Exclusive: Apple CEO Tim Cook Sits Down With David Muir (Extended Interview) | ABC News

Tim thanks for doing this it's good to be here thanks coming thanks for having us in your office I don't think we've ever done an interview in your office before I'm not sure I've ever done an interview in the office well I know this is an important issue so we'll dive right in thank you as we sit here you know some of the families of the victims in San Bernardino have now come out in support of the judge's order that Apple helped the FBI unlock that iPhone one family reportedly saying were angry and confused as to why Apple is refusing to do this what would you say to those families tonight David they have our deepest sympathy what they've been through no one should have to go through Apple has cooperated with the FBI fully in this case they came to us and asked us for all the information we had on this phone and we gave everything that we had we went further than that and volunteered engineers to help them and gave them numerous suggestions about how they might learn more about this particular case but this case is not about my phone this case is about the future what what is at stake here is can the government compel Apple to write software that we believe would make hundreds of millions of customers vulnerable around the world including the US and also trample civil liberties that are at the basic foundation of what this country was made on and you have to write that system in order to unlock that phone yes yes this is so we have no more information about this phone the only way to get information at least currently the only way we know would be to write a piece of software that we view as sort of the software equivalent of cancer we think it's bad news to write we would never write it we have never written it and that is what is at stake here you're aware of the polling on this the Pew poll this week that showed 51 percent of Americans say Apple should unlock the phone the new Reuters poll just today showing nearly half understand where you're coming from but this is clearly a country divided on this what do you say to the folks who say you should write that software you should help unlock the phone well this this is not about a poll this is about the future and what I have seen is people understand what is it stay here an increasing number support us we've have we have support from politicians to the ones that grab me the most I have gotten thousands of emails since this occurred and the largest single category people are from the military these are men and women who fight for our freedom and our liberty and they want us to stand up and be counted on this issue for them are you reading those letters those emails every day I'm reading every one of them they are very heartfelt and very emotional this is this is our country this country is about life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness it's about freedom of expression and freedom of speech these are core principles of America the FBI though says it believes that syed farook use that phone to communicate with his wife is accomplice and i'm curious do you struggle at all with the possibility that there could be information on that phone that could reveal other plots other people who were involved in planning the San Bernardino attack David if we knew a way to get the information on the phone that we haven't already given if we knew a way to do this that would not expose hundreds of millions of other people to issues we would obviously do it but again this is not about one phone this is about the future but the central question and I'm curious does it keep you up could this phone potentially save lives and prevent another terrorist attack the information on it we don't know that there's any information on the phone we don't know whether there is or there isn't and the FBI doesn't know whether there is or there isn't what we do know is we passed all of the information that we had on the phone and to get additional information on it or at least what the FBI would like us to do now would expose hundreds of millions of people to issues I want to get to what the FBI director James Comey has said he said it's not about a slippery slope it's about quote 14 people who were slaughtered and many more had their lives ruined maybe the phone holds the clue to finding more terrorists maybe it doesn't but we can't look the survivors in the eye and ourselves if we don't follow any possible lead out there do you understand where he's coming from I do understand where he's coming from and this is a incredibly complex issue but but it is about the future think about this if if a court compels Apple to write this piece of software then we then to place a backdoor in the iPhone we believe it does put hundreds of millions of customers at risk in addition if a court can ask us to write this piece of software think about what else they could ask us to write maybe it's an operating system for surveillance maybe it's the ability for the law enforcement to turn on the camera I mean I don't know where this stops but I do know that this is not this is not what should be happening in this country this is not what should be having in America if there should be a law that compels us to do it it should be passed out in the open and the people of America should get a voice in that the right place for that debate to occur is in Congress but you speak of that backdoor Tim and John Miller the head of counterterrorism New York City Police Department has said if an executive at Apple had a member of their family kidnapped they would have their best engineers working on opening that phone and it would have been done in a very short amount of time is that fair no the David it's not like we have information on this phone in the next office over we have no other information on this phone none the only way we know to get additional information is to write a piece of software that is the software equivalent of cancer that is what is it state here let me ask you this you've invited me to Apple before the stories are legendary about new products with black drapery over them the locked doors to secrecy and any American company can keep a secret it's Apple to those who might say why didn't the FBI and Apple team up far earlier in one of those secret labs and get this done and no one would have ever had to know about it well I can't talk about the tactics of the FBI they've chosen what they've done and they've chosen to do this out in the public for for whatever reasons that they have what we think at this given it is out in public is that we need to stand tall and stand tall on principle we our job is to protect our customers and our customers have incredibly detailed information on their phones there's probably more information about you on your phone than there is in your house our smartphones are loaded with our intimate conversations our financial data our health records they're also loaded with the location of our kids in many cases and so it's not just about privacy but it's also about public safety no one would want this kind of information to be available no one no one I don't believe would want a master key build that would turn hundreds of millions of locks even if that key were in the possession of the person that you trust the most that key can be stolen that is what this is about so there's no question you are concerned about a slippery slope about a precedent that would be set if you did this it David it's clear that it would be a precedent the New York law enforcement is already talking about having a hundred and seventy-five phones there other counties across the United States are talking about phones they have and so it is a slippery slope I don't fear it it is one if you didn't think this would set a precedent if you if you didn't believe this would be a slippery slope is this something your engineers could do and how quickly could they do it we've never done it before so I don't know how long it would take would I do it in a perfect world where none of the implications that I'm talking about exist yes we would do it we would obviously do it but we don't live in a perfect world if you if you look at hacking many Americans hundreds of millions of Americans last year had their credit card stolen I mean this is a it's a travesty but it's just not that it's also the location of their family members there's so much information on a phone that goes beyond economics and privacy it is also public safety and so I know people like to frame this argument is privacy versus national security that is overly simplistic and it is not true this is also about public safety the smartphone that you carry has more information about you on it than probably any other singular device or any other singular place so this is about protecting the safety of the people who carry those iPhones that's exactly right and by the way if and it's probably just not I phone because if the government could order Apple to create such a piece of software it could be ordered for anyone else as well let me doesn't stop here did you have conversations with the FBI early on about helping them find ways to get at that information without having to break into the phone we we gave significant advice to them as a matter of fact one of the things that we suggested was take the phone to a network that it would be familiar with which is generally the home plug it in power it on leave it overnight and so so that it would backup and so that you'd have a current back up the phone backs up to the iCloud back to the iCloud which makes a you can think of it as making a picture of almost everything on the phone not everything but almost everything did they do that unfortunately in the days the early days of the investigation an FBI FBI directed the county to reset the iCloud password when that is done the phone will no longer backup to the cloud and so I wish they would have contacted us earlier so that that would not have been the case how crucial was that missed opportunity you know it's assuming the cloud backup was still on and there's no reason to believe that it wasn't then it is very crucial the FBI has acknowledged that they changed the Apple ID on the phone and and therefore miss the opportunity to sync up with the iCloud but it's their contention that there is still information data on the phone the iPhone that they have in their hands is that possible there would be information on the phone sure there's some information on the phone I don't know what it is the kinds of things that you would be able to find out from other places are what calls were made where were they made to we're messages sent across the cellular network all of this kind of information is available without going into the phone could there be additional information on the phone maybe maybe yes maybe no I don't know and even the FBI has acknowledged they're not sure yes I think I think in that kid that area there is no dispute to some people at home listening to this argument who understand where you're coming from who might say this was a terrorist attack on US soil and that if ever there was a case that Apple would make some sort of exception that this might be that moment do you really want to plant the flag on privacy and safety on Syed Farook psiphon I think safety of the public is incredibly important safety of our kids safety of our families is very important the protection of people's data is incredibly important and so the trade-off here is we know that doing this could expose people to incredible vulnerabilities this is not something that we would create this is this would be bad for America it would also set a precedent that I believe many people in America would be offended by and so when you think about those which are knowns compared to something that might be there I believe we are making the right choice but in your quiet moments do you have any concern that you might be able to prevent a terrorist attack by breaking into that phone David some things are hard and some things are right and some things are both this is one of those things and in this case you believe there are some things that just should never be created correct I mean think about this it is in our view the software equivalent of cancer is this something that should be created technology can can do so many things but there are many things technology should never be allowed to do and the way you not allow it is to not create it the White House said this week that the FBI's request is quote limited in scope limited in scope do you agree with that and have you talked to the President on this I have not talked to the president I will talk to the president do I think it's limited no I think this is not about this phone this is about the future and so I do see it as it as a precedent that should not be done in this country or any country just this this is about civil liberties and is about people's ability to protect themselves if we take encryption away from the good people the only people or we take a Shin away the only people that will be affected are the good people not the bad people encryption Apple doesn't own encryption encryption is readily available in every country in the world as a matter of fact the US government sponsors and funds encryption in many cases and so if we limit it in some way the people that will hurt are the good people not the bad people they will find it anyway you mentioned that you would be talking with the president what we tell him I'm going to try to make the arguments that I've made to you and ask for his help in getting this on a better path because I strongly believe that the best of America comes out when we do all come together but when you see gridlock in Washington are you convinced that this is a kind of issue they can tackle right now I hope so in optimistically I think so because people care deeply about civil liberties in Washington they care deeply about safety they care deeply about national security so all of these issues are things that all of us care about and and so yeah I do believe that you have talked to the president before on these issues yeah privacy and security are you disappointed there wasn't more of a dialogue with the administration before this swift action from the Justice Department yes you wish there was more done yes and I think there should have been with this filing we found out about the filing from the press and I don't think that's the way the railroad should be run and I don't think that something so important to this country should be handled in this way let me ask you you brought up encryption and I think that's a really important point for the people at home to understand the evolution of encryption with the iPhone you had a previous operating system with the iPhone where law enforcement authorities have pointed out they could extract the data from the phone they can no longer do that and that was a conscious decision by Apple was it not it was if you look at the last few years hacking has become increasingly commonplace it is very difficult to secure data and the everyday person can't do it they look for Apple to help them do it I mean you can you need to look no further than the government which has had some of the worst breaches of all in this case and so yes security gets better with every software release that we have encryption gets more advanced it has to to stay one step ahead of the bad guy so it's not a mistake that we can't get into Syed Farook phone it's we're not we didn't do it for that reason David we did it to protect our customers but yes a side effect is it means that Apple can't get into it either because think of it like this if you put a door in a house it's a lot easier to get in that house it doesn't matter whether it's locked or not you can get somebody can get in that and so our simple view is you encrypt end-to-end and you don't keep a key and so the people that can see communications are the people on either end of that communication but let's stick with that metaphor and to the people who say we want just a door to this house Syed Farook psiphon is that possible no there's no such thing as a backdoor for the good guys the bad guys will find it - meaning your concern is for the millions of customers who walk around with their own data their family's data on their phones yes I am and in keep in mind this data includes the location of their kids the location of their families this isn't just about privacy although it's very important it's also about public safety you're aware of the people watching this who understand your argument but who say in this case this was a terrorists iPhone what would you say David we have no sympathy for terrorists that in my view they left their rights back when they decided to do awful things way in the planning stage but this isn't about we're not protecting their privacy we're protecting the privacy of everyone else we're protecting the public safety of everyone else that is what this is about if they left their rights at the door why not break into their phone then because of doing that exposes everyone else that is the reason developing that piece of software develops a piece of software that is so powerful that has the ability to unlock the capability unlock other iPhones that is the issue because your argument is that masterkey can't then be thrown out you it's not like a physical key a physical key you could shred the software key and of course with other parts of the government asking for more and more cases in more and more cases that software would stay living and it would be turning the crank and you can imagine the target that would be on that that that piece I'm not saying government would abuse it I don't I don't agree that going case-by-case is the right approach but there's a lot of bad guys in the world and you don't need to look further than what has happened to our own government millions of people have had their it personal information stolen by hackers as you know this has become an issue in the race for president Donald Trump is calling for a boycott of Apple until quote Tim Cook unlocks that phone Trump adding that the phone is owned by the government by San Bernardino County does he have a point here you know David in a few weeks Apple will turn 40 Apple could have only been started in America we've created 1.9 million jobs now in the United States and we have tens of millions of customers who use our products we work for them and we love deeply our country but what what's at stake here is should we be compelled to write software that we believe would make vulnerable hundreds of millions of people and trample on civil liberties that is what is it stay and the heartwarming emails I'm getting from military from policemen from all across America tells me there's a fair number of people that believe as we do and even the people that don't believe that in our democracy this should be out in the open and discussed not under some kind of you know done in the back room somewhere but you hear that from the Republican frontrunner from Donald Trump boycott Apple until Tim Cook unlocks the phone a lot of presidential candidates have been asked how will they how will they talk with the tech community about protecting this country is that the right route in saying boycott Apple the best thing David is America is strongest when we all come together and so there are great people in the FBI and the DOJ and in government incredible public service there's also some really smart people in technology and there's some really great people focused on civil liberties all of these groups need to come together we've recommended a commission I would be okay with it being called something else are done in a different way but the key is for all of the key people to come together and really think through these issues but not just look at one look at all of them and recognize that at the core of this are some of the founding principles of our country which we should be taking a huge pause to trample on so is a boycott a way to come together you know I think a democracy is messy sometimes but this this is I love democracy that is who we are I think the best thing to do to discuss and collaborate and work together on whatever the solution may be help people at home understand what you mean when you say the FBI wants you to create a separate system that would get you into that phone right now they have they have an iPhone the passcode on the front like we all use to get into our iPhones and after a certain number of tries it just Auto erases the phone what they want is they want us to develop a new operating system that takes out the security precautions including the precaution that after 10 tries if somebody has set erase all data after 10 they want that to not be in there and then they want a ability to go through a number of passwords at the speed of a modern computer a computer would do that a computer would do that and so that is what they're asking for we believe that is a very dangerous operating system because once people know that that exists you say it's out of the bag yeah think about this for a minute if you knew or it not you but if the one of the bad guys knew that that existed think about the target that is everybody would want that operating system because you could get in it has the potential to get into any iPhone this is not something that should be created which takes me back to that question about middle ground was there an opportunity missed where Apple could have quietly met with the FBI behind closed doors in one of your many labs here Apple being the best at keeping secrets around to have come up with a solution long before this moment we David we continue to look for things in this case we're not giving up what we're what we're objecting to is building something that's bad for people is there an opportunity I think it's I think the best things will happen when people work together the best way to know what was on this phone would have been to have the cloud backup that is the best way and unfortunately an error was and that is it possible have you been surprised by how Swift the action has been from the Justice Department given your previous dialogue with this administration yes I was surprised that we weren't contacted and I bet I wasn't contacted personally and told they were doing this would it have changed the outcome I don't know I I don't know but I think if you and I are working together for a long time and I've decided to to file a lawsuit on you I feel like I owe it to you to tell you in advance you personally and that didn't happen here and I'm disappointed with it however it doesn't affect our willingness and desire and desire to cooperate fully to discuss the future but we shouldn't be but I do want them to withdraw this case because this case is bad for America and how will you answer the order this week we will answer and say why we object and will we will await the court's decision there is reporting that writing computer code the code that it would take to create this system to get into that phone should be protected under the First Amendment is that part of the case that's up to the lawyers honestly it's not at the primary it's not my primary focus my primary focus is as I've said before is on the customers that would then be vulnerable and the trampling on civil liberties that is my focus I'm curious Tim did you ever think that you find yourself at the center of such a crucial national debate no this is this is not a position that we would like to be in it is a very uncomfortable position to oppose your government on something doesn't feel good and to oppose it on something where we are advocating for civil liberties which they are supposed to protect it is incredibly ironic but this is where we find ourselves and for also for all of those people who want to have a voice but they're afraid we are standing up and we are standing up for our customers because protecting them we view is our job and and I hope and I think I'm very optimistic I think we will come together and I don't I don't know what will happen but I think we will come together and there will be one one path forward the u.s. always comes out of these things well and but but I feel very good that the debate is going on even when people disagree with us it is good that the debate is happening that's what makes this country so special and for you personally as it's been the biggest challenge in being CEO level that you faced I faced a lot of challenges but I've never felt sort of the government apparatus before and and so yes I would say this is right up there but it's not my sole focus by any means we're focused on on making great problems and I heard you say there is great hope still that you can come together on this you don't know how it will happen but you hope it will happen but are you prepared to take this all the way to the Supreme Court we would be prepared to take this issue all the way yes because I think it's that important for America this should not be decided court by court by Court if you decide that it's okay to force a company to do something that they think is bad for hundreds of millions of people then you think about this for a minute in this case is an awful case there is no worse case than this case but there may be a judge in a different district that feels that this case should apply to a divorce case there may be one in the next state over that thinks it should apply in a tax case another state over it might should apply in a robbery so you begin to say wait a minute this isn't how this should happen if there is going to be a law then it should be done out in the open for people so their voices are heard through their representatives in Congress and if Congress decided that there's this small category this was a terrorists iPhone if Congress decided that if the American people signed off on that you'd entertain it it let me be clear at the end of the day we have to follow the law just like everybody else we have to follow the law what what is going on right now is we're getting we're having our voices be heard and I would encourage everyone that has a voice on here to our that wants to have a voice and wants to have an opinion to make sure their voice is heard that's why we're here today thanks David Tim Connolly appreciate thank you for your candor thank you you

Channel: ABC News

Views: 218,101

Keywords: Apple, CEO, Tim Cook, David Muir, interview, full interview, extended, security, iPhone, terrorism, privacy, unlock, FBI, Syed Farook, technology, Tim Cook interview, software

Id: tGqLTFv7v7c

Length: 29min 52sec (1792 seconds)

Published: Fri Feb 26 2016