah from which it springs so of course i cannot tell you in detail about about ultimately it is the the basis of our modern way of perceiving things and therefore it is as if it were right under the threshold of torturousness this a wonderful picture of how the development of archetypes that means the movement of archetypes looks when you look upon them as they form above maybe from today you look back into the past and you see how the present moment has evolved out of the past and this is as if the archaic philosophy it sounds very curious you should give it a mentality for me it has a different philosophy of course that conveys just the favorites of the terrible alchemy it is the parallel development as narcissism was to the conscious development say of christianity of our christian philosophy of the whole psychology of the middle ages and so you see in our days we have certain such view of the world such as such a philosophy but in your country we have a different one and that we can see through the example of the alchemist philosophy that behaves towards the medieval consciousness exactly like the unconscious beliefs to ourselves and we can construct or even predict our uh the approaches of our days when we know what it has been yesterday now that is in a with a few words the development of my ideas i i'm sorry [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] 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Channel: Ambience For The Soul

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Keywords: carl jung, carl jung interview, carl jung archetypes, ambienceforthesoul, psychology, psychology lecture, sleep, dormir, relax, meditate

Id: LIPqPmGFW8c

Length: 212min 30sec (12750 seconds)

Published: Mon May 16 2022