Ex-Scientologist reveals the TRUTH about scientology & Tom Cruise | OTE Podcast #155

don't take that personality test even if you think it's a joke i've seen people that know it's a joke get locked in that room have their ruin found and sign up for a course dude i've seen it many many times it's not something to [ __ ] with [Music] tell me doug scott kramer welcome to on the edge with andrew gold i want to hear about um some of your story tell us who you are and and a bit about your background sure i assume that we're talking about um the main feature of my life which was growing up at a cult called scientology so um i mean i do other things i'm not just an ex-scientologist but that had a massive massive impact and it was the through line for my existence if you want to hear the story real quick i can give you a quick background on how my father got into it and sort of uh the quick timeline so people know who the hell i am and what what we're talking about is that okay let's do it yeah okay so around nine years of age my father um who was a normal guy we had a normal family and he went down to work one day and he saw an ad um at the bottom of a newspaper that said dianetics it said learn how to communicate better or fix your family problems these um these buttons as they call it in scientology that would that people would respond to and since my dad kind of has is a bit of an introvert and has had difficulty communicating with us um in general he that registered so he went down to what was called the mission scientology had missions back in the day this is in ventura california about 15 minutes away from where he worked so long story short and we can get into what happened to him that day he came back to our house with what i describe if a person in the military has been traumatized maybe they have uh complex post-traumatic stress disorder and they come back with a thousand-yard stare or the hundred yard stare um the blank look like nobody's home so my dad came home with that look in his eye started talking in a strange way and said to my mother i need to borrow a fairly large sum of money from my brother because we didn't have a lot of money at the time to do this new thing that i just discovered called scientology my mom freaked out i didn't know what was going on what they were arguing for a few weeks and long story short it was either going to cause a divorce possibly if my dad wasn't allowed to do it or my mom needs to go down and check it out so he can do it long story short she got sucked into it eventually and then they would double team me whenever i'd have problems in school i'd have problems with the girlfriend or whatever they were trained how to manipulate me to break me down and get me to go down to scientology now i hated scientology for the longest time i didn't know what it was we didn't have the internet so you couldn't google xenu i didn't know what it was i just knew the evil entered our house something was different about my dad my mom didn't like it all of our instincts said um something's bad here but like i said she didn't want to face possibly getting a divorce my dad insisted on doing this and um so she went with it because of that decision like i said me and my sister not fully but a decent amount i was the black sheet of the family so they worked on me the most but once scientology comes into someone's family it's a serious thing it's not a a church on sunday thing it's a whole life change so we all got sucked into that and since i what they would do is they would put me down i was i was the black sheep so i was doing typical teenage rebellion stuff nothing too bad but um i would get in trouble a lot so they would sit me down they would allow me to offload and open up and be honest with them and then at the very end and this happened many many times they would say do you want to be punished for like a few weeks or a month or because we believe it'll help you out can you just would you accept a course that we pay for a 50 course to go down to scientology that we believe will really help you out so i told them to go f themselves most of the time eventually i kind of went with it and it was the gradual seeds of indoctrination that were going in scientology makes a lot of sense at the beginning there's a lot of tricks and snags i want to be up front it's a con from the very beginning you're being put into a hypnotic trance with their drills and it's very very dangerous however initially before they hit you with the space opera and the stuff because it's boiling a frog in the water it's very slow it makes a hell of a lot of sense andrew so seed by sea this was going in i had a vulnerable point in my 20s and i took to it again i'm making a long story short so from around 20 to 33 i was a 100 manchurian candidate believer and dude they make manchurian candidates i'm not using that as a word to uh for effect i was in a different reality i totally believed it and even though i've been out 12 years now andrew i woke up in january 2008 because a concerned friend from my acting class dropped off a cult book called combating cult mind control by steve hassan and i was out of scientology in about 20 to 30 minutes reading that book but between even being out over 12 years now people don't understand man i know it looks stupid scientology looks stupid to me when i was a kid and it looks stupid to me now but the uh technology of how to brainwash someone is in all these cults and scientology happens to have the most comprehensive package of mind control techniques i think of most of the cults so it's very weird even today realizing that that wasn't true i know it wasn't true but dude i'm telling you when you're in that truman show and they hypnotize you it's just as believable as real reality all the stupid stuff that we believed in you should clarify what for those who haven't seen the movie um and i imagine it was a book what the manchurian candidate was and what you know what it what it what that feels like to be in it so hard to describe but well it's based on um you know there's there's the famous movie that people know about um and there's also a movie called telephone t-e-l-e-f-o-n i believe where they uh you know in the um 50s 60s and 70s they they had project mk ultra where the intelligence agencies and the cia this is all documented this is not conspiracy theory i'm sure you would you know that but they were trying to basically um use hypnose pain drug and hypnosis was l ron hubbard called it when we were in the cult because he was trying to expose it while simultaneously taking that technology and doing the same thing to us so in the 40s 50s and 60s um i don't want to get too deep into this but you're asking about the manchurian candidates so that takes us back to operation paperclip and project mk ultra when they when the government the intelligence agencies were trying to make people that they could implant with suggestions using hypnosis and drugs and get them to kill to be a courier during times of war to deliver messages and not have any memory they have a whole bunch of sub projects that they created and tested on people in prisons um universities stanford university all over america canada and even in europe to test out if they could um control people in this way scientology is a take off of that andrew and it's hard to describe but i can tell you having lived it it absolutely can make you go against your own moral code people are you know i drives me nuts when people say you can never be hypnotized to do something against your own moral code you absolutely can and uh i would have died for i would i would have done everything that i did do everything that l ron hubbard told me i lived my life by that and no one was going to come along and take that away from me or peel me away from that belief system i would it made me believe so a long story short is a manchurian candidate even though they fictionalize it a bit in movies so that when you do come out and say hey i was a manchurian candidate in scientology it's just like oh you just watched too many movies no that was a real thing and they exaggerated and put it in movies and perhaps desensitize people from how serious that is and that's what that's what scientology does dude they make you into just like any cult you know you could take the children of god you could take the jehovah's witnesses it just basically is brainwashing that makes you absolutely dedicated to the cult leader and then the parents and everybody around you can't talk sense into you because you're subconsciously programmed where it's out of your own awareness so you can't see the mental prison and the mind prison that was created does that answer it at all yeah no it does absolutely i think what's really interesting about your particular experiences and what maybe runs counterintuitive to runs counter to how we might uh imagine being a cult if we haven't been is that when you were young i mean you were nine years old when your dad got into all this stuff you'd think that would be the point when you would be really into it but actually you were pushing against it even as a nine-year-old and then maybe in your twenties that would be when you're going oh none of this this can't be real but that was the moment where you really got into it like how how does it go that way round it is a trip k i look at myself as a case study because i don't know of any people that that's really happened to i'm sure it has but yeah um okay so here's what happened um i was i i've always been a right brain person meaning i wanted to be an artist i wanted to do something outside of the system popping out of the womb so that is kind of the the through line which got me into scientology brought me out to hollywood to do acting and stuff we could talk about that stuff later scientology had a ton of appeal to me even though i hated it because it takes you into an out out there kind of there's no limits so you're an all pa like you live past lives this life isn't all that there is there's these really heady concepts that are very attractive so even though i and there's a discipline in scientology which i was lacking which i liked so there's there's many things that i might still even though they have nothing to do with scientology i still entertain these concepts man i've always believed that there's more to reality than just what we're presented with i mean we're just basically bombarded constantly from the education system to the propaganda that hits us on the news it's very similar to what i went through in scientology so even though like like i said andrew i hated it because i it could feel just like my mother her motherly instincts told her that evil entered the family my dad changed he was like i said hypnotized of the dead eyes it was obvious that it was evil however if you're in that environment you know um i so i'd get punished every few weeks every few months and this would happen over i didn't take let's see my dad gonna do it at nine i gotta do it at 20. so there's about 11 years of every other month or whatever being in and around it and like i said the initial courses they have a whole thing called ethics technology where you can map out your life and do things exactly right um they have things they have all sorts of tools and they love bomb you and you're in an environment where everybody's trying to help you and then they show you this grade chart this bridge to total freedom which is every organization that says you're not just a flesh being there's all these different levels which will actually re you'll remember who you are and you'll be totally free and also l ron hubbard had a whole system that was already something that i was into popping out of the womb and that is consensus reality seems limited and l ron hubbard pushes the idea and pushes massive conspiracies that you're just more f the government f the schooling system you're more you're you know don't listen to authority so that was really attractive to me and a lot of people so i'm not saying everybody but they have a lot of dreamers people that think that there's more to life than just working a freaking nine to five job so that i think is what hooked me and other people and yeah my dad i that's interesting because my parents are very system left brain completely by the book people with the with mount scientology that would have created and did create a conflict in my family i was trying to kind of i wanted to move i knew what i wanted to do as a kid i wanted to be an actor and just to get out to hollywood to even begin that especially having scientology on my back which both helped and encouraged me and simultaneously was preventing me having all these elements going on it made it just difficult with um my mother and my father now my dad was in the navy and scientology is set up in a very militant way that mimics the navy they have sea org members that sign billion-year contracts that were these very intimidating uniforms that look exactly like the navy i think that's what hooked my dad because they have very you know l ron hubbard was in the navy he was probably an intelligence operative of some sort and he used techniques that were very similar i think my dad even though he's a a left-brained thinker i think he was attracted to the disciplined part of scientology and he andrew my family is so secretive and there was just like nothing i knew about my parents growing up really and i didn't realize just how secretive they were until i got out of scientology and started doing my own investigation about scientology itself and my family's background but the cult and the secret society stuff runs in my family i got a 20 for my 21st birthday i got a free masonic ring which was a hand-me-down from my grandfather and he was in the police department my family history is deep in shady stuff and my um i think i hate to say this ma'am but my parents didn't like sell me off to scientology or i wasn't you know they weren't making any deal they didn't get any money to put me in there but my dad is so programmed and my my parents are so programmed that they kind of just sold me off dude um to do to insist to put me in a program that's really dangerous and to this day they have no idea because they're still scientologists they have no idea the damage that it did to me they don't i don't know if they know that i speak out about it they're com they're manchurian candidates that can't recognize anything that's been going on around him you know we got recently like so i had some uh elgin straight who who was i guess he was born yeah he was born in the unification church the moonies and they even more than many other cults have this feeling a lot of the people who have left a lot of the children of those couples that they were sort of commodities like they were used by their parents in a sense because the only way that the parents can get into heaven is by having a child in the church so it's like their tickets to heaven and by leaving uh this when elgin left it's like his parents can't get to heaven anymore so there's all this guilt and stuff and i think it's quite a common thing in cults people did you feel in any sense a bit less like a son who's been being loved and cherished and more like a commodity in a sense 100 and just to not throw my parents under the bus because they're good people they have a lot of good qualities like i said i feel from most of the people in scientology and these cults are victims they're not psychopaths they're not narcissists some of them are but for the most part they have no idea what happened to them so yeah i felt like um my parents are not trying to harm me they were just doing what they believe in just like if you're born into an orthodox christian family they know that the way to teach their kids is to go to heaven and this is the way you do it the book is everything so it's not that people are mean or idiots they're just simply passing on their belief system so by my parents doing that though they took my life and i don't regret it now because i've gotten something out of this experience but it almost killed me i wanted to suicide myself and i went through a massive post-traumatic stress disorder event for about a decade once i woke up in january 2008. like i said my parents are oblivious to all of this my dad's at the very top of the bridge and has been for about 20 years they would consider themselves the most loving decent parents we gave our son everything if they knew i was talking out about it i'm sure they do it's just weird that the church hasn't showed up at my door i don't know what the hell is going on i expected them to come to my door two days after i put out the first video i've heard they don't do it as much oh they definitely don't andrew but i don't want to underplay it either it's just that so many people have spoken out so many brave souls that came before we had going clear in 2015 leah remini show uh scientology aftermath 2017. dude when i was like shaking like still afraid to talk out about this these shows and everybody that spoke out before is made it what it is today where yeah it's no problem but they still i don't want to underplay it either because they still do fair game people it's just too many people are speaking out so you're right about that and fair game for those who don't know what that means as sort of a verb what is that sorry man sometimes i slip into these stupid scientology words without explaining them i think a lot of people will know that because a lot of people have seen all the documentaries and things but i just always want to you know i'm always conscious of that for the few who don't good call yeah i try to be conscious of that too so fair game means um especially back in the 80s and 90s and even when i came out in january 2008 anonymous had just hit the scene where they started to expose scientology worldwide like i came out the same month that anonymous did their worldwide protest in january 2008 so i came out at the exact right time but let's say before that they because they didn't have the exposure that they have they would hire private investigators to go through people's um garbage cans they would do they do all sorts of things i don't know what i can say on here i don't want to libel myself or anything but let me just say that well they had an intelligence operation which is called osa that stands for office of special affairs that's the equivalent of their cia their cia called osa was um more effective than the actual cia itself so that gives you an idea of the ops the operations they were able to run on critics and dude there's a whole litany of it on the internet like i said people many brave souls have actually died for this have gone insane have had their lives destroyed they have caused so much damage for a group with only 30 000 give or take members it's incredible the damage that they did would it and i i don't mean for this to sound glib or facetious or whatever uh but would it sort of almost be providing it didn't go too far almost a badge of honor if you did sort of see on the way on the internet one day like a doug scott kramer page that they've made and some like a bunch of lies made up about you i don't i i don't really here's the thing andrew i'm not i'm not against scientologists or scientology i'm not attacking them personally l ron hubbard's the one that created this well even he didn't create it but let's just say he's the founder and like i said earlier most of them are victims so i personally since i lived it i understand what what they're what how it works my whole channel is basically about breaking down how the trap is done so that people like me don't just think that they're they can't fall into a cult oh i seen you i'd never fall for that how can these idiots fall for that what they don't see is the mechanics of how the trick is done this [ __ ] is used on us all the time every day 24 7 dude so for someone to come along and say that they they're oblivious or not oblivious but that they're um they can't be susceptible to mind control that's a really stupid statement in my opinion because everybody is and one of the things that i got out of scientology which i'm thankful for despite the torture of it is that it completely opened up my eyes after i came out of the cold to see just how much what l ron hubbard is using is used on the global scale and that allowed me to protect myself because it's not something new that these cults are doing they've been around since ancient history dude it's just that hubbard and associates like i said earlier they kind of perfected it because he's using some of the stuff like i said that they got out of the mk ultra project you add all the um the nlp dude he the occult he threw fricken everything into this thing i feel like i rambled off your question but i i i hope that answers a little bit of it absolutely and do tell us i guess it's sort of a lay person way because i think if they want the details people can go to your channel dazed and confused um but of of what that is the mind control the sort of the basics of mind control in that sense do you want to i have a bunch of different examples that i've used and i think on shawn's show i busted out an example do you want me to kind of just give you an example like an auditing session or a basic drill or something so people can kind of see how it works it gets complex my man this took me years like i said of reading books like steve hassan about coercive control and mind control it's really detailed as you know you cover you cover ex-cult members too and i know you know quite about quite a bit about this too i tried to get to get steve hassan on and he did reply to my first email and then i didn't hear again and that happens sometimes what can you do i was gonna have mon man i had him confirmed bro but i'm sorry i don't i that book's brilliant but the ones he's putting out since then and what he's encouraging people to do uh since the pandemic hit i'm not down with that so i kind of cancelled one on on him yeah like i would say my opinion is um definitely his book um combating called mind control anybody was in a cult if you can get somebody to read it great book fantastic book a lot of that information he took from robert j lifton who wrote a book called thought thought reform and the psychology of totalism which is basically the the you know the root of like how this stuff works so um steve's later book so like i said i'm not i'm not for trump or biden i don't do either side but he just wrote this book about how trump's a cult leader and apparently biden you know who can't even say his own name is great i don't do any of that stuff so as soon as he starts trying to sell books he's not applying his own information that's in there both sides are a destructive cult dude it's not just trump that's the narcissist and [ __ ] everything up i don't like to get into the political [ __ ] either dude but like i said when soon as anybody picks a side it's like i'm i'm i'm suss on them cults on both sides there really are dude i don't know why that's hard to figure out it's like people want to pick their particular player rather than do what's good for the whole yeah no i agree i agree with you i think that's a big part of what this podcast is about sort of showing the the subtle ones and the different kinds of ones right but yeah take me through some of the and also for anyone who's confused about steve hassan he's just as you say he's the guy who he's like the guy that everyone talks about about talks about cults and stuff and brainwashing and and if people if he's listening of wondering in their cult i would highly recommend picking up that book combating cult mind control he did a thorough job of showing because what's a cult oh just a wacky belief system he shows how a destructive cult works and he uses this thing by the way called the bite model which stands for behavior information thought and emotion and it can allow you to assess rather even a one-on-one relationship or a group dynamic you can definitely assess using very good information if you're in a cult so andrew let me give you an example of the very first thing that most scientologists would do this is a simple one that people could understand so they will sell you a communication course usually um i wanna there's a bunch of other stuff that goes on before this andrew about breaking you down finding your ruin and then selling you the course but let me just answer your question and get into what the hell happens so this communication course let's say me and you are on this course you twin up with someone and then you have a supervisor that doesn't tell you how to do things they just refer you to the l ron hubbard materials so you can never speak or interpret the materials you just do what's said and everybody twins up so me and you would be sitting a very uncomfortable distance from each other in a chair and we would just stare at each other like this andrew and we would you'd have to yes like we can actually do it right now so be completely this is cr i don't recommend this at home people but this is how you go into a trance so if you just sit still andrew no blinking no thoughts in your head just be there comfortably that's the goal of this drill so me and you would sit here and stare so i would have just flunked by the way and and let's say i move let's let's say we're just you're doing a damn good job it's actually frightening can you please come out of that that's really good god damn it andrew you're putting me back into this into the sciatica and i used to have a thing i can put on the camera and my my it accidentally got smashed when when my girlfriend dropped something on it but sure she'll yeah but it was a thing you put on the camera and i would be able to see you through the glass in the camera and then it would be real eye contact but because i'm looking a bit beneath the camera i'm looking at the screen but still i yeah i was really i can do that but i cannot blink and all that stuff but i i do tend to smile or laugh at some point that's why i couldn't stop doing but go on what were you saying yeah yeah okay so i'll just move you through this real quick so let's say we sit here and we just stare at each other now this goes on for hours on end and your butt moves so um one person is the coach let's say i'm the coach and you're the student but we're both doing the same drill so if you move i go flunk andrew you twitched flunk andrew whatever um so this goes on for hours on end weeks on end and what happens is what they're looking for is what's called a major stable win something has to happen so when i was a kid and i did this this is the very first drill i did um i you know you go into a trance eventually um i did this with my sister so my sister after a few hours of doing this started to shape-shift into all sorts of different creatures the shadows on the face start to blur and you start to hallucinate a little bit that's just what happens when you stare at a point anyways um it's a it's a way of putting yourself into a trance no big deal but the thing is cons that's just one example and scientology is constantly keeping you in a hypnotic state and you're in and around the environment taking the elrond hubbard words so it's all going into your subconscious while you're suggestible it seems innocent enough but it's that environment and that trance state that actually implants these ideas without kind of your awareness of just what's happening so you walk away with these ideas so after we do the staring one um by the way the first one actually is with your eyes closed and you just have to be there comfortably the second one is the staring and then this is all the communication chorus and then the next one is called um well there's a few i'm just going to cut to the the main ones another one after that is called bull baiting so now that you can sit there andrew and be there comfortably not blinking not being anywhere else in your head you're just looking at me i would now push your buttons and i'd say this is this is like a military thing to get you to not react so that you can both take abuse in scientology and give it while being desensitized so this is like i said i break this down on my channel it's a whole deep set up step by step by step all under the guise of helping you communicate better so i would say andrew you know your eyebrows a little funky what do you what do you got going on there and i've just got a stare i just got i'm just gonna stare you just have to sit there and stare i don't want to do this to you because these are not cool okay fine dude but punishment if i really andrew i was a professional scientologist so if i really lay into this i feel like i could be mean and i don't want to do that i i did this with the old lady once and caused you to just break down they train you to have no mercy and to really push somebody's buttons it feels like and again i know this is not the case you're telling me this woman broke down and stuff like that it feels like unless you knew me intimately that there's very little you could say you couldn't you know you don't know uh the things that would upset i mean you're just you've got a face and i suppose you could say oh your accent's stupid and this or that but i feel like that's very surface level but i guess are you telling me that really really it does go deeper does it you don't think there's anything that i could say that that would uh that would without knowing your background that would twitch anything about your looks any now by the way um it can get sexual too um you know girls would do it with guys and actually they would even show their breasts i mean they would go to to high lengths to get somebody to blush to smile so let's say a girl was sitting in front of you andrew and she started you know doing sexual [ __ ] to you and kind of getting you to feel uh i i promise you dude if you were at a scientology place and you signed up for this course you would definitely uh have a few reactions i've never seen anybody do i don't want to say for sure but i've never seen anybody go through these courses without reacting what i'd say and i'm sure my girlfriend who edits this podcast would agree is that i i wouldn't wouldn't react at all it would do it would be like staring at a blank wall that's amazing can i ask you can i ask you what how how you how you would be able to do that like nothing would nothing would be able to get to you any anything your girlfriend said to you no well look i'm joking with the the girls what are you a sociopath i'm joking with the girls stuff either the girls of course because uh you know just because i know she's listening andrew you and your girlfriend would twin up let's say you both went down there so the the person doing the bull baiting could know all about you she would absolutely be your partner if you both signed up for that communication course yeah that's a killer but even then you know they're trying to annoy you exactly you you know it but and and believe me i you know i felt like like you i can take it but it gets to you after all remember you're doing this for hours on end and also i could do that i could do that like anything goes you know hey andrew you just you know louis thoreau in my scientology movie does a good version of that um if people want to see that and there's videos you know where you can he he does the bull baiting in that movie that's right uh i'm the master in fact the movie yeah yeah and the exactly um joaquin phoenix is you know was terrible he would react at everything but anyway so that you got the bull baiting and now the next one another one is you break out the book alice in wonderland now what the heck does alice in wonderland have to do with um this is all part of setting age regressing you and setting you into this weird new reality you also play with clay when you make clay demonstration these are subtle age regression techniques under the guise of communication so i would pick out an alice in wonderland book and now i was trying to be an actor uh andrew so these also appeal to artists because we were learning how to communicate with someone so what i do is i take a line from alice in wonderland which are really weird and is getting you to speak gibberish but getting you to think that that's more and more normal because the more you go up in scientology the more you're going to be with gibberish but because you are doing weird things at the beginning like alice in wonderland you're being set into this new reality slowly so we would read weird things out of alice in wonderland and let's say i was the um coach you as a student would have to learn how to acknowledge me blah blah blah blah and you would say i got that um i don't know what some of the lines in alice in wonderland are but whatever it's all this weird acid trip [ __ ] right and then you would you would say i got that you have to give a proper acknowledgement to gibberish so are you getting some idea of just on the communication course there's already certain tools that seem a little strange but not that strange because you're just communicating but these are mind control techniques that alice in wonderland i have a video on my series it actually comes from the kubarck manual which is a cia manual using alice in wonderland which he stole it from in order to mind [ __ ] people again like i said it's really complex just breaking down the communication course but there's all these elements of subtle mind control techniques that like you said seem innocent hey i'm it would be fun if you and your girlfriend are sitting in front of each other bull baiting it's actually a lot of people would have fun and it's terrifying and then you feel like you're overcoming stuff because i can now stand up to the bully i don't give a crap what anybody says to me but like i said so it seems positive but you got gobbly [ __ ] a tran state and you're going to get used to gibberish getting used to giving abuse and also you learn how to control somebody else and be control that's another whole other element it's really loaded with sophistication in terms of what it's actually doing that's why i tell people don't go down to a scientology center don't take that personality test even if you think it's a joke i've seen people that know it's a joke that go down there ha ha ha get locked in that room have their ruin found and sign up for a course dude i've seen it many many times so i just want to warn people it's not something to [ __ ] with you know what i think you know you're saying that it could it's it's beneficial in some of these uh practices for like being an actor and stuff like that i think i would benefit from being the one who says the mean things in the ball baiting because it must be quite liberating to be able to actually say horrible things and not have that guilt because i go through life constantly worried i've offended people and i bet a lot of people could relate to that and be like oh that'd be that's a kind of therapy right dude great point andrew i was just watching i had this documentary up uh about the process church and they you the process church of the final judgment which is an offshoot of scientology and they were talking about just what you said um this is a guy who's been out of the cult for god knows how many years i think it was timothy wiley or somebody else and he was talking about that and there's some validity in that they do bull baiting too they do the training routines that we just talked about in that cult they stole everything from scientology he said where else can you actually say these kind of things where else can you test if you can take it dude i'm telling you it's just weird double-edged sword and i've had so many discussions with ex-scientologists that will swear that these are beneficial and they're not maybe they get out of scientology and they go okay the zenu stuff's crazy and all that but i'm still going to hang on to these training routines i know people that are doing these at their house right now man and they're this is why i try to break down hypnotism on as as a main theme not just some word to throw off and some spengoli you know it's not like that it's more like nlp and it's more like going into a light trance state while being totally conscious you're not falling asleep or anything you do go into a deep trance state a lot of the times in the scientology auditing and i've been knocked out for 30 minutes and then come too so you can actually completely go to sleep but these are subtle mind control techniques and hypno techniques of putting you into hypnotism and scientology so it does seem beneficial andrew and i'd be lying if i said i dude i got a lot out of scientology by getting out um i can't say that i don't know it's it's like i said it's a double-edged sword but i don't want to push people into well i want to get toughened up therefore i'm going to go join a cult i think you can get those things without that and um and you don't need to test yourself in a mind control cult environment because there's too many other dangers and if you just isolate that and you and your girlfriend want to push your buttons or bulbate each other at home that's probably not harmless but you're still what's the point i mean you're what what happens in that andrew is uh it affects you like i came away feeling bad because i laid into that gal and she also felt shitty but then she was on a high a couple hours later because she passed it and i could say those things to her it was about her weight and i could say those things to her and she had this fake plastic smile on her face because she could finally stand it when i would talk about her weight that's not healthy dude that's what i'm talking about it seems like it it's a good thing because it toughens you up but i'd warn people to look at the subtleties of what's actually happening in these things it doesn't make you feel good you've mentioned um xenu and again i think most people are aware of that that's like the stuff you find out usually after all the love bombing and all that stuff but then once you're already sort of in they tell you about this alien stuff which to be honest is no crazier to me and people give me [ __ ] about this but you know it is that's fine um than any other religion it's no crazier to me than than like a guy coming to live and walking on water and stuff but it involves aliens so i guess it gets more ridicule than the other ones but what difference to me um did that ever ring true to you um in your 20s when you're most in the cult what was it was that possible to you that xeno was real and all the alien stuff well like i said they don't hit you on xenu until ot3 and by the time you get to that you've invested so i that's a level i got to before i went insane and then a couple years later that subconsciously because i had a nervous breakdown outside of their organization that was the very beginning of me subconsciously doubting i say subconsciously because i had no idea anything was wrong with scientology i thought it was me any cult tells you everything's your fault oh it didn't work go back and study the materials you didn't get it bro they don't hit you with xenu very very few people make it up to that level five percent of all scientologists i would guess maybe 10 percent um so by the time i got up to that your and anybody does you're already 10 20 years invested of um nomenclature and space opera and you've listened to tape lectures that are all about past lives and how l ron hubbard was on the van allen belt and he was like sussing space over here and he's got the track mapped over here in the palladians and it's dude it's way out there but you're not hit with that at the beginning it's the communication course it's basic tools for life it's how to fix the family then when you get into the auditing which is where you hold the soup cans another psychotherapist hypnotizes you and implants false memories into you while you think you're going spiritually free and remembering real past lives that's when you start to get introduced to the space opera they throw you onto the tapes tape lectures you just drone on and listen to hubbard just gibberish you know in the chorus room for weeks hours years on end so by the time you get to those confidential levels and bro they put you through the ringer just to get on there your ethics have to be spot on you have to this is where they get the blackmail material on you you have to tell them every crime everything you've ever done um and fix everything so they do they make you want to um it feels super special by the time you get up to that level you've had a million hours of indoctrination in space opera so by the time you hear the xenu thing i completely believed it dude and by the way that created schizophrenia and multiple personality disorder in me because what you're told on that level is that there's all these um every human being is made up of basically um satan's what they call them body satans and those dating means soul so you have all these souls and there's a whole galactic story about how these souls got onto the bodies of humans but when we incarnate according to scientology we are all um we have all these states and these souls on us and then when i got onto ot3 and was told this i felt every night these freakers these them talking to me so um this is by the way where the mk ultra stuff kicks in because they were to disassociate and create multiple personality disorder that's a technology and by the time you get up it's not just stupid xenu stuff it's designed to split you um into different personalities this is another myth that i just wanted to kind of dispense with because i want to say that this stuff is real dude i was had voices in my head talking to me i went crazy and my dad had to come down and i'm a normal person dude but they made me into this so by the time i work my ass off spent god knows how much money and dude the choruses and the amount of time you dedicate it's like it's like 12 college courses so your the sunk call cost fallacy is massive you're totally invested and you totally believe in this you have uh 50 or 100 fake past lives you've already believed and implanted into you so dude it's like it took me so out there and like i said voices were screaming in my head every night i would go to the gym and i would just see i could almost hear their body things i could just it i could almost i i could just see everybody around me as filled with these beings and how special i was because i knew this secret about all these other humans i was seeing around me and every religion or whatever andrew would do the same thing but there is a distinction between a destructive cult and a religion they all may have crazy beliefs but check this out if you remember the freemason scientology the oto what makes those cults cults and different than a religion is the pyramid structure and they dole out information and the idea is to get to the top so the freemasons have you know they go up to the 33rd degree it goes beyond that actually but they have in other words it's levels and scientology they have all these different levels to get up the bridge so they dole out bits and bits and pieces of information if you're a christian they're going to say we believe in jesus he died for our sins you get the cosmology the creation myth everything up front in these cults any secret in these secret societies that's why i call that's the series raised in a secret society distinguish it between a religion you don't have to pay a million dollars sacrifice your family and and your life and your time and invest in all that to find out their creation myth you know it's a million bucks in 10 years or whatever to get up to the top so you can find out what it's all about and by the way the very top of scientology um in the 80s before they actually removed uh the very top of the bridge and changed it because it was so offensive to christians so what people were learning imagine this andrew to get from the very bottom of the bridge all the way up to the top which is called ot8 which stands for operating satan eight and a thetan is a spirit so operating as a spirit level eight the highest level you can get into scientology he said that he's lucifer the lightbringer he's come to halt the second coming and he's basically a satanist and this is the big secret that he's been holding back from his flock this whole time and congratulations and welcome to the level um where only a few people got to now you know the true story about me and now you can help me to um basically do this satanic agenda that's what people were freaking spending their lives learning when at the very beginning and most of the way throughout they thought they were improving their lives and going spiritually free now what if he told you it was a satanic quote unquote satanic cult at the beginning do you think anybody would join that so that's the difference between scientology and say christianity they don't horn swaggle you and [ __ ] you and make you pay for levels to find out they tell you upfront what it is but also you say talk about the beliefs yeah the beliefs are just as crazy to each their own but i don't i think all i think they're all ridiculous what you're saying about um you know believing in this stuff led to you actually hearing the voices reminds me of you know i've recently taken to drinking non-alcoholic beers and then find myself staggering home like on it oh my head's actually dizzy and i'm you know and i've read you know the expectation effect i think by david robson science right and he talks about people with parkinson's who are given placebos who their brains actually start to produce the chemicals to to calm their their you know the problem their symptoms so it's it's incredible the power of the mind i can see how that might happen dude great point andrew because so much of scientology is placebo effect and some of it does quote-unquote work and that's why people that's why it's so hard to kind of break apart okay what was good what worked what didn't when you add placebo what i did when i came out of scientology because i was so out there as i wanted to ground myself in reality before i go believing in past lives or any of this stuff again let me find out what science says let me find out what i was kept from because i only learned scientology my whole life what does the rest of the world have to say about this phenomena so then i learned about placebo effect coercive control mind control i told you i learned about the government control projects because it goes deep and i learned about all this stuff that's basically can be shown scientifically and you're right our brains are the placebo effect it's a real thing dude so much of scientology was placebo effect that's another thing because we believe because like as an actor i believed i had a special way to communicate that communication course that we just talked about you damn right it gave me the confidence when i went into the audition rooms feeling special and of course that works you if you feel that way then you perform that way that's another thing like i was listening to um to chris shelton right before we did this interview you know just to see your style or whatever and he was talking about how belief it doesn't matter what you believe it's the actions but i mean i know people say that this is just my opinion but dude what you believe are your actions so they're not inseparable like your perception of reality will determine everything so even though like we were talking about earlier you might believe in xenu there is a whole cult structure that goes along with that you can't just extract yourself like from the christian church and say hey i don't want to you know be a part of this anymore and i'll leave you alone it's not like that with scientology so i wanted to get the difference across but nonetheless the belief will determine in my opinion how you will see the world and therefore how you will act so they're not inseparable and like you said the power of belief placebo effect has proven it we are you know our minds can do incredible things and we don't need any of these cults or any of these religions i don't think to access that just my opinion dude i don't want to bash back it doesn't sound like you're bashing people i don't want to be i always get sketchy when i talk about people's religions because i have you know a lot of my friends are religious and it's a common thing and they're good people and there's some great ideas in all of these religions too i think they have basic truths in them so i don't i feel a little i don't like talking too badly about religion but at the same time i guess my i was mine wasn't a religion it was a cult and like i said i'm pretty there's a difference to those two but at the same time i i don't see too much difference like you said earlier with the xenu and the other creation mess they all seem ludicrous to me yeah no that's how i feel as well and like you know we all i i think sometimes atheists can go so far and it's just like we've all got like a friend a family member whoever it might be who is religious and we don't need we don't need to be offensive to them they're not causing harm to anyone else i'm not an atheist either by the way i think atheist is another religion i've never seen people more religious than atheists so atheists religious or whatever like i said some of them i don't know bro i mean i've had some of them come over to my channel recently and they're worse than just freaking religious people it's like they're more religious i don't have a conviction at anything bro i've just tried to figure it out yeah but that's youtube people is there a whole subset of atheists by the way i'm just learning about this i imagine there's all types well i would say that i i am an atheist i would say but i don't think i would go around like what is that it just means i don't i don't believe in a god that means you don't believe in god right well okay i might say the same thing do you believe there's anything outside of the five sense reality or do you is it like does an atheist see it as can i see it taste it such a smell that's it is that what you're talking about is that how tell me how an atheist sees things i think i think it's more like well that's this is a thing look some of them will think like how you just said you know i mean every atheist is going to have a totally different understanding of the world and different different layers to it so for me it would just be it's not that i don't believe that there could be something out there it's just that i have no reason to believe it until one of my senses perceives it that doesn't mean it's not there but i don't i just don't have a reason but i'm not going to bash people who do believe stuff you know yeah yeah that makes sense i like i said i just i stand somewhere in between um i don't know andrew i just don't have a rigid belief on anything and some of the things that happened in scientology to me we're talking about the placebo effect and all that the powers of our mind and stuff i did have some rather out there experiences i don't know i can't prove it i don't know if the five senses can prove will ever prove it but i but it seems to me like there's probably in my opinion a hell of a lot more going on than the census can perceive that's just totally an opinion but for me that takes me right out of the realm of atheists because i don't i don't think it's just a dead robotic world and i don't i don't think that there's no spiritual aspect to it to me that's a and i know i'm sure atheists hear this a lot but to me that sound and that sounds like a really limited kind of sad way to look at the world i'm sorry but you know if that was all that there was it would seem well i would i want to talk i've never taught i never actually got to talk to an atheist student i didn't know you were one yeah so i'm not trying to turn the interview but frick i'm freaking curious how you think yeah you can ask whatever you want i'm not gonna be offended one of the things my friend coming out of his cult is because i've i've only been i only see things one way i have been a little bit overboard on asking people how they see things so i can get some so i can broaden my horizons i wanted to i've never been i've never thought as i don't i don't know about the god thing or whatever i don't i don't kind of do that but i'm just saying like um as an atheist do you so so this is all there is is it a sad ex is it a limited is it is it just hard no scientific way of living a life how do you see things is what i'm what i'm wondering i think an atheist wouldn't necessarily say that this is all there is because there's all sorts of as you're saying i think that there could be all sorts of things we don't perceive just as you say but have i think we would all i don't want to speak full atheist i think we would say but there is a scientific reason behind those things there is a scientific uh you know there's a reason grounded in science we can't perceive it because we don't know all the science at the moment and then the second part of the answer about like is this all there is i think most atheists believe that like any animal any sort of life or whatever that when we die we die and that's that's really sad man that's real i wish it wasn't the case to me that seems ridiculous though like i always felt like i had a continuity even as a kid that would be i always felt the continuity i'd love what also andrew i i don't claim to know anything like i said dude i don't i don't have my perception set on anything i'm i'm going to be figuring this out for the rest of my life what i don't want to do is pitch my tent on some religion or some belief system at all so i just trying to learn as much as i can i just had experiences in the cult and the weird way i grew up that i can't prove it but i'm quite certain at least in my vision my reality there's a hell of a lot more um also i don't i don't need to believe that like i said i when i got out of scientology i wanted i wanted to learn all the science to explain these things and once i got to that there still seemed to be a missing element so everything like you said that we're talking about the placebo effect the coercive persuasion how people fall for colts there's a whole science out there that does explain that really well but there's also some things that i think that it doesn't account for and that's when you get into personal experience and then that's when you get into the whole well prove it show me like show me god like you know it i don't think science the five senses can do that so it's it's all it's like who knows right yeah it just seems sad to me though andrew like thinking that this is all there is let me let me respond to that because i don't want you to feel sad about that because yeah it's it's it's sad but it's also beautiful i mean it was hamlet and shakespeare he first says like you know this the only thing worse than dying is is going to a heaven that lasts forever you know living forever that's a great point that's [ __ ] scary so so how beautiful that we only have this limited time i do wish it was more like a thousand years 100 or 80 or something does seem quite short but i do wish we could uh i you know have a bit more but i do think we should let's treasure every moment every second because there's no next bit i absolutely agree with that dude that that i want to say so i that's some great points that you made and i don't want to sound like i'm drifting back in a new age area fairyland because that's dangerous to believe in and what you're talking about because then this is what that uh that nike shoe cult uh heaven's gate you know where they're going to the next level this existence doesn't mean anything that's one of the things that these cults do is what you just made a great point about is you don't need to worry about this life there's many more and so you skip this one and by the way that desensitized the crap out of me to living this life so i'm not talking about that dangerous new age version of looking at that i felt i felt when i came into this world before scientology and everything i just felt a continuity just as a kid like i didn't feel like i was just nothing um i don't even know how to explain that but that i only understand that now looking back at my life but at the same in that like i said andrew that's what as ridiculous as scientology was the fact that there was more to life than just being an animal or a robot that was already attractive to me with or without scientology so i wouldn't say that that ever left left me it's just scientology is is evil in taking that concept and just like you said this life doesn't mean [ __ ] you can just float off into the ether and we're just trying to get to the next level anyways that's how that's very dangerous i get what you're saying and look it it it does feel a bit bleak this idea that one day you'll just never exist anymore and we do try to fill that hole i mean we seem to be the only animal you know the only thing in the world that has any sort of self-consciousness and awareness that we even exist so to it's a curse to be given that awareness that you exist and you will die and you will no longer i mean the dog doesn't know or an animal doesn't know we know we're going to die that's really really hard that's a curse but i think the best thing that i've got to and i'm only 33 so i've got way more to learn you know in 10 years i think differently in another 10 year i might be coming back on here and you're the atheist and i'm the other way who knows but what the best way i've got at the moment and i doubt it i've never had that we'll see but i i the best the best thing i've learned to do and all i can think to do is just don't think about that bad stuff and try and just be as happy as you can every day live every day be nice to people and all that stuff and that's all you can do i would counter that too with um uh you know since just because of how i grew up i i have um it's expanded my consciousness and and trying to actually figure things out even more because dude i one of the most mind-bending things because like you know scientology as we know looks [ __ ] from the outside but how would you know if you're in a cult you don't you can't suss it so when i grew up in something like that and then woke up in my early 30s it made me question everything because to go through most a good portion of your life believing one way and then realizing was all a trap it was all fake and there was mechanisms that did that on purpose that caused me to see the world an entirely different way and if i didn't have that experience i'm not sure i would have asked very deep questions and because that wounded me so badly it took me very very deeply into myself and to me this is where i would agree with christianity the kingdom of heaven is within there's so much that is is i think that we can access that we just simply um aren't taught about i would have loved to learn about the placebo effect coercive control cults in high school narcissist sociopaths why is that information missing why were we taught fake history why didn't i learn about mk ultra in school when i i had to live it and figure it out myself there's so much missing information that i wouldn't have gotten if i didn't kind of like i say get seriously wounded and be forced to look for my own answers that's why i i would just i'd say i won't become an atheist or a christian or any of it because i don't know dude i don't i don't need a off the peg belief system i just it to me it's what it's it's what it's it's life experience and and what you conclude not like wrapping it up in a box or a belief system like i said andrew scientology did um a permanent like mind thing to me so i know that that might sound a little weird or i think i can't help think differently just because it did it [ __ ] me the [ __ ] up you know what i mean i was going to say just because you know speaking of why i don't know you were speaking before actually about it helping with being an actor and stuff like that and sort of gave you the confidence determination that sort of leads us on to tom cruise who just has i just watched him in that film about the planes and stuff which is not really for me i didn't enjoy it very much but the guy looks about 20 he's 60. um this guy is almost not off this earth he looks i couldn't i can't believe what he looks like how he acts and stuff now that what's what is what are your thoughts on tom cruise did you have ever have any encounters with him what yeah tell me what you think no i never encountered any of them um just real brilliantly at the celebrity center where i went and that's a place in los angeles where all the scientologists that are also actors producers etc go to get brainwashed that's where they do their courses and stuff and they have certain tiers where you wouldn't necessarily see tom cruise or these people around they take them through the back alley put them on the fourth floor they go to their special places so i never ran into them but i did hang out with the c-level actors these were people like well um i don't even know if people would know any of these people but i went to an acting class which was called bobby lyons there's two acting classes you would take if you were a scientologist the beverly hills playhouse run by a guy named milton casales which was mostly a full-on scientology school and bobby lyons i went to bobby lyons and i met jason doring who was on veronica mars i met um laura perpong was in my class and a couple of the masterson danny masterson step the step brother and step sister they're in my class so i wasn't i was surrounded with these people that 70s show yeah so i hung around the c-level or b-level actors and tom cruise is an is a different level if you listen to leah remini talk about her she she's freaking funny because she doesn't pull any punches she basically says he's a you know he is a different person andrew even amongst scientologists i don't think he looks i think he looks like he's done something to his face or something but i understand what you mean about the exuberance and they this is a that's a i think he's i don't want to diagnose him dude you have to do it professionally so it's just my total guess that he's a psychopath um so with that would come well i've learned by interviewing the psychopath on my channel they're very driven and they're like freaking machines dude and they can get so much more done than maybe the average human because their narcissism their drive to be the best is driving them to be the best so i think that's one element of the youth the energizer bunny and also the psychopathy he's a dr jekyll and mr hyde so he's a total [ __ ] dude behind um i'm sorry for cursing by the way if i if is that yeah it's fine not that brother honestly i don't want to mess up the okay i'll try not to curse man um he's not stop that he's not a good guy man i don't know anything about him but um i i know that that's the case just from from leah and these other people and my own observations um that you know if you listen to he got into scientology because of dyslexia and if you listen to him talk i mean if you really listen he's not very bright dude he's very childlike which is part of the cult indoctrination and since he's been so surrounded by david miscavige in that environment he's super age regressed he's super childlike plus he's only been a movie star his whole life i know just from having a little taste of that if you're not careful that can put you into a whole another bubble world so you had his possible psychopathy scientology and he's a movie star where nobody calls them out that guy is so far removed from anything that we would call the real world it i don't even dude that guy is different in a bad way not in a good way tell me about your channel days but not confused do you want to send people over there no don't send anybody over there no yeah i mean whatever if people want it i'm just joking the channels days but not confused i talk about scientology and other expanded subjects basically um breaking down the trap and then just uh doing little video diaries talking about um you know what it is and that's it doug you've been on the edge thank you for coming on thank you my man i appreciate it andrew hi i'm andrew gold former bbc journalist i got a little tired of restrictions over who i could interview and what i could say and do so i made this channel click this playlist here and i'll be seeing you on the edge [Music]

Channel: Andrew Gold

Views: 755,400

Keywords: andrew gold, on the edge with andrew gold, podcast, cults and extreme belief, cult, cult thinking, scientology, doug scott kramer, tom cruise, truth about tom cruise, scientologist, david miscavige, john travolta, the master, church of scientology, tom cruise scientology, scientologist tom cruise, xenu, scientology documentary, Mike Rowe Obliterates Scientology On His Podcast, Growing Up In Scientology, mission: tom cruise, top 10 celebrities who tried to warn us about Tom Cruise

Id: rqFNvddJ8yQ

Length: 63min 6sec (3786 seconds)

Published: Thu Aug 11 2022