EP-8 | Arnab Goswami, Founder, Owner and Editor in chief of the Republic Media Network

now as far as the absolute incident which you are speaking about which is the moment of the arrest you have seen about it you've seen it on television I'm sure but you've seen perhaps one percent of it that's a period of my life I have not spoken about in detail pushing me with the butt of their weapons hitting me in the crotch yeah physically assaulting me thrashing me through the way right not even letting me wear my shoes locking me up in the loo of a jail doing things which are unbelievable if I did not compromise in 2011 when the entire Congress Government tried to put pressure on me when I was the editor of times you know then why would I compromise now this was physical and I podcast with Smitha prakash today my guest is controversy's favorite child arnab goswami joining me in this podcast is my colleague ishan prakash who began his career 12 years ago in Tribune and then under arnab goswami in times now Arnav thank you very much for coming to our studio uh it feels a little odd me asking you the questions you are the one who's always asking questions but uh you know when we started this podcast it was everybody's first comment on the on YouTube and on on all the other channels is when you're getting outnam when you're getting on remember even when I was starting it I was like okay so now you are this journalist who I have not seen anybody having such a huge fan following at the same time there is so much of Envy hate jealousy and adoration how does that rest on your shoulders it's not resting I don't know I don't say I've been away for too long from lutein's Deli so I left this city um 2004. it's been 18 years it's a long time you know so when I come back I come back like today you know once a month once in two months I hear these things here because when I'm in Mumbai I don't hear anything I'm literally in my Newsroom so the conversation does not happen where I am so it doesn't affect me and where I am it's home and Studio home and studio so I don't have much time to think about all these things these are the things I hear about when I come here but you do know you do know that you know you I mean wherever you go there are like so many people who come around you asking for selfies and then you are like in social media also hero worshiped as well as like that you're the man who broke the news there's been a lot of conversation there's been a lot of conversation when it first happened when when around 20078 you know when the conversation sort of began to increase around around may not where I was working for it was a new thing but 2009 10 sort of it it settled and then I realized that I don't I don't need to think much about the conversation I need to do my job so I do my job and yeah that's it there's not much to think about so uh let me start from the beginning did you did you ever think you know a young lad in guwahati growing up and then after that contourment life and then Delhi University you even written about it about your life in Delhi University and do you think that you know you would reach the Pinnacle of television news in India no way no no way I never thought I'd reached the Pinnacle of anything it was more about you know doing well enough I guess you know being above average and then plodding along floating along you know these things are accidental this is what you call success is ephemeral accidental occasional and one shouldn't take it too seriously because then you begin to have what I call an exaggerated sense of self-importance you know you believe you are born for success I have no such pretentions so I think it's okay I have never planned anything I didn't even plan to be a journalist it's just one thing leads to the other and you sort of move along you do the best when I first met you 27 28 years ago you know you and your wife both of you whenever young journalists you know starting out in life and things even then I didn't even in my wildest dreams I didn't think you were one of those ambitious ones you know you you're kind of like going through life both of you getting your uh you know uh understanding what TV journalism was you joined star NDTV thought that yahi paid like other journalists in NDTV 25 26 years no I never thought of nickel it is that you know I have always I have always just been the kind who sort of has moved from one thing to the other uh I did want to learn how to run a TV channel because I I thought how complicated is it really you know what goes into it so I was a keen Observer I used to observe how things go beyond what I do I was interested in the bigger picture so I wasn't very taken with my byline I wasn't very taken with my PS2 camera so I was interested in the big picture so I'm always eager to understand how the how the operations run how the organization runs how the back end runs and and that is what I actually learned a lot and when I when I picked up a lot but nothing extraordinary Smitha you know there is no narrative to my story it is just that you know I came into Delhi after my after my college I came back to Delhi I did my job stayed here nine years left went to Bombay in the 18 years that's it no yeah I wanted to see this humility now I mean it is can you give us a timeline of just your career how it began my time yes because you know there are a lot of people who just know you in this iteration or that way and how you moved into television how you took a leadership role in television you know if you can just expand on the background no no I'm getting it and you know Smitha is getting it wrong she's thinking I'm trying to be unnecessarily humble I'm just trying to figure out if there is a narrative of the kind she's trying to seek there is one will come to that we'll come we'll start no she was asking me is there a is there a was there a great grand plan or was there as you call it a grand strategy no I don't think yeah so what I'm doing there wasn't I mean there wasn't much good things happen sometimes bad things happen and you go along with it and sometimes you are also in the right place at the right time it's a function of all of that so you you're telling me about the chronology yes chronology is simple see uh my I'll take you even further beyond my father was in the Army he's uh he's from he was from The Madras suppers and so I grew up in various cantonments non-contournaments change seven schools finally I was in Delhi in Mount Saint Mary's did my CSC did my cbse from Kendra vidyalaya jabalpur came back here did three years in Hindu College stayed in North Campus two years in the hostel got lucky got a scholarship went to Oxford did a masters in social anthropology came back 94. and didn't quite figure what one needs to do realized that I was not I didn't have the qualifications for academic job for a full-time academic job so I had options of doing a PhD I had I I was in that track to do a PhD but that would require me to commit five six years so I thought I'd be I'd be in my late 20s by the time I finished I opted out of that kept it on hold came back came to Delhi couldn't find the right job met swapan dasgupta in Express with chandan Mitra and Hindustan times you know uh very helpful way you had an inkling that journalism is your calling no it was the only thing I thought I could do okay you know I mean it's the I wasn't qualified for anything else at that time I had I had a postgraduate degree in some in Social anthropology okay you know so the there wasn't any there was a there's no career track to be very crucial degree yeah so I didn't have a track yeah so yeah so I mean then I thought that okay we'll try out in journalism print journalism was the only thing right couldn't get the right job in Delhi I hung around here for two to three months went around almost to all the offices got through some places God but didn't get the break so they got to went to Calcutta I remember swapantha's Gupta told me sitting in the Express office he was Deputy editor he said you won't get the right break here you go there and chandan Mitra told me that son you uh what have you just studied I said I've studied social anthropology so he said you you write a piece for me uh op-ed or editorial piece on uh your interpretation of caste which was at that point of time a big issue in politics so I wrote a piece he I remember him telling me he's very academic because I had I had that was your background it was my background so if someone told me about cast I would think about Louis dumo uh French structural Theory my whole interpretive understanding of Castro's academic and as a young person you are what you are you've come straight from the campus so then he said that with all of this you go to a telegraph because he said you'll get a job I got a job in Telegraph I was put in the editorial page and so I hung around there for about a year a little under a year yeah then I came back yeah I started looking for opportunities here the one option was to go back into Academia that has always been my life story you know go back to Academia but again I came back here I got a couple of jobs and uh um what date are we looking at right now 90 93 I think no 94 95 by now it's 95 and I got a job same day in two places one one was Outlook Outlook where I met padmananja I didn't get to meet vinoda I met padmananja it was a virtual offer not a hand like a not a letter I got but he said I'll give you an offer and then I met upper Menon at NDTV oh okay and somehow I liked open a lot he was very nice yeah you know so I was not sure I didn't know Delhi much so I felt very I found him very warm and he took a great interest in me so I met him I met Bruno and radhika I think very briefly here and you were on beach journalism immediately yeah yeah I mean I didn't even know what I was doing I remember I no no no nothing I remember I I was taken to do you know as assistant some reporters to go and see how stories happened yeah yeah I did that but could you tell that TV was going to be the future was what was that conversation being had because Zee TV had entered ETV had entered you know the market in the mid to early late 90s at that NDTV was already established there archduck was also there and the TV was in English and it was already established by then I occasionally felt that the stories have impact occasionally television occasionally so I found the occasion when the story is at impact but the stories were not aimed at having any impact the stories were aimed at completing is it 24 minutes on a bulletin right there was no passion there was no heart it was structure so you know what I mean run down you know it was a standard rundown yeah so I wasn't if you ask me was I very thrilled at what I was doing I wasn't but I like the chase you know I like meeting people I like going to party offices I like meeting people I liked having chats um and you re-imagine news when you went two times now the entire model that you created did not exist at all there were several channels then already and when you did times now you we saw a different kind of News Bulletin a News Bulletin not seen so far on any Hindi or English Channel so what what did you want to do I mean here was this the anchor who was a participant in everything you changed uh actually if you look back Smita at the last my last nine months at NDTV was a time when I was first given my own show it was called news night it was at 8 30. and that show if you if you check with anyone in that time because viewership I think it started getting measured somewhere but it had a compelling audience because what I did was I just did a debate and there was no debate there was this easy kind of consensus we all like each other let's meet tomorrow how what do you think what do I think this is rather fake and artificial attempt at uh putting People Like Us in a studio and then having a chat um I have come from an academic world so I find that that the fakeness of it the fake intellectual pretensions I I I'm not very fond of them uh so I taken a break to go back to Cambridge after I was at Oxford I spent time I I wrote a book by 2003 when NDTV started I got a show otherwise I would have quit by then but uh that showed it exceptionally well because because I realized that there needs to be conflict for any conversation to be true and ideas generation and what no there needs to be there needs to be different perspectives yeah and the perspectives need not coalesce into something there needs to be a diversity of opinion and we must not be afraid of that you know it's just like when I was in school I was a very very good debater and I always found debating far more exciting than elocution and I found if you ask me what I what I really did to television I turned a constant elocution competition into a debate that's what I did but those last nine months on news night was was very exciting for me because because uh Smitha I would I would get the guess I would I would write the script I would uh I would think it through I would think of the structure of the debate I would think of the four or five five points of the debate because you see Smita I am a professional debater I have been one of the best Debaters in school in college that's all I do well I do nothing else will my academic degrees are just now I don't know as well so the point is I turned that I turned my passion into a subject yeah but again after those the sheer process of launching times now uh raising investment four times now building a channel from scratch construction stage onwards recruiting it was thrilling from a organizational learning point of view but I didn't quite start off with the debate for the debate to come into times now it needed an Ambiance and that Ambience happened somewhere around 2007 2008 when there were subjects which came up accidentally as I say in the course of the debate in the course of the news coverage which provoked one to think so actually what happened was that the between the launch between my leaving NDTV in 2004 my launching times now in 2006 January and the format of the debate appearing in its incipient form somewhere in 2007. there was a period of Allah because I was I was too caught up in building an organization or rather say founding an organization and breaking news you I I know that you caused everybody you caused A disruption in the business in a way because we all were suddenly competing with each other like you said you know this this consensus period was over it was like time is not going to break it time zone report is going to be there so other channels were like okay I mean there was this understanding which is we'll do the news you know that the the big news will come in around that time but you were like you had put your reporters everywhere that aggressive brand of Journalism is what you brought in and you were fighting in your Newsroom why so-and-so got this thing first you know like the other the rumors of him fighting are true he's been I mean excuse me wait wait okay so if I can say that when you want it you know ishan to get an experience of a newsroom why did you send him to me so exactly because when my reporters were coming back and when I asked them who was who are we being beaten by like for a news agency I want to know which channel is beating eni when I know that my news is being beaten by somebody else then that means that that person deserves my respect or that channel deserves my respect so you guys were beating us nobody else was beating us at that stage right it's not the it's not the packaging or the way you're speaking it or the way you're presenting it that matters for me it was who's beating and what is this model so when I said if there's somebody who's beating me I need to know that that is that is the kind of Journalism that is going to be our next step forward yeah so I thought that ishan will learn a lot and we will learn a lot and I think we learned uh you know what you needed from a news agency what you were doing with your competitors and how you were beating I think phenomenally you changed because I saw other channels replicating what you were doing in times now see we are sitting here and watching what all channels are doing and I saw that happening with what you were doing I don't know whether you were seeing that no I'll tell you there's another dimension to it and uh having observed the way news is done in Delhi for about a decade a little short of a decade I realized that what was missing in the news was the heart and I want to just explain this a little in detail to you in in Delhi news the way I saw it I'm talking late 90s early 2000s was the quest of four or five things Smitha one political relevance political and bureaucratic relevance that was the high point that journalists and editors really worked for second some kind of patronage some kind of political and bureaucratic patronage that is something which journalists really sought and delighted in it is the be-all and end-all of your life you know third and I'll tell you disproportionate wealth corruption in media circles was rampant up to a point where it became embarrassing to watch people used to boast about it oh I've got this Farmhouse here I've got this Farmhouse there there's no known source of income uh every several people bureau chief um upwards the designation was a pretense as was their salary so I saw deep rot corruption uh and no commitment to society and most importantly no commitment to the nation absolutely zero commitment to the country it became a form of individual aggrandizement and I saw it up close I'm not naming people but anybody watching this knows who I'm talking about and Smita I despised it so I think it was necessary to give this media reality check and I think what I seriously gave them have given them and continue to give them and will give them in the future is a reality check of how the people in this country really think what media they want what media they deserve the form of media that will serve the people's interests the form of media that will serve the national interest and zero sense of self-importance here when I'm saying it's meetha because I when you said and I told you that there was only in in my early phase Randy TV the only occasional stories where I saw impact but I saw the impact potential of the medium of the visual medium I'm not calling it television the visual medium to create impact and then I saw the Colossal selfishness and waste of people who control the levers of that Medium here in this city and so I felt that sitting two thousand kilometers away yeah it was time to give them a reality check and I I can tell you with absolute conviction today as I felt then that I was I have been closer to the hearts of the people then and now is there a reason that you deliberately moved from Delhi to Mumbai because all TV news channels were based in Delhi in those days even now they are daily Noida whatever time so India gave me a job in Delhi and by the time we raised the investment from Reuters I was in Delhi my family well sorry I was in Mumbai they called me to Mumbai so they said we want to launch in Mumbai I said why not I remember first going to kamla Mills the day we got the investment check and we said we'd build a building I remember going to Kamala Mills at that time and we went to the second floor of this building and said this is a big enough place twenty thousand let's build a studio that I saw the bricks being laid we constructed the studio from scratch so why was I in Bombay Bombay I still call it why was I in Bombay I just happened to be there and it was okay and I felt you can do it from here but we kept a center in shiram center but over a period of time I began to enjoy being in Mumbai and enjoy the distance of it all you know this is my two cents I'm a bit of an upstart between both you Giants but I should say there's been a decade also since I was with you so also in that time we saw a lot of the channels the prime time and the bulletins before that were primarily your Deli beats and your metropolitan cities and all times now at that time under him was the first channel that actually went with live assets to you know villages to towns and show what the real people are going through on a daily on a daily basis you know if a kid fell into a borewell a live feed of you know to make sure that the ndrf don't go there and rescue that kid it was them that started it and then we all ran towards it it was also conviction you're totally right yeah in India has lacked a sense of purpose and along with the sense of purpose comes with a sense of conviction see why I am why am I doing this job why am I a journalist why am I an editor what purpose do I serve is it going to be only for myself and my career progression to a certain extent yes all of us do that but I think that my true professional satisfaction came around the time the prince story happened around 2006 seven when I began to observe almost like a student that if you actually use the impact of the medium you have a larger purpose and the larger purpose when you're convinced of your larger purpose in anything in Live Vision then you do it with greater passion right you know and not that this can be taught in a school of Journalism but if you see a small child's lives being saved and you see that the entire country's attention in that period went to those visuals and then you ask yourself in an ordinary news day the story of a child falling into a manhole would have been a small item a diary item a diary item a 30-second wrap a page three single column 100 Pages that's the most buried inside and perhaps the child's life would not have been saved right and so then you know and also it's at some time I saw overall Awakening happened right before my eyes I'll tell you why because the first time you do the story there are a lot of people who raise their eyebrows say you're Sensational say that you're over hyping things say this is tabloid journalism but then if it is so bad then why is everybody following it why is it that through an entire decade and more than even now the editorial agenda that we set is followed by others we are so bad obviously there is an Awakening a weakening and and that Awakening was very opportune because let me ask you ishan and Smita around the time I was doing this I was doing Prince we covered 26 11 in a different way with greater passion we questioned the country's foreign policy and by the time we were doing the scams which is cwg scam around May June 2010 right up to the prime minister's press conference in February 2011 approx that time till the Devas ISRO scam and then the agitation and then nirvaya 2012. this entire period was an exponential of of of the return of news yes of the absolute and unquestioned return of news in the medium of television you know what purpose it served it was a reality check for all these Hindi channels operating in Delhi who by then had descended television into Saab CD Ludo Nagin dance virtual videos videos of people dying on camera you know the kind of rubbish bhootpreet occult you know sansani right and all of these forms I despise I think this you see they'd say to me you are the one who's after ratings I'm not after ratings ratings follow me because what we do is out of our conviction I'm doing service to my country yeah now whether it be the coverage of monkey gate as a test series or Cricket Series in 2007 or 2611 or the corruption cases somewhere serious news came back we are the people who brought back news on television you run India's biggest news agency you know that how many channels at that point of time were running Pure News no whatever I have done people may like or dislike what I have done I can confidently say that in my in my last 16 years as an editor of a channel channels Network whatever I have done only news you can describe what I have done but I have not compromised on the news no it's the form of you so so what we did because we actually Smitha brought a lot of conviction back people we we were doing things because we believed in it and we we when we do something you believe in you don't think of the consequences you know you don't think of who's going to be upset who's going to be hurt which political party will like it or not like it who is Suresh kalmadi close to who is Suresh kalmadi fronting for what happens to a Raja we don't think of the consequences you don't even think that when you're doing Devas ISRO scam which by the way there was arbitration case in the high courts yeah two months back and the verdict after all these years proves me correct yeah and that was the scam at what which point of time I'm sure Dr Manmohan Singh realized he couldn't quote unquote handle us with his political managers we were to be fair and to be honest out of control you know and we did it taking those risks at a time when all these players in lutein's media who now give me lectures in journalism weren't doing nothing but sort of being the most obsequious before the establishment at that point of time so we took those risks we did it with our conviction and I think the people of the country appreciate it I think I think they did I think I appreciate it absolutely taking risk is something of course you've done several times too much of it but many times I've been sitting you know I think why does he do this why so many times I feel that please you know especially when you when that thing okay I want to get to the part of of what happened with the whole Waze parambis okay before that before that I just want to ask one thing you're right about the conviction that you had I mean we all followed it no doubt about which conviction sort of stance and everything no doubt about it everyone did but Kabhi Kabhi sir you know maybe on a certain story we go overboard sometimes did any story give you a doubt that you know maybe I've said a little too much and I need to start backtracking or probably bring bring sort of bring it back on track that you've sort of veered away from a story I'll give you a small example and what I'm talking about specifically this Aryan Khan story that happened all channels sort of had one similar line initially as they went on and as the aspects of the story started tumbling out tumbling out then we realized that listen there are there's more to the story than that than what has been you know put on record or what's come out in the investigations and then sort of people sort of figured out and toned their life tone their sort of coverage more aligned to what the truth of the matter was using that example do you think that sometimes in a particular Story You've Gone overboard everybody has different views on the truth I have not been part of the herd so who knows what the truth is in any case so I would go by my conviction and I'm not forcing anyone to follow what I believe in I won't go into details of that case sure but I I don't sit on the fence ishan in anything and I think it's not in my nature B it should not be in Indian journalism obviously with facts at hand now as far as backtracking which you said earlier I've truly not backtracked on anything I have not backtracked on any story I do and I have found sometimes that in the moment if you backtrack you may regret it later sometimes the truth takes time ishan I give you two examples I just told you about Devas Israel yes now it has taken all these years for a Court verdict to come 12 years um polker yes okay at that time it was seen to be done and dusted in two months right and the entire media went with whatever the Maharashtra government said why didn't they raise questions I didn't Backtrack on palger I didn't Backtrack on on Devas ISRO um I wouldn't even Backtrack on 2G and these are stories I have done and sometimes it's a question of emphasis there are two ways of doing a story you want to do a story to give yourself enough leeway for an Escape Route later example being adarsh U.S housing scam if a journalist wants to kill a story he can kill a story you can call it a housing scam and that's a sure way to kill a story you name it no no because if you call it an environmental issue housing scam and coverage in page three part of the environment page you're killing the story I was the only person who called it Cargill for profit I didn't break the story I rebranded the story deliberately and a lot of journalists were upset with me he's trying to take ownership for a story we broke and I tell them what what impact did your coverage have for six months because you were covering it without conviction without passion you are making it a story of a building that has broken environmental rules we made it a story of politicians using deceit and falsehood yeah and shooting of the shoulders of supposed allocations which were meant for families and taking that money and that property in benami assets for yourself so we have actually went to the nub of the matter nub of the matter and you can ask the then chief minister if you ever interview him you ask the then chief minister of of Maharashtra whether he called me and I told him I'm not backtracking you think ishan and your people know this who are watching this you think over the last 15 years of my life hundreds thousands of politicians have called me to backtrack now they've stopped calling because they're convinced that I'm a Madman now the point here is you want to share one conversation I will mention it on and off record I said I'll write a book one day but but the point is all you have to tell the politician is outside I'll pull the camera you speak speak on camera speak on camera but even the politician by the way he lost his job two days later right we have broken stories that have upset people yeah and we are not in the business of making people happy when I first did IPL you know so many people lost their job did I do it to make people lose their job no that was The Accidental part there is no thought in it I went with my conviction there was something hanky-panky with the coachy IPL I thought then it cost people their job it cost people their franchise we're not in a popularity race but since you use the word backtrack I'll tell you confidently from then to now I have never backtracked I've gone to jail and back but I have not backtracked sometimes I am sure that in the fullness of time the truth will come out it did right with this whole thing in the fullness of time it does but what happens at that moment there are so many other influences if you want to be open to the influencers then you'll think and maybe you will be forced to backtrack I tell journalists and reporters don't do the story if you have to backtrack later when you did this whole thing I mean when that whole Sachin was a uh episode happened I was on air with you with your team when that team came in to pick you up and I seriously didn't think that they'll drag you through jail I I thought it's going to stop it's going to stop now now and you know I mean your even your anchors were like no it's not stopping ma'am it's going to continue I said any rogueling I didn't believe when I saw those machine gun carrying guys coming and your family out there being pushed and shoved I I it was it was terrifying at least for for viewers and I had so many people calling me up and said are you watching it yes I'm watching what's happening it was it was terrifying and then they sent you uh to jail what was that like or not that period I mean you didn't talk about it for quite some time you didn't you didn't say what what you went through that those jails the loja jail and all is where terrorists are there Mafia accused are in that jail what was it like for a journalist for and a an army officer son you grew up in cantonments all that no Godfathers it's a very yeah that's a period of my life I have not spoken about in detail what you are asking I have spoken about the fact that we we were right what we've done is right there's no backtracking that we'll be proven correct in the court of law which we have been we've spoken about the legal side of it because the charges that were put against us were outrageous outrageous but before I come into what happened in jail let me ask you today if the commissioner of police of Delhi holds a press conference and says that everything in Ani is the proceeds of crime and says that there is another news agency I was investigating I have completed the investigation in four hours against that agency that is a very good agency this is the bad agency I found out and we will confiscate the assets arrest Smitha prakash arrest the family lock up this premises These Are the proceeds of crime and if on that day outside your house or your home all of the media in Delhi were to come stand outside and accept the Prescott police commissioner's claim and paint you as a financial criminal how would you respond and if it so happened and then my mind thinks so what you are asking me about the date of my arrest which I think is the 5th of November 2020. yeah but what you must and and I would like to tell the viewers of your of your podcast they must look at the events that happened a month earlier in fact around the 8th of October 2020 exactly a month earlier parambir did a press conference in which he said that I was buying the viewership of people of this country by paying them 500 rupees each and everybody lapped it up everybody wrapped it up you're the generalization I'll ask you two questions how is it that there were dozens of journalists and camera crew outside my house two hours before the press conference number one how come the he that fellow that commissioner who now has so many cases against him he and the entire one they did they did innumerable press conf innumerable uh interviews on that day yeah right and the third question which I I want to raise before you is if a person works hard works hard as a journalist for over 20 years breaks out from very limited Capital with intense hard work Builds an organization and dreams of scale as in the clear dream was to build India's largest news organization which Smitha I want to tell you Republic is destined to be the largest news organization in India and through hard work and if it so happens that as part of that growth story we learned in the Hindi news channel a Hindi news channel which becomes number one beats everybody Hollow through editorial coverage right I am obviously upsetting the apple cart of a lot of media corporate players in lutein's Delhi who have had it too good for too long but however is this the way to fight me is joining hands with politicians I have upset and policemen who have their own X2 grind the way to honestly battle a competitor in a media industry where entrepreneurship should be welcomed I don't like people who use unfair means to fight me I I very much welcome anybody who battles it out on the basis of stories coverage marketing distribution anything but that press conference by the way happened a day after we completed eight weeks as India's leading Network in both English and Hindi which is starting which in the history no no what I'm trying to say is that it by October 2020 Republic had reached a unique position where no media organization in the history of India in print or television has been Numero Uno in both English and Hindi since 1947 to now name one media organization in India who which has held Numero Uno position in terms of viewership audience share in English and in this obviously people saw it as a threat now I'm not suggesting a conspiracy what I'm saying is that maybe it was a fortuitous sense turn of events for my enemies who thought that they would join hands together and this is the right moment you know the organization and the individual is doing too well let's beat him down using a combination of factors and I think that it is a it is a curse for the luteians media that they have chosen unfair means at a time when they should have sharpened their editorial objectives and their lesson for them forever should be do not use unfair means to get ahead today Republic is even more powerful and stronger influential in terms of viewership we have a destiny in ahead of us what has all this led to so I wanted to bring you back from the arrest because see what happens Smita if I talk about my rest what happened to me in jail what I went through I will talk about it I have no problems talking about it but I want people to understand the background look in this country when someone from a middle class background aspires for greater dreams then they extinct existing establishment which wants the status quo to continue sharpens their knives and can't fight me individually but they must not join hands with criminals either in uniform or in politics because then you are bringing the profession down it is the biggest blot in the history of Indian media Smitha I'm not telling us ordinary thing forever for the next hundred years I hope there will be nothing worse than what happened it is the biggest blot in the history of Indian media that the media got together with politicians policemen murderers and convicts look at the people they join hands with now they can say we didn't contractually join us but they opportunistically did join us to bring me down and to bring Republic down is it not a fact when I'm saying this today and those people watching it if they are watching it can they really look at me eye to eye and say no no we did not do it yeah the fact is they know we did it why did you do it why could you not work harder why could you not behave the pulse of the people with you why don't you believe in the future of this country like I do so these are questions anyway that part is over so what happened to me on in November 2020 is extraordinary because I'm asking you today who in the Indian media which editor-in-chief has gone through what I went through but the moral of the story is if the idea was to crush me and to crush me in various Ways by physically assaulting me and bringing 111 120 strong group of people hundred of them fully armed 26 27 of them inside my flat pushing me with the butt of their weapons hitting me in the crotch yeah physically assaulting me thrashing me through the way right not even letting me wear my shoes jail doing things which are unbelievable we talk about human rights abusers I don't talk about it putting me shifting me from one jail to the other dragging me through my hair right unspeakable offenses making me open my wounded hand with my with my own left hand to open my stitched hand which had 88 stitches on it right and making me open my stitches in front of me which I have said you know doing things like that why what were they and then telling me why don't you chill out a little bit we'll chill out picking me up from my jail cell at six o'clock in the morning and taking me for quote unquote interrogation for eight hours ten hours what did what did chill out means chill out is that uh tone down no tone down your you at that point in the jail or you or your editorial of your channel no no don't down tone down in every way obviously what was this all about it was an attempt to make me tone down it was an attempt at getting me on a table to compromise and I can proudly say that I did not compromise I did not tone down I did not see karap roshna right I am convinced of what my work is what my ethics are what my values are I didn't tone down but again to cut the long story short and I'll answer your question later and you said that you are Sachin was here aren't you no no I knew the fact is the fact is that again not going back to the arrest but I am going back to what purpose all that served I am asking today sitting in your office what purpose did it serve what difference did it make but what I'm saying today is that is that in the history of Independent India which editor has gone through this which editor has gone through this and I know I was a spectacle for all a lot of people in the lutein's media but I think they they had an opportunity to redeem themselves by raising their voice then not that I needed them to let me make it very clear I can fight my own battles I don't need them but for themselves they should have done it now as far as the absolute incident which you are speaking about which is the moment of the arrest you have seen about it you've seen it on television I'm sure but you've seen perhaps one percent of it and when a person goes through in those circumstances is it's an experience if you want me to detail the experience I will but but it's a it's a different experience but I would not say that it's a degrading experience how can you say that your family was also involved no no it's not a degrading experience it's not a degrading experience because it depends on the way you you go through the experience I can tell you Smitha I went through the experience with absolute dignity I went through it with dignity and I don't think you can be degraded if you don't want to but yes you know I have never been to jail before I have never been shifted in jails before I have never been treated like a terrorist before I remember on the day when I was arrested they created a green corridor from my house in lower parel down through to Alibaba and in the middle of traffic the only thing that was going through in my mind was what nonsense why why are they disrupting Mumbai traffic for me they created a green Corridor yeah for two for the Vans and either you know black curtains I could see beyond that they create a green corrid of what 50 60 kilometers so that I could be moved through right I Could Be Moved Through the traffic and when I reached alibag when I reached alibag and I went to the police station and when I came out and they said that it's time for you to go to the go to the court because you have to be produced there as a convict as an accused I came out of the police station and I saw that there were dozens of drones flying over the police station the entire city if you could the town of alibag had been cordoned off and there were drones flying because they were capturing every moment of mine so I want to know who was getting the CCTV footage of me they were obviously providing live footage of me to their political Masters and I looked above and I saw the drones and there were crowds outside hundreds of people outside I I remember I I met Shamu I met my wife I asked for her to come and she came forth but I was shocked that the at the level of preparation they had for my arrest it's like that caught Chota shakilaud Ibrahim yeah and brought him in then it was crazy I was I was in you know the funny thing is at that point of time I was looking at it as a reporter I I I put myself in I said that now let me look at this as a reporter it's a reflex action there's this there's this great criminal being caught inside and what the way is being protected you're not being nobody around there were 30 40 people around me all armed and ready to push me back if I moved a little bit did you fear for your life at that stage because you know everybody knows that some of them were encounter Specialists out there did you fear that they that you could be eliminated at that stage see when all of this stuff is happening you're not thinking that far you're not thinking that far um I know that a lot of people now if I look back there were so many things which happened which you know it's good I didn't overthink at that moment because when you're in a when you're in a jail cell and there are 60 70 people in the cell with you and there are about 1 200 very very very hard in criminals sharing the place with you and there are people from uh from the D gang right next to you and in yourself and there are people who are you know there are pedophiles and murderers and there are uh there are people who are deep into narcotics who are with you and there was you know the people I exposed for in Narcotics were there in the cell next to me and there were people who had a significant play in The dawood Gang who were made to meet me in jail and I met them and uh when people from the underworld were sent to myself and I I met them and I spoke to them and you know at that moment at that moment when you're in that situation you you don't really think because you're thinking of the next thing uh you can't think I when you stand in a phone line and there are 50 people ahead of you you get two minutes to speak to someone and I always used to call my lawyer you know first thing and you know and when I used to speak to my law there's if I policemen wanting to hear what I was saying so but uh so you know when you're going through so much you're not really thinking because you're in a Cell you're in a big cell and there are several cells so you're in one of the largest of them and there are too many people so the only thing that you're thinking about when you're being taken for the for the interrogation is when this is going to finish you know and there are moments when the interrogation is getting too tedious and these guys they are having a whale over time they're eating in front of you they are talking in front of you they're worshiping and then they're going in and out and then they are going to the washroom and back and you know you're simply going through three rounds of interrogation and it's never ending and it's really stupid uh but you go through it and at some point of time you almost feel like what are these police people doing and it was seeming to me that they were constantly taking instructions and there were attempts made to try and break me you know you break him drag the interrogation make it personal hit them hard take him from one place wake him up at four o'clock in the morning hit him put him into one cell take him to another police station make him stand there at the entrance of the police station let him be unguarded all that stuff but but the truth is truth is I have I have always I I look at it far removed I was not I was looking at it from the other perspective what they are trying to do and it was apparent to me that it's a very predictable attempt to break me and those who are trying to do it don't know what stuff I'm made of were you hit pardon me no of course of course I showed my wounds to the judge you see none of all this was ever reported I I I I I I I I I asked for physical examination and I I told the lady judge out there I I showed her I opened my shirt I I lifted my shirt and I showed my shoulders and I was totally bruised through and through totally bruised through and through on the way to the police station out there I told the cop this is what I've been through I've been badly assaulted physically in the pretext of moving me from one man to the other I mean let me be I'm coming into the I am coming into the van with you there's no need to assault me it's a judge sent me for physical examination I was physically examined the the doctor completely saw that I was bruised but there was a lot of pressure I believe on the on the medical on the doctors that and they said that I have I have self-inflicted injuries can you beat yourself can you bruise yourself right down your spine at the back your hand won't reach yeah so it's bizarre but that's what it is did you at that time regret uh ornam that maybe I shouldn't have maybe I can compromise and any point of time did you feel that my journalism could have been a little less aggressive maybe or absolutely not never if if you see if I did not compromise in 2011 when the entire Congress Government tried to put pressure on me when I was the editor of times now then why would I compromise now this was physical I have had cabinet ministers warn me personally of consequences I have written letters back to Cabinet ministers describing my phone conversation with they have gone complaining to my bosses this has been the story of my life so I I really don't care about the consequences should the consequences go so far I mean at one point of time when you're exposed to all kinds of people when you're in jail you do think about what's going to happen at night and so I wouldn't sleep at night I would just remain awake the whole night so I remember in my jail cell I would lie next to the window and there's a big cell and there were the bars and I would keep looking at the looking at the ceiling and anyway I couldn't sleep because because there were these gigantic reptiles on the ceiling which was very high and I I mean not gigantic reptiles they were not lizards but there's some some larger form of lizards and different colors they were on they were on the on the on the on the ceiling so I I would anyway I would adrenaline was running very high and you have a mat or a bed or what was it that you had I had I had a I had a very very thin mat that's it I had a thin mat and so I would roll that up and I would then lie down at the end of the day because you're too fatigued you've come back from interrogation you don't know what's going on in the outside world and it's just endless it's going on and I thought that I had been they denied police custody for me because the judge realized the first day that this wasn't much of a case so legally speaking the judge in the alibag quote denied police custody it's only accidental that the high court kept hearing we have kept going up and down that it went on endlessly I'm sure the state government enjoyed it but I would as I was saying when I would come back from there at about 12 1 o'clock and all so everybody in the cell would be sleeping and I would I would then just look at this I said I don't want to sleep because what if that falls yeah yeah so I would I would sort of I would not that I'm I would use these excuses to stay awake so I don't think I slept for two three days actually how many people were there in yourself about 25 30 then they were more brought in 40 45 50 maybe 50 50 55. let's go to the motive again you've said I must tell you that I was okay yeah of course I was okay inside inside the cell I was okay I shared my food and uh and I I must tell you that towards the end of my period in jail um I'm not a big fussette I wouldn't eat too much so they would give four rotis each or something so I would have one Roti I would share the rest with the other so I became quite popular because whatever food I got I said let us all eat together I remember two days before my release [Music] 30 of us I think in the cell we Saturn we made a circle and we sat and had dinner and and I served them and they served me so I went and took my food I had some and everything else I gave them dessert of parleji biscuits so I was very popular because I was sharing my food I I didn't I was constantly sort of moving around so it was fine I got to meet a lot of people ahead and when finally I got Bail what was that like they would they would for the for the because I had such long hours of interrogation at that time that even the fellow inmates would feel bad for me because in you know this at the end of the day I'm not a terrorist I'm not a murderer I have not committed a capital offense there is nothing to interrogate me for so they would feel sorry for me because I would take me early in the morning and they would bring me late at night so when I would come back about 8 30 or so I would go past each you know each cell and they would talk to me and then somebody would say we were praying for you and there was this man he was a Sufi he was a Sufi religious person in one of the cells and they actually they were praying for me so when the day of my when the day of my release uh you know I was there were people were people were clapping in the nearby cells because I would I would constantly bother them I would not let the guys sleep on the other side because I had no access to news on what was happening on my case so I would keep asking the person in the next cell was your TV here there was a TV small TV about four cells away and I couldn't hear or see so anybody would pass that way I said please put it Republic so they after some time they would they would pass on the information and they would do their own legal interpretation of it whatever but we became friendly it we became friendly so everybody knew about it so the day I got I got Bail it became sort of breaking news yeah and everybody put on Republic so everybody was watching Republic Bharat in taloja jail in that distant thing and I got the breaking news from them when you came out earn up that huge crowd did you expect that crowd that there'd be so many people lining the streets when you got out of jail when that you know when you came out with that hand fist in the fist bump that you did and you can't blame the media because pretty much everyone was there yeah effectively I'm not the popular person in the media but be that as it may I was getting late and the the release order had been signed and we got we got pale I was standing there uh was I was having a casual chat with the jailers then somebody said you should launch a Marathi Channel they were talking to me nicely I said yeah I will so we're having a pleasant chat and I was Shamu came I came out and then the the tone changed because just as I was about to leave the tone changed and I remember Shamu said get into the car I saw her and she said get in the car and so I sat and then the a cop or two wanted to sit in the car and so she said you can't sit in the car I'm taking him home and they said no we're going to sit in the car and they insisted actually on putting me in a police van and driving me to Washi and then the cops one of the cops came and told me that there is a huge crowd outside which is waiting to Lynch you because you have upset their political favorites and that mob is waiting to Lynch you your security is at risk you will you will not come out safe your life is at risk we need to take you to vashi bridge and then you can go from there whichever you want him so Shamu insisted and we I sat in the car and I came out but the reason I was coming out was because uh because my car had been surrounded by the police and all armed and they were not letting me come out and I don't think I'm I'm so unpopular that also hated in this country that people would want to kill me right outside a police station right so I came out and and I couldn't believe what I saw I I had written it out many times what I will say when I came out come out I had I used to have a small notebook and as to you know to sketch the jail cell and I used to sketch things and as to make notes so I remember stuff and I remember I would I would distract myself by thinking of other things and about the television medium stuff and about people I met the experiences I had and when I came out I would often talk about think about what I would say when I came out but when I came out the I was not being allowed to meet anyone I was not being allowed to meet my colleagues I was not being my people from my channel were outside there was a distance kept between me and them and they just wanted me out from sight it is as if the Maharashtra government had said make sure that he doesn't get to talk to the people or talk to the media so I I had a sunroof so I stood up and what I saw Smita I will never forget in my life ishan because I saw I saw it on the other side of the road because they'd been pushed back and they were like the policemen were pushing the people back yeah and I saw hundreds thousands of people what they decided to do at that moment all of them maybe they thought in planning there was no way for them to communicate to me they switched on the the lights on their phones all I saw when I came out was just as a a sea of Spotlight Spotlight so yeah and people are waving it yeah oh it was a very emotional moment for me I was of course Very charged up because it had been a long time but when I saw that it was did you don't need to say anything in words and I remember from there because I was going to the hospital to get myself bandaged again because the blood was oozing and it had been bad I was worried about just getting septic or getting a bad infection because of my wounds open wounds in jail and so I I was going to the hospital but I couldn't literally drive because there were hundreds of people following me with their bikes and their cars and it was very heartwarming and I realized at that moment that we had won we had one at that very moment we did not need of course the law and everything will follow but in your heart in my heart I only live and we all should live only for public what the public thinks and the attempt was then to crush us and I knew that when I came out we had won and that was important for me it was it was important for all of us even now uh uh these days when people are watching your channel and watching the other channels I mean you've talked about how your competitors got together with the Maharashtra government to put you down and things it's my it's my assumption assumption and we're watching as viewers everybody's watching this and it makes it makes people feel a little bit uneasy that competition between channels has got to this dirt level where there are personal attacks on each other and uh you know viewers would like to think but it's it's become it's become very vicious I yeah I mean yeah you know Smitha I am not competing I'm just doing my job they are competing I am not competing I'm just doing my job I'm doing it well and I'm not in a rat race with them they are competing my livelihood is not at stake their livelihoods are at stake they look at me as a commercial threat I am just doing my editorial job I sleep well at night I feel I'm independent I don't owe anyone anything I'm not doing anything bad I truly believe in the future of this country I truly want to do something that makes a difference to the country that's all I want to do they are all fighting me they should not do that and as far as what you said the the the the the demise of any ethics in this profession some things are not necessary you know surrounding where I live with cameras chasing me I was living in a I was I was living in a in a in a private house in in Delhi for a few days surrounding my house with cameras uh you know uh following my car this is after you came after I came out after I came out when I was when my case was going on in court and and surrounding my house with cameras then doing shows on me uh you know uh calling me names it was endless it was because I think I think what happened was they realized that I had one but they were giving it one more shot but boss I mean I have to interject here because see I you also say Republic is number one number one big banners on your channel your channel also sometimes tweets out and calls out those editors as well competitions I'm not on Twitter your channel is no that's why I said your channel takes names calls them out by name that we are number one not you you know so to say that you're not competing you are as well competing you are also there very much so in the in the ratings no I'm reminding people we don't troll people on social media but if anybody wants to give lectures we remind them you know the thing thing is that if you did a show on me calling me names two years back then have the spine or the courage to do a show when you are named I'm not even I'm not even being indirect I'm not even being indirect or subtle about it I am saying that if there is a channel which is now the subject of an investigation by the agency which was making claims against me why don't you do a show on the charges against you I'm asking a question and by the way I'm asking the question very politely not in their tone not in their nature I'm not putting my cameras outside their houses but I'm reminding them and I am only reminding them so they realize their fault we are far beyond all this but it is necessary to remind them it is necessary for people to remember the episode of what has ever happened to Republic between 2000 and 2022. I don't do it constantly as far as competing is concerned of course we are competing but we are not competing unethically right unethically an ethically but I want to go back to ascribing motive media ganged up with all these people powerful people it is my feeling it is my assumption it is no I I am saying that I believe and let me rephrase this what I have said that if you look at the combination of circumstances a number of people felt it was a god-given opportunity to get us down that's it I'm not saying they entered into a criminal conspiracy but I'm saying that it was an opportunity for them or no I'm you know just to move away from this uh I'll come back to this whole godi media versus Khan Market gang and all which several programs we've done on this on your show when you do this about foreign media and all but before that I want to come to this you know you were mentioning 26 11. for many people that was like a watershed moment on how terrorism nationalism all this should be covered by uh news media you know Cargill was one episode on how it was like that was a watershed moment for some for people Beyond before us it was uh you know the 71 war and then for many after that because they hadn't seen War post Cargill it was the this that whole moment of what happened how Bombay was covered 2611 was covered and two large extent what you did at that time I mean you were nationalism you wear it on your shoulder collar everything T-Bone no no your nationalism is come on no I don't I don't you are very very in there no no I I I I I think I I wouldn't have done it had I not feel the urgent need to do it I feel I I feel this is my own perspective that there are a lot of people who are working against the country's interests and what you are calling wearing nationalism on your sleeve is the only only way to put them down you can't given the nature of the threats this country faces and we get a very close grasshoppers view of it in the media given the number of people who are willing to sell this country given the number of people who are willing to be fake present one thing and do another given the number of people who are not talking about why there were protests against the kodempulam nuclear power plant I'm not a I'm not a fan of nuclear power but the fact of the matter is I believe there were corporate foreign powers who were engineering it and given the fact that it's very easy in this country to give two people fake fellowships and three people a fake foreign assignments and give three people sponsored tours abroad to get them to turn quote unquote activist uh to create ngos and then work against the country's development interest these are one of the many facets of it so I feel that since there are so many people who are working as in my countries internal security interests therefore it is necessary for a media house to strongly oppose them now these guys say you're wearing nationalism on your sleeve but it is my purpose putting the news out first is not my only purpose I can't constantly try and tell you I put the news out first I'm subsidious because I would rather say that I put Nation first somebody else may have their own motto or purpose for being in you know but but if I feel that my work as a journalist or whatever I have done has to have a larger purpose I believe in it it's not a slogan for me it's not a slogan for me it's not a marketing tool it is what I live for and then there are many who say that because uh nationalism is so important to you uh you are very quick to label people anti-national without going into the I mean these are seasoned politicians who have cultivated their image they have their politics and attacks say you turn around and say multinational which season politician are you talking you know I'm not going to know which which seasoned seasoned politicians and it could be just a one aspect of it of course even the you know you you did that whole banakab thing of the huriyad much before everybody else we've all seen it right how the hurry up was fated in Delhi but nobody would say it why wouldn't they say yeah exactly yeah why wouldn't they say JK why wouldn't they say yeah why wouldn't they say it I'm asking you why wasn't wooden this thing yeah so this is this is my question why wouldn't they say it I I have only asked the contrary question why wouldn't they say it Smita why wouldn't they acknowledge that did they not know do people not know do we trust people for years in Delhi it was said the huria takes money from both sides I'll be very direct about it you know Smitha oh these are people who are you know on the payrolls of Pakistan and India both first of all there is no proof of anything but the fact is how could you trust them essentially we're saying that there was some form of political mercenaries but nobody said it why are we fearful of bad people for me the questions are very simple in life there are good people and bad peoples Mitha bad people must be fought good people must be supported my journalism is very simple Smitha there is no complexity to this you know they are bad people bad people must be questioned it's a very you know and and and this is what the purpose of Journalism should be and it's your contourment uh upbringing I'm convinced of this that you you're like there is no compromise with nationalism I think I've seen that with anybody with a slight bit of uh Army background or whatever Services background is that uh you know how can you even think that it is you can gloss over these things in life yes to a great extent Army background seeing my father in uniform seeing a lot of people in my family serve the country being brought up with values but it is also values it is also values and um it's it's my entire family my mother my father my family my my upbringing you know but Smitha why are these things so complex to understand it you know why because we all enter this profession as idealists at least I would say sixty percent of us yeah and then 90 percent of people lose their idealism and I'm fortunate to be surrounded by people who remind me of idealism purpose on a daily basis and therefore I have I I disagree with people openly and I look at the clearest and simplest way to define them and sometimes that is by coining phrases like the to create I'm so proud to be the author of that first yeah and then it is it is it was kind of shocking first time you know when you use it but today I will not respond to this I I'm not going to I was dearly annoyed with you enough I feel I feel I feel I feel if there was there was what is no but when I heard when I heard the video and this is yeah what do you call them do you call them the tukuri club gang is a phrase is an epithet which they deserve yeah and and in some way consider this Smita that the more direct we are the more sense we make you were the first one I think also who would do complete shows on Khan Market gang on lutein's gang and the other side would do this on godi media and you know and these are former colleagues of yours I've heard ravish and the others saying that you know we got trained by the same person who came from uh from London he came and trained us and in journalism and he taught us somebody from London came and thought and he says that uh so then uh this um blogger asked him that and he said how many but then what is the points now here is a person who has who probably is in you know same batches as or whatever you know when we were doing journalism has gone so far away that will openly say that your brand of Journalism is not journalism completely not German you may turn around and say that that is not no I'm not turning around and saying anything I'm saying that if there are people in this country who are making a living by calling me names good luck to them I truly believe that there is a whole lot of people I am not naming names for these worthies we are mentioning but there are people who are making a living even today by calling me names so good luck to them I don't need to give it much importance that's all good for them good for them isn't it but does it rest easy does it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't trouble you that you know these are people from who you've worked with for so many years and you know absolutely I please understand we are all on our Journeys yeah I'm on an exciting Journey and can I tell you what my exciting journey is I am in a fortunate position to still have a few years and I hope a few decades ahead of me where I can contribute to my form of Journalism which will serve the country's interest so I am very excited and I am positive and I'm seeing someone younger than me like ishan and I am saying okay I'm seeing some energy in this guy right I'm seeing you you are doing a new show you are Reinventing yourself I'm seeing people who are doing new things and I truly believe like you asked me about my entire jail experience there could have been a person who's been through one tenth of what I've been would come out like a very bitter person yeah exactly but I I would only advise these people who call others names don't be so bitter sinus isn't in creeping I I I I want people to experience the joy of doing something purposeful with journalism right by calling each other names calling this Modi media godi media this that Etc you know you'll become like a broken record very soon you think about it I am today thinking right now after I finish this show I've done three calls with my three channels I've added extended discussion with my digital team we are bringing out a new product I'm understanding technology I'm going to use technology to reach the people of this country I'm I'm I'm so happy when I go to my Newsroom and I don't want I don't want the future of Indian media or future journalists who are wanting to be journalists to keep listening to these bitter people yeah I want to get to foreign now what about the future television journalist if if he or she is entering this profession what's your advice to them like they used to call me to journalism schools earlier they stopped calling me every journalism school I went to I would go and say please don't do a course in journalist they never called me okay yeah because but the reason why I say this my question is because see in the end a channel sort of entire news coverage boils down to the 9 pm debate these days 9 pm debates unfortunately take a very you know binaries there's no in between over there that is completely polarized what the the topics that they choose in that sense is it do they lose out on actually covering the news or they essentially parroting one Channel's agenda and they'll go for that only so actually uh see I like what I do so this debate is something I have done the 9 pm debate I have done because this is what I do and I think on a comparative sense unless I go back on the field start reporting or enjoying being a reporter again which I hope at some point of time I will do or do journalism in the more field sense um I enjoy what I do but my advice to both my other colleagues in the media and to future journalists you don't have to do the same thing I see no reason why other channels are compelled to do a debate because they must be there must be other forms of Journalism you know I was just talking to someone on the flight as I came and I said you know they need to be long firm they need to be stories they need to be other forms of presenting the news and I'm sure there'll be a variety of news you could follow and and if I could I would do it myself and in fact I want to experiment with new forms of Journalism so I think my advice to budding journalists would be this profession is going to explode in the next 10 years you know and you must experiment with everything do what you enjoy there is no set formula of what you need to do you know there is no set formula what you need to do yeah but but whatever you do if you feel that it can help your country it will give you a larger purpose you will have a longer and more satisfying career if you do that and then you will not look at yourself as a cog in the wheel because see there is a mechanics of Journalism you run an organization there are people who will lock tapes there are people who will edit yeah but at the end of the day there is something that must bind them together which is greater than even your organization itself right you know so that's what I look at do you think that I mean the past few years there's been a certain credibility crisis in the television news business which is not there in say the print media and all because they have the I mean they write it down a written word doesn't sort of it's not as rough edged as television means emotive exactly yeah yeah complete nonsense no no I'll tell you why okay please I I said print is dead and I was almost thrown out of an industry currently but I said it I said it three years back when people called me for an industry conclave I didn't realize that the sponsors of the conclave were newspaper houses and then the event organizers told me and I went on stage and I said that there's going to be a Black Swan event and when the Black Swan event happens your existing Empires that you built on print will not be able to survive because they're just too overload it and I said I don't feel people will read the newspaper in the way they do it now and covet happened and kovid was that Black Swan event yes and I true but I said this I said this and you I'll send you the copy of that I I said this and people thought I was hallucinating when I said that but the fact is that I had said something which which was quite relevant So my answer to the question on print is print had a chance to reinvent 10 years back in India they refused to there is not one big story of national significance that print is breaking that print is broken which the whole country has followed yeah isn't that tragic yeah that's true people call me names but I'll Tell You by people I can I can name a thousand stories I have done or exclusive stories I've done or coverage I've done whether it be IPL cwg which have set the news agenda but print has not set the news agenda yeah and I think it may have it may be a bit too late for print to catch them also I think more of uh but no disrespect there are a lot of great journalists in print I started out in print myself it's just the reality that that I think that print should have recalibrated its journalism somewhere around the time that we were redefining the rules of the business in 2007 and eight when we brought in a lot of heart and feeling and emotion and and sense of national pride into our coverage in the later years of the 2000s the early decade of 2010 printed an opportunity to then compete by setting the news agenda on its own but it did not I have a bit of a difference in the western uh World already print is a thing of the past right It's All Digital that they are accessing news mostly I I have a different opinion I think now we also see a lot of Television journalists who are sort of part of print newsrooms as well and they are sort of reimagining what a print traditional print product has to be you have we have you have newspapers who which have fantastic YouTube following they have fantastic social media sort of they've embraced it and they're doing a sort of mixed medium now so to style know it completely into print or no I actually I don't believe in print television and yes I look at it as as video and text correct yeah they're morphing actually and in the future there'll be video and there'll be text and they'll be streaming and there'll be video on demand and then there'll be text so and the text will appear in various forms so in the future our own imagination for Republic in the future will will have a lot of these forms so please don't misunderstand I love the written word I read a lot myself not as much as I would want to but when I'm saying print I'm talking about the news publishing business in our country which should have redefined itself and its goals and objectives and shaken itself out of its state of inertia about a decade when we're talking about boundaries let's now talk about geographical boundaries you you know many of your TV debates where you uh speak about foreign media having agenda when it comes to India you know doing agenda journalism uh in it and you've often said that Indian journalists or Indian journalism has to rise up to this challenge and we have to have a global voice do you still believe that uh you know we haven't India hasn't managed to have that you know like a CNN or a BBC or internationally or even an Al Jazeera for that matter we've not managed to have that as yet okay as yet we don't have as yet we don't have it um we've been in Sula we've been we've been insular and and and private news organizations have not uh crossed the Rubicon you know there's always that moment of indecision on whether you're going to cross the Rubicon you know historically when you take this metaphor from Roman times it's all about that moment of decisiveness whether you realize that you want to get out of the comfort zone in which you are and then move into an uncertain territory but you need to cross the Rubicon and I said it I had been invited to Moscow 2015 and I was on this sort of what they call a global panel and I found myself as an odd exception and there were I I there were a few Snickers initially when I said that you know the next Global News Revolution will come from India but I I supported it statistically by giving examples of the number of newspapers in India and then proving my case that we are the most we we are the least insular society and America is the most insular society and the most insular Society has the greatest presence in global media but that was 2015 in 2022 given what CNN has done for itself I wouldn't say that about American Media sure and I wouldn't say that about about uh about the United Kingdom also and and I do know that the BBC will not be able to survive the day British taxpayers don't give money as part of their forced license fees these are hugely subsidized organizations usually subsidized organizations and I'm committed to it I have said it and and we are about a year away from doing it we are going to set up in Republic the first Global News organization I don't know how I'll do it I don't know how I'll fund it I don't know to what extent it will be effective but that's how we built every part that's how you always move that I'm going to do this and they'll see the rest later we'll see that as later yeah at that speed that's see when you're convinced about something then it happens it falls through when we started a Hindi Channel we started it with insignificant amount of amounts of it wasn't even your language Hindi is in my language we insignificant amounts of money uh massive commitments out there if the Hindi channel would not have worked then Republic would not have survived similarly with Bangla but some somewhere I believe the people are behind us and carry on carry on you know you do it well but I also believe it's not just a career on moment it is the fact that demographically we we need to have a foothold we need to have a foothold for a say and now about this balancing question which you've asked about coverage and all that you know I've spent a lot of time in the United Kingdom as a student first It Oxford then as a fellow at Cambridge I've traveled down there a lot of friends there can you imagine the disproportionate clout that the United Kingdom gets because of the BBC oh yes disproportionate to its economy to everything and I think we need to think about that as a country so I always look at larger projects which will serve a larger National goal and I think this could be it this could be it you know and and and when we started out with Reuters in in times now I had this Newsroom full of people I don't know it was where in your time we had we had The Newsroom full of Americans and British and Chinese and it was wonderful world bulletin yeah yeah people were even abusing each other in Hindi in The Newsroom and it was quite wonderful so I realized that news is this ever flowing thing you know yeah ever flowing but your your Ambitions and everything that you want to do centers around uh just journalism isn't it you wouldn't want to do anything beyond journalism of course not no rajasito oh great crazy you would be better with the Lok Sabha seat forget I'll tell you let me tell you yeah let me tell you why not public service please don't put that question I'll tell you one thing I I there at the at the height of the scams there was this Minister who said let's have lunch okay and he chased me so I said we'd have lunch and over the lunch after some time he asked this question as we were heading to dessert and I was not coming to the point he said what about public services you know a person like you should serve the country I said I'm paying the bill and leaving it's a it come on [Music] excited about the next day and I think this is if I can do this for the rest of my life it'll be very fulfilling so I can be a very fulfilling career I think I can't in life can you imagine me as a politician no no I can't be I'd be a pain for everyone yeah it would be difficult imagine you I can imagine if it was a politician but not within a political party I don't think anybody can control you in living a political party I I just love what I do and I think that natural career progression that in lutense you know people like to have you know abhi now I need to be but there are enough worthy people to be in the Rajasthan but no this respect why do I why do I need to be there I'm very happy where I am okay uh and and by the way I I mean the media is going to go through such a dramatic series of events and where can you serve your country best is what I ask I've already got an opportunity I'm so lucky you know I'm maybe one among 10 000 or a million who is in this position today to play a role and of late when we recruit young journalists when they come into our Newsroom it's such a joy to meet a 22 year old who's come in and then they ask you questions and I think I have the next 10 years 20 years to guide people do new stuff so but I'm happy before I even tried did you did you know it was completely organic completely organic where do you learn these words these are sort of keywords in the digital world organic growth everybody wants to know that when you do these debates it's so high octane so high temperature this ice look at him as my protege yes of course so this is pride in him I was like I can't do this 10 10 pm debate I can't sleep at night how do you sleep at night after that high energy debate or no so everybody's screaming over each other you're also screaming and then they they come on your show and they abuse you on the your show and you don't get ruffled yeah I love doing it why is he shouting back at them they're saying all kinds of things how do you sleep what do you it doesn't uh it's the only time in the day I really let my head down everything is done I look forward to about 7 38 it's like the time of the day when you know everything is done you know administrative yeah Financial HR organizational legal meetings and yeah now legal legal legal legal more legal more Fier more case these state governments never tired of filing Affairs against us and me so 7 30 is a time when you feel like okay now my time is coming it's my me time hmm it's my me time and and I feel very happy I mean there are days when I felt stressed before going in but at the end of 11 o'clock I feel very happy so I I really enjoy it one of the another question which many viewers listeners have is that journalists are often very close to politicians you know the proximity and uh then journalists start getting this aura about them then humby important hey and then people start believing that oh these guys can get things done so that's what I want to ask you is that is it is it true does one get this Larger than Life ego that you know I can't even get everything done in Republic I have to get 10 permissions from all our senior colleagues to get things done so no it doesn't apply to me a and he's right I've been sitting in Mumbai for for the last uh 17 years so I'm okay and I mean I don't know yeah maybe these are this is the kind of stuff that I used to hear when I was here but I think the country has changed I'm I I'm I'm I'm so happy and I feel this country is going through a liberating experience where that kind of stuff where media persons could open doors does not happen in Daily no and I think that's a lot of discomfort that some old fashioned journalists have with this present government that you can't open doors yeah it's not important to be seen anymore and I think it's good yeah it's not disdain Sometimes some journalists see this as oh the government has disdained for us I think there needs to be what would I call a church State divide or equivalent of that there needs to be a little distance right and the proximity is not necessary that kind of proximity proximity is not necessary you are reporting the news why do you need to be carried around in a government plane why do you need bottles of champagne to be pulled out and then you're asking questions on who is going to fund the losses of Kingfisher and the prime minister is saying we have a responsibility towards Mr Vijay Malia's Airline while you are sipping taxpayer paid champagne having a ball asking a prime minister why he's not funding Kingfisher and then coming and writing articles about it not once asking about whether this is state sponsored corruption so you know I'm just giving one example that one question to Manmohan Singh that was asked you should go back in the Ani archives and see his answer yeah I was and I pinched myself that I was a prime minister promising committed taxpayer revenues to save a struggling Airline yeah right and an airline that was had proximity at that point of time Vijay mallya was very close now the Congress establishment so what did that proximity Serve the People of this country ask a counter question way before we came and we changed the narrative over the last 10 years because for 60 years before us before I was an editor this proximity that journalists and editors and media organizations had with governments what good did it do to the people of this country it got them nothing it is the greatest disservice in the name of proximity now the same people who were used to that level of proximity are now complaining that the government is not giving us access is it the government's job to give access to journalists when necessary yes if you if you're if you're unveiling a light combat helicopter yes but why on a daily day-to-day basis do you need proximity to Ministry of Commerce Ministry of Finance Ministry of corporate Affairs Ministry of Railways defense I ask you Smita I was horrified the beat reporters would only be there to get jobs done to a point to which ishan yeah I'm telling you and you should share this with I thought I'll quit the profession the levels of proximity I saw proximity at all levels proximity to a joint security proximity to a minister proximity to a prime minister it was something to actually in the in the 2000s it was something to be proud of hmm not be ashamed about not connections it was so disgusted so rotten so rotten so rotten please don't remind me about it but I feel answer to the question is I think this is great right now the journalists are being told you do your job you fund your bills you find the hotel to stay in New York if you want to if you want to sip the champagne you do you pay for your flight tickets it's very good so I think this distance is very good very very good what does arnab do to let off steam you said it is your debate but you know everybody has something or the other music Cricket something Sports Gym what do you do I walk I walk a lot and and music all the time all the time the only time I'm listening to music is when I'm on the move word music do you listen I listen to everything except guzzles everything guzzles sort of make me very if we slow me down a lot and so I listen to Everything I listen to soft rock I listen to uh I listen to Sufi I listen to everything my generation present generation every generation 50s the whole Jazz anything that makes you that gives you that sense of balance that one needs I you know the reason I'm asking is I remember that one incident when this stand-up artist came and harassed you on the on the flight and you just did not react you just sat and I was like you will SWAT it anybody will SWAT it and you just sat there without reacting at all how did you get that equanimity because I was watching a very interesting film called two popes that was a lovely i i i i i i i i who the actors there in that film um I'm forgetting it too absolutely I know so I had never watched a film in which two performers hold the film throughout and I never get the time to watch a film and if you're very honest very often people want to interact with me on the flight so the first thing I do is put on my headphones and I watch a film it also allows me to introspect so I had just begun watching a film and uh I don't I don't recognize the individual you are speaking about I thought there was a condition the individual had and and I felt that it is not my job it is the job of the security people there to do it and I finally thought he was shouting at someone else and and truly to be very honest with you I had my headphones on I like to watch at like if there's a scale of 0 to 100 I watch it about 90 so my volumes are high I cut off and I watch the film I did not realize much about this whole episode till I actually landed because I was on my way I think to interview to interview Yogi for something so I was more focused by the time I reached my hotel I wanted my notes on the interview and through the flight I was watching the film it's only when my reporters told me there was some social media traffic on it and that's the fact the interview it just struck me I have to ask you on this what really put you well we were always on the map but really like solidified it and the other person's political career plummeted was your Rahul Gandhi interview foreign I want to know what you went through what I went through yes I'll tell you after but I I mean the thing is that she sometimes things drag no yeah yeah so I I felt it was dragging because uh because women empowerment it was repetitive and it's not easy as well pardon me it wasn't easy for you I mean I'm just talking as a joke yeah probing them approving the man for an answer and repeating your questions in different iterations I sort of assessed him well in The Green Room before that because he had he had come up very excitedly walking up with me up the staircase telling me about my Wikipedia background and I realized that he was doing research on me and wanted to impress me about how much he knew about me and in the green room then he told me asked me how old I was and I said I'm so I'm this is my age he said oh you're much younger than me and I said yes but I have 19 years of work experience and and I I told him because you know he didn't get it he's just staring at you he didn't get what I was trying to tell him and then in the interview also I don't think he got it and and I I felt uh I mean you have seen the interview now yeah I think he blanked out after some time and the other thing is that you shouldn't try to impress I'm not impressed by any interview or anywhere you know Smitha when I do interviews there is one thing I tell myself that if this is my last conversation with the person so be it I never do an interview in the expectation of a second one you know and that is what I feel you said what should you tell journalism students I tell them this let this be the last one but let me not embarrass my profession by doing it in a way that I would not like the post script of the interview to be read so I think it was a very simple conversation which he could not handle appropriately appropriately and I feel that he and his party should not take it personally after all we are children of Merit we are people who educated ourselves we are worthy citizens of this country we know I am not here to give someone a walk over um they've boycotted your channel and one or two other channels and they they don't come on your debates and it continues they said that because it's it's very personal your attack on them I think that I think there are many people in these parties who want to ingratiate themselves to their bosses by trying to pretend that they are going to be the uh you know the people who will save them from the attack of our Urban Republic and these self-appointed custodians in these parties are the biggest enemies of these parties and they presented with things like that yeah and let me tell you this people aren't quite missing them on TV it's fine people are writing to us to ask them to come yeah so it's okay we don't miss them and and we don't have this we see Smita we don't have anything to gain or lose by a political party coming I have at one point of time been boycotted by all parties when I did the story on 21 parliamentary secretaries being appointed wrongly by the ahmadmi party I was boycotted by them I was boycotted by the BJP when I questioned the late sushma swaraj and you know at that point of time I have highest respect for individuals but I was only doing a story and even a pmo when you asked that question uh during Musharraf visit when you asked that question I mean in the pmo I know I know they said never again will we invite or no it's it's okay they I got I got invited once to a prime minister's press conference in 2011 and that is when I asked uh Manmohan Singh any about the scams and he spoke about the compulsions of Coalition politics so I was looking at it as a reporter I got news points out of all my interviews the interview became a newspoint yeah yeah the interview became a newspoint which was not the intention I was just simply doing a straightforward so so you've been in this rarified air where you were in you've met him and all none I have met him so not a verified air yes yes of the Congress you have interviewed sorry no no just but I I object to the users you've seen him yes right in this sort of new relaunching that they're trying to do with this Bharat jodo and Etc do you think he can I mean he's a credible opposition or can he put up a real fight against the BJP election Machinery now this is a conversation only in lotion's Delhi this whole conversation can the Congress do it can it be done is a conversation that is happening within a 10 to 10 square kilometer area in this city I can assure you that and it is a conversation which is obsessing them and I think that I think that people on in in Delhi media should go out of the city and then experience outside this is not a conversation outside not a composition outside any party any individual can transform themselves but they have to be connected to this country in spirit in spirit not through social media campaigns not through what you call minders we have if we want to have a political party with its 53 year old debutants and 70 75 year old minders good for them they can keep relaunching themselves I have no problem with it but it is not a matter which which I spend too much time thinking about in this country there are so many things to do I totally don't have an opinion on it if you ask you're asking me for my guess no not in this way not in this carefully manicured version anything that is uh that is true is always it comes out as as as Raw anything which is true is not manicured is not well planned it does not need minders if you're true and you're going to be accepted by the people of this country any political leader who rises from the masses will be accepted by the people of India in the future right and anyone who goes through a political finishing school right done by people who've lost themselves will never be successful in this country that is what I am observing I mean I it's not then I need to be right but that's my sense of it country has moved on the country has moved on and people are very aware very aware you know they don't look up anymore to any individual they don't look at anybody as a first family they don't look at anyone having being first among equals anymore there is there is a competitive Spirit which the Prime Minister alluded to in his speech when he spoke about an aspirational country right and aspirational Country will not look up to someone because they are from a family this is my view and I I love that aspirational aspect of India but the narrative in Delhi is still stuck 20 years back they're still asking in 2022 the questions which became irrelevant somewhere around 2006-2007. and this this narrative these people from Delhi that you like to put it their their desperate need for validation from the western western media especially yeah you still see that these desperately people in the power Circles of of old who aren't in in the charm lot anymore you think they still crave that sort of Western sort of yes to what they're doing I have not come enough to this city to feel it trust me I'll do an analysis of this and give you an answer but answer roughly again guesstimate to your very straightforward question is I presume yes I presume yes but but but you know what happens things take time to change there is something called a domino effect there's something called the trickle-down effect things change at the top people tell us corruption goes at the top why does it go at the bottom it will take time because because it will take a whole value system and sometimes that can take half a generation to go through the changes that we brought about in the Indian media around 2010 the fullness of these changes will be evident around 2025. this is my sense of it if it has taken me and people who worked with me a decade and a half to bring about a cyclical change in journalism then as a country it will take equally long it changes in countries economy culture Society ways of thinking media sometimes take a period of time and it will not read one individual or one organization or one political party to do it it will have to be a overall effort so when I when I talk when I when I when I when I look at the country people say you know 20 20 you know 100 years 20 47 I somewhere look around the country 2030 2032 because in my own sense I'm looking at it in terms of generations yeah see I'll tell you a simple answer to your question ishan when people who were born in the cell phone age become the principal wage earners and their families right which means I'm saying people born around 1996 right when they turn 30. say approximately which is about 2026 that is when you'll see the fullness of the change so I'm very optimistic about India 20 25 2026 because you know it's a combination of things and I don't know if I'm communicating this well enough I'm a student of sociology and the reason I tell you is because economic sociology people everything is linked we are going through a digital Revolution yeah you know your generation I'm talking of your generation is fully a digital generation right your approach to life will be very different your responses will be very different right you and but the challenge for for us is to put in your generation the strong values of nationalism and to for you to believe in nation first so when we talk about media when we talk about political parties when we talk about things changing I can equally sit here and tell you oh you know what people in lotians are are cut off are insulated but I'm not saying that I'm making it as a sociological observation that if you come to Delhi five years from now you'll see a change in thinking there are still a lot of people who are living in a sense of nostalgia right they are looking for the return of the past I can understand it is true everywhere in you think that there aren't enough people you know who are for looking for the return of the left in Bengal for example you know there the people look back at the Glory Days and say we associate with that with our good times but I would say that your good times are gone the good times for the people should come what I'm seeing overall is a sense of decentralization in this country right and media Society everything is a reflection of that so there is no easy answer to your question but I I would say that there is going to be a hockey stick change in this country after 2025. by 2030 we'll be living in a different country by 2035 by 2035 this country would truly have been transformed I would say confidently today you will not wait for 2047 to it for India to be a superpower the period of superpower them will come quicker than people expect and you will see it happening quicker as if we have political stability social stability over the next few years this aspirational assertive sort of population that you're talking about they will I mean there will be roadblocks I mean they this is what it is right I I in my opinion the Western media and all that at least some parts of the western media I mean they don't like this assertive India I think over there this is happening and you can see it in the Echo chamber of the say the foreign correspondence Club they have a similar sort of news angle to every story that India comes out of you know so I mean and you have worked with a foreign partner in the past as well we work with a foreign partner too we see it over there I mean how do you look at it you know in this this newspaper called the financial times in London right they did a interview with me as part of this lunch with the Ft series and I had spoken about my aspirations to go Global at that point of time and I found that when they finally published a full page with my interview they presented me as this sort of you know slightly uh right of Center uh you know person who is not very grounded in reality on what can be done and that was because they felt that what I said at that point of time about Indian media Going Global is an impossibility now I tell you today if I say the same thing in London today if I say the same thing in Moscow today that I said in 2013 1415 they would take me more seriously correct and not just true of me Smitha I would say true of a lot of people because India is being taken seriously yeah India is being truly taken seriously and I think that it's very important for the Indian media to go out of the scrabbish mentality of fighting with each other to look about what is the purpose that they want to serve towards the country so I'm I'm very excited that's why I say Smitha that I don't like the sense of bitterness I hate you you hate me oh you are this party that party come on yeah I think we are not serving the country well true so we think we can say we can coexist but we can have different ideas as well of course exactly yes oh on that point thank you so much thank you thank you very much and I wish you and your podcast all the very best thank you and I hope I didn't say anything out of turn no absolutely not it's been very Illuminating and Illuminating yes that is the least thing that people say to me it's been very interesting and we've not quartered we've not fought we've not disagreed on anything in different points of view at times but yeah very interesting uh conversation especially about where media is going where it's headed and an interesting insight as to what you went through in you know during that trying period from 2020 to 2022 and hoping for better times thank you ahead thank you all the best thank you Smith and thank you thank you thank you thank you for watching or listening into Ani podcast with Smitha prakash do rate like or subscribe on whichever Channel you heard this or watched it namaste [Music]

Channel: ANI News

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Id: 6rwylMR4ecc

Length: 113min 59sec (6839 seconds)

Published: Thu Oct 20 2022