[MUSIC] >> Fr. Pacwa: I'M FATHER MITCH PACWA AND WELCOME TO EWTN LIVE WHERE WE BRING YOU GUESTS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD! TONIGHT, WE'RE GOING TO SPEAK ABOUT SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE, A DOCTOR OF THE CHURCH. AND ONE OF MY JESUIT BROTHERS. OF COURSE, HE'S IN HEAVEN AND I'M JUST TRYING TO GET THERE. BUT BEFORE WE GET TO OUR GUEST TONIGHT, I WANT TO SHOW YOU A LITTLE CLIP ABOUT HIM THAT I MADE LAST YEAR, WHEN I WAS DOING SOME SPECIALS IN ROME. TAKE A LOOK AT THIS SHORT CLIP. >> I'M FATHER MITCH PACWA AND I'M PRIVILEGED TO BE PART OF THIS SERIES ON THE DOCTORS OF THE CHURCH. I'M STANDING IN THE CHURCH OF SAINT IGNACIO DE LOYOLA IN ROME, BEHIND ME. AND THERE IS THE BURIAL PLACE OF THE DOCTOR OF THE CHURCH THAT WE ARE STUDYING AT THIS POINT, NAMELY, SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE OF THE SOCIETY OF JESUS. HE'S ONE OF TWO JESUIT DOCTORS. BOTH OF WHOM WERE ROUGHLY CONTEMPORARY. AND BOTH OF THEM WERE DEALING WITH THE PROBLEMS THAT AROSE DURING THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION. SO, WE WILL ADDRESS ISSUES OF HIS LIFE AND HIS TEACHING, NOT ONLY FOR THE PAST, BUT ALSO FOR THE PRESENT. IT WAS A GREAT THING FOR ME TO BE THERE AND GO ON, AS A MATTER OF FACT, WE DID A WHOLE EPISODE ON SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE. TONIGHT, WE HAVE A GUEST WHO HAS BEEN DOING SOMETHING THAT I JUST HAVEN'T EVER GOTTEN TO. I REALLY HAD WISHED MANY YEARS AGO THAT I STARTED TO DO THIS BUT OF COURSE, THAT'S MY OTHER WORK THAT I HAVE TO DO. SO, OUR GUEST TONIGHT IS BUSY TRANSLATING THE WRITINGS OF SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE FROM LATIN INTO ENGLISH. HE IS HELPING US TO FIND AVAILABLE THIS GREAT GIANT OF OUR THEOLOGY AND OUR TRADITION. SO, I INVITE YOU TO WELCOME WITH ME, RYAN GRANT WHO IS DOING THIS WORK. RYAN, HOW ARE YOU? >> Guest: I'M WELL, FATHER, HOW ARE YOU? >> Fr. Pacwa: FIRST OF ALL, WHERE ARE YOU? >> I'M IN A PLACE CALLED POST PACE IDAHO, NORTH PANHANDLE. I LIVE A LITTLE FURTHER AWAY WITH MY WIFE AND CHILDREN. THIS IS ACTUALLY MY OFFICE. THIS IS MORE OR LESS WHERE A LOT OF THE MAGIC HAPPENS AS FAR AS TRANSLATING ST. ROBERT AND OTHER WORKS. >> Fr. Pacwa: WHERE DID YOU LEARN THE LATIN THAT YOU NEEDED TO BE ABLE TO TRANSLATE ST. ROBERT? HOW DIFFICULT IS HIS LATIN? >> Guest: I STARTED IN COLLEGE AND ACTUALLY, I WENT TO COLLEGE WITH THE DESIRE TO LEARN LATIN THINKING, OH, WELL, THAT WILL MAKE IT EASIER TO LEARN SPANISH. SO IT TOOK A COUPLE OF YEARS BEFORE I FINALLY DID LEARN LATIN. I DID OKAY, I HAD TROUBLE WORKING THROUGH THE GRAMMAR AND PUTTING THINGS ALL TOGETHERMENT IT WAS NOT UNTIL AFTER COLLEGE THAT, YOU KNOW, WITH YOUR BLOOD, SWEAT, TEARS AND FORCE OF WILL, TO WORK THROUGH GRAMMAR, WORK BOOKS, TEXTBOOKSES AND ANY OF THE TIME SITTING THERE WITH A DICTIONARY, IT'S NOT PLEASANT READING. SO I SAID THERE HAS TO BE AN EASIER WAY AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS SIS ERO OR ST. AUGUSTINE, WHICH TEXT, I TOOK IT, ONE PAGE AT A TIME, ANY WORD I DON'T KNOW I'M GOING THROAK IT UP, MEMORIZE IT AND KEEP GOING. SO, I DID THAT. PAGE BY PAGE BY PAGE. THE VOCAB RETENTION JUST WENT UP. PROBLEMS WITH ANY SYNTAX OR COMPLICATED THINGS, I WENT TO A PRIEST THAT KNEW IT WELL. AND HE WOULD EXPLAIN IT. THEN I BROKE DOWN THE RULES SO I WOULDN'T FORGET. AND I JUST CONTINUED TO USE, READ, STUDY AND LEADING UP TO A TIME WHEN I WAS ASKED TO TEACH IT. THEN, I TAUGHT IT FOUR YEARS, OUT OF A BOOK THAT WAS ENTIRELY LATIN. THAT MORE OR LESS SOLIDIFIED THAT IN MY MIND. >> Fr. Pacwa: THERE'S NOTHING LIKE TEACHING THAT HELPS YOU LEARN SOMETHING! ISN'T IT? >> Guest: THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S RIGHT. >> SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE, HE WAS TAUGHT GREEK AND SLATED, WHEN IN THE GREEK P PREPARATORY SCHOOL IN PIEDMONT HE WAS ASKED TO TEACH GREEK AND HE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING BESIDES THE ALPHABET AND THEY SAID, OKAY, WE'RE JUST GOING TO REVIEW WHAT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE LEARNING LAST YEARS. AND THEN AT NIGHT, IN THE SCANT TIME HE HAD, HE WAS GOING TO TEACH HIMSELF ALL OF THE THINGS HE WAS GOING TO TEACH THE NEXT DAY. HE WAS FAR MORE PRODIGGENT THAN I WAS, AND THEN HE WAS ABLE TO SPEAK ON ALL OF THE MAJOR GREEK THINKERS OF THE ANCIENT TIME. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO LEARN, THESE LANGUAGES AND BE ABLE TO GET BACK TO LITERATURE. WHAT YOU HAVE DONE IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT BECAUSE ST. ROBERT'S WORKS WERE TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH BACK IN THE 16TH CENTURY, I BELIEVE. BUT YOU CAN'T FIND COPIES OF IT. AND OF COURSE, THE ENGLISH IS NOT SO EASY FOR US TO READ IN MODERN TIMES AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS A GREAT WORK THAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING. YOU ARE TRANSLATING THROUGH ST. ROBERT'S TEXTS AND THIS IS EXTREMELY HELPFUL BECAUSE HIS WORKS ARE THEMSELVES VERY USEFUL USEFUL. >> Guest: YES, THAT'S RIGHT. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT LED ME TO DO THIS WAS THAT I WAS WORKING ON A NUMBER OF PROJECTS. I HAD A PRIEST THAT DID NOT KNOW LATIN. HE WANTED TO GO OUT AND TALK WITH PEOPLE WHO HAD LEFT THE CHURCH AND HAD USED TEACHING OF ST. ROBERT, SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE AND IT WAS NOT EXACTLY WHAT HE TAUGHT BUT IT WAS SOMETHING IN THE PAST -- I DON'T WANT TO REHASH THAT NOW -- BUT HE WANTED TO KNOW WHAT SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE WAS TALKING ABOUT. WHAT WAS HE SAYING THERE. SO, I BROKE OUT MY VOLUME OF THE CONTROVERSIES, THIS ONE. JUST SHOWING YOU FOR A MINUTE, FROM 17 # 1 -- 1721, GIVES YOU A SENSE OF THE MASSOME TOMES WRITINGS WERE. WHAT THEY WERE. AND ANOTHER PLACE, THESE PLACES NOT CITED OR READ BECAUSE NO TRANSLATION WAS READ. SO, HE STARTED EXPLAINING AND I JUST READ OVER THE VOLUME AND I SAID, WHY HASN'T THIS EVER BEEN TRANSLATED. SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE. SO, I JUST MORE OR LESS GOT TO WORK, RAISED SOME MONEY, FOUND AN EDITOR AND JUST KIND OF BARRELED THROUGH IT. >> Fr. Pacwa: I'M DELIGHTED THAT YOU DID. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I STUDIED SIGNIFICANTLY IN SEMINARY WAS THE REFORMATION AND THE COUNTER REFORMATION. THE CATHOLIC REACTION. WHEN I READ, ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS OF HAVING THE JESUIT PRIESTS THAT TAUGHT ME WAS THAT HE MADE SURE THAT WE READ PRIMARY SOURCES. WE ACTUALLY READ WHAT THE PROTESTANTS AND THE CATHOLICS SAID TO EACH OTHER. SO, THAT WE DIDN'T GET A SUMMARY FROM SOMEBODY ELSE, WE LOOKED AT THE ORIGINAL TEXT. THIS CANNOT BE UNDERESTIMATED. AND WHEN YOU DO THAT, THOUGH, YOU SEE HOW NASTY EVERYBODY WAS. YOU KNOW, FATHER AT THE TIMESEL -- TETZEL IN VERY NASTY TERMS AND MARTIN LUTHER RESPONDED TO HIM AND TO THE POPE IN SOME NASTY TERMS AND HE WAS CALLING THE POPE THE ANTI-CHRIST. AND WITHIN TWO OR THREE MONTHS OF NAILING UP HIS 95 THEE SAYS. AND IT WENT DOWNHILL FROM THERE. THESEEST AND WHERE BOTH, SAINT PETER CONISCIOUS AND ROBERT BELLARMINE BECAME SAINTS BECAUSE THEY WERE CHARITABLE TO THEIR OPPONENTS. AND THEY WERE THOROUGH AND RESPONDED TO THE ISSUES. BUT THEY DID SO WITH CHARITY. THIS TO ME IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ELEMENTS OF READING SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE. >> Guest: I WOULD AGREE. THE NATURE OF APOLOGETICS IN THAT TIME WAS FAIRLY NEW SCIENCE. IT WAS EASY TO ALLOW EMOTIONS AND AFFECTED ARGUMENTS TO TAKE OVER. AND EVEN LIKE THE WRITERS, JESUIT STAPLETON, APOLOGIST, HE FELL DOWN TO USING BAD LANGUAGE WHEN HE GOT FRUSTRATED. ROBERT BELLARMINE GOT FRUSTRATED, HE WAS KNOWN TO HAVE A TEMPER AND HE ALWAYS TRIED TO CONTROL IT. SOME BIOGRAPHERS NOTE THAT, TWO DIFFERENT ONES, PEOPLE DOUBLE-DEALING AND HAD GOTTEN ALMS AND TRYING TO GET MORE AND AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE OUT OF HIM. AND HE WOULD BE FUMING AND RESTRAINING HIMSELF. BECAUSE HIS NATURAL TEMPER WOULD COME UP AND HE PUT IT BACK DOWN. SO, HE RELATES READING, THOUGH, READING LUTHERAN MARTIN KEMPS, THAT THE TRIFLING AND CERTAIN ARGUMENTS DROVE HIM UP A WALL. BUT NEVERTHELESS, HE NEVER DESCENDS INTO THE SNAKE PIT OF APOLOGETICS WHICH WAS ALMOST NORMAL, BEEN EXPECTED IF HE HAD DONE SO. SO, YOU SEE THIS AGAIN TOO WITH PEOPLES' DEATHS. THIS IS ANOTHER ONE WHERE YOU SEE PAMPHLETS WHEN SOMEBODY CAME OUT, THIS PERSON DIED IN THIS HORRIBLE WAY, RECYCLING STORIES, YOU KNOW, SOME HORRIBLE DEATH. AND THE WAY YOU DIED WAS SUPPOSED TO BE AT THAT TIME INDICATIVE OF HOW YOU LIVED. A SO, CALVIN DIES CONSUMED BY WORMS. LUT LUTHER HUNG HIMSELF WAS A TRACK THAT WENT AROUND. AND THAT'S NOT TRUE. THE PERSON AT HIS DEATH SAID HE DIED WITH OTHERS PRAYING AROUND HIM. THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF THAT. AND IT PASSED ALONG QUICKLY. ALL OF THE CALUMNY, SLANDER, DETRACTMENTS ANYTHING THAT YOU COULD USE IN PRINT WAS JUST FINE AS FAR AS A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE CONCERNED. AND FOR ROBERT BELLARMINE, THERE WAS NOTHING HIGHER THAN GETTING TO HEAVEN. THE APOLOGETICS WAS IN THE SERVICE OF SAVING SOULS. SO, THE IDEA OF DESCENDING DOWN FROM CHARITY IN ORDER TO SAVE SOULS, IT JUST DID NOT WORK. >> Fr. Pacwa: WELL, THE PROBLEM WOULD BE, WHILE YOU TRIED TO WIN AN ARGUMENT, YOU CAN LOSE YOUR OWN SOUL BY THAT LACK OF CHARITY. AND THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. THAT WE MUST BE VERY, VERY CAUTIOUS ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE EITHER PREACHING THE GOSPEL, DEFENDING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND DEFENDING THE CATHOLIC FAITH, OR DEALING WITH C CRITICISM OF THOE WHO NEED TO BE CRITICIZED STILL DO SO WITH THAT FOCUS ON CONCERN FOR THE SOUL OF THAT PERSON AND THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM, AND THE SOUL OF THE PREACHER OR THE APOLOGIST. ALL OF THIS HAS TO BE KEPT IN BALANCE BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST A MEANS TO AN END AND THAT THE END JUSTIFIES ANY MEANS. WE CAN'T ACCEPT IT IN POLITICS, WE CAN'T ACCEPT IT IN THEOLOGY. WE HAVE TO HAVE JUST -- AND IN THE CASE OF THEOLOGY, SANCTIFYING MEANS TO ADDRESS PROBLEMS THAT WE SEE WHETHER IN APOLOGETICS OR PROBLEMS INSIDE THE CHURCH. >> Guest: YES, PRECISELY. AND IF YOU THINK TODAY, THE INTERNET FORUM, WHETHER ON FACEBOOK OR TWITTER OR ANY OF THESE FORUMS WHERE PEOPLE START DEBATING ISSUES, OBVIOUSLY SOME THAT SHOULDN'T EVEN BE DEBATING IN THE FIRST PLACE, BUT LOTS OF NASTINESS BECAUSE IT'S EASY, RIGHT AT THE FINGER TIPS, ON THE KEYBOARD AND JUST SO EASY TO WRITE SOMETHING THAT'S SEPARATED BY COMPUTER CABLES IN ANOTHER CITY, STATE, OR COUNTRY. AND THERE'S NO IMMEDIATE CONSEQUENCE IF LIKE YOU SAID IT TO SOMEBODY IN THEIR FACE. SIMILAR TO WHAT'S IN BOOKS. NOW, MANY OF US ARE GUILTY OF THAT. AND I'VE CERTAINLY FALLEN IN THAT REGARD, BECAUSE WE'RE ALL HUMAN. BUT LOOK TO ST. ROBERT WHO DID NOT. >> Fr. Pacwa: I MUST SAY THAT I AT ONE POINT GOT A TWITTER ACCOUNT. I HAVE NOT GONE BACK TO IT. I JUST LOOK AND SAY, THIS IS NOT A GOOD PLACE. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT I FIND HELPFUL OR USEFUL. AND I STAY OFF OF IT. I JUST DON'T DO BLOGS AND SUCH VERY MUCH AT ALL. IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THE RIGHT MEDIUM TO EXPRESS CHARITY. THE USE OF VARIOUS VULGARITIES SEEMS SO PROLIFIC THAT IT MIGHT AS WELL BE A COMMA USED IN PUNCTUATION, THE WAY PEOPLE USE IT. THAT'S MY IMPRESSION THE WAY SOME PEOPLE USE VULGARITIES, IT'S A PUNCTUATION POINT WHERE, YOU KNOW, INSTEAD, JUST DROP NASTY WORDS. THAT NEED FOR CHARITY IN DISCOURSE AND IN DIALOGUE WOULD BE SOMETHING WE COULD ASK ST. ROBERT TO PRAY FOR US, THAT THE LORD GOD WOULD GIVE US THAT GRACE. >> Guest: YEAH, I SHOULD THINK SO. THE HOLINESS OF HIS LIFE AND THIS IS ONE THING THAT YOU SEE, THEY SEE BOOKS AND THINGS THAT HE WROTE. SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE WAS ALSO A MYSTIC AND ATTAINED TRANSFORMING UNION. HE IS SEEN FROM THE EARLIEST PART OF HIS LIFE, GETTING UP EARLY, WHEN THERE'S NO ALARM CLOCKS TO GET YOU UP EARLY, AND ALSO HARD FOR A BOY, A YOUNG BOY. HE WOULD GET UP EARLY AND I SAY THE OFFICE OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY AND THE ROSARY AND DO THE TASKS HE WAS ASKED TO DO, AND DO HIS STUDIES AND IN THOSE DAYS WHICH BY NO MEANS WERE THEY EASY. IT WAS ALL LATIN. AND THAT WAS THE SCHOOLING, YOU LEARNED GRAMMAR, LOGIC, RHETORIC, THE CLASSICS. AND YOU WOULD LEARN HISTORY. AND ALL OF THESE THINGS WERE ALL CONNECTED AROUND THE STUDY OF LATIN. THIS IS FOR BOTH CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS. MOST PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THAT PROTESTANTS WROTE THEIR BOOKS IN LATIN AND THAT'S HOW THEY GOT THE INTERNATIONAL AUDIENCE. AND THE PROTESTANTS HAD SCHOOLS IN LATIN. THAT CONTINUED SOMEWHERE AROUND THE 18TH CENTURY AND VERNACULAR TRADITION STARTED TO TAKE OVER. BUT EVEN SO, THE UNIVERSITY OF PROVIDENCE RHODE ISLAND TAUGHT CLASSES IN LATIN UNTIL 1900. >> Fr. Pacwa: AND THE REASON FOR THAT IT WAS NOT JUST THAT THERE WAS GERMAN, FRENCH, SPANISH. WHEN YOU LEARNED GERMAN, YOU ACTUALLY LEARNED A DIALECT FROM YOUR PART OF GERMANY. SO, YOU MAY SPEAK ONE DIALECT THERE, ABOUT A VARAN OR PRUSSIAN BAA VARAN, AND YOU KNOW, SAME THING IN SPAIN, ALL OF THESE COUNTRIES HAVE DIFFERENT DIALECTS IN THESE LANGUAGES. AND LATIN WAS THE LANGUAGE THAT CUT ACROSS THE BOARD SO THAT THERE COULD BE INTERNATIONAL DISCOURSE. THAT WAS JUST THE REALITY OF THAT WORLD. AND IT WAS SUCCESSFUL. SO, HE STUDIED THAT LATIN AND HE PUBLISHED IN LATIN SO THAT HE COULD ADDRESS THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AS WELL. >> THAT'S RIGHT. AND WHEN THE CONTROVERSIES FIRST CAME OUT, IT WAS ACTUALLY MORE PROTESTANTS WERE READING THEM THAN SELECTION CATHOLICS. AND YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE INTERNET AND SUCH. YOU WOULD GO TO A BOOK FAIR WHICH I WAS HELD IN THIS OR THAT CITY. AND WHATEVER THEY HAD, YOU WOULD SEE, OH, THERE'S A NEW JESUIT PAPIST'S WORK THAT WE NEED TO LOOK INTO. AND THEY WOULD PICK UP THE CONTROVERSIES AND READ THEM. IT ALSO BROUGHT MASSIVE CONVERSIONS THROUGHOUT EUROPE. DOCTOR ANTHONY CARRIER, THE CHAPLAIN AT KING JAMES I, HE READ THE CONTROVERSIES AND THAT'S ABOUT AS GOOD AS YOU GET, ANGLICAN CLERGYMAN, YOU HAVE FAVOR UNLESS YOU MAKE A MISTAKE, YOU ARE PRETTY MUCH SET FOR LIFE. AND HE READS ROBERT BELLARMINE AND SAYS I CAN'T REFUTE THIS. AND HE MAKES HIS ACTIVE REUNION WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. AND THERE'S SIMILAR STORIES TO THAT, SO MANY OTHERS THAT WERE READ AND REMOVED. EVEN TODAY, I WILL GET AN EMAIL FROM HERE AND THERE, SOMEBODY MAKES A COMMENT ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND THEY SAY, I READ YOUR TRANSLATION OF ROBERT BELLARMINE AND IT WAS SO TRUE, SO I STUCK WITH RCIA. AND THEN I READ THIS BOOK SOMEBODY RECOMMENDED IT AND I WENT INTO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. SO, EVEN TODAY, ROBERT BELLARMINE IS WORKING CONTINUING TODAY FOR THE GOOD OF SOULS. >> Fr. Pacwa: YES. RIGHT. AND ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THAT, IN THE PAST 50 YEARS OR SO, WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF CATHOLICS LEAVING THE CHURCH AND OFTENTIMES GOING TO, SOMETIMES THEY BECOME NUNS, SOMETIMES THEY JOIN OTHER CHURCHES. TOO OFTEN -- THEY BECOME NONES. AND SOMETIMES THEY JOIN OTHER CHURCHES. YOU KNOW, THEY WERE LOOKING FOR COMMUNITY AND IF THEY WERE LOOKING FOR COMMUNITY, IT'S OKAY. BUT LOTS OF TIMES, IN FACT, THEY WERE LOOKING FOR REAL ANSWERS. YEAH, SOMETIMES THEY ARE LOOKING FOR PEOPLE THAT LIKE THEM. THEY WANT TO HAVE A PLACE THAT'S FRIENDLY. BUT THEY ALSO WANT REAL ANSWERS TO THEIR RELIGIOUS QUESTIONS. AND ST. ROBERT WAS SOMEONE WHO TOOK THE QUESTIONS. IN READING YOUR TRANSLATION FOR INSTANCE, YOU SEE HOW CAREFULLY HE KNEW WHAT THE OPPOSITION WAS SAYING AND THAT HE REFUTES IT, AS YOU POINTED OUT YOURSELF, HE REFUTES THEM ON THEIR TERMS; THAT IS, SHOWING FROM SCRIPTURE AND FROM THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH WHY CATHOLICISM IS TEACHING THE TRUTH AND WHY SOME OF THESE FOLKS ARE EITHER MISUNDERSTANDING, MISINTERPRETING OR EVEN FALSIFYING CATHOLIC DOCTRINE. AND HE GIVES THE EVIDENCE. AND PEOPLE NEED EVIDENCE TO THINK THROUGH THESE ISSUES AND NOT JUST HAVE A GOOD FEELING. IS THAT A FAIR ANALYSIS OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING? >> Guest: I WOULD SAY SO. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT, AS A YOUNG CATHOLIC, THERE WAS, AS A CONVERT, MORE OR LESS RAISED AGNOSTIC AND NOT ACTIVELY AGNOSTIC BUT DE FACTO AGNOSTIC, RELIGION WAS JUST NOT A THING THAT ANYBODY REALLY THOUGHT ABOUT DEALING WITH. CHURCH WHERE I WAS BAPTIZED. AND THEN MY MOTHER WAS WATCHING THIS VERY PROGRAM WITH MOTHER ANGELICA AND SHE HAD A DESIRE 0 TO COME BACK TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. AND SHE BROUGHT MY BROTHER AND I INTO THE CHURCH. OKAY. WE WERE TEENAGERS AND DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND MUCH ABOUT IT OR CARE MUCH ABOUT IT. BUT IT WAS A LENGTHIER PROCESS WHICH I WAS DRAWN MORE AND MORE TO THE TRADITION OF THE CHURCH. AS I LOOKED INTO THE TRADITION AND LOOKED IN A LOT OF PARISHES, THERE WERE A LOT OF THINGS THAT I THOUGHT, IT'S FUNNY, THERE'S A REAL FOCUS ON THE GOSPEL AND FORTUNATELY, WE HAD A VERY GOOD PRIEST THAT EXPLAINED THE GOSPEL STRAIGHT UP, HELPING TO FORM US IN THE TRADITION AND IT PREPARED ME FOR LOO LOOKING MORE TOWARD . AND IN BELLERMINE'S TIME, THERE WERE MASSIVE PROBLEMS IN THE CHURCH. NOT UNLIKE TODAY, CERTAINLY THERE WERE ABUSES IN THE LITURGY, ABUSES IN THE MUSIC ESPECIALLY. LOTS OF PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THAT. THERE WERE, BISHOPS DIDN'T LIVE IN THEIR OWN DIOCESE AT THE TIME. AND WHEN SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE TAKES OVER IN MILAN, THE BISHOP HAD NOT BEEN IN RESIDENT FOR 125 YEARS. AND SO MANY OF THE ECCLESIASTICAL INSTITUTIONS HAD GONE TO ROT, THE GOVERNMENT HAD TAKEN THEM OVER. AND LOTS OF THE ABUSES ARE WHAT CREATES THE SITUATION THAT GAVE RISE TO THE REFORMATION. PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR, OKAY. IT CAN'T REALLY BE LIKE THIS. THERE HAS TO BE MORE. AND LUTHER COMES AROUND. LUTHER IS ALREADY AT FAITH ALONE IN 1512 OR SO. PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THAT. THE MANUSCRIPTS WERE DISCOVERED IN THE 1530'S BUT HE ALREADY BELIEVES FAITH ALONE MUCH EARLIER. THE INDULGENCES GIVE HIM AN AUDIENCE AND NOW HE STARTS TO PUSH HIS UNDERSTANDING OF DOCTRINE ON THIS SUBJECT. SO, WHEN ULTIMATELY HE IS CONDEMNED BY POPE LEO ORR AND THE CHURCH -- POPE LEO X, AND YOU KNOW, IT'S PROVEN. IT'S NOT SO MUCH THE PROTECTOR, FREDERICK THE WISE, ELECTOR OF SAXONY AND HE HAD A CHURCH WITH THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF RELICS. WHO KNOWS HOW MANY WERE FRAUD LENGTH. BUT THERE'S NO WORD UNTIL HE'S DEAD. HE'S CITING THE WORK OF THE CATHOLIC REFORMERS WORKING IN THE FIELD SINCE 1515 HUNDREDS, JOHN CAPISTRANO, AND THERE WERE MORE ELEASTIAS CALORIE FORMERS. AS YOU GO INTO THE 15 HUNDREDS, THEN YOU SEE INDIVIDUALS LIKE SAINT JOHN FISHER, COMPLETELY REFORMING HIS CHURCH IN ENGLAND, HIS DIOCESE. ONE OF THE ONLY BISHOPS RESIDENT IN THE DIOCESE AND PREACHED TO THE PEOPLE AND BECAME A MODEL FOR WHAT A GOOD FORMING PRELATE WAS IN TERMS OF THE CATHOLIC REFORMATION. THIS WORK IS STARTING TO GET SIDE TRACKED TOWARD THIS NEW DOCTRINE AND SO FOR ST. ROBERT HE WAS RAISED, LIKE I SAID, WITH THIS CLASSICAL EDUCATION. AND WHEN HE FIRST BECAME A JESUIT IN 1560, JUST A FEW YEARS AFTER ST. IGNATIUS HAD DIED, HE FIRST SPENDS TIME IN PRAYER TO REPRORETREAT IN THE KITCHEN AND BEGINS THE ROMAN COLLEGE AND HE BASICALLY BEGINS STUDYING WHICH CONSUMES THE REST OF HIS LIFE. AND BASELY THAT WOULD BE JUST ARISTOTLE REALLY. BUT THEY SEND HIM OUT THROUGHOUT ITALY TEACHING AND PREACHING. AND LEGISLATION WAS NOT IN QLET SO YOU COULD GET AWAY WITH SENDING SOMEBODY OUT WHO WAS NOT EVEN ORDAINED. BUT IN ROBERT'S CASE IT WAS FANTASTIC BECAUSE HE WAS A GREAT PREACHER. AND WHENEVER ROBERT WAS AROUND, THE GOSPEL WAS ALIVE IN HIM AND PEOPLE WERE MOVED. THEY WOULD JUST FLOCK TO HEAR WHAT HE HAD TO SAY. AMONGST A VERY EDUCATED CROWD AND HERE'S A BOY, ABOUT 22, NO BEARD OR ORDERS, IN THE PULPIT. AND THEY FLOCKED TO THE CHURCH TO HEAR EVERYTHING HE PARTICULARLY HAD TO SAY. AND FOR THAT REASON, AFTER HE WAS LEARNING THEOLOGY FOR A WHILE HE WAS SENT TO BELGIUM, THEY WANTED HIM FROM TO SEEK LATIN. SO, IN BELGIUM THERE WAS SUCH A CONFLUENCE OF MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE, ENGLISH, DUTCH, SPANISH, ITALIAN, GERMAN, IT WAS A HUGE TRADING CITY. AND EVERYBODY HAD TO LEARN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF LATIN TO FUNCTION FOR TRADE AND FOR ALL OF THEIR DIFFERENT BUSINESSES. AND THESE LATIN TERMS WERE VERY POPULAR. BUT HOW MUCH LATIN THEY ACTUALLY KNEW TO UNDERSTAND THE LATIN IN BELLARMINE'S SERMONS, WE DON'T KNOW BUT IT WAS PACKED. WE KNOW THAT. THEY WERE STILL WRITING ABOUT THE EFFECT THAT SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE HAD THERE AS A SIMPLE PRIEST. NOW, THERE WAS ONE THAT WAS GIVEN, WHAT HE HAD WAS THE LOVE OF CHRIST. SOME JESUITS CAME TO JAPAN ABOUT 40 YEARS AFTER FRANCIS XAVIER, THEY LEARNED JAPANESE, THEY WERE INTERVIEWING PEOPLE AND THEY TOLD THE JESUIT FATHER, OH, WE REALLY NEVER KNEW WHAT HE WAS SAYING EXACTLY BUT WE KNEW WHATEVER IT WAS, IT WAS TRUE. AND THIS MAN WAS A MAN FROM GOD. WHATEVER IT HAPPENED TO BE. SO, IF YOU WERE BAPTIZED. AND ST. ROBERT IS VERY MUCH THE SAME WAY. YOU CAN SEE THAT LOVE OF CHRIST FROM HIM IN THE PULPIT. THAT'S WHAT KEPT BRINGING THEM THERE AND BRINGING ABOUT ALL OF THESE CONVERSIONS. >> Fr. Pacwa: THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT'S NEEDED IN EVERY PERIOD OF THE CHURCH. THAT WE PRIESTS HAVE TO COME TO CHRIST. OFTENTIMES THINK OF US BEING LIKE THE APOSTLES. WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO. WE HAVE A LOT OF LEARNING TO DO, CORRECTION THAT JESUS NEEDS TO DO IN OUR LIVES. BUT WE DO HAVE TO ALLOW THAT EXPERIENCE OF COMING TO FAITH IN HIM AND RECEIVING THE GIFT OF PENTECOST THAT CAN FIRE US TO PREACH LIKE SAINT PETER AND THE OTHER APOSTLES. NOW, RYAN, WE HAVE TO TAKE A BREAK AT THIS POINT. WE'LL COME BACK IN JUST A COUPLE OF MINUTES AND WE'LL CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION AND TALK A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THE BOOKS THAT YOU ARE MAKING AVAILABLE TO US AND WHY YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO BE GOOD FOR US TO READ THEM. SO, JUST STAY WITH US! [MUSIC] [MUSIC] >> ALL RIGHT. WE ARE CONTINUING OUR CONVERSATION ABOUT SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE AND THESE TRANSLATIONS. RYAN, FIRST OF ALL, CAN YOU GIVE US A LITTLE BIT OF, THE SCOPE OF WHAT ST. ROBERT WAS TRYING TO COVER IN THIS BOOK THAT HE CALLED THE CONTROVERSIES. WHAT'S THE OVERALL VISION THAT HE HAD? >> Guest: THE OVERALL VISION WAS ESSENTIALLY MADE THE NATURE OF AUTHORITY, WHAT IS OUR AUTHORITY AND HOW DO WE DISCOVER THAT DOWN TO THE RUDIMENTS OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE AND THE SOURCES OF GRACE AND HOW WE'RE SAVED IN THE END. SO, HE BEGINS WITH SCRIPTURE AND TRADITION, RIGHT. SO, THE CONTROVERSIES WERE BROKEN DOWN INTO FOUR LATER ON. AND THE SCRIPTURE IS, WHAT'S OUR AUTHORITY, IS SCRIPTURE THE JUDGE OF ALL CONTROVERSIES. AND FROM THERE, HE HAS THE VARIOUS QUESTIONS AND OTHER THINGS BUT CLEARLY THE CONCLUSION IS NO. HE TALKS ABOUT TRADITION THERE, THE ROLE THAT TRADITION PLAYS. ULTIMATELY SCRIPTURE CAN'T BE THE FINAL JUDGE OF CONTROVERSIES BECAUSE IT NEEDS A HUMAN INTERPRETER. IF ANYONE IS THE JUDGE OF CONTROVERSIES, IT'S GOING TO BE CHRIST, OF COURSE. WHICH IS THE NEXT BOOK THAT EXPLORES DIFFERENT QUESTIONS OF CRISTOLOGY AND OTHER THINGS. BUT ULTIMATELY, IS JUDGE THE, CHRIST THE JUDGE OF CONTROVERSIES. YES. HOWEVER, HE'S NOT PRESENT ON EARTH THE SAME WAY THAT HE WAS PRIOR TO THE ASCENSION. SO, HE DOESN'T JUDGE CONTROVERSIES IN HIS OWN PERSON PRESENT AS HE WAS TO THE APOSTLES. RATHER, HE DOES IT THROUGH HIS VICAR WHICH LEADS TO THE THIRD BOOK IN THE FIRST VOLUME, ON THIS SUPREME P PONTIFF, THE FIVE BOOKS THERE, PROVING ONE, THERE'S SUCH A THING AS A PAPAL MONARCHY. PETER HAS THAT. AND BOOK TWO, PETER WENT TO ROME. PETERED SUCCESSORS. BOOK THREE, THE POPE IS NOT THE ANTI-CHRIST. 30,000 WORDS TO TALK ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR SUBJECT BECAUSE IT WAS THE ONE ECUMENICAL PROTESTANT DOCTRINE THAT THE LUTHERANS, PROTESTANTS, CALL VEINS, ALL OF THEM COULD AGREED ON THAT. SO HE HAD TO SPEND A LOT OF TIME SAYING THINGS ABOUT THAT, THE SCRIPTURES AND WHAT SCHOLARS SAY ABOUT IT. THE POPE IS NOT THE ANTI-CHRIST AS PROPHESIED IN THE WRITINGS. NOW, BOOK FIVE, THIS IS THE SMALLEST ONE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK BUT THE ONE THAT CAUSES ROBERT BELLARMINE THE MOST TROUBLE BOTH DURING AND AFTER HIS LIFE. ANY WAY. ON THE COUNCIL, HE PROCEEDS TO ECCLESIOLOGY AND THE COUNCIL THERE, WE KNOW THAT THE AUTHORITY IS THE POPE. WHERE DOES THAT AUTHORITY DESCEND DOWNWARD. THE COUNCIL IS NEXT, WHAT THE UTILITY IS, HOW THEY WERE EXERCISED HISTORICALLY. HE MOVES FURTHER TO THE CHURCH MILITANT. IF THESE GUYS ARE GOVERNING THE CHURCH, WHAT IS THE CHURCH? THIS IS ALSO VERY IMPORTANT IN THE TERMS OF THE ECCLESIOLOGY. YOU GET TO THE MARKS ON THE CHURCH. WHAT'S THE TRUE CHURCH HOW IS IT KNOWN, WHAT ARE THE SIGNS OF IT. AND THEN HE MOVES ON. THESE ARE NOT TRANSLATED YET. CLERGY, SPECIFIC MEMBERS MEMBES OF THE CHURCH. CLERGY, LAITY, AND MONKS. AND THINK THAT THE ONE ON LAITY WAS TRANSLATED BY SOMEBODY QUITE A WHILE BACK IN FACT. THEN HE PROCEEDS TO PURGATORY, CANONIZATION, SACRAMENTS, AND IN THE SECOND VOLUME, THE NEXT VOLUME. AND FINALLY, THE FINAL VOLUME, THE QUESTION OF ORIGINAL SIN, JUSTIFICATION, GOOD WORKS, GRACE, ET CETERA. SO, THAT'S THE WHOLE SCOPE. HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT THE AUTHORITY IS. WHAT'S THE ROLES OF THOSE PARTICULAR ORGANS OF AUTHORITY. WHAT'S THE CHURCH. HOW IS THE CHURCH SANCTIFIED. THE SACRAMENTS. AND FINALLY, HOW IS THE CHURCH SAVED. THE WHOLE PROCESS OF JUSTIFICATION, ET CETERA. >> Fr. Pacwa: WHAT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR OUR VIEWERS TO NOTE IS THAT MOST OF THESE ISSUES RECUR IN PRESENT TIMES BY PRESENT DAY WRITERS WHO CONTINUE TO TEACH. FOR INSTANCE, THAT THE POPE IS THE ANTI-CHRIST. THERE ARE LOTS OF FOLKS STILL WRITING ABOUT THAT. LOTS OF FOLKS WHO ARE TRYING TO SAY THAT IT'S SCRIPTURE ALONE, AND NOT SCRIPTURE AND TRADITION WITH THE NEED OF AN INTERPRETING MAGISTERIUM. THEY TAKE FOR GRANTED, THEY ARE THE MAGISTERIUM BUT THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO THEMA TIES. AND WHY DO WE HAVE SOME PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF DOING THE INTERPRETATION AND NOT OTHERS, AND SO ON. THESE, THE ISSUES THAT YOU BRING UP ARE STILL HOT BUTTON ISSUES. AND ALSO, IN TERMS OF THE STRUCTURE OF THE CHURCH, POPES, COUNCIL, CLERGY, LAITY AND CALL. I CAN EXPLICITLY REMEMBER THE DISCUSSIONS BY CATHOLIC THEOLOGIANS WHO REJECTED BELLARMINE'S IDEAS WHAT THEY CALLED THE PURE MIDDLE CHURCH, POPE AT THE TOP GOING DOWN TO THE LAITY. AND THEY WERE FIGHTING AGAINST BELLARMINE SPECIFICALLY WITHOUT -- AS FAR AS I KNOW -- WITHOUT HAVING ACTUALLY READ HIM AND CERTAINLY NOT MAKING BELLARMINE'S ARGUMENTS AVAILABLE TO THOSE OF US STUDYING UNDER THEM. SO, THESE TOPICS ARE STILL HOT BUTTON ISSUES. AND WE VERY MUCH, THINK NEED WHAT YOU ARE DOING. WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND HIS INSIGHTS AS WELL AS, YOU KNOW, TO GET OTHERS, SAINTS AS WELL. BUT HE'S VERY HELPFUL. >> Guest: HE IS CERTAINLY, I THINK. AND PART OF THE PROBLEM, WELL, EVERYBODY LOVES TO BLAME VATICAN II. I DON'T WANT TO BLAME VATICAN II BUT AFTER THE COUNCIL, YOU HAVE THIS DEVELOP, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT THE DOCUMENTS SAY. TRUTH CHANGED. THERE'S A NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE BOOKS FROM THEOLOGIANS, IN LATIN, BECAUSE THE LIBRARIES, SEMINARIANS AND RELIGIOUS ORDERS SAID, OH, TRUTH CHANGED AND THEY TOSSED THEM IN THE DUMPSTER. AND WE DON'T NEED THESE THINGS ANY MORE. THAT'S ALL PRE VAT VATICAN II S. SO, THAT'S NOT WHAT THE COUNCIL SAID. THAT'S NOT WHAT THE BISHOPS GOING INTO THE COUNCIL MEANT TO DO. BUT THAT'S THE ATTITUDE THAT MANY TOOK FOLLOWING THE COUNCIL. AND AS A RESULT OF THAT IS A CONNECT. SO, THOSE WHO CAME AFTER HAVE A DISCONNECT. THEY HAVEN'T BEEN GIVEN THE TRADITION, THE TRADITION IN THEOLOGY WHERE THE SOURCES OF THEOLOGY IN SO MANY DIFFERENT WORKS AS WELL AS SAINT ALPHONSUS, MORAL THEOLOGY, IT'S ANOTHER PROJECT THAT I'M WORKING ON. AND SO THERE'S SO MANY THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE DISCONNECTED TO. YOU GO BACK TO THE CONTROVERSY AND EVEN CATHOLICS NOW SUGGESTING THAT, THAT THE POPE IS THE ANTI-CHRIST. [ [LAUGHTER] >> Guest: SADLY. BUT THERE'S SO MANY THINGS THAT THEOLOGIANS, THAT WE SAW IN THE PANDEMIC. GERMAN THEOLOGIANS CAME OUT SAID 0 PRIVATE MASS IS NOT WHAT IS IN ACCORD TODAY. AND ROBERT BELLARMINE TELLS HISTORICALLY HOW PRIVATE MASSES ARE THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH FROM THE BEGINNING. AND THEY SEND A PRIEST IN NORTHERN AFRICA TO FREE IT FROM DIABOLIC OBSESSION AND THERE'S NOBODY AT THE MASS EXCEPT FOR ST. AUGUSTINE. AND THEN FORMERLY HOW THE COUNCIL OF TRENT SAYS, EVEN WHEN THE PRIEST SAYS IT HIMSELF IT'S NOT TRULY PRIVATE BECAUSE HE'S A PUBLIC MINISTER. AND IT'S FUNNY WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ARGUMENTS THAT ROBERT BELLARMINE CITES AGAINST LUTHER AND OTHER ARGUMENTS FOR PRIVATE MASSES, AND SOMEHOW, THE THEOLOGIANS COMING AROUND NOW AGAINST THE PANDEMIC THE ARGUMENTS ARE THE SAME THING. >> Fr. Pacwa: I FIND IT REALLY, REALLY ODD TO SAY THE LEAST THAT GERMAN THEOLOGIANS WHO COME FROM A COUNTRY WHERE PRIESTS HAD TO HIDE FROM THE NATIONAL SOCIALISTS AND CELEBRATE MASS SOMETIMES PRIVATELY, SECRETLY. THAT WAS WHAT THEY HAD TO DO FOR A WHILE. AND IT WAS NOT BECAUSE OF A PANDEMIC FROM A VIRUS. IT WAS BECAUSE OF NATIONAL SOCIALISTS LED BY ADOLF HITLER. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I FIND APPALLING. BUT I DIGRESS. SORRY. >> Guest: THAT'S ALL RIGHT. SO, WITH THE CONTROVERSY AS WE TALKED EARLIER, THE REAL MEAT OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, DEVOTION, AND TRADITION. SO, BELLARMINE'S METHODOLOGY IN ANY CONTROVERSY TO PICK UP IS ALWAYS TO GO BACK TO SCRIPTURE. NOT NECESSARILY THE FIRST THING. NOT WRITTEN IN A SCHOL ASSISTIC STYLE. BELLARMINE WAS TAUGHT SCHOL ASSISTICKS AND THEN, RUNNING THE SCHOOL IN JUVEN, AND HE HAD MANY PROTESTANT AUTHORS. IT WAS A DIFFICULT BUSINESS BECAUSE HE CAN CAN ONLY DO IT IN THE SUPERIOR'S ROOM AND THEY WERE UNDER STRICT CONTROLS. HE'S READING LUTHER, CALVIN DIRECTLY, ALL OF THE EARLY PROTESTANT WRITERS. AND HE REMEMBERS WHAT THEY SAID. HE HAD A PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY AND HE ONLY READS IT ONCE AND PRETTY MUCH REMEMBERS IT FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. HE TOLD A FELLOW JESUIT THAT HE COULD READ, MEMORIZE A SERMON OF ABOUT AN HOUR'S LENGTH BY READING IT OVER ONCE. AND THE WORKS OF THE PROTESTANTS, IT WAS Y EASY TO REMEMBER WHAT THEY SAID, HE MADE VARIOUS NOTES. AND THERE WAS ONE MORE THING THAT HE DID IN LUVAN, AFTER HE LEARNED HEBREW, HE TOOK ON A PROJECT CALLED [FOREIGN NAME] AND HE ASKED ALL OF THE WRITERS THAT WROTE FROM BC1500 TO AD, AND THEY SAID THIS GUY IS AN IDIOT OR JUST A GENIUS. AND IT WAS THE LATTER, OF COURSE. HE WAS LOOKING AT THE WRITERS, THE DIFFERENT QUESTIONS IN THE FATHERS AND THE EARLY QUESTIONS. AND THEN HE DEALS WITH THE EARLY FATHERS AND HE MADE A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK TEXT CRITICISMS, LIKE RECENT 19TH CENTURY THING. BUT HE HAS IN 16TH CENTURY, BELLARMINE IS ONE OF THE PRACTITIONERS, NOT THE EYE OF DOUBT BUT THE EYE OF FAITH. CAN IT BE PROVED THAT IT'S TRUE, NOT THAT IT'S FALSE. SO, IN MUCH OF HIS WORK -- NOT ALL, BECAUSE EVERYBODY IS HUMAN -- BUT MUCH OF HIS WORK IS VINDICATED THAT THIS TEXT BELONGS TO THIS FATHER, THIS ONE TO THIS FATHER. AND NOT SO MUCH THIS ONE, COUPLE OF THINGS WERE MISSED. AND THIS WAS ACTUALLY, HE WROTE THE WORKS ATTRIBUTED TO HIM AND NOW MODERN SCHOLARSHIP IS PRETTY MUCH UNANIMOUS THAT IT WAS NOT. SO, YOU HAVE A LITTLE MINOR BLIP LIKE THAT. BUT NOW, ROBERT BELLARMINE, HE HAD ALMOST PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORIES OF THE FATHERS. IN THOSE DAYS YOU MIGHT BE JUST LEARNED IN ONE FATHER OR ANOTHER ONE, MAYBE JUST ST. AUGUSTINE, MAYBE ONE LATIN OR ONE GREEK, AND YOU KNOW ST. AUGUSTINE AND JOHN CHRYSOSTOM AND THEN YOU MAY KNOW TWO OTHERS, SAY. BUT KNOWING SO MANY OF THE FATHERS WAS REALLY UNIQUE AND WHEN HE WAS RECALLED TO ROME, POPE GREGORY XIII ACTUALLY GOT ON THE SUPERIOR AQUA VIVES, AND WE'VE HEARD GREAT THINGS GET HIM DOWN HERE. AND THEN THAT BECAME THE CONTROVERSY. HE COULD JUST GO PUT A HEADING ON THE BOARD. PAPACY. SACRAMENTS. EUCHARIST. ET CETERA. HE COULD ACCURATELY RELATE WHAT THE PROTESTANTS HAVE DONE. AND FURTHER, WHAT THE FATHERS TAUGHT. SO, CLEARLY YOU COULD SEE WHAT THE TRADITION OF THE CHURCH WAS ON ALL OF THESE POINTS. THAT'S WHAT COMES INTO THE CONTROVERSY. SO HE ALWAYS BEGINS IT WITH SCRIPTURE AND LAYS OUT THE PROTESTANT ARGUMENT AND PROCEED TO THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE IN GENERAL. WHAT'S THE GREEK AND LATIN FATHERS THINK ABOUT IT. AND HE WOULD ARRANGE THESE CITATIONS FROM THE GREEK AND LATIN FATHERS, SOMETIMES JUST IN A CHAPTER OR A WHOLE SECTION AND START ANSWERING ALL OF THE OBJECTIONS AND ACCURATELY, COMPLETELY. AND VERY EFFECTIVELY. WE NOTE THAT HAD WITH ALL OF THE CONVERSIONS. AND ONE OF THE MORE INTERESTING WORKS IS HIS WORK ON THE PAPACY ACTUALLY WHICH IS VERY LENGTHY, VERY LARGE BOOK. THINK MY PUBLICATION RUNS ABOUT 700 PAGES OF IT. AND IN THAT WORK, LIKE I SAID, HE TAKES ON THE QUESTION OF THE PAPAL MONARCHY AND DOING SOLID EXEGESIS ON MATTHEW 16:18, AND MANY OTHER PASSAGES OF SCRIPTURE THAT DEAL WITH THE SUBJECT. HE'S CONTINUES ON THE SUCCESSORS OF PETER GOING TO THE FATHERS SHOWING THAT PETER ACTUALLY DID GO TO ROAM. AND THERE WAS A PROTESTANT VALINAS, AND HE ARGUED THAT PETER NEVER WENT TO ROME SO THE WHOLE BASIS OF THE PAPACY WAS WRONG. WELL, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THAT'S AN ARGUMENT PICKED UP TODAY. >> Fr. Pacwa: ABSOLUTELY. YOU HEAR IT REGULARLY. >> Guest: RIGHT. YES. AND SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE VIRSER EIGHTHS THAT ARGUMENT IN THE TESTIMONY OF THE FATHERS TO PROVE THAT THEY WERE IN FACT THERE. SO, EVEN EXEGESIS SHOWS, THERE'S A GREAT LINE, WHERE PETER IN THE SECOND EPISTLE SALUTES THE BRETHREN FROM BABYLON. HE SAYS, COME ON, YOU SAY EVERYWHERE THIS IS HORROR OF BABYLON. SO, WHY COULDN'T HE BE SALUTING FROM BABYLON IF THIS IS SO. >> Fr. Pacwa: IF THE HORROR OF BABYLON, I LIKE TO POINT OUT, THIS IS A CITY THAT SITS ON SEVEN HILLS. WELL, THAT COULD BE ATHENS, OR JERUSALEM, OR SAN FRANCISCO, OR SCINCINNATI AND CINCINNATI HAS SIN IN THE NAME TWICE. SO, I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL! BUT ONE OF THE THINGS TOO IS THAT FOR FOLKS TO UNDERSTAND THAT VATICAN HILL IS NOT ONE OF THE SEVEN HILLS OF ROME. IT IS ACROSS THE RIVER. SO, IF THE HORROR OF BABYLON IS ROME AND THE CITY ON SEVEN HILLS GETS DESTROYED, VATICAN CITY IS WATCHING FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TIBRE RIVER. SO, NONE OF THE FOLKS THINKS THAT THE POPE IS SEATED ON THE SEVEN HILLS OF BABYLON. HE WAS THERE. AND ARCHEOLOGY AS YOU POINTED IT OUT, I GOT TO SEE THE SCAVI TOUR UNDER SAINT PETER'S AND THAT'S WHERE SAINT PETER'S TOMB WAS. SO, ROBERT BELLARMINE WAS CORRECT. >> Guest: PRECISELY. AND THEN THERE WAS A POINT ABOUT THE ANTI-CHRIST. HE MAKES IT IN BOOK THREE. AND I SELL THAT ONE SEPARATE, THE WORK ON THE ANTI-CHRIST, THE SEAT OF THE ANTI-CHRIST ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES AND THE FATHERS IS NOT GOING TO BE ROME. IT'S GOING TO BE JERUSALEM. AND HE USES THE VERSE WHERE CHRIST SAYS, YOU WON'T RECEIVE ME NOW BUT YOU WILL RECEIVE HIM WHO COMES AFTER ME. AND THE FATHERS INTERPRET THAT, AT LEAST ACCORDING TO THEIR THINKING, I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH CREDENCE THEOLOGIANS GIVE THIS TODAY, BUT THE JEWS THEMSELVES WILL BE FOOLED BY THE ANTI-CHRIST AND THEN THEY WILL BE CONVERTED, SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE ARGUES AND FROM ESCHATOLOGICAL ENOCH AND ANOTHER THING THAT THEY COME BACK. AND I KNOW THAT A NUMBER OF THEOLOGIANS DON'T ACCEPT THAT OR FIND THAT PARTICULARLY COMPELLING OR INTERESTING. BUT IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE FATHERS HELD CLOSELY. AND WHO KNOWS IF IT DOESN'T HAPPEN TO BE TRUE. WE'LL SEE. >> IN FACT, YOU SEE A LOT OF EVANGELICALS SUPPORTING THIS STATE OF ISRAEL PRECISELY SO THAT THE ISRAELIS WOULD REBUILD THE TEMPLE AS THE SCENERY FOR THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST. THEY WANT THE ANTI-CHRIST TO BE ABLE TO GO TO THE JEWISH TEMPLE. SO THEY WANT ISRAEL TO BUILD THE TEMPLE AS PART OF THAT BACKGROUND. SO, MANY ON THAT POINT, MANY OF THE EVANGELICALS AGREE WITH THE FATHERS AND WITH SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE. >> Guest: RIGHT. BOOK FOUR WAS A LOT OF THE GROUND WORK FOR VATICAN 1. THIS IS ON THE POPE'S SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY AND THAT HE'S INFALLIBLE IN TEACHING OF FAITH AND MORALS AND CERTAIN MATTERS NOT DEVELOPED YET. THE USE OF THE TERM MAGISTERIUM, THESE ARE PHRASES THAT WE GET IN VATICAN 1 THAT DESCRIBES A REALITY WHICH IS MUCH OLDER. ROBERT BELLARMINE DOESN'T MAKE THOSE PARTICULAR DISTINCTIONS. WHAT HE DOES DO, SHOWS AGAIN, FATHERS AND THE SCRIPTURE, AND TRADITION, WHEN THE POPE SPEAKS ON THESE MATTERS AS MUCH AS WHAT IS LAID OUT, HE DOES NOT ENJOY INFALLIBILITY. GOES ON TO MORE ISSUES AND MOST OF THOSE BECOME THE FRAMEWORK THAT VATICAN 1 WORK ON THIS, IT'S FOR THE ARGUMENT. AND THEN YOU GET TO BOOK 5 WHICH IS WHAT GOT ROBERT BELLARMINE IN THE MOST TROUBLE THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE. AND FOR ALL DIFFERENT REASONS, IT WAS ON THE TEMPORAL AUTHORITY OF THE POPE AND THIS IS, LIKE PEOPLE TODAY SAY, OH, THAT'S A DEAD LETTER WHO CARES. BUT HE ARGUES THAT THE POPE DOESN'T HAVE A DIRECT AUTHORITY ON THE EARTH EXCEPT AT THAT TIME IN THE PAPAL STATES. BUT HE DOES HAVE INDIRECT TEMPORAL AUTHORITY THAT HE MAY EXERCISE PRUDENTLY FOR THE SAKE OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH, THUS, THE EXCOMMUNICATION OF A MONARCH OR THE DEPOSITION OF A MONARCH BECAUSE HE FAILED TO UPHOLD THE CATHOLIC FAITH OR COMMITTING HORRIBLE ACTS AGAINST CATHOLIC FAITH FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY. THERE'S A LOT OF DEBATE AT THAT POINT STILL. BUT AT THE TIME, IT CAUSED POPE SIXTH US THE V, MUCH STRONGER ITALIAN TEMPLE THAN ROBERT BELLARMINE EVER HAD. AND HE WAS A CANONIST, AND RECANT VISTS ARE AN ODD SOURCE. AND THEY THOUGHT THAT THE POPE HAS DIRECT AUTHORITY OVER THE ENTIRE EARTH AND THEREFORE, HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO CONTROL EVERY ONE, EVERY KING IS HIS VASSAL AND NOT JUST ROBERT BELLARMINE, BUT MEDIEVAL, THE FOUNDER OF THE SCHOOL OF SALLA MANNINGA HELD THE SAME POSITION. AND ROBERT BELLARMINE IS AWAY ON A MISSION IN FRANCE, AND HE'S ONLY GETTING WHAT'S GOING ON SECONDHAND AND LATER ONTO. SO, THE WORK OF THE CONTROVERSIES ARE THERE AND IT STAYS THERE, THE NEXT POPE URBAN VII GETS IT OUT OF THERE, TAKES IT OFF THE INDEX FOR THE SHORT TIME IT WAS THERE. AND THE OTHER REASON HE GETS IN TROUBLE FOR THIS, VARIOUS MONARCHS, ESPECIALLY THE FRENCH AND OTHERS, THEY DON'T LIKE THE IDEA THAT THE POPE HAS AN INDIRECT TEMPORAL CONTROVERSY. THEY ARE -- SOVEREIGNTY. T.THIRD MADE -- THEY ARE MAD OVR THERE THAT. AND THERE WERE EXEGETICAL ARGUMENTS THAT HE MAKES THAT YOU ARE SEEING TODAY, FROM APOLOGISTS THAT ROBERT BELLARMINE SYNTHESIZED AND PUT TOGETHER. >> Fr. Pacwa: UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE GETTING CLOSE TO THE END WHICH I REGRET. AND THIS IS A GREAT CONVERSATION AND I WOULD LIKE TO ENCOURAGE FOLKS TO TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR VOLUME ON THE MASS. BECAUSE SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE, AGAIN, YOU ARE JUST TRANSLATING IT BUT IT'S A SIGNIFICANT TRANSLATION. BUT SAINT ROBERT BELLARMINE IS DOING A WONDERFUL JOB OF EXPLAINING A LOT OF THE OBJECTIONS OF THE MASS THAT TODAY WE STILL NEED BECAUSE OF MISINTERPRETATION OF VATICAN II WITHIN THE CHURCH AND MISINTERPRETATIONS FROM OUTSIDE OF THE MASS. AND THESE ARE ALL VERY GREAT THINGS. I HOPE THAT FOLKS IN OUR AUDIENCE WOULD LOOK TO GET SOME OF THESE BOOKS. I BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE IN OUR CATALOGUE, ewtnRC.com AND WE ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO FOLLOW THIS. I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR DOING THE HARD WORK. TRANSLATION IS LONELY. SOMETIMES IT'S VERY TEDIOUS WORK. SO, I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU HAVE DONE. I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US TODAY. IT'S REALLY A GREAT GIFT. I ALSO WOULD LIKE TO GIVE A BLESSING TO ALL OF YOU. MAY ALMIGHTY GOD BLESS YOU, KEEP YOU, AND CAUSE HIS FACE TO SHINE UPON YOU IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN. WE CAN BRING GUESTS TO YOU LIKE RYAN AND ALL OF THE OTHER GUESTS THAT WE HAVE ONLY BECAUSE OF YOUR SUPPORT. WE ASK YOU TO CONTINUE TO DO AS YOU HAVE DONE, KEEP US IN BETWEEN YOUR GAS BILL, ELECTRIC BILL, AND CABLE BILL AND WE'RE ABLE TO PAY OUR BILLS AND BRING YOU GREAT GUESTS LIKE THIS. GOD BLESS YOU AND THANK YOU [MUSIC]
